Vamp Form Poll

[manufacturedsoul]

I don't really see this as abuse as you have to sacrifice "some" skill points to get this to work. As it is my Sampire still can't successfully sacred journey as often as i'd like due to me having to trim back my chiv to add necro so I could do this. Plus you have to get the items and recast it everytime you die. There are alot of other things that need a "kick in the nuts" before this. I'd say if anyone needs a "kick in the nuts" it's whoever decided that KR was a good idea. Leave Dexer's alone!

 

[NuSair]

Just because something else is unbalanced, doesn't mean this should stay unbalanced.

There isn't much of anything in this game that I cannot solo with my sampire, and with the recent infusion of duped runics AGAIN, there are just going to be more.

 

[PASmountaindew]

But if you're going to take that tack. Then tamer pets should be booted fom the stable as SOON as they remove their jewelry. Or unbond if their skill goes down.

Likewise, mages shouldn't be able to use the tome of knowledge to raise thier magery to be able to cast higher level spells. I can get almost 40ish? magery bonus from items?

You are still talking about two different situations... When you un-equip the Tome of Lost Knowlage your magery level drops correct? So then if you are using that book to boost magery to cast the higher end spells you got to keep it euquiped otherwise you lose the magery bonus. That is what I think should be done with Necromancy. When when jewel up and cast Vamp Form and then jewel down to equip other jewlry they should drop out of vamp form. And as far as tamers go with their pet stabled and bonding and stuff with jewelry allowing them to do that... Look at how long it takes to work Necromancy up compared to getting to 120 Taming? I can get to 120 Necromancy in about three days of attended macroing and to 120 SS in about 2. It has taken me about 3 years to get to 120 Taming. I also happen to have a Legendary Necro Mage so I know what I am talking about when I mentioned skill capping times for Necromancy and Spirit Speak.

 

[manufacturedsoul]

You are still talking about two different situations... When you un-equip the Tome of Lost Knowlage your magery level drops correct? So then if you are using that book to boost magery to cast the higher end spells you got to keep it euquiped otherwise you lose the magery bonus. That is what I think should be done with Necromancy. When when jewel up and cast Vamp Form and then jewel down to equip other jewlry they should drop out of vamp form. And as far as tamers go with their pet stabled and bonding and stuff with jewelry allowing them to do that... Look at how long it takes to work Necromancy up compared to getting to 120 Taming? I can get to 120 Necromancy in about three days of attended macroing and to 120 SS in about 2. It has taken me about 3 years to get to 120 Taming. I also happen to have a Legendary Necro Mage so I know what I am talking about when I mentioned skill capping times for Necromancy and Spirit Speak.

I think it's pretty obvious to "most" people he ment you can cast summons with a magery book to boost your magery once you do this you can remove the book / jewlery / whatever if you so desire and keep the summons. If the removal of jewlery removed vamp status then by the same token these summons should disappear when magery points dipped below the required amount to cast. Same with the Tamers why should they be allowed to keep pets based on a "fake" level of taming skill. Following this same logic tamers should only be allowed to stable / bond with pets based SOLELY on thier "real" taming skill and if they remove their jewlery animals should unbond instantly.

Lasty and probably the most important fact and most over looked is that Vamp form is the only spell in the game that requires such a high level of minimum skill to perform. By making the spell minimum at 99 necro they essentially created this issue themselves. No other skill has a minimum anywhere near that level and the vamp form trick should remain as is unless the minimum requirement to cast vamp form is brought down in line with other template skills roughly in the 40-50's to "legitly" cast.

Honestly if anything right now needs a "REAL" kick in the nuts it's these insanely powerful greater dragons PERIOD.

 

[Connor_Graham]

u do NOT keep the increased number of stable slots. i lost a pet that way

Yeah, you do. I do it myself, and have been for several years now.

 

[Salty Pete]

Here is an easy fix for vamp form: limit the length of time it lasts to that of a summons.

 

[the 4th man]

I voted leave them the hell alone, and here's why.
I waited damn near six years to make a sexxer, and now that I do, some punk wants to pull the plug on em?.....no.

I say get the mutton head who came up with this idea, and give him or her a good kick in the nuts.

I have a tamer too, so I'm not crying about tamer vs dexxer.....it's all about time and investment.

devs=

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I think they and most people are looking at the wrong thing thats broken with it.

Anyone remember this: Vampiric Embrace -25 fire resist. If this penalty was taken from the (supposed) cap of 70 rather than the amount you have on your suit then there would be a lot less people using it. What is the point of having a cap and a penalty if they do not coincide. That is whats broken with Vamp Form, discussing the items/real skill only aims to nerf the template option or the items.

 

[Wenchkin]

Damage yes, but note that it doesn't say anything about the fact that a Greater Dragon can stand in one spot, never moving, and take on any monster in the game, including most Peerless bosses (more than any Sampire btw) and Doom bosses. A damage balance for them indicates to me that the flame breath damage they do in PvP that has been complained about so much is going to get the change that it needs. That DOESN'T say that Tamers won't be able to do exactly what they do now which is solo every high end creature there is without having to move an inch.

Nor does it say that tamers will have such powerful pets soon, either. Does it? EA will do what appeases the majority, and the majority of posts about tamers are complaints. We will be balanced, a word which generally translates as nerfed, but if it shuts you guys up, it's probably worth that lol. But sitting there getting all bitter that tamers won't be nerfed is crazy - you don't know what's round the corner.

Name one other class that can do that. Not even the best Sampire can. Tamers can do things that no other combination of skills in the game can do, and can do it at a minimal risk, at a minimal skill investment. All I'm asking is that dexxers be able to do what they're supposed to be able to do, and that's tank. That's what warriors are supposed to be doing without having to resort to "twinking", yet that's what it takes to even come close.

Sorry, but to take out a large pet the tamer has to invest some skill in order to have control. You're asking for a spell to function when you put the items on, cast it, then take it off again. That's a wee bit different, no? At least the twink tamer has to keep the jewellery on! I hate twinking in taming with every bone of my body, but there is a difference in twinking pet control and casting vamp form.

Besides, real skill should be more potent than item skill, regardless of whether you want the perks of a necro spell. And why on earth should a hybrid be more powerful than say a pure necromancer or samurai? Surely taking the time to master the appropriate skills and support skills should result in a stronger character? You want that power for your hybrid, yet what about those of us who have more standard templates? Tough luck on us? Pfft.

Wenchy

 

[Wenchkin]

I've read what you have typed about making taming a skill that isn't impossible to work and then basically removing skill items (if they aren't giving any bonuses they become pointless anyways), but the problem with the development team is that they will most likely do one without the other. If they remove the ability to use pets with skill items and don't make it a lot easier to game taming then I will simply not log into UO again. I don't think they really want to **** off all of the sampires and all of the tamers in swoop because then Trammel will be pretty much empty and we all know empty Felucca is already.

That's a rather defeatist view isn't it? If I don't get what I want I'll quit? How would you have coped had we never had skill items to start with? Worked at it, or done something else? If you'd pick the something else option, what's stopping you from doing that now?

When they brought out the change to pet control (not the most recent, before that) my tamer bard suddenly had no control over pets she'd tamed herself with the appropriate real skill. Overnight she couldn't handle pets or bard things she'd voked the night before with ease. Believe me, it was nasty, she was a wreck and I did lose interest with her for a bit. But, I got over it, trained her and changed her template to take up disco too. That's why I've always told folks that it's not such a good idea relying on items for pet control or depending on items to run your template. I know what a broken char feels like, I've retrained several thanks to "balancing" type nerfs, and I'm very glad of soulstones

Wenchy

 

[Sarphus]

I think they and most people are looking at the wrong thing thats broken with it.

Anyone remember this: Vampiric Embrace -25 fire resist. If this penalty was taken from the (supposed) cap of 70 rather than the amount you have on your suit then there would be a lot less people using it. What is the point of having a cap and a penalty if they do not coincide. That is whats broken with Vamp Form, discussing the items/real skill only aims to nerf the template option or the items.

If I understand you, you're suggesting we ruin a high end necro spell rather than fix the abuses behind it?

I'd have to say that's probably the worst suggestion I've seen to fixing this issue. Vamp form takes what, high 90's skill to cast? So it's effectively the highest-level necro spell in UO. Obviously, players are using + skill items or soulstones to go into this form and then removing said items to gain the power of the spell without investing the skill points. Any solution that destroys the ability rather than preventing abuse of the ability is a poor solution.

 

[Sarphus]

Im sorry but to claim Sampires arent over powered is ********.

want proof?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vsK9m6Ed4ao

thats a link to a shimmering done in under 9minutes by a sampire.

Tamers cant even solo a Shimmering... so sit there and try to tell me sampires dont need a "kick in the nuts"

Using +skill items to cast a spell to go into a form then removing jewels to keep the form needs nerf. You remove jewels meaning no longer have the skill for form then Poof no form. If your a tamer and you use jewels to get a pet and take jewels off Poof pet doesnt obey you.

Dexxers are overpowered as it is and theses Sampire templetes are super over powered.

I vote for the "kick in the nuts" to sampires

~Blade

Actually, I've solo'd shimmering probably 20 or so times on a tamer. Tamers can solo shimmering, but it takes a LOT longer than 9 minutes because tamers don't do nearly as much damage as a sampire. It's also considerably harder to do. People who say playing a tamer on high end content is just a matter of putting your pet on something and standing in one place simply don't know what they're talking about.

I play a sampire and a tamer. I tend to use my sampire for big solo monsters because the damage output is considerably higher and the difficulty is considerably lower. Path of least resistance...

 

[Sarphus]

And Sampires can't solo Mel, yet Tamers can.

Last I heard they can. Also there is a video of the same guy soloing the Monstrous Interred Grizzle. This guy can probably solo every peerless. And if you can solo a Peerless doesn't that make you a Peerless? That is by definition an overpowered setup.

Yes, sampires can solo all peerless. The problem with sampires is that a bad sampire can solo a lot of content that isn't intended to be solo'd. The player of that bad sampire will then say "no, they can't do that! And tamers can, because I saw some tamer do that once". Well what about that good sampire that did the same thing?

A lot of what goes into being a top-end sampire is being able to solo the stuff that the low-end sampires will tell you can't be solo'd on a sampire. The reality is that a lot of what goes into being a high-end sampire is gear. The low end sampire won't have the gear required to solo everything, but the high end one will.

I don't consider my sampire a high-end one and I can easily solo Paroxysmus and DH. I am pretty sure that with better gear I could solo pretty much anything.

 

[Sarphus]

Sorry Wrong on this one, There are tamers on LA soloing Shimmering.

i would like to know how cuz being in one of the biggest guilds on LA none of our tamers have solo'ed it and talking to a few friends on other shards none have either so give me a name and screen shoots otherwise it never happened. even with greater dragons tamers get owned if they try to solo a shimmering.

~Blade

Well that's the problem. Better players tend to migrate to smaller guilds, because bigger guilds tend to want to throw large numbers of people at every piece of content. This means the better player that can solo the content has to split his loot with tons of other players.

I've solo'd shimmering effusion several times. If I had to give a ballpark estimate, I'd say I've done it about 20x. That being said, it's much faster to solo it on a dexer. It's not easy to solo it on a tamer. I'm convinced that anyone who says otherwise is talking out their bum.

 

[Lady_Mina]

I think greater dragons are tamer's their reward for having so much patience and time for raising a skill that is just gains so damn slowly.

Why would people want to raise their skill to 120...if you already can control everything with 100.0 skill?

Mares , wyrms , dragon listen perfectly to your commands with only 100.0 skill.

 

[Salty Pete]

My thoughts... Sampire is the most ******** 1337 speak shortcut for a character I have ever seen in text. Please for the love of your god or diety think of something else to call it. With that out of the way; I am training up a new warrior character right now. That character has the necro/paladin/samurai template without the gimpness of the skill item switcheroo described in this thread. From what I am reading this sounds like an obvious exploit (casting the form and then dropping skill level below the ability to recast it). I think there are two easy fixes to this....

1) Simply set a duration of effect on the forms. This way a character would need to use mana and have the skill items equipped to recast. Also this would impact karma for those who also use Chiv.

2) Instantly remove the form once skill level drops below needed to cast.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Nor does it say that tamers will have such powerful pets soon, either. Does it? EA will do what appeases the majority, and the majority of posts about tamers are complaints. We will be balanced, a word which generally translates as nerfed, but if it shuts you guys up, it's probably worth that lol. But sitting there getting all bitter that tamers won't be nerfed is crazy - you don't know what's round the corner.

It says the damage will be looked at, not anything else. The one major advantage that the GD's have is the 900 hp's. If GD's themselves get their attributes nerfed, then they're not going to be much better than a regular dragon. As I said, looking at damage indicates they're going to adjust the fire breath that is overpowered in PvP applications, and not much more than that.

Sorry, but to take out a large pet the tamer has to invest some skill in order to have control. You're asking for a spell to function when you put the items on, cast it, then take it off again. That's a wee bit different, no? At least the twink tamer has to keep the jewellery on! I hate twinking in taming with every bone of my body, but there is a difference in twinking pet control and casting vamp form.

Twinking is twinking. No other class can use an advanced char token, slap some jewels on, then go out and solo a Peerless an hour later after putting a suit together. If that's not a twink abusing items moreso than any other abuse, then there's a severe difference in what we define as twink.

Besides, real skill should be more potent than item skill, regardless of whether you want the perks of a necro spell. And why on earth should a hybrid be more powerful than say a pure necromancer or samurai? Surely taking the time to master the appropriate skills and support skills should result in a stronger character? You want that power for your hybrid, yet what about those of us who have more standard templates? Tough luck on us? Pfft.

Wenchy

There is no such thing as a pure Necro. Necro HAS to be combined with Magery as a casting class, which makes it a hybrid in itself. Vamp form is also rarely used by any caster type. The only players actually making use of the form now ARE the Sampires. Why do you think the most popular skill point split for Necro/SS is 80 Necro/120 SS? It's because 80 is all that's needed because Vamp form can't be used with Magery spells that have garlic as a reg.

The entire debate is moot anyway, as unless a viable alternative is presented that will allow a meleer to actually tank as they should without having to become a "twink" hybrid, the current setup needs to stay in place so meleers aren't put back in cold storage. If that were to happen a lot of players would just quit playing UO and go find something else to play. You can't take without giving something back in return in this particular case.

 

[Sarphus]

775 or less would be more accurate. I don't know where you're getting 900 from. Remember that 35 points are real skill in Necro.

That's not how I abuse the sampire. I don't have any real necro on mine. I just soulstone necro over and go into vamp form. I almost never die, and I have plenty of soulstones to re-vamp if I do die.

Also, I don't think nerfing sampires is going to remove all necro-related abuses. It will just make it take longer for an abuseable dexer template to kill stuff (at least from my experiences). I haven't seen a wraith form template do as much dmg as a sampire can do, but the wraith templates can still kill stuff just as easily.

 

[Violence]

Keep whining and it won't be nerfed. You've done it before, you know it. :loser:

Half the people I see defending this were protesting against Items > Skill. Oh man, this is so funny at times.

Most of you are soooooooooo bi-polar and just don't know it! LOL!

 

[Sarphus]

Well, that makes me feel a little better. I hope that if the time does come that something is decided, that a discussion about it would be encouraged beforehand prior to any changes being made.

Most of what you've said in this thread to this point has been stuff I disagree with, but I certainly agree with this. I think all nerfs should be the product of focus groups and I think all nerfs should come in the same publishes that also bring buffs to enhance and deepen templates.

I would like to see the abuses around vamp form removed, but I would also like to see the devs throw dexers a bone as well. I feel like dexers in general need to have more depth added to them. I think there should be viable "tank builds" that can take tons of punishment, but possibly not heal. I think there should be equally as viable "berzerker" builds that dish out tons of punishment, but can't tank particularly well. There is tons of room for improvement in this area of UO, and I don't think the UO dexer will see its true potential until a focus group has a chance to hash it out.

All this being said, I would like to see all abuses in game mechanics fixed. I like complex game systems. I don't like "end all" characters that don't need any help from anyone else to do anything. I don't like forced cooperation either such as we have with spellweaving. I like diversity

 

[Sarphus]

...
Twinking is twinking. No other class can use an advanced char token, slap some jewels on, then go out and solo a Peerless an hour later after putting a suit together. If that's not a twink abusing items moreso than any other abuse, then there's a severe difference in what we define as twink.
...

Tamers can't do that. If you think they can, do it.

Everything you have said about tamers has shown me that you certainly don't play one.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Tamers can't do that. If you think they can, do it.

Everything you have said about tamers has shown me that you certainly don't play one.

I most certainly do have a tamer. I may generalize in some cases, but the gist of it is certainly true. It's also true that I can go buy an advanced character token right now, slap on jewels and a suit, go tame a GD, spend some time training it, then go solo a peerless with it.

At one time I had a template put together that had 855 total skill points that had all 3 of the taming skills and all 4 of the music skills along with Chiv for healing and removing curses and recalling. It took me all of a few days to get the skills to where I could have taming at 120, vet/lore at 100, and all 4 of the music skills at 120. That was all courtesy of jewels and the talismans & clothing that we now have with those skills on them.

 

[Salty Pete]

I most certainly do have a tamer. I may generalize in some cases, but the gist of it is certainly true. It's also true that I can go buy an advanced character token right now, slap on jewels and a suit, go tame a GD, spend some time training it, then go solo a peerless with it.

At one time I had a template put together that had 855 total skill points that had all 3 of the taming skills and all 4 of the music skills along with Chiv for healing and removing curses and recalling. It took me all of a few days to get the skills to where I could have taming at 120, vet/lore at 100, and all 4 of the music skills at 120. That was all courtesy of jewels and the talismans & clothing that we now have with those skills on them.

You'd need 120 power scrolls, a high end item collection and you'd still have to sink time into training and taming the pet. Not to mention you'd be underskilled as far as keeping the pet healed as well as surviving the hallway trash that might go after you as you fight. Certainly not as simple as "throwing on a suit and jewels" and soloing the peerless.

 

[Connor_Graham]

You'd need 120 power scrolls, a high end item collection and you'd still have to sink time into training and taming the pet. Not to mention you'd be underskilled as far as keeping the pet healed as well as surviving the hallway trash that might go after you as you fight. Certainly not as simple as "throwing on a suit and jewels" and soloing the peerless.

Exactly how long does it take to use a power scroll?

High end items? I didn't say anything a player that just started playing UO today. Just that it can be done, and actually is by quite a few people that play tamers. It's been known for quite a few years that it's possible to create a tamer from a token and slap the jewels on to have instant 120 and able to tame and control the highest level pets.

There are ways around "hallway trash" and besides, there are none in Peerless. There are a couple that have a few addtional creatures added, but they are the same ones that spawn at the same time on each.


This entire tangent has nothing to do with the point at hand though. The point is people are pancakeing about Sampires under the basis that they can solo bosses by using items, yet conveniently leave out the fact that other templates are doing exactly the same thing. Tamers just happen to be the most prevalent, and also just happen to be one of the templates that's been abusing items in a twink manner longer than Sampires have been around.

 

[Nails Warstein]

Vampires, Liches, Wraiths, and ect should be added to the game as NEW UNDEAD RACES. Necromancers can complete quests at a base legendary level in order to become one of them and have their race abilities permanently along with all their weakness including silver aka UNDEAD SLAYER

However as a spell form for temporary use, I think that kind of spell casting ability should be restricted to a new type of a character class, a spell caster called a CHANGLING who can polymorph with the abilities of any current polymorph choice we currently have.

I'll always advocate more diversity in the game with more choices for races, skills, and spells.

 

[Sarphus]

I most certainly do have a tamer. I may generalize in some cases, but the gist of it is certainly true. It's also true that I can go buy an advanced character token right now, slap on jewels and a suit, go tame a GD, spend some time training it, then go solo a peerless with it.

At one time I had a template put together that had 855 total skill points that had all 3 of the taming skills and all 4 of the music skills along with Chiv for healing and removing curses and recalling. It took me all of a few days to get the skills to where I could have taming at 120, vet/lore at 100, and all 4 of the music skills at 120. That was all courtesy of jewels and the talismans & clothing that we now have with those skills on them.

But that's not what you said... what you said was that you could make a char with an adv char token and go solo a peerless. If you truly thought you could do that, you would know nothing of tamers. You can not take a character with the skill levels you have at adv char token and go solo a peerless. At least not that I know of

 

[Wenchkin]

It says the damage will be looked at, not anything else. The one major advantage that the GD's have is the 900 hp's. If GD's themselves get their attributes nerfed, then they're not going to be much better than a regular dragon. As I said, looking at damage indicates they're going to adjust the fire breath that is overpowered in PvP applications, and not much more than that.

Looking at skill + items for other skill has also been mentioned and they certainly didn't just say greater dragons, though they clearly are likely to be changed first. I doubt the firebreath damage would suit many complainers, as the greater would still be a strong tank and firebreath is certainly not the extent of its damage repertoire.

Twinking is twinking. No other class can use an advanced char token, slap some jewels on, then go out and solo a Peerless an hour later after putting a suit together. If that's not a twink abusing items moreso than any other abuse, then there's a severe difference in what we define as twink.

Ok, you have your version of twinking, I have mine. I don't agree with skill + items being used by anyone, nor have I ever been happy with advanced characters. The only difference here is you think your twinking is justified, while I don't think any skill + items should give the same benefit as the real skill would.

There is no such thing as a pure Necro. Necro HAS to be combined with Magery as a casting class, which makes it a hybrid in itself.

A necro needs real skill in necromancy and spiritspeak as base skills. Anything else is optional, magery included. But there is a huge difference between a trained necro investing 120/120 in necro/ss and someone twinking with zero skill in either.

Vamp form is also rarely used by any caster type. The only players actually making use of the form now ARE the Sampires. Why do you think the most popular skill point split for Necro/SS is 80 Necro/120 SS? It's because 80 is all that's needed because Vamp form can't be used with Magery spells that have garlic as a reg.

Nah, my necro uses vamp form without bushido, it's just less effective for her than it is for you, that's all. The power of vamp form should be strongest if a player has real necro skill, supported with spirit speak, regardless of whether you sampires think your hybrids deserve better than the rest of us.

The entire debate is moot anyway, as unless a viable alternative is presented that will allow a meleer to actually tank as they should without having to become a "twink" hybrid, the current setup needs to stay in place so meleers aren't put back in cold storage. If that were to happen a lot of players would just quit playing UO and go find something else to play. You can't take without giving something back in return in this particular case.

I'm sure you're not telling me that sampires are all 1 trick ponies are they? Just because you lose 1 spell, you can't function? In all honesty, if that's the case, maybe you want to think about how the rest of us have been working without that trick all this time. Maybe the other warriors out there might get some love now the powerhouse sampires are off the menu. But as long as it's an option, that won't happen, because sampires will be mentioned whenever anyone asks for warrior love. Enjoy the sampire while it lasts, but I really find it hard to sympathize with you.

Wenchy

 

[Sneaky Que]

Leave dexers alone, but NERF the HELL out of vamp form.

Well maybe not the hell out of it... but just scale its effectiveness via spirit speak and problem is solved.

 

[Masumatek]

Just so it's clear, nerfing vamp form is not the solution. That would be a horrible solution. Real necros should not suffer because of this item bs. The ability to use necro forms with items or soulstones should be nerfed, not vamp form itself.

 

[BardMal]

Keep whining and it won't be nerfed. You've done it before, you know it. :loser:

Half the people I see defending this were protesting against Items > Skill. Oh man, this is so funny at times.

Most of you are soooooooooo bi-polar and just don't know it! LOL!

Post of the week! I lol'd this.

The real funny thing is, they actually have no plans to alter anything about this currently; they spoke about "looking into it" - it's not a priority. I once herd one of the EA employees say, "we figure when a topic gets a lot of whining on U Haul that there may be something more to it, so we tend to scrutinize it harder" - the irony being this thread is more likely to get this "feature" adjusted than it is to "protect" this ability.

If a developer reads all this, gets curious, makes a "sampire" gets on and actually solos Prox, Dreadhorn, or Shimmering; then they might consider some alteration.

The whole "items vs skills" thing, that busted me up. I forgot all about that until you brought it up.

 

[Ender]

I'm gonna say this again, what the **** does it matter to all you whiners if a few people can play a template effectively and remove the need to spend more time getting a group together than actually killing a boss? Does it really hurt you so much that other people like to play by themselves? Or maybe you're just jealous, you've tried a sampire and can't do **** with it.



Bottom line: Play it or don't play it, stop *****ing about it. It's not even useful in PvP, so it has absolutely no effect on other players. People either whine because they're jealous of people who can play it effectively, or because their goal in life is to whine whine whine about everything. Nerf whining.

 

[Erekose]

Nerf whining.

QFT, but this is UHall. You and I both know the whiners rule the roost here. The very vocal 2% of the player base (remember, most players are NOT on Stratics) who whine and whine and whine until they devs get the nerfstick out just to shut them up.

 

[Surgeries]

I most certainly do have a tamer. I may generalize in some cases, but the gist of it is certainly true. It's also true that I can go buy an advanced character token right now, slap on jewels and a suit, go tame a GD, spend some time training it, then go solo a peerless with it.

At one time I had a template put together that had 855 total skill points that had all 3 of the taming skills and all 4 of the music skills along with Chiv for healing and removing curses and recalling. It took me all of a few days to get the skills to where I could have taming at 120, vet/lore at 100, and all 4 of the music skills at 120. That was all courtesy of jewels and the talismans & clothing that we now have with those skills on them.

So...then...go put on all that stuff, go tame a GD, and then go into the Peerless, solo, and pop off all the accouterments that "twinked" you to be able to twink so..

Let's see how long your Dragon listens to you.

That's the point.

It may bond...it may stable...but without the "Skill", whether real or from items, as a tamer, on your character, you are screwed.

But with the current gimp Sampires, they can cast the form with the skill from items, then take them off, and be just fine until someone casts Ward Removal, or they die.

That is Gimp and Twink, IMO.

 

[Connor_Graham]

So...then...go put on all that stuff, go tame a GD, and then go into the Peerless, solo, and pop off all the accouterments that "twinked" you to be able to twink so..

I don't need to take any of it off. That was the original setup of my tamer when it was first created, and all of the items were built into the suit.

 

[Surgeries]

I don't need to take any of it off. That was the original setup of my tamer when it was first created, and all of the items were built into the suit.

You miss the point.

DO take it off.

What happens then?

Gimp Sampires take it off, and NOTHING happens.

They just keep right on soloing, without the skill.

I know as a Tamer you don't need to take it off.

I get that.

But a Gimp Sampire MUST take it off...but they don't lose their abilities. And they should, IMO.

That is my point.

 

[Connor_Graham]

You miss the point.

DO take it off.

What happens then?

Gimp Sampires take it off, and NOTHING happens.

They just keep right on soloing, without the skill.

I know as a Tamer you don't need to take it off.

I get that.

But a Gimp Sampire MUST take it off...but they don't lose their abilities. And they should, IMO.

That is my point.

And meleer's SHOULD be able to tank in high end PvM without it.

But they can't.

That's my point.

Unless they rework meleers so they can actually do what they're supposed to and stand toe to toe and tank, they need to leave it as is. I'm all for a different method to allow meleers to tank that doesn't involve Necro, but all I keep seeing is to nerf it "just because I think so".

That doesn't cut it. Especially when these same people can and do solo the same things they keep saying Sampires shouldn't be able to with another template.

 

[Surgeries]

And meleer's SHOULD be able to tank in high end PvM without it.

But they can't.

That's my point.

Unless they rework meleers so they can actually do what they're supposed to and stand toe to toe and tank, they need to leave it as is. I'm all for a different method to allow meleers to tank that doesn't involve Necro, but all I keep seeing is to nerf it "just because I think so".

That doesn't cut it. Especially when these same people can and do solo the same things they keep saying Sampires shouldn't be able to with another template.

Those people have to keep their items on, Connor. They cannot go in, take the items off, and keep going, using other skills.

What part of that do you not get?

YOU can, on a Gimp Sampire...and that is just plain Lame.

I do not believe that "Sampires" should be nerfed.

Just the kind that can cast the spell, and take their crap off, and keep the benefit.

Just because it is the only way that a Dexxer can solo High End PvM doesn't justify gimpness, IMO.

It may in yours, but it just doesn't in mine.

You can kill Paragon Balrons in PvM. Some say you can't. You aren't able to do that on a Dexxer Swords...just an Archer, right? I mean..."Toe to Toe"...without the Necro stuff...right?

I have seen you tell plenty of people to "Adapt" to be able to kill them. I would have to say the same to you, now.

If you can't toe to toe a Peerless, on a Dexxer, then that needs to be done, by the Devs, for your Dexxer?

I think not.

Use that 120 Tamer, that HAS to keep the items on. That is far preferable, to being able to take the stuff off, IMO. Some templates do have advantages over others, particularly with regard to high end PvM.

But please don't tell us all that they HAVE to leave gimp Sampires alone, until they come up with some other way for Dexxers to Solo DFs and Peerless.

If you don't leave the items on, and still get the benefit...it is lame and gimp, IMO.

 

[Nexus]

Im sorry but to claim Sampires arent over powered is ********.

want proof?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vsK9m6Ed4ao

thats a link to a shimmering done in under 9minutes by a sampire.

Tamers cant even solo a Shimmering... so sit there and try to tell me sampires dont need a "kick in the nuts"

Using +skill items to cast a spell to go into a form then removing jewels to keep the form needs nerf. You remove jewels meaning no longer have the skill for form then Poof no form. If your a tamer and you use jewels to get a pet and take jewels off Poof pet doesnt obey you.

Dexxers are overpowered as it is and theses Sampire templetes are super over powered.

I vote for the "kick in the nuts" to sampires

~Blade

That video is pre-publish 42 and unless I'm mistaken that's where they put in the changes to mana drain for linking special strikes. It's much more difficult now.....

Basically that change was a "kick in the nuts" to many players of the Sampire as it is. Lets not forget the changes to Evasion to stop the PvP Evasion spammers....that hurt Bushido in PvM big time.

And for the record if you've not played and have no intention of playing a Sampire, then how do you know the bonus' and limitations of the template? How is your view even valid when you have no experience directly with that template?

 

[Connor_Graham]

You're missing my point.

Prior to the Sampire template, nerfs to meleers relegated them to mediocre, mid level PvM. No high end PvM was possible without playing a joust fest, which isn't meleeing. It's a run in, hit once, run out and wait to heal, rinse repeat 500 times over the course of 15-20 minutes (for the easier stuff, much longer for harder stuff, and some stuff simply out of the picture altogether), until it was dead. In the same amount of time, any other template would have already moved on to the next creature. Everyone, including you now, is crying GIMP! and NERF!, yet no one is calling for balance.

ONLY, and I repeat ONLY, meleers have to deal with both the melee AND ranged attacks of high end monsters in order to deal damage themselves. With all of the new creatures in the game now, ALL of the high end creatures can deal melee damage that's at least equal to half of an average character's hp's, along with ranged damage (whether magical, fire breath, whatever), all of which can be dealt by the creature in less time than the meleer can actually heal that amount. The Sampire template, specifically Vamp form, allows for the additional damage that only meleers have to deal with to be compensated for. Without something that isn't "gimp" to replace this, meleers will no longer be able to participate in ANY high end content, nevermind Peerless.

Forget about the fact that it's being done for just a second and think about WHY it's being done and WHY it's such a necessity for people that prefer to play meleers over any other template have to resort to this in order to enjoy playing their favorite template if they want to participate in the high end PvM. Basically what all of you are saying is that if we (the meleers) want to participate in high end PvM the ONLY way we're allowed to do so is if we play a Tamer, Archer, or Mage hybrid.

Which brings up the question as to why EVERYONE that plays UO would HAVE to resort to playing ONLY those 3 classes in order to participate in high end PvM?

Where's the balance in that?

That's basically saying it's a waste of time for anyone to even create any other type of character, since those 3 types are the only 3 types that can enjoy everything the game has to offer. As new things are added to the game they only get harder and tougher to fight, not easier. That only pushes the players that enjoy playing a meleer above all other templates farther and farther behind everyone else.

Is it gimp? Sure it is, but until game mechanics are changed or added so that meleers can enjoy the same things that only 3 other classes currently can, it needs to be left alone so those of us that enjoy that template above all others can play the characters we want to play. It's not that you shoudn't have to use some types of characters in some situations and other types in other situations, it's the fact that in NONE of those situations is a meleer equal without being "gimp".

I'm not looking to be king of the hill. I just want to share the view from the top with the character type I enjoy playing the most. Which isn't asking that much I wouldn't think.

 

[Surgeries]

You're missing my point.

Prior to the Sampire template, nerfs to meleers relegated them to mediocre, mid level PvM. No high end PvM was possible without playing a joust fest, which isn't meleeing. It's a run in, hit once, run out and wait to heal, rinse repeat 500 times over the course of 15-20 minutes (for the easier stuff, much longer for harder stuff, and some stuff simply out of the picture altogether), until it was dead. In the same amount of time, any other template would have already moved on to the next creature. Everyone, including you now, is crying GIMP! and NERF!, yet no one is calling for balance.

ONLY, and I repeat ONLY, meleers have to deal with both the melee AND ranged attacks of high end monsters in order to deal damage themselves. With all of the new creatures in the game now, ALL of the high end creatures can deal melee damage that's at least equal to half of an average character's hp's, along with ranged damage (whether magical, fire breath, whatever), all of which can be dealt by the creature in less time than the meleer can actually heal that amount. The Sampire template, specifically Vamp form, allows for the additional damage that only meleers have to deal with to be compensated for. Without something that isn't "gimp" to replace this, meleers will no longer be able to participate in ANY high end content, nevermind Peerless.

Forget about the fact that it's being done for just a second and think about WHY it's being done and WHY it's such a necessity for people that prefer to play meleers over any other template have to resort to this in order to enjoy playing their favorite template if they want to participate in the high end PvM. Basically what all of you are saying is that if we (the meleers) want to participate in high end PvM the ONLY way we're allowed to do so is if we play a Tamer, Archer, or Mage hybrid.

Which brings up the question as to why EVERYONE that plays UO would HAVE to resort to playing ONLY those 3 classes in order to participate in high end PvM?

Where's the balance in that?

That's basically saying it's a waste of time for anyone to even create any other type of character, since those 3 types are the only 3 types that can enjoy everything the game has to offer. As new things are added to the game they only get harder and tougher to fight, not easier. That only pushes the players that enjoy playing a meleer above all other templates farther and farther behind everyone else.

Is it gimp? Sure it is, but until game mechanics are changed or added so that meleers can enjoy the same things that only 3 other classes currently can, it needs to be left alone so those of us that enjoy that template above all others can play the characters we want to play. It's not that you shoudn't have to use some types of characters in some situations and other types in other situations, it's the fact that in NONE of those situations is a meleer equal without being "gimp".

I'm not looking to be king of the hill. I just want to share the view from the top with the character type I enjoy playing the most. Which isn't asking that much I wouldn't think.

Dude...the point is:

Want the benefit? Want to Solo Peerless, with a Sampire?

THEN LEAVE EVERYTHING THAT LETS YOU BE VAMP ON YOUR TOON WHILE YOU FIGHT. THE SAME WAY A TAMER MUST TO CONTROL THE MEATSHIELD THAT ALLOWS IT.

Can't make it much clearer.

Leave it on...you can solo Peerless, as a Sampire.

Take it off, you should lose the form you cast.

It's simple, really...and it's all I am saying.

One more time:

You should NOT be able to stay in Vamp Form, with 35 Skill, or zero skill, on your character,. You SHOULD be able to be in Vamp Form, and fight high end MoBs, as LONG as your skill STAYS at the level that allows it to occur (i.e. whatever the skill required to cast Vamp Form is.

That IS my Point.

 

[Connor_Graham]

And you completely ignored mine. The template doesn't allow 99 Necro. It's a squeeze to get 35 on. It's not even about being able to solo Peerless.

 

[BardMal]

Forget about the fact that it's being done for just a second

...
Connor, calm down bro - it is not "a fact" that it is being done; quite the opposite actually.

Read Jeremy's post after I basically misquoted Leurocian as saying something would be done when all he said was more like it would be "looked into".

Jeremy basically says ~ there are no plans to do anything about this at this time ~

When you keep bumping your own obvious one sided opinion post all you do is draw more attention to "the ability to work around the skill cap" by adding and then removing items to cause a skill point stacking ability.

Kudos to you for figuring out how to make your warrior capable of soloing the high end monsters. Relax and enjoy it and understand, the Buddhists proverb that "constant change is here to stay; and attachment to impermanence is the foundation of all suffering".

My 120'd multi year to build tamer can not even seriously consider soloing any of the things your "Sampire" takes down.

One day your "Sampire" will be rendered as my (120'd, multi year to build) bard was long ago: mediocre & unplayably useless compared to other skill sets.

Jeez, it's almost like a right of passage in UO.

 

[Llewen]

Here is what you should do...

Realise that the majority of your player base is about one more frustration away from never logging into the game again and stop doing stuff to frustrate them. Making a string of pointless and unneeded nerfs will cause this game to lose players like crazy, and that is about all that it will accomplish.

I'm just curious what you are basing this statement on? Have you conducted a scientific poll which corroborates your statement here? I very much doubt it. You can speak for yourself, and maybe for a few close friends that you have had many conversations with, beyond that what you have to say means nothing. You have no way of knowing what the "majority of your player base" is thinking and pretending that you do is disingenuous at best...

 

[Stigmatas]

Let me clarify that this wasn't an "announcement" as such - just Leurocian's views on this particular feature/bug. It's not on anyone's schedule and we certainly haven't decided exactly what, if anything, to do about it.

That being said, we always welcome your feedback.

Tell Leurocian I will RoShambo him for it. First, I'll kick him in the nuts, then he can kick me in the nuts. If I win, leave our dexxers alone! I have to go first though.

That was a joke. I really don't wanna kick him in the nuts

But! If he nerfs dexxers without seriously thinking it over about how and why 90% of PVM'ers play tamer/bards, and archers, Ill take his lute out..... Animal House style.

Sorry.

You HAVE to give melee style templates a chance against creatures with Stats and skills off the grid. To not think through how all damage is handed out reeks of nerf. Nerf is lame.

P.S.
10 gold to whoever can name the Star Trek Next Generation episode where they paid homage to Animal House, with Worf smashing Jordy's lute LOL.

 

[Elric_Soban]

...

If they nerf Vamp Form, then THEY all need a kick in the nuts.

This truly idiodic circle of nerfing things only serves to show how inexperienced and generally clueless the team is in terms of balance/multiplayer in general. It needs to stop.

THROW AWAY THE NERF STICK. IT JUST IDENTIFIES YOU AS A "NEWB DEVELOPER". "L33T" DEVELOPERS ADD COUNTERS INSTEAD OF NERFS. LIVE IN THE NOW.

There is nothing wrong with Vamp Form. Never was.

"Hmm, Skill/Ability/Spell A sure does seem effective."
"..Yeah. Maybe we should add a balancing counter to A's opposing skill/ability/spell"..
"..balancing counter? Heck no! Lets just nerf the hell out of A until it's completely useless! To hell with all the time they've spent building it up under false expectations!"

Usefull tips vs Vamp Form:

1) Talisman of Ward Removal will poof someone's vamp form. (a real pissoff to the 45 skill item gimps)
2) Dispel Evil will drain a vamp formed person's mana.
3) Undead slayers hurt vamp form ppl more.

No more thoughtless nerfings. Stop wasting time pissing around in 5 (or so) year old code, and concentrate your efforts where they belong. (KR)

 

[JC the Builder]

But! If he nerfs dexxers without seriously thinking it over about how and why 90% of PVM'ers play tamer/bards, and archers, Ill take his lute out..... Animal House style.

If you don't have the skill you are not supposed to be able to cast the spell. It is that simple.

they nerf Vamp Form, then THEY all need a kick in the nuts.

They are not nerfing it at all, just the ability for players to cast it with almost no Necromancy.

It seems that a lot of people don't understand anymore what is a nerf and what isn't. Any time a bug is fixed or something that clearly isn't intended is taken away it is now called a nerf.

 

[Omnius]

this seems like a highly irrelavent thing to change.

 

[Nexus]

If you don't have the skill you are not supposed to be able to cast the spell. It is that simple.

They are not nerfing it at all, just the ability for players to cast it with almost no Necromancy.

It seems that a lot of people don't understand anymore what is a nerf and what isn't. Any time a bug is fixed or something that clearly isn't intended is taken away it is now called a nerf.

My point on this is that it's being selective....and therefore should not be changed.

If your a Mage/Bard and use Jewels to bump Magery to cast EV's then remove them for Bard skill Jewels for Disco do the EV's Poof? Same thing as what your asking for.

If your the Same Bard/Mage and you swap them back does the Disco on the target instantly abate? Same thing as what your asking for.

If your a Blacksmith and you use a +60 to Craft Exceptional SE armor with a Val Runic do a portion of those pieces of armor become Normal Quality when you de-equip the hammer? Same thing as what your asking for.

The only exception to this are Tamers who need to be proficient to a specific level in Multiple skills to control pets. Outside of that 1 Group all effects from Skill Jewels and other skill modifying items are continuous once the items/jewels are removed. If the "Kick" Vamp Form in the nutz, then rightfully they should do the same to the above examples as it's basis in how it works is exactly the same.

 

[Revenant2]

And you completely ignored mine. The template doesn't allow 99 Necro. It's a squeeze to get 35 on. It's not even about being able to solo Peerless.

I have come to think that some of the people who are participating in this thread are not giving this FACT and all of the implications behind it the consideration it deserves.

(That or they don't give a sh*t).

The vamp form bush dexer who is swapping on jewels and then swapping them off is using Vampiric Embrace in one of the handful of ways that are viable for a dexer that has ANY necro influence to do pvm.

This situation exists because (a) a true necro-dexer template does not work well within the current skill cap and (b) a true necro-dexer temp doesnt build the right kind of damage, it's Chiv that does, and real necro templates would not be expected to carry chiv.

The useful PVM thing about vamp form is the weapon damage creating life leech, and a real necro+spirit speak template does not support the kind of damage to make it work right for the highest-level PVM. It doesn't generate great damage on it's own. The bush+chiv+perfection+tactics+anatomy+str+DI is what makes it work.

Aside from that, for PVM, vamp form could hit the trash. The low level poison immunity and extra regen is nice but it's not what makes the form worth keeping in PVM.

The other way some necros can do quality PVM it is to take wraith form, and you sometimes see more 'pure'-looking templates doing that but they are a minority. That template uses curse wep to effect life leech and the wraith form to pull mana leech, sorta the flip-side of the vamp bush dexer (who does the opposite and sticks to mana leech weapons).

If Vamp form is being called some sort of super-powerful Necromancer form in the literature, and that's what the points value currently assigned to its casting difficulty suggest, those things seem to not represent the real powers and abilities of the form as they apply to templates today. Necromancers don't even use it, that's how 'valuable' it is to the real world necromancer templates.

Some people want to see this interesting niche snatched away from all the people who enjoy it. Some people are citing the UNIMPORTANT means by which it must be cast (due to the dexer template not being able to fit 99 points of necro on) and the UNIMPORTANT fact that some other skill, 'spirit speak', is not required to do it. Vamp form is what it is, you know? Claiming that it 'should' have other requirements just because some other necro spells do is asking for a nerf, not a fix.

What's important is, what works in the overall balance of things, and what are people enjoying? The bush vamp dexers hurt noone (if you don't count the fact that some of the yucky gold farmers run the template, and how's that anyone's fault).

If someone wants to whine about purism of templates and supposed evil of using items in a way that makes Vamp Form actually viable on at least one template, maybe their perspectives are better implemented in, like, WOW, than in UO. UO has a stronger streak to where interesting, varied templates are made to work well.

 

[Revenant2]

1) Talisman of Ward Removal will poof someone's vamp form. (a real pissoff to the 45 skill item gimps)
2) Dispel Evil will drain a vamp formed person's mana.
3) Undead slayers hurt vamp form ppl more.

I don't think these things work in Trammel and the main application here is people doing trammy-type operations. I think they just changed the ward removal tally so it wouldnt work in tram, and the other 2 things presumably don't apply.

I sense some Vamp-resentment here, eh?

I do happen to run one PVP char in vamp form and these things don't really impact me.

Ward remove isnt a big deal because PVP templates do not live-or-die based upon whether they have that vamp on (like the PVM ones do). It's PREFERRED but it's not a showstopper in the middle of a fight with another person. I just keep fighting as normal and put it back on sometime later.

If someone mana drains me I could almost care less, that's what all the MR and meditation are there for.

I've never experienced someone trying to kill me with an undead slayer, I heard they undid that change for PVP. Wraith form was supposed to be suceptible to that too? Maybe archers with mischief makers are the antithesis for wraith form choke point fights! =)