Trade Window Scamming.. a Warning

[Lady Storm]

Over the last few months I have been on Atlantic and reading the chat text as I work my characters... nothing unusual...
Till this last few weeks.
I didn't quite understand the players explanation of the scam.. till yesterday.

I was on one of my accounts at the time that is not a vendor owner.. and I wanted to sell a 120 scroll and let that account keep the gold. I offered it on chat and a player I had not known asked to go to luna they wanted it.
So far it seemed fine.
Met them in bank.. put in trade the scroll and watched the buyer type in the correct gold amount.
That's when I was about to move the cursor to ok the trade.... I saw the gold line of the trade window fly with different gold amounts none of which was even close to the amount we agreed on.
The gold line changed numbers like a slot machine in vagas!
Without skipping a beat I canceled the trade telling them come to my vendor I was having trade window issues..
The buyer started to bad mouth my character and tell me I was a big looser to not sell them the scroll.
They knew they got caught.

I feel sorry for the guy a few hours after me who this very same person pulled the same thing on them.
I'd love to know how they found this revolving gold line.
For those of you who trade in the bank .... watch out for this.

 

[Cyrah]

Why can't the devs stop this?

 

[Lady Storm]

One would think once you click the ok the gold would be impossible to change... as it would be locked in.
I wonder if this is a feature in the EC we of the CC do not have...
When I say the gold line changed I mean it changed as if you could scroll the damn thing with tons of trade amounts of the past...
Very enlightening and chilling as I have heard many yell of scammers stealing in trade... it now makes perfect sense.

 

[TheGrimReefer]

Most of the trade window problems are from what EC allows people to do. EC users are allowed to copy and paste text. This is how people are erasing 0s or changing amounts so quickly. I have testing the trade scams and there are more then 1. None of them I am allowed to do in CC but as soon as I use EC I can change anything while in trade window, including after someone clicks ok.
The scam where people will delete 0s after you have checked OK tweaks people out as they think they are losing gold where in fact you are receiving the amount YOU checked OK too.

 

[MrMightySmith]

Its really sad that accounts are not being banned for using this exploit and its even sadder the devs have not fixed it yet.....

 

[Khyro]

The scam where people will delete 0s after you have checked OK tweaks people out as they think they are losing gold where in fact you are receiving the amount YOU checked OK too.

This is my experience as well. I primarily use EC and after hearing about this scam for a while now, ran some tests with a guildie who uses CC. If they accept first, yes I can backspace 0's in the gold amount before I hit accept on my end, but the traded amount has always been the amount in the window when the other person hit accept. (So if I type 10,000,000, they hit accept, I backspace a 0 to make it look like 1,000,000 and then hit accept, they still get 10M).

Whether there is an exploit or not, I can't say, but in my testing as long as the person receiving the gold hit accept when the amount was correct, they have received the correct amount in the actual trade.

I think part of what may be going on is someone will enter in 1,000,000, then backspace a 0 and hit accept before the other person hits accept. In this case, they are hoping the other person doesn't double-check the amount before accepting. Yes this is a person scamming the other person by trying to be deceitful, there is no exploiting going on, just immoral behavior.

As to the rotating gold amount in Lady Storm's original post. I do know that if you enter in a gold amount more than you have, it will jump down the amount you do actually have. Maybe they were trying to put more gold than they had in trade and it kept resetting to what they actually had (Which could have been something like 4583432, which is why it looked like random numbers rotating). Maybe they were hoping you wouldn't notice and just hit accept.

I honestly don't believe there is an exploit out there, just shady people doing immoral things to scam people. I've bought a lot from people in trade windows, and I always just wait for them to accept first if they are buying. Never had an issue.

 

[Capt. Lucky]

This is my experience as well. I primarily use EC and after hearing about this scam for a while now, ran some tests with a guildie who uses CC. If they accept first, yes I can backspace 0's in the gold amount before I hit accept on my end, but the traded amount has always been the amount in the window when the other person hit accept. (So if I type 10,000,000, they hit accept, I backspace a 0 to make it look like 1,000,000 and then hit accept, they still get 10M).

Whether there is an exploit or not, I can't say, but in my testing as long as the person receiving the gold hit accept when the amount was correct, they have received the correct amount in the actual trade.

I think part of what may be going on is someone will enter in 1,000,000, then backspace a 0 and hit accept before the other person hits accept. In this case, they are hoping the other person doesn't double-check the amount before accepting. Yes this is a person scamming the other person by trying to be deceitful, there is no exploiting going on, just immoral behavior.

As to the rotating gold amount in Lady Storm's original post. I do know that if you enter in a gold amount more than you have, it will jump down the amount you do actually have. Maybe they were trying to put more gold than they had in trade and it kept resetting to what they actually had (Which could have been something like 4583432, which is why it looked like random numbers rotating). Maybe they were hoping you wouldn't notice and just hit accept.

I honestly don't believe there is an exploit out there, just shady people doing immoral things to scam people. I've bought a lot from people in trade windows, and I always just wait for them to accept first if they are buying. Never had an issue.

You'd think BS would acknowledge this then. They said they couldn't duplicate it. I would think they would say it my appear they changed the price but haven't, along with some more details to avoid the confusion. IMHO I certainly wouldn't click first if I was selling though.

 

[DSC Napa]

If you are selling something: let the gold guy click accept first, every time.

 

[Xavier-Catskills]

This is why I only trade with NPC's

 

[Lady Storm]

Yes its sad they have not stopped this...
And it was not just dropping 0s this was a rapid change of the amounts totally different numbers showed up..

 

[Great DC]

A similar thing was used to crash people in general chat a couple years back. The people were able to save many different lines of text from general chat then when they needed to press comma then paste all 30-40 lines of text at once in general chat. Its only possible in EC and people in EC didn't crash only people in gen chat on CC. But this was reported and got fixed after we caught them in the act. I would assume people are saving all different types of gold amounts in a file the same way and just spamming that button over and over constantly changing the amounts. Funny and sad the lengths people go to over some video game gold. GM's need to get their act together before the remaining players quit.

 

[MalagAste]

Most of the trade window problems are from what EC allows people to do. EC users are allowed to copy and paste text. This is how people are erasing 0s or changing amounts so quickly. I have testing the trade scams and there are more then 1. None of them I am allowed to do in CC but as soon as I use EC I can change anything while in trade window, including after someone clicks ok.
The scam where people will delete 0s after you have checked OK tweaks people out as they think they are losing gold where in fact you are receiving the amount YOU checked OK too.

That would explain everything..... @Kyronix @Bleak and @Misk .....You guys seriously need to use the EC more...

 

[DJAd]

I've only heard about this "scam" on the forums here and luckily not come across it myself in game. It sounds like it's not actually a scam, it's just people not checking the amount before they click accept?

 

[Tjalle]

Ask the devs tonight about it.

REMINDER! Developer M&G TONIGHT ON ATLANTIC

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

I've only heard about this "scam" on the forums here and luckily not come across it myself in game. It sounds like it's not actually a scam, it's just people not checking the amount before they click accept?

huh? changing amount = checking it in ur world?

 

[DJAd]

huh? changing amount = checking it in ur world?

Is the amount being changed AFTER both people have clicked accept?

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

Is the amount being changed AFTER both people have clicked accept?

huh? maybe is language issue.

Definition of CHANGE

"to make different in some particular : alter "

Definition of CHECK

"to compare with a source, original, or authority : verify"

not same word. not same meaning, diff. wordz.

in this case as described by OP, scammer tires 2 quickly alter (change, see above) the amount while the transaction is in process, with intent 2 pay less than was agreed. if that isn't scamming then neither is this (see 1:38 to 2:04).


if there is an innocent explanation 4 this i'll surely listen.

seen lots of times where a dilligent PvMer is said 2b 'scripting' when in reality they're just dedicated. so i'm open.

but then, in OP's story, why did the scammer act that way? why not just go 2 vendor and pay that way?

 

[Lady Storm]

First:
Scroll was put in trade window.
buyer entered correct gold amount.
and hit ok
I was moving cursor to hit ok when he finished entering the price.
buyer then started to shift the gold numbers like a vegas slot machine and on it was not just dropping 0s
They knew they were caught when I dropped the trade window and said let me put on a vendor
DjAd they knew they were scamming... they did it again hours after to some poor guy on a pricy item... again in trade window in luna... So yea NO the seller being me saw him shifting the numbers and stopped before the trade was completed had I hit ok there is no stopping it ....
Momma was not born yesterday, but being in a hurry is part of the equasion if you don't double check the whole thing before you hit the ok your the looser

 

[Dot_Warner]

Like I suggested in the last thread about this: Someone needs to make a video showing how this is done and send it directly to the devs.

 

[Lore]

The only people that make vids probably don't know how and we can't tell them how to do the exploit because of TOS.

 

[Spartan]

Like I suggested in the last thread about this: Someone needs to make a video showing how this is done and send it directly to the devs.

I noted this in the other thread ... get a Dev on TC and do it to them! What better way to prove it exists and is reproducible?

 

[TheGrimReefer]

Like I stated in other posts like this. If someone wants to make a video of this, message me and we will do so. Its time for the Devs to actually do something about this. Hell how long has it been since we started complaining about the commas in prices which still isnt fixed in CC

 

[Drakelord]

If you are selling something: let the gold guy click accept first, every time.

yep

 

[TheGrimReefer]

You can try to do that but its easy to unclick and paste by the time u check OK

 

[Lore]

The real thieving is the PS prices. LOL

 

[Lady Storm]

Nothing none showed up

 

[DJAd]

if you don't double check the whole thing before you hit the ok your the looser

This is the point I was trying to get to. There is not an actual problem with the trade window feature, nobody is losing gold from a bug and can it even be called an exploit? This might be why the devs can't replicate the issue.

The simple solution would be to make sure the person buying clicks accept first.

If people were changing the money amounts AFTER both people have clicked accept it would obviously be a major problem.

With this being said I do agree that maybe there needs to be some tweaks to the trade window system. Maybe a 3-5 second timer before the trade is complete after both people click accept.

They can also add the missing comma for the amounts that has been mentioned before.

It's terrible that people are abusing this but knowing the devs it will probably be ages until they change the system.

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

This is the point I was trying to get to. There is not an actual problem with the trade window feature, nobody is losing gold from a bug and can it even be called an exploit? This might be why the devs can't replicate the issue.

The simple solution would be to make sure the person buying clicks accept first.

If people were changing the money amounts AFTER both people have clicked accept it would obviously be a major problem.

With this being said I do agree that maybe there needs to be some tweaks to the trade window system. Maybe a 3-5 second timer before the trade is complete after both people click accept.

They can also add the missing comma for the amounts that has been mentioned before.

It's terrible that people are abusing this but knowing the devs it will probably be ages until they change the system.

translation: u get skammed is ur fault.
same could be said 4 any exploit, scam, etc.
typical mentality. sad. & expected.

 

[Lady Storm]

DjAd Wrong. This is a EC bug that has been in use for a while now and its getting used by the low lifes who think its great to scam others...
The Buyer is the one who is CHAGNING the gold not the Seller... after the ok is in on their side.
Let's say You are selling an item for 100 mill... you put in trade window and The guy buying it enters in the gold box the 100 mill and hits the ok you look see its there and reach for the ok button... if you didn't pay close attention to the gold line... they been shifting the amount as you hit the ok.... Congratulations you just sold your 100 mill item for what ever the slot machine gold was on the trade window. this is what many have been getting

Now do you understand?

 

[petemage]

DjAd Wrong. This is a EC bug that has been in use for a while now and its getting used by the low lifes who think its great to scam others...
The Buyer is the one who is CHAGNING the gold not the Seller... after the ok is in on their side.
Let's say You are selling an item for 100 mill... you put in trade window and The guy buying it enters in the gold box the 100 mill and hits the ok you look see its there and reach for the ok button... if you didn't pay close attention to the gold line... they been shifting the amount as you hit the ok.... Congratulations you just sold your 100 mill item for what ever the slot machine gold was on the trade window. this is what many have been getting

Now do you understand?

Also, if the server allows it, it is only a matter of time until someone figures to pull that off with other clients than EC...

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

DjAd Wrong. This is a EC bug that has been in use for a while now and its getting used by the low lifes who think its great to scam others...
The Buyer is the one who is CHAGNING the gold not the Seller... after the ok is in on their side.
Let's say You are selling an item for 100 mill... you put in trade window and The guy buying it enters in the gold box the 100 mill and hits the ok you look see its there and reach for the ok button... if you didn't pay close attention to the gold line... they been shifting the amount as you hit the ok.... Congratulations you just sold your 100 mill item for what ever the slot machine gold was on the trade window. this is what many have been getting

Now do you understand?

u r missing his point. it's not that he doesn't understand it's that he wants it this way.

 

[Lady Storm]

oh so your saying he is IN on IT......

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

oh so your saying he is IN on IT......

no -- i've no way 2 know that. therefore i wouldn't say it. (nice try though.)
but he seems 2b like those comedians who see a tragedy happen 2 someone & say it's just "thinning the herd." i think he sees no problem 'cos seller could stop it, like OP did, if he happens 2 notice the scam in progress. therefore is not really scam.
i disagree. a lot.

 

[Lady Kyo]

I feel sorry for the guy a few hours after me who this very same person pulled the same thing on them.
I'd love to know how they found this revolving gold line.
For those of you who trade in the bank .... watch out for this.

...this is exact reason I refuse to sell high valued items via chat and in a trade window. AWAYS always sell via vendor. If its that highly sought after, it won't sit on that vendor for long and you will have minimal vendor fees.
Thankfully, you were paying attention!

 

[Tabby Kapak]

u r missing his point. it's not that he doesn't understand it's that he wants it this way.

That seems rather unfair on DJAd, to paint him as wanting it this way. While we disagree on his first post to not call that a scam, it seems to us he merely was not sure whether the amount of gold on the buyers side changed AFTER the checkbox was ticked. That is key whether it is a bug/exploit or “just” a scam. He asked that in post 16, and the clear answer only came in post 30.

We have also been lucky with our sold PS up til now, so had no idea how exactly it works. Thanks for the warning Lady Storm!

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

That seems rather unfair on DJAd, to paint him as wanting it this way. While we disagree on his first post to not call that a scam, it seems to us he merely was not sure whether the amount of gold on the buyers side changed AFTER the checkbox was ticked. That is key whether it is a bug/exploit or “just” a scam. He asked that in post 16, and the clear answer only came in post 30.

We have also been lucky with our sold PS up til now, so had no idea how exactly it works. Thanks for the warning Lady Storm!

dja was not subtle. the first key quote is here:

I've only heard about this "scam" on the forums here and luckily not come across it myself in game. It sounds like it's not actually a scam, it's just people not checking the amount before they click accept?

note the quotes, in this context is clear indication of sarcasm. also note last sentence: clear victim-blaming. only gets worse from there.

it really wouldn't matter if this occurred after seller clicked ok or not. see the movie clip i posted. if u show one amount then try 2 slyly slip in another, u still r scamming.

but, at any rate, i thought it was clear from the original post that this occurred after ok. the key quote is here:

That's when I was about to move the cursor to ok the trade...

not enough 4 u? try this, which is from POST 3!!! Not 30. 3 is 10 times 30. (EDIT: OOPS MEANT 30 IS 10 TIMES 3.)

One would think once you click the ok the gold would be impossible to change.

but again: is still scam no matter when it's done.

Definition of SCAM

"a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation"

Definition of FRAUD

"intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right " "an act of deceiving or misrepresenting."

 

[celticus]

Let's not beat up on the good doctor. Some of the comments are not very fair at all. He did NOT mean that he likes the scam, or bug. I think he meant that this is really hard to believe with the present game mechanics. But in reality : YES it DID happen, and we have no reason to believe that the OP did not know what they observed/sustained. The change caused by the buyer happened AFTER clicking yes, and it should NOT have happened, and it is not normal mechanics. It is infuriating that there are people in the game that spend the time and effort to discover bugs that will criminally scam other fellow players.
These scammers they have NO SENSE OF HONOR or a sense of conscience. In MHO they also have no b**ls. If t hey did they would invest their time in hunting, and playing an honest UO game. What are we? Little children playing pranks or what?
I hope whoever is doing this s*it should be found and their accounts banned, all of them, including the "good" character accounts, This can be traced to their IP address and should be done.

I think that we ALL here agree that this needs to be looked up by the devs ASAP, before more victims occur.
Also quit beating on one another, get the names of the chars doing this, and email them to the management, with specifics, of name, time of occurrence, and details.

 

[celticus]

Also every player leaves an IP footprint on the database, that can easily be found. By the way that includes us here. Our IP addresses are in a database. It may take a little work but we can link player name, with the time event, to ip addresses. What are the devs waiting for? They should try to fix the bug ASAP.

 

[popps]

If you are selling something: let the gold guy click accept first, every time.

Would that "FIX" this trick ?
After the buyer has clicked on the OK button it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to modify the figure ?

 

[celticus]

Would that "FIX" this trick ?
After the buyer has clicked on the OK button it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to modify the figure ?

Exactly : They should not be able to modify the $ amount they offer. But somehow they do. The OP states that they clicked ok after the buyer clicked ok, and then the $ numbers went crazy..I doubt that the seller clicked ok first. There should also be a final confirmation gump y/n and both should agree for the sale to take place..

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

Let's not beat up on the good doctor. Some of the comments are not very fair at all. He did NOT mean that he likes the scam, or bug. I think he meant that this is really hard to believe with the present game mechanics.

I already have shown the opposite to be the true. See my post above. I had quotes and such. The fact that someone you seem to like would say such a thing may be a bitter pill for you to swallow, but that does not change the plain accuracy of my posts.

I think that we ALL here agree that this needs to be looked up by the devs ASAP, before more victims occur.
Also quit beating on one another, get the names of the chars doing this, and email them to the management, with specifics, of name, time of occurrence, and details.

I agree with the first sentence though I am afraid your friend seemingly does not. He's had plenty of changes to say "you misunderstood me, I did indeed mean what Celticus and others have said, that I just somehow misread the original posters various clear posts, and you're reading me wrong." In which case I'd have no reasonable choice but to stop posting on this point. But he hasn't done that. Not to mention that the ideology I'm attributing to him is actually pretty common in UO and always has been.

And has been an important piece in why these scams don't get fixed: People with that mentality successfully convince the devs that these things shouldn't be fixed because their victims are dumb.

So, yeah.

 

[DSC Napa]

Would that "FIX" this trick ?
After the buyer has clicked on the OK button it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to modify the figure ?

Basically.

I sell a lot of crap on ATL and a few people have attempted to scam me. I would post their names if it were ok to do so.

 

[Lady Storm]

Exactly : They should not be able to modify the $ amount they offer. But somehow they do. The OP states that they clicked ok after the buyer clicked ok, and then the $ numbers went crazy..I doubt that the seller clicked ok first. There should also be a final confirmation gump y/n and both should agree for the sale to take place..

That is a good idea... add in a y/n to the sale/trade.
In answering others...
When you go in a deal with someone and they have the gold in hand and confirm the buy, the seller who has the item offered makes sure the price is correct or object is what they agreed on is all there the buyer ok's the trade.. nothing should be changeable except the option of stopping the sale before the seller enters their ok.
I do agree the change of adding a last step would go far to stop this kind of dealings.
Changing the gold/plat lines: It should not have been able to be done once the ok was selected. This should have locked in the price.

 

[celticus]

Amen...

 

[Theo_GL]

Over the last few months I have been on Atlantic and reading the chat text as I work my characters... nothing unusual...
Till this last few weeks.
I didn't quite understand the players explanation of the scam.. till yesterday.

I was on one of my accounts at the time that is not a vendor owner.. and I wanted to sell a 120 scroll and let that account keep the gold. I offered it on chat and a player I had not known asked to go to luna they wanted it.
So far it seemed fine.
Met them in bank.. put in trade the scroll and watched the buyer type in the correct gold amount.
That's when I was about to move the cursor to ok the trade.... I saw the gold line of the trade window fly with different gold amounts none of which was even close to the amount we agreed on.
The gold line changed numbers like a slot machine in vagas!
Without skipping a beat I canceled the trade telling them come to my vendor I was having trade window issues..
The buyer started to bad mouth my character and tell me I was a big looser to not sell them the scroll.
They knew they got caught.

I feel sorry for the guy a few hours after me who this very same person pulled the same thing on them.
I'd love to know how they found this revolving gold line.
For those of you who trade in the bank .... watch out for this.

This would all be simply fixed with a 3 step verification.

Step 1 - The first person offers their item for trade and clicks OK.
Step 2 - The second person offers their compensation and clicks ok.
Step 3 - The first person has to again verify the transaction or exit it. No chance to for either to change anything on the third step or start over.

This would fix EVERYTHING here.

 

[Lore]

This would all be simply fixed with a 3 step verification.

Step 1 - The first person offers their item for trade and clicks OK.
Step 2 - The second person offers their compensation and clicks ok.
Step 3 - The first person has to again verify the transaction or exit it. No chance to for either to change anything on the third step or start over.

This would fix EVERYTHING here.

Unnecessary... What it should be is if the trade is changed in any way the verification are unmarked. This is how it's always been. The exploit is that people are changing the amount and the agreement is completing before the program does what it has always done.

 

[Archnight]

Like I stated in other posts like this. If someone wants to make a video of this, message me and we will do so. Its time for the Devs to actually do something about this. Hell how long has it been since we started complaining about the commas in prices which still isnt fixed in CC

Like I suggested in the last thread about this: Someone needs to make a video showing how this is done and send it directly to the devs.

Someone has already posted a video of this about a month ago but it had to be taken down as it was in violation of the site rules, I however told the OP to msg the dev's directly and send the video to them. If someone has a way of getting the video to them so this gets fixed, please send me a PM and i'll link the video (unless they already have it that is)

As for a resolution in the meantime, ALWAYS let the player that's paying with gold click first and wait up to a minute before clicking at your end. The people running this scam/exploit will not wait that long before changing the amount

 

[Victim of Siege]

Someone has already posted a video of this about a month ago but it had to be taken down as it was in violation of the site rules, I however told the OP to msg the dev's directly and send the video to them. If someone has a way of getting the video to them so this gets fixed, please send me a PM and i'll link the video (unless they already have it that is)

As for a resolution in the meantime, ALWAYS let the player that's paying with gold click first and wait up to a minute before clicking at your end. The people running this scam/exploit will not wait that long before changing the amount

Have you emailed the video to bleak kyronix or mesanna? seems that would be the thing to do.

 

[Archnight]

Have you emailed the video to bleak kyronix or mesanna? seems that would be the thing to do.

Agreed however it's not always followed up upon... they get alot of spam from others and are quite busy. Now they should have already received this video roughly a month ago however if let's say they haven't or an ex-advisor *wink wink* can get this directly to the proper channel then that's what i'm looking for

 

[Pawain]

Time to call in a real Super Hero! @Larisa