Link? And I'd be VERY surprised to learn that this kind of hosting solution was more than a shared hosting environment with some interesting limitations on what you could accomplish and/or had control over.
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New URL Policy Revealed - UOGuide Complies (EA Rejects) [Updated Again, long title]
- Thread starter JC the Builder
- Start date
- Watchers 6
Yeah Galen, I had second thoughts on that after I ran out on some errands but then I thought what the heck, Katy Perry made me do it. *winks*
As for the rest I feel this is just a start but it's a good start!
I honestly love it when people suggest that cheap webhosting solutions are the answer to problems. Not to put too fine a point on it, but unless you've spent time researching hosting solutions, any time you see a hosting service that costs you $8/month for "unlimited" bandwidth, understand that these hosting services are meant specifically for people and organizations that are NOT going to be high traffic websites. They can offer you unlimited bandwidth because they are banking on the fact that even if you host a few downloads, you're not going to be having a huge amount of traffic going at any one time (which is what high-end hosting services use to measure your "bandwidth" -- not your actual measured dispersal of data, but your maximum measured dispersal at any one given time).
This comes straight from the Acceptable Use policy of the webhost you suggest.
What this means, in short, is that if you have a popular website, you're not going to be getting $8/month hosting, because they're not going to support your business-class website.
Can we please stop being armchair servicemasters now?
Why is that absurd? You think Stratics is a "free" service? It's not. They sell ad space to make their revenue to pay for the costs of this site. They ALSO used to sell StraticsPlus accounts to help offset the costs. Instead of doing that, JC and crew have decided to ask for donations.
There's nothing wrong for asking for help. They could just as easily make it a membership site, and then you, me, and the rest of the non-paying public would be denied its content. But then, EA would probably sue them for making money off of their property.
This strange idea that bandwidth is free, that servers grow on trees, and electricity just shocks itself into useful existence is interesting, if not absurd.
There's a shock. Don't you have a few ogres in Despise to go troll?
The only way to see things change is to speak up about them.
And if JC were the only one concerned with the matter, people like me wouldn't even bother replying to it.
CLEARLY there are others besides JC who are concerned with the particular rule.
Jeremy, while I applaud that there's discussion going on, "Ads are bad" is a bit of a stranglehold since guilds often use free hosting or free forum solutions that spawn banner ads.Ok, after several discussions between various folks of higher pay grade than me, we've hashed out the following (and yes, this will be in the FoF as well for wider distribution.)
1. Sites that sell things (any things, not necessarily UO things) for cash are definitely forbidden
2. Requests for donations are fine.
3. Ads are bad. Don't link to sites with ads.
4. Stratics is currently the only exception to #3; however, there may be more in the future. If you have an interest in being an exception, you're welcome to email me and as soon as we have a process I'll let you know what it is.
This doesn't change the whole submit-to-the-FoF process at all. I'm sure you have questions - feel free to ask them now so I can refine the version in the FoF
As for exceptions... There should be no exceptions until there is a policy put in place. Yeah, that includes Stratics.
Finally, I'm going to ask that EA/Mythic finally take a stance on the whole RMT as it is. You are aware that historically, EA was PROUD of the RMT that was going on in relationship to UO, right? So if RMT is going to remain legal, it's a bit silly to say, "But you can't talk about Fight Club."
K
Kyrie_Elaison
Guest
Jeremy,Ok, after several discussions between various folks of higher pay grade than me, we've hashed out the following (and yes, this will be in the FoF as well for wider distribution.)
1. Sites that sell things (any things, not necessarily UO things) for cash are definitely forbidden
2. Requests for donations are fine.
3. Ads are bad. Don't link to sites with ads.
4. Stratics is currently the only exception to #3; however, there may be more in the future. If you have an interest in being an exception, you're welcome to email me and as soon as we have a process I'll let you know what it is.
This doesn't change the whole submit-to-the-FoF process at all. I'm sure you have questions - feel free to ask them now so I can refine the version in the FoF
I just looked at Whispering Rose Radio and noticed that they have removed all of their banner adds. Are the higher ups actively discussing what kind of impact this is going to have on all of these sites (WRR, UOGuide, UOForums, etc?)
The statement "there may be more in the future" wreaks of a canned response to calm the crowd for the time being.
These websites provide a lot of information and updated material that neither UO nor Stratics can seem to keep up with. It would be a massive loss to the player community to lose these sites due to lack of funds.
I move that the higher ups return from their doughnut break and sort this out rather quickly.
Any seconds?
A
AdamD
Guest
It would be nice if EA did sponsor UO fansites, as that'd reduce the need for other funding, but I don't think they can or will do that.
I am grateful for the donation change and the upcoming vetting of possible fansites to add to an exclusion list.
I just hope this list and vetting procedure is created sooner, rather than later.
I am grateful for the donation change and the upcoming vetting of possible fansites to add to an exclusion list.
I just hope this list and vetting procedure is created sooner, rather than later.
K
Kyrie_Elaison
Guest
http://order.1and1.com/xml/order/Hosting;jsessionid=4FBAA825BF66318B0C679688791182EE.TC60a?__frame=_top&__lf=Static
I currently have the $9.99 business package. I have 3 web sites, including http://www.fightingphantoms.com. I have been with 1and1 for about 5 years now, and they are awesome to work with. Plus you get a huge package of free software when you sign up (you have to pay a small fee for the software if you want them to send you discs, otherwise it's free downloads.)
Jeremy promised something about the URL bans in the FoF but I don't see anything.
It should be in the patch message anyway. This is a major issue.
It should be in the patch message anyway. This is a major issue.
R
Richtor Darkbane
Guest
Ok end of story, so if you have nothing else constructive to add then end the story, instead of begging for a lock exercise your right to not read or reply to this thread anymore. Many people are finding this to be a very productive thread for discussing the future for fansites and policy, if your not then why keep coming back?
Obviously if this thread generated this much discussion and response speaks for itself.
Back on topic:
Can we discuss why non-intrusive optional donations are a bad thing? I understand the 'ads' part, but the donation button is whats bothering me. As long as you are not forcing users to donate to use the site, whats the big deal?
EDIT: Nevermind, I started this post before Jeremy posted the updated rules... so disreguard, policy looks good so far!
I usually give people a hard time about advertising their crap in-game or on a forum but I really like uoguide.com. Seems like the dev's like it too.
If everyone from here spent a little less time trolling and a little more time contributing to UOGuide the site would be really great.
If everyone from here spent a little less time trolling and a little more time contributing to UOGuide the site would be really great.
I agree with regarding UOforums.
But UOguide's page hits would be a fraction of UOforums. Also there are some wikis that do not require a database, so effectively it is almost the same as a simple html website.
If you are not breaking even, you cut your costs. The $1 per month hosting may not be as good, but it also may be just as good or even better. Both are shared hosting after all.
K
Kyrie_Elaison
Guest
I think UOGuide is already a great site, and can only get greater. I'm sure, as things get complete, that Stratics will be more than happy to add all the hard work from UOGuide to their website. Of course you will need to be a plus member to gain access to that though.
I know being so sarcastic doesn't help this situation, but I'm concerned that this situation could really hurt the sites that I rely on.
It's not right that Stratics can spam advertising but other sites that rely on that for their money base can't. I personally feel that these other sites, being mentioned above, have added more content and kept more up to date than Stratics or even the main UO site have by a looooooooong way.
Honestly, what's to stop someone from Stratics just jumping over to UOGuide and snatching up all the information and putting it on their site?
Hopefully some discussion is going on behind the scenes, because I don't feel that the last post by Jeremy was actually any kind of a fix, but it seemed to have some sort of a quieting affect on the crowd.
Basara
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Uh, NO.....
I'm surprised Stratics higher-ups haven't responded to this yet, as this the umpteenth time something that is old news has been brought up that is no longer the case. Stratics Plus has been defunct for a considerably long time (and all the infor on getting it has been long gone). The only people that can use Plus features on the main board are those with active "plus" cookies - and I'm not sure how many of those cookies, if any, survived the server restoration - I know mine didn't.
I'll yell at one of the Stratics admins to explain this (again).
C
concernedplayer
Guest
Let me get this straight what you are saying ...
There are 2 different sets of rules. There are in-game rules and out-of-game rules.
In game, you can't tell anyone about any website except stratics, or a website that has no marketing, links, method to make money of any kind.
Out of game, fan sites can get listed in the FoF because you will peruse their website ahead of time to make sure they're "safe".
My question is, when you do that perusing for the sole purpose of the FoF, are you looking for ads or links or any methods to make money and using that as a basis whether or not to add them to the FoF? Or is that ok since they're not being advertised directly in game and this no-making-money issue is only an in-game problem and not a FoF problem?
Wow...I've been quiet until nowI think UOGuide is already a great site, and can only get greater. I'm sure, as things get complete, that Stratics will be more than happy to add all the hard work from UOGuide to their website. Of course you will need to be a plus member to gain access to that though.
I know being so sarcastic doesn't help this situation, but I'm concerned that this situation could really hurt the sites that I rely on.
It's not right that Stratics can spam advertising but other sites that rely on that for their money base can't. I personally feel that these other sites, being mentioned above, have added more content and kept more up to date than Stratics or even the main UO site have by a looooooooong way.
Honestly, what's to stop someone from Stratics just jumping over to UOGuide and snatching up all the information and putting it on their site?
Hopefully some discussion is going on behind the scenes, because I don't feel that the last post by Jeremy was actually any kind of a fix, but it seemed to have some sort of a quieting affect on the crowd.
Firstly, UO Stratics doesn't steal the work of other websites...if that was the case, would we be so ****ing outdated? I mean really....
Regarding 'spam', I've instructed the staff here not to abuse or otherwise misuse the fact that we sometimes use a link to news posts etc here. If I find this *is* being misused, I'll deal with it I assure you.
'Plus' hasn't existed for a lonnnng time now, and won't be making a comeback. Some other sites may charge you for the 'cool content' but UO Stratics won't be any time soon - that I promise.
So...I share your frustration on some levels for sure, but please do get your facts straight and redirect your sarcasm into something a bit more productive...cuz with all due respect it indeed doesn't help this situation
L
love2winalot
Guest
What a total waste of time and resources. For every person who will see a url or web site in the game, there are 99 who will find that same url or site using google. Buy Google then you will have a made a change.
The only reason any of these other sites even exist is because they have information about the game that UO does not have on it's own site.
The only reason any of these other sites even exist is because they have information about the game that UO does not have on it's own site.
Tell me Jeremy how I'm supposed to promote my guild and get new recruits if I can't tell them my icq and I can't send them to my guild website???????
This is all stupid..... there I said it..... GET SERIOUS..... really this is like a witch hunt in Salem..... For crying out loud can't we just play the stinking game without worrying about "big brother" looking over our shoulder and some punk getting us banned for the dumbest stuff????????
I mean seriously..... WTF....... and as for ads on stuff..... Go download Mozilla Firefox and get the add-on AD BLOCK..... that solves all the trouble and no one will go to a website and see any pesky ads at all..... and for the love of pete can we just play the freaking game.
This is all stupid..... there I said it..... GET SERIOUS..... really this is like a witch hunt in Salem..... For crying out loud can't we just play the stinking game without worrying about "big brother" looking over our shoulder and some punk getting us banned for the dumbest stuff????????
I mean seriously..... WTF....... and as for ads on stuff..... Go download Mozilla Firefox and get the add-on AD BLOCK..... that solves all the trouble and no one will go to a website and see any pesky ads at all..... and for the love of pete can we just play the freaking game.
Basara
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MalagAste:
It doesn't take Jeremy to answer your question.
A: Party potential recruits, then tell them via party chat, the URLs & ICQ. None of this URL BS applies to party chat (or guild, or alliance) - only public advertisement.
Surely, you don't recruit people without PLAYING alongside them first, to make sure they are the proper character for your guild, do you???
Personally, people spamming their recruitment pitches is about as annoying to me as a streetcorner evangelist, JWs going door-to-door, or Moonies at an airport. Unwanted solicitation is unwanted solicitation.....
It doesn't take Jeremy to answer your question.
A: Party potential recruits, then tell them via party chat, the URLs & ICQ. None of this URL BS applies to party chat (or guild, or alliance) - only public advertisement.
Surely, you don't recruit people without PLAYING alongside them first, to make sure they are the proper character for your guild, do you???
Personally, people spamming their recruitment pitches is about as annoying to me as a streetcorner evangelist, JWs going door-to-door, or Moonies at an airport. Unwanted solicitation is unwanted solicitation.....
kelmo
Old and in the way
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Stop making sense... It is unbecoming. Rant damnit!
Actually it does. Someone partied a person in our guild to ask the URL of a specific website. Our guildmate was then suspended later that day for "unsolicited advertising" even though the person asked for the URL.
Nexus
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Tell them to look up the guild on UO.com under the MyUO section, that they can see who all is in the guild there and it will have a link to the guilds website.
Ok since JC made this post and was just on the HOT boards I have a couple of questions.
1) If UO doesn't want any site said ingame that sells items for cash then why on uo.com shows a guild web site that do sell items for real life cash? I just saw 2 posts on a guild web site that had one post gold for sell for real life cash and another one for buying gold.
2) So wouldnt any guild listed on uo.com with those types of posts be in violation of the rules as EA is making now? ( Not saying the guild is at fault but uo.com persay)
To me its a contradiction of these new rules they impose on the community and when uo.com actually gives a player a link to go to these guild web sites sites for pixel items to be sold/bought for real cash. I think Jeremy needs to go ask the higher pay grades about that situation.
1) If UO doesn't want any site said ingame that sells items for cash then why on uo.com shows a guild web site that do sell items for real life cash? I just saw 2 posts on a guild web site that had one post gold for sell for real life cash and another one for buying gold.
2) So wouldnt any guild listed on uo.com with those types of posts be in violation of the rules as EA is making now? ( Not saying the guild is at fault but uo.com persay)
To me its a contradiction of these new rules they impose on the community and when uo.com actually gives a player a link to go to these guild web sites sites for pixel items to be sold/bought for real cash. I think Jeremy needs to go ask the higher pay grades about that situation.
M
Mongo The Dolt
Guest
To be honest it was YOUR CHOICE to start a "fan site" its administration, and costs are purely your responsibility.
I have been able to play this game for eight years without the need for your site, yes it is a good source of information, but not necessary.
As I do recall you have abandoned it at least once in the near past, I personally would never come to rely upon it.
Fitting screen name.
Basara
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No, it doesn't - sounds like someone deliberately took advantage of a GM's ignorance of the rules to grief your guildmate - like the attacks on you, JC?
I'm surprised you failed to see the pattern.
M
Mongo The Dolt
Guest
Do you have something constructive to say, or do you just post personal attacks.
I was merely pointing out a simple fact, that is, no one forced Link, erm JC to create the website, and as such the onus is upon him. I see this thread as another cry for attention.
It is not like he has not done it before.
A
AdamD
Guest
I would recommend searching - http://www.webhostingtalk.com/
Before using any hosting company, especially 1&1.
1&1 tends to get more bad reviews, than good.
C
concernedplayer
Guest
Via likeness of writing style, patterned alternating posts, similar terms of affection used and other obvious and obscure hints, I hereby declare Mongo The Dolt, AmanitaMuscaria and MolaRom as the same person. Originally I was going to say they're all members of the same JC fan club, but the writing style is just too similar.
This comes from a completely impartial perspective, I thought it was funny how JC went on a "this site is illegal! that site is illegal!" accusation spree, especially on uoforums about other sites, and beating it like a dead horse into infinity not too many months ago ... and now the finger is pointed back at his site.
From the sounds of it, JC doesn't need a cry for attention, he has enough from you and your alts.
I'm always going to refer players to uoguide/uoforums/tower of roses/castle and courtyards and the few other player run sites.
They are easier to navigate....easier to find what you need...they give a LOT more information than what I would find on uo.com and uostratics (especially now that we are in the slums area of stratics....stratics was atleast a little bit useful before this move....)
The way I see it if EA can't even keep up with scripters/duping etc even when players page on them and give them the exact location....how are they going to keep up with people refering others to those websites? EA can't afford to ban a lot of people....
The thing that has kept this community alive are the people playing it and providing these resources.... Not to mention the fact that there is an outstanding number of players that won't really be bothered being banned now.... The only thing that has kept me playing uo are the people.....not the content and if they ban me...oh well....I can just keep in touch with them in vent/icq....
They are easier to navigate....easier to find what you need...they give a LOT more information than what I would find on uo.com and uostratics (especially now that we are in the slums area of stratics....stratics was atleast a little bit useful before this move....)
The way I see it if EA can't even keep up with scripters/duping etc even when players page on them and give them the exact location....how are they going to keep up with people refering others to those websites? EA can't afford to ban a lot of people....
The thing that has kept this community alive are the people playing it and providing these resources.... Not to mention the fact that there is an outstanding number of players that won't really be bothered being banned now.... The only thing that has kept me playing uo are the people.....not the content and if they ban me...oh well....I can just keep in touch with them in vent/icq....
T
Tabbitha
Guest
without meaning to sound rude but exactly WHAT would you know about it ?
Have you ever done anything to try help out the playerbase by providing anything out of your own pocket such as a web site ?
The owner of F4g almost lost his home because the site proved to be so successful, he couldnt maintain it free ,and delved so deep into his own pockets it almost made him bankrupt.
Some people do things purely out of the goodness of their own hearts,with no intention of making a profit.
who/and or where exactly would these other sites be out of interest.
T
Tabbitha
Guest
*kettle ...pot *
T
Tabbitha
Guest
Thankyou Jeremy for sticking with this and thrashing it out with the higher ups.
Also thanks to the Stratics Mods for allowing the thread to reach a positive conclusion,despite all the obvious trouble making that went on.
Thanks to all the great ideas and suggestions that were put forward also.
It was a really good topic to debate,that most of the community got behind in a positive way,and made themselves heard enough to effect the change to the policy.
Well done to you all.
THIS is the kind of spirit that keeps UO alive,alive -oh
K
Kyrie_Elaison
Guest
zigzag,
My reference to "spam" was in regards to the advertisement that Stratics is allowed to use. As I write this there is an add for a pirate game spamming at the top of the page. I'm sure that Stratics sells advertising in order to raise money for their site. This is what was just taken from these other sites that are more up to date than Stratics. That was the point I was trying to make.
I love Stratics, and always have. Please don't take my previous statements as a direct attack on Stratics. I know it came across that way, but it was unintended (I can get pretty emotional on topics like this, and then my mouth overloads my you know what.)
The entire point is that EA is allowing two standards here.
Stratics- can advertise
All other sites- can't advertise
Stratics- outdated / but still provides the main player base an official forum
Other sites- trying to keep the game information up to date plus providing other services such as WRR
Stratics shouldn't be the only one allowed to advertise in order to maintain the upkeep of their site (especially when the site isn't being updated as much as these others), and of all the people that should be jumping in and going to bat for these other sites, it should be Stratics. Just my opinion on that one.
I definitely don't think they should take advertising away from Stratics. The whole point here is to try to remedy this by allowing sites like UOGuide, UOForums, and WRR the ability to advertise to raise money for their costs.
If you have been around as long as I have, then you will understand why I took the response that was posted by Jeremy as a canned response.
That statement just stinks of a "here's a cookie, now go sit in the corner and shut up" response.
It's great that they will allow donations, but as JC said people don't like clicking on the donation button.
I just feel that this is an MAJOR issue that should be addressed promptly so as to not have a detrimental affect on those sites that players rely on so much (like me).
Anyone who knows anything about the HOT Guild or Atlantic knows this: we don't go out seeking recruits. People come to us. We have never once said "hey we are looking for people to join, visit our website!" The forum rules specifically state when signing up that you must adhere to the UO Rules of Conduct, of which cash sales of UO items is still allowed. So if someone wants to go to the trading forum on our website and offer something for cash there is nothing wrong with that. We only direct people to our website in-game when they ask about recruitment.
Who said they weren't? It should also be my choice whether I want to put up advertising or even a donation button.
Doesn't anyone see what is really going on here? They are going after the methods of distribution for duped items instead of the dupers themselves. In the process they are taking down websites which already police themselves in keeping the dupers out (UOGuide, UOForums, etc.) People are saying Mythic this and Mythic that, well Mythic apparently has an official fansite program for their upcoming MMO Warhammer Online. They have a listing of fansites, of which many display advertising. This is apparently a UO only policy in response to all the rampant duping recently.
And going by how the dupers distribute their wares right now, what EA is doing won't do jack in stopping them. It is only frustrating and disenchanting many loyal community members who have worked hard for years on their websites.
Nothing wrong with weeding out the pushers.
The Dedicated piggyback money makers will continue as long as its profitable anyway.
Imo, its a small step of progress but its better than no progress.
I should point out the simple fact that this topic began with just a post revealing the new fansite policy and that UOGuide was now in compliance of it. Then Jeremy came in and said no donations allowed. That just crossed the line from being concerned about whatever they are concerned about to dictating what is allowed on websites not within their control. They can then take it out on innocent players in-game, forcing the website to do whatever they want.
Yes and many will adapt and continue to be successful, others will not. That is the way of it.
Except EA was giving special exemption to one website which did not have to "adapt" as you put it. That is unfair, especially when you take into consideration that UOGuide and UOForums did not have advertising to begin with, only taking donations.
Which reminds me of something I missed before. UOGuide was not actually selling items, I was taking donations and giving items as a token of appreciation. The only thing ever sold, the Rift Pillars, all that went back to UOGuide.
Which reminds me of something I missed before. UOGuide was not actually selling items, I was taking donations and giving items as a token of appreciation. The only thing ever sold, the Rift Pillars, all that went back to UOGuide.
I trust and respect" that" website.
You made your own bed in that aspect.
I have seen your site prior to the change.....
No one should have to adapt to this. EA should accommodate. Your suggestion is absurd.
M
Mongo The Dolt
Guest
You could not be more wrong, I have no affiliation with either AmanitaMuscaria nor MolaRom, I am afraid I have to burst your bubble on that one.
The rest of your post though is dead on though.
M
Mongo The Dolt
Guest
The problem with putting adverts on it is it clearly is in violation of the ROC. Possibly EA/Mythic should just appropriate the site, and administer it themselves. This of course assumes that it is actually a necessary resource.
Your whole dupers angle is just a blind grasp in the hay pile looking for that golden needle of absolution.
V
Vyal
Guest
This is the most retarted thing I have plainly ever heard of,
#1 What if you are friended to a house and make a ton of books in red ink with links to porn sites and lock them down in someones house then page on them for having books with links in their house? Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
#2 Why not just make a policy in the UELA to say that links from other sites are not our responsibilty? Like every other mmorpg?
Was this over looked? Did the devs not think something out all the way once again? I think so....
Here is my suggestion you know the guy who owns all the luna houses on every shard? What everyone needs to do is start dropping books with porn links on his stairs and if you are friended for gods sakes lock em down and make sure they are in red ink. Lets get that guy banned!!!
#1 What if you are friended to a house and make a ton of books in red ink with links to porn sites and lock them down in someones house then page on them for having books with links in their house? Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
#2 Why not just make a policy in the UELA to say that links from other sites are not our responsibilty? Like every other mmorpg?
Was this over looked? Did the devs not think something out all the way once again? I think so....
Here is my suggestion you know the guy who owns all the luna houses on every shard? What everyone needs to do is start dropping books with porn links on his stairs and if you are friended for gods sakes lock em down and make sure they are in red ink. Lets get that guy banned!!!
stupid question , if these Fan sites , for exsample offered to promote ingame places shops, player establishments NO RL CASH SELLING , for a monthly fee to make some money for their sites....would that be an option?
I could see that beeing a nice idea, would bring people to the sites to check out whats out there, and the people could make some $$
I could see that beeing a nice idea, would bring people to the sites to check out whats out there, and the people could make some $$
K
Kyrie_Elaison
Guest
Just to add to that, what's to stop someone from marking a ton of runes and putting web addresses on them?
C
Connor_Graham
Guest
If everyone put as much effort into updating Stratics (most of it IS player written info) as has been put into UOguide, not to mention this thread, Stratics would be completely up to date and we wouldn't be having this conversation.