VvV Success or Fail?

[Scribbles]

Just wanted to do a quick poll on VvV and how everyone thought it was going.

Personally I think it has been a Fail. I could list multiple reasons why but in all reality i just want to hear what you guys have to say. Its much more fun that way for me.

 

[Smoot]

I would say its a success based on it did what it was intended to do (which wasnt much)

fixed issue where faction players got stat loss from death from non-faction
more people involved in combat without risk of murder count
geared towards small shards where only a few people may be on at a time
created some sort of statistics / leaderboards

that being said, all that could have been done without a whole new system
hiding / stealing element was over done. in my opinion not condusive to the amount of players in UO today
rewards are ok, but need updates / new rewards every few months.

 

[kaio]

VvV is a fail.
- Orange to everyone shard wide, eleminates the need for reds vs blue.
- Devaluates alot of artifacts on the marked.
- Getting orange from healing a guildmates, that is defending a champ(or anything else) is a very bad idea.
( Sometimes you even get orange when u defend yourself)
- Royal pardons, ruined the marked for normal pardons (pardons are like 75k to 200k on atl atm..used to be 750-2m )
- ...

 

[Ellie]

I say a bit of both.
Trade quests can be hard to do. Im on Siege and if a town is under attack while either doing one or trying to turn one in, you have to either get out of town or dont go. We cant go to another facet to do the quests.

You cant see your self as orange so you dont know if your safe or not.

Move the areas out of town somewhere. There are faction bases that are used for nothing now.

I do have fun stealing the sigils though.

 

[DJAd]

I see more oranges fighting at yew gate than I do at the towns.

 

[Lord Arm]

it is split with me. a few things to fix would be royal pardons - make one time use. everyone is blue, I used to enjoy killing reds(murderers) with my blue and killing blues with my red. where's the justice in this lol. if u are alone or with small group, u are even more screwed than before which I wont go into, but causes less pvp. for pvm, everyone could be orange after fighting boss, if there's one vv guy with you. kinda of sucks having vv blues raid non vv blues without any repercussions. most people I know don't pvp like before vv. atl and larger shards may have more pvp, not sure. people are killing a vv on multi-accounts to get points for leaderboards. who would of thought this would happen lol. I want to kill reds lol.

 

[cazador]

The framework of the system is in place. But it was released extremely barebones..honestly I don't blame them. They left it very open ended to do more work/tweak and balance it..but it can't stay bonebones for months and months..then it becomes Faction Part II..fix it and fix it quick


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[Giggles]

Its a Success in the sense that more people use this system now then they did the factions system. (speaking of current times only, not 10 years ago)

Its a failure in the town warfare. Too many unfixed bugs, guards turn back on too fast, and not to mention after you have the "new stuff", there is really no point to the town battles.

I think the system still holds promise if they would revisit it, fix some issues, and add some content to it. I don't think its fair to say its a total failure, but it needs some TLC.

 

[HoneythornGump]

VvV destroyed Treasure Hunting. Treasure Hunting is DEAD.

There is no money Treasure Hunting anymore vs. the amount of time invested. Every 30 Level 6 maps you may get lucky, and get a decent Legendary item. However, since Legendary items have dropped in price the overall time just isn't worth it.

Treasure Hunting has been a integral part of Ultima for a long time, I did it almost exclusively until VvV made the one profitable item completely obsolete.

Why the (expletive) would you destroy something that's a major part of the game !?

Is it in the game's interest to give players a reason to create another character, hence farm and buy scrolls for those new characters, or maybe even add another account?

Instead they did the reverse, and gave sociopaths an endless reprieve.

 

[Spock's Beard]

Instead they did the reverse, and gave sociopaths an endless reprieve.

WTF are you talking about? People doing PVP aren't sociopaths. This isn't 1999 and people aren't PKing your RP wedding. Get over it.

 

[HoneythornGump]

WTF are you talking about? People doing PVP aren't sociopaths. This isn't 1999 and people aren't PKing your RP wedding. Get over it.

That's because 95% of the playerbase is in Trammel, and out of harm's way.

Regardless, incorporating Pardons into VvV at the cost of making Treasure Hunting obsolete was a stupid idea.

 

[Giggles]

VvV destroyed Treasure Hunting. Treasure Hunting is DEAD.

There is no money Treasure Hunting anymore vs. the amount of time invested. Every 30 Level 6 maps you may get lucky, and get a decent Legendary item. However, since Legendary items have dropped in price the overall time just isn't worth it.

Treasure Hunting has been a integral part of Ultima for a long time, I did it almost exclusively until VvV made the one profitable item completely obsolete.

Why the (expletive) would you destroy something that's a major part of the game !?

Is it in the game's interest to give players a reason to create another character, hence farm and buy scrolls for those new characters, or maybe even add another account?

Instead they did the reverse, and gave sociopaths an endless reprieve.

There are many benefits to t-hunting without forged pardons. Alacrity's, imbuing mats, gears, and other stuff. Honestly anything pvp related should be in the hands of us "sociopaths", they shouldn't have been added to tmapping anyways in my opinion. Forged pardons have only been obtainable the past 4 years. Tmaps had a purpose long before they were added, and they still have a purpose.
Just my two cents.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

A good system to built upon but needs more depth to really engage more play styles.

-Allow people to declare Vice, Virtue or remain Independent as they are now.
-Focus on town control aspects rather then items and rewards. Let Trammal elect govenors and felucca war for town control. (What's the point of Besieging a town, if not to take it over or in reverse retain control). For Siege allow non governor towns be determined by war and remove VvV sieges from towns with elected governors.
-Remove vending machine artifacts and allow crafters to make the VvV items in an active VvV town.
-Make traps craftable rather then vending machine traps.
-Add PVM aspects so non pvpers can help support Virtue, or Vice by taking on missions to slay opposing monsters.
-Improve the MYUO experience by linking VvV points etc to guilds, and players in system.
-Improve kills and points so they are not easily farmed and a better reflection of actual VvV participation.
-Make forged pardons a one time use only.

 

[Smoot]

I dont see the diminished value of pardons an example of if VvV is success / fail. games get updated. In UO as well as others some things always become outdated.

Lets remember treasure hunting also go a massive boost from global loot, overall from a pure gold value perspective maps are worth more now than when pardons had high value. Times change. Id rather see people actually pvping to get pardons rather than pvm treasure maps, it just makes more sense anyways.

 

[Smoot]

lets also remember that this poll is completely useless given whos voting. UOhallers (such as myself) are probably the furthest thing from a clear indicator of overall success of the system.

briefly looking over the voters so far, only 4 or 5 of the 25 voters were known to pvp much at all no matter what system.

 

[cazador]

Pardons in general never should of been added at all in UO. There's no real repercussions to your actions for anything anymore. Dread Lord means nothing..going red means nothing! But who are we to complain, if Stratics was archived correctly back to when all of these things came into UO there would be tons of the same people complaining that their beloved red should have a way to become blue because that character means something to them. I vote the take pardons away completely and make you commit acts as you will, but pay the price if you do.


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[FrejaSP]

I will say success, I'm doing PvP Again and enjoy it. It's a new system, but imo much better than faction.
I like it works with the guild and alliances.
I like each guild member can choose VvV or not.
At the start, I was against it being in towns but except for the orange flaging, it works fine.

 

[Merus]

I voted success as I believe it improved on some of the flaws I saw in factions. Here is to hoping it continues to get attention because it still has a lot to be added to be a good pvp system.

 

[kelmo]

I will vote success as I am still interested. The vending machine artifacts were kept off of Siege.
That is good in my book.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

Yea, I agree with most here.

You can't really put this into a Pass/Fail vote. You need a middle vote, because I also feel it has the frame work to be something fun. They just left it underdeveloped, and that was probably with a purpose. Maybe this new expansion will give it some love.

Are there things that directly effect another, absolutely. That happens with all changes.

The only thing I fear with leaving things underdeveloped is the fact it takes time to come back to the unfinished product. Every Year do we lose subs, yes. Every Year do people come back, yes? Is there a balance between the two? In order to keep people playing we need content, that means constant updates even if they are small.

I would rather see the dev's slowly introduce things every month or two than do a hard push and sit back for 12-18 months and work on something else. If they did some kind of conquest in VvV where every few months a new goal was implemented I think it would keep VvV more active. That's just my opinion...

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

lets also remember that this poll is completely useless given whos voting. UOhallers (such as myself) are probably the furthest thing from a clear indicator of overall success of the system.

briefly looking over the voters so far, only 4 or 5 of the 25 voters were known to pvp much at all no matter what system.

This is very true, but you also got to realize that the number of PvPers in comparison to Non PvPers is probably less than that. I would say for every 1 PvPer we have 30-40 Non Pvpers. This system is at least a good start to introduce people to PvP.

The issue that I see stopping many people from becoming more active in PvP is the abusive slander current PvPer's use AND the simple fact Zergs are not really necessary anymore. Zergs were a vital role in PvP. They were the force to fight against. Skilled PvPer's loved fighting in smaller groups against Zergs, while Zergs let the less skilled PvPer's learn how to fight. When I first really got into PvP I was part of a HUGE Zerg and it let me do a lot of things. I didn't die nearly as much because there are more 'Targets" for the opposition. The better PvPer's in the zerg took the time to teach and help with suits because building up their guild gave them more power. Controlling spawns was a huge power grab, so of course if you wanted power you needed to win at all costs. Zergs were the answer for that.

Right now in VvV or any other consensual PvP there is absolutely no reason for a zerg. No one really cares about getting the scrolls from a Champ/harry, it has become a means to brag. If the value of the scrolls was still as high as it once was we would still see Zergs. Trammy or not, everyone likes gold...

 

[Scribbles]

Thanks for keeping this a relatively constructive thread. I agree with most of your opinions, there is a great foundation laid out but needs a lot of work to be good.

1. To me there is still no reason for me to go to a town and try to win it. Even on Atl, there are very few times ive seen people trying to control an alter like they would a harry.

2. The artifacts have to go. I see more pvm, trammies using them than i do pvpers. The abuse of this system is hilarious. perhaps the arties should decay as soon as you step into trammel. at the very least there should be no points given just for joining, you should have to earn that crimson.

3. There is no forced interaction between the thieves of vvv and the pvpers. I think the thieves should have an alter themselves to hold, perhaps for a shorter amount of time. I do like that VvV tried to include thieves in the process, but i dont think they thought it all the way through.

4. I hate that i have to be in a guild to make VvV work. I hate that my non VvV guildmates get flagged orange when they heal me at a spawn. VvV should stay in VvV areas only.

5. Pvpers are notorious Guild jumpers, Guilds and their members change constantly, why cant silver go with the player instead of starting over every time? The players stats go, how hard would it be to have the silver jump to?

6. VvV has turned into a farming area. I see more people farming points rather than actually playing it. Please kill the farming aspect of VvV.

7. Make the vice or virtue actually have some sort of meaning? At this point there is no rhyme or reason to it.

8. Royal pardons... Pardons in general... please get rid of them, there is no repercussions for being red these days. Being red has a lot of history and pride to it, It has been relatively ruined by factions/VvV. Pardons are just one aspect of that.

9. Make VvV worth it for trammies to flood in. PvP has only thrived when there was a reason for people to come to fel. I get that you tried to do that with the arties, but i dont think that is forcing them into participating. They grab their item and never come back. Perhaps This could be tied in with the governor system in which citizens would have to show their loyalty by going to fel to defend their beloved city.

10. Get rid of that ridiculously huge menu that i cant click out of for VvV. I think it should be the size of a health bar, that can be double clicked into the current size. Also it should carry stats that matter. Make it like a health bar but change the stats to things that are relevant.

11. When VvV town is done there needs to be a buffer for reds to rez, people to get out... perhaps 3 minutes would do.

12. Traps should be put up automatically. As much as i love the ideas of players putting out poison traps and blad traps to catch stealthers... This only works if the town remains active. Putting up these traps for a limited time is pointless. When a town comes up traps should be put across the entire town to make it more of a war zone feel and make it harder for stealthers to stay hidden.

13. Trinsic paladins are still attacking reds, whether this is good or bad, it can be and has been used as an exploit for trapping people.

14. In order to occupy a city an alter should be won, someone should have been killed, and a sigil should be returned. Until you meet all three of those you dont get to occupy the city. this forces the team play you were trying for with adding a thief section to VvV. It isnt hard to walk into a town with no one in it to occupy it. This also helps prevent some of the afk farming ive seen going on more dead shards.

15. Monsters should spawn around alters when being claimed. This helps with eliminating the farmers as well. every tier that gets lit a new mob/boss spawns. This might also help give a reason for trammies to come to fel and participate.

16. The point system is very far off from showing actual participation. Again the farmers are winning, not the people that actually fight.


Just some of the reasons why i think its a fail. Not saying it cant be a success, but it is definitely failing in the status quo by my book.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

These are valid points, some of personal preference. I feel as though we have to come up with an actual solution instead of all these little fixes. I mean think about it, if you fix everything you stated is there still a purpose to fight? Points and ranking? Not sure about you, but that really doesn't matter. Solo players will always have a higher death to kill ratio because they fight out numbered 90% of the time.

The towns need an actual purpose for people to get engaged. Something that brings a new element to the game that will ultimately give people an edge over the rest. Make it shard bound so the less populated shards don't get farmed. It also needs to be something that the majority would need otherwise the non pvper will still have no reason to participate.

In all honesty, 90% of the current rewards could be eliminated and replaced. All artifacts can go. The pots are imo the only thing on there that are only attainable through the system. The deco is nice and can stay, but they should definitely not be the end game reward. The traps are just plain stupid. Every town is way to big to place traps that will work effectively.

An end game mob would be pretty sweet. Say it costs 20k silver to get the gem to plant and it spawns in a random town (yea, kinda like a harry in dungeons). Public gate opens at blackthorns and the battle begins. The rewards for killing the mob? That is something I don't have an idea for. I have no clue what would entice the majority of the player base to participate. The only thing I can think of would be increasing skill cap and skill points, but I have a feeling that will be met with a lot of opposition.

 

[Scribbles]

I would love to see a harry get spawned every time a guild/player won several cities in a row. Win ten cities in a row and a harry spawns in that city... would crazy cool. So many cool ideas to be thrown around, However we as players dont know what restrictions the devs are dealing with.

We arent coders (for the most part).
We arent supposed to know how the game works internally (even though a lot do) .
We are simply the drivers, not the mechanics. I can tell my mechanic what the car is doing but not necessarily how to fix it. I can tell the mechanic what would be awesome but have little knowledge if its achievable.

I really hope the Devs dont put VvV on the back burner much longer as its heading towards faction status quickly. I love the lay out, but there is a lot of continual work that needs to be done to keep it fun.

 

[Merus]

I definitely think there needs to be a semi-persistent bonus outcome tied to controlling towns. Something desired by all so it is worth fighting over beyond just bragging rights...

On a side note to that... Why is it that Harry has such an abysmal loot table compared with something like Exodus? Don't get me wrong, Exodus is a beast (with a wink and a nod) but does not carry near the risk that a Harry does. They both give stat scrolls, but IMO Harry's loot should be off the hook...

 

[kelmo]

I was sadly disappointed that I could not trap an area to run through.

 

[Spock's Beard]

That's because 95% of the playerbase is in Trammel, and out of harm's way.

And they have been for nearly a generation now, so maybe people should just get over how they got killed in a videogame a decade and a half ago. At this point it's like running out onto a paintball field and whining about all the "sociopaths" shooting you with paint.

 

[Promathia]

"Red" is such an archaic thing in an MMO anyways. The fact that simply pvping results in you being cut off from 90% of the game's content is honestly remarkable in this day and age.

Whether VvV is a success or not, honestly will be determined in the future. It all depends on if VvV gets continually improved upon in the future.

1. Make the leader boards mean something. Introduce seasons where the leaderboard gets wiped before each new season. Reward the top 1-3 players per shard at the end of each season.
2. Make the battles mean something - More incentive to winning city battles (Perhaps can be done with point 1)
3. Increase the reward pool over time - Continue to add new rewards to provide incentive for taking part in the system

An end game mob would be pretty sweet.

Mobs in a pvp system? Sounds familiar, but I agree, it would be pretty sweet (As long as the rewards are good enough to warrant people actually doing it)



** I voted Success, purely because the framework is now in place for the future.

 

[Giggles]

I have always thought VvV should incooperate a pvm type objective. Maybe when you "win" a town you get a town sigil. all the town sigils together could summon a special stronghold type situation where after a mini objective has been reached there, a special champion is summoned. Make it something more difficult than the standard champ. Maybe something like the Harrower (Just more powerful). And have unique fel based drops when your group kills him. They could get even more creative and add a super rare drop like an awesome mount or something.

I think Its good to in-cooperate pvm to some degree. It gives people more of a interest in pvp as a whole when they have an objective that they can accomplish. It also appeals to the PvP curious types that don't necessarily want to pvp, but will attempt pvp over said goal. ALSO it includes the pvmers of a guild and gives them something to do while the pvpers try and defend.

It becomes more of a group effort based objective outside of just beating chests and having the most kills. The pvpers who want to pvp will do so anywhere. If we want a system worth doing, defending, scouting, and hoarding, I think some pvm element should be added to the very final chapter of the entire system. As well as some rewards worth trying to get.. more so then just points at a turn in.

 

[chargar42]

Success...Every Sunday on Siege is a huge pvp fest....Hasnt been this much pvp on siege in quite a while.