• Hail Guest!
    We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
  • Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
  • Hail Guest!,
    Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
  • Hail Guest!
    Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!

Petition to save UO!

Elenni

Stratics Sr. Leadership team member
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
I feel bad for any new player or returning player (i.e. absence of 5+ years), who doesn't start on Atlantic or atleast one of the other more moderately populated shards (GL, Europa). A new player on a low pop shard won't stick around for long. I know the non-Atlantic sharders will disagree and probably don't want to hear it, but there is simply no reason for a newbie to be starting out where there isn't a larger and more active community.
You have some definite points there -- but for me, Sonoma was "home" and so that's where I went back to. But the lack of population can be a real disadvantage...so much so that I really think cross-sharding is one of the things that is here to stay, and may become more of the norm than the exception (*ducks*)
 

Lord Frodo

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
You can GM most skills on Haven Island alone. And if they don't have that kind of attention span there's nothing UO can do to hold their attention. You can't force people to like everything. UO is a grinding game. You grind your skills, you grind your gold, you grind your quests, you grind your kills for drops, and you grind for drops to get rewards for your character/house. It's all grinding. Conceivably, you can go to Blackthorns as well around 60ish skill and be safe as well if you like PVM.

I wouldn't recommend taming or mining on Haven, but I can't think of much else? Lockpicking maybe. Provocation/Discord...
Maybe WARRIOR skills but how do you GM Spell Casting without an LRC suit and there is no way you could come close to Taming. Some of the crafting skills would take a lot longer on Haven then anywhere else also.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
I have no idea what a new player would do with those arms, probably just lose them. I've no idea what they're worth; I suppose exactly what they sell for, ay?

(If folks here think that I'd advocate giving new players 20m arms or armor, then I've not made my point.)
Cheers
Then there's really not a lot of point bringing them up. It's irrelevant to a new player if the only vendors are stocking things worth mils they're not needed to play.


@Lord GOD(GOD) New players do have ten times what I know I started with; 100 gold. I think many folks agree that given our new economy, 1000 gold is not enough. Not when taken into account the vast landmass to travel before potentially seeing another gamer, not when having armour that has durability that needs to be powdered (at a cost of 100K plus per jar), etc. And particularly not when it's difficult on many shards to even find another player.
It is enough. Traveling has nothing to do with it. Other players have nothing to do with it. You don't need POF'd armor when you're new.

@Lord GOD(GOD) Are we talking about a job in the coal mines, or an enjoyable video game?
Cheers
I'm talking about a video game. I've no idea what you're talking about. What you quoted was in relation to a conversation I was having with someone else about how a new player chose to give up after res killing themselves in Fel Destard (apparently), they were called lazy on the basis that (as stated by the person speaking about them) they couldn't be bothered to do the stuff at their level and wanted to jump ahead, because this obviously results in not getting anywhere they gave up, rather than the more logical conclusion of 'I'M not ready for here YET.'
 
Last edited:

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Maybe WARRIOR skills but how do you GM Spell Casting without an LRC suit and there is no way you could come close to Taming. Some of the crafting skills would take a lot longer on Haven then anywhere else also.
Reagents? You don't need to GM a skill before leaving Haven, or before you can loot LRC.
 

Kirthag

Former Stratics Publisher
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Benefactor
Like I said, I am all for better in game documentation. I have been for it for literally 10+ years. But in most cases I feel like people would see something like a locked down item, or a skill being used in some way, and say "how do I do that?"
This - this is why I am doing what I'm doing on Pac. Having websites with info is awesome - but unless you have two monitors, flipping back and forth is a pain in the rear. That's why I got the Prima Guide back way when.

When I decided to have a thief, I spent hours upon hours in a single house on Napa. Why? The dude had books in there with hints, tips and stories that really helped me develop my thief. The only thing he lacked was lockpick boxes. then one day his house fell... and all those books went poof cos no one picked them up. :( I wish I was there when his house went idoc - I would have saved all those books. *sigh*

Sometimes, the best treasures are those popularly believed to be worthless.
 

Gamer_Goblin

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Maybe WARRIOR skills but how do you GM Spell Casting without an LRC suit and there is no way you could come close to Taming. Some of the crafting skills would take a lot longer on Haven then anywhere else also.
I said taming and an LRC suit doesn't magically appear leaving Haven. You could GM casting skills just as easily on Haven as anywhere else. Except maybe spellweaving, but that's not a starting skill. You can't even choose it creating character. Also, how would the crafting skills take longer on Haven? Imbuing, ya.

So the list of bad Haven training is still short and is Taming, Lockpicking, Provocation, Discordance, Spellweaving, Mining (Just because of the Ettins) and Imbuing? Everything else is just as GM'able on Haven as anywhere else.
 

Kirthag

Former Stratics Publisher
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Benefactor
UO is a game, meant to be exciting, enjoyable, challenging - but not impossible. To be played for leisure and relaxation - not to be a grind and work work work - although some do see it that way. That is not the intent of a game... My OCD-ness gets fulfilled by working my skills. My venting is done in dungeons. But what I personally enjoy about UO is my collecting and helping others.

The point I've been trying to make is that for most of us who came into UO - we came due to friendships. I personally don't remember ever seeing an advertisement for UO anywhere... ever. But then Hawaii is relatively last when it comes to stuff like that (we are not a mass market).

So we came into UO via friends and word-of-mouth - the best advertising avenue in the world. Although I agree - Broadsword needs to do _some_ sort of marketing due to the plethora of competition it has now.Without it - the community can only do so much.

And it is the Community that makes this game what it is.

By comparison, WoW can be a solo'd game. I played WoW for years, grinding away, without ever having joined a guild. I only joined a guild when the WoD expansion came out (a couple years ago) simply because of a quest that required it. Otherwise, would probably still be a soloist in Azeroth.

Diablo is easily solo'd. Yeah, could get more gear and stuff with others, but I prefer venting my frustration in Torment-IX by myself, tyvm. If I were to be in vent with others, they'd kick me due to potty mouth and screaming. :D


Now UO.... is special. Not in the padded helmet way (although some would argue that), but in that you NEED to have community - especially as a new/young player. Returning Players have an advantage in that they understand the basic mechanics - but a real newb is just clueless as all get out. The utter basics are taken for granted today, as yes, the next generations of gamers are indeed computer savvy - my 5 year old grandson is already playing games like Minecraft! And he's damn good at it too! By the time he's old enough to pay for his own subscription to a game, will it be UO? Will UO still be around in twenty years? (I hope so!)

Not everyone in the community need support the newbs... I believe that leads into the Blue vs Red (Tram vs Fel) argument and will not be going there in this post. But without the community aspect (read population) - a new player get lost, feels inept, gets frustrated, and leaves.

What game mechanic/feature/AI can be created by the devs to simulate the community aspect of this game? Is that the question this thread is addressing?

~~~~

In medieval times, when a lad left his home, he had not much with him. A regular farm boy would have the clothes on his back, perhaps a copper or two in his pocket, and if a favored son, a knife or dagger with an old mule.
When a lord's son went into the world, he would have a bit more - a horse, maybe a couple changes a clothes, some gold, and a sword with a vassal for companionship and nary I say, protection.

Girls rarely left their home unless it was to marriage and her dowry was given to the "lucky" man.

In Fantasy-Medieval (which I believe UO is) a correlation is made. No horse, but can purchase one for about half of your beginning gold - which makes that horse rather valuable in my book. I can see a young person's horse being auto-bonded. Now with barely 500 gold, what is a young one to do?

The beginning gear is enough to start out - but true young ones should be planted directly in the middle of New Haven. The auto-barking from the NPCs should be rather clear, "Read the book in your pack! It has valuable information you need!" And every new player should have a "Book of Sosarian Wisdom" in their pack. That - there - would be a blessed item that cannot be edited. That, there would contain info on various aspects of things...
The Virtues (as this is the basis of the game, yes?)
Introduction to Cities (goes over the major cities - each city has a page)
Introduction to Monsters (only the newb-level monsters and those found outside of dungeons)
Moongates & Travel (What the different colors mean and how Recalls work)
Primer on Skills (Not every skill, but what skills are needed for what class)
Dungeons & Quests (explains each in general, and explains the quest types)
The Facets of the World (kinda works with Moongates, but gives a low-down on what each facet is about)
Community (explains guilds, general player types, etc. and links to the fansites)

Then, reading said book is the player's choice - they can read it or throw it away or keep it in their bank or carry it for reference. It is in the game, easy to grab and read for quick decision making, and will not require an outside website. The book is not a tell all, but a guide, much like Prima was, but muchly condensed.


Something that we did on Napa for new players was have "newbie packs" the contents of which contained:
2 marked runes - one to WBB the other to Brit Gate
10 recall scrolls
Food (for back then we had to eat)
Bandaids
3 nightsight postions
3 heal potions
dagger
scissors
A 40pg book explaining the use of everything in the pack and sometimes an invite to join yadda yadda guild

So maybe a pack like that for each new account? say on the first character created? Not every character - as I think utterly new people will stick to one character until they realize they really learn the game. I didn't make my second character (that be Minerva, renamed her to Tandy) until about 6 years after Kirthag was well settled as a warrior and fighting.



Dare I say it.. some of those "shall not be named" places based on UO do precisely that - provide a newbie pack with books explaining things. Some of those places even have special packs for special classes. It is all scripted in so is not that hard to do. The reason for doing this? The people managing these places know that without the high population to build community, the new people will leave.

And where do these new people come from? Well, those "shall not be named" places actually advertise.. yes they do. And they get greenies all the time. And eventually, those greenies get curious about the "prodo shards" and thus come to us during RTB or with a trail account. Some of them get really frustrated, but they understand the basics at minimum.
 

Kirthag

Former Stratics Publisher
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Benefactor
Strongly disagree. It's not up to us at all.



Again, strongly disagree.
*sigh*

You are welcome to disagree. I disagree with your disagreement based on the simple fact that you don't explain your disagreeable self. *shrug*

Not wanting to force a play style on anyone - if you don't want to assist new players, that is your prerogative.
 

Spock's Beard

Sage
Stratics Veteran
The only thing not on Haven that was in Despise is Lizardmen. You could easily replace this with Ettins. Except for the Spined Leather as someone mentioned.
Despise had a clear and useful progression of lizardmen > ettins > earth elementals > cyclops & titans > ogre lords.

Haven has skeletons, a spawn of two whole ettins, a cave where you're immediately fighting 3+ earthies at once, and then a room with four ogre lords in close proximity that serves absolutely no purpose because anyone who can handle them isn't a newbie and has better things to do.

Despise was infinitely better than New Haven.
 

Gamer_Goblin

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Despise had a clear and useful progression of lizardmen > ettins > earth elementals > cyclops & titans > ogre lords.

Haven has skeletons, a spawn of two whole ettins, a cave where you're immediately fighting 3+ earthies at once, and then a room with four ogre lords in close proximity that serves absolutely no purpose because anyone who can handle them isn't a newbie and has better things to do.

Despise was infinitely better than New Haven.
I disagree, I remember Despise too. The progression is still there. The Ettin phase of training is very short, but yes... having just two is a bit of a hassle. The Boglings work too though... and the reds are on the island. People are just complaining to complain. I've long come to the understanding that people will complain no matter what. Haven is perfectly capable of training skills. But Blackthorns more resembles the progression you miss from Despise. Earth Eles are down there too... giant spiders, reds, skeletons, hellhounds, Gold Elementals. It's a lot better than Despise ever was. And after training in there you may be on your way to a high level item or gold from selling the minors.

All things that teach you how to play the game...

And to your point about the three earth eles ready to jump on you in the mine... It teaches that you need survival skills like parrying and high resists (Just focusing on physical) or stamina and mobility. It's also easy to learn how to lead them off to make a more controllable spawn.

All things that you need to know for everything off the island.
 

Uvtha

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You are welcome to disagree. I disagree with your disagreement based on the simple fact that you don't explain your disagreeable self. *shrug*
I think it would have been better put to say: "It SHOULDN'T be on us." That I can agree with. It shouldn't be up to the paying customers to make it a better game, it should be on the developers. The players should be playing, not mentoring... unless they WANT to. Of course, people will always need and want mentors regardless of the info present, but it really should not be up to us to teach new players how to play, or frankly (as often comes up on siege) to attract new players, or keep people entertained.

This game has lacked official documentation for wayyyyyy too long, to the point where the community has to do it all, which can sometimes be hard for new players (who may expect an official playguide) to find.

I don't want to imply that players shouldn't be working to make a nice community, but I feel like people feel like it's their job to do the things the developers should be doing far too often, which is more the fault of the developer than the player. Either way, it's an uphill battle, I think.
 

Spock's Beard

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I disagree, I remember Despise too. The progression is still there. The Ettin phase of training is very short, but yes... having just two is a bit of a hassle. The Boglings work too though... and the reds are on the island. People are just complaining to complain. I've long come to the understanding that people will complain no matter what.
Nonsense. I remember people on here, Malag'Aste in particular, telling the devs to make sure they don't wreck Despise, because it gets a lot of traffic and a lot of newbies, long before they ever got around to actually changing it. I used to be able to shove a newbie into Despise and have him come out a week later with GM skills and enough gold for a smallish house. The idea that having them suck around Haven killing boglings for 60 gold or whatever is somehow just as good isn't worth humoring. Blackthorns is a bit better than that, but by Blackthorns I mean "the gold ele room as long as it's not already taken and no liches wander down" and basically nothing else.

There's just no excuse for the way they plowed the game's default newbie dungeon under in order to make room for some stupid-ass minigame nobody even likes. I don't think they did it on purpose, I just think they're incredibly out of touch.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Sniping, should be obvious what I'm replying to..
I would say that a lot of what you said there I do agree with, the new player starting equip/packs, if for not other reason that it's irritating taking all that crap off and throwing it on the floor. Candles, daggers, etc.

I don't think it would be hugely difficult to make it so that a new player started with a book that automatically opened and contained the basic controls from the original game manual. How to move/click things etc, how to Bank/withdraw (probably omitted in the original but needed now), a few other voice commands for pets, skill and stat locks, radar, Moongates. Much beyond that I would say learn as they go but definitely like that idea!
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
*sigh*

You are welcome to disagree. I disagree with your disagreement based on the simple fact that you don't explain your disagreeable self. *shrug*

Not wanting to force a play style on anyone - if you don't want to assist new players, that is your prerogative.
I did explain it. It's not up to us what the devs put in the game.

I do assist new players. I just don't believe they need a lot of the things people are saying they do, that takes away from the fun of being new imo. Much as I hate sayings, and even more using sayings to illustrate points, that one 'Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach him to fish and he will deplete the river and kill wildlife... just kidding, teach him to fish and he will eat his whole life' is similar to how I see assisting people. I'd rather impart just enough knowledge for them to get curious, figure it out themselves and get a sense of accomplishment, instead of just giving them the shiny at the end.
 

Kirthag

Former Stratics Publisher
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Benefactor
@Lord GOD(GOD)
Wow... we do agree on some things! ^.^

Discovery is a wonderful thing in games. Back in 1997, 1998 & 1999 there were no other games to compare to or get tempted by so UO was the "it" thing.
Now is different, and _some_ level of catering needs to be made. Not giving the boat and oar, but the tools to make such, and let the player discover more things that can be done with those tools.


Well, I gots "tools" to finish over on Pac. Feel free to come visit and we can debate the pros and cons of the finer points of newb-education. :D
 
Top