Some thoughts about Trammel and PvP

[FrejaSP]

Fel is for PvP. If players truly wish to PvP it's as simple as a recall spell away.

Fel will still be for the hardcore PvP'ers but I know, there are a lot, who would like to PvP if it was more about sharing some fun

Trammel is for those who don't wish to PvP, or don't wish to engage in it all the time.

Trammel will still be for them, nothing will changes here.

Have you ever asked yourself why there are so many more "Trammies" in this game than those who frequent Feluccia? It's been stated above, but I will restate the obvious....if it were not for griefing,speed hacking, rez killing, pot chugging/healing scripting, and over all prepubescent demeanor of those who frequent fel/pvp there would have never been a need for Trammel. You ( the collective you meaning pvp'ers not anyone in particular ) made your beds and now must lie in them. However now that Feluccia has become a ghost town on most every shard...by your own doing I might add...you want to force everyone to once again deal with your Trolling bs.

First this have nothing to do with trolling, it's my thread and no one force you to read it. I'm not trolling someone thread.
Second, I would like to ask you, where you got your knowledge about PvP's?
I do know, forcing all to accept PvP did not work. That's not what I try to do.
I don't believe you can set PvP'ers = cheaters as script miners and script PvM'ers have nothing to do with PvP. There will always be players who will abuse the game for own winning.

What do you really believe would happen, if PvP'ers was able to PvP on all facets but only vs others who choose to switch PvP on?
How would it effect you?

No one but you wants this, and we...as you like to call us the "Care Bears" outnumber you. You have an entire facet to yourselves, and all of these "Blues" that would actually want to engage in PvP with the implementation of this or that can just as easily cast a recall spell and engage in all of the PvP they wish....in Feluccia.

Please find a post where I call Trammel players for Care Bears. I do respect not all want to PvP and I respected it, when I was a PK back before Trammel, that's why I did not just attack but started with some RP to give them a chance to RP them out of it or just recall away.

Tell me why PvP'ers can't enjoy the game on all facets as long it not hurt the ones who don't want to PvP.

But you see...no one does...and so what you're really talking about here is trying to force the issue upon those who absolutely want nothing to do with PvP in any way shape or form. You're trying to add to the PvP player base so that you can continue to gank and troll to your heart's content.

Most Trammel players do not want to go Fel to PvP but they may very well choose to accept PvP from someone they see everyday and they know not want to ruin their game

Even an entire shard is a Feluccia ruleset and you're still not happy. Changing all of the others is not the answer. You have your utopia....why is that not enough for you?

Sweetheart you do not understand what it is I ask for and you just want to troll my thread. Drop that old hate and try to look at my idea with an open mind and tell me how this could hurt you

 

[FrejaSP]

I think you still will be flamed for this.
During the past 10 years there have been a number of great suggestions about PvP systems that would prevent griefing and would add more fun and adventure to candy land, but they have been neglected altogether. Most of the current players simply DO NOT WANT to fight. They want to collect items, build houses and farm monsters (but only if there are good item rewards). The game and its players have changed. To change it back you'd risk to lose most of the current players, many of which are most loyal customers with multiple accounts, and thus are players who represent the financial backbone of UO and the only reason UO is still alive. You can't take such a risk without having someone who will finance your vision. And even if you had - it would be easier to create a new game without having to drag along a broken economy and outdated graphics.

Sorry if I sound negative, but I've discussed this matter for more than a decade without any result. I admire you for your ideas and your heart!

My point is, I'm not trying to changes it back, I'm trying to merge the 2 worlds without losing any of them. The one who want to PvP will have to join one of the NPC PvP guilds and they can't fight the ones who choose not to join

 

[StoptheInsanity]

Never said was your reasoning was just pointing out grieving is all over UO not just PVP. Every PVPer is not a griever either, because some grief so its all their reasoning?

No idea what you're talking about. Here's what I said:

"It always turns into people who do not like PVP saying it only allows others to grief and that every facet should have the same thing, striking up the old power scroll complaint."

Clearly this is not implying everyone who doesn't pvp is saying this, but every who has said this didn't pvp.

Again, sorry you couldn't distinguish the two.

 

[cazador]

I think most fail to see..about 95% of pvpers have sampires/trammy character to farm with..glad you think trammel is robust with activity from strictly PvMers..stay true to your roots bro!

The whole game is a desolate dead zone..I'm not saying this will be the savior if UO..but Jesus something needs to be done..fluffy statues and bathtubs aren't bringing in new players..

Oh yea btw give me more pixels!!

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[StoptheInsanity]

I think most fail to see..about 95% of pvpers have sampires/trammy character to farm with..glad you think trammel is robust with activity from strictly PvMers..stay true to your roots bro!

The whole game is a desolate dead zone..I'm not saying this will be the savior if UO..but Jesus something needs to be done..fluffy statues and bathtubs aren't bringing in new players..

Oh yea btw give me more pixels!!

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I laughed at the fluffy statues and bathtubs comment. But as mentioned before, this is what the "majority" want. Kind of sad.

 

[FrejaSP]

I laughed at the fluffy statues and bathtubs comment. But as mentioned before, this is what the "majority" want. Kind of sad.

Is it what the "majority" want? I'm not so sure, nothing are black and white. PvP'ers do not only want to PvP, a lot of them do PvM too or craft. Same, because someone not like heavy PvP in Fel or the ruleset before Trammel was made, do not mean, they not want some PvP.
In Felucca and before Trammel, you can't turn PvP on and off depending of your mood. That will be possible in Trammel zone with my system.
Lets say, you see a lonely red outside your house. You may have heard him in gen chat or seen him fight with someone and res them after. You can keep PvP turned off and go out and see what he want. Maybe he just want to chat and his color do not really matter as he can't attack you.
On the other side, you may be up for some trouble and emty your back for stuff you don't need and turn PvP on and go out knowing you may die. It's your choice, not his. If you know what you risk to lose and know you can afford it, you may decide to risk to be attacked and even die.

Don't tell me, non of the trammel players would choose the last options. A lot are open for some PvP, just not for the grief and res killing they have heard so much about.

 

[StoptheInsanity]

Is it what the "majority" want? I'm not so sure, nothing are black and white. PvP'ers do not only want to PvP, a lot of them do PvM too or craft. Same, because someone not like heavy PvP in Fel or the ruleset before Trammel was made, do not mean, they not want some PvP.
In Felucca and before Trammel, you can't turn PvP on and off depending of your mood. That will be possible in Trammel zone with my system.
Lets say, you see a lonely red outside your house. You may have heard him in gen chat or seen him fight with someone and res them after. You can keep PvP turned off and go out and see what he want. Maybe he just want to chat and his color do not really matter as he can't attack you.
On the other side, you may be up for some trouble and emty your back for stuff you don't need and turn PvP on and go out knowing you may die. It's your choice, not his. If you know what you risk to lose and know you can afford it, you may decide to risk to be attacked and even die.

Don't tell me, non of the trammel players would choose the last options. A lot are open for some PvP, just not for the grief and res killing they have heard so much about.

It seems to be in my mind I guess. Otherwise, I think they would have geared this game more towards pvp than they have. Look at the faction revamps or the new pvp system they suggested and how far that got?

Though it seems those of us who do pvp shoot ourselves in the foot because we shoot a lot of things down before it's even released.

As far as casual pvp, I'm all for expanding on your idea, however it's pretty low risk with insurance these days and I would assume those who wanted to try pvp already would have done so. I know it's a little different on siege but it doesn't apply because aren't all facets there already a fel ruleset?

I'm not sure a toggle switch would change that, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Lady Michelle]

No idea what you're talking about. Here's what I said:

"It always turns into people who do not like PVP saying it only allows others to grief and that every facet should have the same thing, striking up the old power scroll complaint."

Clearly this is not implying everyone who doesn't pvp is saying this, but every who has said this didn't pvp.

Again, sorry you couldn't distinguish the two.

Yes I know what you said I know you were pointing out people who don't PVP saying allows the Pvpers to grief others. I pointed out grieving is all over UO regardless. I wasn't commenting on the faucets having the same thing or about the power scrolls.
I myself don't pvp I'm a trammy but I know better to sit here and just blame I person's play style on grieving. The player who is in the desk chair behind the UO character is the griever not the play style. See I know how to distinguish the to by not jumping on the blame train.

 

[Lady Michelle]

* trammies dream* Lets trammelize everything so I can go to felucca (except the champ spawns) and not be killed, and will add FrejaSP Idea in the game.

 

[FrejaSP]

As far as casual pvp, I'm all for expanding on your idea, however it's pretty low risk with insurance these days and I would assume those who wanted to try pvp already would have done so.

I don't think it's that easy for them. Going to Felucca to try out PvP do not feel fun as you don't know what will happen there and they have heard so many rumors about Felucca.
If my system was active, they would see PvP go on around them and learn more about PvP and the PvP players and it would start to look less scary.

I know it's a little different on siege but it doesn't apply because aren't all facets there already a fel ruleset?

Siege is more like old days, Fel ruleset on all facets and no item insurance. You risk to lose everything on your body. However it is not so bad as old days, as your home are safe now, you don't risk to lose your house key and your house now.
It is a little weird, because a lot on Siege do not PvP but they still choose Siege over normal shards.
Siege should not have this system as it is all Fel and should stay that way.

I'm not sure a toggle switch would change that, that's all I'm saying.

I can't prove it will but I believe it will.
I'm sure the reds would use it to go to Trammel facets. If no others join, they can at least fight other reds.
I'm sure the blue PvP'ers would join it too as it would give them a chance to find PvP when doing PvM
I'm sure some of the non PvP'ers be tempted to join, when they see a little actions going on.
I do know, a lot won't but they may still changes their views on PvP'ers as they will learn to know them.

 

[StoptheInsanity]

Yes I know what you said I know you were pointing out people who don't PVP saying allows the Pvpers to grief others. I pointed out grieving is all over UO regardless. I wasn't commenting on the faucets having the same thing or about the power scrolls.
I myself don't pvp I'm a trammy but I know better to sit here and just blame I person's play style on grieving. The player who is in the desk chair behind the UO character is the griever not the play style. See I know how to distinguish the to by not jumping on the blame train.

Does this mean you're agreeing? I'm pretty confused at what you're getting at. Maybe you took my response personally? I'm not sure..

Yes grieving can occur in all facets, but the original post was merely citing prior excuses from others not to include pvp in any other facet but felucca.

However, I do know you were once in factions so calling yourself a trammy isn't in it's entirety.

So uh, yea...I guess.

 

[StoptheInsanity]

I don't think it's that easy for them. Going to Felucca to try out PvP do not feel fun as you don't know what will happen there and they have heard so many rumors about Felucca.
If my system was active, they would see PvP go on around them and learn more about PvP and the PvP players and it would start to look less scary.


Siege is more like old days, Fel ruleset on all facets and no item insurance. You risk to lose everything on your body. However it is not so bad as old days, as your home are safe now, you don't risk to lose your house key and your house now.
It is a little weird, because a lot on Siege do not PvP but they still choose Siege over normal shards.
Siege should not have this system as it is all Fel and should stay that way.


I can't prove it will but I believe it will.
I'm sure the reds would use it to go to Trammel facets. If no others join, they can at least fight other reds.
I'm sure the blue PvP'ers would join it too as it would give them a chance to find PvP when doing PvM
I'm sure some of the non PvP'ers be tempted to join, when they see a little actions going on.
I do know, a lot won't but they may still changes their views on PvP'ers as they will learn to know them.

It would certainly benefit to see it all around I think as long as it didn't affect them. But refutal #18128934 is "they can make another character that is blue to come to trammel".

But sign me up, I'm all for it.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Does this mean you're agreeing? I'm pretty confused at what you're getting at. Maybe you took my response personally? I'm not sure..

Yes grieving can occur in all facets, but the original post was merely citing prior excuses from others not to include pvp in any other facet but felucca.

However, I do know you were once in factions so calling yourself a trammy isn't in it's entirety.

So uh, yea...I guess.

Never take anything personal on the game or the forums sorry didn't mean to let you maybe think that.
LOL ya I'm in factions, not for the PVP for the base guarding healing putting down fields., or whatever. I call myself a trammy and will call myself a trammy til I go up to someone in felucca and attack them. because I'm in factions, or run around felucca does not make me a Feluccy. LOL maybe I'm a tramlucca, or a felammy.
oh and I never said I agree or disagree with you will leave it at your not getting your point across and neither am I.
felucca red players want in trammel no problem with me I welcome it so long as I'm not killed by them

 

[cazador]

Ya no reds in tram please! They will grief me...because Messana put in special trammy code..you are UNABLE to grief on a blue..AND if you have a red and you grief people. Your not able to make a blue, it's special and only I know how it works...carry on!


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[StoptheInsanity]

Ya no reds in tram please! They will grief me...because Messana put in special trammy code..you are UNABLE to grief on a blue..AND if you have a red and you grief people. Your not able to make a blue, it's special and only I know how it works...carry on!


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That's pretty close man. You forgot the, "you can have reds in trammel if we can have 120 power scrolls." and "no, because we're the majority and we should get what we pay for." or my favorite, "felucca is a failed business model."

 

[cazador]

That's a valid argument..let red into trammel where they have absolutely zero impact on absolutely anything going on other then making the game look semi more populated, or giving themselves an opportunity for someone to flag on them..and you get a 24/7 farm fest and drop the POWERSCROLL market to an even further decline..congrats on your logic friend


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[Lady Michelle]

Ya no reds in tram please! They will grief me...because Messana put in special trammy code..you are UNABLE to grief on a blue..AND if you have a red and you grief people. Your not able to make a blue, it's special and only I know how it works...carry on!


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Well don't think of them as reds think of them as a very very very very dark pink.

 

[FrejaSP]

It would certainly benefit to see it all around I think as long as it didn't affect them. But refutal #18128934 is "they can make another character that is blue to come to trammel".

But sign me up, I'm all for it.

Yes they can make a blue and go to Trammel and most do I think. But that blue can't take his playstyle with him to Trammel. I have tryed to play normal shards, when Siege is down or noone are on but Trammel is way to safe for me and Felucca is only old Britainnia, not the other facets, where I also love to go.
I believe alot like to RP and it would allow a red to stay in char, even when most would be safe for him.
Thanks for supporting it

 

[MalagAste]

Trammel has always had PvP...... it's just that a vast majority don't participate or want it a free for all like Fel. But if you talk with any RP group most of the do RPPvP... or PvP with purpose and more often than not has STRICT no looting rules. Some say you can carry a specific color bag to put "lootables" in but in my experience this is not a good idea. Bodies of other players are and should be strictly OFF LIMITS. Keeping it this way allows for all of the fun of PvP..... and a whole heck of a lot less of the drama... Sure there is still some drama but it's usually at a minimum. I guess I prefer PvP with a reason... something to make it more fun. Defending the Kingdom... Killing those "good" guys. Stopping the good guys from delivering goods to whereever they are headed.... being a pirate... etc. If I wanted to kill just to kill ....... that's what fel is for.

Most RP groups have rules though. But most of them do PvP. Some are more restrictive than others saying you can only wear this or that ...... no artifacts etc.. but others don't care what you wear so long as you can RP a reason for having something.

The reason you just don't see much of that going on is because many RP communities like the rest of the shards are dwindling..... as well they got tired of being ridiculed and often do things in the background in their own communities.... and such. But mostly the less players in the game...... the fewer RPers in the game. Or many people left a lot of RP communities either because they burned all their bridges so to speak.... or other various reasons.

 

[Dimitroff]

What will be my incentive to opt for PvP in Tram, other than having fun and occasionally loot some bandages or a clueless and defenceless newbie?

Right now I go to Fel and risk my life and the PSes I get from the champ.

So far I have been killed and looted multiple times by reds, I even tried to fight back, chatted with the guys who killed me and I even made steps to create a PvP gear and go fight them more.

I regularly hunt treasure maps in Fel, as they drop better loot. I accept the risk of being killed and looted of all my t-map loot on the spot and that is what thrills me.

So... Fel works as intended, right?
Why would it has to be merged with Tram again? To merge the communities? Will the champs in Tram start to drop PS, if I am in one of the proposed guilds and I am flagged as attackable, for example?

Why would anyone leave town, so somebody can steal from him?

The only case I can think of is if you are a clueless newbie.

Imagine how would you feel, if you just logged into this new world and somebody steals your 1000 gold, because you wanted to see what's there beyond the fence.


Will there be Guardians to protect me from griefers, while I do new players quests?

I don't think that a warning "don't leave the town, you might get robbed!!!" in the tutorial will be a good publicity for the game...


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[cazador]

What will be my incentive to opt for PvP in Tram, other than having fun and occasionally loot some bandages or a clueless and defenceless newbie?

Right now I go to Fel and risk my life and the PSes I get from the champ.

So far I have been killed and looted multiple times by reds, I even tried to fight back, chatted with the guys who killed me and I even made steps to create a PvP gear and go fight them more.

I regularly hunt treasure maps in Fel, as they drop better loot. I accept the risk of being killed and looted of all my t-map loot on the spot and that is what thrills me.

So... Fel works as intended, right?
Why would it has to be merged with Tram again? To merge the communities? Will the champs in Tram start to drop PS, if I am in one of the proposed guilds and I am flagged as attackable, for example?

Why would anyone leave town, so somebody can steal from him?

The only case I can think of is if you are a clueless newbie.

Imagine how would you feel, if you just logged into this new world and somebody steals your 1000 gold, because you wanted to see what's there beyond the fence.


Will there be Guardians to protect me from griefers, while I do new players quests?

I don't think that a warning "don't leave the town, you might get robbed!!!" in the tutorial will be a good publicity for the game...


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Can't loot young players...there would have to be incentives added to prompt someone to opt in..events,rp,certain risky areas

One of the better times I've had in game was at a paxlair event..it wasn't till after the fact that we even realized we were involved in RP..we were doing what we do and killing blues..and I mean they had 20-25 people there and consistently came out and fought, we even had a guy in our group fighting with them to try and even the odds..a bit of dry looting went on but soon after we asked the guys in vent to stop and and just fight..I even gave back dropped armor for an extremely nominal fee of like couple hundred k..which I refused but he insisted..it added to the fun..good times. Unfortunetly events like this are few and far between because of the split..


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[Uriah Heep]

I guess I will never understand all the confusion and discussion on PvP. While not a PvP'er by any stretch, I have had and still have friends who are, hardcore and part-time. Always thought the simple thing would be to make reds stay in Fel, and if they or anyone else with a blue wanted to PvP anywhere in the lands, remake order/chaos, and let it be where when you see an opponent, you can have him if you can...regardless of facet. You're joining either order or chaos is you consent to wide open pvp. I know a lot of people will be against that, but seriously, will it really effect our banksitting if someone is fighting as long as you are safe?

Seems it should scratch everyone's itch.

 

[FrejaSP]

The problem is, wide open pvp easy become ganking with zero roleplay. The good old red vs blue system works a lot better together with RP. I really don't see why reds only can stay in Felucca. Let them go to Trammel facets as long they can't attack players who do not agree to the risk.

 

[Great DC]

*holds up sign* "PVP or Quit". Thats my motto. How can people mindlessly farm the same stuff over and over and over again. Are they on medication or something?

 

[StoptheInsanity]

*holds up sign* "PVP or Quit". Thats my motto. How can people mindlessly farm the same stuff over and over and over again. Are they on medication or something?

Your logic is invalid. DC does not pvp.

 

[StoptheInsanity]

That's a valid argument..let red into trammel where they have absolutely zero impact on absolutely anything going on other then making the game look semi more populated, or giving themselves an opportunity for someone to flag on them..and you get a 24/7 farm fest and drop the POWERSCROLL market to an even further decline..congrats on your logic friend


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I'm not sure what you're getting at or maybe you don't understand sarcasm?

 

[cazador]

I'm not sure what you're getting at or maybe you don't understand sarcasm?

Rebuttal sarcasm with sarcasm..must I explain everything on these forums?


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[StoptheInsanity]

Rebuttal sarcasm with sarcasm..must I explain everything on these forums?


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What exactly were you giving a rebuttal to? I don't believe I was refuting anything? But perhaps your post wasn't directed at mine...

 

[Dimitroff]

Freya, "some events and incentives have to be created" will not gonna fly

Thoughts and ideas we all have. In millions. And each of us thinks idea is cool and will benefit the game greatly.

But in order for the idea to become reality, it has to have a structure, logic and common sense.

What you are proposing is an entirely new module for the game.

When you do that, you write it down entirely, like a presentation:

1. What is his purpose.
2. Who will it benefit.
3. Who will it not benefit.
4. All of the rules of the module.
5. Pros and cons.
6. Practical examples.
7. Research and references - is there such module in other games and are they successful?
8. How will it be coded?
9. What resources does it need and what will be the estimated time it will take.
10. Will it bring money to the company? How? (Very important!!!)

Then you make a power point presentation with cool and funny pictures to support your idea and send it to Broadsword. If they don't answer, send it again.

Rinse and repeat.

At least that's how the studio I'm working in, works. We are encouraged to give ideas for new modules in our games, but we have to write documentation, book appointment and meeting and make presentation to bosses.

99% of our "cool" ideas are destroyed by logic and common sense.


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[FrejaSP]

I'm not that organized or structured. I'm sure Broadsword do read this thread.

Sure I could go through this questions, but it's not really my way to do it

1. What is his purpose.
- To bring back some of the spirit of UO before Trammel, without remove the advance of Trammel
2. Who will it benefit.
- I would say all, who play the game as it will help building the community and make both PvP'er and non PvP'er feel they are playing the same game and all add to the feeling of building a world where all depend of each others and need each others.
3. Who will it not benefit.
- You may not believe the Trammel players will benefit of this system but I believe they will as you will see a lot more roleplay, also without PvP.
4. All of the rules of the module.
- I did give ideas to the basis rules. The thread was mainly made to see if there was any support for it. They are in my first post. Sure they need more work, think that is Devs work
5. Pros and cons.
- This are hard, for what is pros for some may be cons for others. A thread like this could help making that list, as reading the replys could give an idea
6. Practical examples.
- I have given some in my reply
7. Research and references - is there such module in other games and are they successful?
- This is UO, not an other game. What I try to add is a well known UO system merged with the Trammel code so we keep the safeness of Trammel for the ones who like it and allow the ones who like the world more dangerous to enjoy a little more risk.
8. How will it be coded?
- Again that is the Devs job. Even when I know about programming, I do have access to see the way UO is coded and how to add this. Some of the code is already there.
9. What resources does it need and what will be the estimated time it will take.
- I can't know, as I don't know how complex UO's code is. A 16 years old game, with a lot programmers over the years won't make it easier as many programmers hate to do documentations or forget it when to little time.
10. Will it bring money to the company? How? (Very important!!!)
- That I believe it will, as it will support the community and a strong community that need you, make you stay and play more. But we need the global loot fix to make it work and a little more overland's spawn, giving something to kill for young and weak chars and more gathering for crafters. We need to see more out lumbering, mining, killing stuff for leather and imbuing resources.

You say rinse and repeat, I believe, it's important to get support from the players. Will the Trammel players like this idea, will they feel it add something to their game?

About logic and common sense, I have played this game for 16 years, I have seen what do work and what do not work. I know what players tells me they miss with UO, when they comes back.

 

[Fingers]

"About logic and common sense, I have played this game for 16 years, I have seen what do work and what do not work. I know what players tells me they miss with UO, when they comes back."

Never asked me, nor have I ever told you how I feel. Here goes....Been a UO'r since and in beta, and you may feel that you have seen what works, and what doesn't but its simply your opinion, and that does not make it fact. It seems fairly simple to me....NO reds in Tramms, they have "their" land, Blues in Tramms, we have our land, crossover possible if you so desire and dont mind someone else dictating your playstyle. My "opinion" seems to be more so "fact" than yours, simply due to the devs decision, which works, btw. I have faith they will never force me to play in Redville ever again, or my choice will be to cancel my account. Certainly you must feel that there are well over half of the players left in UO that play in Tramms, ONLY, and do you want them to risk all of us closing accounts? What happens to UO then, ya figure?
I do seem to recall you loudly and chest poundingly proclaiming Fel to be the "cure" when it was announced. Telling anyone who seemed not in favor of it to stay in care bear land, reds will have their own shard. I see now your on siege, and that sig says it all.
Whilst I do enjoy your opinion, and of course your free to preach it as long as they let ya, it is, I hope, beating a dead horse!
That is simply my opinion.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Well, allowing reds in trammel wont affect your gameplay, if they cannot attack you. And to be honest, not all reds are bad guys. Not all reds talk in general chat about your momma, etc etc. I knew a lot of reds who were red from killing blues who really really needed killing, needed killing much more than any red.

But I go back to my previous statement, reds in Trammel, order/chaos in Trammel, if they cant attack you, then what does it matter?

Fact is I've done quite a few t maps in Fel lately, only saw one red all the times there, he just looked and left...

 

[FrejaSP]

"About logic and common sense, I have played this game for 16 years, I have seen what do work and what do not work. I know what players tells me they miss with UO, when they comes back."

Never asked me, nor have I ever told you how I feel.

I am asking with this thread, I'm asking for opinions, also yours and I also said "I believe, it's important to get support from the players. Will the Trammel players like this idea, will they feel it add something to their game?"
As I'm not playing Trammel, not Felucca as non of this places feel as home for me, it's hard for me to know how normal shards players feel about this idea.

Here goes....Been a UO'r since and in beta, and you may feel that you have seen what works, and what doesn't but its simply your opinion, and that does not make it fact. It seems fairly simple to me....NO reds in Tramms, they have "their" land, Blues in Tramms, we have our land, crossover possible if you so desire and dont mind someone else dictating your playstyle.

1. Your land and reds land? All play for all facets. Really tell me, what diff would it be for you, to have a red in Trammel, who can't attack you or the reds second char, that is blue and can't attack you? I only see the color as diff, the player are the same.
2. Dictating my playstyle? What are my playstyle? I'm not sure what you do mean

My "opinion" seems to be more so "fact" than yours, simply due to the devs decision, which works, btw. I have faith they will never force me to play in Redville ever again, or my choice will be to cancel my account. Certainly you must feel that there are well over half of the players left in UO that play in Tramms, ONLY, and do you want them to risk all of us closing accounts? What happens to UO then, ya figure?

How do you know, how many of the blue around you, who do have red chars too? My system is not in any way allowing reds to hurt you unless you agree and join the system, just like your guild do have to make war to PvP with an other guild in Trammel.
Don't tell me all in Trammel are total against PvP. You are, fair enough, but please tell me how this system would force you to changes your playstyle?

I do seem to recall you loudly and chest poundingly proclaiming Fel to be the "cure" when it was announced. Telling anyone who seemed not in favor of it to stay in care bear land, reds will have their own shard. I see now your on siege, and that sig says it all.

I never agreed to the split, but I did agree, that all have right to choose if they want to PvP or not. Yes, I'm on Siege, I have one char who can PvP, the rest are crafters or PvM'ers, who never try to PvP, if attacked, they will die. With my system, I would play on my old shard Atlantic too.

Whilst I do enjoy your opinion, and of course your free to preach it as long as they let ya, it is, I hope, beating a dead horse!
That is simply my opinion.

When I wanted to get rid of Stat Loss for reds, I was told 100 times, I was beating a dead horse. Where are stat loss for reds now? I do not beat dead horses, I res them
Thanks for your opinion. Please drop that hate, I know it was hard for some back in 1997-98 but the game had changed a lot since then, we have secure houses, item insurance, bounded horses, blessed runebooks and so on, it will never be like back in 1997-98. Try to look at it without the hate and tell me how this system would effect you and in what way it would ruin your game.

 

[BeaIank]

I am all for letting reds intro trammel ruleset lands. They wouldn't be able to attack me there anyway.
And I'd be pretty fine with a PvP toggle that would allow people who want to PvP at trammel ruleset. Fel would remain just as it is.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Fel is not working the way it is now maybe PVP toggle should be put in for all faucets, except in the Fel champ spawn area. You don't want to PVP in fel you opt out, which means you also opt out of double resources, and doing champ spawns. You decide you want double resources, and to do champ spawns you just opt back in. Opting out if fel makes it trammel for you.
Also if blues are able to freely run in fel be save they will be able watch other players PVP some might give it a go.
also you if you opt out there as to be a period of time that goes by before your able opt back in.Same the other way to. Like oh there's a red I'm gonna opt out red leave opt back it. Champ spawn areas that will be disabled so no one will be able to opt out doing them.
Siege and Mug will stay the same no changes.

 

[Widow Maker]

It's a moot discussion, really. The true need is something that the Devs have not.. or are unwilling.. to do. A simple PvP toggle resolves any and all of those issues.

 

[FrejaSP]

Fel is not working the way it is now maybe PVP toggle should be put in for all faucets, except in the Fel champ spawn area. You don't want to PVP in fel you opt out, which means you also opt out of double resources, and doing champ spawns. You decide you want double resources, and to do champ spawns you just opt back in. Opting out if fel makes it trammel for you.
Also if blues are able to freely run in fel be save they will be able watch other players PVP some might give it a go.
also you if you opt out there as to be a period of time that goes by before your able opt back in.Same the other way to. Like oh there's a red I'm gonna opt out red leave opt back it. Champ spawn areas that will be disabled so no one will be able to opt out doing them.
Siege and Mug will stay the same no changes.

I agree with this, but I believe it should count for champ area too, but if you turn PvP off, that be my system or VvV, you will only have 50% chance for scroll drop, just like with double resources
I never found it fair to force non PvP players to choose between PvP or have to buy 120 scrolls from PvP players. Double resources make more sense as the PvP'er may only success getting half of them home. People should choose PvP because they like it, carrots are not the way to go.

 

[Lady Michelle]

I agree with this, but I believe it should count for champ area too, but if you turn PvP off, that be my system or VvV, you will only have 50% chance for scroll drop, just like with double resources
I never found it fair to force non PvP players to choose between PvP or have to buy 120 scrolls from PvP players. Double resources make more sense as the PvP'er may only success getting half of them home.

being a non pvper I didn't want to come here and put champ spawns on the list for non pvpers to do. I kinda feel I would be pressing my luck on that.

 

[Widow Maker]

As an only PvP player (former).. I would.. and most every Fel person would.. scream bloody murder if they tried to lessen the risk for powerscrolls in the slightest amount. Wise to leave that one alone.

 

[FrejaSP]

That's why I did not add it as a part of my system, but I still find, it's wrong. It do not make sense, that non PvP'ers can get this scrolls without doing PvP or buy them from PvP'ers. Maybe at least make a little chance to get them from Trammel spawns, even 10 % chance would be better than now and you did still have your carrot to draw victims to Felucca

 

[BeaIank]

That could be solved by making the trammel spawns drop between 1 and 3 105 and maybe a rare 110 scroll.
It would be possible through to use of scroll binders to make 115 and 120 ones, but it would take a bloody long time to do it.

And guess what, this would be beneficial for young players. They'd be able to use those to hone their skills and go past the 100 skill cap without having to shell out huge amounts of gold they don't have.
With a 110 cap, they can farm more dangerous stuff to amass the gold needed for a 120.

 

[Darius Bloodbain]

Freja, Its good to see that you are still playing UO and you are still enjoying the game playing on Seige.
I have been Playing Lake Austin for the past 5 years. I went there for a fresh start. I took like a 2 year sabattical from the
game between 2006 and 2008. Most of the people I knew and played with on atlantic had either moved on or was taking
a break from the game upon my return, so I found myself doing things pretty much alone. I tried a few times to hang out with some of
the folks that are remnants of the old guild on atlantic, but it seemed like i just didnt fit in anymore.
But doing well where I am at. Have met some good people on that shard and enjoy playing there. The population is smaller,
so I got that big house I always wanted that always eluded me on atlantic. heh.
But enough about what I been up to, and on to the subject of your thread. I think you have some good ideas,
I dont participate in PVP unless I am attacked, just like I always have been. I do still like the RP aspect of it like I did
in past years. I do think PVP and RP is an important part of UO. I remember one time meeting up with a guy that was
role playing as an orc, and he had the dialog down so well that i was laughing so hard when he attacked me i forgot
to fight back. I did get my fill tho of the naked guys around the bank. I tryed to actually stay and play in fel with my
Blacksmith and do repairs and make GM weapons and armer for the populus of fel at the time as a service since
so many crafters had migrated to the other facetts, but alas, the naked guys would come up and steal my spare
hammers and ingots not cause they were worth anything, but just to be annoying and disrupt the service and help
I was trying to provide to the player base at the time. So the on off switch would have been really nice back then.

 

[Lady Michelle]

That could be solved by making the trammel spawns drop between 1 and 3 105 and maybe a rare 110 scroll.
It would be possible through to use of scroll binders to make 115 and 120 ones, but it would take a bloody long time to do it.

And guess what, this would be beneficial for young players. They'd be able to use those to hone their skills and go past the 100 skill cap without having to shell out huge amounts of gold they don't have.
With a 110 cap, they can farm more dangerous stuff to amass the gold needed for a 120.

Not sure if the Devs or who ever is still around who said power scrolls will stay in Felucca. I really do not want Mesanna or the Devs to break the words of old Devs who said this. I feel alot of players would lose respect for them. I would rather go with if you opt out of pvp you still be able to do champs in felucca with constrictions be like doing trammel champs but only a slim slim chance of getting a + 5.

 

[Widow Maker]

Any type of those scrolls, In Trammel, would lead to farming such as this game has ever seen. You know how the robust players on the Trammel side of the gate can be.. when it comes to farming. They have always put the Fel side of the gate to shame.. pitiful, terrible, no competition shame. Heh.. I used to multibox 6 accounts together with conjoined macros and I still could not keep up with a decent Tram team, when it comes to clearing out spawns. It was impressive to watch, actually.

When I last played, it was bad enough in Fel (as it pertains to farming), but it was paid for with risk. I have always been a strong proponent of that ageless and correct concept. Knowing how the more peaceful people can be "can be" at times.. again as it pertains to farming... I don't know if that would be a very good idea for the game itself. It brings so much baggage and expense with it, if you know what I mean. I am not sure if that is the Dev's or powers that be opinion as well, but it would certainly sway my vote.

Back to the gold discussion, Jade brought up a VERY valid concern about same named characters on different shards.. and then when you shard xfer one of the characters. I doubt she remembers me, but I remember her from my Sonoma days. She is a pretty sharp cookie, even if we generally played on opposite sides of the gate.

Coding wise, given the current state of the source code for this game.. eh.. I would highly recommend a heaping helping of caution with a rollback option ready to go and someone who is ready to use it. I know I had problems, and not small ones, when I used to do that very same name character scenario xfer as the system currently stands. Her concern is quite valid.

This game has withstood so many obstacles in it's past... and it has taken a toll on her, to be honest. But, she is still kicking and making money. A mess up on people's in-game money could very well be an unrecoverable error. The one cardinal rule for all types of games; Don't mess with my money. You can do a lot of other stuff but mess with my game money.. we're done.

To the Devs: Just be careful. These folks have a good part of their lifetime entwined with this game. Take good care of them. I know you are a sharp group of folks.. I do not think you are not.. but... Don't mess this one up.

Cardinal rule. No exceptions. Not when it comes to this. Don't forget.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

It seems fairly simple to me....NO reds in Tramms, they have "their" land, Blues in Tramms, we have our land, crossover possible if you so desire and dont mind someone else dictating your playstyle. My "opinion" seems to be more so "fact" than yours, simply due to the devs decision, which works, btw. I have faith they will never force me to play in Redville ever again, or my choice will be to cancel my account. Certainly you must feel that there are well over half of the players left in UO that play in Tramms, ONLY, and do you want them to risk all of us closing accounts? What happens to UO then, ya figure?

Cynically, I must agree with your statement. Changing the status quo might kill the game.
However, that's not because a change would be a bad idea, but because it doesn't match to the active player base anymore.

You basically say Trammel and Felucca are a good idea. With this I do not fully agree. Splitting the world in order to allow both playing styles actually is the worst idea ever. It splits the community and prevents interaction between "good" and "evil". But this interaction is exactly what makes a game successful, what creates communities, what leads to many emotions.

The problem was that this interaction resulted in mass-murdering and dry-looting helpless adventurers. Back then, many players quit UO because of this problem. This only happened because the rules of interaction between Red and Blue were lousy and did not work at all. But instead of splitting the world, the rules should have been optimized, that's where I agree with @FrejaSP . But following this idea might be like beating a dead horse, as you so accurately put it.

 

[Surgeries]

I see people wanting to recreate the "Glory Days" of UO. Every Red in UO, every single one, knows/knew exactly what the repercussions for "Murdering" another would be. Glory Days are far far behind us now. HINT: UO was the FIRST real MMO to make it to market. The ideas that started the game were not scalable (i.e. no safe place (even towns weren't completely safe, at all)), and damn nearly destroyed it. This has been absolutely proven over time. Put ALL MMOs with NO open PvP, that are POPULAR on one side of a scale, and then put ALL of the Open PvP games (like Fel in UO) on the other side. See which side goes down, and you will have your answer. Because YOU liked open PvP...loved it even, has a very small impact on what the public wants to buy. This is proven over a decade and a half. This logic still stands today. Games like ESO will soar because of the way they separated PvP from PvE...excellently done, in my opinion. UO says that a Red can dry loot a person that doesn't insure their items...yeah...that is BOUND to attract a ton of players. Who DOESN'T want the "excitement" of losing valuable items...gee whiz!!

I say...let Reds in Trammel so they can farm Tram resources on their most powerful Red characters, only able to fight IF attacked. Make it so Blues can go to Fel and they are attackable ONLY if they attack other players, and make it so Blues can harvest the resources of Fel with no risk of being attacked, if they don't want it.

Oh but wait...the Reds will say "No friggin way!! You know the risk when you come to Fel!!". But wait...those same Reds, that "knew the risk" for their moments of murderous mayhem, now want to be able to come to Tram, and harvest those resources on characters designed to destroy other players (and have at least five times or something) praying to God that some noob Blue in Trammel could attack them. And this way, even if the Reds don't get attacked, they won't have to suffer creating another character to farm with that they can't really PvP with...saving them time and trouble!

Cake, and eat it too? I think so.

 

[FrejaSP]

Hello Surgeries, welcome back. I can't say, I have missed your reply as we will never agree or even understand each other

 

[drcossack]

Well, allowing reds in trammel wont affect your gameplay, if they cannot attack you. And to be honest, not all reds are bad guys. Not all reds talk in general chat about your momma, etc etc. I knew a lot of reds who were red from killing blues who really really needed killing, needed killing much more than any red.

But I go back to my previous statement, reds in Trammel, order/chaos in Trammel, if they cant attack you, then what does it matter?

Agreed. I went red a decade ago because I wanted the risk that was associated with being attacked by anyone. I did so willingly. Now? Fel on my home shard (Lake Superior) is dead. If I had the choice to do it all over again, I wouldn't. I simply don't have the desire to fight all the time, and my timing is nowhere near what it used to be (out of practice & I'm older - my reflexes aren't as good as they were when I was 18-19)

Even my personality has changed. I was a HUGE ass back then, though I was never the "Your momma" type. While I still am (sometimes), I've grown up a lot too. If this can get players back in the game, I'm all for it. Looking back, I realize that fighting wasn't the main reason for me to return to this game as often as I have. It was the people, and a bit of nostalgia.

If Reds can go to Trammel (with restrictions), they should. One of the best parts of UO, IMO, is that players have the freedom to go where they wish & do what they want. There have been times where my Red would have been better suited for PvM, due to the skillset present on it (Magic Resist) + not having the control slot "restriction" of my tamer (EV's are much better for killing large crowds, after all.) Admittedly, that was before Soulstones.

 

[Fingers]

If Reds can go to Trammel (with restrictions), they should.

So, where does blues going to fel fall, IYO? Shouldnt I be able to blue my way to a champ spawn without red interference? Surely you believe in parity, no? BTW, your red can already go to tramms, with soulstones, a new toon, and a few powerscrolls. Blue FTW !!!

 

[Spiritless]

The only thing wrong with the Tram/Fel split is that they were mirror copies of each other. If Fel was a separate place with separate reasons to go there, then it may have worked out better.

Anyway, if the goal is to merge Fel -> Tram then the simplest way would be to have togglable PvP flags for each character. You choose to be PvP flagged or not. If you're not, you can't attack other players or be attacked. If you are, then it's effectively Fel rules for you. That's a lot simpler than what is proposed and, tbh, all that was really needed. Instead they copy/pasted an entire facet.