Necro Samuria vs Sampire

[CorwinXX]

You didn't specify a monster doing the hitting

You could guess that this is one of monster that hits hard and have at least to ways to damage. Sorry I don't speak about rabbits. When you encounter rabbits you can use any template. So I am speaking about hardest monsters you meet in UO. I fought a lot of different monsters... and I don't worry about weak one because against them there is no difference what template do you use. So I go and fight strongest monsters in the game and compare experience. I try different templates. By the way you could notice that in this topic I didn't compare different templates I just said about drawbacks of Wraith form (and useless of some necro spells for a dexxer). I told you why Wraith is not good against top level monsters. Other templates has their own drawbacks. To be fair I haven't found template that would be good against any monster. And the scenario I described here is not something unusual. What I write here is not hypothetical - it's situations when I die and don't have idea how I could survive. Would you played with a Wraith (and tried to solo top monsters) you'd encountered the same problems. But it seems you fight just weak monsters... or play in a group only.

The point of casting Omen + Corpse Skin is it increases the duration.

First of all it is don't always increase duration. Have you got it? I believe you don't. It is just because you speak about things you don't really tried. Okey, I will explain you. You cast Omen. But since you are standing close to monster (don't you forgot that we are speaking about dexxer?) You may get a hit, reflect damage and does 4 damage instead of 2 damage (with 5% damage reflection from Despicable Quiver. Well, when you are lucky and didn't take hit you do double damage. It means instead of two hits you did one with double damage... It's zero profit. So casting Omen you could zero profit (if you are lucky) or could lost one hit to monster (because you were casting instead of hitting). The math is easy and straightforward. You can calculate it yourself.

You're the person who seemed to think the DOT's would lead to death if relying on Curse Weapon without Protection?.

The damage from a DOT is doesn't matter when you have 50 LL from CW. I said that you may fail casting CW. 90% of time it is not a problem. But sometimes you die just because you failed casting CW. If you haven't dyed this way then you didn't fight serious monsters using Wraith. Well, I believe I couldn't convince you here just because you don't want to read what I write. So just try Wraith form with and without Protection. And I couldn't add more.

The Despicable Quiver has 5 RPD, and has no effect on any spells including Omen

LOL. It's just a LOL. You don't understand even base things. When you spent time to cast Omen just to increase reflected damage from 2 to 4.... I believe you have never tried CW without Protection against serious monster.

Conclusion:
I believe there is no sense to argue against you. So just post here links to video how you solo top level monster in Wraith form and don't encounter problem I have described here. No more boastful word... just post a video. Just post your video how you solo Shimmering Effusion and other top level stuff. But please don't tell us how you are cool against rabbits or Barracoon (there is not much difference between them) etc.

p.s. As I have noticed earlier I didn't compare templates here. I just tell about problems tha necro skills have. Sampire has its own problems. And both templates are not as versatile as Duncan Drake's Bushido Paladin or my Melee Archer. Although to be fair I must say that even Melee Archer has its own problems and against some monsters Sampire is better.

p.p.s. I spent a lot of time trying to find the best template in the game. And till now I failed to find a template that would be great against any top level monster in the game. I have played a lot with Sampire. And I have played a lot with Wraith. They are do excellent against weak bosses like Paramaximus etc. But they are .... against top level monster.
I have tried a lot of variation of Sampire. I have tried a lot of variations of Wraith. I myself would prefer Sampire but I wouldn't argue against if someone prefer Wraith. Both are good and both are bad.
I have encountered some problems with Wraith template... and I have tried various tricks to couter them. But all of them wasn't good enough.

p.p.p.s. I think I should give a Wraith another chance - because there is a Swordsmanship mastery and Daisho. I believe the idea to get 60 necro and 80 SS has a potential.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

First of all it is don't always increase duration.

Omen does always increases the duration of curse type effects (Curse/Mass Curse/Clumsey/Feeblemind/Weaken/Mind Rot/Corpse Skin/Blood Oath/Parra/Nerve Strike/Pain Spike/Sleep/Mass Sleep/Bombard etc etc), because one of it's effects is halving the target's Resisting Spells for the next negative thing that happens to them, as all curse duration's are based on the modifier (Eval/Focus/SS) of the particular skill vs the Resist.

The damage from a DOT is doesn't matter when you have 50 LL from CW. I said that you may fail casting CW. 90% of time it is not a problem. But sometimes you die just because you failed casting CW. If you haven't dyed this way then you didn't fight serious monsters using Wraith. Well, I believe I couldn't convince you here just because you don't want to read what I write. So just try Wraith form with and without Protection. And I couldn't add more.

I have had a Wraith who doesn't play in Prot for the last 8+ years, in fact for about 3-4 of those years when I had left the game (and boards) the thread in which I detailed the character soloing the Slasher was still being bumped by people using it and making variations of it. There were also threads with it soloing Corgul, and quite a few other things. If you're that bothered look through my threads in this forum back as far as 2011 and you'll find several. When I came back I still used the character for Captains, Exodus, Stygian, all Champs, Slasher, most event monsters (I get great drops with that character as it far out damages most others, like the 600m event harp I just sold in the trade forum)

When you spent time to cast Omen just to increase reflected damage from 2 to 4

Omen doesn't have anything to do with RPD. Unless, are you saying that having 5 RPD on your quiver renders Omen useless? That's just ridiculous. That's like saying 99 LRC means you can't cast. For a start the chance of it going off is miniscule, you don't have to be getting physically hit to be using Omen in a useful manner, I'm not even going to waste my time addressing this it's just ridiculous if that's what you're saying, and even then if it was any kind of issue, then don't use that quiver? The benefits of Omen far outweight the use of a few mod back slot.

So just post here links to video how you solo top level monster in Wraith form and don't encounter problem I have described here.

Here's some videos, no they're not mine, I don't video anything I do, though I have screen shotted in past threads where I've solod things... There used to also be some pretty awesome Ninja/Wammy ones floating around too.

p.s. As I have noticed earlier I didn't compare templates here. I just tell about problems tha necro skills have. Sampire has its own problems. And both templates are not as versatile as Duncan Drake's Bushido Paladin or my Melee Archer. Although to be fair I must say that even Melee Archer has its own problems and against some monsters Sampire is better.

I agree. Every template has pros and cons. Most can be overcome, the ones that can't if you're aware of them can usually be avoided, for example I know the vulnerabilities on certain templates I have, and as such can avoid putting myself in situations where it's an issue. (If I HAD to fight something where it would be an issue I'd probably rebuild just for that encounter - which I often do).

p.p.s. I spent a lot of time trying to find the best template in the game. And till now I failed to find a template that would be great against any top level monster in the game. I have played a lot with Sampire. And I have played a lot with Wraith. They are do excellent against weak bosses like Paramaximus etc. But they are .... against top level monster.
I have tried a lot of variation of Sampire. I have tried a lot of variations of Wraith. I myself would prefer Sampire but I wouldn't argue against if someone prefer Wraith. Both are good and both are bad.
I have encountered some problems with Wraith template... and I have tried various tricks to couter them. But all of them wasn't good enough.

I think (when you stop arguing over semantics and look at what I'm actually saying) you'll realise I actually agree with you on most of what you're saying. Personally I think the sampire is the more solid build, but to me the question asked in this thread was which is more versatile, meaning which can deal with the widest array of spawn. A template with multiple ways to attack is greater in that regard. I'm not saying it does the most damage, kills the quickest or best soloer or anything else, just that it is more widely viable. Another example; mini spawns Demons fly on to the rocks and flag on you, you can off screen and wait for them to fly back down, or you could just kill them with spells. Same at Oaks or most other spawns with ledges. Yeah you could just carry Teleport scrolls/rings but it's not always a viable option.

P.S. Why have all our usernames gone backwards?

 

[Zalan]

I was wondering the samething about usernames. The Stratics Banner has done that to.

 

[CorwinXX]

Here's some videos, no they're not mine,

Do you know how much attempts it took to record this videos? There are videos of kind 'i am a champion'. You just ignore some problems and hope you ll be lucky. 10 or 100 attempts later you get a cool video.
I have watched a lot of such videos and when I tried to repeat it I feel that I need be very lucky to do it.

There was a game Heroes II. I made a record finishing largest map on hardest level in 8 days. But it took me about 1000 restarts to get monsters/gold/artifacts I needed to fulfill my plan. This was not real game.

And I think those videos are old. May be they were recorded before peerless bosses were upgraded (wrestling). And may be they were recorded when Leaf Blade has high damage.

Omen doesn't have anything to do with RPD.

Omen increase the first damage... and when it is RPD Omen increase it = wasted Omen.

Omen does always increases the duration of curse type effects

You cast Omen. Monster hits you and takes reflecting damage. Omen is wasted to increase this reflecting damage. It is a pretty common situation when you play melee char. When you cast second spell Omen is already gone so your spell doesn't take benefits from Omen (not always but pretty often)

I have had a Wraith who doesn't play in Prot for the last 8+ years,

When I was trying to get a super killing-any-stuff template I spent a lot of time for Wraith. Against some top monsters I felt a lack of Resisting Spells and I tried to fight without Protection. And as to me without protection it is a crap.

Why have all our usernames gone backwards?

It seems we all are Arabian. Or may be it is tolerance )))

which is more versatile, meaning which can deal with the widest array of spawn

Well I can just repeat that I didn't compared two templates. I just pointed useless of necro spells for solo dexxer. I may be wrong somewhere... it is just my experience.
You should remember that in another topic I posted drawbacks of fencing sampire. I could also post drawbacks of my favorite melee archer. More you play with a template more drawbacks you found... and I have played a lot with melee archer.

p.s. It is pretty common for me: I develop a template based on skills info... but when I start to play with it I found tons of drawbacks... I rejected some (my) very cool (in theory) ideas this way. All those numbers I calculate when developing a new template often become fiction in practice. And I post here so other players be ready to income those problems.

 

[Zalan]

This is the template I refined for the Necro Samurai.

120 Sword
120 Bushido
120 Tactics
120 Anatomy (+10 talisman)
100 Necromancy
100 Spirit Speak
80 Chivalry (+30 from Jewelry)

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Do you know how much attempts it took to record this videos?

And I think those videos are old. May be they were recorded before peerless bosses were upgraded (wrestling). And may be they were recorded when Leaf Blade has high damage.

No, nor does anyone other than the person who recorded it, and yeah they are old - I don't think many people make videos in general, least of all old encounters that have been solod/farmed a dozen different ways. the Shimmering one was probably the first one that ever came out of Shimmering being solod.

Omen increase the first damage... and when it is RPD Omen increase it = wasted Omen.

You cast Omen. Monster hits you and takes reflecting damage. Omen is wasted to increase this reflecting damage. It is a pretty common situation when you play melee char. When you cast second spell Omen is already gone so your spell doesn't take benefits from Omen (not always but pretty often)

Eh, ok, fair enough, but... if that happened and you were casting Omen for some sort of necessary move, you would simply re-cast it. It's not necessary to use any RPD, and a low amount such as 5 triggers very infrequently, plus you don't have to stay getting hit while you do it. I would think of it more in terms of it's use at range, for example in conjunction with Conduit, and Corpse Skin (to increase the duration), or Poison Strike (to increase the damage).

When I was trying to get a super killing-any-stuff template I spent a lot of time for Wraith. Against some top monsters I felt a lack of Resisting Spells and I tried to fight without Protection. And as to me without protection it is a crap.

I tried that too, but quickly realised there is no one template that is best for everything, so went with the one that works for the bosses that drop the rewards I want or do the most.

That being my Thrower. Currently using 120 Wep/Tact/Bush/Anat, 100 Necro/70 SS, and 70 Chiv and recently re-suited for maximum swing. I use the character in Vamp Form unless in a situation where I can go Wraith and spam AI. I use it at most events and encounters because it usually is one of the top damagers. It breezes through most bosses hitting for 200+. Before the devs turned Throwing into one handed ammo-less Archery it could hit 273. It has some drawbacks but I don't consider mobility or Resisting Spells one of them, I pretty much always remove any DOT, or swing affecting curse straight away.

You should remember that in another topic I posted drawbacks of fencing sampire. I could also post drawbacks of my favorite melee archer. More you play with a template more drawbacks you found... and I have played a lot with melee archer.

Yes, I remember having a long back and forth discussion with you about that too. Your melee Archer I expect is pretty similar to my Swords/Thrower, again I think that it is more versatile than an ordinary sampire because you can switch between melee and ranged, yet it is not as solid defensively.

p.s. It is pretty common for me: I develop a template based on skills info... but when I start to play with it I found tons of drawbacks... I rejected some (my) very cool (in theory) ideas this way. All those numbers I calculate when developing a new template often become fiction in practice. And I post here so other players be ready to income those problems.

Same. Though usually the only drawbacks I find are that I forget things like enhancing Gargish Amulets doesn't add resists. Though saying that I made a sampire purely for the Covetous/Cora spawn (whatever it's called) which was perfect in every way as a Whirlwind template, apart from that I didn't know the later levels have resists so high you can't leech enough.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

This is the template I refined for the Necro Samurai.

120 Sword
120 Bushido
120 Tactics
120 Anatomy (+10 talisman)
100 Necromancy
100 Spirit Speak
80 Chivalry (+30 from Jewelry)

Looks good to me. I'd be highly likely to make it 100 LRC (and 2/6 if I could), though I expect you're going to use it more as a dexxer so will use regs.

 

[Zalan]

I will probably start off with using regs. However, it gave me some high end equipment goals: Hawkwinds Robe, Minax Sandles, Lt. RBG Sash (replica) = 30 LRC' 15 lmc 4 mr , +5 int, 5 SDI. I'm thinking on the apron slot that Ozymandias Obi stats are better for a dexxer than Crimson or Tangle. Ozy gives +10 Str, +10 Stamina, 2 SR.

 

[CorwinXX]

It's not necessary to use any RPD, and a low amount such as 5 triggers very infrequently, plus you don't have to stay getting hit while you do it.

I would prefer to stay without RPD but I use Despicable Quiver/Unforgiven Veil.
As to my experience RPD triggers 100% of time. The number means amount of damage reflected.

p.s. My Discoder uses Corpse Skin + Despair and casts Omen just before every Despair tick.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I will probably start off with using regs. However, it gave me some high end equipment goals: Hawkwinds Robe, Minax Sandles, Lt. RBG Sash (replica) = 30 LRC' 15 lmc 4 mr , +5 int, 5 SDI. I'm thinking on the apron slot that Ozymandias Obi stats are better for a dexxer than Crimson or Tangle. Ozy gives +10 Str, +10 Stamina, 2 SR.

I would say it depends on how easily you are capping HPI (which is essential on every build imo), where as I don't think 210 Stamina is when building for Double Strike.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I would prefer to stay without RPD but I use Despicable Quiver/Unforgiven Veil.
As to my experience RPD triggers 100% of time. The number means amount of damage reflected.

p.s. My Discoder uses Corpse Skin + Despair and casts Omen just before every Despair tick.

The total number of RPD on your character is both the % chance of a reflect happening at all, and the % of the physical damage done, as most monsters (especially boss monsters) are usually not 100% physical it's usually a very low number. If you only have 5 RPD, you have a 5% chance of returning 5% of the monsters physical damage back to them.

 

[CorwinXX]

If you only have 5 RPD, you have a 5% chance of returning 5% of the monsters physical damage back to them.

I have just tested this on Boura Pelts. Every time I took damage it got reflected damages.

s most monsters (especially boss monsters) are usually not 100% physical it's usually a very low number

In this case it doesn't matter how much monsters are 100% physical. It does matter how much monsters are 100% elemental.
Most monsters does some physical damage. So there is a damage to reflect.
When a monster does 100% elemental damage (so it doesn't physical damage at all) there is nothing to reflect and you are safe to cast Omen.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I have just tested this on Boura Pelts. Every time I took damage it got reflected damages.

Oh well, guess that's changed.

Can you still combine it with Blood Oath?