NEWS [UO.Com] Updated Publish 81 on TC1

[chise2]

After examination of the 1H and 2H weapon speeds versus their min, max, and calculated average damages, the following weapons did not follow suit with the rest:

• Gargish Lance & Lance, Base damage 18-22 / Weapon Speed 4.25 seconds

The damage jumped up higher than I expected versus other 1H weapons (expected base damage 17-21). Lances are unique, in that their dismount only works only against other lance wielding opponents, yet they are the only Fencing weapon with Concussion (UBWS allows access to more practical choices than a lance for this special). I will not lose sleep over this, regardless if it gets changed or not. I made pretty charts, but I will spare all of you this time.


Aside from the above, 2H weapons have a consistently higher damage than their equivalent speed, 1H counterparts.



All in all there are only eight weapons (of the 90+ available) which are changing one special move each. There are no modifications to both of the special moves for any weapon. Most of the changes make the weapon either offensive or defensive focused, where before it was a little of both. Many people were relieved to see the Leafblade and Daisho remain unchanged (from their current specials.


The majority of the special moves will see a decrease in the mana cost to perform them. The few increases are primarily to Archery Only special moves. This will go a long way in relieving the mana burden of the warrior.


Several special moves are getting buffed, to be more comparable to the effectiveness of Armor Ignore. This will increase the diversity of the weapons and battlefield tactics currently being used. Though I have not been able to test all of these changes in great detail, I like what I see.



I am glad to see a stamina protection component to my choice of armor now. It adds flavor to the non-meddable armors, so they are now different than leather (rather than inferior). It will allow warriors to maintain a higher stamina through a fight, thus resulting in a consistently higher swing speed and damage output. Current stamina loss is being used as the baseline to scale the protection upwards, so this change is purely beneficial for those who want to use “heavier” armors (metal, dragonscale).



Coupled with the stamina protection is the bonus LMC provided by non-medable armors. This bonus can go beyond the LMC cap of 40%. This will also help ease the mana burden of a warrior. The “lighter” non-medable armors have a higher LMC bonus than their metal counterparts, which lets them standout. The choice in armor will center on tactical options:

1. Increased Mana Recovery, through meditation (allowed by leather, leaf, cloth).
2. Reduced Stamina Loss (metal, dragonscale).
3. Reduced Mana Cost (studded, bone, hide, stone)

Mage Armor negates both the Stamina Protection (SP) and LMC Bonus of the armor piece in the current publish. Many have called this drawback too severe, since it Mage Armor is a significant property to imbue on armor (140/500 total intensity). There are primarily two proposed alternatives: 1) full allotment of the SP and LMC; or 2) Reduced SP and LMC Bonus.

1. Full Allotment. You can’t eat you cake and have it too. Combining the “best of both worlds” often lead to great imbalances in MMOs. There needs to be a meaningful trade-off to being able to meditate and have some SP and LMC Bonus. With the loot generator in the revamped dungeons, it is easy to obtain a Mage Armor piece much better than what can be imbued, with little-to-no negative modifiers. Crafting exceptional SE platemail with a high end runic, provides the Mage Armor property for free, while still receiving the 4-5 properties from the runic.
2. Reduced. This is a more tempered approach than #1, but requires some refinement. The approach is to make Mage armor act as the “next lower” armor type (e.g. Metal > Studded; Studded > Leather). Refinement is needed because a Studded Mage Armor piece would have no SP or LMC Bonus, which is how it is on the current publish (not the intent of the idea). This idea has room to grow.

A lot of effort has gone into play testing the in and outs of the crafting component of the armor refinements (Thank You). There are a lot of places to get the components, which is great. Everyone gets a slice of the pie. Unfortunately, from what I gather reading their findings, there are too many pieces to the puzzle. The number of components is overwhelming and will scare off many players from using it.

The core concept is good is a sound trade: either more damage, less often (lower resists, higher DCI) or less damage, more often (higher resists, less DCI). I am glad to see the team receptive to the suggestions of the players. I am looking forward to their revision/streamline of the refinements system. Hopefully this opens the door for future refinements (e.g. SDI-v-LRC, HCI-v-DI, SSI-v-DI, etc…).



My thoughts on the following changes:

• Gargoyle HCI Cap. All races should have all of the same caps, different benefits, but the same caps.
• HLD. The core change (percentile versus flat decrease) is a great change to make this a very effective property. However, there are issues with how Overcapping DCI is used which make this property and the Armor Refinements ineffective. The team has responded to these issues: http://stratics.com/community/threads/uo-com-updated-publish-81-on-tc1.295468/. I am looking forward to their changes.
• Animal Form. It makes sense that it can be interrupted. I can be interrupted trying to re-mount an Ethy or cast a spell. Even though is not effected by FC, will Casting Focus have an effect?
• Throwing. Even though I’m going to have to re-learn the sweet spots, if it balances out the skill I am all for it.
• Greater Refresh Potions. This change does not really affect me. I do not wait for my stamina to be in the toilet before I drink a potion. With the removal of the timer, it might mean carrying a few more potions. I would like to see push-through actually use stamina, rather than require you to be at full stamina.
• Hit Stamina Leech. I am concerned with what I read on this one (I have not had the chance to test it much). Does it behave similar to Hit Life leech and Hit Mana Leech (see here: http://uo2.stratics.com/items/magic-item-properties)? I would very much like all three of the leech effects to behave the same (different magnitudes, but the same manner). I understand a need to change stamina leech, so it compliments the new Stamina Protection (SP) rather than eclipse it.
• Divine Fury. Similar to the HSL, it needs to be complimentary.
• Balanced 2H Weapons. The “no parry” penalty is too severe. There still needs to be a trade-off for balanced on 2H weapons, but as it stands with this penalty, characters with Parry or Bushido are better off using a 1H weapon to drink potions (which is no different than it is currently, see here: http://stratics.com/community/threads/uo-com-updated-publish-81-notes.294228/page-3#post-2235428). The trade-off needs to be more tempered; there is work to be done here.
• Imbuing Cap Increase for 2H Weapons and Bows. Good, solid change.

Summary
There are a lot of good changes coming with this publish. There are a couple key issues and some tweaks that need work still, but all-in-all this is a good publish. I will probably hold off on testing this publish out further, I think I have taken this round as far as I can go. I can’t wait to see what “Round 3” of this publish brings.

Stayin Alive,

BG

and I learned there is a format eraser

Hmm you have a point about the new loot system and mage armor. Some really good stuff does drop far better then what you can get from imbuing. I agree that while they it should allow you get some of the benefit of nonmed armor it should not be the full benefit. Its just a matter of figuring out what works and is fair. I like the basic idea you had there but like you said it needs refinement because it means studded etc would be no different then regular leather now.

I really like your refinement ideas specifically SDI/LRC and SSI/DI.

Anyway real good post!

 

[KLOMP]

Mage Armor negates both the Stamina Protection (SP) and LMC Bonus of the armor piece in the current publish. Many have called this drawback too severe, since it Mage Armor is a significant property to imbue on armor (140/500 total intensity). There are primarily two proposed alternatives: 1) full allotment of the SP and LMC; or 2) Reduced SP and LMC Bonus.

1. Full Allotment. You can’t eat you cake and have it too. Combining the “best of both worlds” often lead to great imbalances in MMOs. There needs to be a meaningful trade-off to being able to meditate and have some SP and LMC Bonus. With the loot generator in the revamped dungeons, it is easy to obtain a Mage Armor piece much better than what can be imbued, with little-to-no negative modifiers. Crafting exceptional SE platemail with a high end runic, provides the Mage Armor property for free, while still receiving the 4-5 properties from the runic.
2. Reduced. This is a more tempered approach than #1, but requires some refinement. The approach is to make Mage armor act as the “next lower” armor type (e.g. Metal > Studded; Studded > Leather). Refinement is needed because a Studded Mage Armor piece would have no SP or LMC Bonus, which is how it is on the current publish (not the intent of the idea). This idea has room to grow.

We've been debating what to do about Mage Armor for weeks now and we still don't have a good answer. Maybe there just isn't one. On top of that, even if the problem were solved, half the dexer arties set to be gimped are leather/cloth/glasses and don't even use the Mage Armor property. Maybe this just isn't the way to go.

Inherent Casting Focus on leather, inherent SSI on studded, inherent HCI on metal, everything medable. All armor becomes viable while remaining distinct. Nobody has to ditch any arties, nobody has to design any items to remove properties, and there's no cascade of nerfs to fix self-created problems. If they can't remove Mage Armor from existing items, let it become a pre-patch legacy property that does nothing.

"What if it's unbalanced?" Then you test it and balance it like anything else. At least that's a straightforward process, unlike this whole tail-chasing Mage Armor debate.

 

[Gunsmoke]

Ive been reading these posts throughout the pages and never seen one very important thing about all the new changes to the armor..

the damage that will be consumed by the type of armor type that is worn....

this goes back to the first years of uo . remember when having a full plate suit would consume up to 50% of the damage from the other warrior attacker and being hit from mage spells would do slightly more damage becuz u where wearing METAL armor.

UO raised the bar by coming out with Age of Shadow exp. and really made people item/power hungry over getting the most highest hitting weapon and or suit just to rampage over ppl. yes i cant say its was really kwel on what they did but i think today it has gone way out of hand with Over powered God sort of speak.

 

[chise2]

We've been debating what to do about Mage Armor for weeks now and we still don't have a good answer. Maybe there just isn't one. On top of that, even if the problem were solved, half the dexer arties set to be gimped are leather/cloth/glasses and don't even use the Mage Armor property. Maybe this just isn't the way to go.

Inherent Casting Focus on leather, inherent SSI on studded, inherent HCI on metal, everything medable. All armor becomes viable while remaining distinct. Nobody has to ditch any arties, nobody has to design any items to remove properties, and there's no cascade of nerfs to fix self-created problems. If they can't remove Mage Armor from existing items, let it become a pre-patch legacy property that does nothing.

"What if it's unbalanced?" Then you test it and balance it like anything else. At least that's a straightforward process, unlike this whole tail-chasing Mage Armor debate.

Yeah as much as I like the lmc/stamina protection thing they have going now, this mage armor issue is just a real headache. Not to mention as much as I like the stamina protection I am guessing the nerfs to stamina leech and divine fury were to make it more appealing. So the more I think about it the more I think your idea or something similar would be better. Of course you would still have to balance resists not to mention balance out the material costs of the different armors. I mean for instance to give a couple examples a pair of studded leggings takes 12 leather while a pair of bone leggings take 10 leather and 6 bone. Another example is a studded tunic takes 14 leather while bone armor takes 12 leather and 10 bones. So in the case of bone armor for instance not only does it take two materials it takes more materials over all. So as a result most would just stick with studded armor. Those are just a couple examples I am guessing there are probably more comparing different types of armor. Of course you also have to consider how difficult it is to acquire the different materials as well. For instance I was going to use plate armor and dragon scale as an example of material costs but then I remember that with the randomness of ore and difficulty to smelt getting valorite/verite ingots is actually probably quite a bit harder then going out and farming dragons. So in the case of something like that having dragon armor cost more material wise probably makes sense. However I would lower the difficulty to be more in line with making plate armor.

 

[Cetric]

i just dont see the issue with mage armor that you are all complain about. the Glads collar is the focal point of all of this obviously. it is a monster of a piece, just ignore the fact it is medable and doesnt help ur stam reduction and move past it, it will not break your suit.


I agree on the stam leech nerf needing removed, but thats about it. After spending some time with refinements i could even consider getting behind parts of it, though not in total.

I just dont want to see this publish drag on any longer than it has to.

 

[KLOMP]

Yeah yeah, it's not a problem for you so everyone else should STFU.

 

[Cetric]

I mean for instance to give a couple examples a pair of studded leggings takes 12 leather while a pair of bone leggings take 10 leather and 6 bone. Another example is a studded tunic takes 14 leather while bone armor takes 12 leather and 10 bones. So in the case of bone armor for instance not only does it take two materials it takes more materials over all. So as a result most would just stick with studded armor.

Not entirely the case. the two push different base resists (think studded has higher fire) though the total is the same. In refinements, they have different desirables. In addition to that, people may pick one over the other for cosmedics. But in the current state of refinements, bone and studded have very different purposes.

 

[Cetric]

Yeah yeah, it's not a problem for you so everyone else should STFU.

Woah woah there big guy...

tell me how the glads collar being medable is game breaking? i'd love to hear it. All it will do by being able to remove the mage arms is enhance it in its non-med suit uses. they said they are considering an option to remove mage armor... wait and see? Either way it doesn't really hurt anything. if you want the benefits of the non-med, then build ur suit without the glads collar..

 

[chise2]

Not entirely the case. the two push different base resists (think studded has higher fire) though the total is the same. In refinements, they have different desirables. In addition to that, people may pick one over the other for cosmedics. But in the current state of refinements, bone and studded have very different purposes.

Good point about the refinements forgot about those. Though if the changes to refinements include making it so that you can raise and lower resists in any order there goes that incentive. I agree that some would still use the bone armor for looks but I just think it would be wise to even things up you know?

 

[Cetric]

Good point about the refinements forgot about those. Though if the changes to refinements include making it so that you can raise and lower resists in any order there goes that incentive. I agree that some would still use the bone armor for looks but I just think it would be wise to even things up you know?

I hear ya, i actually do not like the idea of being able to pick what resist you lower. I'd be willing to bet everyone would have 75 fire, wouldn't you?

 

[chise2]

I hear ya, i actually do not like the idea of being able to pick what resist you lower. I'd be willing to bet everyone would have 75 fire, wouldn't you?

Yeah true that and physical are the first resists I would think of raising lol.

 

[Kage]

100% accurate. Why would someone who mainly plays a thrower NOT want a huge Ninja nerf? This player also never plays faction so has no experience dealing with fighting outnumbered. Goodbye outnumbered pvp!

Hey Kage I hear League of Legends is fun! Downloading!

I dowloaded it but I could never get it to load up. Kept failing to patch*

 

[chise2]

i just dont see the issue with mage armor that you are all complain about. the Glads collar is the focal point of all of this obviously. it is a monster of a piece, just ignore the fact it is medable and doesnt help ur stam reduction and move past it, it will not break your suit.


I agree on the stam leech nerf needing removed, but thats about it. After spending some time with refinements i could even consider getting behind parts of it, though not in total.

I just dont want to see this publish drag on any longer than it has to.

Yeah and I think with a mage armor removal tool that issue is solved. I think only 5 pieces count anyway. Personally for me the issue is the cost of mage armor it takes an imbue slot and 140 imbuing weight so it should get some of the benefit. However because of the really really good loot you can get from places I and others are not comfortable with the idea of letting it have the full benefit. So its been a bit of a headache coming up with a solution. However even though I like Klomps idea I donlt think at this point they are going to redesign such a big part of the publish. So we are probably just going to have to deal with whatever solutions they come up with even if they are not perfect :/

 

[KLOMP]

A mage armor removal tool solves part of the problem, in an ugly, half-assed "We didn't realize dexer gear had Mage Armor until after we came up with the idea, because we don't play UO!" sort of way.

 

[Cetric]

They'll add a mage armor removal tool, and then everyone will complain that bear and deer masks are med-able. Oh, and mace and shields/prismatics. Oh wait, since it only counts 5 pieces, the head slot can be the sixth.. oh my, silly me.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

They'll add a mage armor removal tool, and then everyone will complain that bear and deer masks are med-able. Oh, and mace and shields/prismatics. Oh wait, since it only counts 5 pieces, the head slot can be the sixth.. oh my, silly me.

Cetric, my issue has nothing to do with the Glady's collar.... (I use fey, rune beetle and 2 plate mage armor pieces so yes this would effect me) but here is the core of the issue...when I see other characters s in game they are almost always Elves or Gargoyles... humans have become a rarity in recent times (plague perhaps) removing mage armor would further nerf humans who have created mage armor suits to take advantage of their humanity [Garg's get an auto mr bonus and elves get the 20 extra mana].... humans get the jack of all trades which gives them an unarmored or mage armored mana regen bonus because of med.

With the changes as proposed, why would anyone play a non-med human when they could play an Elf or Garg which can take advantage of the non-med properties of the armor and retain the MR or Mana plus racial bonus's.

 

[KLOMP]

You're still losing out since you could otherwise fill the sixth slot with a studded/bone item and pick up some LMC. Remember the two calculations are separate and don't necessarily have to count the same five items. Plus you're taking a ton of second-rate arties (Bloodworms, Stormgrips, a bunch of old Doom junk, etc.) and completely relegating them to the trash heap. And any leather that drops in dungeons with dexer mods on it is even more worthless than plate with caster mods. At least dexers need mana.

Heck I don't think gargoyles can even get the full five-piece bonus for anything, ever, can they? They don't wear gloves or helmets and the necklaces and earrings they wear are medable by default.

And sure you can cough into your collar and dismiss all this stuff. Screw all those old arties, only dumb newbs would use those. Screw that extra 3% LMC, you don't really need it. Screw that... uh... entire race in a game that only has three races. You can throw all that under the bus.

But why? What about this crap is so brilliant that we shoud have to shrug and throw anything under the bus? It's an inelegant and poorly-considered change that would never have gotten off the drawing board if anyone over there had remembered "Oh yeah many dexer items are medable too!" without us having to scream it at them.

EDIT: Plus what Lore said. There's pretty much no reason to be anything but an elf under this system. You can wear everything and get all the bonuses on top of your extra mana.

 

[HP_Zoro_HP]

if elfs get the +20 mana then I say give humans +20 life to make the cap 170? Or maybe even just +10 (to encourage more to be human after this pub)? This post is in reply to KLOMPS post above about how everyone will be elf after this (or how there won't really be a reason to be human after this pub).

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

Also, what up man? My first real guild was Ankh of Unity on GL, right after Trammel came out. I still remember hanging out on the roof of that large tower alongside the road to Skara with Messenger and Maximus and Olga and all of them. You placed my very first house for me.

Klomp that is awesome! Some of my best memories in UO are with that group, and on the top of that Tower Who were you back then?

Ironically if this publish goes through, Lore will likely go back to his full studded suit like he wore in those days. In fact, I still have it because its his his true rp form and a reminders me of those pre-Aos days. [a Trinsic style paladin with basically the same temp as today but exchanged mage for chiv].

Crafting Question: Could I theoretically reforge my old, double exceptional studded set to be useful in today's game if this publish goes through? I think that would be pretty cool, that armor has seen me through some crazy battles (Though it was looted and re-made countless times but I consider it the same armor

-Lore's Player

 

[KLOMP]

Klomp that is awesome! Some of my best memories in UO are with that group, and on the top of that Tower Who were you back then?

I was Thorgrim back then. To this day I tell people the story of the time like eight of us went down into Hythloth to kill daemons and ended up attacking a balron instead because we didn't know what we were doing. It "farmed the adventurer spawn" while people ran around like maniacs trying to manually pick up every item on their bodies. I still remember Olga going "Save my chair! Save my chair!" trying to get someone to rescue that little stool she carried around to sit on. You weren't along on that one, but you did pat us on the head when we finally limped back to the guild house.

Crafting Question: Could I theoretically reforge my old, double exceptional studded set to be useful in today's game if this publish goes through? I think that would be pretty cool, that armor has seen me through some crazy battles (Though it was looted and re-made countless times but I consider it the same armor

I have no earthly idea how reforging works. Can someone tell me how I see a pair of crafted, marked, reforged woodland arms with 10% HCI on Atlantic? Yet on Test Center I can't figure out any way to put HCI on armor even with unlimited resources?

Oh yeah, and plate is still deader than a doornail. If all metal is the same, why wear the kind that has a 95 str requirement?

 

[Fridgster]

So I've been playing around with copper runics on the test shard. Made an interesting template:

120 bushido
120 weapon
120 tactics
100 anatomy
100 necro
85 Chivilary
75 Spirit Speak

I removed parry increased DCI to 85 (which is actually pretty easy using copper runic hammers).
Increased my mana to 90 with stamina at 190 and hp at 120.

Using a mix of chainmail and plate I also increased my LMC to 50.

I was still able to keep my resists at 65+ cap.


Life leech from curse weapon + vamp form pretty much gave me unlimited life. Also without parry
I was able to use a reforged shield with some nice stats.

I never seemed to run out of mana and my life (and therefore my stamina) really never dipped at all when
fighting swoop.

I still have to do some more testing when I get home from work, however this looks like one heck of
a template. Might even try replacing spirit speak with focus.

 

[Barry Gibb]

Inherent Casting Focus on leather, inherent SSI on studded, inherent HCI on metal, everything medable.

I would rather see these type of properties be part of the Special Material Bonus, than inherent to a type of armor. It would give us more variety for crafting/enhancing. The current proposal is simple/straight forward, Mana vs Stamina Protection. The inherent differences in the types of armor should be simple.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[Barry Gibb]

i just dont see the issue with mage armor that you are all complain about.

I also fail to see the any problem with Mage Armor Artifacts. They act as leather now. They act as leather with the publish. They just use diffefent art (than their leather counterpart). If they used leather armor art, would this "issue" ever been raised?

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[Cetric]

Cetric, my issue has nothing to do with the Glady's collar.... (I use fey, rune beetle and 2 plate mage armor pieces so yes this would effect me) but here is the core of the issue...when I see other characters s in game they are almost always Elves or Gargoyles... humans have become a rarity in recent times (plague perhaps) removing mage armor would further nerf humans who have created mage armor suits to take advantage of their humanity [Garg's get an auto mr bonus and elves get the 20 extra mana].... humans get the jack of all trades which gives them an unarmored or mage armored mana regen bonus because of med.

With the changes as proposed, why would anyone play a non-med human when they could play an Elf or Garg which can take advantage of the non-med properties of the armor and retain the MR or Mana plus racial bonus's.

Because humans have Beards....

Just kidding.

But really, i see your point. i don't know. jack of all trades still has its uses (20 tracking, 20 med in some cases, 20 detect, 20 magery, 20 focus) and i don't know what bonus Tough gives you in stam reduction.

One of the reasons i still bother with humans is because they can carry more potions, lol.

 

[chise2]

I also fail to see the any problem with Mage Armor Artifacts. They act as leather now. They act as leather with the publish. They just use diffefent art (than their leather counterpart). If they used leather armor art, would this "issue" ever been raised?

Stayin Alive,

BG

Yeah I kinda agree with what your saying but at the same time I can understand the other point of view considering mage armor costs a lot to imbue and costs a slot. But at the same time I and others donlt want it see it get the full benefits because of the kind of armor you can get from Shame/Wrong. But if some kind of compromise isn;t made it just kinda seems like mage armor is a pointless property.

 

[Barry Gibb]

But if some kind of compromise isn;t made it just kinda seems like mage armor is a pointless property.

To me, intentionally imbuing Mage Armor on a piece of armor is pointless already (no publish needed). You can get the same benefit (medable) on leather/cloth/leaf without the sacrifice of imbuing points, an imbuing slot, ingredients, and the cost/time to gather the ingredients. If you decide to imbue Mage Armor currently, it is for cosmetic reasons and the ability to meditate, since using a naturally medable armor is clearly superior choice. Regarding ruinc crafting, it is just an unlucky roll of the dice (unless using exceptional SE platemail).

If Mage Armor does not provide at least a partial LMC Bonus / SP inherent to the armor it is on, the above will still be true. I would like to see some degree of benefit for the Mage Armor property (in regards to LMC Bonus or SP), but if it does not happen, I will not be heartbroken. Meditatiion is a powerful skill.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[chise2]

To me, intentionally imbuing Mage Armor on a piece of armor is pointless already (no publish needed). You can get the same benefit (medable) on leather/cloth/leaf without the sacrifice of imbuing points, an imbuing slot, ingredients, and the cost/time to gather the ingredients. If you decide to imbue Mage Armor currently, it is for cosmetic reasons and the ability to meditate, since using a naturally medable armor is clearly superior choice. Regarding ruinc crafting, it is just an unlucky roll of the dice (unless using exceptional SE platemail).

If Mage Armor does not provide at least a partial LMC Bonus / SP inherent to the armor it is on, the above will still be true. I would like to see some degree of benefit for the Mage Armor property (in regards to LMC Bonus or SP), but if it does not happen, I will not be heartbroken. Meditatiion is a powerful skill.

Stayin Alive,

BG

Yeah I am kinda torn on all this but I can;t help but agree with all you said above. I mean you are right the only reason to imbue mage armor now is for cosmetic reasons. I wonder though what would people feel about making mage armor cheaper?

 

[KLOMP]

I also fail to see the any problem with Mage Armor Artifacts. They act as leather now. They act as leather with the publish. They just use diffefent art (than their leather counterpart). If they used leather armor art, would this "issue" ever been raised?

Yes, because saying "We didn't nerf this item, we just buffed every other item!" is a meaningless semantic argument. There do exist dexer artifacts that are leather, they are rendered garbage by this change, and there is no bloody point to that fact.

Currently it's clear that the developers believe two things.

1) They believe that the amount of mana a dexer will have without medable armor is not sufficient. Thus we've seen a series of proposals, first inherent mana phase and then inherent LMC, intended to remedy this fact.

2) They believe that the amount of mana a caster has with medable armor is sufficient. Hence the move to prevent meditation from being combined with these new bonuses.

Well if medability currently represents just the right amount of mana for everyone in their opinion, such that mages must get nothing in addition to it, but dexers must be compensated for giving it up, then why mess with it at all? Just make it universal and move on to differentiating armor in other ways. Put new inherent mods on armor, or put the mods on materials, or whatever you want.

I mean, we already have a mechanic that allows you to have more mana. It's called medability. Why invent a second mana-boosting armor property when it just means you're going to have to jump through hoops to keep people from stacking the two of them?

Back before AOS it used to be that leather gave you more mana, while metal gave you more protection, and that made sense. Now we're looking at a system where leather gives you more mana, while metal also gives you more mana but... uh... in a different way, so... uh... wait now we need an item to remove Mage Armor... and uh screw leather dexer gear, so on and so forth.

It's inelegant and needlessly clumsy, and just seems to show a lack of foresight.

 

[chise2]

Really I think what should happen in a future patch regardless of what they do this one is they need to take a look at a lot of these artifacts. Many of these need upgrading. I would rather them upgrade the unused/ or used but still not so good artifacts then make yet more ones. I do hope they consider Klomps idea but there is a good chance they wonlt. We also have to realize there is probably no perfect answer here. I bet even if they went with Klomps idea there would be people complaining after the notes were patched. But maybe I will be surprised! *probably not lol*

As for leather dexxer artis being made garbage I disagree. Personally I am still going to use my all leather suit for pvp most likely for instance. I mean it didn;t lose any functionality it will work the same as it did before. However for pvm I guess I see your point. Some of these artificats might need some upgrading anyway. However either way still not garbage. And you know I suspect that at least some of the concern of leather dexxer artis would be removed if they addressed the stamina leech/divine fury issue.

Because humans have Beards....

Just kidding.

But really, i see your point. i don't know. jack of all trades still has its uses (20 tracking, 20 med in some cases, 20 detect, 20 magery, 20 focus) and i don't know what bonus Tough gives you in stam reduction.

One of the reasons i still bother with humans is because they can carry more potions, lol.

Yeah the extra stam protection humans are going to get is nice I guess but it does really seem like they need something more to compete with elves and gargoyles. To be honest though I hate the look of elves and gargoyles so I am staying human no matter what lol.

 

[chise2]

I would rather see these type of properties be part of the Special Material Bonus, than inherent to a type of armor. It would give us more variety for crafting/enhancing. The current proposal is simple/straight forward, Mana vs Stamina Protection. The inherent differences in the types of armor should be simple.

Stayin Alive,

BG

Yeah true I do really like Klomps idea but those would be great for material bonuses. I donlt think his proposal is complicated but then again many people think this current proposal is complicated. Like I have said before I dontl think there is going to be any answer where someone doesn;t find something to complain about lol.

 

[chise2]

Ok so going with Klomps idea some more *hey they might consider it!* What would be some good numbers for the inherant properties? Also should we stick with only 5 pieces effecting it or should all 6 pieces? As for numbers I am thinking no more then 1 or 2% per piece. Probably 1% for casting focus for instance. Actually especially if we are going with all 6 pieces count 1% for all of them sounds ok to me. Maybe 2% for hci I donlt know. But the cap is just 12% for spell focus so even at 1% per piece you are halfway there with a full leather suit. 6% ssi would be nice but I worry 12% could be too much. 6% hci is probably fine too but this is one where I think it maybe ok to let it go to 2% per piece.

 

[Barry Gibb]

I wonder though what would people feel about making mage armor cheaper?

I don't think it would hurt anything to make it 100.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[chise2]

I don't think it would hurt anything to make it 100.

Stayin Alive,

BG

Yeah that is what I was thinking too. I mean if they are not going to let mage armor have any lmc/stamina bonuses I think they probably should make mage armor cheaper.

 

[Barry Gibb]

Yeah true I do really like Klomps idea but those would be great for material bonuses.

Material bonuses need some lovin'.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[chise2]

Material bonuses need some lovin'.

Stayin Alive,

BG

Yeah we are way over due for ingots to have some interesting bonuses like wood does. They could even give horned and barbed leather bonuses if they gave ingots bonuses.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

Yeah we are way over due for ingots to have some interesting bonuses like wood does. They could even give horned and barbed leather bonuses if they gave ingots bonuses.

I am refining my initial idea with all the additional feedback and will not limit wood in my proposal (as it is in the current publish) because I am going to leave room that its currently a little more powerful then other armors and that ingot, scales, and leather types get a similiar upgrade.

I really like your ideas for adding things to help ssi, hci or spell focus but agree that those might be better left for materials that need updating. I'd really like us to look at what the Dev's are showing us and using the feedback to make it constructive to what we are likely going to see....

Doesn't mean there idea is better then yours (because I really like where your idea is going) only that if we help provide feedback to balance what they are proposing now [Stamina, LMC, DCI caps, HLD, Mage Armor, etc] and plant the seed of how to implement ingots and leathers like wood is currently that might help produce the best overall system that makes it into the game.

I will rock the boat when something is really bad, this overall proposal the Dev's have put out is really good.

I also think there is this bashing that goes on about how much do Dev's know about this game.... I think no matter how Vet you are, this game is so complex and diverse (its why I still play) find a person who is aware of all aspects when making a change would be extremely difficult to find. It's why player testing and feedback are so important... Yet I am sure the Dev's dread it because the abiliity to derail what they are trying to accomplish can happen ie faction changes.

So Dev's need to be responsible when proposing content to understand what it is they are changing and how it will effect skills, play style, balance and community and in return when changes that meet that standard hit the test center we should really give the Dev's the benefit of the doubt and fully test the ideas...

The reverse is possible as well where the community tests ideas, embraces them in general, finds a few areas that need to be adjusted and the publish just goes through as is.... that would create an atmospher of thanks for asking for me feedback, using my limited playing time to test things and then totally blowing us off....

Give and take to keep UO a living game,

-Lore's Player

PS: Something that has not been mentioned but doesn't mage armor also allow stealthing in non-med armor as it was leather... Just remembered when my brother replaced his rp ranger's armor (old ranger armor (non med) with scout armor (med) and said even though it was the same type (studded) he could stealth much easier in the new digs.

 

[chise2]

I am refining my initial idea with all the additional feedback and will not limit wood in my proposal (as it is in the current publish) because I am going to leave room that its currently a little more powerful then other armors and that ingot, scales, and leather types get a similiar upgrade.

I really like your ideas for adding things to help ssi, hci or spell focus but agree that those might be better left for materials that need updating. I'd really like us to look at what the Dev's are showing us and using the feedback to make it constructive to what we are likely going to see....

Doesn't mean there idea is better then yours (because I really like where your idea is going) only that if we help provide feedback to balance what they are proposing now [Stamina, LMC, DCI caps, HLD, Mage Armor, etc] and plant the seed of how to implement ingots and leathers like wood is currently that might help produce the best overall system that makes it into the game.

I will rock the boat when something is really bad, this overall proposal the Dev's have put out is really good.

I also think there is this bashing that goes on about how much do Dev's know about this game.... I think no matter how Vet you are, this game is so complex and diverse (its why I still play) find a person who is aware of all aspects when making a change would be extremely difficult to find. It's why player testing and feedback are so important... Yet I am sure the Dev's dread it because the abiliity to derail what they are trying to accomplish can happen ie faction changes.

So Dev's need to be responsible when proposing content to understand what it is they are changing and how it will effect skills, play style, balance and community and in return when changes that meet that standard hit the test center we should really give the Dev's the benefit of the doubt and fully test the ideas...

The reverse is possible as well where the community tests ideas, embraces them in general, finds a few areas that need to be adjusted and the publish just goes through as is.... that would create an atmospher of thanks for asking for me feedback, using my limited playing time to test things and then totally blowing us off....

Give and take to keep UO a living game,

-Lore's Player

PS: Something that has not been mentioned but doesn't mage armor also allow stealthing in non-med armor as it was leather... Just remembered when my brother replaced his rp ranger's armor (old ranger armor (non med) with scout armor (med) and said even though it was the same type (studded) he could stealth much easier in the new digs.

Well actually the hci/spellfocus/ssi on armor was Klomps idea But otherwise I basically agree with what you have said here

 

[KLOMP]

Ok so going with Klomps idea some more *hey they might consider it!* What would be some good numbers for the inherant properties? Also should we stick with only 5 pieces effecting it or should all 6 pieces? As for numbers I am thinking no more then 1 or 2% per piece. Probably 1% for casting focus for instance. Actually especially if we are going with all 6 pieces count 1% for all of them sounds ok to me. Maybe 2% for hci I donlt know. But the cap is just 12% for spell focus so even at 1% per piece you are halfway there with a full leather suit. 6% ssi would be nice but I worry 12% could be too much. 6% hci is probably fine too but this is one where I think it maybe ok to let it go to 2% per piece.

Yeah 1% or 2% tops per piece for most bonuses. My concern with putting the inherent properties on materials instead of on armor types, though, is that we might end up drastically devaluing the rare materials like Valorite. I mean it's sort of a two-edged sword. Either one material is the best and the others are all just fodder for grinding BODs, or else they're all good and there's no reason to bother with the rare ones.

I mean if everyone decides Valorite is pointless and Shadow Iron is the way to go, that's a serious economic disruption. If everyone decides chainmail stinks and ringmail is the best, well that's no big deal, just buff chain a little bit at your leisure maybe.

We want the hardcore player to be able to select the single property he wishes to focus on, while the casual player can just go "Well they all give SOMETHING!" and just roll with whatever and be cool.

Oh, also, I'd still want stamina protection as an inherent property on something, at a level that's balanced versus other bonuses. It's perfectly fine conceptually. An increased durability cap (or decreased durability loss) would also be a very desirable attribute for items crafted with the intent of being imbued.

PS: Communication doesn't just mean us yelling at you, devs. If one of you is reading this and feels like it, I would dearly love to have you critique some of us archair game designers and tell us why our ****ty ideas aren't really spun gold like we think they are. It's cool, we can take it, and you KNOW you want to do it!

 

[Cetric]

material bonuses are kind of nice as it is, i see where everyones coming from, but...

barbed and horned have different resists and are used differently, spined obviously is luck. metals are all over the place in resist too.

everyone just wants all armor to be like woodland, which is a scary thought.


But ur right, people will decide a certain material trumps others. if val gives, say SSI, won't val be overly heavily used?

 

[KLOMP]

But ur right, people will decide a certain material trumps others. if val gives, say SSI, won't val be overly heavily used?

Certainly less heavily used than now, where it's literally the only metal worth making into armor. You don't really care about the distribution of resists, you just pick the thing with the most total resists and let the RNG and imbuing sort it out. My concern is that a lot of people will just go "Well 5 SSI isn't much anyway, I'll just take the 5 HCI from agapite" or whatever and valorite will plummet in value.

Assuming resists were balanced, of course, which they would have to be if you expected anyone to use anything but val.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

Certainly less heavily used than now, where it's literally the only material worth making into armor. You don't really care about the distribution of resists, you just pick the thing with the most total resists and let the RNG and imbuing sort it out. My concern is that a lot of people will just go "Well 5 SSI isn't much anyway, I'll just take the 5 HCI from agapite" or whatever and valorite will plummet in value.

Assuming resists were balanced, of course, which they would have to be if you expected anyone to use anything but val.

What if you made it a little more class specific so each ore has value amongst a certain group. Shadow could be ninja, thief, ranger oriented... Verite Mage types, Valorite warrior types etc. I kept all resists as is except for gold getting a small bump and recieving no additional benefits (already has luck and lower requirements)

Values listed here are purposely lower then you would get on wood(approx 1/2) because as Pub 81 looks at present, wood does not have inherent properties of LMC and Stamina protection. If that changes I think HCI, DCI and Damage properties should bump to similiar values [5,5,10]

Valorite could be your warrior ore, give hci similiar to wood (+2-3 HCI)

Verite might be your mage related ore, sdi 1% and mage armor

Agapite could be a defensive ore (+2-3 DCI)

Gold is already set with bonus's with luck and lower requirements for your treasurer seeker but since everything is getting a bonus, gold should get a small boost in its resists (1,2,2,2,2) (9 total).

Bronze could be the ssi ore (+2% ssi) (+5% on a weapon)

Shadow could be ninja, thief, ranger oriented... makes metal armor - work like leather - stealth armor (haven't tested if Mage armor does this). If so mage armor and a stealth related bonus..Tons of ways you could go with that... give bonus to hiding or stealth, decrease chance of being revealed, allow more damage to be taken before auto revealing, etc.. unique and desirable to different playstyles and groups..

Copper would be your anti corosion, poison eater 2%, acid resistent, self repair.

Dull Copper would be your damage armor similiar to wood (+5 damage)

I think if you spread things out so each ore has value and depending on your build certain ores would be more beneficial. Mixing and matching might work but also focusing on one type might be more beneficial.

The Dragon scales could work as Damage eater enhancers (3%)
Black: Kenetic
Blue: Enenrgy
Green: Poison
Red: Fire
White: Cold
Yellow: Damage (General)

Leather Types:
Barbed (focus 1%)
Horned (hpr 2)
Spined (Luck)

All exsisting armor weapons etc would gain the bonus's of the materials they are crafted retroactively.

This is just a quick sample of a way materials could be used but hopefully it shows that no one ore type will be the only valuable one and you could really tailor a suit in the way you wanted. Also like enhancing with wood this should be a tricky proposition with a high likelihood of failure.

-Lore's Player

 

[KLOMP]

What if you made it a little more class specific so each ore has value amongst a certain group. Shadow could be ninja, thief, ranger oriented... Verite Mage types, Valorite warrior types etc. I kept all resists as is except for gold getting a small bump and recieving no additional benefits (already has luck and lower requirements)

I'm not sure I understand. Why would you want a ninja wearing metal armor at all? Why would you want mages in plate? If you want everyone to be able to wear everything, it would be much more efficient to just make armor type purely cosmetic and save yourself a lot of work.

On the other hand, if you segregate by template archetype and give all three leathers caster mods, while giving all eight metals dexer mods, that has problems of its own. For one, you've just made everything from studded to bone to ninja suits all into caster gear.

If you distinguish by armor type, however, you have a lot more freedom. You can lump things together or separate them to whatever extent you wish. For example, you could put chain and ringmail into the same category while giving plate a different bonus entirely. Or you could give ninja leather a stealth mod while still giving standard leather armor mage bonuses.

Making all material types desirable is a topic worth discussing, but I think it falls outside the scope of what we're talking about here. It's a topic with enough economic and gameplay ramifications to merit separate consideration. Ideally I would like both material and armor types to matter in their own ways, but attempting to do both at once is overreaching drastically.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

I'm not sure I understand.

No, that's me that didn't understand... I was looking at it purely material wise rather then the type of armor you create with the material. Not saying that wouldn't be one heck of an interesting experience but I got a complete heachache when I realized what you were saying combined with what I was saying.... I was never good at three dimensional chess and this seems even more complicated.

-Lore's Player

 

[KLOMP]

Just to spitball the latest iteration of what I'd do...

* All armor becomes medable and the Mage Armor property goes away, as previously stated.

* The Elves Only property goes away too, just because it's pointless and limiting and I don't like it.

* Platemail and stone armors gain a stamina protection effect as an inherent bonus. This effect is probably a fair amount smaller than what heavy armor currently receives on Test Center, so as not to be imbalanced versus the bonuses on other armor types.

* Chainmail, ringmail, bone armor, and all metal helmets not specifically designated as plate gain a 2% bonus to HCI per piece, which can exceed the cap of 45.

* Studded leather, hide armor, and ninja suits gain a 2% DCI bonus per piece which... well... how this would interact with your DCI cap would depend upon exactly how Refinement works out in the end. The point here is to create a hybrid armor type which both casters and dexers can wear without feeling dumb.

* Leather armor, gargish cloth, and leaf armor gain an inherent 2% casting focus bonus which can exceed the cap of 12.

* If you think a particular bonus is too strong or too weak, that's fine. You're probably right. I'm not pretending my suggestions here are perfect and could never change in testing. I'm just giving you an idea of the sort of distinctions I would create.

Net result: A nice variety of armor in use, but everyone isn't just wearing everything. Not TOO complicated, since this post is pretty much all the documentation required. A hardcore player can tweak his stats with these bonuses, but a casual player just needs to know "Heavy armor for fighty type, lighter armor for casty type!" in order to get something relevant to his character.

 

[KLOMP]

No, that's me that didn't understand... I was looking at it purely material wise rather then the type of armor you create with the material. Not saying that wouldn't be one heck of an interesting experience but I got a complete heachache when I realized what you were saying combined with what I was saying.... I was never good at three dimensional chess and this seems even more complicated.

-Lore's Player

You forgot you couldn't make leather armor out of Verite. It's cool man, it's awful late.

 

[spoonyd]

Ok bro

Do you think that anyone playing Atlantic doesn't know that you only play your crappy mage when you have a group on?

"a huge Ninja nerf" Huh?? They tweaked one spell and changed nothing else for Ninja. That's your huge nerf?
Its only a huge nerf if that is the only Ninja spell you use and rely on bro. The rest of us are quite okay with it as we aren't mashing it all day long.

About the only thing that everyone in this post has agreed on is that animal form needs to be nerfed.
Except for you of course lol. Please read the entire thread and tell me I am wrong.

If you rely on animal form to fight solo you really aren't fighting solo. You are simply running away in form. Everyone else understands that.

Join faction yet?

No I didn't think so and I play solo regularly. Guess it's wrong from me to want survivability since I play alone. Guess you're ok with dying? If that's the case it's not a surprise that you argue and don't understand sitting out for 20 minutes. As for playing my mages solo the reason you never see me is because I'm raiding a spawn which you never do. Plus since you aren't faction I have 0 reason to attack you in Yew. You'll just mana dump and run till you miss a lot and die. No stat loss and you're back in two minutes. Personally I'll pass on the RNG bingo game. Pointless when you can just come back immediately.

As for the real pvpers left on ATL who do play factions, they sure don't wanna get ganked and sit for 20 all because they wanted to fight outnumbered. Let me know how much fun Yew gate is once you're just another blue thrower in a field of 15 blues holding hands because no one wants to fight on a red/faction alone or small group. Might as well just sit in Luna. "Ok bro"?

 

[Petra Fyde]

Goldberg-Chessy said: ↑

Ok bro

Do you think that anyone playing Atlantic doesn't know that you only play your crappy mage when you have a group on?

"a huge Ninja nerf" Huh?? They tweaked one spell and changed nothing else for Ninja. That's your huge nerf?
Its only a huge nerf if that is the only Ninja spell you use and rely on bro. The rest of us are quite okay with it as we aren't mashing it all day long.

About the only thing that everyone in this post has agreed on is that animal form needs to be nerfed.
Except for you of course lol. Please read the entire thread and tell me I am wrong.

If you rely on animal form to fight solo you really aren't fighting solo. You are simply running away in form. Everyone else understands that.​

Join faction yet?

No I didn't think so and I play solo regularly. Guess it's wrong from me to want survivability since I play alone. Guess you're ok with dying? If that's the case it's not a surprise that you argue and don't understand sitting out for 20 minutes. As for playing my mages solo the reason you never see me is because I'm raiding a spawn which you never do. Plus since you aren't faction I have 0 reason to attack you in Yew. You'll just mana dump and run till you miss a lot and die. No stat loss and you're back in two minutes. Personally I'll pass on the RNG bingo game. Pointless when you can just come back immediately.

As for the real pvpers left on ATL who do play factions, they sure don't wanna get ganked and sit for 20 all because they wanted to fight outnumbered. Let me know how much fun Yew gate is once you're just another blue thrower in a field of 15 blues holding hands because no one wants to fight on a red/faction alone or small group. Might as well just sit in Luna. "Ok bro"?​

The next one to continue this 'board pvp' (which I've already asked you to stop) gets thread banned. Stay on topic, leave the personal stuff out. Last warning to all those involved in it.

 

[KLOMP]

Lore man I'm the Archair Designer Extraordinaire and you're even making my head hurt. Post that again but pretend we're just chilling on ICQ and you're telling me what they're gonna do to the game.

 

[chise2]

Yeah the material bonus issue is something that is going to take a lot of discussion/tweaking and not something that I hope they attempt this patch! After we see what they decide to do in the end this publish it will also help us come up with ideas for material bonuses.

 

[Barry Gibb]

casting focus bonus which can exceed the cap of 12.

This would be bad. I would not touch the CF cap. It is fine where it is now, at 12 CF roughly 1/8th of your spells cannot be interrupted (at 17 CF, possible with GM Inscription, it is roughly 1/6th).

In general, with a variety of bonuses (whether material or inherent) they should ONLY apply the property and not adjust any caps. I would leave cap adjustment to refinements, where there is a definative trade-off for the increase. If using a varying levels of a single bonus (such as the proposed LMC Bonus), having it go above the cap is much easier to manage/balance, since it is adjusting only one cap.

Adjusting the HCI, DCI, and CF Caps, without any trade-offs, would have grave consequences to combat balance and should be avoided. The LMC Cap is a far less imbalancing cap to adjust.

Stayin Alive,

BG