*PvP needs some Attention*

[CovenantX]

I sure do hope the Devs take everything into consideration b4 they do anything. Mystics have been in UO for how long now and this is just becoming a problem?

IMHO The reason this is now a problem is that more and more PvMers, the people that do Champ Spawns, have found an affective way to lessen the risk and are now able to keep more of the rewards from the Champ Spawn raiders.

First, How many threads have you forgotten that have stated Stone-form Protection is overpowered? all you have to do is look at all the pvp related threads from the last 2 years...

Second, More and more people found an Affective way to Lessen the risk? You mean, Removing the Risk Right ?

pretty much everything in this thread has been complained about being overpowered. (with the exception of cure pots) on multiple occasions.

Due to connection issues, as Slayer888 Has stated. he wont come to test shard to test it, the same could be said on my part... I mean, you wouldn't connect to a "Laggy shard", to test a (you) Macer vs (him/her) Thrower would you? doesn't make sense to me. so it explains why he wouldn't want to test it on Test Center.

I'm not going to spend 40mil on a xfer token to bring a 70 suit with 2/6 casting just to... Test something that should have been fixed before it's release. (due to the connection issue mentioned above)

Still don't get why you keep assuming this has anything to do with spawns/harrowers, but I guess you could say because it's the most common place to see a bunch of stone-form+protection mystics hmm?
Which by no means, says that it doesn't exist anywhere else... and still doesn't change the fact it's overpowered anyway.

But guess what... You don't see anyone complaining about a bunch of Pure Mages defending a harrower/champ Do you? you know why? because it's too easy to do it with mystics.. there's no reason to play anything else.

*I loled a little, thinking about pure mages defending something* /sad-face

 

[Speaking the Truth]

LOL Clearly you have no clue as to anything I do in UO or what templates I play, you just assume to know. Just for your info I gave up PvP when all the honorable PvPers left and that was well b4 Power Scrolls and AoS. The reason he stated he could not come to TC was the fact that his/her ping and not as you are trying to make it sound like he/she was scared or something. I have yet to see anything that can not be killed with the exception of "the Dark Lady" herself. It may take a group effort a while to do it but Messana has the only GOD template that I know of that is used regulary. And with that I leave you with this last thought.

I sure do hope the Devs take everything into consideration b4 they do anything. Mystics have been in UO for how long now and this is just becoming a problem?

IMHO The reason this is now a problem is that more and more PvMers, the people that do Champ Spawns, have found an affective way to lessen the risk and are now able to keep more of the rewards from the Champ Spawn raiders.

Never assume that you know anything about anybody.
Have a good day.

So in a thread that is dedicated to nothing but pvp after you've been assuming we want something a certain way for whatever you reason, you wait till almost 3 pages in to let us know you don't know what you're talking about because you haven't pvp'd in almost 10 years since the release of AoS was in Feb 2003.

Why would I go to his shard where I would ping as bad but it costs money? That doesnt make any sense, also a mage would need more timing than a dexer. Not only did I offer first, but my set up makes more sense. No one has to pay 80+mil.

It has been a problem for a long time. As Covenant X mentioned this is not the first thread that has been brought up about it. So it's not just not becoming a problem, it's been a problem for quite sometime. Most people don't see how it's fair for 1 spell to do 3 things at once, then pair it with a spell that makes you immune to everything that stops/lowers your healing, on top of raising the caps of your elemental resists.

It has nothing to do with champ spawns at all. I see this more of a problem just in open field pvp as someone is dismounted and a group of mystics cast only that on the target and it is impossible to kill said target.

You're right about assuming. I had thought you pvp'd a lot and were probably not very good. Then you tell me instead that it's been a decade since you've pvp'd but you're telling us that it's balanced in pvp. I love irony : ).

 

[Lord Frodo]

So in a thread that is dedicated to nothing but pvp after you've been assuming we want something a certain way for whatever you reason, you wait till almost 3 pages in to let us know you don't know what you're talking about because you haven't pvp'd in almost 10 years since the release of AoS was in Feb 2003.

So yours is the only valid concern in these threads as you curently PvP, so anybody that does not currently PvP is not allowed to post thier thoughts. I am so glad you cleared that up for me and others. When did UOStratics make this rule? I have every right to voice my concerns and believe me if it wasn't for people like me you would NERF every playstyle in UO but your own just so you could be the KING OF PvPers and control all the spawns.

I sure do hope the Devs take everything into consideration b4 they do anything. Mystics have been in UO for how long now and this is just becoming a problem?

IMHO The reason this is now a problem is that more and more PvMers, the people that do Champ Spawns, have found an affective way to lessen the risk and are now able to keep more of the rewards from the Champ Spawn raiders.

 

[CovenantX]

So yours is the only valid concern in these threads as you curently PvP, so anybody that does not currently PvP is not allowed to post thier thoughts. I am so glad you cleared that up for me and others.

No, his points (and many others) are based on the "PVP" aspect of UO, Where things being Overpowered reflect in a truly negative way, Hence why people who Do not pvp typically wouldn't agree with anything when it comes to nerfing pvm in the Slightest bit.

"Balance is when the fun would get restored... it is currently not balanced = much less fun."

When did UOStratics make this rule? I have every right to voice my concerns and believe me if it wasn't for people like me you would NERF every playstyle in UO but your own just so you could be the KING OF PvPers and control all the spawns.

Again... other than being a "good pvper" How would one become "King of Pvpers" when we're asking for Balance and not a nerf to completely remove use of skills/spells ?

Controlling Spawns... really?... I still have not seen anyone (Besides you) say anything about controlling spawns... Mysticism needs some adjustments, because there's no other skills that can compete when stoneform+protection is involved = overpowered.


Pvm has its own set of issues, that have nothing to do with pvp. why does no one say anything about the pvm problems caused by template imbalance issues? Because they benefit from it...

You don't see people complaining sampires are bringing in the most non-duped gold/artifacts from... any spawn/peerless, than any other template? some players benefit in a positive way from this, while others that don't take advantage and make a "Sampire" deal with slower kills which results in less overall rewards... Almost the same problem, just dealing with a different aspect f the game.

In the "PvP world" if you don't take advantage, and play the Very few effective templates/builds currently available. it forces one to play the only thing that can beat it.


This is primarily a PvP-Based thread, I respect your concerns of PVP-Related-Changes that affect Pvm in a negative way.

Instead of suggesting ways to fix problems without causing other problems to come about

you are saying things that have nothing to do with it, as quoted below.

IMHO The reason this is now a problem is that more and more PvMers, the people that do Champ Spawns, have found an affective way to lessen the risk and are now able to keep more of the rewards from the Champ Spawn raiders.

Typically PvM'ers don't know to use these skills/spells when they are being raided... Which is probably why they wouldn't comment on it, doesn't change the fact it is overpowered...

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Here's a few more ideas to hopefully get this thread back on track.
After a general damage bump instead of fueled/charged effects on weapons, make it so effects do not launch on specials.
(Specials become more situationally useful rather than constant spam, and damage output on regular hits increase so specials are exactly that "special")
This should cut down on the major issues of 1 hits almost taking people out, (a la axe of heavens dbl strike from AoS launch and similar stuff). This would also allow increase in cap in AI damage so that harder hitting weapons would be see a bit more use as well.

Mirror Images > Ninjitsu determines number of images which can be produced. Stealth/Hiding How far the damage can be transferred.
Stealth/Hiding also offer a chance to transfer the damage from spells.

Backstab -> Bonus damage applied when hitting target in the back.

Ki Attack -> Damage and Mana cost increase the longer its held before hitting. (Of course a cap on this of 2-4 seconds)

Lightning Strike -> Scale hit chance bonus with skill

Counter Attack -> Change to passive buff state not special state. (The actual counter attack when executed would be a regular attack not able to trigger a special move)

Confidence -> Change to scale with parry. (Bushido determines amount to regen, Parry determines the rate)


Evil Omen-> Resistable. Scale effect chance correctly for paralysis.

Field Spells Cause caster to flag on Target. (Ie only who the field hits when its laid down.)

Mind Rot -> Increase effect and scale it.

Pain Spike -> Scale Effect better skill/resist comparrison. Instead of returning after time, change it to regen over time.

Liche Form -> Fix bleed immunity. Add Life Leech to all Spell Damage dealt in liche form.


Now something been tossing back and forth.==========
No longer interuptible summoning mount or flying.
Still frozen while completing action, but non-interruptible.
Makes dismount less of a death sentence, but at the same time, remounting is dangerous since you are commited for that time.
Also helps to deal with the annoying 1v1 dismount, remount, rundown.
=====================

You know I had to quote this because I fear it may have gone unnoticed with some of the less than helpful back and forth posts after it. In general we should strive for these kind of suggestions. They are short, simple, thoughtful tweaks to many things in the game that just don't function well enough. I find myself reading many suggestions in Logrus' posts and imagining how much more fun the game could be. You ended with commenting on one of the most frustrating experiences in UO to me. It sure would be nice to not feel like I needed Ninja on almost all my PvP characters.

I've been working on some suggestions myself, I hope to be able to include soon. We just need to focus less on assuming or concerning ourselves with what others may think and stick to factual information and informed opinions of the topic. My fear is the thread may not be around when I get enough relevant information to post other good suggestions.

 

[Lord X]

I think in order for the non interuptable remount time, it would have to be a slightly longer time. Depending on how many are chasing you, it could be very very easy to time it were they are casting small or medium dmg spells to get back on your mount. I agree feeling like Ninja is needed on every temp sucks but at the same time I don't want to see Dismount become worthless or close to it.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

So yours is the only valid concern in these threads as you curently PvP, so anybody that does not currently PvP is not allowed to post thier thoughts. I am so glad you cleared that up for me and others. When did UOStratics make this rule? I have every right to voice my concerns and believe me if it wasn't for people like me you would NERF every playstyle in UO but your own just so you could be the KING OF PvPers and control all the spawns.

I sure do hope the Devs take everything into consideration b4 they do anything. Mystics have been in UO for how long now and this is just becoming a problem?

IMHO The reason this is now a problem is that more and more PvMers, the people that do Champ Spawns, have found an affective way to lessen the risk and are now able to keep more of the rewards from the Champ Spawn raiders.

How would you have any idea of what it is like in pvp if you don't pvp? That doesn't make any sense.

Again, no all anyone is talking about is that it's too powerful especially when paired up with stoneform and protection. 3 spells in 1(remove curse, cure, heal) with a low mana cost and low casting time. Not once was spawns mentioned until you mentioned them.

I also hope the devs take time to read things, this needs to be addressed.

Bleak, a simple 1 liner would help put everyone at ease, much like the 4 second wep thread.

Logrus - kind of on the right track some of those I disagree with though.

 

[kaio]

Intresting thread
I agree that the mystic in prot/stone form is way overpowered.
Garg thrower is way overpowered. Raise their weapon speed so they match archery weapons.
Poison skills should not have the orange petal effect
Further i think offencive spells mystic/necro/magery/... should dammage their target based on their targets armor resist & Resisting spells.
I think deathstrike should have same cold down timer as stealing, regarding smokebomb/hiding.
I also think that disco should be an aggrasive action when someone disco your'e pet, if your'e a tamer.

 

[lancelot99]

''Garg thrower is way overpowered. Raise their weapon speed so they match archery weapons''

I'm fine with that as long as you give Gargs the ability to Ride an armoured swamp dragon and longer distance throwing

 

[Logrus]

Paralyze Spell -> Change to 3 seconds Max, Chance to be resisted based on Magic Resist Skill
Following this change -> Paralysis not removed due to self damaging effects.

Mage Weapon -> Change to Casting Weapon. Lowers ALL casting skills, but takes the highest one as weapon skill.

Focus Attack -> Boost Hit chance or Lower the Mana Cost

Stone form - Immune to Curses, Poisons, AND State Buffs (magic reflection, protection, bless, strength etc.)

Cursed Weapon, -> Double Life Leech vs Players

Discord/Peace -> Offensive actions when targetting players or pets.

Discord -> Players should be discordable. (Short duration followed by a discord resistant timeframe)

Peace -> vs Players, Reduces damage taken and dealt to target, by up to 90% (Short duration followed by a resistant timeframe)

Golems -> Bondable!


More random stuff laters....

 

[CovenantX]

''Garg thrower is way overpowered. Raise their weapon speed so they match archery weapons''

I'm fine with that as long as you give Gargs the ability to Ride an armoured swamp dragon and longer distance throwing

Hopefully this will be addressed with the Armor Updates.

It is a suggestion in the thread : Metal/Plate Armor Ideas, Proposals, and Pitfalls and would remove the one PvM Disadvantage for being a gargoyle.

 

[CovenantX]

Mage Weapon -> Change to Casting Weapon. Lowers ALL casting skills, but takes the highest one as weapon skill.

Mage weapons are one reason I think removing tactics from requiring specials would become less likely to be used (without them being useless)
this idea is interesting, However, not all casting skills have a means of healing, other than Chivalry, Magery, Mysticism.
because of that. I don't see this as necessary

Stone form - Immune to Curses, Poisons, AND State Buffs (magic reflection, protection, bless, strength etc.)

Cursed Weapon, -> Double Life Leech vs Players

The change to stone-form you have listed sounds fair. and would certainly balance it FAR better than it is now.

I like to mess around and pvp with my "wammie" sometimes, but in all honesty I think Curse Weapon is fine the way it is.

Discord/Peace -> Offensive actions when targetting players or pets.

Discord -> Players should be discordable. (Short duration followed by a discord resistant timeframe)

Peace -> vs Players, Reduces damage taken and dealt to target, by up to 90% (Short duration followed by a resistant timeframe)

More random stuff laters....

I'm not so sure about players being discord-able mainly because If you fight a tamer. discording a player may cause one to "Lose their pet completely" which would be a problem.
that being said, the bard mastery spells are significantly useful in group situations mostly Provoke & Peacemaking Mastery, where as Discord mastery is offensive 1 v 1.
(yes I like to pvp with my bard sometimes too)

I couldn't agree more about Discord counting as a "flag-able action" when it comes to discording someones pet. (Provocation currently flags you as an aggressor, or criminal, maybe discord was just overlooked.)

I view it the same as someone flagged in pvp, receiving a cross heal by another person. should flag both of them to the aggressor, as you've mentioned in one of your earlier posts.

 

[Logrus]

For discording players I wouldnt recommend the DIsco cut their skills, just reduce the caps on SDI/HCI/DCI and add a negative hp regen for a time. Maybe reduce resists by up to 3% and stats by up to 10 as well. Just some ideas. Not fully fleshed yet.

(I forgot Chiv, I was pretty much limiting that to Magery/Med/Weaving/Necro. I dont think i'd factor chiv into it. Since it has almost no offensive casting capability.)

 

[Picus at the office]

Any additional -mage type weapons would only add to the already overpowering nature of that mistake. IMO there was no need to give out these extra free skill points and adding more would only make the caster more powerfull. Most other ideas in this thread are great, this is horrid.

Disco-A 3% change in resist would do little to the over all suit. If you make it reduce to less than what curse can do than it would be worthy.

 

[Logrus]

I'm on and off the fence wih using a casting spell defensive capabilities through an item. On one hand it opens up alot of templates, on the other it also removes the drawbacks from alot of really powerful templates.
If there were 0 offensive capabilities on the weapon, (like maybe linking the proc chance of spells and effects to tactics skill) could help offset that.

 

[mspossi]

I Primarily play(ed) UO for pvp for the last 12+ years (not so much before then), and I have recently comeback from a 5-6 month break, (account's were NEVER inactive) and pvp is the same as It was when I left... not good.



My question - Why are these skills still overpowered, and the only skills you see active in pvp anymore ?

it's killing the entire pvp aspect of UO because it lacks creativity and everyone you fight is the same.

Mysticism - Overpowered Defensively : Fix Stoneform + Protection... and cleanse winds needs to be slightly tweaked as well. Imo Remove either the Cure OR the Remove Curse from this spell, and make the spell cast time the same as Magery - Greater Heal (doing this will make cleanse winds a more reliable Mystic heal, that doesn't require you to have magery as a mandatory back-up.

Throwing - Overpowered Offensively : the Damage OR the Speed are in need of reduction.

Poisoning - Overpowered Defensively : Remove the passive Cure effect, if you want this USE ORANGE PETALS.

Archery - <--these were complained about being Overpowered but really weren't too bad... but guess what... they nearly don't exist anymore, because Throwers are in town.

Melee Weapon Skills - Only used because of Disarm, Deathstrike, Nervestrike, & Poisoning : Fix this please?

The damage on most of these weapons need slight adjusting upwards, and two handed weapons need to have at least 30% more damage than its one-handed counterpart. (to make up for the loss of consumables & the loss of stats from an off-hand shield.)


Chivalry - Divine Fury used to restore full stamina, why was this changed ? As a mana-consuming spell it should be as good OR better than a penalty-less Refresh Potion. (making Chivalry more skill level dependable instead of karma dependable was a step in the right direction)


Consumables : people rely too heavily on these items, and some make pvp extremely annoying. increasing potion weight was not an effective solution IMO.

Heal potions - Cooldown Fair = balanced.

Cure potions - no cooldown = *comic bubble* Overpowered! (at least add a cooldown after a successful cure, like apples with their remove curse.)

Refresh Potions - I can't think of why these are overpowered, because any form of dexer really will not survive if they do not have stamina. reliant I know, but this is fair.

Enchanted Apples - 60 second cooldown is not triggered unless a remove curse is successful. fair but it still, nearly lessens the use of having chivalry on your template.

Remove

1) Weapon Special Moves now require Weapon Skill and Tactics of appropriate skill levels.
(i.e., 70 in each skill for primary weapon special moves, 90 in each skill for secondary weapon special moves).


Edit : change the above to require Only weapon skill 70-90+ for primary/secondary as it was pre-publish 46.

2) Players Can no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability

If you do not agree with something I have said in this feel free to point out the flaws in it.

I'm sure there are other things I could suggest, but what kind of things would others like to see added/changed for the better of UOs Pvp?

hello, first of all, I think in general you are right.
well on the other hand make adjustments to the competence of skills makes me hair stand on end.
did this with the ability Hail Storm, and did so well made ​​that practically prevented this skill.
it was so ridiculous, I believe that the book of mysticism now only has 15 spells.
so did archery, someone has realized that both pvp and pvm vampiric ability to practically disappeared?
how you started this as pvp, I have some comments:
every time I resist a killer, almost by magic, the whole guild appears that online, to get revenge; My suggestion is, that has this mechanism for vengeance happens, but rather in a duel in which you can be attacked only one at a time.
before some pkiller manifest, I have no killer char, char only blue, but I defend myself every time I'm attacked.
that's where the problem, pkilles I know has no honor, and when I say everyone I know what I'm talking.
I will not be crying about it when I'm in felucca know what can happen!
once already tired of being assassinated by various killers in the same section; I suggested a struggle honorable self and other in a fight hand to hand, but I'm too dumb, not because others attacked me, but kept jumping on me for fumbling
in another post here, one suggested that gamers make an adjustment in the wind for cleaning because it was disturbing to cast curses.
I do not believe that one should have any advantage a player on another player, not as there is today, especially when it comes to factions.
because I think it's very easy to sit waiting for a group to finish a player spawn to attack, and nowadays it is very difficult to defend a gamers gather spawn.
on the one hand the "blues" that really has experience in the game do not like felucca; or are very young and will be more of a hindrance than a help.

 

[Logrus]

Any additional -mage type weapons would only add to the already overpowering nature of that mistake. IMO there was no need to give out these extra free skill points and adding more would only make the caster more powerfull. Most other ideas in this thread are great, this is horrid.

Disco-A 3% change in resist would do little to the over all suit. If you make it reduce to less than what curse can do than it would be worthy.

(I wouldnt feel so bad if it lowered all the casting skills as well as the skill cap so it cant be compensated with items.)

3% decrease in resists to an all 70's target means they are taking 10% more damage. I guess you could go all the way up to 5% reduction (which is just about 17% damge increase) but I'm thinking as a 0 mana cost ability, used by skill 3% is enough.
Curse itself @ 10% reduction is a 33% damage increase (to everything except physical.)
Curse + Discord would be 13% reduction which would be about 43% damage increase.
And since it would affect physical, you could try out some interesting template choices like a Disco Chiv Dexer or something like that. (Which would also be useful PvM/Champ spawn)
But the HP loss effect, and penalties, would make it a pretty powerful combined effect, hopefully without making it an overpowered effect. Reducing targets offense, and defense slightly (but guaranteed since its affecting Caps) weakening them slightly, causing them to lose a little health over time, and finally making them take more damage. (Death of 10000 paper cuts).
I think thats a safer approach since its not making a huge instant difference. (Say increasing next attack by a crapload of damage, or crippling opponent abilities)

 

[Picus at the office]

I don't think curse is used nearly as often as once before, or at least I don't notice it going off but I play a dex monkey so who knows. I guess that when stacked it would make for a very nasty combo but a apple would reduce it some. All in all it's a heck of a way to add an additional skill that isn't used but for secondary chars for the most part. I'd love to see what it looked like on a necro dexxer.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Paralyze Spell -> Change to 3 seconds Max, Chance to be resisted based on Magic Resist Skill
Following this change -> Paralysis not removed due to self damaging effects.

Mage Weapon -> Change to Casting Weapon. Lowers ALL casting skills, but takes the highest one as weapon skill.

Focus Attack -> Boost Hit chance or Lower the Mana Cost

Stone form - Immune to Curses, Poisons, AND State Buffs (magic reflection, protection, bless, strength etc.)

Cursed Weapon, -> Double Life Leech vs Players

Discord/Peace -> Offensive actions when targetting players or pets.

Discord -> Players should be discordable. (Short duration followed by a discord resistant timeframe)

Peace -> vs Players, Reduces damage taken and dealt to target, by up to 90% (Short duration followed by a resistant timeframe)

Golems -> Bondable!


More random stuff laters....

The problem anytime you talk about things like that in para, are that it caters to having numbers. So those that like to solo play or play in small groups when it comes to pvp would get destroyed. 3 can be a death sentence in pvp.

I personally think mage weps are fine as is. You would not be able to play half the mage temps out there without them because you need too many skills now IE Necro mage is not really playable without one unless you want really really low med to pick up anatomy. Plus there already is a trade off, you can disarm them, which can't be done with wrestle/anat.

I use focus attack a fair amount, I feel it's underrated. However I certainly would not complain if its mana cost was reduced.

I would have no problem with that for stoneform, but I also think that even not in stoneform prot + wind is too good.

Isn't curse weapon already 100% life leech? If so I think 200% could be absurd.

Making people flag for disco/peace would be nice although you don't see too many tamers anymore.

As long as you're not talking about dropping skills with disco, that would again just help those with numbers.
Otherwise I could kind of see that being nice, but bards abilities are pretty amazing right now to be honest.

 

[DankNuggets]

I refer to it as the "tactics patch" and I saw it cripple pvp and pvp variety. Consider template possibilities if tactics was removed for being able to do weapon specials. YES the advantage goes to the mage. However what this tactics for specials did was destroy the variety of templates. I see the same few templates every time I pvp. I'm glad that they made a few skills not require tactics, but really who can argue that templates are MORE diverse now then they were then? Will it fix the pvp? Nah, their isn't enough of a player base to have great pvp anymore. The last time I was out pvping (several months ago) I spent several hours looking for a 10 minute fight. It used to be the other way around.. 10 mins to get a big fight going for hours.

Also people did use tactics when it wasn't required because if you wanted to do 35 dmg Ai's and/or be a half decent dexxer you needed it, just make the damage bonus higher if it's an issue of balance. This would make tactics useful without being required. And hopefully allow for a larger variety of temps that could compete.

Just my 2 cents. I find pvp to be a bit stale and boring these days. But I do venture out from time to time.

 

[Bleak]

This thread has been a great read thus far, combat balance will always be an ongoing task for us. We currently have the armor revamp in the works as well as a re-balancing of all weapons. Details of those changes will be given as they are ready for public testing. Just wanted to poke my head in to let you know that we are listening.

A couple thoughts on the op:

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.
Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.
Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.
Melee Weapon Skills - Two handed weapons will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance and all weapon special moves are subject to change.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

I refer to it as the "tactics patch" and I saw it cripple pvp and pvp variety. Consider template possibilities if tactics was removed for being able to do weapon specials. YES the advantage goes to the mage. However what this tactics for specials did was destroy the variety of templates. I see the same few templates every time I pvp. I'm glad that they made a few skills not require tactics, but really who can argue that templates are MORE diverse now then they were then?...

Also people did use tactics when it wasn't required because if you wanted to do 35 dmg Ai's and/or be a half decent dexxer you needed it, just make the damage bonus higher if it's an issue of balance. This would make tactics useful without being required. And hopefully allow for a larger variety of temps that could compete.

Just my 2 cents. I find pvp to be a bit stale and boring these days. But I do venture out from time to time.

Dank makes some interesting points and I would love to hear more opinions on this subject. My current pet project is really looking into the Weapon special system. Granted I also think tactics could play a bigger role in reducing special move costs, as was stated by others. I've put a lot of thought into 2 in particular and would like to share what I have so far. I give Logrus and Covenant alot of credit for the ideas with their back and forth discussion.

Disarm:

• A successful Disarm leaves the victim unable to re-arm another weapon for 5 seconds.
• Once this effect wears off it cannot be re-applied for 10 seconds.
• This move is exempt from the Tactics requirement when used as an Unarmed (wrestling) special move.

Mortal Strike:

• A successful Mortal Strike will render its victim unable to heal any damage for several seconds.
• Lasts for 6 seconds (player) or 12 seconds (NPC).
• Applying Mortal Strike again within 12 seconds halves the duration. This can repeat, further reducing the duration to 1 second until 12 seconds have passed.
• Does not prevent curing poison or stopping bleeding.

I intend to keep as much of the original text/wording as possible and change as little of the move as needed. I chose this layout as I want people to reflect on what they might think/feel if they saw this in a publish. Please let me know if I am thinking in the right direction and lets keep this discussion going.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

This thread has been a great read thus far, combat balance will always be an ongoing task for us. We currently have the armor revamp in the works as well as a re-balancing of all weapons. Details of those changes will be given as they are ready for public testing. Just wanted to poke my head in to let you know that we are listening.

A couple thoughts on the op:

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.
Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.
Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.
Melee Weapon Skills - Two handed weaponswill be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance and all weapon special moves are subject to change.

You just made me one happy guy Bleak, hopefully we can keep some of these good discussions going and give you guys some more thoughtfully contstructed suggestions. I really have been excited with the level of dialogue the developers have been having with us recently. It does great things for morale.

 

[kelmo]

Keep the discussions civil and the trolling at a minimum and a little respect for others opinions and some damned amazing things may happen.

 

[CovenantX]

This thread has been a great read thus far, combat balance will always be an ongoing task for us. We currently have the armor revamp in the works as well as a re-balancing of all weapons. Details of those changes will be given as they are ready for public testing. Just wanted to poke my head in to let you know that we are listening.

A couple thoughts on the op:

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.
Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.
Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.
Melee Weapon Skills - Two handed weaponswill be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance and all weapon special moves are subject to change.

Good to hear a response from the Devs as always, much appreciated.

I would say about the Archery being tuned upwards to that of throwing might be overpowering a bit (because throwing is pretty overpowering) but, that would highly depend on how the Armor Re-vamp goes.

Again Thanks for the response!

 

[Tzadkiel]

Keep the discussions civil and the trolling at a minimum and a little respect for others opinions and some damned amazing things may happen.

I love you. In the most manly way possible *bro-fists* I did it, I found my inner child and didn't strangle it!

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Good to hear a response from the Devs as always, much appreciated.

I would say about the Archery being turned upwards to that of throwing might be overpowering a bit (because throwing is pretty overpowering) but, that would highly depend on how the Armor Re-vamp goes.

Again Thanks for the response!

This.

Also I would really like to hear if there are any plans for things like tactics/anatomy/healing to reduce the mana cost ? If sticky specials would ever be brought back? Or if the jack of all trades for the mana reduction would be brought back? As people have said each of these patches really drove a lot of pvpers away. I just think about how fun it use to be when there was a lot more diversity.

Again though, thanks for the response bleak.

Oh with the disarm thing with the 5 seconds but then not being able to do it for again for 10. As much as I like that, sometimes some chars just seem to be impossible to hit and it's the only solution. I can't be too bias on this, I would love for my mages to not be disarmed constantly, but then again I could choose to play a wreslte/anat char if I really wanted that. I think it's more players are just annoyed because it can almost be troll pvp, but honestly I am not sure it's a problem like glaves with their base damage/speed/range.

 

[Storm]

This thread has been a great read thus far, combat balance will always be an ongoing task for us. We currently have the armor revamp in the works as well as a re-balancing of all weapons. Details of those changes will be given as they are ready for public testing. Just wanted to poke my head in to let you know that we are listening.

A couple thoughts on the op:

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.
Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.
Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.
Melee Weapon Skills - Two handed weaponswill be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance and all weapon special moves are subject to change.

I think its great you all are looking at all this but I have one request AS I have a ping time to UO servers of 150-200 on a average day due to alter.net I vary rarely do anything with pvp anymore as I just cant compete with a guy who can run on screen hit me 2 or 3 times before I even know he is there!

So my request is when you change these things . if you do make sure how they effect pvm especially when most pvm stuff anymore thats higher end has 50k hit points and is unbardable . I guess what I am saying is dont improve it for one group and ruin it for another.

And before I get flamed I think improving pvp is a great idea its one of the things uo is about. But its not the only thing or even the majority ,

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Oh with the disarm thing with the 5 seconds, but then not being able to do it for again for 10. As much as I like that, sometimes some chars just seem to be impossible to hit and it's the only solution. I can't be too bias on this, I would love for my mages to not be disarmed constantly, but then again I could choose to play a wreslte/anat char if I really wanted that. I think it's more players are just annoyed because it can almost be troll pvp, but honestly I am not sure it's a problem like glaves with their base damage/speed/range.

I understand your opinion, but would just like to explain the direction of the change. You say that sometimes Disarm feels needed to hit people. Disarm still fits that role well, which is good. I also agree whole heartedly that mages have less ground to complain because some choose not to use wrestle/anat; however, when repeatedly used (especially dexxer vs. dexxer) its mechanic quickly becomes abusive and "trollish", like you stated. My line of thinking on the matter is that if a player is disarmed for 5 seconds, it is only reasonable to give them double the amount of time protected from the same mechanic. It creates a more balanced and tactical enviroment if we implement changes along these lines, in my opinion. I also definately agree with your statement on diversity.

Storm - No flames warranted. Your general concern is shared by many (myself included) and I want to assure you that when I think of suggestions/solutions I always try and consider peoples different playstyles. I am confident that Bleak and the other developers will as well. When they talk about re-balancing and bringing things to the current level of play I feel less worried about broad sweeping nerfs that unbalance one aspect of the game, but help another.

 

[yadiman]

Well i haven't really pvp'd in this game since they gave dread lords stat loss, but the main reason i don't pvp today is because it's too hard to kill someone 1v1 unless it's a close fight and both people are just trying to get that last hit in....(and that's not just because i'm a noob -which i am- , but others can't really kill me as well) Maybe splintering weapons have changed things but anyways...

IMO stealthing is ridiculous. Doing a champ spawn with 2 people just knowing that there's 4 stealthers waiting for you is beyond lame. Also it makes escaping combat too easy. I suggest tracking should be improved to be the definite anti-stealther skill. If i have equal tracking to an opponent's stealth, I should automatically be alerted to their presence if they are within name distance. Tracking ranges should also be increased.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Good to hear a response from the Devs as always, much appreciated.

I would say about the Archery being tuned upwards to that of throwing might be overpowering a bit (because throwing is pretty overpowering) but, that would highly depend on how the Armor Re-vamp goes.

Again Thanks for the response!

Are you taking into account that

Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.

comes before

Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.

Archery won't be adjusted to what throwing is now, but to what throwing is adjusted to in the re-balance.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.

Its 1 day after your post and I am still excited about all of it. I just wanted to quickly focus on this one issue and possibly offer a different line of thinking.

Magery changes
Dispell: Attempts to remove a beneficial ward from the Target, chosen randomly. The chance to successfully dispell is determined by a comparison between the Caster's Magery and Evaluating Intelligence skills, the Target's Resisting Spells skill and the level of the beneficial ward.

• Players can be dispelled based off the immunity timer which is calculated off the skills Magery and Evaluating Intelligence vs the targets Resisting Spells skill. (This value range is from 1 to 6 seconds)
• If the target re-applies a dispelled buff or buff that contains a dispelled buff the target can be immediately dispelled of that buff (example: Bless after a Strength dispell)
• Players must have magery and evaluating intelligence close to the level of the spell they are attempting to dispell

Just a quick rough example. I don't think that Dispell should be exactly the same as Purge. Mysticism has less spells, so some uniqueness is also important. My view is that by adding more tactical options to our toolboxes some problems could potentially be mitagated. I am not saying that its the only solution, or that not having enough ways to purge/dispell is the only problem.

On another note I am still putting alot of thought into revamped weapon specials, but would like ask my fellow posters their opinions on some topics. Currently I am trying to change as little of the moves as possible while trying to update/fix them. There are a few moves which I am heavily considering suggesting bigger changes on, like Bladeweave, Concussion Blow, Force of Nature, among a few others.

1. Is my time better spent making tiny adjustment suggestions, instead of contemplating bigger changes?
2. Are there certain mechanics weapon specials should not have? - Example being my rough suggestion on crushing blow removing Stone Form. I fear any sort of dispelling effect might make people run around screaming "The sky is falling!"

I want to make suggestions as balanced and unintrusive to all playstyles. There are a few I think are common sense like Disarm/Mortal, but I realize we all have different opinions.

 

[Basara]

This.
Or if the jack of all trades for the mana reduction would be brought back? As people have said each of these patches really drove a lot of pvpers away. I just think about how fun it use to be when there was a lot more diversity.

In Fairfax, I brought up how the JOAT change had all but eliminated human weapon-using characters (and, how the pre-built-for-300-points Bushido & Ninjitsu templates had compounded it, nearly eliminating non-SE templates, before even factoring in Throwing from SA). With the Elf Mana bonus, playing an elf Samurai or Ninja (or variants thereof, like the Sampire and Whammy) became a no-brainer, as Weapon+Parry+Bushido or Weapon+Stealth+Ninjitsu is guaranteed 300 points toward special moves for a fully trained character. JOAT was what BALANCED things to make humans viable (especially non-SE templates) - until it was removed. It got the team talking among themselves for quite some time....

And, I'm saying this as a PvM-only player - removal of the JOAT effect on special moves crippled non-SE-skill templates for both PvP and PvM.

 

[Cetric]

while on this, i'd just like to throw out there.... remove the 300skill lower mana cost thing for dexer skills.

It ruins template variety. Can you play a straight archer in pvp? no... not with that in place. It makes it so archers are mostly archery/ninja or poison/fencing


Thanks.. i have plenty of other opinions on pvp, but alot are covered and i don't feel like beating a dead horse.

 

[Basara]

Cetric, I disagree -

It was removing human's JOAT ability to get it that ruined the variety, especially in combination with the elf +20 mana.

The elves have the advantage from the mana, even without the cost reduction.

With humans having JOAT count toward special moves as before, it allows a human 120 Archer (or any other 120 weapon skill) to be on equal footing with all the SE-skilled Elves, for special moves, with more template room for MUCH more varied templates.

 

[cazador]

key words (At the AoS Launch), feel like going to Test, and trying it out with the same equipment?

You can still do painspike+double strike, and it won't even half the hp (even if both hits landed on double strike) of most people today?
how would it be overpowered if people were able to do faster as pre-pub 46?

Pay attention..I never said it was OP modern UO I was stating this game works in cycles..I was listing all the OP templates of "their" time! To go along with me stating there "will always" be a gimp OP temp it's just the way it is..the cannot balance everything that's what makes this game unique

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Cetric, I disagree -

It was removing human's JOAT ability to get it that ruined the variety, especially in combination with the elf +20 mana.

The elves have the advantage from the mana, even without the cost reduction.

With humans having JOAT count toward special moves as before, it allows a human 120 Archer (or any other 120 weapon skill) to be on equal footing with all the SE-skilled Elves, for special moves, with more template room for MUCH more varied templates.

I don't outright disagree with you, I just think there could also be other options to consider. If Tactics and/or Anatomy were counted to reduce special moves cost we could potentially see some more variety. I also personally believe the elfs +20 mana is very strong, but many seem to overlook humans passive plus 20 focus and med. Using the mana regen calculator shows that humans focus/med passive slightly edges out gargoyles +2 mana regen, except in the case of non-meddable regen. All the races should be very close, and I think that they mostly are. I would not complain if they made a change to JOAT, just that other changes could make it not necessary.

 

[CovenantX]

Pay attention..I never said it was OP modern UO I was stating this game works in cycles..I was listing all the OP templates of "their" time! To go along with me stating there "will always" be a gimp OP temp it's just the way it is..

I'm well aware about the overpowering Cycles in UO. Which is why I wanted to bring all of this to attention as many others have.

The AoS Launch/transition people have considered a lot of things as being overpowered. some were, some weren't, the itemization in UO has changed drastically at that point. hell, most of the things at the AoS launch, weren't even overpowered because of skills or spells, most were "Bugs" or item properties with no caps on them (no cap on LMC + spells=100% weapon hit which allowed : Stun-punch + lightening x-amount of times ... 1-2 second heals due to no cap on Dex. and so many different equip slots to allow you to increase dex to 200+.) These things have been addressed, they were also not overpowered the same way Mysticism currently is.

the cannot balance everything that's what makes this game unique

I wouldn't say this game is unique because of imbalances, every game has them, Which wouldn't make it unique at all...
but that doesn't mean they can't make it Balanced. Obviously, it's hard to achieve balance, at the same time it is not impossible.

Character Creation (templates/uses) is what makes this game unique (for me), along with "sand-box" (no specific path you are required to take, just to progress). among other things.

PvP is still more fun in UO, than any other MMOs I have ever played.. (it's the only one that feels like player-skill makes the biggest difference)

 

[cazador]

I'm well aware about the overpowering Cycles in UO. Which is why I wanted to bring all of this to attention as many others have.

The AoS Launch/transition people have considered a lot of things as being overpowered. some were, some weren't, the itemization in UO has changed drastically at that point. hell, most of the things at the AoS launch, weren't even overpowered because of skills or spells, most were "Bugs" or item properties with no caps on them (no cap on LMC + spells=100% weapon hit which allowed : Stun-punch + lightening x-amount of times ... 1-2 second heals due to no cap on Dex. and so many different equip slots to allow you to increase dex to 200+.) These things have been addressed, they were also not overpowered the same way Mysticism currently is.



I wouldn't say this game is unique because of imbalances, every game has them, Which wouldn't make it unique at all...
but that doesn't mean they can't make it Balanced. Obviously, it's hard to achieve balance, at the same time it is not impossible.

Character Creation (templates/uses) is what makes this game unique (for me), along with "sand-box" (no specific path you are required to take, just to progress). among other things.

PvP is still more fun in UO, than any other MMOs I have ever played.. (it's the only one that feels like player-skill makes the biggest difference)

Player skill makes a huge difference..it's the only reason I still play this game..great example last night we were fighting a bunch of blue/oj groups..btw being in a pk only guild that's still hilarious with the stat bugs..but I digress I got statted by 3 blues an an oj offered to duel in stat and won..lol only in UO can u see skill based pvp like that!

..another note I don't think the AOS era necro Axer was bugged..pain spike did too much damage that was the issue..I agree someone with an all 70's 100lrc suit was king at the beginning..tbh I miss those days of non stop doom/blood eles farming trying to perfect your suit..now I just sit in my house and make it in an hr max once I've compiled my spreadsheet

 

[Cetric]

This thread has been a great read thus far, combat balance will always be an ongoing task for us. We currently have the armor revamp in the works as well as a re-balancing of all weapons. Details of those changes will be given as they are ready for public testing. Just wanted to poke my head in to let you know that we are listening.

A couple thoughts on the op:

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.
Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.
Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.
Melee Weapon Skills - Two handed weaponswill be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance and all weapon special moves are subject to change.

Bleak - just wanted to point out, granted throwers are powerful because of speed to damage ratio, and lack of the need for Balance on the weaps, but one of their greatest hidden gems is 50% hit chance for gargoyles vs. 45% for all humans. Probably could use "looked at" as well

 

[Cetric]

Cetric, I disagree -

It was removing human's JOAT ability to get it that ruined the variety, especially in combination with the elf +20 mana.

The elves have the advantage from the mana, even without the cost reduction.

With humans having JOAT count toward special moves as before, it allows a human 120 Archer (or any other 120 weapon skill) to be on equal footing with all the SE-skilled Elves, for special moves, with more template room for MUCH more varied templates.

Well yea, i agree the joat nerf is what nuked it, but you have to consider when that happened you only had humans and elves. Now there are 3 races with racial abilities. If joat was changed back to the way it was, then everyone on gargoyles would complain.

 

[Berethrain]

Bleak - just wanted to point out, granted throwers are powerful because of speed to damage ratio, and lack of the need for Balance on the weaps, but one of their greatest hidden gems is 50% hit chance for gargoyles vs. 45% for all humans. Probably could use "looked at" as well

This ^ A 1000X THIS.

This advantage skews the RNG. Thus giving gargoyles a mathematical advantage. I won't ever 1 vs 1 a throwing gargoyle again, lose everytime.

 

[cazador]

This ^ A 1000X THIS.

This advantage skews the RNG. Thus giving gargoyles a mathematical advantage. I won't ever 1 vs 1 a throwing gargoyle again, lose everytime.

Throwers are easy to take down with apples and pots..the issue that I've been seeing is this new gimp temp I've seen it rarely maybe like 2-3 specific people..dp throwers who chain poison with surikens..chain nox+mortal+ai unless u run you won't live or get in a spell edgewise don't care how good you think u are..

 

[CovenantX]

Throwers are easy to take down with apples and pots..the issue that I've been seeing is this new gimp temp I've seen it rarely maybe like 2-3 specific people..dp throwers who chain poison with surikens..chain nox+mortal+ai unless u run you won't live or get in a spell edgewise don't care how good you think u are..

Anything with Poisoning is rough, but poison from the Ninja-stars & Darts,(at least for me) always seem to cure successfully on the first try with magery normal-cure... (maybe I'm lucky)

I'd assume cure pots work 100% of the time on poison from these items. What I do know, is you don't need poisoning to land a DP with these stars/darts either... you only need 50+ ninja or bushido to use them, and your chance to hit with them scale with ninjitsu/bushido.


Poisons chance to cure has been adjusted the same way (in terms of difficulty to cure) it was last time at least two times before, except this time they felt it was necessary to give poisoning (on top of the amazing offensive power it has) a passive free cure, it probably doesn't work as intended, but regardless I wish the free cure was removed.

People were complaining about chugging 5-15 Cure potions, to get ONE successful cure from DP, this tells me it's slightly op, Which is why I think all interrupt-able methods of curing should work at the best chances (maybe not 100% spell or bandage) should always have better chances to cure than Cure Potions.

Before poisoning received the last improvements people who had it complained about it being too easy to cure (it didn't last long enough, to make poisoning worth having) this is the reason I always bring up Cure potions as the main problem.

IMO the easiest way to balance poisoning would be:

Poisoning skill - Remove the free cure.
Poison Cure chance - 100% success with spells & bandages (these are Interrupt-able/Delayed) at 200.0/2 = 100% 200.0 Mysticism+Focus, Magery+Eval-Int, and Healing+Anatomy
chivalry - could scale 100.0+ = 100% cure. (I'm not so sure if karma currently plays a role in this anymore)
Greater Cure potions - 50% Base chance to cure DP/LP 5-10 second cooldown (Cooldown only starts after a successful cure). lower level cure potions = lower success & shorter cooldown (like heal potions)
Adding in 50% EP from items would set your base chance to cure at 75% with (G-Cure-pots).

Alchemy - Increases EP cap to 100% and passively increases potions by an additional 50%, this would set your chance to cure with Greater Cure Potions to 100% success cooldown would balance the cure.
Orange Petals - leave as is. atleast these can wear off or Break (from DP). maybe these might become valuable if such a change would be made.

This is very similar to the way Apples worked then/now. when they use to have a 15 second cooldown, necromancy spells were really close to useless vs Anyone who had & used enchanted apples.
Now apples are still probably the best consumable item for pvp. but they are actually well balanced with the current cooldown...

changes like this wouldn't remove value from Enhance Pots on items, or devalue the alchemy skill. although with 100% enhance potions (EP+Alchemy) some of the "damaging" potions might need additional adjustments.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Anything with Poisoning is rough, but poison from the Ninja-stars & Darts,(at least for me) always seem to cure successfully on the first try with magery normal-cure... (maybe I'm lucky)

I'd assume cure pots work 100% of the time on poison from these items. What I do know, is you don't need poisoning to land a DP with these stars/darts either... you only need 50+ ninja or bushido to use them, and your chance to hit with them scale with ninjitsu/bushido.


Poisons chance to cure has been adjusted the same way (in terms of difficulty to cure) it was last time at least two times before, except this time they felt it was necessary to give poisoning (on top of the amazing offensive power it has) a passive free cure, it probably doesn't work as intended, but regardless I wish the free cure was removed.

People were complaining about chugging 5-15 Cure potions, to get ONE successful cure from DP, this tells me it's slightly op, Which is why I think all interrupt-able methods of curing should work at the best chances (maybe not 100% spell or bandage) should always have better chances to cure than Cure Potions.

Before poisoning received the last improvements people who had it complained about it being too easy to cure (it didn't last long enough, to make poisoning worth having) this is the reason I always bring up Cure potions as the main problem.

IMO the easiest way to balance poisoning would be:

Poisoning skill - Remove the free cure.
Poison Cure chance - 100% success with spells & bandages (these are Interrupt-able/Delayed) at 200.0/2 = 100% 200.0 Mysticism+Focus, Magery+Eval-Int, and Healing+Anatomy
chivalry - could scale 100.0+ = 100% cure. (I'm not so sure if karma currently plays a role in this anymore)
Greater Cure potions - 50% Base chance to cure DP/LP 5-10 second cooldown (Cooldown only starts after a successful cure). lower level cure potions = lower success & shorter cooldown (like heal potions)
Adding in 50% EP from items would set your base chance to cure at 75% with (G-Cure-pots).

Alchemy - Increases EP cap to 100% and passively increaes potions by an additional 50%, this would set your chance to cure with Greater Cure Potions to 100% success cooldown would balance the cure.
Orange Petals - leave as is. atleast these can wear off or Break (from DP). maybe these might become valuable if such a change would be made.

This is very similar to the way Apples worked then/now. when they use to have a 15 second cooldown, necromancy spells were really close to useless vs Anyone who had & used enchanted apples.
Now apples are still probably the best consumable item for pvp. but they are actually well balanced with the current cooldown...

changes like this wouldn't remove value from Enhance Pots on items, or devalue the alchemy skill. although with 100% enhance potions (EP+Alchemy) some of the "damaging" potions might need additional adjustments.

On the ninja stars/darts, they changed it so if you don't have poisoning even if the star/dart is DP'd it will only inflicts a level based on your poisoning. So if you don't have any its a level 1 or 2. When you throw them it's your ninja vs their fighting skill (mage wep, fighting skilling ect..). Also I think a reason why it would seem easier to cure is that stars/darts can not go past level 4 poison. So you would have a higher % since it would never be level 5.

 

[Arrgh]

I'm sorry but i just have to troll the original topic and not the content. Isn't PvP all about attention?? *drum and cymbal crash* Seriously though there are a lot of good points in this thread. I know this won't go over but I'd PvP a lot more like in the 'good ol days' if we could have a normal mage chain cast and leave the other schools at their current rates.

 

[DankNuggets]

A quick suggestion about curing and cure potions. Bring back the old EP bug. The higher your EP the harder to cure poison. That was a balanced bug actually. 75EP ring (before was put to 50) would have a harder chance to cure poison. It didn't make sense in terms of gameplay but it made poisoning and potions kind of balanced. People without EP cured fine, but those with EP struggled. Proof is how many guys I killed that literally had kegs of cures on them. I ran a nox ninja fencer with chiv was a lot of fun.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Its obvious many people are passionate about poisoning amongst other issues. I also mostly agree with Logrus that poisoning finally feels close to being "finished". I personally would be hesitant to make any significat changes, however there is some room for comprimises that seem reasonable.

Changing skills cure chance to be close to guaranteed or guaranteed (especially magery/chiv interruptible ones) seems fair, it rewards the players making more skilled tactical decisions. Aside from that I would maybe suggest raising the cost of Infectious Strike slightly. For many it only costs 3-6 mana, which can become an extremely frustrating play experience when applied effortlessly back to back.

The most important points in my opinion is not to buff any sort of consumable (cure pots should be a gamble) or take anything away from poisoning. If we buff cure chance for skills (which seems fair) and then take anything away from poisoning (nerfs are not fun) you will be hitting the same skill twice. People will just go back to not using it and we don't want that. When possible we should always be looking for ways to balance by improving, a rough example being: Skilled cure chances are now 100%, the poisoning passive has been increased. Often we need a little more give and take, as opposed to just take.

 

[Logrus]

I think JOAT was not the best way to handle things, and removing it was a good idea. The whole point of JOAT was so templates that invested more in combat skills, would still be effective even though they had less to allocate to things like med and focus.

​

Now I think part of the issues is the way special moves were implemented making them cost mana instead of stamina, which effectively made dexers more like mages. (ie like pre AoS hybrids). Unfortunately without some change to stamina (refresh pots/ divine fury), too easy to spam specials endlessly.​

​

I think it would be more appropriate to lower the cost of the special abilities associated with those skills, based on the skill points invested in them. (Though in the case of bushido, I think the mana cost is fine, but the abilities themselves need to be adjusted so that more than lightning strike is effective) Ninjitsu specials could use mana reduction and some adjustment.

I think specials brought potential for more tactics in dexer PvP, unfortunately, its more of a special spamfest than a tactical application, which kinda sucks. Adjust meant to weapons, specials and abilities could probably help to do this, and I think that would go along way to not only improving PvP, but making it much more fun and engaging.

 

[Logrus]

I think tactics are very important for special moves. Its similar to the support skill for the casting schools. You can play a mage without evalint, but it becomes entirely defensive. In this way you can go with weapon skill, and no tactics and it remains defensive.
I'd be more for buffing the effects of tactics than removing the requirements of tactics. Pre-tactics requirements there was a wider variety of templates, but rather than a wide variety of competitive templates, it made a small variety of extremely OP templates that didn't really offer any "tactical" aspect other than execute these 3 specials. in this order combined with this weapon and your target is dead, failing this run away.

In the case of many abilities in the game, I'd say the issue with balancing is that there is not much effectiveness scaling with skill. Many spells and specials are usable with full potential at a set skill level, once you achieve it you get full benefits. This is where alot of the problem templates come in, which take advantage of only meeting those minimum requirements.
If the abilities scaled, so they were weaker at the minimums and got stronger with skill investment, a character template, would be a reflection of not just what they can do, but how well they can do it.