Some thoughts about ruleset

[FrejaSP]

Sorry MalagAsta, my reply was to Petemage, I stopped trying to make you understand me years ago, when it comes to PvP. I left your Trammel facet alone just like I left the Fel facet alone, you can stay in Trammel and keep your event there and nothing will changes for you, no VvV in Trammel, no PvP unless inside guilds/allies or in warring guilds.

 

[FrejaSP]

But you intend to having people change the switch, don't you? So I ask myself, why should I even want to in the first place?

That is their choice, some may do, some may not. If you like to be 100% safe, don't switch to Fel ruleset and stay out of the Felucca facet. You may see a few reds on the neutral facets but they can't hurt you.

 

[Giggles]

So In a nutshell to make sure I understand,
Tram is still safe for tram people, tram people are still unsafe in fel, but neutral zones reds can now enter and fight each other, and blues can also enter and not be harmed and can watch the fighting? Oh and reds can gather more resources from neutral zones... right?

I honestly still really do not see the point to all this. PvPers have a hard enough time finding open world pvp outside of Idocs and Yew gate... adding an entire new facets to the equation will not help anything. Tram players can already watch pvpers via guard zones in yew gate. And who the heck farms resources anywhere other than fel to begin with? Unless you are talking the underworld and essences and stuff like that, and if you are... no. There would not be enough risk involved to the fel players on any server outside of Atlantic. We would just have a bunch of EM style group throwers farming the hell out of a "dead" server to xfer resources to Atlantic. It would interfere with the "tram" players who are also trying to hunt/farm without interruption on their little home server.

The only other alternative which is something that was already proposed and shot down, would be to have VvV participants able to attack each other in tram.

I don't see how this will really help anything, and all I see is more of a coding nightmare and unforeseen new and improved ways for either side to grief one another. Our dev team already has their hands full with trying to update content and builds and the math behind certain builds. I personally would be rather disgusted and disheartened if they wasted any time on making a way for fel players to farm additional resources. Thats like, the last thing anyone needs right now in UO.

 

[FrejaSP]

So In a nutshell to make sure I understand,
Tram is still safe for tram people, tram people are still unsafe in fel, but neutral zones reds can now enter and fight each other, and blues can also enter and not be harmed and can watch the fighting? Oh and reds can gather more resources from neutral zones... right?

Yes that is right

I honestly still really do not see the point to all this. PvPers have a hard enough time finding open world pvp outside of Idocs and Yew gate... adding an entire new facets to the equation will not help anything. Tram players can already watch pvpers via guard zones in yew gate.

Yes it may not make it easier for the PvP'ers to find a fight and it may even make Felucca more peaceful. That PvP Trammel players see at the Yew Gate is different from the fights they may see in the Neutral facets. I did not say it would be perfect for all.
Lets take an IDOC in Malas, right now, there is no fights but with my changes, I'm sure some will go on their PvP char and look for a fight too.

And who the heck farms resources anywhere other than fel to begin with? Unless you are talking the underworld and essences and stuff like that, and if you are... no. There would not be enough risk involved to the fel players on any server outside of Atlantic. We would just have a bunch of EM style group throwers farming the hell out of a "dead" server to xfer resources to Atlantic. It would interfere with the "tram" players who are also trying to hunt/farm without interruption on their little home server.

If you got Fel bonus on the neutral facets too if you turned PvP on, would you then go on a Tram char gathering Essences in Abyss if you got 2x the essences on your Fel char? Yes you risk a fight and lose the essences, but if you like PvP, I believe it would be a little more exciting too.
It may changes some thing, also about dead shards but I believe it would be to the better.

 

[Lord Frodo]

If you got Fel bonus on the neutral facets too if you turned PvP on, would you then go on a Tram char gathering Essences in Abyss if you got 2x the essences on your Fel char? Yes you risk a fight and lose the essences, but if you like PvP, I believe it would be a little more exciting too.
It may changes some thing, also about dead shards but I believe it would be to the better.

Is FEL that over crowded that they need to expand out to other facets or is this just another ploy to try and turn more people into sheep. This hurts PvP tremendously but gives the hidden PKer more sheep to fleece. Fel players are more than welcome to come to any facet and work at what ever they want to but honestly alls you are attempting to do is further stretch out the PvPers and give more places for double resource scripters to hide and PKers more sheep to fleece. IMHO this is nothing more than a ploy to give PKers more spawns to run because FEL is dead and there are no more SHEEP to be had. Nothing you propose or the DEVs have tried will ever bring people back to FEL like it was before the split and guess what the players left in droves never to return. You can blame this on all the little children and their foul little mouths and you truly think we want that back, if we did we could easily go to FEL for a visit or better yet just log on to Atl and listen to Gen Chat to get our fill. Yes there were HONORABLE PvPers and PK kill squads but even they could not control the children so EA forced UO to fix it and the fastest way was to mirror FEL and make TRAM before all the subs ran out from players that refused to log on.

Here is what your "FIX" does in a nut shell
Creates a programing nightmare for an overworked, understaffed DEV team
Gives scripter more places to hide
Gives more places for PKers to look for sheep
Stretches the PvPers out even more

YES I was there and no matter what you do will bring me back and for those that want to can go to FEL anytime they want but guess what they aren't going are they so you want to expand your hunting area for your RED PKers and Scripters, good try.

If FEL was so great then there might be a need for this but why would you want to expand a ghost town even further?

 

[FrejaSP]

Dear Frodo, you know very well, when it comes to Fel vs Tram debats, you are on my ignore list as you brings nothing positive to the debat

 

[Lord Frodo]

Dear Frodo, you know very well, when it comes to Fel vs Tram debats, you are on my ignore list as you brings nothing positive to the debat

Sorry if the truth hurts and sorry you didn't get the warm and fuzzy great idea. Is SP that dead that we are now trying to "FIX" the other Shards too. Do the other Shards really need "FIXED"?

 

[FrejaSP]

SP is not dead, think we proved that with our Christmas tree building, keep eyes on the Skara one, we may finish it before any other shard

 

[Lord Frodo]

Guess that answers that. The other Shards do not need "FIXED"

 

[FrejaSP]

Frodo just leave my thread, please

 

[Tina Small]

Something that I would enjoy trying and that I think others might want to try also is a shard with the Siege ruleset minus the nonconsensual PvP, i.e., no insurance, one character per account, start with practically nothing, can't sell to NPCs, no transfers to/from other shards, RoT for skill gains, etc. Just throwing the idea out there, Freja, even though it's not really relevant to your suggestions.

I think quite a few folks like the challenge of starting fresh on Siege and building up from scratch and bartering/trading with others because of the inability to just create more characters and be super-self-sufficient. However, I think many folks have just grown tired of most aspects of nonconsensual PvP because it can be a too real, too harsh reminder of a lot of what's ugly in real life when all you really want to do is escape into a game for a while, challenge yourself and enjoy being around like-minded folks.

 

[Spock's Beard]

So basically you implement this incredibly complex ruleset change, and the only real difference is that someday maybe, just maybe, Joe Trammie might see someone run by doing PVP in Ilshenar or something? Talk about a ton of work for no real purpose.

 

[Vet]

[QUOTE="Vet, post: 2791466, member: 191918"...shes been at suggesting this action for MANY years, and her and I have had it out more than once.

"Joined: Dec 8, 2016"

Wat?[/QUOTE]
Wat Wat? Stratics has in the past been a full fledged member of the the nazi internet and I gave em the old heave ho long many years ago. Now Im stuck coming back because this is the only way I seem to be able to contact BS, altho they never seem to respond either. Guarantee I was in beta and around in UO looooong before stratics ever existed.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Frodo just leave my thread, please

If it affects my game then I have every right to state my opinion, sorry not all of us are pom pom wavers. You post stuff and think it is all positive when in fact there is a ton of negative to this proposal and it appears that alls the DEVs have to do is flip a switch and walla you get your wish. FELL is a GHOST TOWN and you want to extend that everywhere but TRAM. You want to give SCRIPTERS even more places to hide with double resources. You think this will give more PvP when in fact it will spread the PvPers over more lands making it harder to find fights. It will give potentially PKers more SHEEP when they camp all the other spawns that are not under the FEL rule set.

 

[FrejaSP]

If it affects my game then I have every right to state my opinion, sorry not all of us are pom pom wavers.

Then try to be more serios and less trolling

You post stuff and think it is all positive when in fact there is a ton of negative to this proposal and it appears that alls the DEVs have to do is flip a switch and walla you get your wish.

Again try to be serios and try with some more constructive input

FELL is a GHOST TOWN and you want to extend that everywhere but TRAM. You want to give SCRIPTERS even more places to hide with double resources.

That show, you have not even read it, the scripters will only get double resources if they switch to Fel ruleset for their char, that mean, they can be killed, If a Tram char see them, I'm sure he will call a Fel char friend to help him kill the scripter.
There is no reason this Neutral facets should become ghost towns as the Tram chars can play as they use to do without risk

You think this will give more PvP when in fact it will spread the PvPers over more lands making it harder to find fights. It will give potentially PKers more SHEEP when they camp all the other spawns that are not under the FEL rule set.

They can't camp them all and most hunting there will be tram chars, they can't kill. The ones who choose to turn Fel ruleset on for their char won't be sheep, they will be ready to fight back.

Fel will still be the only place you can attack everyone.

We may need a fix to the ghost cams, just make it so when body decay, the ghost are teleported to a town healer.

 

[FrejaSP]

Something that I would enjoy trying and that I think others might want to try also is a shard with the Siege ruleset minus the nonconsensual PvP, i.e., no insurance, one character per account, start with practically nothing, can't sell to NPCs, no transfers to/from other shards, RoT for skill gains, etc. Just throwing the idea out there, Freja, even though it's not really relevant to your suggestions.

There are some good sides with the Siege ruleset other than the nonconsensual PvP, even when I do not agree the one char on an account is a good thing. It stop a lot from playing Siege. Some of us can easy afford more accounts and get more chars, but a lot can't. As it is a RP game, players like playing several roles.

QUOTE="Tina Small, post: 2791990, member: 433"]I think quite a few folks like the challenge of starting fresh on Siege and building up from scratch and bartering/trading with others because of the inability to just create more characters and be super-self-sufficient. However, I think many folks have just grown tired of most aspects of nonconsensual PvP because it can be a too real, too harsh reminder of a lot of what's ugly in real life when all you really want to do is escape into a game for a while, challenge yourself and enjoy being around like-minded folks. [/QUOTE]

I really believe the expensive and special suits for the char is what stop players PvP. You can't just find a perfect suit on a vendor, that will support your skills and help you do well in PvP. If skills did mean more and items less, more would be willing to PvP and risk losing a suit. A perfect PvP suit can easy cost a few mills and the one who kill you can't really use it, because it do not fit his skills.

 

[Eärendil]

No No No No No concessions to reds. NO THANK YOU!

However, I think many folks have just grown tired of most aspects of nonconsensual PvP because it can be a too real, too harsh reminder of a lot of what's ugly in real life when all you really want to do is escape into a game for a while, challenge yourself and enjoy being around like-minded folks.

Most intelligent remark in this whole thread: Accept it like it is: 99 % of the players just dont want to pay their accounts for being harrassed by jerks. I wachted a documentary about the history of computer games where a US professor analyzed the development of UO and similar phenomenons from the 1990s. His statement: Open world non-consensual PVP only works for a small group of people. Most people have an investment-turnout-calculation in their brains: If they see that they pay their 10+ bucks for being prey of schoolyard-jerks, they stop paying. UO learned this lesson over a decade ago and almost no modern game uses this concept anymore. Everybody who tells another story has just no idea of how the gaming industry works - and of course no idea of the uses and gratifications gaming recipients expect from gaming (in their majority).

But I bet 1 platinum Altantic gold that certain folks will never understand one simple fact: TRAMMEL SAVED UO! The carebears are your guarantee for your little life in your PVP-niche. They own the large majority of accounts...

 

[Eärendil]

No only professors are dealing with this issue. Reknowned gaming editors, too: Watch this...


In the second part she dwells on the issue of nonconsensual PVP and why it is suicide for a company to allow it on a large scale...

 

[Eärendil]

Is FEL that over crowded that they need to expand out to other facets or is this just another ploy to try and turn more people into sheep. This hurts PvP tremendously but gives the hidden PKer more sheep to fleece. Fel players are more than welcome to come to any facet and work at what ever they want to but honestly alls you are attempting to do is further stretch out the PvPers and give more places for double resource scripters to hide and PKers more sheep to fleece. IMHO this is nothing more than a ploy to give PKers more spawns to run because FEL is dead and there are no more SHEEP to be had. Nothing you propose or the DEVs have tried will ever bring people back to FEL like it was before the split and guess what the players left in droves never to return. You can blame this on all the little children and their foul little mouths and you truly think we want that back, if we did we could easily go to FEL for a visit or better yet just log on to Atl and listen to Gen Chat to get our fill. Yes there were HONORABLE PvPers and PK kill squads but even they could not control the children so EA forced UO to fix it and the fastest way was to mirror FEL and make TRAM before all the subs ran out from players that refused to log on.

Here is what your "FIX" does in a nut shell
Creates a programing nightmare for an overworked, understaffed DEV team
Gives scripter more places to hide
Gives more places for PKers to look for sheep
Stretches the PvPers out even more

YES I was there and no matter what you do will bring me back and for those that want to can go to FEL anytime they want but guess what they aren't going are they so you want to expand your hunting area for your RED PKers and Scripters, good try.

If FEL was so great then there might be a need for this but why would you want to expand a ghost town even further?

He is right.

 

[FrejaSP]

I did understand... but lets say your at an EM Event with lets say a typical GLs event where we "know" there is likely to be a Boss and Drop so at least 60 people... Lets say of those 60 ... 30 of them are toggled to PvP... Same problem... It WILL become a cluster because now 30 people are there who can accidentally or on purpose attack other players with anything from EV's to RC's and anything else... And it WOULD happen and someone WOULD cry, piss and moan about not getting a drop because they got ganked by XyZ player and his Bro's...

If this 30 players choose to go on their PvP char (Fel ruleset), they should know, they can be attacked. The ones who go on their non PvP char (Tram ruleset) can't be attacked of other players or their EV's.
So I really don't see a problem here. You choose if you are open for PvP or not

Whether or not I am or am NOT in the PvP it WILL disrupt things people do in Tram. Fel has no business in Tram... Just like if I go to Fel or Siege I know the risks... and I understand them the moment I set foot there.

Trammel is one facet, it will stay as it is, no matter if people have their Fel switch on, they can't attack in Trammel unless in guildwars.
The Neutral sones, only chars with Fel switch on can be attacked, chars with Tram switch on will be safe as always.
On the Felucca facet, nothing changes, even with your Tram switch on, you can be attacked there.

The implications of having blue healers vs catastrophic disruption of Events and everything else as well as all the Coding that would be involved to do such a thing is a massive issue that honestly isn't worth the effort or time IMO.

I really don't understand your problem here. If someone want PvP to be a part of the event, let them, you will still be safe and can focus on the boss and your EV's won't attack any players.

If people really wanted more folk into PvP they need to a) stop the cheats and hacks b) make getting killed in PvP less of a PITA c)Give a good reason and reward for it... As it is the Risk vs Reward BS of powerscrolls and everything else is just straight up BS... All that did was make some Fel guilds EXTREMELY rich... and make many of the non-PvPers resent them even more... IMO it had a negative impact on making PvP more appealing...

What about all the cheaters in trammel zone, do you really believe only PvP'ers do cheat? When a non PvP'er go to Fel, he think he should be able to fight players as well as he do solo big bosses. The problem is, he will sucks vs a PvP player as he do not know how to PvP, just like I sucks vs big Bosses, I don't know how to kill them.

One of my biggest beefs with it is them taking out the bounty system for starters though I do understand it was EXTREMELY abused... But there ought to be some sort of reason to do it... VvV is a load of hogwash as well... Many just join for the cheap arties... That's been an issue since they put that in Factions...

The problem is, you can use them on facets where VvV is not active. Lets say VvV was active on all facets but Trammel, how many do you believe would use this VvV items if they had to be open for PvP to use them?

Honestly if I could think of something that would work to bring more "fun" to PvP I would post it as a suggestion...

PvP get more fun for me when I know the ones I'm fighting. I always loved interact with local PK's who would res and maybe chat a little before they moved on.

I used to enjoy it once upon a time but that was long time ago and mostly it was about the RP aspect of it... kill the vampires, orcs, urcs, savages what have you and keep the cities safe, it was a job and I enjoyed it. But since those days are dying or dead or long forgotten and I don't see that ever coming back since we have moved the game away from community and toward soloism and greed and as the community dies so does interest in RP.

There will be way more chance for RP, when you spreed the PvP to more facets, we had a lot of RP guilds on Siege in the past.

While yes back in the day people "had" to band together to do things and "had" to defend themselves and their buds to get anywhere that was also NOT fun... I'm sorry but after I spend 2 hours or more gathering resources or working a champ spawn the last thing I want is for some (&*$($ hole to come along and take it in a .2 second battle where I am para ganked by odds of 6 vs 1 ..... I do not find that "fun" on either side or "enjoyable"... and losing the hard earned gains is just salt in the wound.

Band together did help keeping you safe however I choose to run alone most of the time. Except for a few Jerks, most was cool and not all would loot. Also it was a matter of having backup suits ready so you easy could get back to what you was doing.
I placed my first house in a PK village, I did not know but after a few deads, I got along fine with them. I was Lucky someone har told me to get a vendor and a keyring for my key and then place it on vendor so I would not get it looted if I died. Tracking was a must too before I Tool the key to unlock door, open door, drop key back on vendor, go in and close door.

Most people remember these days fondly because it was THEM making the killing and taking all the reward... the rest of the "sheeple" don't really think that was "fun" ... Infact most of them left in droves and will NEVER return.

That did not count for me, I was the one getting killed, then many of the killers took the time to learn me a few tricks to how to do better in PvP. I did not kill anyone but I had fun. The same PK rarely killed me more than one time or if he did, he did not loot next time. But Iknow, I'm not like most, I'm legend PK tamer

 

[MalagAste]

@FrejaSP ... You just don't get it do you? It's not about them attacking me or my EV attacking anyone... It's about disruption of the Events...

You stick all those people in one place that have that silly "switch" turned on and it's bound to happen that THEY will be casting EV's and whatnot which will attack others there who also have the "switch" turned on causing a cluster and a mess in the midst of trying to focus on the event you get a bunch of childish nutters going about attacking one another...

And on the other side of that coin... Those who do turn on the "switch" ..... won't be able to attend events like that and actually participate in a way that will be beneficial to getting a drop or anything because they'd always have to worry about what they cast to not hit someone else... so EV's and such would be out and don't tell me that EV's don't attack others... I've been Orange... I've been in Factions etc... they do. While they wouldn't attack "blues" Don't you think that anyone with the switch on would be your "enemy"... if you had it on too???

And you don't think that would cause issues???

Totally daft if you ask me. And you think they won't bring those characters to events??? If you don't bring them to where the people are what's the point of having it on anyway???

Honestly leave fel in fel. Don't try to make everything fel everywhere even if it is a switch for those who want it... no it'd disrupt things for those who would rather that crap stayed in Fel where it belongs. Bad enough we have to put up with all that Fel chatter in Gen Chat...

 

[FrejaSP]

You just don't get it do you?

Nope I don't

You stick all those people in one place that have that silly "switch" turned on and it's bound to happen that THEY will be casting EV's and whatnot which will attack others there who also have the "switch" turned on causing a cluster and a mess in the midst of trying to focus on the event you get a bunch of childish nutters going about attacking one another...

I am VvV, I know very well not to cast EV's at EM events and White net toss, I use my bow, that's works fine, I'm sure Pets will works fine too or summons you can control. Sure I risk, an other VvV want to fight me, byt I could easy choose a non VvV char, so I don't see the problem here.

And on the other side of that coin... Those who do turn on the "switch" ..... won't be able to attend events like that and actually participate in a way that will be beneficial to getting a drop or anything because they'd always have to worry about what they cast to not hit someone else... so EV's and such would be out and don't tell me that EV's don't attack others... I've been Orange... I've been in Factions etc... they do. While they wouldn't attack "blues" Don't you think that anyone with the switch on would be your "enemy"... if you had it on too???

EV's are not the only way to fights mobs, your Prodo players do have 7 chars so I'm sure they can find a char who do not need EV's

And you don't think that would cause issues???

No, we do not have much trouble with it on Siege.

Honestly leave fel in fel. Don't try to make everything fel everywhere even if it is a switch for those who want it... no it'd disrupt things for those who would rather that crap stayed in Fel where it belongs. Bad enough we have to put up with all that Fel chatter in Gen Chat...

Who say it belong in Fel? I would say Trammel Code should only be in Trammel if I could choose. Now I know that's to late but it's not to late to balance it a little.

 

[Eärendil]

Nobody wants that. Let it go.

 

[Obsidian]

I'd rather they take the lowest population Prodo Server from each region (excepting Siege and Mugen) and make it Fel Ruleset everywhere and turn off PvP on all other servers. Give every character a transfer token and say "Have at thee". No other rule changes, then they can make balancing changes for PvP that only go into those few servers and let the rest of the folks who don't PvP not have to deal with the side effects in PvE.

I was thinking the opposite... take several low populated servers (and make them Tram ruleset only.

But I don't buy into Freja's identification of the problem up front. I regularly run between Fel and Tram rulesets based on what I want to do. I would never want it to be an absolute while some content is only in PvP lands such as power scrolls. Make the champ spawns in Ilshenar drop power scrolls then I am ok with a binary decision. Otherwise flexibility is essential.

The opposite argument is also valid. The PvP players need access to all content. With the effective removal of Reds via VvV, this has been achieved from this angle.

 

[FrejaSP]

Make the champ spawns in Ilshenar drop power scrolls then I am ok with a binary decision. Otherwise flexibility is essential.

With my system, Power scrolls could be a part of it, if you on a "Fel char" outside Felucca doing Champ spawn, you should have a better chance for the higher levels of power scroll. I really believe it is wrong, Tram Players are forced to Fel to get power scrolls but that's my opinion. I'm sure there could be other carrots useful for Fel, something PvP'ers want.

The opposite argument is also valid. The PvP players need access to all content. With the effective removal of Reds via VvV, this has been achieved from this angle.

Yes and no, they can go to other facets but as far I know, VvV players can't fight each others outside Fel

 

[Lord Frodo]

@FrejaSP I will tell you what, why don't we try your FEL/TRAM switch on SP first. We will just make a CON/NON-CON switch and those that wish to be attackable can be CON and those that want to be non-attackable can be NON-CON. You go get all the SP Players to agree to this and then come talk about trying to change our shards.

 

[Eärendil]

Good idea!

 

[MalagAste]

You know if people wanted Fel everywhere Siege would be full of people and busy...

I used to think that it was the insurance thing that kept folk from going to Siege... but I wonder if it's not more the 1 character restriction... Kinda like shorting your account or something to play there.

But it don't matter... really don't care for it.

We have Siege ..... let it go. I keep wondering why you keep bringing it up and I think it's just because you want to leave Siege behind but you don't want to lose the PvP everywhere so you want to change the rest of the game to suit you. But most of UO doesn't want that.

 

[petemage]

I really believe the expensive and special suits for the char is what stop players PvP. You can't just find a perfect suit on a vendor, that will support your skills and help you do well in PvP. If skills did mean more and items less, more would be willing to PvP and risk losing a suit. A perfect PvP suit can easy cost a few mills and the one who kill you can't really use it, because it do not fit his skills.

Uhm. I don't loose a single piece of my suit when I die. It's called insurance.

Still Fel is dead. Go figure. Couldn't disagree more on your reasoning about UO PvP.

 

[petemage]

I used to think that it was the insurance thing that kept folk from going to Siege... but I wonder if it's not more the 1 character restriction... Kinda like shorting your account or something to play there.

It's a ghost town. Nobody likes to play a MORPG where you only see people in a chat textbox.

 

[Dizzy]

I was away from UO for nearly 10 years. This same debate is unchanged. Heck, it might be the same thread.

I used to PVP, loved it. Had a mage and a warrior.

My gamer and crafter never go to Fel. Why would they?

I'm older and slower. I neither have the gear or reflexes to PVP. When I see a red, I usually don't even get a chance to run. Bam, I'm dead. I don't res in Fel, I just drag my sorry ghost back to Trammel and re-equip.

Those that love non-consensual PVP will never understand the vast majority of people just don't want anything to do with it.

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