IDOCing and the value it adds

[arkiu]

I was hoping to have a genuine debate on the subject of IDOCing and the impact it has on UO, but the only means of this happening is if everyone keeps cool and avoids weird petty personal attacks.

I would like to start by asking the devs ( @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak ) what their thoughts are as to whether or not they feel IDOCing is a healthy aspect of the game and if they feel it truly adds anything to UO.

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

Some players whole gameplay experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

It also seems to be a source of problems e.g. scripting, scamming etc. At least thats how it was in the past.

I believe this part of UO should be eliminated, and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same.

 

[Lord Nabin]

*Looks up from his spot by the fire, sets down his pipe carefully on the oak table and makes a small gesture with his fingers*

Let's hear that again.

"I was hoping to have a genuine debate on the subject of PVP and the impact it has on UO, but the only means of this happening is if everyone keeps cool and avoids weird petty personal attacks.

I would like to start by asking the devs ( @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak ) what their thoughts are as to whether or not they feel PVPing is a healthy aspect of the game and if they feel it truly adds anything to UO.

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

Some players whole game play experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

It also seems to be a source of problems e.g. scripting, scamming etc. At least that's how it was in the past.

I believe this part of UO should be eliminated, and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same."

Now that sounds more familiar.

While Idocing might not be something you consider to be a valid game play, it has had a solid community and following going for over a decade and a half now.

Your fun might not be theirs and their fun not yours. Your post leads me to believe that you really are not all that familiar with the overall idoc community experience.

What's the value idocing adds?

Community it's why we are here.

 

[arkiu]

*Looks up from his spot by the fire, sets down his pipe carefully on the oak table and makes a small gesture with his fingers*

Let's hear that again.

"I was hoping to have a genuine debate on the subject of PVP and the impact it has on UO, but the only means of this happening is if everyone keeps cool and avoids weird petty personal attacks.

I would like to start by asking the devs ( @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak ) what their thoughts are as to whether or not they feel PVPing is a healthy aspect of the game and if they feel it truly adds anything to UO.

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

Some players whole game play experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

It also seems to be a source of problems e.g. scripting, scamming etc. At least that's how it was in the past.

I believe this part of UO should be eliminated, and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same."

Now that sounds more familiar.

While Idocing might not be something you consider to be a valid game play, it has had a solid community and following going for over a decade and a half now.

Your fun might not be theirs and their fun not yours. Your post leads me to believe that you really are not all that familiar with the overall idoc community experience.

I expected criticism and thats fair.

But whether or not I am "familiar with the overall idoc community experience" ( common man i've idoced before ) is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make.

Does it make UO a better game? Or, is UO better off without it? From an "idoc community" perspective sure it makes UO seem more fun but what about the rest of the player base? Does it cause massive imbalance issues? Does it have an adverse impact on the (extremely saturated) economy? All things i'd like to hear people discuss.

 

[Beldin Brightaxe]

I was hoping to have a genuine debate on the subject of IDOCing and the impact it has on UO, but the only means of this happening is if everyone keeps cool and avoids weird petty personal attacks.

I would like to start by asking the devs ( @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak ) what their thoughts are as to whether or not they feel IDOCing is a healthy aspect of the game and if they feel it truly adds anything to UO.

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

Some players whole gameplay experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

It also seems to be a source of problems e.g. scripting, scamming etc. At least thats how it was in the past.

I believe this part of UO should be eliminated, and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same.

I don't know what the devs think about IDOCing, but I think its a very healthy aspect of the game.

Honestly, if we just changed the subject of your post to PvP, just about every point you make about IDOCing applies there as well.

I honestly just don't get the whole argument. IDOCing has been in the game almost from the beginning.

Are people just jealous because they don't get good stuff in general?

 

[Pawain]

If community is a bunch of players afk at a house until it is supposed to drop and if it doesn't drop they return 5 hours later then an IDOC is a community event.

I wish it had a timer and fell at 0. I got a ship painting with 250 heavy charges this week. Dont have Kings Collection tho.

 

[Beldin Brightaxe]

I expected criticism and thats fair.

But whether or not I am "familiar with the overall idoc community experience" ( common man i've idoced before ) is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make.

Does it make UO a better game? Or, is UO better off without it? From an "idoc community" perspective sure it makes UO seem more fun but what about the rest of the player base? Does it cause massive imbalance issues? Does it have an adverse impact on the (extremely saturated) economy? All things i'd like to hear people discuss.

UO is unique from any other game that I know about regarding IDOCing, so yes, it make UO a better game.

I don't even understand the next point. If you don't have fun doing IDOCs, don't do them. If you don't have fun Pvping, don't do it. If you don't enjoy fishing, don't do it. If you don't enjoy PvM, don't do it. To take away an important aspect of the game because not everyone enjoys it fails take into consideration the diversity of this game.

I have no idea what imbalance issues IDOCing even remotely causes. Are you talking gold?

If you're going to talk about the extremely saturated economy, why not bring up EM event drops? Or what I like to call the ever increasing in power arms race of loot drops. Those are much worse for the economy than IDOCs.

 

[MalagAste]

You know sometimes I think it would be nice if you went to somewhere like Ter Mur gate or something and all around were gates taking you to all IDOCs that are ready to fall within the next hour...

 

[arkiu]

I don't know what the devs think about IDOCing, but I think its a very healthy aspect of the game.

Honestly, if we just changed the subject of your post to PvP, just about every point you make about IDOCing applies there as well.

I honestly just don't get the whole argument. IDOCing has been in the game almost from the beginning.

Are people just jealous because they don't get good stuff in general?

Man. You are seriously going to compare IDOCing with PvP? Cool.

To be honest when you say "good stuff" I honestly dont even know what that is anymore. If "good stuff" == "rares" or "high value items" then I gotta say broski this game is flooded with "good stuff" to the point where nothing seems good anymore, and IDOCing seems to perpetuate that.

 

[skittles1337]

Mesanna made a comment maybe about 8-10 months ago at an IDOC on ATL, she wasn't in love with the current system. She suggested that when a house falls the only thing the person loses is the house location, but all the house content would be placed somewhere for the owner to reclaim when they returned. I doubt she will do anything like that, I think at that point in time she was just tired of all the complaints. Now the focus has shifted toward multiboxers, so she could probably careless.

 

[The Craftsman]

I was hoping to have a genuine debate on the subject of IDOCing and the impact it has on UO, but the only means of this happening is if everyone keeps cool and avoids weird petty personal attacks.

I would like to start by asking the devs ( @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak ) what their thoughts are as to whether or not they feel IDOCing is a healthy aspect of the game and if they feel it truly adds anything to UO.

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

Some players whole gameplay experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

It also seems to be a source of problems e.g. scripting, scamming etc. At least thats how it was in the past.

I believe this part of UO should be eliminated, and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same.

I agree. The vast majority of UO players arent interested in gameplay. Their version of gameplay (if you can call it that) is being addicted to hoarding pixels and salivate at the thought of free stuff. And this is despite the fact that every IDOC that falls is another player account lost to the game and another nail in UO's coffin due to the game having no player growth. The whole system is peverse and UO is a game where very little is taken out of the game which means there is no real economy and peoples wealth is counted in the billions. UO is the gaming home of people with an addiction who simply acquire houses to store more and more and more pixels that they never use and never look at. They call themselves collectors whilst really they are just hoarders.

IDOCS add not one iota of gameplay to UO.

 

[arkiu]

You know sometimes I think it would be nice if you went to somewhere like Ter Mur gate or something and all around were gates taking you to all IDOCs that are ready to fall within the next hour...

Hah ya know MalagAste despite my stratics account age I've actually played UO since about the same time as you, assuming your stratics account coincides with your UO birth.

The thought of obtaining more "good stuff" makes me cringe. I'll pass if that was some kind of invite, but thanks!

 

[arkiu]

I agree. The vast majority of UO players arent interested in gameplay. Their version of gameplay (if you can call it that) is being addicted to hoarding pixels and salivate at the thought of free stuff. And this is despite the fact that every IDOC that falls is another player account lost to the game and another nail in UO's coffin due to the game having no player growth. The whole system is peverse and UO is a game where very little is taken out of the game which means there is no real economy and peoples wealth is counted in the billions. UO is the gaming home of people with an addiction who simply acquire houses to store more and more and more pixels that they never use and never look at. They call themselves collectors whilst really they are just hoarders.

IDOCS add not one iota of gameplay to UO.

Yes... a constant reminder that people are quiting. I guess the ironic thing is that people apparently seem to love this.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

It's got nothing to do with playing the game.

It adds to two tiered wealth, and gives all to those who don't play, and takes away from those who would like to play.

If it were Felucca based only, you could argue it was more earned, same for event drops, but at the moment, it isn't even earned in any way.

I don't know how any of this stuff has any value. But, it's down to the players, the players decide value, if we decided those items had zero value, and didn't buy, the system would not exist, because it would make it unworthwhile for the Idocers to do. Boycott the system, like I do, if everyone did it, it would not exist. Never buy a rare again, and the system folds. Let people hoard rubbish, let them hoard pixels.

 

[Faeryl]

As someone who went to many an idoc over the years, I have to say that I've had quite a few fun conversations with both friends and strangers while I waited. I've had good hauls, bad luck... I've been made to fight for the prize and have both won and lost. One battle that stands out to me, the red even resurrected me after the fact and we laughed about it.

I have found fascinating bits of shard and player history. I have salvaged soulstones to be placed in public storage incasetheir owner ever returned for them. I have even recovered mementos of some of my own friends that I have made in this game over the years.

As a newer player at the time, I got a lot of deco and (at the time) decent armour that I otherwise likely wouldn't have had access to. This allowed me to further enjoy other aspects of the game (house design and occasional hunting). What I didn't want or need, I often sold fairly cheap, or gifted to friends. Much of the armour and weapons were left in Haven/New Haven for lucky new players.

It was one of my main sources of in-game income, and it allowed me to be able to progress and be able to help others. I've even given away my old houses to newer players when I've managed to place a spot I prefer.

Yes, there are scripters. But there are scripters in nearly every aspect of the game, from idocs, to events, to resource gathering.

Just because you don't see the draw or potential of a certain aspect of the game, doesn't mean it should be eliminated. There is still a community, and there are benefits to the system.

 

[GarthGrey]

House signs should NOT report their status to anyone except the owner. They should decay and fall without notice. Everything in an idoc should get dumped into the Cavern of the Discarded at random intervals....done. There's a seperate Housing Server, it should have a seperate storage distribution system. All items from all shards are dumped into the system and randomly redistributed to random shards, then you can say it's a part of UO that can be enjoyed by all.

 

[railshot]

House signs should NOT report their status to anyone except the owner. They should decay and fall without notice. Everything in an idoc should get dumped into the Cavern of the Discarded at random intervals....done. There's a seperate Housing Server, it should have a seperate storage distribution system. All items from all shards are dumped into the system and randomly redistributed to random shards, then you can say it's a part of UO that can be enjoyed by all.

In addition to ghost camera scripts monitoring Despise, we will have a bunch monitoring Cavern of the Discarded now. I don't see how this solves anything.

 

[arkiu]

I've made friends at IDOCS, and enemies, and seen some wild fights that went on for hours on end, and even saw a few new PvPers cut their teeth on tracking down stealthers to kill. Some loathe IDOCS, sure, but many love them and can't get enough of them too. The randomness of it all, it's like opening a christmas present every time... and yeah, lots of them have nothing of value at all.

It's also a good way to keep items from vanishing forever. You can't just do away with something you hate if others like it ya know?

My main point bud is that while some players may enjoy doing it, its also likely having significant consequences on the economy -- particularly when you consider that player population is continuing to decline. There is no legitimate gold/loot sink in this game hence my overuse of the word "saturated" in an economic context.

Another point i was trying to make is there seems to be so little to strive for through in game content nowadays -- and IDOCs make the problem worse. Why do anything e.g. Hunting, basic crafting, etc. when you can just do an IDOC and potentially earn hundreds of millions. It takes away from the game itself!

Imagine if any other MMO had these kinds of community grab bags on such a regular basis and what kind of impact that would have.

 

[arkiu]

In addition to ghost camera scripts monitoring Despise, we will have a bunch monitoring Cavern of the Discarded now. I don't see how this solves anything.

What about a champ spawn of the discarded?

 

[railshot]

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

I've been to maybe 4 IDOCs in my time of playing and pretty much regretted the wasted time every time. But I also feel the same about EM events. It does not mean that it cannot be "considered gameplay". This is a sandbox, and as long as a bunch of people derive pleasure from doing something, it's a valid part of the game. UO is so rich with experiences that it can considered to be a world of it'self. I know people who never PvM or PvP. The decorate for their gameplay. Or grow plants. Or collect pixel crack. I think the variety of these pursuits adds value to the game.

So I would not get rid of IDOC system simply because of all the drama. I would only consider stopping it, if the devs could replace it with a system where the stuff is stored indefinitely. At least this would have a benefit of maybe inducing more players to come back down the line. But other than that, I would just try to make skripting more difficult.

Some players whole gameplay experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

Majority of game content rots away because the devs seem to have a strange aversion to spending very little time updating loot tables to be in tune with the latest developments. I think the idea is to have a spectrum of risk vs reward levels. Unfortunately the spectrum where the reward is worth anything at all is rather narrow. 90% of the game content is not worth doing just because the drops are such junk. I really would prefer that instead of a new landmass or some other big expansion, devs just went over old content. I am glad that fishing will be getting a boost. But most of the peerless are never touched. Same goes for most of the rest of the content.

 

[It Lives]

Imo just because it has been in game from the start(insert other bottom feeder defenses) does not and should not mean Idocs should stay in game. Over all I would say this antique system should be gone, if for no other reason than to purge the game of excess garbage Oo.

 

[arkiu]

As someone who went to many an idoc over the years, I have to say that I've had quite a few fun conversations with both friends and strangers while I waited. I've had good hauls, bad luck... I've been made to fight for the prize and have both won and lost. One battle that stands out to me, the red even resurrected me after the fact and we laughed about it.

I have found fascinating bits of shard and player history. I have salvaged soulstones to be placed in public storage incasetheir owner ever returned for them. I have even recovered mementos of some of my own friends that I have made in this game over the years.

As a newer player at the time, I got a lot of deco and (at the time) decent armour that I otherwise likely wouldn't have had access to. This allowed me to further enjoy other aspects of the game (house design and occasional hunting). What I didn't want or need, I often sold fairly cheap, or gifted to friends. Much of the armour and weapons were left in Haven/New Haven for lucky new players.

It was one of my main sources of in-game income, and it allowed me to be able to progress and be able to help others. I've even given away my old houses to newer players when I've managed to place a spot I prefer.

Yes, there are scripters. But there are scripters in nearly every aspect of the game, from idocs, to events, to resource gathering.

Just because you don't see the draw or potential of a certain aspect of the game, doesn't mean it should be eliminated. There is still a community, and there are benefits to the system.

Ya see -- and wow im gonna sound like such an old fart right now -- but some of the best feelings i ever got from playing UO is when i felt like i actually earned something. Whether it was snagging a vanq off some balron or trading a pair of pheonix legs for a tram brit home whatever. Now, i did an idoc two or three years ago, landed a whole phoenix suit, 10+ serious rares, etc., and then temp quit two months later. The excitment for me tapered off pretty quickly when i realized how much of a joke it was because i basically just won UO that day in the least rewarding fashion possible.

I was already rich but then i was a lot more rich. And there seemed to be nothing else to do. Nothing to really go after in game. See my point?

 

[Lore]

Okay, without personal attacks, how do people justify paying real money for 40+ accounts to IDOC if they aren't making real money off of it?

 

[Faeryl]

Okay, without personal attacks, how do people justify paying real money for 40+ accounts to IDOC if they aren't making real money off of it?

When I went to idocs, I only had my one account. For years after I started doing idocs, I only had my one account. I have never made real money off this game.

 

[elster]

I second the "if you don't like it, don't do it" notion. You don't have to like it, just ignore it / don't do it. How is this hurting anyone? Your "harmful to the game economy" argument means nothing without evidence backing this up. Just because you thought it up in your head doesn't mean it holds any weight.

 

[Nexus]

I was hoping to have a genuine debate on the subject of IDOCing and the impact it has on UO, but the only means of this happening is if everyone keeps cool and avoids weird petty personal attacks.

I would like to start by asking the devs ( @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak ) what their thoughts are as to whether or not they feel IDOCing is a healthy aspect of the game and if they feel it truly adds anything to UO.

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

Some players whole gameplay experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

It also seems to be a source of problems e.g. scripting, scamming etc. At least thats how it was in the past.

I believe this part of UO should be eliminated, and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same.

Go enjoy the other content, if everyone else is out doing IDOC's as you seem to assume then there is less waiting or competition at everything else.

UO is unique from any other game that I know about regarding IDOCing, so yes, it make UO a better game.

I don't even understand the next point. If you don't have fun doing IDOCs, don't do them. If you don't have fun Pvping, don't do it. If you don't enjoy fishing, don't do it. If you don't enjoy PvM, don't do it. To take away an important aspect of the game because not everyone enjoys it fails take into consideration the diversity of this game.

I have no idea what imbalance issues IDOCing even remotely causes. Are you talking gold?

If you're going to talk about the extremely saturated economy, why not bring up EM event drops? Or what I like to call the ever increasing in power arms race of loot drops. Those are much worse for the economy than IDOCs.

I'd go so far as to say that EM drops are one of the worst things in the game at the moment. I don't and won't bother with EM events strictly because of the amount of unscrupulous methods people use to try and get drops and how those drops often are laundered here and elsewhere to feed the RMT trade.

House signs should NOT report their status to anyone except the owner. They should decay and fall without notice. Everything in an idoc should get dumped into the Cavern of the Discarded at random intervals....done. There's a seperate Housing Server, it should have a seperate storage distribution system. All items from all shards are dumped into the system and randomly redistributed to random shards, then you can say it's a part of UO that can be enjoyed by all.

I'd go for this honestly. It would make things a bit interesting, I love checking out whats in there now and then. I get that a decade and a half ago IDOC's did serve a valid purpose, when most servers hadn't room to place a 7x7 much less anything larger, IDOCs were an indicator of a house spot opening up, and became a social gathering location. Today, not so much, but UO has bigger problems that should be addressed instead of worrying about the IDOC system.

In addition to ghost camera scripts monitoring Despise, we will have a bunch monitoring Cavern of the Discarded now. I don't see how this solves anything.

Easy fix, set a timer in the Abyss if you're a ghost more than {X} minutes you're transported to either the Silver Sapling to Rez, provided you're carrying a seed, or booted from the Dungeon.

Ya see -- and wow im gonna sound like such an old fart right now -- but some of the best feelings i ever got from playing UO is when i felt like i actually earned something. Whether it was snagging a vanq off some balron or trading a pair of pheonix legs for a tram brit home whatever. Now, i did an idoc two or three years ago, landed a whole phoenix suit, 10+ serious rares, etc., and then temp quit two months later. The excitment for me tapered off pretty quickly when i realized how much of a joke it was because i basically just won UO that day in the least rewarding fashion possible.

I was already rich but then i was a lot more rich. And there seemed to be nothing else to do. Nothing to really go after in game. See my point?

There's always something to go for, what you're actually saying there is nothing left that really interests you, this is a personal reflection not a statement about the game.

 

[Nexus]

Okay, without personal attacks, how do people justify paying real money for 40+ accounts to IDOC if they aren't making real money off of it?

Some people simply have more accounts than they need or can reasonably use. Others are pixel addicts who want to have as much of everything as possible.

 

[Nexus]

My main point bud is that while some players may enjoy doing it, its also likely having significant consequences on the economy -- particularly when you consider that player population is continuing to decline. There is no legitimate gold/loot sink in this game hence my overuse of the word "saturated" in an economic context.

Another point i was trying to make is there seems to be so little to strive for through in game content nowadays -- and IDOCs make the problem worse. Why do anything e.g. Hunting, basic crafting, etc. when you can just do an IDOC and potentially earn hundreds of millions. It takes away from the game itself!

Imagine if any other MMO had these kinds of community grab bags on such a regular basis and what kind of impact that would have.

Removing IDOC's won't re-invigorate Crafting. AoS killed crafting and it's been over complicated in trying to compensate for it.

 

[Faeryl]

Ya see -- and wow im gonna sound like such an old fart right now -- but some of the best feelings i ever got from playing UO is when i felt like i actually earned something. Whether it was snagging a vanq off some balron or trading a pair of pheonix legs for a tram brit home whatever. Now, i did an idoc two or three years ago, landed a whole phoenix suit, 10+ serious rares, etc., and then temp quit two months later. The excitment for me tapered off pretty quickly when i realized how much of a joke it was because i basically just won UO that day in the least rewarding fashion possible.

I was already rich but then i was a lot more rich. And there seemed to be nothing else to do. Nothing to really go after in game. See my point?

I enjoy earning things as well. I have earned many things over the years entirely unrelated to idocs. The difference seems to be that when I found something good to sell, I looked at it as benefiting more than just myself. It allowed me to go further in areas of the game I enjoy, and someone else got something they wanted that maybe they couldn't have gotten on their own.

Really what it sounds like to me is that you're blaming idocs for your own inability to find something you enjoy doing in-game. Even if you're rich, if you really want something, there's nothing stopping you from going out and earning it yourself. No one said that just because you have the gold, you have to buy everything you want. You can't "win" UO.

 

[arkiu]

I second the "if you don't like it, don't do it" notion. You don't have to like it, just ignore it / don't do it. How is this hurting anyone? Your "harmful to the game economy" argument means nothing without evidence backing this up. Just because you thought it up in your head doesn't mean it holds any weight.

So you believe that it IDOCing must have no impact on other aspects of the game, therefore if i dont like it, i just shouldnt do it..

Sorry dude i just believe you are missing the point.

But you are right in that i have no solid evidence in its impact on the economy, though it should be pretty obvious. This is partly why i tagged the devs to get their opinion.

 

[arkiu]

I enjoy earning things as well. I have earned many things over the years entirely unrelated to idocs. The difference seems to be that when I found something good to sell, I looked at it as benefiting more than just myself. It allowed me to go further in areas of the game I enjoy, and someone else got something they wanted that maybe they couldn't have gotten on their own.

Really what it sounds like to me is that you're blaming idocs for your own inability to find something you enjoy doing in-game. Even if you're rich, if you really want something, there's nothing stopping you from going out and earning it yourself. No one said that just because you have the gold, you have to buy everything you want. You can't "win" UO.

Ya know.... perhaps you're right

 

[Lore]

Some people simply have more accounts than they need or can reasonably use. Others are pixel addicts who want to have as much of everything as possible.

So you're explanation for 40+ account users that IDOC is simply that's how they want to game and they have no other motive outside of gaming?

 

[Scribbles]

Ill go head and make a list of the reasons why people idoc.

1. Gold. The most obvious reason, its a great way for a player with no money at all to get a step up in the game. A new player with no skill at all can literally get a great jump if he makes it to an idoc. Picks up a suit, some weapons, perhaps something to sell to buy those things.

2. Community. I used to love talking with @Queen Arya or @UNKNOWN of Atlantic for hours on end waiting for a house to fall. WE would talk about anything from tv shows to sports or about idocs in the past. I built some long lasting friendships from idocs that will never die. To this day @Queen Arya can icq me and i will help as much as i can.

3. Saving unique items. This probably the most important for rares collectors or enthusiast. Who knows how many unique items wouldnt exist any longer with out the garbage men of UO around to find them.

4. PvP. My favorite type of pvp was at fel idocs. Nothing quite like battling it out for the items or to place the house. incredibly hard to hold an idoc for hours on end and a ton of fun that builds even more community.


As with a lot of areas of this game, certain types of game play have been tainted by a small group of people. Dont let a person with 40 plus accounts and greed up to the ears ruin a tradition for everyone. Idocers have a ton of history, if you would like to learn more... Find @Lord Nabin around a fire place in moonglow and sip some red wine with him. He has a ton of great stories to share.

 

[Flagg]

UO comes with this list of quirks,dysfunctionalities or perfectly intentional game features that amount to something pretty unique; things one can do in no other game. While not extremely long, I'm sure that list is ultimately why we all still playing and enjoying a 20 year old MMO. Various aspects of IDOCing absolutely belongs to that list. It absolutely has a great deal of value to the community.
And it absolutely brings some of our worst qualities to surface sometimes. It is one of the game's aspects that rewards scripting, cheating very handsomely. That makes a separate matter I guess.

 

[Lord Arm]

for any new or returning player, idocs are the best way to get started. with all the cheating, multi char use, and other activities, idocs have left a bad taste for many people. with the free to play up coming, I wonder what activities , exploits ect... will occur. all I care about is this be fair. i just wish the devs were able or willing to stop the cheating.

 

[Smoot]

*Looks up from his spot by the fire, sets down his pipe carefully on the oak table and makes a small gesture with his fingers*

Let's hear that again.

"I was hoping to have a genuine debate on the subject of PVP and the impact it has on UO, but the only means of this happening is if everyone keeps cool and avoids weird petty personal attacks.

I would like to start by asking the devs ( @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak ) what their thoughts are as to whether or not they feel PVPing is a healthy aspect of the game and if they feel it truly adds anything to UO.

I personally feel that a giant loot fest triggered by those who quit or are banned adds nothing that can even remotely be considered gameplay. My biggest concern is that it seems to be such a big part of a game that is so incredibly saturated with gold, rares etc.

Some players whole game play experience seems to be centered around this, while the vast majority of in game content rots away.

It also seems to be a source of problems e.g. scripting, scamming etc. At least that's how it was in the past.

I believe this part of UO should be eliminated, and I'm curious if anyone else feels the same."

Now that sounds more familiar.

While Idocing might not be something you consider to be a valid game play, it has had a solid community and following going for over a decade and a half now.

Your fun might not be theirs and their fun not yours. Your post leads me to believe that you really are not all that familiar with the overall idoc community experience.

What's the value idocing adds?

Community it's why we are here.

bot accounts using scripts, then selling those items for nothing, giving people little reason to hunt with their guild. what world are you in that even remotely sound like "community"? idocing has nothing to do with a group activity, the most successful idocers are all solo. One of the most successful idocers is also known to put those items up for auction, and then ban people from the house before the auction ends.

Community means going out and doing something with other people. which has nothing to do with idocing. maybe it did in years gone by, but not in 2017.

My main problem with idocing, is that we have an overabundance of loot. that loot has a very harmful effect on everything that UO offers, because any time its easier and cheaper to just buy something for very little, people arent going to actually go out in the game and do that content themselves. Thats harmful to the entire pvm community, which is the majority of players in UO.

not to mention those people who needlessly lose everything have less chance of ever coming back. So every idoc is a member of the UO community is most likely lost forever. It doesnt have to be the case, those items could be easily stored on the servers with no impact on performance with UOs now low population.

 

[railshot]

Okay, without personal attacks, how do people justify paying real money for 40+ accounts to IDOC if they aren't making real money off of it?

There is no doubt in my mind that some people earn real money from IDOCs. I am sure that some people earn real money from Powerscrolls, or gold, or pretty much anything and everything in the game. It's not the reason to completely remove the game mechanic.

 

[Scribbles]

bot accounts using scripts, then selling those items for nothing, giving people little reason to hunt with their guild. what world are you in that even remotely sound like "community"? idocing has nothing to do with a group activity, the most successful idocers are all solo. One of the most successful idocers is also known to put those items up for auction, and then ban people from the house before the auction ends.

Community means going out and doing something with other people. which has nothing to do with idocing.

My main problem with idocing, is that we have an overabundance of loot. that loot has a very harmful effect on everything that UO offers, because any time its easier and cheaper to just buy something for very little, people arent going to actually go out in the game and do that content themselves. Thats harmful to the entire pvm community, which is the majority of players in UO.

not to mention those people who needlessly lose everything have less chance of ever coming back. So every idoc is a member of the UO community is most likely lost forever. It doesnt have to be the case, those items could be easily stored on the servers with no impact on performance with UOs now low population.

again dont let a small group of people ruin something for the rest.

That same concept can be applied to anything that drops legendaries, em events, resource farming, or pretty much anything in the game.

I think the biggest focus should be actually policing the afk bots, getting rid of the scripters in general etc etc. For the most part these are a small group of people that are doing all three of the big money makers (legendaries, em events, idocs) and the staff is giving them no consequences for their actions.

They farm 24/7 and from what i can tell nothing happens to them. Some of them even brag about having @Mesanna 's personal number, or even brag about having her drop a house early while no one else is there. (icq me if you want the screen shots) Not saying @Mesanna is doing this, just saying these people brag about it.

 

[Lady CaT]

While I personally would rather have a root canal than idoc. I can tell you some of the benefits I've seen over the years. I know idocers who have helped preserve shard histories, saved players houses from loss, returned soul stones, used the items to help countless new players get started, helped build and decorate player towns for others to enjoy, run community events and given away more gold prizes then I can count, and some idocers have even put food on tables and payed medical bills in real life. I'm ok with letting those players enjoy their idocing in a game. Besides players aren't required to idoc, go do countless other things in game if you don't like idocing.

 

[Prince Erik]

I'm in the "don't give a flying pancake about IDOC's" camp, myself. I've never run across one, don't plan on ever searching for one and have long ago accepted that I honestly do not need a lot of stuff or be hugely wealthy in game. In fact, I think if I did put in the effort to get super rich and be able to buy everything I wanted I'd probably have quit by now. Achieving that goal would allow me to achieve every other goal I've set in game.

While I personally have always thought IDOCS are on the morbid side, I could see the allure of getting lucky and snagging something you could really use. It's not how I'd prefer to spend my UO time, but if others decide to, then I really don't care what happens with them. The economy is so broken at this point that any effect of keeping them/removing them won't make one bit of difference, IMHO. If anything they might make some things more affordable if items are put up for sale by whoever snags the stuff vs. just sitting in a giant max storage plot locked up in secures in some private hoard.

 

[Captn Norrington]

My thoughts:

IDOC benefits:

• Easiest way for a new or returning player to make some gold to put them on a level playing field instead of perpetually economically inferior to veteran players.
• It has created a unique type of community interaction like Nabin mentioned.
• It creates a reason for people to pvp when a Felucca IDOC is the prize.
• They become daily events for the community, kind of like an EM event but without the storyline.
• They provide entertainment that isn't available anywhere else in the game, since this is the only place free valuable things literally fall from the sky.
• They allow competitive people who don't like pvp to compete with each other in Trammel which is fun for them.

IDOC drawbacks:

• Encourages a culture of item worship and greed.
• The fact that we are essentially celebrating the game losing a player and slowly dying at every IDOC. "Yay someone quit so I get free stuff, I hope lots more people leave so I can have all their stuff too!"
• Encourages the use of illegal programs driven by the competitive atmosphere and greed.
• Encourages harassment, since every person you harass into leaving is one less person competing with you for free stuff.
• Creates a very tightly controlled market for the best UO houses, since only the best IDOC hunters will ever have the skill to place them. They can then get together and drive up all the prices, essentially establishing a monopoly over the housing market and forcing anyone wanting a house larger than an 18x18 or in a good location to pay huge prices. This prevents all but the richest players from ever having a chance to own the best houses in the game.

 

[Lady Storm]

Its time to end this fuss over other peoples property.
My idea still stands.
At the end of the 90th day the house goes OSI. With a notice on house sign.
With a set number of hours (id say days but that can be misconstrewed) for the Owner to turn on the account
After set hours past all contents of house pop into storage crate, and a bidding stone pops on steps.
7 days active players may bid on house and contents. ( will be excellent sink for the gold spent)
Like the Magincia plots the winner will be notified.

Yes its sounds unfair at first for the younger player but how many of you think that the smaller houses will be bid on?
These will be up for the younger players to grab.
Then you got to figure that the buyer needs to keep the account open for a bit... that will also help the game.
This is a great gold/platinum sink.. it leaves the game. Poof.

 

[Lore]

There is no doubt in my mind that some people earn real money from IDOCs. I am sure that some people earn real money from Powerscrolls, or gold, or pretty much anything and everything in the game. It's not the reason to completely remove the game mechanic.

No, not at all the point, the point is that they should be banned. If you are selling items in game you should be banned. There is no scenario where a person inserts a real monetary market in a video game where the game benefits unless it's controlled by the owner of the game.

 

[Lady Storm]

Lore
I have seen and known of people who have made RL money off UO, Wow, EQ, and many other games ...
Most have stopped doing it on UO and left the game... key word is most.
There was a guild who ran the spawns in fel and sold tons of Scrolls and idoc major loot, and resources... they boasted of the paydays they had to the shard.
They moved to Atl.
I know many run bots on off shards with so low a population that will not cause too much waves for the GMs to be bothered.
So yes there are people who make RL money off UO still. Some we all know very well...

 

[The Craftsman]

There is no doubt in my mind that some people earn real money from IDOCs. I am sure that some people earn real money from Powerscrolls, or gold, or pretty much anything and everything in the game. It's not the reason to completely remove the game mechanic.

Non of which is legal. But is condoned by EA courtesy of not acting against it.

 

[railshot]

No, not at all the point, the point is that they should be banned. If you are selling items in game you should be banned. There is no scenario where a person inserts a real monetary market in a video game where the game benefits unless it's controlled by the owner of the game.

While I agree that in most cases RMT is bad, I just don't see how that battle could be won. I watched CCP of EVE online try. They dedicated a lot of resources to it and were banning botting accounts in batches. But eventually they gave up and started doing the RMT themselves. That pretty much killed off the unofficial ones. RMTers tried to undercut CCP, but most players thought that lower prices were not worth the risk of losing one's account. But even that route requires enforcement. I don't see BS being able to allocate resources to this.

 

[Lore]

My stance is, unless you own the intellectual property the only money exchange you should see for this game is your own subscription fee. Anything else is just an illusion of excuse for your poor gaming behavior and while you may feel it's not detrimental to anyone it really does affect the small player and the gaming economy through cause and affect.

I've seen people make all the excuses in the world for their bad habits and questionable moral behavior so they can sleep at night. I also do not appreciate troll bait in private messages trying to get me to be moderated again by calling you out publicly. It's a shame this community board has the rule for not calling people out that we know are bad for the game. It only enables the further detriment to everything we all actually care about in this game.

 

[Revenant]

I wrote this somewhere else, but I think I'll share it after all.

A big reason it took me so long to return to UO is because I was unable to bear the thought of all I’d lost from my house collapsing. Turns out most of the really valuable stuff was in my bank box (not that it was actually valuable, but it was the most valuable stuff I had), but I’d forgotten I’d done that. Even so I know I left a cheque for most of my gold in the house, and just that was hard enough. I’m not saying that’s a reason to remove IDOC, since that wouldn’t help me at all, I’m just saying. It hurt.

It made the exit a “final” one for ten years. Each and every time I thought of re-activating my account, I’d stop. In the end I actually created a new account just to not deal with that pain head-on. And then my new guild (including some old friends) encouraged me to get my old account back, and it turned out I still had a few things and a million-ish gold, and that was enough to make me happy. But emotionally, I was really rolling the dice there, and I didn’t even realize it at the time. If I’d got control of my original account back and found everything but the characters gone, and them broke, I don’t know what I would have done.

I still feel like there's a huge climb for me to ever be effective in this game again, especially with thousands of gold in insurance costs each time a character dies.

 

[SugarMMM]

After set hours past all contents of house pop into storage crate, and a bidding stone pops on steps.
7 days active players may bid on house and contents. ( will be excellent sink for the gold spent)
Like the Magincia plots the winner will be notified.

I have said this before but I think it would be better have it be a raffle system so it isn't just the billionaires bidding against each other.
You could have a raffle for the contents and another raffle for the plot to place a house.

 

[railshot]

My stance is, unless you own the intellectual property the only money exchange you should see for this game is your own subscription fee. Anything else is just an illusion of excuse for your poor gaming behavior and while you may feel it's not detrimental to anyone it really does affect the small player and the gaming economy through cause and affect.

I've seen people make all the excuses in the world for their bad habits and questionable moral behavior so they can sleep at night. I also do not appreciate troll bait in private messages trying to get me to be moderated again by calling you out publicly. It's a shame this community board has the rule for not calling people out that we know are bad for the game. It only enables the further detriment to everything we all actually care about in this game.

I agree with you - RMT is bad and should not be happening. But we have to reconcile our desires with what is possible and what is not.
There is an additional contributing factor that I neglected to mention in my previous post - it's smaller shard economy and shard shields. When you are on a lesser populated shard and you do not have a shard shield to Atlantic and back there are 2 problems:
1) It's very difficult to make gold by selling stuff. Even if you regularly get nice drops, it's very difficult and time consuming to sell them. Trying to sell anything of value on a vendor is unrealistic for 90% of items out there (monopoly items like power scrolls and lvl 3 masteries are notable exceptions). Moreover, many people a reluctant to sell anything, because there is a chance they or their friends might need this item later, and there is no place to buy it (see #2)
2) When you need something, generally you can't buy it. People will not place a 20 million item on a vendor if it takes 4-6 weeks to sell (not because it's priced too high, but because that's the level of demand on a smaller shard). So, those who can, buy stuff on Atl. And those who can't, buy the stuff for green gold and have it delivered to their shard.
This is going to keep happening until the economy situation is fixed one way or the other.

 

[Lady Storm]

Nope wont fly...
The way I pointed out can be coded in the house system.
No dev needed.
This raffling would have to have a Dev fingers on it.
See that's the rub.
They don't have that kind of time to do on 27 shards...every time a house goes off the billing.
As for the rich buying all up... what part of the plat being removed from the game didn't you catch.
With players seeing the bidding on the stone.
That kind of plat removal will be good for the over all system.
And as I said before the small stuff they wont even go for... leaving it for others...
I mean come on a small plot you think a high roller will spend a ton on to get a chance at garbage they would only toss in the trash?
Unless they have seen the house before the packing crate is filled, I doubt many of the mediums or smalls will be snapped up by them.
I have been to a few Castles that were so filled with garbage...
No disrespect to the past owner mind you... but you cant call chests of tools and young skill makings good stuff.
And I have seen a 7x7 old school house stuffed to the brim with decient stuff.