Vamp Form Poll

[Connor_Graham]

With the announcement of the "kick in the nuts" to Vamp form, I felt a poll was in order to get the feel of how the boards view this. My thoughts on the matter are quite clear, as I feel dexxers have been nerfed all to hell over the past few years, and can't survive yet another one that will relegate them back to characters that only get brought out for simple tasks like getting bones to put on vendors. I think a nerf will cause players to quit, which UO really doesn't need at this point in time.

 

[Fluffi]

Errrrr.....


I've been away from UO for a while.

What have they done to Vamp form?

 

[Connor_Graham]

Errrrr.....


I've been away from UO for a while.

What have they done to Vamp form?

They announced at the recent town hall that Vamp form was going to "get a kick in the nuts".

 

[Farsight]

I voted for beefy in other ways.

I play with a sampire, I'm very good with my sampire. However, I don't think it should be mandatory to run one if you want to see certain content without the benifits of "Looking for Group".

On the other hand, when the kick comes, then necromancy will likely have a spell which nobody will want to use, and I don't want that either.

So while I want the kick to come (and I'll be sure to wear a cup), I hope they use some sense in determining where the balance should be. I won't count on it, but I'll hope.

Thinking about it, I think the best (and probably easiest) way to "nerf" the form would be to simply remove the ability to ride horses while in vamp form, but that would do nothing to make the warrior class the tank it should be.

 

[Wenchkin]

With the announcement of the "kick in the nuts" to Vamp form, I felt a poll was in order to get the feel of how the boards view this. My thoughts on the matter are quite clear, as I feel dexxers have been nerfed all to hell over the past few years, and can't survive yet another one that will relegate them back to characters that only get brought out for simple tasks like getting bones to put on vendors. I think a nerf will cause players to quit, which UO really doesn't need at this point in time.

I don't use vamp with my sammy, yet I would still say he's a powerful char. I guess it depends on how much power you think is sufficient or not enough.

I don't have any problem with nerfing "twinking" in this instance. However, I'd suggest that skill + items should be addressed for every skill, not just necromancy. There are other classes which are more in need of this balancing. A tamer has a lot of power if they twink, and I think it's perfectly fair that real skill be essential to control a pet, for example.

Wenchy

 

[Gildar]

I can solo Daemon Berserkers (as well as many other very powerful creatures) with my samurai. I don't use vampire form.

Nobody should be able to solo Daemon Berserkers. Some content in UO should be for groups only (though I feel everything should be obtainable solo... just some of it easier to find in groups-only content).

 

[Piotr]

The only way they should nerf Vamp form, is to only allow real Necromancers to use it.

You should need at least 99 real skill to be able to cast it, not just 45 + jewelry, Midnight Bracers and Bloodwood Spirit. That would keep people from using strange templates that practically make them invulnerable and it wouldn't ruin this wonderful spell.

 

[Chad Sexington]

Where's the option for "Yes, swapping items shouldn't replace skill."

 

[Connor_Graham]

Where's the option for "Yes, swapping items shouldn't replace skill."

That's an entirely different subject. This poll is strictly about the nerf of Vamp form and the effect on dexxers, not skill + items in general.

 

[Connor_Graham]

The only way they should nerf Vamp form, is to only allow real Necromancers to use it.

You should need at least 99 real skill to be able to cast it, not just 45 + jewelry, Midnight Bracers and Bloodwood Spirit. That would keep people from using strange templates that practically make them invulnerable and it wouldn't ruin this wonderful spell.

Then the same would have to be said about every other template that uses skill + items in order to reap the benefits of the higher skill levels. Tamers are a perfect example of that.

 

[Chad Sexington]

That's an entirely different subject. This poll is strictly about the nerf of Vamp form and the effect on dexxers, not skill + items in general.

It's the same subject. That's why they deserve the kick in the nuts. The question is asking why. That's why I think why. The other options don't fit.

 

[mmmbeer]

yay nerf sampires to heck!!!

totatlly tarded that ppl can use items to acquire such a powerful spell

 

[Gildar]

That's an entirely different subject. This poll is strictly about the nerf of Vamp form and the effect on dexxers, not skill + items in general.

Then I'd like to change my vote to the missing option of "No, the ability seems fine right now. Some other things need adjustment, however."

If somebody is expending the 99+ skill points to cast vampiric embrace, and keeping those skill points on their character... then I haven't seen enough evidence to show that it is powerful enough to be nerfed except during a massive overhaul of the entire combat system. It might be more powerful than I think it is, and it might need adjustment... but I haven't seen enough evidence to say it is more powerful than the many, many other things that are "more powerful than they should be, but not so overpowered that they aren't acceptable (despite the preference that they all get nerfed)".

I got the impression from listening to the Town Hall that the "swift kick" was the ability of using vampiric embrace without wasting the skill. The singling out of it sounded much more a "this is probably the worst abuse of this", not a "this needs more adjustment than just the +skill items issue".

 

[Gildar]

Then the same would have to be said about every other template that uses skill + items in order to reap the benefits of the higher skill levels. Tamers are a perfect example of that.

Yes, yes it could be. And should be.
I think +skill items shouldn't let somebody perform any action they couldn't do without the +skill items.
Want to cast vampiric embrace (and keep it active)? Get at least 99 necromancy.
Want to tame and control a dragon? Get 94 taming and 84 lore.

Increase the chance of success, damage output, etc with +skill, but don't give the ability to use it in the first place.

 

[gandolfofaol]

Then the same would have to be said about every other template that uses skill + items in order to reap the benefits of the higher skill levels. Tamers are a perfect example of that.

Yes but if I want the benefits of the higher skill I have to keep wearing the jewelry. For vamp once I cast I can remove jewelry and remain in vamp form. And put on my 2/6 jewels. Hardly seems fair.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Yes but if I want the benefits of the higher skill I have to keep wearing the jewelry.

A Tamer can put on +Skill jewels and increase their stable slots. When they take the jewels off they retain the increased number of stable slots. When they put the jewels on, they can tame AND bond a high level pet. When they take them off, that pet remains tamed AND bonded. These are the specific examples I was speaking of, and are not the only ones, just 2 of the more blatant.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I can solo Daemon Berserkers (as well as many other very powerful creatures) with my samurai. I don't use vampire form.

Nobody should be able to solo Daemon Berserkers. Some content in UO should be for groups only (though I feel everything should be obtainable solo... just some of it easier to find in groups-only content).

Not the thrust of the thread, but just as a quick aside: I agree that some things in the came shouldn't be solo-able, but I don't have a particular problem with daemon berserkers being solo-able.

Peerlesses? Doom bosses? Now you've got me.

However....As a Samurai you can probably solo them without moving an inch. Is that what you mean?

That, I do have a problem with. So if that's what you meant, I agree with you.

-Galen's player

 

[Eslake]

When they impliment systems, they can select which they want actions based on, Real or Displayed skill. There is no more difficulty in one than the other.
They Chose to make stable slots based on your displayed skill, so it isn't an exploit.
(besides, the most you will get from it is 2 slot and you have to be relatively close to having them for it to work)
My own tamer gets +2tame/+3lore from his ring, getting those last 2 slots, leaving 5 for meditation.
So if he just finished tame and lore and put on a +5 meditation ring for the same results, would that be an exploit?


IMO +skill items work fine, but they just made too danged many for some skills. Necromancy and Stealing are the best examples. You can have GM in either for less than 40 real points due to items.

They should have simply restricted each skill to 1 worn item beyond jewlery.
And talimans should be limited to +5s.

As to the pending nerf to sampires. I hope they are simply planning to change the requirement on casting Vamp.
The spell isn't all that powerful by itself. It has penalties for the bonus and IMo they are nicely matched.

The problem is simply that people are able to use it without the requisite skill - all due to the overabundance of skill+ items.

 

[legendsguy]

yay nerf sampires to heck!!!

totatlly tarded that ppl can use items to acquire such a powerful spell

not how i would word it but this is how i feel as well. on second thought, the main problem is that you can cast the vampire form then remove the items and -still- be in vampire form. and that, well, just doesn't make sense.

 

[Mistura]

I voted leave it as is.

I dont understand why people have a problem with something that doesn't effect their style of gameplay. If someone wants to go to the expense of putting together a Sampire, then good luck to them.

When people moan it just smacks of jelousy, because they haven't achieved things that certain people can.

I would understand if vamp form was unbalancing PvP and the complainers were getting owned 24/7 by a near unkillable vamp user, but this isn't the case, it is perfectly useless in PvP as far as I can tell and the main benefit is that it allows people to enjoy doing certain things solo...

..By themselves, as in, not bothering anyone, not harming anyone, just doing their thing, enjoying UO.

Maybe everyone should try and do the same... Live and let live!

 

[Ender]

I've said this before, I'll say it again, if you remove the ability for dexers to solo high-end monsters, nerf the hell out of tamers too, its not just sampires that can solo peerlesses...

 

[Mistura]

yay nerf sampires to heck!!!

totatlly tarded that ppl can use items to acquire such a powerful spell

Intelligent contribution to the debate, well done mmmbeer

 

[BardMal]

Maybe the question should be more like,

"Should chars be able to keep the effects of armor/equipment buffs after they remove the armor/equipment?"

For a second, let's imagine that there were leggings of taming and with them on and some taming jewels one could increase their taming from a low level to high enough to command a greater dragon, but their primary skill template is a pally archer.

Should this char still be able to command their greater dragon after they remove all their armor/equipment buffs for taming to fully equip for archery?

 

[legendsguy]

or how about the talismans of the fey that allow ninjas to transform into new forms. for the cu sidhe form you need 60% ninjitsu; why can't i just put on the talisman, turn into the cu sidhe, then remove the points to a soulstone? (btw, you can't as you will pop out of cu sidhe form)

why should it be different for vampire form? the point is... make every skill able to be used in this manner, or make none. quite simple (and logical too!).

 

[BardMal]

The only way they should nerf Vamp form, is to only allow real Necromancers to use it.

You should need at least 99 real skill to be able to cast it, not just 45 + jewelry, Midnight Bracers and Bloodwood Spirit. That would keep people from using strange templates that practically make them invulnerable and it wouldn't ruin this wonderful spell.

That sounds like an "intelligent fix". I would even go as low as 80 "real". For a char template to use the high end of a "skill effect" the char should have at least a high end "journeyman" level of base skill commitment to that skill set.

 

[Wenchkin]

A Tamer can put on +Skill jewels and increase their stable slots. When they take the jewels off they retain the increased number of stable slots. When they put the jewels on, they can tame AND bond a high level pet. When they take them off, that pet remains tamed AND bonded. These are the specific examples I was speaking of, and are not the only ones, just 2 of the more blatant.

Who says that situation is not going to be changed too? Would you still complain about tamers if they had all the skill + items removed too? It's been said several times that a damage balancing pass is going to be done on pets too, before that gets brought up again. I don't think your arguement is justified by effectively saying "they shouldn't be able to twink, but we should". That may not be what you meant, but that's the impression I got from your post.

Incidentally, while tamers can retain some benefits if they remove jewellery after twinking, they can't retain the vetting or controlling aspects of twinking. I'm not justifying anything, just clarifying why some see a difference between tamers twinking and sampire twinking. There is a difference. A tamer would have to keep wearing said items to maintain the effect, while the sampire doesn't.

Wenchy

 

[Chad Sexington]

I voted leave it as is.

I dont understand why people have a problem with something that doesn't effect their style of gameplay. If someone wants to go to the expense of putting together a Sampire, then good luck to them.

When people moan it just smacks of jelousy, because they haven't achieved things that certain people can.

I would understand if vamp form was unbalancing PvP and the complainers were getting owned 24/7 by a near unkillable vamp user, but this isn't the case, it is perfectly useless in PvP as far as I can tell and the main benefit is that it allows people to enjoy doing certain things solo...

..By themselves, as in, not bothering anyone, not harming anyone, just doing their thing, enjoying UO.

Maybe everyone should try and do the same... Live and let live!

I've never understood this argument.

When you're playing in Trammel, you're talking about "playing against the house." Instead of playing against the people next to you, you're pitting yourself in the world the game creators provided for you. The same thing is true for the person next to you.

Inevitably, you want the playing field to be equal (in UO for in blackjack or whatever game). You're not playing directly against the other players, but you are indirectly getting cheated.

If you were playing blackjack at a casino and the table next to you had 8 aces in their deck, what would you do? It doesn't have anything to do with you either. Whatever you would do, I bet it doesn't have much to do with being jealous.

 

[Connor_Graham]

It's been said several times that a damage balancing pass is going to be done on pets too, before that gets brought up again.

Damage yes, but note that it doesn't say anything about the fact that a Greater Dragon can stand in one spot, never moving, and take on any monster in the game, including most Peerless bosses (more than any Sampire btw) and Doom bosses. A damage balance for them indicates to me that the flame breath damage they do in PvP that has been complained about so much is going to get the change that it needs. That DOESN'T say that Tamers won't be able to do exactly what they do now which is solo every high end creature there is without having to move an inch.

Name one other class that can do that. Not even the best Sampire can. Tamers can do things that no other combination of skills in the game can do, and can do it at a minimal risk, at a minimal skill investment. All I'm asking is that dexxers be able to do what they're supposed to be able to do, and that's tank. That's what warriors are supposed to be doing without having to resort to "twinking", yet that's what it takes to even come close.

 

[Der Rock]

i play my vampire dexxer not often , but it makes fun
there is realy not many fun in uo these days.
so dev´s, let dexxer alone for a while

nerf tamers and mages if u have nothing else to do FOR uo (KR)

 

[JC the Builder]

I don't understand why there isn't a simple option to show support that they should make it so it takes 99 real Necromancy skill to cast and maintain the form. You added a bunch of other useless comments on the end.

 

[Chad Sexington]

I don't understand why there isn't a simple option to show support that they should make it so it takes 99 real Necromancy skill to cast and maintain the form. You added a bunch of other useless comments on the end.

Because he doesn't want, "Yes. Swapping items shouldn't be a replacement for skill." to count? Whatever his reasons, the poll should read:

Do you think vamp form deserves a kick in the nuts?

Option1: Yes.
Option2: No.

Please reply and give reasons for your vote.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Because he doesn't want, "Yes. Swapping items shouldn't be a replacement for skill." to count? Whatever his reasons, the poll should read:

Do you think vamp form deserves a kick in the nuts?

Option1: Yes.
Option2: No.

Please reply and give reasons for your vote.

This option serves just fine for that purpose. There was no intent to do anything other than show a fair representation. In this option the word Sampire should have been in place of dexxer:

"Yes, dexxers are overpowered as compared to other classes."

I made the poll first thing in the morning before I'd finished my first cup of coffee. There's no tin foil hat consipiracy going on...

 

[Connor_Graham]

Ya know, the naysayers keep asking "why should they be able to?".

I'll answer the question with another question:

Why should we have to?

 

[The_Letter_E]

Well. Let's ask the question -

What exactly does VE do for you?
Is it the life leech?
Is the immunity to poisons?
Regen effects?

What?

E

 

[JC the Builder]

This option serves just fine for that purpose. There was no intent to do anything other than show a fair representation. In this option the word Sampire should have been in place of dexxer:

"Yes, dexxers are overpowered as compared to other classes."

I made the poll first thing in the morning before I'd finished my first cup of coffee. There's no tin foil hat consipiracy going on...

The option is not specific enough. Someone might think that this issue needs to be fixed but that warriors are generally not overpowered. You insert a blanket statement which is going to confuse and prevent people from picking it. If someone made a poll about Greater Dragons PVP and the option was "Yes, tamers should be restricted to Trammel", it is the same thing.

 

[Connor_Graham]

The option is not specific enough.

It's plenty specific when you add in the actual poll question to the response.

Yes (vamp form should get a kick in the nuts), sampires (admitted rephrase) are overpowered as compared to other classes.


You're making it intentionally overly difficult when there's no need to be. Get over it already.

 

[The_Letter_E]

Ya didn't answer my question though did you?

E

 

[Uriah Heep]

I voted leave it alone.
Just because it seems like everytime they try to "fix" something, the game gets broke in 2 other places.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Ya didn't answer my question though did you?

E

Sorry, didn't see it the first time around. To answer I'd have to say "all of the above".

 

[Blade_Thugluv]

Im sorry but to claim Sampires arent over powered is ********.

want proof?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vsK9m6Ed4ao

thats a link to a shimmering done in under 9minutes by a sampire.

Tamers cant even solo a Shimmering... so sit there and try to tell me sampires dont need a "kick in the nuts"

Using +skill items to cast a spell to go into a form then removing jewels to keep the form needs nerf. You remove jewels meaning no longer have the skill for form then Poof no form. If your a tamer and you use jewels to get a pet and take jewels off Poof pet doesnt obey you.

Dexxers are overpowered as it is and theses Sampire templetes are super over powered.

I vote for the "kick in the nuts" to sampires

~Blade

 

[Connor_Graham]

thats a link to a shimmering done in under 9minutes by a sampire.

Tamers cant even solo a Shimmering... so sit there and try to tell me sampires dont need a "kick in the nuts"

And Sampires can't solo Mel, yet Tamers can. Tamers can do much more than a Sampire can, and with a hell of a lot less trouble and risk.

Your point?


Anyway, it looks like the overwhelming majority says to leave it the hell alone, which is pretty much what I figured it would be.

 

[The_Letter_E]

First of all let's address a BUNCH of issues:

Immunity -> Doesn't work against peers! Or even most high level mosnters. So I consider it negated.

Regen -> Doesn't do a lot for me. We'll get back to it later.

Life Leech -> I think for most folks this is the real kicker! The more damage you do, the more you heal yourself.


Now...

To Heal you use anat
To Cast MAgery you use Eval
and To Cast Necro you use SS...

Why not make the amount of life you leech based on the spirit speak skill? No SS....No Life Leech, GM SS same as now, 120 SS a smidgen more leech than now. You could even make the chance to resist poison based on the SS skill. MR could also be scaled against the skill.

I think the whole, you can do this or that without the jewelry thing is a very dangerous area to go into. Just make it work like the other skills and required the secondary skill to reap the benifits.

E

 

[PASmountaindew]

The kick that was reffered to was the fact that people use jewelry to get their skill high enough to cast Vampiric Embrace and then take the jewelry off and put other jewelry on for other skill or properties but still get to stay in Vamp Form. What was proposed is that there be a check done that as soon as your skill level drops in whatever skill below the minimum for the spell that you casted like Vamp form that the vamp form be removed till the skill is high enough to cast it. This would require people to either keep the necro jewelry on while in Vamp Form or not use Vamp Form.

 

[JC the Builder]

And Sampires can't solo Mel, yet Tamers can.

Last I heard they can. Also there is a video of the same guy soloing the Monstrous Interred Grizzle. This guy can probably solo every peerless. And if you can solo a Peerless doesn't that make you a Peerless? That is by definition an overpowered setup.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Not without doing something to fix the lack of survivability in tanking that dexxers have without it. No other class other than meleers has to stand and take the physical hits over and over again, with the high end creatures (not even counting ANY of the bosses) regularly hitting for 50+ damage EACH HIT. Then you can add the uninteruptable spellcasting damage to the physical abuse. Unless this gets taken care of where a warrior isn't relegated to hit once then run off screen to heal up 50-60 points of damage, rinse repeat, Vamp form should stay as is.

 

[Pickaxe Pete]

I voted "Yes, but beef them up in another way so they can still tank as dexxers are supposed to be able to."

I use vamp form. BUT, it is a serious pain to have to either run to the bank every time one dies, or to insure an lrc suit and a necro suit and pay for all that upon each death. That is quite an operation to take all of the regular gear off, put all of these things on, cast it (fizzle a lot) and finally get it 5 minutes later, when everyone else can fight right away as soon as they are ressed, and have moved on already, leaving one behind. The tank can't afford to be the slowest guy in the party.

Basically, get rid of this pain-in-the-arse kludge and make it possible to 'easily' tank natively. As it is, most of us get killed in one hit or maybe two vs. anything that matters, while tamers, archers and bards have no difficulties. (My main is a bard.)

Bring back the pure melee avatar!

I wonder if Jeremy has ever tried to tank A Deamon Berserker or even Melissa on her Paladin? Well? She should be able to! Jeremy, are you listening?

My point is that these are the kinds of mobs people are interested in killing. Earth Elementals and Ettins are now passe.

 

[The_Letter_E]

But if you're going to take that tack. Then tamer pets should be booted fom the stable as SOON as they remove their jewelry. Or unbond if their skill goes down.

Likewise, mages shouldn't be able to use the tome of knowledge to raise thier magery to be able to cast higher level spells. I can get almost 40ish? magery bonus from items?

You can't go at it half baked. To be fair and equitable what you do to one must be done to all. It's the same effect.

I think the real issue isn't that they cast the spell. It's the effects the spell grants. And if you're a necro your going to have SS anyways. Otherwise, what's the point?

E

 

[Connor_Graham]

Last I heard they can. Also there is a video of the same guy soloing the Monstrous Interred Grizzle. This guy can probably solo every peerless. And if you can solo a Peerless doesn't that make you a Peerless? That is by definition an overpowered setup.

If you think it's only Vamp form that is soloing peerless, then you're sadly misinformed. And if you think Tamers aren't doing as much, or even more, than a Sampire is, you're also sadly misinformed. Vamp form is just the easier option for most players to go with, along with being more universal as far as what creatures it can handle. The other option runs into costs that most players can't afford, along with not being as useful in as many situations as a Sampire is.

I also note your lack of mention to the fact that Tamers are soloing the Peerless too, along with creatures that Sampires can't even touch, or at least take a hell of a lot longer to kill something a Tamer can take down relatively quickly.

Besides, the point is moot anyway. This thread is a Poll that was created to get the opinion of the players here on Stratics and what they felt should happen, not what your, or even my, personal feelings on the matter are. The poll turned out exactly as I thought it would. If a change is made without some kind of adjustment to the meleer template overall, there are going to be a LOT of ticked off players, and more than a few are going to just plain quit for good.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Likewise, mages shouldn't be able to use the tome of knowledge to raise thier magery to be able to cast higher level spells. I can get almost 40ish? magery bonus from items?

You can get a lot more than 40 points from items.

Tome of Knowledge +15
Crystalline Ring +15
Bracelet +15
Mark of Travesty +15 (not sure on this one but could have sworn I've seen it somewhere)

That's 60 points of Magery skill. And isn't there a talisman or something that gives another +5?

 

[JC the Builder]

If you think it's only Vamp form that is soloing peerless, then you're sadly misinformed.

The guy wasn't in Vampiric Form. He was in wraith form both times. I am saying in general that it is clear that there are overpowered abilities which when combined in certain ways makes an overpowered template. Vampiric Form is one of those abilities because you can cast it with next to no Necromancy.