Discussion: Professional Crafters - The Missing Class

[Podolak]

I remember back in 1999 there were what I would call "Professional Crafters". They were individuals who spent the majority of their time at the smithy in Britain providing services such as repairing armor/weapons for people and taking armor/weapons orders. However, over time most of us made our own crafters and the need for these professional crafters diminished. When what was fun for them in game disappeared so did they. Some of these folks left the game all together, others pursued other interests.

For many years there have been cries of people saying things along the lines of making crafting a viable and profitable profession again. Eventually they implemented imbuing and reforging. It seems that UO once again created the opportunity for the professional crafter class to re-emerge. The thing is, now that the opportunity is here where are they? Has anyone with any real interest in this class completely left the game? Or is it that imbuing/reforging is so complicated/expensive no one is willing to do it?

I've made and remade several high end suits as the changes came out. When imbuing came out I spent considerable time and money remaking suits for all of my characters. When reforging came out I spent even more time and only made suits for my main characters. By time I mean I have likely spent hundreds of real human hours either obtaining resources or crafting the actual items. It can take a day of making base pieces just to get the right roll on the resists. Now with reforging you are taking a gamble that the base piece will get desirable mods.

Besides the investing in actual crafting there is also the competitive advantage. People tweak their suits and spend time in spreadsheets to maximize their effectiveness. They actually test things out and see what works, what is worth having and in what amounts. Many of these people are PvPers who don't want their enemies to have a direct benefit of their efforts.

My point? I am not sure there is one besides missing the people of the professional crafter class. It is time consuming enough when you make something for someone and they tell you exactly what they need on it. i.e. "I need a ring with 15 HCI, 15 DCI, 25 DI, 25 EP and the rest in dex" But I do have a laugh when someone says: "I need an awesome pvp mage suit maxed out. Whoever has the best price I don't want to get taken". Realistically it costs millions upon millions of gold to make something like that and that is not counting the crafter's time. These posts always inevitably go un-answered or someone ends up trolling the original poster. I wish we did have a bustling crafter class again as some of these players probably end up just giving up on the game instead of investing the time into doing it themselves. How do we make crafting a profitable endeavor? I think that is a question to anyone who wants to see Ultima thrive.

Thanks for reading,


~Podolak

 

[NuSair]

I think that people being tight lipped about how they make their suits hurts.

I also think that they look at what happened to sampires and realize that if how they came to their uberness, that if publicly known, that it would be nerfed. So they just keep it to themselves.

 

[Podolak]

I also think that they look at what happened to sampires and realize that if how they came to their uberness, that if publicly known, that it would be nerfed.

I think the nerf statement is an excellent point.

 

[Joey Porter]

I agree.

I was one of those who used to have a full time crafter back when UO launched. Loved it, but things were simple back them. GM or not, less weapon classes etc.

When I came back almost a year ago I created a PvM character and then a crafter as soon as I could. I know have a very good crafter and use him to make items for my other characters but crafting the truly uber pieces is so hard and confusing that I am hesitant to take orders from even my guild as I am worried I may not be able to deliver.

I am a guy of above average intelligence, do well at work, and have read pretty much the ENTIRE crafting forum on this site but still do not understand how to get the uber suits with reforing, what base pieces are good etc.

IMO anything that requires multiple spreadsheets, calculators, hours of real time trial and error/testing is not a game but a Job.

Now I still spend hours making and tweaking items for myself because I think it is fun, but I know I am not taking full advantage of what I could be doing mainly because it is difficult to understand.

 

[Prince Erik]

I agree.

I was one of those who used to have a full time crafter back when UO launched. Loved it, but things were simple back them. GM or not, less weapon classes etc.

When I came back almost a year ago I created a PvM character and then a crafter as soon as I could. I know have a very good crafter and use him to make items for my other characters but crafting the truly uber pieces is so hard and confusing that I am hesitant to take orders from even my guild as I am worried I may not be able to deliver.

I am a guy of above average intelligence, do well at work, and have read pretty much the ENTIRE crafting forum on this site but still do not understand how to get the uber suits with reforing, what base pieces are good etc.

IMO anything that requires multiple spreadsheets, calculators, hours of real time trial and error/testing is not a game but a Job.

Now I still spend hours making and tweaking items for myself because I think it is fun, but I know I am not taking full advantage of what I could be doing mainly because it is difficult to understand.

^THIS! In giving us all the choices we have (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) the game is so much more complicated that many professional crafters (like me) could not adapt. I still make all my own stuff but still get laughed at for my equipment because it's not uber. I haven't used reforging and have no intentions of doing so... I've done the best I can but I just can't dedicate my life to learning such a complicated system.

-PE

 

[The Predator]

I have to say, after all these years, based on the fact that you can make such unique templates, and unique suits to follow in suit (no pun intended), this has been one of my favorite hobbies in UO.

But, I would have to agree -- I have several unique templates and setups that I do not like to share, so I understand why others try to keep it such as a closely guided secret. And, it does get somewhat frustrating investing so much time, effort, and money, trying to keep up with the times an updates the game has to offer --- First it was runic crafting, then imbuing, then reforging. Plus, you have to account for the numerous new items that come into play, which can totally cause for a re-build of a suit.

However, people are resistant to change, so it is normal.

But, it would be nice to put in a player based "custom order system" -- I am thinking similar to what was implemented with Maginica: people can request the type of item they are looking for in terms of modifications and offer a price, and crafters could provide them (whether it is runic, imbue, or reforge) and claim the gold once provided. I think this would provide some additional incentive to a more professional style crafter being active as a main character, as opposed to an assist or mule character.

 

[Coldren]

Crafting is something I feel pretty strongly about myself. It's hard for me to articulate my response to this, but here goes:

1) It's too easy to skill up. Because it's so easy, anyone with an extra slot can make a damn fine crafting mule inside of a week with only a minor effort. If it required a more significant investment of time or resources, it might not be so common. Unfortunately, that genie is already out of the bottle. I remember back pre-Tram days, it was hard to get the ingots you needed to skill up because PK's would farm miners pretty frequently with ease, and if you didn't mine, you had to survive them long enough to farm gold to buy ingots from other players (or the PK's that killed them) or the NPC's as they spawned in small quantities. That had a lot to do with population density at the time, because there were more players in a smaller space, to say nothing of the impact of Tram.

2) Repair deeds. You don't even need to be online to fix things anymore. Even those aren't really needed these days, because of point 1.

3) Imbuing also has a lot to do with it. It's not that I don't like Imbuing, I love it. The problem is, by and large, a crafter is largely handicapped if he doesn't have Imbuing. They can still do quite a bit in most cases, but the advantage to having it is more than apparent. But how are Imbuing materials acquired? PvE - Either to gather gold to buy them from players, or farm them yourself. That's more time a crafter isn't being a crafter.

If you want to go to a place that exemplifies all this, go to Siege. You know the crafters by name, and when they are on, you grab them as quickly as you can if you need something you can't find on the vendors. The one character limit impacts this a lot, because to get around it can be quite costly, either with another account, or soulstones, or time to farm gold to buy tokens or soulstone fragments from other players (which are a rare find because, that's right, they're made by crafters and also have a fairly rare PvE acquired resource).

As with all things, the problems with crafting aren't the ideas behind them in and of themselves, but how they're implemented. Why be a crafter all the time when you don't have to, and for the most part, isn't required or encouraged? If they want the crafters back, you have to cater to the playstyle, and not force them into other playstyles to fulfill their roles.

Some radical ideas I think would help would put crafters back in demand again would be to make PoF's a Verite LBoD (Ringmail or Chain, not Plate) or Valorite sBoD reward, making them incredibly rare or valuable. Then take away repair deeds. Reduce durability by at least 25% across the board.

A really big change would be to review the interdependency between PvE and crafters. I think crafters depend on PvE way too much, and PvE doesn't depend on crafting enough. I'd say, instead of making loot drop in dungeons that's far better than anything that could be crafted, make it so the very best can only be made BY crafters, but the materials are acquired through drops, and the very best has a lower durability than average. HOWEVER, to break the complete dependency of crafters on PvE, make it so that doing things related to crafting, such as turning in BoD's or some kind of collection turn-ins, can also have a chance to reward crafters with some of those materials.

That's my humble 2 GP.

 

[Podolak]

But, it would be nice to put in a player based "custom order system" -- I am thinking similar to what was implemented with Maginica: people can request the type of item they are looking for in terms of modifications and offer a price, and crafters could provide them (whether it is runic, imbue, or reforge) and claim the gold once provided. I think this would provide some additional incentive to a more professional style crafter being active as a main character, as opposed to an assist or mule character.

This is an excellent idea. I know people who would pay a million + for just a GM made base piece with the resists in the order they need. If they could put an order into the system almost any crafter in the game could take a crack at it. Even newish crafters at GM+ skill could fill the order with a sewing kit (assuming we are talking about leather armor) and plain leather. Beyond that specific custom reforged pieces would get a lot of posts too I'd imagine and hopefully some crafters could fill some orders.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I've happily crafted imbued suits, provided they're simple and doable. but the math of creating an uber suit is just beyond me. I read a thread in Atlantic Trade this morning and had no idea if what the poster was asking for was possible or whether he was asking for the moon. I can cope with 'Can you make me a light archer suit?' I can cope with 'can you make me a barbed lrc suit, all 70s' but much past that and I'm stuck.

 

[Lady Storm]

I'm with Petra on this one...
I have from day 2 had a set of crafters who did just as the OP said.... the evolution of UO knocked a great deal of us off the grid. My fav thing it to create.... I get uptight that my mind has trouble doing the sheere mathmatics of the new suits... its alot ot wrap your head around! My son has a better grasp of it. These days the items needed to do alot of this is not too hard but time consuming to gather... you need fighters to kill for some, patience for other things and skill to get others... Its not just iron ingots anymore...
Dont get me wrong... I love to craft. I just wish it was back to the 1999 days sometimes......
Mesanna I could use oh 200 more skill points for just my crafter plz... *grumbles about too much to do and not enough skill room to do it in*

 

[Podolak]

RE: Faction Arties:

Most people I know, friend and foe have transitioned to non-faction arties in their suit or a remake of their suit where swapping for non-faction arties didn't work. However, we've all stuck WITH factions. Factions of course is another topic entirely so I won't go crazy with a post about it. What I see used most is the faction crimson. Dexxers and Parry Mages need every possible stat point available so they are willing to fork over the crazy silver to get it. I even used my Scroll of Valiant Commendation on my dexer even though I'd rather have my mages name on it just because the extra stat room is that much more important to that template.

 

[Picus at the office]

People have shared lots of information when it came to older sampire suits. Reforging is still such an void and the RNG hurts to collect effective information such that you can preplan a suit well. I've love to see more light for this as I think it would help the player base loads more than currently.

 

[NuSair]

I just haven't had the time or desire to test out reforging other than making uber luck suits. Or I would share.

 

[Hell's Ironworks]

Great read altogheter.

I was thinking about the fact that all the trades we have in game are way under used as far as house constructions. Why not have all the building pieces as craftables, that one would have to buy , then add to an empty building menu.

As far as making and selling armor and weps, IMO, too much offer not enough demand, + at the prices people would be willing to pay , all things being equal, i have to price at a loss. On 30 val charges ( or 15 reforged items ) if i dont get 1 major item i can cover the prices of the hammers with, ill be selling everything under cost...In all these years i have spent much more gold crafting than i have made selling. hundreds of millions in the red.

 

[the 4th man]

I remember back in 1999 there were what I would call "Professional Crafters". They were individuals who spent the majority of their time at the smithy in Britain providing services such as repairing armor/weapons for people and taking armor/weapons orders. However, over time most of us made our own crafters and the need for these professional crafters diminished. When what was fun for them in game disappeared so did they. Some of these folks left the game all together, others pursued other interests.

For many years there have been cries of people saying things along the lines of making crafting a viable and profitable profession again. Eventually they implemented imbuing and reforging. It seems that UO once again created the opportunity for the professional crafter class to re-emerge. The thing is, now that the opportunity is here where are they? Has anyone with any real interest in this class completely left the game? Or is it that imbuing/reforging is so complicated/expensive no one is willing to do it?

I've made and remade several high end suits as the changes came out. When imbuing came out I spent considerable time and money remaking suits for all of my characters. When reforging came out I spent even more time and only made suits for my main characters. By time I mean I have likely spent hundreds of real human hours either obtaining resources or crafting the actual items. It can take a day of making base pieces just to get the right roll on the resists. Now with reforging you are taking a gamble that the base piece will get desirable mods.

Besides the investing in actual crafting there is also the competitive advantage. People tweak their suits and spend time in spreadsheets to maximize their effectiveness. They actually test things out and see what works, what is worth having and in what amounts. Many of these people are PvPers who don't want their enemies to have a direct benefit of their efforts.

My point? I am not sure there is one besides missing the people of the professional crafter class. It is time consuming enough when you make something for someone and they tell you exactly what they need on it. i.e. "I need a ring with 15 HCI, 15 DCI, 25 DI, 25 EP and the rest in dex" But I do have a laugh when someone says: "I need an awesome pvp mage suit maxed out. Whoever has the best price I don't want to get taken". Realistically it costs millions upon millions of gold to make something like that and that is not counting the crafter's time. These posts always inevitably go un-answered or someone ends up trolling the original poster. I wish we did have a bustling crafter class again as some of these players probably end up just giving up on the game instead of investing the time into doing it themselves. How do we make crafting a profitable endeavor? I think that is a question to anyone who wants to see Ultima thrive.

Thanks for reading,


~Podolak

Well, I miss a real hemi Cuda. Made of metal, chrome bumpers and all that stuff, but guess what?? It's not coming back.
The only thing that stays the same is change. Hey, I remember those days but, as fate would have it......the developers have heeded to the whims of the masses.

Ultima Online went down the toilet. Mind you, it still has a uniqueness that no other game can touch, but, it's all "items, items, items", and "gimmie, gimmie, gimmie" Come on, seriously, millions for an item off some greedy dorks vendor?? Please.

The only ones purchasing suits off vendors either have no crafter or no time.

 

[startle]

.....Loved it, but things were simple back them....crafting the truly uber pieces is so hard and confusing that I am hesitant to take orders from even my guild as I am worried I may not be able to deliver..... I am a guy of above average intelligence, do well at work, and have read pretty much the ENTIRE crafting forum on this site but still do not understand how to get the uber suits with reforging, what base pieces are good etc.... IMO anything that requires multiple spreadsheets, calculators, hours of real time trial and error/testing is not a game but a Job..... I know I am not taking full advantage of what I could be doing mainly because it is difficult to understand.

Yes... WAY too difficult for the "average" player...

 

[MalagAste]

I think there are a lot of good things in this thread. I agree that part of what killed crafters is the repair deeds...

Another thing is there are now 7 slots on every shard so.... if you didn't have room for one before I'm sure you do now. Most folk have their own crafter... the few who don't have someone they know.

I agree about suits and prices and the complications. We've had several folk return to the GL RP community recently and I try my best to make them what passes for a decent suit.. but I'm not about to outfit someone with Folded Steel glasses, or Mace and Shields, + Crimsons/Tangles, Sashes... Totems are a bit easier now with the T-Hunting Orbs but even that is a lot of time spent gathering and hunting and what-not... One thing I do now is make folk go out and farm me back some of the resources... Boura Pelts especially. It's like Ok I'll make you this suit but I expect to have 120 of these things dropped in my box in the next couple of weeks.

I go totally bonkers trying to calculate up all 70's with whatever ...... and this one wants plate and that one wants Samurai armor... etc... My brain is cooked. I come home and play UO to relax not work. And my brain is on overdrive all day at work I kinda like to shut it down some when I get home. The less thinkery the better.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I'm inclined to think that what killed the smith at the forge wasn't the repair deeds so much as what made them necessary. The increasing number of scammers impersonating reputable smiths to cheat people out of their weapons and armour.

 

[Tanivar]

The main reason full time crafters got bored and left? There's not much that sells. Most people get a set of gear, PoF it way up, Insure it, and rarely if ever need anything new unless their insurance screws up and they lose something.

This is the number one reason I've moved my main gameplay to Siege. Once I get trained up and set up a shop to make things in, I'll be able to set up vendors that I'll, actually, have, to, restock... wow!... actually have to craft stuff to restock with... It's going to be much more fun than restocking a couple containers and a chair once every couple of weeks because someone redecorated their house and needed something they didn't already have.

A Crafter likes to craft, not just check a few dozen vendors each day that rarely need to have anything restocked. On Siege, gear will have to be replaced.

 

[kelmo]

Today I bought a nice imbued suit, a table, some smoke bombs and a cookie on Siege.

 

[Tanivar]

I'm inclined to think that what killed the smith at the forge wasn't the repair deeds so much as what made them necessary. The increasing number of scammers impersonating reputable smiths to cheat people out of their weapons and armour.

The best thing to do is use a Crafter that is in a private guild. While the character name can be copied, the guild name can't be.

There is only one Crafter named Landreu bearing the guild name Gathering of Shamans. It's my Guild.

 

[Tanivar]

Today I bought a nice imbued suit, a table, some smoke bombs and a cookie on Siege.

You had to mention cookies... and I'm out of Pecan Sandies. Time for a run to the corner store. I need a fix.

 

[popps]

How do we make crafting a profitable endeavor? I think that is a question to anyone who wants to see Ultima thrive.

How ?

I have been saying it now for years, there is only one answer, IMHO, to your question, and that is get rid of mules.....

As long as players can be self sufficient and use "their" crafters to supply their fighters there can be no hope, IMHO, in Ultima Online, for crafters as a viable profession.

How to achieve that ?

At the point we are now, with 7 slots on production shards I can only think as a solution to introduce CAPs for accounts where on the same shard if the account excels on fighting skills then the crafting skills can only go up to average level (say 70 or 75 points in any given crafting skill maxed out at 100 or 80/90 with crafting skills maxed out at 120) or vice versa only with fighting skills be capped at average numbers for those accounts where players on a given shard prefer to excel on crafting.

Want to play both a fighter AND a crafter with that one account ? Do it on different shards, i.e. excel fighting skills on Shard A and crafting skills on Shard B, sorry, cannot have both on the same one shard using the same one account.......

This way, a player with 1 account would still be able to play all styles, only not on the same one shard AND we would have crafting back as a viable profession.....
I should also add, to my opinion, no item points to boost crafting skills, crafting skills points should all be real......

As I see it, crafting should be the realm of those players who really enjoy playing a crafier, not just a "tool" to merely provide what one's own fighter needs......

That's how I see it.

 

[Llewen]

This is a very interesting discussion. Let me first say, I love the crafting system in UO. I love it's complexity. I love the fact that it's a challenge. I love tweaking and trying to get that perfect piece. And before I go any further, I'm going to plug an amazing tool made by Pinco, the creator of Pinco's UI, that has received far less attention than it has deserved.

UO Template Editor

Once you figure it out, and it isn't that difficult to figure out, it makes creating suits much easier, and much more fun.

Having said all that, I fully understand much of what has been said here. A friend of mine gave me a vet reward house teleporter set, and asked me if I could make a suit for that. She did have a couple of good pieces already to build around, an orny and a quiver of infinity - this was for an archer. She also had some specific strange requests, she wanted a certain look. I sold the teleporter set for 35 mil, built the suit for her, and came in just barely under budget. The suit is decent, but not great, but ok considering the restrictions she put on it. But when you include the orny, that suit cost around 50 mil, and it was by no means a high end suit.

I won't build a truly high end suit for anyone as a crafter. I craft reasonably good suits for my own characters, but I won't go to that kind of trouble for anyone else. It's not that I don't enjoy it, it's just that when it comes to a truly high end suit, you could easily spend a solid month, and a billion in gold to make it. That is just too rich for my blood, both in terms of time and gold. I don't have that kind of gold, or that kind of patience, and I don't want to spend that much of someone else's gold, and risk them not absolutely loving the end result.

 

[LordDrago]

I agree.

I was one of those who used to have a full time crafter back when UO launched. Loved it, but things were simple back them. GM or not, less weapon classes etc.

When I came back almost a year ago I created a PvM character and then a crafter as soon as I could. I know have a very good crafter and use him to make items for my other characters but crafting the truly uber pieces is so hard and confusing that I am hesitant to take orders from even my guild as I am worried I may not be able to deliver.

I am a guy of above average intelligence, do well at work, and have read pretty much the ENTIRE crafting forum on this site but still do not understand how to get the uber suits with reforing, what base pieces are good etc.

IMO anything that requires multiple spreadsheets, calculators, hours of real time trial and error/testing is not a game but a Job.

Now I still spend hours making and tweaking items for myself because I think it is fun, but I know I am not taking full advantage of what I could be doing mainly because it is difficult to understand.

agreed

 

[Llewen]

I am afraid that discussions like this will lead to a dumbing down process which removes the fun from what is the most challenging and interesting crafting system that I know of in any MMO. In my opinion part of the issue here, which does need to be dealt with, is an economy that has been destroyed by the recent tidal wave of duping. What this has done is inflated prices to the point where only those who already have lots of gold and desirable items to sell can easily afford to engage fully in what really is a wonderful crafting system.

I'm not sure how that cat can be put back in the bag, but dumbing down UO's amazing crafting system is not the answer.

 

[Doubleplay]

I would love to create some uber suits for sale on my vendor, but since people do not need suits all the time, those suits may languish awhile before a sale. Vendor fees absolutely keep me from offering a range of suits at a reasonable price. Pricing is impossible when you have no control over the time an item will remain on a vendor. So for me, vendor mechanics are the major reason my crafters only work for me.

 

[Tanivar]

I'm not sure how that cat can be put back in the bag, but dumbing down UO's amazing crafting system is not the answer.

Dumbing down the crafting system is not the solution.

Making it necessary and affordable is the solution.

There needs to be some counter to PoF and Insurance added to the game. As it stands now, gear lasts for years and doesn't need to be replaced, maybe an occasional upgrade for the powergamers due to latest new feature added in by a dungeon upgrade. What can't be lost or used up doesn't need to be crafted. There needs to be a way to lose gear while hunting the super monsters. Have the supermonsters attacks damage gear in a permanent fashion. People will use less than their best gear to hunt the supermonsters, and need that gear replaced on occasion. Which means work for crafters. Going the route of such armor damage requiring Specialist's repairs could be an option. Any crafter, no matter how many crafting skills he has, can only specialize in one type, and can't be done with a repair deed. It needs expert hands-on work.

Having materials needed for crafting be very hard to get for most players has driven the price of those materials way high. The Dev's trash the economy again and again by doing this. Make all the cotton-picking materials available to crafters in some fashion that doesn't require sampires or millions in gold. Once you do, the materials that cost millions now will soon cost thousands.

 

[Tanivar]

I would love to create some uber suits for sale on my vendor, but since people do not need suits all the time, those suits may languish awhile before a sale. Vendor fees absolutely keep me from offering a range of suits at a reasonable price. Pricing is impossible when you have no control over the time an item will remain on a vendor. So for me, vendor mechanics are the major reason my crafters only work for me.

Gear just lasts to long. I have 100% LRC and 100% LRC All 70's Resists armor suits for sale on vendors at three shops in different locations. They typically sit there because it takes months or years for most suits to wear out. If you set up vendors with a variety of suits on them, they would just sit there because a PoFed to the hilt suit will last years. Heck I made suits for my spellslinger/archer characters when Imbueing was added to the game. I've had one wear out and the durability was in the usual 35-45 range, the rest are still good.

 

[Uriah Heep]

I'm inclined to think that what killed the smith at the forge wasn't the repair deeds so much as what made them necessary. The increasing number of scammers impersonating reputable smiths to cheat people out of their weapons and armour.

The scammers were it, I believe that. But in order to maintain the interplay between the crafter and the warriors, The coding time spent working on repair orders should have been spent fixing it where the crafter could actually do the repair in the trade window. Problem solved, Crafters still needed, players still interacting. We'll never see those days again, and tbh, I dont think a crafter is near as much fun to play today. If I seriously wanted to study and work spreadsheets and spend the night calculating this and that and the other...hell I would go back to college LOL!

 

[Tanivar]

Umm....I betcha those suits would sell like hotcakes if UO was actually getting some new players or players returning from 4 or 5 years ago before imbuing was added and if those people knew where to find your shop.

One is in Luna on the south road near the east corner. Second from the end with it's back to the bank. Front left vendor in black & brown.

The Second is on Makoto Isle just north of the moongate. The Shop has a row of 14 vendors along the front of the second floor. The left end one in Armor.

The third is at the house just over the bridge south of Luna. The vendor in armor.

They list at the tail end of a barbed leather search.

The bulk of what I sell is crafted housing deco.

 

[Warpig Inc]

Petra nailed it on why the repair deeds are a must with the value of gear.

One big reason I never pushed doing the uber is the need of the no fail enhance for real cash tool. Something that should be regulated to the BOD reward system and crafter quest. But only can be used on gear from where the reward came from. Vendor crafting sales crashed when the two jars fo PoF sells for more then an item it is used on. Bribes to the save but when you take in the gathering of supplies time. Falls back on selling it nets more then some sweet sleeves would sell for.

Reforging would of went over better as a new line of recipes. Ones that had a one use for a unique high end mod. The recipe was not learned but more like needed to craft ingredient.

 

[DJAd]

Player - "Can you craft me a suit like yours? Money is no object"

Crafter - "Sure, so you want all the same mods etc?"

Player - "yes"

Crafter - "OK go and grab the resources and a few runic kits so I can get started"


----2 days later----


Player - "how is it coming along?"

Crafter - "Yeah, I got 2 parts done, I need some more runic kits, its just not giving me the mods we need"

Player - "more runic kits? wow, thats 5 already, I hope your not scamming me"

Crafter - "Its random, I got no control over the result."

Player - "I think your just stealing all my kits, actually don't worry about it".

Crafter - *slams down hammer and heads to the inn*

 

[MalagAste]

I work really hard building suits that are just fine...... they aren't "over the top" but they are good enough to get you where you need to go most times. I see no point to having every piece Reforged... infact I've never reforged anything.... I don't even own anything that's reforged...

I figure I can do a fair job of things without messing around with that.

I'd much rather see things added to the town system that adds different craftables to the towns.... perhaps in the form of recipes... So Crafters can select a "Town" to be from and get unique stuff to make for folk. Then you could sell those items to others. I think it would be great. I'd also like to see Unique colors for things added to each town... some sort of pigment or something ... Perhaps some new ingot colors and the like.

New seeds plants and such added to the towns... Now that we have a town loyalty system I'd like to see it expanded even more. I'd also like some way to have Player towns be able to have things... Giving incentive to communities. As it is right now I see no reason why my main would declare loyalty to any town that isn't "his". I mean he has a town.... so why would he be loyal to Trinsic or Jhelom or Britain when he lives and works in Newcastle??? Makes ZERO sense to me why he'd want to give to a town that isn't his. Can our towns get a turn in box on our banner? Can we not get a title and earn a title in our own city???

 

[Tanivar]

Crafter - "Yeah, I got 2 parts done, I need some more runic kits, its just not giving me the mods we need"

Player - "more runic kits? wow, thats 5 already, I hope your not scamming me"

Crafter - "Its random, I got no control over the result."

Runics are a crapshoot, and nothing else has ever fit the word better. Why do people bother with the things? Slow on the uptake, or do they just have so much game gold that throwing away a few hundred million doesn't matter to them?

Of course with PoF and insurance, if the game should last a couple of centuries, their great-great-grandchildren can include the suit of armor in their wills and pass it on to their children.

 

[Heimi]

Runics are a crapshoot, and nothing else has ever fit the word better. Why do people bother with the things? Slow on the uptake, or do they just have so much game gold that throwing away a few hundred million doesn't matter to them?

Of course with PoF and insurance, if the game should last a couple of centuries, their great-great-grandchildren can include the suit of armor in their wills and pass it on to their children.

Runics are used for reforging now, which is still a crapshoot but generally yields better results.

 

[DJAd]

Runics are a crapshoot, and nothing else has ever fit the word better. Why do people bother with the things?

Totally agree with you there. Trouble is you want the best "uber" gear then you pretty much have to use them. Lots of them.

 

[Silverbird]

I think that the failure doesnt lie in the crafting system. Especially with imbuing, you can get very good results in a reasonable amount of time: 100% lrc, 40 lmc, some Mr or/and MI/HPI and all 70's, meddable? No problem. (Anyone remembers the time, when LRC came out? The time needed to get a meddable lrc-suit? )
In other, more modern MMORPGs cutomers usually have to get the crafting ingredients first, when they want something. Customers in UO want the finished pieces. They are used to do easy gold farming and simply buy everything. How high should you charge a customer for a suit, that took you hours to craft, when even an only halfway trained char can farm 100k+ per hour. It is what ppl expect from seasoned crafters and those usually dont know, what they are asking for.
I like when ppl try to return to the game but i am still getting upset, when I am stumbling over threads like Returning Player Hiring a Crafter: Looking to Buy Suit and Wep | Stratics Forums .

 

[temu]

I use Microsoft Excel to sum up the resists on the suits that I make! It's a great tool.

 

[Warpig Inc]

I use a new hotbar and pull suit icons for resist and mods for totaling pertaining to the characters template. Just need the polymorph spell to allow armor wearing of other race while the spell last. Not like we need a way for a spell casting human to fly in goyl form.

 

[Joey Porter]

I use a new hotbar and pull suit icons for resist and mods for totaling pertaining to the characters template. Just need the polymorph spell to allow armor wearing of other race while the spell last. Not like we need a way for a spell casting human to fly in goyl form.

Can you explain this further.

 

[Obsidian]

This is a great thread. I want to add a few thoughts. First, I want to say that I love the complexity of the crafting system today. It is intricate, involves multiple skills, different tools and materials, and let's you make powerful items to fit your personal needs. I would not want to see the system "simplified" as some are requesting.

What I see as the real issue is the imbalance between PvM and Crafters. Today, a crafter requires ingredients that can only be acquired in mass quantites via PvM. Additionally, the amount of gold earned per hour is exponentially higher than in Crafting. The system doesn't adequately pay or reward crafters for interacting with the game systems. As much as I would like to see players need to work with other live players, I think that ship sailed long ago and the possibility for both samming and abuse is high. There also aren't enough players on all shards to make player-to-player interaction a must.

Theses are some things I would do to adjust the dependency between crafters and PvM adventurers:

1) Increase the gold-per-time that crafters can earn doing crafting systems (bods and quests)
2) Add new alternatives where crafters can do crafting quests and earn SA ingredients
3) Add new incentives for crafting -- crafter "drops" that can occur from doing crafting. Hoe about an extremely rare chance when you are crafting that you craft a "legendary" base item with a max imbuing intensity of 600. Stuff like that. Also there needs to be ways to acquire artifact drops that can be imbued. Again there needs to be incentives as well that are seperate from PvM monster drops.

 

[Warpig Inc]

EC thing. Opening the status table the icons along the left side of the table can be pulled to a hotbar. I turn the hotbar verticle and place it to the right of the paperdoll. Covers resist MR HpR StamR, LMC, DCI, HCI, SDI, SSI, DI, RFD, LRC, EP, FC, FCR, Total weapon damage spread in hand, Luck, Weight, Gold, Followers, Total STR/DEX/INT and max stats. Opening the chiv book allows the tithing point total icon to be pulled into a hotbar. I don't sit and make armor to fit in niches. I make/collect a bunch and just shuffle till it is close to max and maybe cap off with one custom piece. Helps when building around the new loot items and arty.

For a human crafter putting together a suit for an elf or gargoyle, good thing multi client EC allows me to log on another account for the right race for fitting. To be able to polymorph spell into another race and fit a suit on self during spell duration would be nice. Spell runs out and off race items just drop in backpack like a weight issue.

(Not like we need a way for a spell casting human to fly in goyl form.) Just nipping the trolls in the but that have selective reading and think a player in slime form should have the HP and resist of a slime. Or fly a short distance in chicken form. Or run as fast as a deer.

 

[Warpig Inc]

We need a new land that characters can travel too stripped. Paperdoll/backpack/bank/0 followers empty. And return with only things in backpack that cannot be worn. The new land has gold only rare small amounts to make insurance hard to maintain. Fel base land for the hunting gathering land areas. New stabling that is used for new land tames. Crafters would rule the coop right down to the alky and scribe. And those that live to fight would barter with resourses and gems. Maybe some new form of currency to be used with vendors. Houses and new guildhouse plots would have to be refreshed old school style or decay. No need for housing spots taken up by accounts that pop on once a month to see if their old UO has returned. Or instead this new land could be the pirates cove with a large docking area for boats and just add in an NPC bought wand ( See worn item catch above) for placing vendors on ten targeted palcement deck tiles.

 

[The Craftsman]

What we need is a classic shard where crafters will be a vital part of the community again, making and repairing at the forge GM suits and weapons.

 

[Joey Porter]

I never said I thought the system should be changed and It is not an issue with the cost of the items. I have a good amount of gold and the abyss is my favorite place to PVM so regs are usually not an issue either. Again, for ME it is simply to much work, time and complication to fully get into it.

I was simply answering the OP's question on why I thought crafting was kind of dead.

 

[Slickjack]

This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time.

I'm one of the guys that absolutely geeks out over making a suit.

Spreadsheets, scraps of paper all over my desk...

Just this week, I used an entire 60k deed of regular leather JUST to make dozens upon dozens of the EXACT resist pattern gloves I need for my last piece for a suit.

I'll take these 40 or so pieces and THEN reforge them all until I get the closest option pattern that I need for my suit...

..........................

This is, like others have said, an extreme way to craft... but I'm so OCD that if the option is available for a suit, then I want it.

Yes, it is like having another job. But I LOVE it...


..........................

The big issue I have: I would LOVE to help others with these type suits, but the time and money is incalculable.... mostly the time cost though.
When a friend or guildmate asks for help on a suit, I feel terrible, because I do not think they have ANY idea what they are asking for...

 

[startle]

This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time.... Just this week, I used an entire 60k deed of regular leather JUST to make dozens upon dozens of the EXACT resist pattern gloves I need for my last piece for a suit..... The big issue I have: I would LOVE to help others with these type suits, but the time and money is incalculable.... mostly the time cost though. When a friend or guildmate asks for help on a suit, I feel terrible, because I do not think they have ANY idea what they are asking for...

This ^^^^

 

[Athelas]

I remember back in 1999 there were what I would call "Professional Crafters". They were individuals who spent the majority of their time at the smithy in Britain providing services such as repairing armor/weapons for people and taking armor/weapons orders. However, over time most of us made our own crafters and the need for these professional crafters diminished. When what was fun for them in game disappeared so did they. Some of these folks left the game all together, others pursued other interests.

For many years there have been cries of people saying things along the lines of making crafting a viable and profitable profession again. Eventually they implemented imbuing and reforging. It seems that UO once again created the opportunity for the professional crafter class to re-emerge. The thing is, now that the opportunity is here where are they? Has anyone with any real interest in this class completely left the game? Or is it that imbuing/reforging is so complicated/expensive no one is willing to do it?

I've made and remade several high end suits as the changes came out. When imbuing came out I spent considerable time and money remaking suits for all of my characters. When reforging came out I spent even more time and only made suits for my main characters. By time I mean I have likely spent hundreds of real human hours either obtaining resources or crafting the actual items. It can take a day of making base pieces just to get the right roll on the resists. Now with reforging you are taking a gamble that the base piece will get desirable mods.

Besides the investing in actual crafting there is also the competitive advantage. People tweak their suits and spend time in spreadsheets to maximize their effectiveness. They actually test things out and see what works, what is worth having and in what amounts. Many of these people are PvPers who don't want their enemies to have a direct benefit of their efforts.

My point? I am not sure there is one besides missing the people of the professional crafter class. It is time consuming enough when you make something for someone and they tell you exactly what they need on it. i.e. "I need a ring with 15 HCI, 15 DCI, 25 DI, 25 EP and the rest in dex" But I do have a laugh when someone says: "I need an awesome pvp mage suit maxed out. Whoever has the best price I don't want to get taken". Realistically it costs millions upon millions of gold to make something like that and that is not counting the crafter's time. These posts always inevitably go un-answered or someone ends up trolling the original poster. I wish we did have a bustling crafter class again as some of these players probably end up just giving up on the game instead of investing the time into doing it themselves. How do we make crafting a profitable endeavor? I think that is a question to anyone who wants to see Ultima thrive.

Thanks for reading,


~Podolak

Interesting read! I think in order for a crafter to be successful they have to be as adaptable as possible. In my case I will probably never be successful because I enjoy the old ways too much. I'll sit in my house making bows the old fashioned way till the cows come home. But again I'm not necessarily trying to turn a profit, I just enjoy the old way. Have to love those moments when you make something truly amazing and in some cases impossible to rival with imbuing. Those moments are rare, but that is half the fun.

As for those that are successful crafters, a few names come to mind. They were the first to GM imbuing on Atl and the first to start putting suits together with specific temps in mind. There are several famous crafters from Atlantic and I'd say they have managed to stay that way because they have always been able to roll with the punches and keep up with the times.

 

[Mazulat]

I enjoy suit building the way a lot of folks enjoy peerless farming. I could do it all day happily, ...mashing out the base pieces to tune the resists just right, then watching the RNG smack me on the reforge so I can do it again (the crafter version of an arty drop?). But it is so hard to price these builds in a realistic way. Multiple runics, plus the base leather/wood/bark resources, imbuing ingreds, PoF, Forged metal of artifacts.... By the time a suit is done (typically 3-5 crafted pieces) the prices are 5x what a normal mid-level player can afford or is expecting. You can't just buy armor off a vendor anymore, not with so many resist and mod options.

I've been a crafter since the beginning, even going so far as to transfer off my home shard, rename my toons, and start over fresh somewhere to be able to equip new players again on a new shard. I'm sure other crafters have had the issue.. once you get known for suits, you spend so much time gathering/building/spread-sheeting that you miss out on other stuff, in my case camping haven to help new players. Now I camp on TC a few hours a day helping newer crafters learn about of crafting techniques as well as how they mesh with the newer reforging and imbuing. Without the old brit smithy or haven smithy... there is no exchange of information and training for crafters like there used to be. Even PVP has a base to learn the basics (yew gate). There is a steep and rather expensive learning curve to be able to craft some of the more popular suits (woodland sampire/ 190 luck mage leather/ PVE tank mage leather) and newer players are basically screwed.

There has to be a way to bring back some of the older community to crafting. PVE ingredient gatherers and crafter end users is a start.. but it's not enough. Find a central location, or bulletin system for needs and wants, then at least there is a place to gather, even if it's just to try and get some work. Just my .02 , but what do I know, I still enjoy mining too.