The diminishing of pvp. Gameplay problem or player problem?

[Lythos-]

The sad truth is, if the state of PvP is such that it isn't fun for most people and they are going to refuse to do it unless exclusive rewards overwhelmingly compel them to try, the problem is not with the rewards. I also mentioned the lack of accessibility but I realize just from my conversations with people in game that this is not a hindrance to most people still playing UO as multi-accounts of substantial age and being richer than god seems to be normal. Speaking for myself, I could spend the next 2 months re-tooling a character just for PvP, or I could load up League of Legends and play PvP right now on an equal footing...

^^Winner winner chicken dinner.

When 1 competitive suit is costing close to a billion gold you either have to pvm a ton or give it up. This is why RTB will fail in every way. There's no way anyone is going to come back unless they're willing to pay real $ to compete. I've got 8 pvp characters with only 2 decently suited.

My main problem is i have had ROUGH lag for the past few years. It's been reported and reported yet it's the same ****. No other game gives me the trouble this one does. I tried to fight it because i really do like the game but the past few months I've gotten more enjoyment loading steam and playing CS crackhouse where i get no lag and also jump right into pvping.

 

[Llewen]

See here's where I have a problem with that whole "black mark" BS she pulled. I personally have 1-2 black marks on my account. One was for swearing in general chat during a debate, not even targeted at a player. The second was for afk macroing hiding years ago with a nickel in my escape key. Never once was i suspended, banned or reprimanded for using 3rd party programs, or in question of using a speeder of any kind. So even with that, I wouldmt even be considered for a focus group involving "the only" thing I do within the game. Some of us know a few of the focus group members, and let it be said on record. One of them spends 80% of his time on dummy accounts afk farming artifacts, and the other 20% bank sitting with his leet gear! You know who you are so much for a "PvP" focus group!


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That's exactly what I was getting at.

 

[Captn Norrington]

Personally, I think the diminishing of pvp is partially gameplay, and partially people. The developers really do need to study what people like about pvp, and try to accomodate those needs, but at the same time, people need to stop being so picky about how they pvp. Ok, yes, I understand VvV isn't as good as factions in some people's opinions, but at least try it for a few weeks before deciding you'll never use it. People always seem to stomp their feet and refuse to do something in UO unless it's nearly perfect. It doesnt have to be perfect to be fun, before trammel pvp was just naked mages running through felucca forests, and everyone seemed fine with that. If something isn't fun, try to find a way to make it fun

 

[Picus at the office]

I don't fully agree with the 1 bil suit needed to compete, it helps but I have a goodly number of chars with "good" suits that I made but none with the truelly leet stuff and they can all hold themselves.

To be mentioned that I play dexxers as I fall into that not skilled enough to be a mage section of the game but I believe that you could make a fine suit for a mage all the same.

 

[Viper09]

I don't fully agree with the 1 bil suit needed to compete, it helps but I have a goodly number of chars with "good" suits that I made but none with the truelly leet stuff and they can all hold themselves.

To be mentioned that I play dexxers as I fall into that not skilled enough to be a mage section of the game but I believe that you could make a fine suit for a mage all the same.

It is true one doesn't necessarily need a great suit to compete, but there still exists a gap in knowledge of what is even to be considered a "good" suit. A player who has never PvPed before wouldn't even know what a decent suit would be for PvP. Most of the time they may just show up with their PvM suits to PvP (and probably on their PvM template , too).

 

[Picus at the office]

Ok the above post says what I thought but, clearly, could not say.

 

[Duskofdead]

It is true one doesn't necessarily need a great suit to compete, but there still exists a gap in knowledge of what is even to be considered a "good" suit. A player who has never PvPed before wouldn't even know what a decent suit would be for PvP. Most of the time they may just show up with their PvM suits to PvP (and probably on their PvM template , too).

Were I to even try, that would be me, big time. I just don't even know what's good or needed for PvP. I can only indirectly guess at what might be prized for PvP purposes when I see enormous price tags on certain jewelry or gear.

 

[drcossack]

Were I to even try, that would be me, big time. I just don't even know what's good or needed for PvP. I can only indirectly guess at what might be prized for PvP purposes when I see enormous price tags on certain jewelry or gear.

I only pvp on mages (well, 99% of the time. The other 1%, I've been on my sampire when I get raided. That always ends badly though), and you want resists (60+ for all elemental, with 70 phys), LRC, LMC, MR (I have 20+ MR on all my mage suits), etc. On one of my chars (pure mage strictly for dueling, who still needs to work poisoning), I have all of that (well, not the LMC yet, I still need to put jewels in the suit. I have enough stockpiled, I just need to go through them), plus max casting focus. I was able to do it purely through pieces looted off of Exodus and other bosses after Pub 86, in addition to 3 crafted pieces I had lying around.

The suits on my other chars are, iirc, all crafted (might have 2-3 pieces of dungeon loot in there) or vvv artifacts (Orny on my red, Crimson Cincture on my sampire)

If you want a suit, take a group (of, say, 9 people) and do Exodus for a few days. You'll get the stat scrolls if you need them, but you'll get some FANTASTIC loot too. The guild I'm in has done A LOT of Exodus runs since it's the fastest way to build suits, and we kill it in about 10 minutes - 2 tamers constantly xhealing our greaters, 3-4 mystics (RC'ing & also xhealing the pets), the rest of the group is archers/throwers.

edit: As far as expensive suits, that's, honestly, overblown. My very first pvp experience was a duel against a guy who I've been friends with since, and do you know what he wore? His FC/FCR jewelry. I could go to Fel with a suit imbued with the following: MR, LMC, LRC, and resists, and be just fine. When I pvp'd back in 2004-2005, I had two different suits - one was an LRC suit for field fighting, and the other didn't have LRC, which I used for dueling. The only additional properties my dueling suit had? Mana Regen and LMC, and maybe a couple others (Int Bonus/Mana Increase.) Granted, mana regen worked differently back then, but between two people of equal skill, a duel could have literally gone on forever (provided they didn't run out of mana)

If you're on a mage, you don't need any other properties. Anyone saying you need to spend 1 billion to compete is extremely mistaken. What you do need, however, is practice - the pvp'ers may all have expensive suits, but we worked to get them, whether it be from pvm'ing or crafting. Having that expensive suit doesn't mean you can compete with us though; against someone new to pvp, I could wear an old school GM-made suit and win. Once we got those suits (and even before, we'll upgrade suits as we go along), we were pvp'ing.

If you don't want to pvp, fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But don't say you won't do it because of the gear gap.

 

[cazador]

It is true one doesn't necessarily need a great suit to compete, but there still exists a gap in knowledge of what is even to be considered a "good" suit. A player who has never PvPed before wouldn't even know what a decent suit would be for PvP. Most of the time they may just show up with their PvM suits to PvP (and probably on their PvM template , too).

I fully enjoy using my sampire with a PvP weapon! Don't ruin my fun


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[Blood Ghoul]

The devs have all but admitted there is nothing they can do about 3rd party programs. Therefore i've ignored that element as i don't see it changing[/QUOTE

This is the reason most who like the idea of PVP but decide its not worth their time. They could always get rid of classic client as that would end 99% if not all of the scripting/cheating in the game.

 

[Viper09]

I fully enjoy using my sampire with a PvP weapon! Don't ruin my fun


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Well, ok, some PvM templates can be quite viable in PvP

 

[cazador]

@Blood Ghoul
I could name 3 EC cheats off hand..congrats on a completely biased statement! Just because you don't know they exists doesn't mean they don't..


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[Captn Norrington]

*Looks around for a moderator warning us not to start a client war since this is about when it usually happens*

 

[Blood Ghoul]

@Blood Ghoul
I could name 3 EC cheats off hand..congrats on a completely biased statement! Just because you don't know they exists doesn't mean they don't..


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Well then..that I did not know there were scripts and cheats for the EC that placed it on equal footing with Classic. I will concede my point. I was not trying to turn this into a client war at all as I guess I have long since been mistaken.

 

[Lythos-]

edit: As far as expensive suits, that's, honestly, overblown.

If you're on a mage, you don't need any other properties. Anyone saying you need to spend 1 billion to compete is extremely mistaken.

The billion gold came from my last price check from a highly popular suit builder. I do realize if I spent 2-3-5 weeks gathering kits and making it myself I could at a fraction of the price. The idea of crafting to me is flat out yucky.

I pvp to win, in 1v1 and groups. You're going to be at a major disadvantage right off the bat if you don't have equal items with reforged 18hpr, cf and the massive mana inc. To me it's equal to entering a dueling tourney with only gm mage/eval. You might get a kill here and there but you'll never be a constant factor.

This game has been item based since AoS. No matter what your skill is, you either adapt or get left behind. Just glance at the top pvpers on your shard. I can bet none of them are running flat imbued gear.

@Captn Norrington EC Is full of hax.

 

[cazador]

The billion gold came from my last price check from a highly popular suit builder. I do realize if I spent 2-3-5 weeks gathering kits and making it myself I could at a fraction of the price. The idea of crafting to me is flat out yucky.

I pvp to win, in 1v1 and groups. You're going to be at a major disadvantage right off the bat if you don't have equal items with reforged 18hpr, cf and the massive mana inc. To me it's equal to entering a dueling tourney with only gm mage/eval. You might get a kill here and there but you'll never be a constant factor.

This game has been item based since AoS. No matter what your skill is, you either adapt or get left behind. Just glance at the top pvpers on your shard. I can bet none of them are running flat imbued gear.

@Captn Norrington EC Is full of hax.

I have neither max hpr/mr/cf..I suXXorz!!!


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[The Zog historian]

Gump appears
"Committing this act will flag you for VvV, do you wish to proceed"

..common sense /end

That would in fact work, perhaps something similar to house teleporters. A gump wouldn't come up, but the default would be "Never perform beneficial acts on VvV," and it could be toggled via the character's context menu.

 

[The Zog historian]

*Looks around for a moderator warning us not to start a client war since this is about when it usually happens*

Wait till the trolls get involved!

 

[Captn Norrington]

I love that picture lol, sums the whole thing up perfectly

 

[Duskofdead]

If you don't want to pvp, fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But don't say you won't do it because of the gear gap.

I think even saying "you can do it with a half bill suit" puts PvP out of the reach of people who haven't been pretty heavily multi-accounting UO continuously for a number of years now. Which does seem to be "the norm" and the baseline from which everyone presumes things about everyone else's finances and such.

Like it or not, it is one of the many barriers to PvP entry if we're having an honest discussion about why few people do it. It may not be the main or only reason, but it is a reason.

 

[Assia Penryn]

I used to pvp a lot, both just fel random pvp and rp pvp. I don't do it anymore because of the homework needed to make a suit and with while rp pvp doesn't have to be as hardcore.. it is almost mostly dead. I don't find pvp enjoyable enough to spend the time to learn nor worth dropping even 500m on. Since I'm a solo player, it doesn't seem as fun as it once was.

I couldn't fathom being a new player in UO trying to compete in pvp.

 

[popps]

^^Winner winner chicken dinner.

When 1 competitive suit is costing close to a billion gold you either have to pvm a ton or give it up. This is why RTB will fail in every way. There's no way anyone is going to come back unless they're willing to pay real $ to compete. I've got 8 pvp characters with only 2 decently suited.

I used to pvp a lot, both just fel random pvp and rp pvp. I don't do it anymore because of the homework needed to make a suit and with while rp pvp doesn't have to be as hardcore.. it is almost mostly dead. I don't find pvp enjoyable enough to spend the time to learn nor worth dropping even 500m on. Since I'm a solo player, it doesn't seem as fun as it once was.

I couldn't fathom being a new player in UO trying to compete in pvp.

In order for PvP to thrive in Ultima Online players need to be able to be competitive, period.

How many players like to loose in PvP fights ? I would guess not many.....

I would imagine that players get into PvP with the goal to win fights, not to loose them..... thing is, that suits and modifiers matter and a whole lot also, otherwise, there would not be suits worth close to a billion gold or players willing to spend that much gold on a suit.

Competitive suits are worth so much because they gives an edge in fights, right ?

Now, that said, if we want MORE players to join PvP we need to make COMPETITIVE suits MORE available to players, not less.....

So, if my opinion, any and all designing changes which will make high end gear and weapons spawn more and be more readily available to players can only help out increasing the PvP player base because the better the suit that players can have, the more competitive they will feel and the more willing to enter the PvP arena they will be. Result ? A much wider PvP player base.

So, the key to a wider PvP player base is opening the Gates and flooding the game of high end gear and weapons either through spawns or through crafting. The best scenario would be all PvPers to have the same top notch gear as at that point only the "human" fighting ability will actually make the difference in fights as no longer PvPers could take advantage from a gear edge but only from their actual ability in fights.

So, bottom line is, IMHO, that to make PvP more popular all restrictions on making high end gear readily available should be lifted and players should be able to get it in a very reasonable time and without much grinding at all.

I am not saying to make the best suit available on day 1 of logging, but neither as it is now where it requires interminable grinding or the spending of close to a billion gold....... Ideally, for a much wider PvP base a top notch suit should be achievable, I would hope, through normal game play (like a couple of hours a day for a few days per week) in about 6 months or so, perhaps even a bit less......

 

[Zuckuss]

I still love it. It is one of the greatest thrills left in the game.

The tactics, the teamwork, the comradery, and the challenge of competing against a live opponent is one of the most satisfying and rewarding experiences which UO has to offer.

I am talking real, on the fly, unscripted, use all resources available to you pvp. The more difficult the opponent, the more rewarding the experience.

All it takes to pvp is the will to get out there and do it.

Just do it.

 

[popps]

Having that expensive suit doesn't mean you can compete with us though; against someone new to pvp, I could wear an old school GM-made suit and win.

Then, if "human" ability to PvP is the key factor to win a player-player fight, why not let then the Devs open the Gates and flood the game with high end items so that ALL players can "gear up" and be competitive in PvP more easily and in less time ?

Why the brakes for those who would like to join PvP but feel held back by the difficulties, the time and costs needed to "gear up" and be competitive?

Want more players to join PvP ? Feel confident that the "human" skill is the real factor which determines who wins a fight, not the worn gear?

Then what is the problem with opening the gates and make high end gear be more readily available to as many players as possible who wish to PvP but currently feel held back by the difficulties in putting up such a high end competitive suit ?

 

[Vexxed]

um.... BecausE This Game Is Ultimately A Business AND if they take away the grind people won't stay as long. On a side note pops it cracks me up every time I see a thread with PvP in the title and yet the last person that posted is you. I'd sincerely suggest doing some PvPing before being oh sooooo free with what YOU think about it.

 

[drcossack]

Then, if "human" ability to PvP is the key factor to win a player-player fight, why not let then the Devs open the Gates and flood the game with high end items so that ALL players can "gear up" and be competitive in PvP more easily and in less time ?

Why the brakes for those who would like to join PvP but feel held back by the difficulties, the time and costs needed to "gear up" and be competitive?

Want more players to join PvP ? Feel confident that the "human" skill is the real factor which determines who wins a fight, not the worn gear?

Then what is the problem with opening the gates and make high end gear be more readily available to as many players as possible who wish to PvP but currently feel held back by the difficulties in putting up such a high end competitive suit ?

Exactly. Pub 86 did that even more than the Shame revamp did. I don't know what kind of loot Exodus had before, but I (and guildmates) have pulled enough to make several suits. The pieces on the suit that I mentioned earlier (which has every single mod a mage would need/want) would likely sell for WELL over 100m, if I chose to do so. Half of that suit came from monster loot. I believe the non-crafted pieces (Bear Mask & Gloves) were from Exodus, while my Shield (which came from Barracoon) are all Legendary Artifacts. I could have used other pieces in the suit (and I have plenty to choose from), but I specifically wanted it to have max Casting Focus, so I prioritized pieces with it, then looked to see if the reforged stuff also had MR, LMC, what resists were, etc. I haven't had the pieces enhanced yet, so I'll easily be all 70's once that's done, and approximately 20 MR (Blackthorn Luck Garb/Doublet, Tangle, and if there's MR on my jewelry)

All of my suits come from reforged gear, imbued gear, artifacts/Blackthorn drops, and dungeon loot. While even those were fairly expensive, all someone needs to pvp is, ultimately, a little time. Would going with a mixed bag (as far as where/how you get your suit) with mods out the ass be extremely helpful? Absolutely. But, for pvp 101, all you need is imbuing (or a guildmate who builds your suits for you...), then you just have to go out and practice.

When someone's learning pvp, are you going to, suit or not, go all out on them? Likely not. While it depends on the person, but chances are they may not stick around. If you ease them into it, they'll be more likely to stick around and try to get better.

 

[Duskofdead]

um.... BecausE This Game Is Ultimately A Business AND if they take away the grind people won't stay as long. On a side note pops it cracks me up every time I see a thread with PvP in the title and yet the last person that posted is you. I'd sincerely suggest doing some PvPing before being oh sooooo free with what YOU think about it.

There are many successful entirely PvP games that involve no grind. I'm not sure saying "they have to attach a 900 hour grind to it or they won't have customers" is a valid point.

 

[Captn Norrington]

um.... BecausE This Game Is Ultimately A Business AND if they take away the grind people won't stay as long. On a side note pops it cracks me up every time I see a thread with PvP in the title and yet the last person that posted is you. I'd sincerely suggest doing some PvPing before being oh sooooo free with what YOU think about it.

I respectfully disagree with that, I'd guess that more people quit the game solely because of the grind than stay because they like it. I know from my experience as being leader of a relatively large Atlantic guild, that we always used to lose a ton of new recruits, and nearly half of them said they were quitting the game because the grind was ridiculous for every aspect of the game. When someone only has 1 hour a day to play a game, they don't want to spend the first 6 months grinding tons of things just to have the opportunity to actually play the game like a normal person. The skills for each character alone take months to train, assuming they don't use a script. Then add the grind to get all the gear on top of it....it just doesn't sound appealing to a new player, or even a veteran player who wants to try pvp. Personally, I decided to try actively pvp'ng last year, dropped nearly a billion on suits and SOT's, had fun for a few months, even got kinda good at it, then got tired of having to change my templates every week or two to keep up with the competition and gave up on it.

 

[cazador]

I used to pvp a lot, both just fel random pvp and rp pvp. I don't do it anymore because of the homework needed to make a suit and with while rp pvp doesn't have to be as hardcore.. it is almost mostly dead. I don't find pvp enjoyable enough to spend the time to learn nor worth dropping even 500m on. Since I'm a solo player, it doesn't seem as fun as it once was.

I couldn't fathom being a new player in UO trying to compete in pvp.

How could you not fathom the idea? Go start any new game from zero and let me know how long it takes to grind levels/gold and endgame PvP gear..the process is much faster in UO. Nevermind the fact there is no pro typical "end game gear" so as you level/grind your attaining tons of top end items. Especially now with the new loot tables..people that are coming from more modern MMO's find the learning curve here hard as it doesn't hold your hand. But when it comes to gearing up..it's much less daunting task "as in time" not the mathematics behind it, which is quite simple once you learn mechanics..


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[Duskofdead]

How could you not fathom the idea? Go start any new game from zero and let me know how long it takes to grind levels/gold and endgame PvP gear..the process is much faster in UO. Nevermind the fact there is no pro typical "end game gear" so as you level/grind your attaining tons of top end items. Especially now with the new loot tables..people that are coming from more modern MMO's find the learning curve here hard as it doesn't hold your hand. But when it comes to gearing up..it's much less daunting task "as in time" not the mathematics behind it, which is quite simple once you learn mechanics..


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When's the last time you levelled a character from 0 with no access to gold, no pinks, no full LRC suits or other gear passed along from your account? And with no access to soulstones?

What exactly does a player approaching 80's/90's in their primary skills go do to acquire the 6-20 million that may be involved in the purchase of a single powerscroll?

The best gear right now appears to be very heavily imbued/reforged items that a new player is not going to have the ability to craft themselves, either. Levelled up an imbuer? It's a pretty huge goldsink. It was pretty obviously designed around the assumption that UO has a lot of very old very rich vets who needed something interesting to sink time and resources into, it is not a beginner's skill for making gear or profit.

Just about every claim that reaching a state of finished competency in UO is "easy" starts off with assumptions of endless amounts of gold, houses stacked full of veteran reward items and the easy ability to use a transfer shield to hop to Atlantic to acquire whatever else you need.

 

[cazador]

When's the last time you levelled a character from 0 with no access to gold, no pinks, no full LRC suits or other gear passed along from your account? And with no access to soulstones?

What exactly does a player approaching 80's/90's in their primary skills go do to acquire the 6-20 million that may be involved in the purchase of a single powerscroll?

The best gear right now appears to be very heavily imbued/reforged items that a new player is not going to have the ability to craft themselves, either. Levelled up an imbuer? It's a pretty huge goldsink. It was pretty obviously designed around the assumption that UO has a lot of very old very rich vets who needed something interesting to sink time and resources into, it is not a beginner's skill for making gear or profit.

Just about every claim that reaching a state of finished competency in UO is "easy" starts off with assumptions of endless amounts of gold, houses stacked full of veteran reward items and the easy ability to use a transfer shield to hop to Atlantic to acquire whatever else you need.

I just started a character on Yomato with 0 gold/0 friends/0 help
90 tactics
120 fencing
100 parry
100 chivalry
99 necro
100 resist

In less than 3 weeks..

Currently have about 40-45mil just from off and on farming

I just killed Ele's from 50-70 bashed on a golem till GM..insanely easy 2-3 days GM fence/tact/Anat..I actually dropped anat

Why would I start looking for 120's in my 80's/90's and I wouldn't buy them. I'd farm rat spawns until I got them I would sell extra scrolls along the way.

The loot that drops now is insanely better than anything u can craft..

It costs literally 0 gold to level an imbuer..unravel all items and use resources..50 relic frags for 120 imbuing...granted it takes longer than spending the 2-3mil that takes literally no time at all to get..

It is extremely easy to level any character from 0..rember the people who would be trying would actually be playing the game. And like I said the "learning curve" is much much more extreme ten the actual game. Once you know the mechanics you are good..one site uoguide.com and the profession forums here is all you need.



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[Duskofdead]

I just started a character on Yomato with 0 gold/0 friends/0 help
90 tactics
120 fencing
100 parry
100 chivalry
99 necro
100 resist

In less than 3 weeks..

Currently have about 40-45mil just from off and on farming

I'm not sure I believe this claim, however:

Do you believe that the level of play (and also the level of game metaknowledge that speeded up your progress) to accomplish this in 3 weeks is something everyone walks into the game with?

A new player wouldn't even think to make that build you made, for starters.

 

[cazador]

I'm not sure I believe this claim, however:

Do you believe that the level of play (and also the level of game metaknowledge that speeded up your progress) to accomplish this in 3 weeks is something everyone walks into the game with?

A new player wouldn't even think to make that build you made, for starters.

Why is that so hard to believe? Do you think I actually sat there and mind numbingly gained my skills? I watched a movie or two as my fencer whacked away!!

Which is "exactly" why I said the learning curve and mechanics are the only thing holding new players back! Have I not said that 3 times..the game is quite easy once you understand it..for the fourth time.


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[popps]

um.... BecausE This Game Is Ultimately A Business AND if they take away the grind people won't stay as long.

Really ?

If PvP is fun, challenging, a thrill to fight against another fellow human being rather than a computer controlled character, how on earth could be making PvP more accessible to players and thus more played have players not stay long ?

I hardly see anyone saying that grinding is "fun" (actually most always seem to complain about having to spend their gaming time grinding and actually use scripting to avoid it...) yet, I seem to understand by your post that by reducing the grind people would quit playing.....

Sorry, but I do not understand that.

PvP is fun and grinding is tiresome but making PvP more accessible to players by reducing the boring grinding (because high end items would be more readily accessible to all players) would get people to quit playing ?

Makes no sense whatsoever to me, sorry.........

 

[Duskofdead]

Why is that so hard to believe? Do you think I actually sat there and mind numbingly gained my skills? I watched a movie or two as my fencer whacked away!!

Which is "exactly" why I said the learning curve and mechanics are the only thing holding new players back! Have I not said that 3 times..the game is quite easy once you understand it..for the fourth time.


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It is nonsensical to say that the grind doesn't hold new players back because the only thing holding new players back is lack of knowledge of how to best game the system, use macro programs and grind skills most efficiently. By definition, new players are not going to know how to do this stuff in the massively efficient way that people with many years of experience in the game do (and those players also have many more tools to make that process even more efficient, even though you are claiming you did not take advantage of any.)

You're basically saying "all that's holding new players back from having PvP-ready toons in 3 weeks is the fact that they're new." It's kind of a circular argument.

 

[cazador]

It is nonsensical to say that the grind doesn't hold new players back because the only thing holding new players back is lack of knowledge of how to best game the system, use macro programs and grind skills most efficiently. By definition, new players are not going to know how to do this stuff in the massively efficient way that people with many years of experience in the game do (and those players also have many more tools to make that process even more efficient, even though you are claiming you did not take advantage of any.)

You're basically saying "all that's holding new players back from having PvP-ready toons in 3 weeks is the fact that they're new." It's kind of a circular argument.

I didn't say it would only take 3 weeks to hold back people from PvP..however what I did say is that it doesn't take more than that to make a PvM or PvP character..now let's say for instance someone who decides to log into the game for the first time. Has no idea what or how to do it. What do you think would most likely happen? Well in all honesty One of three things.
-Walk around aimlessly (after finishing the oh so great newbie quest) then eventually fall into one of the next two categories..

-Find someone in game whom is willing to help them either (get started, or find the right direction to go) wether it's by browsing Stratics, or UOGuide or any other fan site, or getting into a comm together and grouping up.

-Or quit.

Now let's say they walk around aimlessly, at one point or another the "WILL" eventually find someone who is willing to lend them items,resources, and or knowledge. All which are helpful. Ok so that brings me to the second option.

They group up with people who DO know how the game works or at least a veteran who is willing to show them the ropes wether that's the correct skills for whatever template they desire to play (warrior, mage, tamer, bard) how to afk macro or where to go and legitimately gain. (I tend to give both options but suggest the legitimate way as to learn the ins and outs of healing and survival)

..and if all else fails the new player goes where many new players go..account inactive status.

To sit here and say a player knowing nothing about the game with zero guidance or help can hop right into PvP is a false statement. But with guidance and the correct know how..it's very simple, especially if who's guiding them "is" a pvper themselves. Regardless if you think so or not! Granted they will suck something fierce, but isn't that how we all started..

There is no point going back and forth, it's obvious you don't agree with me, and I don't agree with you..let's agree to disagree.



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