An open letter to Mesanna. RE: auto pet logout

[Mervyn]

I have attempted to raise the issue 2 times at different Meet and Greets and not been given the opportunity to voice my concerns, the paying customers (me) only get to ask 1 question, and I have so far had to waste 2 questions on this issue without receiving correct responses. When i had much better questions i wished to ask. I wished to raise 5 issues with auto pet stabling on log out. And none of these 5 issues have been correctly addressed or responded to.



The ability for pets to be stabled when you log out was designed to prevent pets being lost but is being abused in 5 ways.

1. There are areas in the game such as dungeons in fellucca and champ spawns where summoning pets (with a pet summoning ball) is NOT allowed. Yet this can be bypassed by bringing a pet out of the stables and exploiting the system used to prevent pet loss by travelling to a champ spawn and logging out and back in and thus summoning a pet to an area where pet summoning is not allowed.
2. To summon a pet, to any location should require the use of a pet summoning ball which is charged with powder of translocation (these pet summoning balls hold limited charges) in order to bypass the use of resources, players are exploiting the system used to prevent pet loss by simply logging out and in to summon their pet to their location.
3. When using the hide/stealth skill, especially in fel, a player is able to traverse their pet from A to B without revealing their location. As when hidden/stealthed, if a player uses a pet ball of summoning, this would make the player reveal. I believe this was an intentional feature, however players are able to bypass this by simply logging out and logging in abusing the system that was designed to prevent the loss of pets.
   
4. When you tame a wild creature for the first time, it is not bonded, and so you cannot attach it to a pet ball of summoning as pet balls of summoning can onlybe attached to bonded creatures, i believe this to be an intentional feature. Another intentional feature is that when a player recalls/sacred journeys/help stuck, a non bonded pet will not travel with them. One may argue that part of the game challenge is to get the newly tamed creature to the safety of the stables (or purchase from the uostore a pet bonding potion and bond the pet onsite) However again, players are able to bypass this challenge, and indeed the incentive to purchase a pet bonding potion from the uostore by simply recalling to a stable, then simply logging out/in and abusing the system put in place to prevent pet loss.
5. In both PvP and PvM, players are also abusing the pet log out/in to prevent their pets from dieing, i do not believe this to be within the spirit of the game. The player's character will remain ingame for 5 mins before being logged out for this very reason. One may argue that when the character is logged out, although their pet is saved (which it shouldn't be) the player himself is vulnerable. This is actually not always the case, especially when the player is dead. For example, if i am a tamer and i attack a player with my pet, and the player kills me fair and square, I am then able to continue to allow my pet to attack the player, and then the opposing player will not be able to kill my pet, as if the player attacks the pet, i can simply allow my pet to continue attacking until it is near death then log out and abuse the system designed to prevent pet loss.

Now on these 5 issues, I have suggested a solution which would not compromise the legitimate usage of the system designed to prevent players from losing their pets. And that is, to have the pet remained ingame for 5 mins (as it does when a player logs out, with the exception on logging out in a house/inn) and upon login, the player should have to retrieve the pet from the stables.



This would also give the added bonus of having a pet continue to defend a player during legitimate connection losses.

 

[Slayvite]

You've raised it twice and twice Mesanna has said nothing will be changing with that system.

There is more chance of me getting the REAL Phoenix skin back than pet log-out being changed.

 

[Uvtha]

 

[Parnoc]

Double that Uvtha heh!!

 

[Fridgster]

 

[Riyana]

You are literally the only person I have seen complaining about this. Why do you care so much about other players' pets?

There have been several times that the pet logging feature was the only way I was able to retrieve a pet that took off or vanished for reasons unknown. Your "solution" also sounds like a way to overfill a stable, creating an actual exploit. I say leave it alone.

 

[Larisa]

You are nothing if not dedicated Mervyn.

Don't you recall what she said to you last time? You need to just give it a rest hun...reallly.....nothing is going to change.

Oh and especially now with the pets ghosts getting stuck.....Origin event on Friday and my pet died twice and it's ghost got stuck on the people and mobs....never had THAT happen before!

BUT The only way I could get it to rez....yep...log out.....

Sorry Mervyn but it needs to stay as it is.

 

[Uriah Heep]

I agree. They have fixed way too much stuff that wasn't broken, with ill results.

This isnt broken

 

[Tina Small]

Oh and especially now with the pets ghosts getting stuck.....Origin event on Friday and my pet died twice and it's ghost got stuck on the people and mobs....never had THAT happen before!

This is happening all the time now, Larisa. The pet's ghost doesn't move and doesn't respond and trying to rez it in the middle of all the spawn is just flat out impractical/impossible.

 

[Merlin]

LEAVE PET LOG OUT MECHANICS AS IS.

 

[MisPrinTed LiEs]

We need other issues addressed way before they start thinking about this, sorry but it should be left as is.

 

[Mervyn]

You are literally the only person I have seen complaining about this. Why do you care so much about other players' pets?

There have been several times that the pet logging feature was the only way I was able to retrieve a pet that took off or vanished for reasons unknown. Your "solution" also sounds like a way to overfill a stable, creating an actual exploit. I say leave it alone.

Currently, if you log out when you're dead, your pet does go to the stable, there is no stable overfill exploit achievable from this.

This is happening all the time now, Larisa. The pet's ghost doesn't move and doesn't respond and trying to rez it in the middle of all the spawn is just flat out impractical/impossible.

My solution would not affect this issue, you would still be able to use a pet ball to retrieve your dead pet, or use log out, but it would take 5 mins and you'd then retrieve the pet from the stable.

 

[Faeryl]

Currently, if you log out when you're dead, your pet does go to the stable, there is no stable overfill exploit achievable from this.


My solution would not affect this issue, you would still be able to use a pet ball to retrieve your dead pet, or use log out, but it would take 5 mins and you'd then retrieve the pet from the stable.

To start, I have experienced legit connection losses lasting more than five minutes where my character didn't log due to being attacked, and my pet was the only thing keeping her alive. (Stupid ISP...)

Second, there's a difference between a pet being forced to the stables when a character is dead, as opposed to alive. As a character that is alive can still tame more pets. And then log and force them into the stables. Then log back in and tame again. Then log again and force them to the stables...

And third... you realize how badly this would penalize tamers at things like EM events, right? Events in places such as Ilshenar, where pet summoning balls don't function? If a pet dies, it can't go to the stable. And if it gets stuck or wanders off if the tamer dies, how are we then supposed to find it or really participate/compete with other players without having to leave the event, lose in excess of 5-10 minutes (logging and then having to find our way back) and thus in essence miss a good chunk of the event?

 

[Tina Small]

Mervyn, how often do you currently use a tamer character and if you do, what kind of activities do you use it for? Have you used one recently for something like the Sorcerer's Dungeon content?

 

[Pawain]

Currently, if you log out when you're dead, your pet does go to the stable, there is no stable overfill exploit achievable from this.

Incorrect. You get a message saying your pet cant join you. Get ressed and log out and in again and the pet pops up. This is how mine works in tram. I been dying a lot in sorc dungeon. Never had to go get my pet from stable.

Guess that makes you madder.

 

[Mervyn]

Tina,

I use my tamer to do the roof encounter daily. I regularly use the log/out in exploit on the belfy when my pet gets knocked off. I beleive you're enquiring as to my motive for the fix. I'm a fan of this game. I play it daily, and feel it would be more challenging therefore better if we all couldn't cheat so easily (you get a higher sense of a achievement depending on the difficulty level). I once made a thread complaining about how death is just a debuff,having your pet die upon your death would go a small way to remedying this. Also it would make team play a lot more appealing. I.E rather than solo everything yourself, you'd be encouraged to take a friend with veterinary along to help you.
With regards to killing player's mounts. Most pvpers use VvV mounts, a higher turnover of mounts would encourage players to capture the VvV towns as points are required for the mounts. (Although the issue with the price/effect of essence of courage does need addressing).

 

[Mervyn]

Incorrect. You get a message saying your pet cant join you. Get ressed and log out and in again and the pet pops up. This is how mine works in tram. I been dying a lot in sorc dungeon. Never had to go get my pet from stable.

Guess that makes you madder.

Yes i'm aware of this double log out work around, but the point was, no stable overfill exploit is achieveable.

 

[Khyro]

He's been on about this issue for over 5 years: Logging out to stable or retrieve your pet

Maybe if the team was larger with more resources they could come up with an eloquent solution that appeases all parties (and more importantly, doesn't create all kinds of new bugs from digging into this code). But with their current limited team, I would much rather them spend their time elsewhere.

 

[Fridgster]

He's been on about this issue for over 5 years: Logging out to stable or retrieve your pet

Maybe if the team was larger with more resources they could come up with an eloquent solution that appeases all parties (and more importantly, doesn't create all kinds of new bugs from digging into this code). But with their current limited team, I would much rather them spend their time elsewhere.

Problem is all parties are as follows:

Mervyn
Everyone else

 

[Melchiah]

I really do wish I could drum up as much enthusiasm for an issue like this as Mervyn, but frankly there just aren't enough hours in the day.

Be better off continuing on about missing armour bonuses on the item gumps... oh wait. You do!

 

[MalagAste]

Tina,

I use my tamer to do the roof encounter daily. I regularly use the log/out in exploit on the belfy when my pet gets knocked off. I beleive you're enquiring as to my motive for the fix. I'm a fan of this game. I play it daily, and feel it would be more challenging therefore better if we all couldn't cheat so easily (you get a higher sense of a achievement depending on the difficulty level). I once made a thread complaining about how death is just a debuff,having your pet die upon your death would go a small way to remedying this. Also it would make team play a lot more appealing. I.E rather than solo everything yourself, you'd be encouraged to take a friend with veterinary along to help you.
With regards to killing player's mounts. Most pvpers use VvV mounts, a higher turnover of mounts would encourage players to capture the VvV towns as points are required for the mounts. (Although the issue with the price/effect of essence of courage does need addressing).

Why are you using this method on the Belfry? You know those vines are designed for your pet to "climb" up to join you and if you move just right and tell them to follow you they will climb up them and join you... Not had to log in log out there to get my pet back up on the pedestal.

Times I do use Log in log out are rare... but I do use them. Anymore when pets ghosts seem to move at a snails pace or slower I haven't got all day for it to follow me and sometimes it won't follow me just seems frozen or something... log in log out is the only way to rez the pet and be back at working spawn and such otherwise I'd still be waiting till next week for my pets ghost to come to me and get rezed.

 

[Fridgster]

I really do wish I could drum up as much enthusiasm for an issue like this as Mervyn, but frankly there just aren't enough hours in the day.

Be better off continuing on about missing armour bonuses on the item gumps... oh wait. You do!

You had to bring that up.

 

[Basara]

Why are you using this method on the Belfry? You know those vines are designed for your pet to "climb" up to join you and if you move just right and tell them to follow you they will climb up them and join you... Not had to log in log out there to get my pet back up on the pedestal.

I have yet to see ANY pet that wasn't a flyer (not even ones with wings that don't fly, like Hiryu, Reptalons and Dimes) scale that wall regardless of commands or cajoling. We've tried many mount and non-mount pet types (essentially doing the Belfry and orchard as a group of 6-8 people, to get it done for everyone at once, then breaking up in pairs for the rooms, and later, groups of 2-5 for the roof itself as our schedule permits).

We've only seen the various Dragons, Drakes and Wyrms climb the wall in the belfry.
Everything else refuses to go up the wall (even if following movement commands of the person on the upper level, and that person's drake makes it up easily), without the owner being on top, and logging out and back in (not counting being mounted and using the feather).

 

[MalagAste]

I have yet to see ANY pet that wasn't a flyer (not even ones with wings that don't fly, like Hiryu, Reptalons and Dimes) scale that wall regardless of commands or cajoling. We've tried many mount and non-mount pet types (essentially doing the Belfry and orchard as a group of 6-8 people, to get it done for everyone at once, then breaking up in pairs for the rooms, and later, groups of 2-5 for the roof itself as our schedule permits).

We've only seen the various Dragons, Drakes and Wyrms climb the wall in the belfry.
Everything else refuses to go up the wall (even if following movement commands of the person on the upper level, and that person's drake makes it up easily), without the owner being on top, and logging out and back in (not counting being mounted and using the feather).

Never really had an issue... but I guess I mostly bring dragons or drakes... though I swear I brought my cu once... don't remember him having a problem with the wall though.

 

[Poo]

i can usually see both sides of an argument but this is really a non issue.
i could see it back when pets in PVP actually DID something but now with the nerfing of pets this is so a non issue its not even worth the effort this is taking to type.

seriously.
i put my 5 slot pet on a guild mate the other night and he just sat there taking next to no damage for like 10 minutes.
it was laughable.

there was a time when i would pvp and do factions and with my connection i was limited to using a tamer but now with the pet damage change i wouldn't even consider it.
hell id rather run out risking die'n while retreating then put a pet on someone now.
just for the pure embarrassment of the person stopping to laugh at my pet and its non damage.

and if your using the auto log on the Belfry your doing the Belfry wrong.

 

[Tina Small]

Tina,

I use my tamer to do the roof encounter daily. I regularly use the log/out in exploit on the belfy when my pet gets knocked off. I beleive you're enquiring as to my motive for the fix. I'm a fan of this game. I play it daily, and feel it would be more challenging therefore better if we all couldn't cheat so easily (you get a higher sense of a achievement depending on the difficulty level). I once made a thread complaining about how death is just a debuff,having your pet die upon your death would go a small way to remedying this. Also it would make team play a lot more appealing. I.E rather than solo everything yourself, you'd be encouraged to take a friend with veterinary along to help you.
With regards to killing player's mounts. Most pvpers use VvV mounts, a higher turnover of mounts would encourage players to capture the VvV towns as points are required for the mounts. (Although the issue with the price/effect of essence of courage does need addressing).

I very rarely ever log out to save a pet from dying. Probably haven't done it more than one or two times in the last couple of years until just the last few weeks, when I've had to do it a couple of times while doing the Sorcerer's Dungeon content to retrieve my already-dead pet because it was barely moving through the spawn. As I mentioned earlier, I prefer NOT to log out in that dungeon because when I do, then I have to grab everyone's life bars all over again before re-engaging in the dungeon content. I don't care if my tamers' pets die, because all of my tamers have veterinary skill and can rez them. What I would like to see is more places where a pet summoning ball will work , for pets with magery to be able to teleport again, and/or for pet ghosts to move more quickly.

 

[TheDrAJ]

I wish i had a nickle for every time I lost connection in UO. Now you want me to leave where i am at and go to a stable to get my pet again.
Let's fix some real problems!
LEAVE THIS AS IT IS.

I really think pet damage in pvp should be drastically increased

 

[Pawain]

seriously.
i put my 5 slot pet on a guild mate the other night and he just sat there taking next to no damage for like 10 minutes.
it was laughable.

And the recent nerf was only 20% more reduction. There must really be some lousy PvPers out there that were getting killed by pets.

I have yet to see a post showing a pet killing a player. I saw a video of a pet chasing real fast, but that was it.

But, pets ruined PvP according to them.

 

[Pawain]

and feel it would be more challenging

Then stop using the method. If I feel it is more challenging to fight without armor, why should I ask for your armor to be removed from the game as well?


This sounds like a YOU issue. When they make pets follow a player a lot better then you can bring this up at that time. You cant run in a circle around luna without the pet getting hung on something.

 

[Uvtha]

Why do you care so much about other players' pets?

OCD?

 

[Tyrath]

without receiving correct responses.

Na man you received the correct response, you just didn't like it. Now granted she was a bit over the top rude the second time you pushed it.

 

[Dot_Warner]

An Corp Xen

This poor horse deserves to rest in peace already...

 

[Coco_Zamis_DF]

DFTT

 

[WhiteWitch]

I have attempted to raise the issue 2 times at different Meet and Greets and not been given the opportunity to voice my concerns, the paying customers (me) only get to ask 1 question, and I have so far had to waste 2 questions on this issue without receiving correct responses. When i had much better questions i wished to ask. I wished to raise 5 issues with auto pet stabling on log out. And none of these 5 issues have been correctly addressed or responded to.



The ability for pets to be stabled when you log out was designed to prevent pets being lost but is being abused in 5 ways.

1. There are areas in the game such as dungeons in fellucca and champ spawns where summoning pets (with a pet summoning ball) is NOT allowed. Yet this can be bypassed by bringing a pet out of the stables and exploiting the system used to prevent pet loss by travelling to a champ spawn and logging out and back in and thus summoning a pet to an area where pet summoning is not allowed.
2. To summon a pet, to any location should require the use of a pet summoning ball which is charged with powder of translocation (these pet summoning balls hold limited charges) in order to bypass the use of resources, players are exploiting the system used to prevent pet loss by simply logging out and in to summon their pet to their location.
3. When using the hide/stealth skill, especially in fel, a player is able to traverse their pet from A to B without revealing their location. As when hidden/stealthed, if a player uses a pet ball of summoning, this would make the player reveal. I believe this was an intentional feature, however players are able to bypass this by simply logging out and logging in abusing the system that was designed to prevent the loss of pets.
   
4. When you tame a wild creature for the first time, it is not bonded, and so you cannot attach it to a pet ball of summoning as pet balls of summoning can onlybe attached to bonded creatures, i believe this to be an intentional feature. Another intentional feature is that when a player recalls/sacred journeys/help stuck, a non bonded pet will not travel with them. One may argue that part of the game challenge is to get the newly tamed creature to the safety of the stables (or purchase from the uostore a pet bonding potion and bond the pet onsite) However again, players are able to bypass this challenge, and indeed the incentive to purchase a pet bonding potion from the uostore by simply recalling to a stable, then simply logging out/in and abusing the system put in place to prevent pet loss.
5. In both PvP and PvM, players are also abusing the pet log out/in to prevent their pets from dieing, i do not believe this to be within the spirit of the game. The player's character will remain ingame for 5 mins before being logged out for this very reason. One may argue that when the character is logged out, although their pet is saved (which it shouldn't be) the player himself is vulnerable. This is actually not always the case, especially when the player is dead. For example, if i am a tamer and i attack a player with my pet, and the player kills me fair and square, I am then able to continue to allow my pet to attack the player, and then the opposing player will not be able to kill my pet, as if the player attacks the pet, i can simply allow my pet to continue attacking until it is near death then log out and abuse the system designed to prevent pet loss.

Now on these 5 issues, I have suggested a solution which would not compromise the legitimate usage of the system designed to prevent players from losing their pets. And that is, to have the pet remained ingame for 5 mins (as it does when a player logs out, with the exception on logging out in a house/inn) and upon login, the player should have to retrieve the pet from the stables.



This would also give the added bonus of having a pet continue to defend a player during legitimate connection losses.

I agree with you for the most part, I was out of UO for a while a few years back, when I returned I was using my pet the old fashioned way, dragging it miles through Ilsh etc till someone told me you can just take it from stable, run to where you hunt then relog, and do the same on the way back, this made my life tons easier but it is very obviously an exploit, because its a free super pet ball which gets around "you cannot summon pets to this location".

I have used it in most of the ways you mention, including at VvV when I was fighting a group of other tamers and needed to retreat a lot, I must have used it about 5 times in that match to prevent my pet being killed, in this particular case I could have used a pet ball but this was just more convenient and it was on Seige so I didnt fancy using the resources and giving away a free pet ball if I die.

People are correct in saying "well you arent forced to use the exploit if you dont like it" and I dont use it all the time, maybe partly because in the EC if you relog a few times you risk a crash to desktop at a random vital moment, its just an "I WIN" button is a little difficult to ignore once it exists isnt it, there are numerous other little tricks in UO which we use from time to time which we know are really bugs or "harmless" exploits which once you know, you cannot un-know..

For me personally this exploit breaks the "realism"( or "suspension of disbelief" if you like) of UO, it makes UO pets a bit like those in WoW where pets are basically a "spell", a damage dealing summon that you just whip out of your pocket or put back in, rather than a real seperate animal which you must manage and look after, as such I would prefer the exploit plugged, at least in its ability to be used as a pet summoning ball.

 

[Riyana]

It's not an exploit. It's a bandaid over the wonky way pet follow functions, and removing it without making pet follow more reliable would be a serious detriment to tamers.

 

[Mervyn]

I wish i had a nickle for every time I lost connection in UO. Now you want me to leave where i am at and go to a stable to get my pet again.
Let's fix some real problems!
LEAVE THIS AS IT IS.

I really think pet damage in pvp should be drastically increased

DrAJ, if you had the patience, or should i say... patients to read to the end of my post, i explained this would benefit you:

This would also give the added bonus of having a pet continue to defend a player during legitimate connection losses.

You would not even have to goto the stable if your con loss lasted less than 5 mins.



Some other comments have mentioned how poor the pets are at following, i would ofcourse also welcome an improvement to pet pathfinding.

 

[Flagg]

Leave it as it is. Far too valuable asset due to far too numerous reasons and bugs to be changed.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

Mervyn,

You need to stop going on about this.

It works for the game, and has a lot of benefits.

Currently, you and your guild, are the only ones who benefit from this in PvP.
You physically use it the most - I'm not sure we even used it, we didn't care, I certainly didn't.

It was no issues to get pet ressed at the stables, ask a tamer, or get a new one.
Or I use Ethy Unicorn, or my TB mount, so many options.

It's just a non issue.

 

[Mervyn]

my concerns over this are mostly with PvM, not PvP.

 

[Riyana]

my concerns over this are mostly with PvM, not PvP.

How is this negatively impacting your pvm experience?

 

[Mervyn]

How is this negatively impacting your pvm experience?

As it is making the game less challenging, no need for me to bring a friend to res a pet if i'm using a sampire. The option to cheat and log out to save swampy is there, and too tempting for even me to resist.

 

[Yadd of Legends]

Well, the temptation to just log in a tamer on my second account to rez my sampire and swampie is just too great to ignore - so it really wouldn't inspire me to play with others any more, so nothing gained there, if that's your main argument

 

[Maximus Neximus]

I feel like this is just trolling at this point

 

[Thrakkar]

The option to cheat and log out to save swampy is there, and too tempting for even me to resist.

Is that the first time on these boards, that a player admitted knowingly and willingly in open public, he's a cheater?

 

[Gidge]

I kind of feel that having the opponent get back into action quicker would be a desired thing for PVP, hence more of a challenge... yes?

I just read the..... my pets defends me if I lose connection. Is this the big thing you are seeking? If you lose connection, have the pet stay and guard you? How about have a simple toggle for pets, "stay logged in as long as I do". That would fix that desired effect. Have the pet take on your connection status.

If first you don't succeed, ask a different way.

 

[cazador]

The people defending pet logging are just the people who enjoy the easy button. The logging of pets was introduced to aid with pets being stuck, due to bad AI. I agree there needs to be that option because well. You spend a week or two trading and bonding a pet to watch it wither into the Abyss is a horrible ending regardless. I honestly think some limitations should be applied as well. I’ve abused this as much as the next guy/gal. From logging mounts after a dismount death. After dying to a mob and not wanting my swampy to die. All those things benefit me. I don’t have to run to the Vet. Heck PC Vets barely even exist anymore due to pet logging, NPC Vets, and consume damage. Removing the log option would hinder my experience somewhat. So now in pvp my mount would die almost indefinitely. Which yes can be quite annoying, but I feel like that’s probably a risk no? Now as for limitations. You shouldn’t be allowed to log a pet while in flee. Flee doesn’t exist in Trammel. So not an issue there. Pet balls should work EVERYWHERE! Yes everywhere. Why can’t you summon your pet to Despise, that’s just stupid. So instead of using an item in game I just run and log..what’s the difference? What about adding a pet bounty. OnDeath you’re given the option. Stable your pet for X amount of gold. That would save the obnoxiousness of having to go through the annoying log out log in process. Now as long as you’re not in the heat of battle there shouldn’t be any reason you can’t save your pet, especially since the tamers are already used to their pets never having to be ressed anymore. Plus it would be a decent gold sink, after all that’s not a bad thing considering how broken the economy currently is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tyrath]

Hmm so if they fixed pet pathfinding and let pet balls work everywhere all would be good. But at this point there really are things that need attention a lot more than pet logging and since the M person does not feel it is a exploit then it is not a exploit

 

[Seynix]

Pet pathing is too wonky/slow so the current system is basically essential. Devs should focus elsewhere.