Discussing Balance

[Acid Rain]

His point is that you can't use a two handed weapon, parry, and chug. Have to sacrifice something, Every class other than mages has to sacrifice something in order to Fully utilize Parrying.

Players have never been able to use 2-handed weps, utilize parry & chug. Being against an intentional game design & using that to bolster an argument seems a moot point to me. I understand his point & find it lacking merit.

If you've never seen the higher DPS that mystic/necro mages can throw out against a parry mage in a PvP situation then you haven't been fighting good players. I can suggest a few players on Atlantic if you wish.

Assuming Cursed Target
Necro Mage - Evil Omen, Explo, Flamestrike, Evil omen, Before Flamestrike Lands, Pain Spike. The Evil Omens turn a 15% Sdi mages spells into a 43% Sdi mages spells + The pain spike, but the time required to get in those 3 extra spells a pure mage can toss out a lightning or even two depending on your connection, resulting in roughly the same damage. Now factor the block chance and the success rate to get off the full combo and its obvious why players are playing pure parry mages.

Mystic Mage - Spell Plague + Explo + Flamestrike + Spell Trigger.
The total damage output isn't much higher than a pure scribe mage Lightning + explo + Flamestrike + Lightning (Same time to cast roughly). And the spell trigger is a one time use.

The other mage classes are better for Utility, but not for damage output.

In my experience the scenarios presented do not accurately depict the top damage casting available to both necro & mystic mages against a parry mage.
Both necro & mystics have spells available not included in your string of casting which would increase DPS thus out damage any parry mage.
Your 'factor' of block chance & 'success rate to get off the full combo" is irrelevant when comparing mage templates as it would never come into affect.
Spell trigger being 'a one time use' is also irrelevant because it's one time use is ~40 points of damage that can easily kill your opponent costing zero casting time.
Careful use of this 'one time' spell will insure you have time to recast before the next encounter as your enemy is enjoying his dirt nap.

I respectfully disagree that multiple casting disciplines do not add DPS exceeding that of a defensive parry mage.

 

[CovenantX]

Players have never been able to use 2-handed weps, utilize parry & chug. Being against an intentional game design & using that to bolster an argument seems a moot point to me. I understand his point & find it lacking merit.

If you've never seen the higher DPS that mystic/necro mages can throw out against a parry mage in a PvP situation then you haven't been fighting good players. I can suggest a few players on Atlantic if you wish.

Your counter to Parry receiving a re-balanced is because it's been this way for years? LOL, priceless.
Guess what else hasn't changed in years.. Archery, Guess what, the mastery sure as hell didn't make it as good as it is... Items were the only thing to change... why would archery need re-balancing?

No one used a parry-mage before global loot. if they did, the template failed them... the dex requirement was the main reason for that because you couldn't have a reasonable amount of dexterity without sacrificing something major for it be it int/mana or even str/hp. Now you can have ~95 dex with 10 dex real because of items + potions... it was a trade-off. now it's pretty much standard. much like most dexers having 100+ mana and 180+ stamina. It's been established that items are the only thing to change the balance in pvp over the last few years... with a few exceptions that no longer exist (holyfist bugs etc)

In my experience the scenarios presented do not accurately depict the top damage casting available to both necro & mystic mages against a parry mage. Both necro & mystics have spells available not included in your string of casting which would increase DPS thus out damage any parry mage.
Your 'factor' of block chance & 'success rate to get off the full combo" is irrelevant when comparing mage templates as it would never come into affect.
Spell trigger being 'a one time use' is also irrelevant because it's one time use is ~40 points of damage that can easily kill your opponent costing zero casting time.
Careful use of this 'one time' spell will insure you have time to recast before the next encounter as your enemy is enjoying his dirt nap.

I respectfully disagree that multiple casting disciplines do not add DPS exceeding that of a defensive parry mage.

I'm curious about the names of these people you're referring to.

You obviously missed the point with this statement...

Your 'factor' of block chance & 'success rate to get off the full combo" is irrelevant when comparing mage templates as it would never come into affect.

Omg...You don't say it doesn't matter mage vs mage? First, Do you even know what the difference is between a mage and a dexer? In case you haven't read this thread... mages vs mages are balanced. It's not because of the damage they do being different between focused spec and not. It's because of player-skill, totally different thing I said this already, it's exactly the same thing you're saying.....

I'll say it a slightly different way since you didn't understand it.

If you drop focus spec your DPS will go down regardless of extra spells that come into play. (even if both templates have parry).
Parry since it pretty much only effects dexers Parry = more spells will go off successfully. It's common knowledge, not rocket science.
On average your dps is based on spells going off or not. Naturally by lowering your SDI (rom 30-15% at the same time adding more spells to your combo (because that's what you have to do...) you add more chances to be interrupted while doing LESS Damage with the fewer spells you'd be casting as focus spec.

Obviously spell plague + something else will do more damage than just whatever follows. but it's another chance to be cancelled due to interruption. not to mention your explo/FS will do about ~4 & ~8 points less damage each. which is half of your one-time-use instant bombard anything that takes the place of bombard in combos to follow will either be longer cast-time or less damage.

The following tests are done without including interruptions. because you can't factor interruptions based on many different peoples timing<>reaction speed<>connection.

Tested without scribe it's also important to note the focus template will ALWAYS have room for another 1-2 skills.
Focus spec Curse+Explosion FS+Lightening = 33+42+19 = 94 6.25s = 15.04 5.0s = 18.8 dps while target remains cursed.
vs
Non-focus mystic Curse+Spell-plague+Exp+FS+Bombard = 25+ 28+11(SP-tick)+38+21* = 132 7s = 18.85 dps dropping down to 16.5 dps while target remains cursed (*trigger is a one-time use) The burst is potentially better with a mystic mage. but if your target lives through it. that's pretty much the only shot you have with that.

Now, that's mage vs mage. interruptions are based on timing (- casting focus) between the two players against "Good" mages, those combos will pretty much never go off, let alone even 2 5+ circle spells going off in succession.

with a dexer vs a mage it's different (this is also the point made that proves it's not balanced) a Parry-Mage has a 67.5% chance to not be hit - 7.5%(HLD) = 62% (it won't get lower than this) Dexers limited to 1.25s (or longer) between attacks that's also assuming you are within their attack range 100% of the time which NEVER happens unless one of the two players are afk/cliented...

All tests were done with unrealistic circumstances: either one or more of these will result in lowering dexer dps.

Against a pre-debuffed target 35(AI)+9(50%)+7(50%)x5 = 215 over 6s = 35.8 dps (100% chance to hit (This is not even possible anymore btw))
against a non-parry-mage = 50% chance to hit - 7.5%(HLD) = 42.5% after HLD We'll assume the target has HLD applied the whole time for argument sake.
= dps would be about 20.6 to a non-parry mage. (with HLD factored 100% of the time)
= dps would be 13.6 against a parry mage. (with HLD factored 100% of the time) - realistically it would be lower than this in every single situation.

DPS from an Archer = ~22.1 (average factoring only RNG) vs ~7.0 (average) dps of a mystic mage due to the mystic being hit. (this is assuming the dexer isn't losing stamina, the mage is always within range, and the archer is doing nothing but armor ignore, & HLD is permanently in affect on the mage.)
&
Archer ~14.2 (average factoring only RNG) vs ~11.6 (average) focus-parry-mage due to the parry-mage being hit (this is assuming the dexer isn't losing stamina, the mage is always within range, and the archer is doing nothing but armor ignore, & HLD is permanently in affect on the mage)

The reason the tests were done with extreme circumstances were to show how much it could be against someone who has absolutely no idea what to do in pvp. (they just stand there and die).

Now that's with unrealistic settings very heavily in favor of the dexer and the absolute most on average the mages dps/hps will be reduced by being hit during however much time the fight lasts.

It's near impossible to put a number on someones reaction speed, timing, & connection to make the most accurate balance between dexers & mages.

Dexers set the bar for how good the mages (Player skill) needs to be, by nerfing Ranged-weapons (which everyone seems to be in favor of, myself included) the parry-mage would be better than it is now against dexers if the block chance stays as is.

I suggested changing Parry chances down to 20% from 35% IF Parry is acting as a standalone skill Parry would gain the extra 15% (35%) parry chance from a weapon skill swords, fencing, macing, or throwing... in addition to removing the dexterity requirement for Parry altogether.
I say 20% because that's what it is with a dexer that has only a 1-handed weapon & no shield... except the dexer still has a disarm vulnerability. the mage would not, this is why it wouldn't be "Perfect", but it would indeed be more balanced than it is.


All I'm saying is if ranged weapons get a nerf, parry HAS to get a nerf as well it's simple.
I posted numbers because it's proof... Show us your proof that works against it.

We'll see if any useful information can be presented to the devs so that they can apply the appropriate changes.

 

[OREOGL]

parry HAS to get a nerf as well it's simple.

Nothing wrong with parry.

We hashed this out in another thread, and I recall the damage output for archery being within 10 or 20 in what was it, 10 seconds?

 

[Drowy]

Nothing wrong with parry.

We hashed this out in another thread, and I recall the damage output for archery being within 10 or 20 in what was it, 10 seconds?

Maybe not with parry, but with the focused mage/parry template.

 

[King Greg]

In my experience the scenarios presented do not accurately depict the top damage casting available to both necro & mystic mages against a parry mage.

If you think I'm making any comparison to mage vs mage with those dumps, you are out of your mind.

 

[CovenantX]

Nothing wrong with parry.

We hashed this out in another thread, and I recall the damage output for archery being within 10 or 20 in what was it, 10 seconds?

You're evidence in that thread was based on words with no accurate numbers to prove it as well.

 

[CovenantX]

a Parry-Mage has a 67.5% chance to not be hit - 7.5%(HLD) = 62% (it won't get lower than this)

To clarify why the chance goes from 67.5% to only 62% by taking away 7.5% from HLD, is because Parry chances are Not affected by HLD at all.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

There are several things wrong and several ways to fix them, just as there are several reason for why things are how they are. So, while I will try not to repeat most of what people have put already (Which most are correct or true) offer -REALISTIC- solutions that may not take tons of coding. Here are some of my suggestions, whether realistic or not.


Ranged Weapons Nerf

Ideas:
Increase SSI Cap (1.50)

Lessen Damage Inc Cap (This could be global for all weapons, not just ranged)

Lessen Hit spells % (Could be based off your SSI just like Mana Leech and such)


Pros:
Evens out some of the ranged dominance at the moment, thus perhaps varying templates more.

Cons:
Hurts PVMer DPS as well
Makes mages a little more out of balance, also requiring a nerf.


Pure Mage Nerf

Ideas:
Add skills to "Focus Mage" that breaks the SDI change (Alchemy, Parry, etc)

Lessen SDI increase from Focus

Make it so only wrestling gets parrying bonus (Or perhaps only a weapon skill) or add other requirements (HCI or a new property)

*One of my favorites* Make shields disarmable again


Pros:
Perhaps diversifies the mage templates more.


Cons:
Makes dexxers and archers more dominant than mages once again without other changes


Global Changes:


Exceptional item weights for imbuing should be increased:
With power creep, most of these items are irrelevant except for filler pieces. With legendary artifacts, you might have 1 or 2 imbued pieces (A ring perhaps, or 1 piece of armor) to compliment your suit. That is it. Increase the weights of everything at least by 100 if not more. This should be done ASAP because it hurts nothing at all in game.


Make PURE SKILL worth more than "Added" skill:
Set bonuses at points with real skill (100, 110, 120).
Example: Sure 120 parry is great, but that bonus 10% won't be there with your 100 real skill and +20 on a ring or brace.

Make shields disarmable again:
This makes dexxers more useful, and parrying nerfed a little

Let DCI be overcapped again:
A lot of mage weapon using templates will open back up with this change

Let specials stay procced even when spells are casted:
This will also open up several spell casting templates with dexxer variants

Let dexxers hit from 2 tiles away:
This one is tricky, because it can change a lot of balance in PVM, but PVP wise, will really make dexxers a little strong. Balance may be needed with specials and this change, however.

Nerf Alchemy:
Everyone is using it. Either cap it at 50%, or make it so it doesn't stack with EP and just get the 50% bonus with GM. Every 2 points of alchemy gives you 1% EP.

Change the double conflag pot. With clever usage of macros, a double conflag is viable. This makes for something a bit game breaking when mixed with 80% ep and multi pot throwers.

Supernovas should surely be looked at as well. Doing anywhere from 15-35 with 80% EP and a cursed target (Or Omened) this is a lot of damage for an AOE potion that can never miss. Perhaps a flat damage that isn't based on a resist? Or capped damage it can do (20 damage for instance)

Nerf 4/6 Chivalry:
A touchy subject because not all spells are "Broken". It needs to be looked at extensively. The simple fix is to increase the mana cost of a few spells (The Remove Curse, The Heal, The Cure) and/or for the remove curse, make the spell slower, or not remove ALL the curses. Only a random few.

You could also (Or instead) add a complementary skill to chivalry. The argument to this is simple... Mage/Eval - Mystic/Focus - Necro/SS. Some may argue to do the same to spellweaving, which is also true though.


Let true artifacts and items be imbuable:
There is no reason and no "BALANCE" that should be claimed against this. True artifacts are meant to be the most powerful in the game. Times change, and so does power creep, but come on. It was in the game once. A weight increase should also be implemented. At least up to 700-800 on armor. Weapons may need to be looked at (600 for archer, 650 for 1 handers, 750 for 2 handers perhaps)





These are just a few SIMPLE changes that could make a huge difference in the gameplay of a lot (PVMers & PVPers alike) of people for the better.

@Bleak I've started to give up with writing out well thought out processes, because there are generally ignored by the DEVs and pushed aside. I hope with your asking of thoughts from the public, you actually intend to take some of the great ideas presented by people and use them. We look forward to your hard work and implementation of these things. We are very passionate about your product, please show us the same in return.

 

[OREOGL]

Maybe not with parry, but with the focused mage/parry template.

Nothing wrong with this template either

 

[OREOGL]

You're evidence in that thread was based on words with no accurate numbers to prove it as well.

Funny, you could say the same about yours.

 

[CovenantX]

Funny, you could say the same about yours.

show us the proof. (I've done so)


Edit: I'm not trying to be an a**-****, but bring up a valid point that makes sense, I'll respectfully disagree IF I see flaws, if not more power to you...

I'm not here to argue he said, she said. the devs can assume what they want with my opinions regarding whether or not I (or anyone else) have any hidden agendas. i.e knowing of something they're not sharing so that they can abuse it after whichever changes take place.

It's going to take work on their end as far as balancing regardless if they use our suggestions or not.

 

[-Hey Arnold-]

The only things that needs a bit of change are archery (running shot) and parry. Maybe im a bit biased as i only play a mystic with a mage weapon for the most part its pretty hard to play. I have been 150 hit points to 0 while chugging pots in like 6 seconds running in a straight line to running shots. I think running shot should be used as a "finishing move" not the main source of damage. I see some people suggesting lowering the speed to 1.5 but almost every high skilled archer only runs 1.5. I think you have to lower the damage and lower the hci of running shot..tho i think if you miss it should not cost mana or if it does half of the mana of what it is suppose to cost. (i think leet suggested this). If running shot is changed i think you have to lower the parry % chance as well. Alchy is fine 30sdi mages are fine.

 

[OREOGL]

show us the proof. (I've done so)


Edit: I'm not trying to be an a**-****, but bring up a valid point that makes sense, I'll respectfully disagree IF I see flaws, if not more power to you...

I'm not here to argue he said, she said. the devs can assume what they want with my opinions regarding whether or not I (or anyone else) have any hidden agendas. i.e knowing of something they're not sharing so that they can abuse it after whichever changes take place.

It's going to take work on their end as far as balancing regardless if they use our suggestions or not.

You used numbers i just used from a scribe mage @ 33 sdi with a target cursed.


Curse (1.25s-.5swith fc2= .75s) (defender apple) + recurse(1.25s-.5s = .75s ) = so Curse = 1.5 seconds + Explosion (1.75s - .5 seconds = 1.25 s) (35 points damage average) = Flamestrike (2s - .5s = 1.5s) 43 damage average


4.25 seconds = 78 damage = 18.35 DPS max (with scribe mage and cursed target) this wont be accurate since once of these spells will be interrupted



Archer hits 35 7 9 every 3.75 seconds for 51 points = 13.6 dps taking not taking into account any debuffs

 

[CovenantX]

You used numbers i just used from a scribe mage @ 33 sdi with a target cursed.


Curse (1.25s-.5swith fc2= .75s) (defender apple) + recurse(1.25s-.5s = .75s ) = so Curse = 1.5 seconds + Explosion (1.75s - .5 seconds = 1.25 s) (35 points damage average) = Flamestrike (2s - .5s = 1.5s) 43 damage average


4.25 seconds = 78 damage = 18.35 DPS max (with scribe mage and cursed target) this wont be accurate since once of these spells will be interrupted



Archer hits 35 7 9 every 3.75 seconds for 51 points = 13.6 dps taking not taking into account any debuffs

The numbers I posted were not with scribe just 30 SDI (but I said, the focused template would have room for another skill, implying scribe could be a possibility). everything I mentioned is what was used... 150 intelligence is also something I forgot to mention which was also used in the tests, both instances were done with equivalent suits/stats & resistances. -that's not the entire point though.

the point that Everyone here is trying to achieve balance by basing on the average dexer attacking at 1.25s (This is NOT the majority) the average dexer is going to be at 1.5s attacks or slower more often than they are at 1.25s, most don't even go to 211+ stamina because it takes sacrificing something for it. in my post above shows what it looks like if a dexer has everything everyone's saying they do at all times with the best RNG (not possible) and average RNG. Which is never the case.

 

[cobb]

Nerf 4/6 Chivalry:
A touchy subject because not all spells are "Broken". It needs to be looked at extensively. The simple fix is to increase the mana cost of a few spells (The Remove Curse, The Heal, The Cure) and/or for the remove curse, make the spell slower, or not remove ALL the curses. Only a random few.

I like your ideas but Chivalry is fine the way it is. There are only a few Chivalry spells to begin with. The random few spells you mentioned basically equals the majority of Chivalry spells.

 

[CovenantX]

Alchy is fine 30sdi mages are fine.

The only part I disagree with is Alchemy being fine.

I know you can pvp without alchemy, you can pvp without pots if you wanted... it's not worth it though.

I actually like this idea a lot, I've talked about a very similar change in vent with a few of my guildies...

Nerf Alchemy:
Everyone is using it. Either cap it at 50%, or make it so it doesn't stack with EP and just get the 50% bonus with GM. Every 2 points of alchemy gives you 1% EP.

Change the double conflag pot. With clever usage of macros, a double conflag is viable. This makes for something a bit game breaking when mixed with 80% ep and multi pot throwers.

a Hard cap of 50% EP, which would be accumulated by either having Alchemy skill at whatever you want and you wouldn't need EP on your jewels or as much EP on them.
which would open some options.

 

[OREOGL]

The numbers I posted were not with scribe just 30 SDI (but I said, the focused template would have room for another skill, implying scribe could be a possibility). everything I mentioned is what was used... 150 intelligence is also something I forgot to mention which was also used in the tests, both instances were done with equivalent suits/stats & resistances. -that's not the entire point though.

the point that Everyone here is trying to achieve balance by basing on the average dexer attacking at 1.25s (This is NOT the majority) the average dexer is going to be at 1.5s attacks or slower more often than they are at 1.25s, most don't even go to 211+ stamina because it takes sacrificing something for it. in my post above shows what it looks like if a dexer has everything everyone's saying they do at all times with the best RNG (not possible) and average RNG. Which is never the case.

The numbers i used i just tested with 5 combos and averaged the damage. Your numbers are using max damage scenarios assuming they are never hit or cursed more than once. This clearly isn't accurate.

And the average dexer will not be at 1.5s, that is like saying the average mage will not be at max damage either.


Regardless i did the testing and applied the math, youre using numbers that are bent to your argument.

 

[CovenantX]

The numbers i used i just tested with 5 combos and averaged the damage. Your numbers are using max damage scenarios assuming they are never hit or cursed more than once. This clearly isn't accurate.

And the average dexer will not be at 1.5s, that is like saying the average mage will not be at max damage either.


Regardless i did the testing and applied the math, youre using numbers that are bent to your argument.

I'm not using numbers bent to my argument I'm using numbers which reflect how people are stating it. which does help my argument.

The numbers I used are not max (some may be), I did the each combo 4 times and applied the average of the results of those 4 in the mage tests. the dps is as close to max as I'd get with that particular combo based on my connection and suit/character specs that were used.

But I'll ask you what the difference between what you're saying here:

our numbers are using max damage scenarios assuming they are never hit or cursed more than once. This clearly isn't accurate.

but instead of it being from mage to dexer apply that in a dexers perspective when fighting a mage.

 

[OREOGL]

I'm not using numbers bent to my argument I'm using numbers which reflect how people are stating it. which does help my argument.

Who's stating it? I'm not sure it matters, I just tested it with a scribe mage using max SDI. These ARE the numbers.

But I'll ask you what the difference between what you're saying here: but instead of it being from mage to dexer apply that in a dexers perspective when fighting a mage.

RNG affects the archer damage output vs the parry template without any debuffs ( I tested this too), meaning this is not likely the max damage.


aside from this you used 150 int in your test, and to get a parry mage for max blocking you need 80 dex. ~50 dex if youre using pots for the 30 dex bump.

So for you to say the average archer is at 1.5 seconds, but a mage is going to be at 150 int, 50 dex, and more than 55 strength is a big caveat. (this means its all in the suit which so would be an archers).

 

[CovenantX]

aside from this you used 150 int in your test, and to get a parry mage for max blocking you need 80 dex. ~50 dex if youre using pots for the 30 dex bump.

Yes, valid point for sure. but there's a gap between how much a mage needs to be effective in terms of gear and what a dexer "needs" to be effective versus the average skill level of the players..

150str +25 HPI = 150 HP (=) between dexers & mages.
150+dex+even more in stamina for dexers vs 80-90 for mages nothing more.
Int 150 int for mages mana increase is irrelevant for the most part with mages... vs whatever the standard for dexers (I'd say standard is ~80+ int/mana) but based on what I've read here it's higher than that. maybe closer to ~90.

This is information based on how people have improved their suits (items) based on in-game and here on stratics. would you say it's pretty accurate?

So for you to say the average archer is at 1.5 seconds, but a mage is going to be at 150 int, 50 dex, and more than 55 strength is a big caveat. (this means its all in the suit which so would be an archers).

Parry nor Archery has changed in years.

You know, the difference between you and I on this argument is mainly only one thing:

Parry being touched at all if archery is nerfed.,,,How do you justify Parry being balanced if it's already the much better option over any form of dexer Especially any dexer without a ranged weapon skill, After archery receives any adjustments?

I've pointed out the imbalances of parry between other parry-templates. (Focus-parry-mage vs every thing else with parry( Edit to clarify... (This is strictly in trade-offs vs trade offs of the templates in question).

 

[OREOGL]

Yes, valid point for sure. but there's a gap between how much a mage needs to be effective in terms of gear and what a dexer "needs" to be effective versus the average skill level of the players..

150str +25 HPI = 150 HP (=) between dexers & mages.
150+dex+even more in stamina for dexers vs 80-90 for mages nothing more.
Int 150 int for mages mana increase is irrelevant for the most part with mages... vs whatever the standard for dexers (I'd say standard is ~80+ int/mana) but based on what I've read here it's higher than that. maybe closer to ~90.

This is information based on how people have improved their suits (items) based on in-game and here on stratics. would you say it's pretty accurate?




Parry nor Archery has changed in years.

You know, the difference between you and I on this argument is mainly only one thing:

Parry being touched at all if archery is nerfed.,,,How do you justify Parry being balanced if it's already the much better option over any form of dexer Especially any dexer without a ranged weapon skill, After archery receives any adjustments?

I've pointed out the imbalances of parry between other parry-templates. (Focus-parry-mage vs every thing else with parry( Edit to clarify... (This is strictly in trade-offs vs trade offs of the templates in question).

Man, I'm not going to argue balance based on suits. We'd be at this all day spitting out hypotheticals.

nerfing archery is a completely different argument vs justifying parry mages as it stands now.

 

[CovenantX]

Man, I'm not going to argue balance based on suits. We'd be at this all day spitting out hypotheticals.

nerfing archery is a completely different argument vs justifying parry mages as it stands now.

But that's the situation the game is in... we agree on that, we can also agree that archery is "overpowered:. but how? is it because it forces people to play parry-mages?
or is it because at Yew Gate you can't play without having archer(s) attacking you. The part that makes it so good though is most definitely moving shot. I know this because melee is never talked about like that.... as a matter of fact, the only thing maintaining any balance with the power creep IS the "Caps" of Item properties.

Personally I don't think Archery is so over-powered as much as people say it is... when it comes to one vs one, but at the same time... like most pvper's (I'd imagine), I don't base my characters templates around one vs one (I don't care about "Dueling" anymore, Casting focus ruined that for me...) I base my templates around what I have to deal with being more of a solo player vs what most others use & groups.

 

[MalagAste]

But that's the situation the game is in... we agree on that, we can also agree that archery is "overpowered:. but how? is it because it forces people to play parry-mages?
or is it because at Yew Gate you can't play without having archer(s) attacking you. The part that makes it so good though is most definitely moving shot. I know this because melee is never talked about like that.... as a matter of fact, the only thing maintaining any balance with the power creep IS the "Caps" of Item properties.

Personally I don't think Archery is so over-powered as much as people say it is... when it comes to one vs one, but at the same time... like most pvper's (I'd imagine), I don't base my characters templates around one vs one (I don't care about "Dueling" anymore, Casting focus ruined that for me...) I base my templates around what I have to deal with being more of a solo player vs what most others use & groups.

Archery is not over powered... Even with everything at 120 and your HCI and all at max you still miss at least 40% of the time... MAGIC USERS NEVER MISS... and swords/fencers/macers don't even miss as often as Archers do... Throwers if they are good and know where to stand etc don't miss as often as archers do... Even trying to hit something literally the size of a Barn... you miss at least 40% of the shots.

 

[CovenantX]

Archery is not over powered... Even with everything at 120 and your HCI and all at max you still miss at least 40% of the time... MAGIC USERS NEVER MISS... and swords/fencers/macers don't even miss as often as Archers do... Throwers if they are good and know where to stand etc don't miss as often as archers do... Even trying to hit something literally the size of a Barn... you miss at least 40% of the shots.

Yes, but missing at 40% chance is based on what you're fighting. Wrestling & parry skill vs your weapon skill & HCI (pvm) and a combination between wrestling, parry, & DCI (pvp) vs your weapon skill & HCI

Magic users don't miss because of the spells being cast subjected to interruption. which is the balance between the casters & the non-casters.

I've not had anything be harder to hit with an archer than any other form of weapon users... I know you're talking about pvm though. If it's true, possibly a bug, but there has to be more specific information about it anyway, like what it is you're having a hard time hitting and such.

 

[Enziet]

Phew! They ask for balance advice, and the thread turns into a screaming match over who is right and wrong. Figures (silly internet). Good read though until the thread turned.

 

[OREOGL]

Phew! They ask for balance advice, and the thread turns into a screaming match over who is right and wrong. Figures (silly internet). Good read though until the thread turned.

It was inevitable. It always turns into a **** show because everyone thinks their way is right (myself included).

On the other hand bleak asks the question with little to no follow up.

There was only one way this thread was probably going to end, which is probably locked.

 

[Merus]

Archery is not over powered... Even with everything at 120 and your HCI and all at max you still miss at least 40% of the time... MAGIC USERS NEVER MISS... and swords/fencers/macers don't even miss as often as Archers do... Throwers if they are good and know where to stand etc don't miss as often as archers do... Even trying to hit something literally the size of a Barn... you miss at least 40% of the shots.

You do realize that archery misses exactly the same as every other combat skill with 120 skill and 45 HCI right? It has nothing to do with where you stand (save for a melee person needing to be next to the target rather than ranged)... but given equal skill and equal HCI, all hit chance is the same.

 

[MalagAste]

Yes, but missing at 40% chance is based on what you're fighting. Wrestling & parry skill vs your weapon skill & HCI (pvm) and a combination between wrestling, parry, & DCI (pvp) vs your weapon skill & HCI

Magic users don't miss because of the spells being cast subjected to interruption. which is the balance between the casters & the non-casters.

I've not had anything be harder to hit with an archer than any other form of weapon users... I know you're talking about pvm though. If it's true, possibly a bug, but there has to be more specific information about it anyway, like what it is you're having a hard time hitting and such.

While I'm sure there is all that having played all types it is just really annoying that to me it seems archery is given far more credit than is due... it seriously does not need to be nerfed any more than it already has been...

The chances that you get hit that often by an archer and it's fatal before you can get off a bandage just means that either your defense stinks... or your slow... that or there is more than one archer on you... since I can say for a fact that archers aren't all that horrible... since they miss more often than hit in most situations... unless like I said your defense stinks.

 

[Merus]

Parry nor Archery has changed in years.

Parry and Archer as skills have not changed, but... the properties (overall damage output) on bows has gone up since global loot. This goes for all weapons in general. That is why I thing archery needs tweaked where those properties are concerned. I think that would be a good step in bringing back the balance we had between mages and dexxers. If you bring back that balance, I think we would see mages naturally move away from parry in favor of other skills without the need to change it.

 

[chester rockwell]

Fix the spawn rates at champ spawns!!!!

 

[CovenantX]

Parry and Archer as skills have not changed, but... the properties (overall damage output) on bows has gone up since global loot. This goes for all weapons in general. That is why I thing archery needs tweaked where those properties are concerned. I think that would be a good step in bringing back the balance we had between mages and dexxers. If you bring back that balance, I think we would see mages naturally move away from parry in favor of other skills without the need to change it.

the only things to change with archery damage is the fact you can reach the next threshold in stamina. Stamina increase & Elemental damage weapons is what made archery as good as it is. You said properties like Hit-spell & Splintering Hit-spells have not changed for ranged weapons At all. ranged weapons are Capped at 50% lightening & 50 Velocity.
Melee weapons have up to 70% hit spell & 30% splintering (velocity is not and never has been possible on melee weapons).

as a matter of fact, it's no longer possible to find ranged weapons with any hit-spell other than velocity & hit area, unless it's imbued.

It'll open up more mage options (which already exist) because obviously melee dexers don't have an impact on why people chose Parry-mage templates over something else... at least not to the extent that ranged weapons do.

The question is, How to tweak Archery so that it remains a viable option as a dexers only weapon skill?

as far as Parry goes... it has not changed, nor has my opinion on it needing an adjustment... I'm against changing just one Archery or Parry though. The suggestion that I have mentioned is one that balances Parry skill between every other template that uses Parry, (i.e tying parry chances to a weapon skill) as well as not affecting pvm.

 

[CovenantX]

The chances that you get hit that often by an archer and it's fatal before you can get off a bandage just means that either your defense stinks... or your slow... that or there is more than one archer on you... since I can say for a fact that archers aren't all that horrible... since they miss more often than hit in most situations... unless like I said your defense stinks.

That's specifically against a person that only heals themselves with bandages though in pvp, it's not the norm anymore. Missing more often than they hit is because they're probably fighting someone with parry, after all it is a 67.5% miss / 32.5% hit chance to miss someone with max parry chance and 45 dci, and equal weapon skill. If that's not the case the chance of hitting is roughly the same as missing, and a good or bad streak just depends on RNG.

So far, the only suggestion that will make little to no difference in pvm, is re-implementing the moving shot hit chance penalty (I don't know when or why that was removed in the first place),

 

[Finley Grant]

Its actually that you Talk about Balance in PvP which should be more or less even to Run different templates.

@Bleak i Hope you dont forget the other half of the Player Base who do PvM when you Start breaking stuff.

PvM is fine.

 

[Lythos-]

I've got a few other ideas.

Archery - decrease armor ignore cap to 30.

1 tile warriors - increase hit chance and defense chance by 5 if player has no magery, archery, chiv or necromancy. Increase armor ignore cap with 1 tile weapons to 40. Remove balanced weapon/ parry restriction.

Add this to my original suggestion of unnerfing casting while toggling specials and removal of previous ninja and bushido nerfs and I think we'll have a much needed refreshing variety of templates to choose from.

 

[OREOGL]

I've got a few other ideas.

Archery - decrease armor ignore cap to 30.

1 tile warriors - increase hit chance and defense chance by 5 if player has no magery, archery, chiv or necromancy. Increase armor ignore cap with 1 tile weapons to 40. Remove balanced weapon/ parry restriction.

Add this to my original suggestion of unnerfing casting while toggling specials and removal of previous ninja and bushido nerfs and I think we'll have a much needed refreshing variety of templates to choose from.

I think we'll pass on this, thanks.

 

[CovenantX]

So far it looks like these suggestions seem agreed on between some/most people, but input is needed on any current/future suggestions that might work, hopefully without causing any additional imbalances somewhere else.

1) Tactics Skill - should no longer be required to use weapon specials - Tactics should remain a requirement for weapon-skill Mastery(s)
2) Weapon specials - should be toggle-able while casting spells.
3) Archery - Moving Shot: Re-implement a hit chance penalty. ------ / possibly a slight damage reduction / speed cap reduction.
4) Magery Curse + Focused Necro- Corpse Skin - should have an overlapping effect instead of an additive stack, up to -15 fire -10 cold - 15 poison - 10 energy resistance caps while affected by both spells.

Below are other changes (I agree with) that more people either didn't discuss or do not agree on.

5) Alchemy - +1% Enhance potions for every 2.0 Alchemy skill at 100.0 = 50% EP... Alchemy Enhance Potion bonus no longer stacks with item EP bonus (not discussed)
6) Parry chances reduced for players with Parry + Wrestling or Parry + Anatomy down to 20% from 35%. (Disagreed on)

I'll also add... specifically because of how they impacted mage-dueling.
7) Remove Casting Focus from PvP.
8) Remove of Poison Immunity from Poisoning skill.

 

[Merus]

Alternatively for Alchemy: leave the stacking (80 possible), but add it to the list of skills that break the focus spec. You get to keep the effect of potions, but it still reduces the overall DPS of the template.
In any case, the double throw should be fixed.

 

[MalagAste]

Well while they are working on all this balance stuff could they please fix the issue with Velocity on weapons?

 

[Acid Rain]

Leaving tomorrow for a weekend business trip & right now leaving for a seminar so I'm weighing in :

1) Hell no.
2) Not a good idea.
3) Possibly but I still don't think archery needs another nerf & I don't even play an archer.
4) I've still yet to have a single team use this tactics on me in PvP so I can't speak on this matter.

5) Possibly but since I don't play any alchemy templates, again I cant speak on this matter.
6) Another bad idea.

7) Absolutely not.
8) Again, no.

I'm responding to your comments because you seem to be posting the most here & making the most assumptions.
Please do not take my lack of comments in any way to reflect my agreement or concession of your premises.
I still find them to be misleading at best & your math to be completely wrong in other cases.

I simply don't have the time, patience, or energy to refute them case by case.
I will not get into an argument over a web game played to relax then spend hours on a forum debunking incorrect assumptions.
You appear to have much more time then I.

I respectfully disagree on "these suggestions seem agreed on between some/most people".
Looking forward to see others ideas in this thread next week

 

[CovenantX]

Leaving tomorrow for a weekend business trip & right now leaving for a seminar so I'm weighing in :

1) Hell no.
2) Not a good idea.
3) Possibly but I still don't think archery needs another nerf & I don't even play an archer.
4) I've still yet to have a single team use this tactics on me in PvP so I can't speak on this matter.

5) Possibly but since I don't play any alchemy templates, again I cant speak on this matter.
6) Another bad idea.

7) Absolutely not.
8) Again, no.

I'm responding to your comments because you seem to be posting the most here & making the most assumptions.
Please do not take my lack of comments in any way to reflect my agreement or concession of your premises.
I still find them to be misleading at best & your math to be completely wrong in other cases.

I simply don't have the time, patience, or energy to refute them case by case.
I will not get into an argument over a web game played to relax then spend hours on a forum debunking incorrect assumptions.
You appear to have much more time then I.

I respectfully disagree on "these suggestions seem agreed on between some/most people".
Looking forward to see others ideas in this thread next week

We can assume you disagree due to personal reasons, because you're not stating why you disagree with anything. But you're also not offering other suggestions which says everything is balanced already, no? Carry on.

 

[OREOGL]

So far it looks like these suggestions seem agreed on between some/most people, but input is needed on any current/future suggestions that might work, hopefully without causing any additional imbalances somewhere else.

1) Tactics Skill - should no longer be required to use weapon specials - Tactics should remain a requirement for weapon-skill Mastery(s)
2) Weapon specials - should be toggle-able while casting spells.
3) Archery - Moving Shot: Re-implement a hit chance penalty. ------ / possibly a slight damage reduction / speed cap reduction.
4) Magery Curse + Focused Necro- Corpse Skin - should have an overlapping effect instead of an additive stack, up to -15 fire -10 cold - 15 poison - 10 energy resistance caps while affected by both spells.

Below are other changes (I agree with) that more people either didn't discuss or do not agree on.

5) Alchemy - +1% Enhance potions for every 2.0 Alchemy skill at 100.0 = 50% EP... Alchemy Enhance Potion bonus no longer stacks with item EP bonus (not discussed)
6) Parry chances reduced for players with Parry + Wrestling or Parry + Anatomy down to 20% from 35%. (Disagreed on)

I'll also add... specifically because of how they impacted mage-dueling.
7) Remove Casting Focus from PvP.
8) Remove of Poison Immunity from Poisoning skill.

1. Tactics were tied in to balance PVP, this should be left alone.
2. This doesnt improve balance
3. No
4. No, its fine
5. No, just cap Nova damage
6. NO NO NO AND NO




Edited:

Just saw 7 and 8.

7. Lol no
8. and no

 

[drcossack]

7) Absolutely not.
8) Again, no.

Ehh, why not? Casting Focus does have SOME benefit (it's saved my ass a few times), but I still try to limit the amount of CF I have in a suit. If it goes off multiple times, it ****s up my timing and I'll start overcasting. I will wholeheartedly agree with 8 - there are guys who completely rely on it (as an Atl player, I'm sure you can guess who I'm referring to...) and it (along with the max CF on his suit) makes him a VERY annoying kill in a 1v1 fight.

Rest of Covenant's post:

1) Yes. Way back when, I originally played a Tank Mage. I would love to be able to do that again (granted, I could do it now, but meh, I don't want to have to work Tactics in for specials)
2) On the fence with this one. I get the logic behind it, and I'd like it, but at the same time, letting a special stay toggled while casting makes combos more powerful.
3) Speed cap reduction, I can't comment on - the effect would need testing. However, 1.25 going to 1.5 (for ranged only) isn't that much of a difference. HCI penalty and damage reduction? Yes. If you're moving and trying to hit a moving target, your accuracy SHOULD be reduced, and by extension, so should the damage - it's a lot easier to accurately hit a stationary target, and to hit where you intended to (let's say in the shoulder.)
4) At the very least, remove the ability to stack the two spells. It should be 70/55/60/55/60 with both debuffs, with Corpse only being a 5 point drop in the cap if the target is Cursed first.
5) 80% EP's gotta go, and it should break Focus Spec at...hmm, over 30% in EP? I like 2 points in skill = 1% EP, especially with no stacking of EP & the skill. It'd also let you choose whether to go with the skill or use EP on items.
6) idk. I will agree that Parry (in a 1v1 situation) is OP, and where it really helps is against a group - with a reduction in the Parry chance, it'll help a group of dexers more. Granted, chances are said group of dexers would eventually kill you ANYWAY, but still. For me, if anything needs to be fixed with dexers/parry, it's whatever some dexers are using that lets them hit over and over (oh, sorry, I forgot, it's just the same few people having really good RNG on a consistent basis, and totally not a bug of some kind.) When that happens, I wouldn't mind the Parry chance being reduced.

Anyway @Bleak, can we get an update on this with your thoughts?

 

[CovenantX]

1. Tactics were tied in to balance PVP, this should be left alone.
2. This doesnt improve balance
3. No
4. No, its fine
5. No, just cap Nova damage
6. NO NO NO AND NO




Edited:

Just saw 7 and 8.

7. Lol no
8. and no

1) What balance was the tactics change intended to fix, the variety of templates? LOL
2) How doesn't it? it promotes different play-styles aka hybrid templates...
3) no reason*
4) no reason again*...
5) cap nova damage, sure that could be something that works..
6) no reason*...

7 & 8 were self preference changes... which is why they were separated from everything else... but look at your response to them... hell of a shocker if you ask me.

When you respond with "No" without stating why you disagree with it (regardless of topic) it doesn't help your argument at all, doesn't point out flaws, doesn't offer any solutions. but best of all, since it does nothing, it helps the argument you disagree with.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

I see so many things that will become unbalanced in this threads current discussion it would be a nightmare.

Poison immunity timer should be gone unless you have 80+ poisoning skill.
CF should be eliminated entirely because the only real time it comes into play is in a 1v1 and it adds to a possible RNG kill (or save) destroying the better player's cycle.
4/6 chiv needs to be looked at but not massively nerfed. If anything working the mastery into a focused effect so you can't stack the 4/6 with SW/bush/ninja/necro

The total Faster Casting your equipment provides is subject to the following maximums.

• 2 - For Magery, Mysticism and Necromancy spells
• 4 - For Bushido, Chivalry*, Ninjitsu, Spellweaving spells and Bard Masteries

Chivalry is capped at 2 if you have 70 or more Magery or Mysticism skill.


I'd rather see a damage reduction or possible cap to ranged weapons rather than speed reduction because this will directly effect PvM and that will fuel the fire between pvp and pvm. As long as parry remains unchanged there should be no change to ranged weapons at all.

I agree that parry along with mele should be looked at, but I don't see any easy solution. If anything I see buffing the parry chance of non parry users (i.e. mage weapon) along with allowing hybrid mages the ability to hit 30sdi. I don't think removing tactics would be a good idea for specials, but allowing you to toggle a spec while casting should absolutely be allowed. All of the above would give a serious buff to hyrbid mages allowing them to become much more competitive and useful.

There is absolutely no reason to change alchemy and EP. There are timers on everything and if you are on timer, the 100 skill points along with item mods are rendered useless. If you are seriously dying to a double conflag in 2016 I would suggest you reevaluate your play style...

 

[drcossack]

There is absolutely no reason to change alchemy and EP. There are timers on everything and if you are on timer, the 100 skill points along with item mods are rendered useless. If you are seriously dying to a double conflag in 2016 I would suggest you reevaluate your play style...

Although I would like to see double conflag fixed (though not because of the damage), I'd guess it's more for Supernova pots.

I'd rather see a damage reduction or possible cap to ranged weapons rather than speed reduction because this will directly effect PvM and that will fuel the fire between pvp and pvm.

A quarter of a second though? I mean, it will effect pvm as well, but that's still not a massive difference over a large enough sample size. For me, it wouldn't matter at all, although that's not a good argument - my thrower's swing rate w/a Soul Glaive is 1.75 seconds (167 stam, 45 SSI.) I'd need 60 SSI and 210 Stam to hit 1.25 seconds.

Granted, nobody is gonna use a 210 stam/60 SSI suit in pvm. But I'm still not sure a damage reduction would work - rather, how would it be done? Change the base damage? Unless there's a way to make it apply to pvp only (with the size of this dev team, that might be tough to do), that'd probably cause more of a firestorm from the pvm-only playerbase.

 

[King Greg]

1) Tactics Skill - should no longer be required to use weapon specials - Tactics should remain a requirement for weapon-skill Mastery(s)
2) Weapon specials - should be toggle-able while casting spells.
3) Archery - Moving Shot: Re-implement a hit chance penalty. ------ / possibly a slight damage reduction / speed cap reduction.
4) Magery Curse + Focused Necro- Corpse Skin - should have an overlapping effect instead of an additive stack, up to -15 fire -10 cold - 15 poison - 10 energy resistance caps while affected by both spells.

Below are other changes (I agree with) that more people either didn't discuss or do not agree on.

5) Alchemy - +1% Enhance potions for every 2.0 Alchemy skill at 100.0 = 50% EP... Alchemy Enhance Potion bonus no longer stacks with item EP bonus (not discussed)
6) Parry chances reduced for players with Parry + Wrestling or Parry + Anatomy down to 20% from 35%. (Disagreed on)

I'll also add... specifically because of how they impacted mage-dueling.
7) Remove Casting Focus from PvP.
8) Remove of Poison Immunity from Poisoning skill.

1 - Yes, more diversity. More Hybrids that don't require insane gear.
2 - Not sure on this one to be honest, I like the thought of it, but then I think about players having an armor ignore toggled while doing magic arrow/fireball rotations and I just cringe.
3 - Hit Chance penalty to Moving Shot ++
4 - Agree, should not stack. I also don't think you should need to be Focused Necro though either for the corpse skin Full Effect. Being 120/120 Is more than enough. I think that's 16 more skill than necessary to cast all the spells 100%
5 - I think it should still stack giving 80% EP, but should break the focused mage spec.
6 - Agree
7 - Indifferent
8 - Indifferent


Dropping max swing speed from 1.25 to 1.5 is a 20% Decrease in damage output. If you aren't taking advantage of it in pvm I would strongly suggest it.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

Although I would like to see double conflag fixed (though not because of the damage), I'd guess it's more for Supernova pots.


Granted, nobody is gonna use a 210 stam/60 SSI suit in pvm. But I'm still not sure a damage reduction would work - rather, how would it be done? Change the base damage? Unless there's a way to make it apply to pvp only (with the size of this dev team, that might be tough to do), that'd probably cause more of a firestorm from the pvm-only playerbase.

If you want to nerf novas we should nerf spell trigger and moving shot because they follow the same principle which is a 'kill shot'. In todays world suits are too powerful, along with buffs and debuffs. The added damage output from a nova is highly needed to achieve a kill. Honestly, in the past year I have had more kill shots with a nova or trigger than I have with an actual synch, even then it's getting tougher due to ppl knowing how to kite the damage. What I am actually hearing from you is that you want something nerfed because you choose to not utilize it, or if you do you're not having as great of success as others...
In regards to no one pvming in 210/60 ssi, that comment made me

I really fail to grasp how so many people have opinions, think they are 'REALLY' good at this game and claim to know mechanics but then clearly contradict themselves.

If you failed to read KG's post above, here it is just for reference. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

Dropping max swing speed from 1.25 to 1.5 is a 20% Decrease in damage output. If you aren't taking advantage of it in pvm I would strongly suggest it.

 

[OREOGL]

1) What balance was the tactics change intended to fix, the variety of templates? LOL
2) How doesn't it? it promotes different play-styles aka hybrid templates...
3) no reason*
4) no reason again*...
5) cap nova damage, sure that could be something that works..
6) no reason*...

7 & 8 were self preference changes... which is why they were separated from everything else... but look at your response to them... hell of a shocker if you ask me.

When you respond with "No" without stating why you disagree with it (regardless of topic) it doesn't help your argument at all, doesn't point out flaws, doesn't offer any solutions. but best of all, since it does nothing, it helps the argument you disagree with.

1) What balance was the tactics change intended to fix, the variety of templates? LOL
2) How doesn't it? it promotes different play-styles aka hybrid templates...
3) no reason*
4) no reason again*...
5) cap nova damage, sure that could be something that works..
6) no reason*...

7 & 8 were self preference changes... which is why they were separated from everything else... but look at your response to them... hell of a shocker if you ask me.

When you respond with "No" without stating why you disagree with it (regardless of topic) it doesn't help your argument at all, doesn't point out flaws, doesn't offer any solutions. but best of all, since it does nothing, it helps the argument you disagree with.

We already hammered out point 6 and I layed out the math and provided the reason.

The tactics point I'm sure you can put the skill point requirement as a power creep for already powerful templates. I didn't think I had to explain that to you though.
If they did specific specials similar to that of like wrestling and Magery etc that'd be fine on a case by case, but not just a total removal of tactics across the board.

The rest were just bad ideas.


Edit to add the corpse skin stacking with curse requires two people to perform and easily removed with an apple. And since majority agree you balance this 1 vs 1...

 

[King Greg]

Edit to add the corpse skin stacking with curse requires two people t

No, it doesn't.....

 

[OREOGL]

No, it doesn't.....

The original concern were dexers doing large hits with them being stacked, so it does.

Regardless, people can still Apple to remove the debuffs.