Proposed PVP changes from most recent newsletter

[Merlin]

From the most recent Newsletter (found here: UO Newsletter ), there are some potential PVP related changes that were discussed in other threads in UHall.

Specifically, under "Animal Training Balancing" :

• Pets with magery mastery will no longer teleport to player targets.
• Removed spell damage increase cap damage versus pets. Increased player direct damage cap vs pets to account for max hit points.
• Corrected issue with special move cooldown for pets versus players.
• All pet damage is now reduced by 50% when targeting players.
• We will continue to make balance changes in the future based off 1 versus 1 scenarios.

I am creating this thread for a discussion of these changes and ONLY these changes. It's clear that some of those changes noted above came about after discussions in the other threads here on Stratics. The developers are watching and we hope to keep the discussion on topic.

This is not UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES to become another thread about Powerscrolls, PVM versus PVP playstyles, or personal criticism type comments / Forum PVP.

If you are unable to discuss in a meaningful manner, or you attempt to derail to non-related topics, thread bans and possible warnings will be issued.

 

[Acid Rain]

Locking that thread was stupid and lame. No wonder I stopped coming to this site.
Nuff said.... Adios for another 6 months or so.

 

[Great DC]

Can someone explain to me why the newletter isn't immediately available on their website. Why do you have to sign up for it????? Any possible changes to the game should be on public to view at anytime. In this newsletter does it say proposed?? Are they looking for feedback before doing this? Judging by all past feedbacks, it probably wont be done right.

 

[Mervyn]

no mention of the pet exploit of being able to insta log out a pet during the heat of battle by pressing log out...despite the fact this exploit was brought up during testing, good job, good job..

 

[Uvtha]

no mention of the pet exploit of being able to insta log out a pet during the heat of battle by pressing log out...despite the fact this exploit was brought up during testing, good job, good job..

Nor will there ever be, but keep your eye on those windmills buddy.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

As a PVM'er...

Nice changes imo. I am glad they are taking the time to have the changes only impact the PVP side of the game. Although, I would still like to see them create a "Pet Slayer" property. Bumping player damage to pets is a good thing imo but am not sure a little bump will be enough... especially when you are facing a 1,000 hp beast.

 

[Great DC]

First off by saying they increased the cap on direct damage is idiotic, there should be no cap on direct damage vs a pet/monster, other then the max dmg a char can do(i.e. the 300 dmg incr cap or SDI max). You cant allow pets to go to 1000+ hp and cap the damage against them for any reason. Just cause a player tamed something doesn't mean its not a monster anymore, it certainly isn't a player is it.

 

[Mervyn]

All the tamers will be crying that their pets now only do 50% damage, i don't think they really needed to nerf the pet damage, the auto log/out in exploit being fixed would've fixed half the problems with pets in pvp.

 

[WhiteWitch]

I hate "PvP tamers", having said this a tamer was a good choice for farming/PvM on Siege as the gear requirement isnt high, imbued was fine.
My Gargoyle tamer with a GD had a reasonable chance when I got attacked by a player, Im an *ok* mage PvPer and fought alongside the GD rather than "all kill" and run, having the pet prevented my lack of parry/wrestle or resist being too easy to exploit.

Fortunately I saw this nerf into the ground coming as soon as I saw the pub 97 changes and I set about changing that tamer into a dexxer, bit of hassle finding the scrolls and gear but you have to move with the times right, rather than living 15 or so years ago when tamers were actually a powerful template in either PvM or PvP.

I still have tamers on prodo but they wont ever set foot in Fel anyway as even with the new pet changes tamers are still useless for champ hunting compared to dexxer specs.

So its all good

 

[Great DC]

I agree that 50% across the board reduction is a bad idea, it just proves more that the devs have no idea to fix this mess. Melee damage and spell damage are completely different and needed to be treated as such. Offense wasn't the issue on pets, its the super high resists plus max hp. Teleporting was an issue and they got that right. It would be better to just have a max base damage for pets(i.e. 18-20) in pvp then have 50% across the board.

 

[Aeneas]

From the most recent Newsletter (found here: UO Newsletter ), there are some potential PVP related changes that were discussed in other threads in UHall.

Specifically, under "Animal Training Balancing" :

• Pets with magery mastery will no longer teleport to player targets.
• Removed spell damage increase cap damage versus pets. Increased player direct damage cap vs pets to account for max hit points.
• Corrected issue with special move cooldown for pets versus players.
• All pet damage is now reduced by 50% when targeting players.
• We will continue to make balance changes in the future based off 1 versus 1 scenarios.

These are great changes, especially the last one "continue make balance changes".

To make pvp less risk for a pet, they should remove the pet death -.1 skill point penalty in Fel (or death by player). Heck, I may kill my pet self to avoid that .1 skill reduction in tram. Some of the skills are hard to train.

 

[Slayvite]

There is no need to further discus "taming balance" in Fell.........with these changes, they have effectively killed it off already.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

with these changes, they have effectively killed it off already.

I don't think any of us can say the changes have killed off anything until we actually get to play around with it and see for ourselves.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

There is no need to further discus "taming balance" in Fell.........with these changes, they have effectively killed it off already.

The PvP elite win again, and maintain minority dominance by sheer wealth and vocality on the boards, they have maintained an item centric weapon user death grip on PvP.

You are right, I doubt we'll ever see another PvP tamer again in history, so much for this vaunted diversity thing going on.

I gave it my best shot for you guys.

Take a positive from it, you had an awesome patch.
(You just won't be able to play in Felucca).

My positive, it doesn't affect me at all, my pure mage was screwed up years ago.

I'll try and continue the fight for you guys in Fel, I'll try and comeback this weekend.

The elite will fall.

 

[TheDrAJ]

But the good news is all these changes (at least 3 that are terrible in my opinion) will go to test first and that is the time to express our displeasure to the developers for the changes not in a thread started by a moderator that handcuffed responses.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

Really good concept locking a thread that was derailed

The PvP elite win again, and maintain minority dominance by sheer wealth and vocality on the boards, they have maintained an item centric weapon user death grip on PvP.

You are right, I doubt we'll ever see another PvP tamer again in history, so much for this vaunted diversity thing going on.

I gave it my best shot for you guys.

Take a positive from it, you had an awesome patch.
(You just won't be able to play in Felucca).

My positive, it doesn't affect me at all, my pure mage was screwed up years ago.

I'll try and continue the fight for you guys in Fel, I'll try and comeback this weekend.

The elite will fall.

I'm personally glad they didn't listen to you, based on your wild accusations about europa alone. Rather them listen to the 'elite' whom actually care about balance then someone with delusional thoughts.

 

[cobb]

I would have to argue 50% reduction is actually not enough. When you take over 30 damage from regular hits (non specials), there is a serious problem

 

[Slayvite]

To be honest at this point, the 20th Anniversary better be something special as i'm finding it very hard to log in even to collect daily bods now.
I don't even think this will be a "break" time, i think this will be the delete account time.
I don't like the direction the game is currently going, being led by people who don't ............oh i cannot be bothered, you all know what i mean.

 

[cobb]

I'm not sure how long the weapon special cooldowns are going to be, but I would like to suggest an extra long cooldown for Dismount. 60 seconds at the minimum. Dismount is such a big game changer compared to other specials for pets

 

[cholupa]

There is no need to further discus "taming balance" in Fell.........with these changes, they have effectively killed it off already.

Personally I think even with the proposed changes, pvp tamers will remain one of the stronger temps in pvp

 

[cholupa]

no mention of the pet exploit of being able to insta log out a pet during the heat of battle by pressing log out...despite the fact this exploit was brought up during testing, good job, good job..

What is your obsession with wanting to kill ppl' s horses so badly?

 

[Mervyn]

What is your obsession with wanting to kill ppl' s horses so badly?

I just think it's a bit OP people being able to control their pets when dead...

Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead, Matthew 8:12

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Yet, i can probably put a video montage together which lasts maybe 10 minutes of @Mervyn dying and logging to save his pet.

 

[Mervyn]

annoying isn't it?

 

[Tyrath]

Looks to me like PvPrs pretty much got everything they wanted and nothing impacts PvM. Looks good to me but obviously getting everything asked for is still not good enough LOL.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

annoying isn't it?

Not really?

 

[MalagAste]

Looks to me like PvPrs pretty much got everything they wanted and nothing impacts PvM. Looks good to me but obviously getting everything asked for is still not good enough LOL.

Really? So I go to Fel to do a champ spawn on a crippled tamer... and that doesn't effect me??

 

[CovenantX]

Really? So I go to Fel to do a champ spawn on a crippled tamer... and that doesn't effect me??

Have you pvp'd since the pet revamp came out?

 

[MalagAste]

Have you pvp'd since the pet revamp came out?

Hasn't come out yet and doesn't matter... with all the cheats in place and such the only time I've ever had 1/2 a chance at PvP on a Tamer is when it first came out... before the started to cripple them... now it's back to where it was before they beefed up my pets... and now the attackers have them too making any attempt for me to try to PvP a complete waste of my time.

 

[Tyrath]

Really? So I go to Fel to do a champ spawn on a crippled tamer... and that doesn't effect me??

Sorry but with changes or without 99% of PvMrs are going to die its not going to improve your chances of keeping the spawn at all crippled or not.

 

[CovenantX]

Hasn't come out yet and doesn't matter... with all the cheats in place and such the only time I've ever had 1/2 a chance at PvP on a Tamer is when it first came out... before the started to cripple them... now it's back to where it was before they beefed up my pets... and now the attackers have them too making any attempt for me to try to PvP a complete waste of my time.

I wasn't talking about what's mentioned in the news letter. I was talking about the pet revamp (publish 97).

If you haven't pvp'd since it went live, it doesn't effect you.

You (and many other non-pvpers) said many times before that "you're okay with balancing as long as it doesn't effect pvm", The news letter mentions nothing that effects pvm... So, what's the problem?

 

[Kloud]

@Aeyko @Cetric

 

[cobb]

Really? So I go to Fel to do a champ spawn on a crippled tamer... and that doesn't effect me??

Crippled tamer? No, you will be on a balanced tamer after the changes, which btw have zero effect on pvm

 

[Cetric]

The changes make the pets what many asked them to be pre publish, that being that the pet wasn't the primary high damage end of the offense, it is the utility to the player with good damage (not more damage output than than the player)

They also fixed oversights like teleport and some of the inability to kill a pet.

My only addition wod be to add additional slayer properties such a s those for nightmares.

I've posted the damage difference in maximum melee with 30% dmg reduction vs 50. Yes it is a big difference, but again, it forces the let's to be a utility. They still hit more than ever with 120 wrestling, and get all the abilities, with less damage.

I think this, in addition to fixing cool down on specials. This covers the majority of the issues, but still think pets could use more ability to damage them, like slayers.

 

[Cetric]

Personally I think even with the proposed changes, pvp tamers will remain one of the stronger temps in pvp

Yes they will, but huge difference between strong temp and overpowered. There's lots of strong temps, and the players behind them will make more difference

 

[Prince Erik]

I have to be 100% honest, from my point of view and how I play the game these changes don't bother me since they do not mess with my PVM pets. In the rare times I've done a fel spawn it was mostly with a lumber pally or a disco archer anyhow. Even then if there was a raid I was toast. Even pre nerf I'd not have bothered with taking a tamer.

 

[skett]

It seem strange discussing something that hasn't been tested yet and I hope after these changes go live everyone gives the changes 3 to 6 months to evaluate any changes that need to be made.
All templates at some point have to learn to adapt in UO.

Personally though I feel some of these changes where needed and I im not a pvper although I try miserably.

 

[Cetric]

I have to be 100% honest, from my point of view and how I play the game these changes don't bother me since they do not mess with my PVM pets. In the rare times I've done a fel spawn it was mostly with a lumber pally or a disco archer anyhow. Even then if there was a raid I was toast. Even pre nerf I'd not have bothered with taking a tamer.

Good reasoning. That's what some of these guys referring to the let defending them don't understand. They think they should be able to run their pvm template and hide behind this crazy overpowered pet that is killing spawn as well as defending them. Reality is they are gunna die one way or the other.

 

[Cetric]

It seem strange discussing something that hasn't been tested yet and I hope after these changes go live everyone gives the changes 3 to 6 months to evaluate any changes that need to be made.
All templates at some point have to learn to adapt in UO.

Personally though I feel some of these changes where needed and I im not a pvper although I try miserably.

Only part to test is how much damage pets take from direct damage now. The others are just math. Hell the 50% dmg reduction was already on test, and was changed to 30% based on basically one person's bias reasoning. We've ready seen it in action and it was fine and still powerful. I remember being shocked when they modified the 50 to 30 ( drooling over how funny the pets would be really lol)

 

[Tyrath]

What I am most looking forward to is going live and the PvP Tamers complaining about their new template getting nerfed and the pro nerf PvPs chiming in and the epic flame wars that are sure to follow......

 

[MalagAste]

What I am most looking forward to is going live and the PvP Tamers complaining about their new template getting nerfed and the pro nerf PvPs chiming in and the epic flame wars that are sure to follow......

board warriors

 

[Giles]

But the good news is all these changes (at least 3 that are terrible in my opinion) will go to test first and that is the time to express our displeasure to the developers for the changes not in a thread started by a moderator that handcuffed responses.

I have to agree, the moderator that started this post has not been very unbiased in his posts on the other recent threads

 

[aghori]

I'm so glad the devs are going to tone down these pets in pvp. I was so close to quitting. I've never played on a free server, but I actually spent a good chunk of time yesterday looking for alternatives to the official servers. Lol. Glad I don't have to do that now

 

[Fire Warrior]

This is pretty typical. PVP is always done last instead of first - which is why they have so many issues with it. If they would put PVP considerations more at the front - they WOULDN'T have to do as much on PVP balancing later. Not meaning to be harsh here but its been a long term issue with UO. Devs should realize they sort of did the changes backwards. PvP balance first, then off of that solid foundation - add in PVM stuff that doesn't mess it up - then you are in good shape to tweak without disrupting so many players. This has nothing to do with favoring a playstyle - just a reality of game dynamics involved with testing, playing, building characters, changing them, using them etc. PVP is often done last because there are less of them, but I have always argued it should be first and primary - why, because when PVP is done right.... PVM can be done with a freer hand - without worrying about imbalancing this feature or that feature. Why? Because pvpers are the best game testers, period. They always find the bugs first, the holes first, you name it. Now some people might not 'like' that this is true - but it is. This doesn't mean PVPERs are better people or players than anyone - but it does help game development flow more smoothly, IMO.

How does this approach benefit PVM? Simple;

PVM when implemented with consideration to PVP, rather than done singularly first and then PVP 'adjusted later' is because it saves development time. Less dev time on 'fixing' imbalances means more time to do PVM right and ONCE. This saves PVMer's TONS of time in the long run. If it was done this way you would not see AS MANY changes right after big publishes etc.

Why does this dynamic exist? IMO its because the people that do development logically think they should cater to their largest player base. Generally this is right. However, when it comes to changes that affect 'everyone' - PVPER's are superior testers, period. Why? We play ALL TEMPLATES, and if a new one emerges, we do it FIRST. Again this is going to sound nauseating to some, but bear with me; Other players DO NOT DO THIS. So while they may be expert on one template they are very ignorant on many other things. This is fine! They don't have the time or take the time. No big deal - this isn't a judgment, just a relative fact.

Some PVPer's are biased and have agendas and preferences and are not objective or considerate of PVM concerns and of course thats an issue. However, when it comes to seeing 'big problems' or 'big things wrong' you can't beat them for testing - they will 'find the hole'.

So can we all benefit from this consideration??? Great Question. I think mainly I would suggest for the future to hand pick some players/volunteers to help beta test specific issues the next time big publishes come around. Maybe they already do this I don't know. Past dev teams did this and it was very successful in narrowing down PVP issues, which of course made for more efficient and successful balancing - with a decent amount of approval at least from the PVP crowd. The other idea would be to have some exclusive PVM'ers as part of the testing group if they can find some who would like to do so. I find that cooperative approaches in testing are extremely effective in saving alot of uneccessary hand wringing after every publish.

I do have one last thing to suggest. If this was ever done, the testers should be encouraged to use every bug, every exploit etc without complaint during the testing. In short, use people that know how to exploit every last darn thing. People that sploit will do it anyway - the devs might as well take advantage of their very useful knowledge and experience - for basically free. Its been done before, and I do advocate for it now. Will save everyone grief later. Just an opinion from a longtime player who has seen many 'teams' come and go.

 

[WhiteWitch]

I wish they would apply this nerf to TRAINED pets only, pets like GDs were not a PvP issue before pub 97, their damage output has not changed at all, reducing it by 50% makes them useless

 

[cobb]

I wish they would apply this nerf to TRAINED pets only, pets like GDs were not a PvP issue before pub 97, their damage output has not changed at all, reducing it by 50% makes them useless

That is not a bad idea actually. It would also help prevent VVV horses from getting one shotted with the removal of the 35 damage AI cap vs pets.

 

[arkiu]

Can someone explain to me why the newletter isn't immediately available on their website. Why do you have to sign up for it????? Any possible changes to the game should be on public to view at anytime. In this newsletter does it say proposed?? Are they looking for feedback before doing this? Judging by all past feedbacks, it probably wont be done right.

Um because posting the newsletter on their website would make sense? Heh. Newbie. Roxxored you with my 5 slot fire breathing, diaper wearing t-rex.

 

[arkiu]

Rekt

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I have to agree, the moderator that started this post has not been very unbiased in his posts on the other recent threads

As a past staff member I take exception to this...

Staff are volunteers (for the largest majority of them at any rate) and have to balance posting in an official capacity as well as posting in a personal capacity. When they are posting "on topic" they are speaking for themselves and themselves alone.. and at that time can be just as biased as the rest of us....

 

[Mervyn]

okay so here were my issues that i brought up on Test Centre that were COMPLETELY IGNORED:




On Classic client you lose the health bar when someone mounts a pet (Friend/Foe)
You're trying to switch between targetting someone's 5 slot mount and the player, and the guy mounts/dismounts, you can't target jack, especially with people running on EC, they skip around the screen, you've got 0 chance of pulling both bars on classic client.

Classic client when a pet takes damage the numbers come up RED (which is supposed to be for damage dealt) instead of YELLOW.
So from the other side, you're riding your own 5 slot mount, you dismount/get dismounted and say all kill, on classic you can't tell whether your pet has just been pwned for 40 damage or if you've damaged the enemy for
40 damage.. and you might say, ah well you should have your own pet's healthbar up to tell...please see above!

Various exploits with insta stable/retrieve from stable auto pet log out/in.
...

Missing information on animal lore gump regarding VvV mount's battle readiness status (both clients)
So in the middle of a fight your pet gets killed and goes poof, or even when you're just riding it, it randomly dissapears on a rare occassion and you're suddenly footed. AND they STILL haven't fixed the "essence of courage" it only gives the mount 1/20 readiness for 250 silver, when you can buy a new horse which comes with 8/20 readiness for 500 silver.



"Which of the two do you want me to release to you? And they said "Barabbas" @Kyronix said to them "then what shall I do with Mervyn? They all said "Let him be crucified!" Matthew 27:21