Why are guildmates allowed to steal/kill in Trammel?

[Viper09]

perhaps a guild-wide option, to enable reporting, or not?

No, if we're going to do a toggle leave it for pvp on/off. Being able to count your guildmate can lead to even worse greifing. Can already see it, griefer attacks guildmate, gets damaged, runs off and kills themself then counts the guildmate. Repeat until red.

 

[Flutter]

I have a large guild. At one point the largest on Catskills. Might still be. Not an easy way to tell without myuo anymore. I've run this guild for a few years now.
People have been trying to "take out" my guild for years. Especially because we are a big guild and we do pvp.
My statement above stands.
It sounds like people are getting into your guild who you do not know and/or who your emissaries do not know, and that is your problem. Don't guild people just to have numbers and be "big". I would rather play with one or two people I knew well and trusted than but a giant renown guild and have your problem.
Yes, over the years my guild house has been robbed. Our pots have been taken. Occasionally someone got killed afk at the bank. This was easily taken care of by removing the offending party, restocking the guild house, and making new pots. It's not a game stopping problem.
Sounds like you need to start over from scratch. Put those people who are your "friends and family" in your guild and make them emissaries. Make sure if they guild one of their friends the rest of the emissaries have met them first, know they are new to your guild and are aware of who they are. There should be no one on your list that you aren't sure of who they are. That way when you run through your active members and see a name you don't recognize and there is some problem it's easy to kick that person off of your roster. You can always reguild someone if it is a mistake.
You're really trying to make the whole game suffer for your own personal guild problems.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

No, if we're going to do a toggle leave it for pvp on/off.

pvp off? like your own personal Tram zone? it come w/ a pony?

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I have a large guild. At one point the largest on Catskills. Might still be. Not an easy way to tell without myuo anymore. I've run this guild for a few years now.
People have been trying to "take out" my guild for years. Especially because we are a big guild and we do pvp.
My statement above stands.
It sounds like people are getting into your guild who you do not know and/or who your emissaries do not know, and that is your problem. Don't guild people just to have numbers and be "big". I would rather play with one or two people I knew well and trusted than but a giant renown guild and have your problem.
Yes, over the years my guild house has been robbed. Our pots have been taken. Occasionally someone got killed afk at the bank. This was easily taken care of by removing the offending party, restocking the guild house, and making new pots. It's not a game stopping problem.
Sounds like you need to start over from scratch. Put those people who are your "friends and family" in your guild and make them emissaries. Make sure if they guild one of their friends the rest of the emissaries have met them first, know they are new to your guild and are aware of who they are. There should be no one on your list that you aren't sure of who they are. That way when you run through your active members and see a name you don't recognize and there is some problem it's easy to kick that person off of your roster. You can always reguild someone if it is a mistake.
You're really trying to make the whole game suffer for your own personal guild problems.

Yes that is true we have alot of ppl tho we trust it only took the small few to bring it down. I have closed the guild for years now and let it slowly fade away.... Most of the ppl that are in and out we have known for years now. Its more something that was , then something that is. If changes where made I would open the doors again to everyone. Back in the day you could bann ppl from your house so thats what I would do to keep ppl out of the guild.. Just bann from the tower if they could not get in they could not join.. For some time it was real good cause it would bann the account of the player. They changed that and banning was not as good. This was years ago tho our number are still pretty good, I think not active but I have alot of good friends that are still in the guild.

 

[Flutter]

I even ask my emmies if they guild one of their alt characters please let me know who they are. Sometimes I put a note to signify who they are as their guild title. This has been huge for me to be able to keep track of who is who. I'm not saying it's easy. It's a job that you have to be prepared for, but the system does work if you work with it.
No one would ever guild someone in my guild without asking first. It's not a lack of trust, it's just.. well, the way it is. We are in an alliance which makes us huge. Certain people have history with other people which makes it necessary to say "Hey guys mind if we guild up XXX person?"
It's not me being controlling (I've been accused of this). It's me making sure that if I can't get on for a while, like for instance this entire year so far has been very hard, my people can pretty much govern themselves.
Chain of command. Making sure anyone who is an emissary knows who each character is, or knows who to ask if there's a question. Someone using a disguise kit? Pfft... don't recognize that name on the roster just kick them until Flutter gets on. We will ask her. I don't have a spreadsheet. I have kicked people's characters out without realizing it was someone's alt. We just guild them back up. No one's ever complained. Better safe than sorry.
It's a job as your guild gets bigger. It can be managed. Chain of the command is the key. I know we don't want to give one person "authority" over another, but it really really works when everyone knows who they can ask for assistance.
You don't have to be friends with everyone in your guild or alliance. You DO have to know who they all are and who their alts are. If you don't know this or have trouble keeping track you're going to have problems. (There's no shame in spread sheets, I just don't use them)
Maybe sometime I'll write something up to help folks with stuff like this. Not that I'm the greatest GM, I've made mistakes. We are only human. But I can see where it can be an overwhelming frustrating task.

 

[Viper09]

pvp off? like your own personal Tram zone? it come w/ a pony?

I can tell you haven't been reading the thread much...why don't you freshen up on the ideas and the topic presented in this thread before bring out the personal attacks, ok?

In a nutshell, the idea is that guids when in trammel can toggle pvp on or off between guildmates.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

pvp off? like your own personal Tram zone? it come w/ a pony?

I think each guild should have a list they can edit of things that show what will happen like a cost of gp.
Removed from guild.
Demoted
Access
titles and command
ways to remove maybe strikes put to guild members like paying so much or something that would help the guild?
So maybe it could stay within the guild so the system could do more on its own.

IF you have to pay gp for killing someone then the ones the got killed would lose nothing it would go into the guild fund and could be payed back from one char to anther so they would pay the insure plus>>> what they guild sets like 500 k or something. So you could allow it to a point then have them removed from the guild.
Maybe base some stuff on time I could really do alot with it. Being at the a spot at a time or something. Where the higher ups could target you in.
Just seems basic to have rules ranks and titles not so easy to make it all fit tho and keep the ideals small.

 

[Surgeries]

Why do I get the feeling that many in here missed the toggle part in this thread?

I see many suggestions on how to "weed" people out and how to investigate what happened after it happened and that you should jump on another char to stock a vendor.

All of those are good advices but with one tiny, little toggle option ALL of this would be fixed.

No more wasting time and energy weeding new recruits out.
No more wasting time and energy investigating what happened to find the guilty party.
No more need to switch to another char to stock a vendor.

It WON´T change anything for the guilds that like to do what they do now.
It WILL change a lot for the guilds who don´t want to have to worry about guild-PKing and guild-stealing.

I play Siege myself so for me and my chars it doesn´t matter. But I can understand that some people who play in Trammel play there to get away from that stuff. And for many folks, if they can´t feel trust and safety, why be in a guild at all?

This is the essence of it all.

In Trammel (not in Fel of course) a Toggle would simply solve every single challenge...save one or two (I will cover those two situations in a minute).

Want to spar? Turn that toggle on both chars that want it and spar away!! Do it in Tram and no griefing can occur at all...no effect in Fel!

Want to be open to be stolen from in Tram? Turn on that "I Want It in Tram" toggle.

Want to RP any of the above on one or both chars? Turn On The Tram Toggle!

Don't want to have to interview guild mates with the third degree? Don't want to wait 6 months in induction time to properly "Vett" new recruits, use forensic research after the fact...get references prior to promotion within the guild...etc.? Then just set the toggle to "Not Right Now in Tram", and stay in Tram and all is good.

I can see no way for anyone...but the thief or murderer that is...to lose...from having a Tram Toggle...none.

Maybe I am missing it somehow, but I am a pretty logical guy...and if there is some "Lose" to be had from the toggle I just don't see it.

 

[Flutter]

No, I don't think anyone is missing the toggle point. I just think people disagree with the necessity.
It is a waste of development time. It's not necessary. Especially with the skeleton crew we have working on UO right now.
Just know who you play with.
The "lose" is that it's time and creativity and coding that could be well spent elsewhere in the game. The people working on our game have so little time now for additions, game enhancements, and general bug fixes.
There is a solution that doesn't take any developer/producer time. I posted it above.

 

[Flutter]

I think each guild should have a list they can edit of things that show what will happen like a cost of gp.
Removed from guild.
Demoted
Access
titles and command
ways to remove maybe strikes put to guild members like paying so much or something that would help the guild?
So maybe it could stay within the guild so the system could do more on its own.

IF you have to pay gp for killing someone then the ones the got killed would lose nothing it would go into the guild fund and could be payed back from one char to anther so they would pay the insure plus>>> what they guild sets like 500 k or something. So you could allow it to a point then have them removed from the guild.
Maybe base some stuff on time I could really do alot with it. Being at the a spot at a time or something. Where the higher ups could target you in.
Just seems basic to have rules ranks and titles not so easy to make it all fit tho and keep the ideals small.

Not sure I follow. I'd pay gold to get into an enemy guild and PK them in Trammel though, if that's what you're suggesting...

 

[Zyon Rockler]

No its nothing like that. You can war guilds, a trammel guild is not a waring guild. I was talking about what I would do or add to the guild menu to help manage guilds that are over 100 ppl. So its not alot of work doing the basics like adding titles you could have a void box where you enter the title and then give out the titles based on things like time or skill. If you made the system do a set number of things it would not be as hard to code all at one time as it would to do each thing by itself. As long as you found a way to make them pretty much the same and have them work off each other.

A way to just stop it is good as far as placing your guild into war mode or making it so other guilds or factions can attack each other is all part of that. You would look at the guild as a kingdom in it self and the ppl of that city /kingdom would be the ones who would pay for crimes they have made unlawfully in the laws of that city. This is I am sure way to far ahead for most. It depends on how much detail your guild has now. How many systems you have made for your guild. The thing is as you build it up over the years and you learn how things would be good to help you and how other things may not be so good.

There is tho a basic set am sure that could be added that would be fitting so you could do alliance and other things in a better way to insure that they will not have to be worried about things not working out. So you could better plan and then once its all done there is nothing more to it but to build it up. I think then you will see how much more can be done because more ppl will add to it. Rather then having things planed that tear down guilds and set back the game in numbers.

 

[Viquire]

No, I don't think anyone is missing the toggle point. I just think people disagree with the necessity.
It is a waste of development time. It's not necessary. Especially with the skeleton crew we have working on UO right now.
Just know who you play with.
The "lose" is that it's time and creativity and coding that could be well spent elsewhere in the game. The people working on our game have so little time now for additions, game enhancements, and general bug fixes.
There is a solution that doesn't take any developer/producer time. I posted it above.

Right, this is asking for changes to be made to code that affects the entire reputations, flagged actions, and guild systems. I don't think that is where their focus is right now, nor do I want to ask them to momentarily shift their gaze in that direction. I'd rather wait until time and resources make a good long look at the system with an eye for improvements practical.

 

[Driven Insane]

No, I don't think anyone is missing the toggle point. I just think people disagree with the necessity.
It is a waste of development time. It's not necessary. Especially with the skeleton crew we have working on UO right now.

Opposed to redoing Factions for the millionth time to please less than .1% of the population that actually cares about factions (not overpowered artis). Based on your posts I can assume that you're ok with them spending valuable development time on that, correct?

You're so transparent.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

No, if we're going to do a toggle leave it for pvp on/off. Being able to count your guildmate can lead to even worse greifing. Can already see it, griefer attacks guildmate, gets damaged, runs off and kills themself then counts the guildmate. Repeat until red.

I do not think it works this way if you attack then you are the one that would go red not the one being attacked.
If you attack someone and they call guards before they die I do not think you would get a count you would just get dead.
If you attacked and killed then they would get a gump and you then would get something telling you now you have a count.
Pardons I beleave could be used before you are red?
You have to kill I beleave what five times? to go red?
That means you would really have to work on making your self red if you think about cause most of the time you will get guard waked before you can kill them so not even every time would you get a count and I do not see how you can attack some one and turn them red? So they are going to fall for it 5 times even if you could do that and not once call guards on you?
This would even buy time to get you moved out of the guild. I Guess I might not be up on this but,, is this not how it works in fel and you are saying ppl can do this now. Then it would need to be fixed anyhow so its a good time to turn it on in tram and see the law put into action and let justice take its rightful place.
Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The key here is who attacks first they are the ones who get the count if you let it happen any other way it will not work. If you attacked me I would call guards right away so you could still have a toggle that would allow for the pvp turning off the justice system and allowing for pvp. So this would be the main system that would be the same in cities if you were not in a guild. The guild toggle would just turn that off so guards don't show up every other min if you trying to pvp or steal something in a play if some type.

 

[Flutter]

Opposed to redoing Factions for the millionth time to please less than .1% of the population that actually cares about factions (not overpowered artis). Based on your posts I can assume that you're ok with them spending valuable development time on that, correct?

You're so transparent.

I'm so transparent? Should I try to be more mysterious?
There were a lot of people who used the faction system before someone who thought they knew what they were doing borked it. I guarantee you it was well over your "less than .1%" estimate.
But since they've redone it a "million times" I guess I must have blinked and missed all but the first three in 15 years, one of which was never implemented.
There is no reason for developers/producer to spend quality time changing the whole flagging system for guilds. I've explained why this would be a waste of time in my posts above. I have even offered to help those with issues overcome them with suggestions on how to avoid problems.
I'm transparent. I try to hide nothing.
On the other hand, this thread is starting to sound more like an advertisement for a pvp toggle/switch than an actual guild system issue.

 

[Viper09]

You're right in that is not how it works. Wasn't thinking through it clearly, would have corrected it but realized it a bit late. However counting guildmates still would be a bad idea in my opinion. If I was worried about getting counts from even a guildmate I might start thinking twice about my dueling them. It would still open the door for more griefing on a different level. Last thing we need are tram players who avoid fel worrying about getting counts or even going red for any kind of duels with guildmates as part of a guild event or just for fun.

I do not think it works this way if you attack then you are the one that would go red not the one being attacked.
If you attack someone and they call guards before they die I do not think you would get a count you would just get dead.
If you attacked and killed then they would get a gump and you then would get something telling you now you have a count.
Pardons I beleave could be used before you are red?
You have to kill I beleave what five times? to go red?
That means you would really have to work on making your self red if you think about cause most of the time you will get guard waked before you can kill them so not even every time would you get a count and I do not see how you can attack some one and turn them red? So they are going to fall for it 5 times even if you could do that and not once call guards on you?
This would even buy time to get you moved out of the guild. I Guess I might not be up on this but,, is this not how it works in fel and you are saying ppl can do this now. Then it would need to be fixed anyhow so its a good time to turn it on in tram and see the law put into action and let justice take its rightful place.
Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The key here is who attacks first they are the ones who get the count if you let it happen any other way it will not work. If you attacked me I would call guards right away so you could still have a toggle that would allow for the pvp turning off the justice system and allowing for pvp. So this would be the main system that would be the same in cities if you were not in a guild. The guild toggle would just turn that off so guards don't show up every other min if you trying to pvp or steal something in a play if some type.

 

[Viper09]

There is no reason for developers/producer to spend quality time changing the whole flagging system for guilds. I've explained why this would be a waste of time in my posts above. I have even offered to help those with issues overcome them with suggestions on how to avoid problems.
I'm transparent. I try to hide nothing.
On the other hand, this thread is starting to sound more like an advertisement for a pvp toggle/switch than an actual guild system issue.

Agree with the first part. And to be honest I am only agreeing with a pvp toggle/switch only for guilds and for guildmates as a way for a GM to regulate their guilds if need be. Any idea for a global pvp toggle to protect people anywhere I am against.

 

[O'Brien]

I think what the question of a toggle really boils down to what is the purpose of a guild? A title and guild-chat? House permissions?

Joining and being accepted into a guild, based on the current and past systems, is basically on the honor system. Sure you'll get burned from time to time. But take that away, and the meaning of guild membership and it's circle of trust aspect is devalued IMO.

I agree with some earlier posters. If you're having too much abuse, then be more careful and get to know who you recruit. Quality over quantity. Take a step back and think of some things you might be able to change to stop making so many enemies. Teach guildmates how to identify and take precautions against potential rogue members.

This isn't a race to see who can get the biggest guild, folks. Nor is this something developer time should be spent on.

 

[Tjalle]

My vision of the toggle was a guild-wide toggle that only the Guild leader can use, not an individual one.
So once the toggle is set either way then all chars under that guild tag applies to the settings. But it only applies in a Tram ruleset.

If I make a guild then I lay out the rules for that guild. Be it toggle ON or OFF.
Then when I recruit people they will learn if it is an ON or OFF guild. And they will either accept what it is and stay or they will leave.

With such a toggle, the only "griefing" I can imagine would be if the GM itself switched the toggle when it was time to guild-steal or guild-PK but that would more or less be a non-issue.

Of course, if guild members want to spar they can always use an arena or go to a secluded spot in Felucca and fight. No big thing.

Now, how much time and recources my kind of toggle would take I don´t know but I´d like to think it can´t be that much. A few days work hopefully which it would be worth for the benefits it would give.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think what the question of a toggle really boils down to what is the purpose of a guild? A title and guild-chat? House permissions?

Joining and being accepted into a guild, based on the current and past systems, is basically on the honor system. Sure you'll get burned from time to time. But take that away, and the meaning of guild membership and it's circle of trust aspect is devalued IMO.

I agree with some earlier posters. If you're having too much abuse, then be more careful and get to know who you recruit. Quality over quantity. Take a step back and think of some things you might be able to change to stop making so many enemies. Teach guildmates how to identify and take precautions against potential rogue members.

This isn't a race to see who can get the biggest guild, folks. Nor is this something developer time should be spent on.

The meaning of guild is something players come up with and try to make part of the world like a guild that has its own ideals or its own story. You can build trust in other ways. When you are growing up you do not love and respect your father becuse you know he can kill you at anytime. Trust can be earnd by being there and talking with others or doing things to gather and keeping each other alive. You should not feel like it is your job as a gm of a guild to make sure ppl are not killing each other or steeling from each other.

When you let other ppl kill the ppl in the guilds off, thos ideals also die and are lost to the world. Honor is not about not killing you Its about giving them something to show you care about them and showing you are will to give something of your self. To live in fear dose not give a guild meaning nor does losing everything you have. If you think about it a guild is mainly to get ppl together and have a good time and to let them go home and tell ppl they know about the good time they had. You should not base that around dieing or trusting that no one had killed you. When you go out to eat with your family you dont come back home and say I had a good time tonight not one of you tried to kill me.

Think of the guild master and him having to deal with that all the time one guy kills anther guy that keeps stealing from him and the other just will not stop stealing his stuff. This is more a dishonor and if you build your guild on the ideal that no one should kill and all should love and protect then ppl like that can tear it down and say they had just cause because the system says its ok to do it. So why have laws that stop ppl from killing each other why do we not just trust each other? I mean should we try to protect our ideals of freedom and love or let the killers decide what is right? After all if someone kills you its your own fault because you were not careful and looking behind you 24 hours a day. And if your family is killed it is also there fault for not making sure they picked the right friends to hang with. When are ppl going to just say that killing is wrong?

The game is hurt by other ppl because the system lets them do what they want to. They have to have rules and laws to protect there ppl it has nothing to do with trust when you are forced into trusting.. It was ok in fel because the rules of the land said you can kill others.. It is not ok in tram where the rules say you may not. If you think this is a better way to honor each other then do it like that in fel. Make a guild of murders and thieves and base the guild on honor.

You do not see a bunch of blues going to fel and joining red guilds and saying to them do not kill each other do not steal and then being able to make them because the system is so messed up? But its ok for them to come to tramel and kill and stral from us? The guilds make something that each guild has that can make the game better like holding events shard wide events boating trips mining teams.. I do not see how letting someone kill everyone helps thos things at all? I guess it was fun to do in fel but I think it should stay in fel.. If I want to go kill ppl I will not join a guild to do it. That is honor.
Honour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guild - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[O'Brien]

I've never been PK'd or stolen from by a guildmate. Perhaps that's because I'm lucky, or because I am selective with my guild choices and don't make a decision solely based on guild size? And maybe the problem is being exaggerated. You can get guild-PK'd once in a while yeah, but it being a daily problem? Something is wrong with your guild in that case.

When I'm in a guild, I think "hey, these guys can PK me and steal from me, and yet they haven't. These guys are alright." If a guild toggles the no attack/no stealing switch, my initial reaction would be "These guys recruited me but it means nothing by itself because all they've done is give me a title and access to their guild chat without opening themselves up at all."

I will say now that I would never join a attack/stealing-disabled guild. I guess it's a good thing I now play on Siege. I'll continue only joining guilds that have rules against it and members who follow the rules. If they don't follow the rules, boot them. If the guild can't get it under control, find a new guild. It's that simple.

The meaning of guild is something players come up with and try to make part of the world like a guild that has its own ideals or its own story. You can build trust in other ways. When you are growing up you do not love and respect your father becuse you know he can kill you at anytime. Trust can be earnd by being there and talking with others or doing things to gather and keeping each other alive. You should not feel like it is your job as a gm of a guild to make sure ppl are not killing each other or steeling from each other.

When you let other ppl kill the ppl in the guilds off, thos ideals also die and are lost to the world. Honor is not about not killing you Its about giving them something to show you care about them and showing you are will to give something of your self. To live in fear dose not give a guild meaning nor does losing everything you have. If you think about it a guild is mainly to get ppl together and have a good time and to let them go home and tell ppl they know about the good time they had. You should not base that around dieing or trusting that no one had killed you. When you go out to eat with your family you dont come back home and say I had a good time tonight not one of you tried to kill me.

Think of the guild master and him having to deal with that all the time one guy kills anther guy that keeps stealing from him and the other just will not stop stealing his stuff. This is more a dishonor and if you build your guild on the ideal that no one should kill and all should love and protect then ppl like that can tear it down and say they had just cause because the system says its ok to do it. So why have laws that stop ppl from killing each other why do we not just trust each other? I mean should we try to protect our ideals of freedom and love or let the killers decide what is right? After all if someone kills you its your own fault because you were not careful and looking behind you 24 hours a day. And if your family is killed it is also there fault for not making sure they picked the right friends to hang with. When are ppl going to just say that killing is wrong?

The game is hurt by other ppl because the system lets them do what they want to. They have to have rules and laws to protect there ppl it has nothing to do with trust when you are forced into trusting.. It was ok in fel because the rules of the land said you can kill others.. It is not ok in tram where the rules say you may not. If you think this is a better way to honor each other then do it like that in fel. Make a guild of murders and thieves and base the guild on honor.

You do not see a bunch of blues going to fel and joining red guilds and saying to them do not kill each other do not steal and then being able to make them because the system is so messed up? But its ok for them to come to tramel and kill and stral from us? The guilds make something that each guild has that can make the game better like holding events shard wide events boating trips mining teams.. I do not see how letting someone kill everyone helps thos things at all? I guess it was fun to do in fel but I think it should stay in fel.. If I want to go kill ppl I will not join a guild to do it. That is honor.
Honour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guild - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Zyon Rockler]

No I think its cause no one cares about doing it to you. You can test this tell ppl in your guild you have something they would like to have and make sure it is on an easy target like a new char maybe go into town and meet up with your good trusted friends and see who they really are. Then come back and tell me about your friends and what they do to ppl that can not defend them selves I am sure we would all like a good story.Just make sure they do not know it is you that would spoil the surprise.

You try to blame the guild and the ppl who are in it but even you said if that is happening there is a problem.
But you fail to see it as a system problem and try to claim it the fault of the size or the GM but you prize the system that allows it to happen. If someone wanted to they could is the point. When I said to think about the gm having to deal with it I was talking about the system. Just by admitting it can happen means that you agree with the fact the system allows for it to happen.

You try to find a way to explain it but you can not. To me it is that simple if it is possible then it should be fixed. I hear something like the tire might fall off because the lugs are are missing and then we go all around it.. Why can you not just put the lugs back in and make it so it dose not fall off? Guild size dose not change the system I could have one person or I could have 20 billion it will not put the lugs back on tire.. The point is that it is not a daily thing it means that it could happen there for it is always a problem for all guilds. The place you play should not have it because it is based on the rules of the land you should not even post if you do not live in trammel because this is based on that rule set. You have a fel rule set and in that type there is no way to stop ppl from killing each other. That is why not many ppl play there. I do not know tho even so why you would not say it is not right do you agree that it is wrong that ppl can kill each other inside a guild and allow for them to be taken out or even force ppl into other games or shards ppl do not play on?

 

[Viquire]

Dag nab it. How is it that folks think they should get to decide what would be better for them is right for everyone else. You have the capacity and ability to correct this problem for yourself. If you think it would be worth the effort I suggest you take some time to expend said effort, as opposed to coming here and proclaiming your UO is the UO for everyone or we are all idiots. This game supports a LOT of different playstyles and that is why I subscribe to it.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Dag nab it. How is it that folks think they should get to decide what would be better for them is right for everyone else. You have the capacity and ability to correct this problem for yourself. If you think it would be worth the effort I suggest you take some time to expend said effort, as opposed to coming here and proclaiming your UO is the UO for everyone or we are all idiots. This game supports a LOT of different playstyles and that is why I subscribe to it.

I agree with this.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

It is what it is if you like uo the way it is now then keep that way no one is making you change it.. It is up to you to make it a better game or it is up to you to leave it like it is because you like it that way.. I have already fixed it for my self I will not add ppl.. See I fixed it. I do not care what you do.. When I am ready I will move on or I will not depending on how changes are made. I do not care if ppl are idiots or not I am sure I sound like one and I dont stop trying to make a point . That dose mean I am wrong tho. I am so happy that everyone here has done what they have because they wanted to that is all that relly matters right now. We have to try and you can not blame each other for the way things are.. I will take all the blame it all my fault I am sure that will help alot of ppl make a good choice of what is right for them but I am sure my feelings should not matter eather. I just hope that what we get from it is a stronger feeling about it one way or the other. If we can not talk out openly with each other then what is the point? I can see that every one thinks they are fighting for them selves but we are not we are fighting for you UO. I do not think I am right in anything I just hope for change that better helps me to have fun and protects my ppl better.

 

[Wenchkin]

You know what, I wouldn't really care if a toggle went in, but I really don't think it's a good use of dev time. You don't need to shut down a guild or wait for this change to make your life easier. A recruitment guild took seconds for me to create and was actually less work than having to watch every new recruit like a hawk. My guilds were warred to a number of large RP guilds, I wasn't going to let some little wannabe come in and go on a killing spree while I was offline. Nor was I going to let them kill others in the main guild.

I set things up so I could recruit someone into my newbie guild and go to sleep at night not dreading that "hey, your novice just killed all our town guard and looted them!" message.

Besides a no fighting toggle is of no use to a lot of guilds who want to help each other train or just mess around sparring for a laugh. Or for RP guilds.

I'm of the belief that if you can fix your own problem rather than asking a dev to change the game, that's the best option to take.

Wenchy

 

[Squidward]

If a toggle like this went in, 90% of guildleaders would disable PVP overnight and everyone here knows it.

Joe Blow average member can sit here and post about how stupid lazy guild leadership should just read everyone's mind to weed out bad eggs and train forensic eval and have 24/7 emmy coverage to kick out troublemakers, but I guarantee his opinion would mean squat the minute his guildleader was staring at the "NEVER DEAL WITH GUILD PK/THIEF DRAMA EVER AGAIN" button and deciding whether to push it.

And hey, I won't describe how it's done, but you guys should know it's perfectly possible to have a character in a guild, running around under their real undisguised name on a daily basis, whose real name does not appear on the guild roster at all. As long as you use a different character to scope things out and pick your spots, you can harrass a guild from the inside forever. Try to see how many other people they kick out before they get you by process of elimination!

 

[Zyon Rockler]

One of the things that I don't understand is why no one has any common sense as far as from a business stand point. If you're running a business, you don't want to separate your customers because of their color or where they come from or because they're different in some way because they're the ones who make your business grow. The fact that they are different is what helps to build your customers because they can relate with people in ways you cannot and they become an extension of who you are. If the system says that you must survive on your own then it doesn't care for the people that it loses and the business will eventually disappear because it will have only a small amount of supporters and even more people who do not support it. So, by knowing that this is going on, to allow it is self destruction and to promote it and stand behind it guarantees an increase in losses.

If we have a customer come into the game, we should be able to protect them, allow them to grow and create their own ideas and then let them become a contributing factor. To have a system that allows them to be destroyed or turned away or mistreated in some way, is taking to much of a chance. In fact, certain policies should be written to protect those customers, such as saying, Thank You or Please Come Again.

The guild system allows for people to decide or make a choice, to extend this choice is not a bad thing. Again, it makes no sense why others would care if my guild could protect its' people by using a system of rule or law. They can make their own rules and laws. That is what should matter. If I go to Fel and ask murderers and thieves to join my guild and then tell them if they join my guild, they will no longer be able to kill or steal and they agree to join with me, then that should be their choice.

If you want to run a guild where you allow for people to kill and steal from each other, that should be your choice. Why should it be forced onto guilds that they are murdered and stolen from. Should it not be their choice? Why should that choice be removed because others feel that it would not be right for them even though it would not affect them.

Why should I be forced to hate and not trust? Why can I not make laws and rules to protect my people and have them enforced? Why must I struggle with continued loss rather than gaining? If all guilds were able to grow then the game would be able to grow. If you want to force your guild to remain small by using power and brute strength or if you want to control with fear, then you are able to do that but why stop others from growing? Why hold back their ideas because of yours?

It would be different if it didn't affect the growth of the population but this directly affects people who are paying for a service and they should have the right of choice whether to be killed or stolen from. No one should be forced into a world where they can be murdered without retribution.

 

[Flutter]

One of the things that I don't understand is why no one has any common sense as far as from a business stand point. If you're running a business, you don't want to separate your customers because of their color or where they come from or because they're different in some way because they're the ones who make your business grow. The fact that they are different is what helps to build your customers because they can relate with people in ways you cannot and they become an extension of who you are. If the system says that you must survive on your own then it doesn't care for the people that it loses and the business will eventually disappear because it will have only a small amount of supporters and even more people who do not support it. So, by knowing that this is going on, to allow it is self destruction and to promote it and stand behind it guarantees an increase in losses.

If we have a customer come into the game, we should be able to protect them, allow them to grow and create their own ideas and then let them become a contributing factor. To have a system that allows them to be destroyed or turned away or mistreated in some way, is taking to much of a chance. In fact, certain policies should be written to protect those customers, such as saying, Thank You or Please Come Again.

The guild system allows for people to decide or make a choice, to extend this choice is not a bad thing. Again, it makes no sense why others would care if my guild could protect its' people by using a system of rule or law. They can make their own rules and laws. That is what should matter. If I go to Fel and ask murderers and thieves to join my guild and then tell them if they join my guild, they will no longer be able to kill or steal and they agree to join with me, then that should be their choice.

If you want to run a guild where you allow for people to kill and steal from each other, that should be your choice. Why should it be forced onto guilds that they are murdered and stolen from. Should it not be their choice? Why should that choice be removed because others feel that it would not be right for them even though it would not affect them.

Why should I be forced to hate and not trust? Why can I not make laws and rules to protect my people and have them enforced? Why must I struggle with continued loss rather than gaining? If all guilds were able to grow then the game would be able to grow. If you want to force your guild to remain small by using power and brute strength or if you want to control with fear, then you are able to do that but why stop others from growing? Why hold back their ideas because of yours?

It would be different if it didn't affect the growth of the population but this directly affects people who are paying for a service and they should have the right of choice whether to be killed or stolen from. No one should be forced into a world where they can be murdered without retribution.

Your guildmates are not customers. To liken them as such is doing a disservice to all those in your guild.
When you guild someone you are trusting them with something valuable. The lives and fun of the other characters in your guild. Some sort of "background check" is in order in such a thing. You don't just automatically trust random people. I wish you could, but you just can't.
No one is forcing you to hate anyone. That's a horrible way to look at it and I think perhaps you chose your words poorly. As the leader of people you have to be careful who you intrust with the privilege of being a part of your group. Think of it as being a military command. Each person has his or her duty under your command. The level of strictness to get into your regiment is up to you of course, but your people are depending on you to not recruit low lifes.

The whole point of having a guild is to have whatever personal structure you and like-minded individuals enjoy for your playtime. To guild just anyone doesn't create anything. We already choose a shard when we sign into the game. To just let anyone in with no structure or reason is already in the game. It's what we do when we select the game to play and the shard to play on. UO has brought all of us random people together to play together. It is up to us to define that further by selecting our structure and our guildmates.

There was a guild on my shard about 9 months ago that allowed alliance afk kills. When I questioned the GM about why she would allow such a thing she said "My people know the situation going in. They know the danger." So I guess it's not unheard of to just allow anyone in for the sake of having a big guild, but most of us have more respect for our people to allow such a thing to happen. In order to weed out the jerks you have to have some sort of principals. You need to have some kind of rules. You're not going to catch them all, but if you are more careful you will weed out most of those looking to do harm.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

This has nothing to do with me they are facts on how things work. I am not hating i am showing you what will happen when people are not treated in the right way. Do not use me as a way to get around ideals show me in away how treating people badly is helpful?
Show me how it helps to let people get killed and force people to hate each other?How is this trust.

You are trying to use me as way to say I am doing something wrong but you are showing nothing on what has been said.

Just using the word trust shows you do not understand what it means because you see it as something you must earn rather then something we understand. I need not trust if I know what will happen I only need to know what will happen. To say I trust it will happen in this way dose not mean I need to trust at all but rather understand why it will happen in this way.

You have your own ideal on how or what trust is it is not mine. I do not need to trust if I sign something that says how it will be. I only need to know if it was followed in that way and I can trust what will happen if it is not. This is something I know for a fact because It has been written in this way. If I say I will join your guild and not kill then we are trusting it is the right way to be. We are agreeing it is now to be that way as long as we are together. You do not have to build up that trust you have made it so it is stronger simple by becoming part of it and joining as one. It is not something that will will happen over time it is a way of giving up that time and making a choice of what you believe in And that is much stronger then trust it is faith. I can not see how you could lead if you are basing everything off what I say and not on your own words. A leader is SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IN SOMETHING and then helps others to see why.

You miss the point and you can not make any on your own and trying to change my mind is not even a factor. It has nothing to do with me we are talking about a system that is bigger then you or me one that only needs understanding not trust but love.

A guild is an ideal way of being and before you join you decide to become part of it. It dose not make you once you are in it. It has to be something much more to you or it means nothing at all.

I never said I looked at my ppl in any way the whole thing is out of place if you even had a small understanding of what I was saying I could understand maybe talking about it but I would rather not use something other then me to try to make your points please. The point is that they are part of EA then they come into the game it is not just one way to look at it as far as a guild master might but there are a lot of things to think about like the person who is paying to play a game. You can not close your mind off to other factors just because you should not think about them. When you have ppl in your guild it is ok even tho this is off the topic to think that there time is being payed for. You should manage your guild so ppl get what they pay for.
If anther guild gives them much more then just that makes it a better guild. Not everyone one thinks the same way so you must think in all ways so you can be them from all eyes. That is what a good guild is. To think about others and put them above all other things and make them part of it forever.

When you talk about guild you talk as you see it that should tell you right there you are only talking for your self your own ideals. You are not saying what is best for everyone you are saying what you think is best for you and there for is best for all. What about choice y should a guild need to trust one more then the other. I can love and trust all the same who are you to say I should only trust or care about ppl with power? That is just a an ideal and it is not mine nor do i fell it is even close to being right or good. With out using me show this in other systems and prove to how much better they are.

What dose it matter if you have your own way of doing it should that not be enough for you? Why must you try to make what I think change can we not just say both would be good have? Do you fear you are wrong dose it matter now even at this point. I am in trammel and the rules say no killing no stealing why can you not change grow adapt? I made changes and thos changes say to not add ppl in every line you add to this you see thos words just do not add ppl. That is what the system is doing to the game. It has nothing to do with me at all. It is a rule that we need to learn to live by because with out it you are bound to lose the ppl and not grow.

Guilds are defend before you when you join then you stand behind thos ideals it should not be up to others to take that away by joining a guild with other ideals. The rules and laws are agreed to before you come in You don't just change your mind as you go along. You have to have something to go by and that is what a guild is.

 

[Flutter]

I don't think we are understanding each other. (Truth is I haven't read past the first paragraph of this last post. I read the third or fourth sentence and then stopped reading)

I am going to bow out of the conversation now unless anyone else has any input?

 

[Zyon Rockler]

We do not have to understand each other you have your way I have mine Keep yours away from me there is nothing more to it. I have a right to not have killing or stealing what more should you have to add to that.

 

[Flutter]

We do not have to understand each other

Ok one more since you baited me....
This quote is why you have a problem in the first place.

 

[Viper09]

We do not have to understand each other

If two people don't understand each other than all arguments are kind of pointless. If one takes the time to understand the other then they might realize they are talking about something completely different or may even have the same point

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think you are trying to make something happen that is already there and by doing so you remove it. Dose that help at all.
Like you are saying alot of good things and you are right in everything you are saying .. Do you get this? You are you and that makes you the best.. I have nothing to do with it. I on the other hand Well I am me And you no matter how hard you try willl never beable to let me see that. Only I can find that on my own and I do not see things that way. It is nothing to with you or me. I am looking at the system like it is code and i am reading that code. I can only see what I see. That Dose not mean I am blind.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

If two people don't understand each other than all arguments are kind of pointless. If one takes the time to understand the other then they might realize they are talking about something completely different or may even have the same point

This would be true if there was only one way to see it. There are many ways to look at it tho so each is true and arguing that will not change the view of each being true. So knowing that nether should try to Argue and rather both accept thos truths as being a part of what they are.

 

[Flutter]

Help.

 

[O'Brien]

This has nothing to do with me they are facts on how things work. I am not hating i am showing you what will happen when people are not treated in the right way. Do not use me as a way to get around ideals show me in away how treating people badly is helpful?
Show me how it helps to let people get killed and force people to hate each other?How is this trust.

Yeah I didn't read past here either. We don't want a guild easy button toggle and suddenly we're not treating people in the right way and forcing people to hate eachother?

We do not have to understand each other you have your way I have mine Keep yours away from me there is nothing more to it. I have a right to not have killing or stealing what more should you have to add to that.

I think I understand you. Keep your way away from me also. The only right you have to not killing or stealing is to not join a guild that has those problems, and make sure you don't get anywhere near Felucca.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Yeah I didn't read past here either. We don't want a guild easy button toggle and suddenly we're not treating people in the right way and forcing people to hate eachother?



I think I understand you. Keep your way away from me also. The only right you have to not killing or stealing is to not join a guild that has those problems, and make sure you don't get anywhere near Felucca.

Right this is what I am saying.
See its not that hard but this has nothing to with me. I hope at least you everyone eles can see that In the code you have siad do not join a guild.. you see it right there.
That dose not mean I can not join or add ppl but it shows what you must do.
It is easier to kill a man then to save one so the easy button is already there.

 

[O'Brien]

If a toggle like this went in, 90% of guildleaders would disable PVP overnight and everyone here knows it.

That doesn't mean there should be one.

Joe Blow average member can sit here and post about how stupid lazy guild leadership should just read everyone's mind to weed out bad eggs and train forensic eval and have 24/7 emmy coverage to kick out troublemakers, but I guarantee his opinion would mean squat the minute his guildleader was staring at the "NEVER DEAL WITH GUILD PK/THIEF DRAMA EVER AGAIN" button and deciding whether to push it.

Probably. See my response above.

And hey, I won't describe how it's done, but you guys should know it's perfectly possible to have a character in a guild, running around under their real undisguised name on a daily basis, whose real name does not appear on the guild roster at all. As long as you use a different character to scope things out and pick your spots, you can harrass a guild from the inside forever. Try to see how many other people they kick out before they get you by process of elimination!

Fix that bug then?

 

[O'Brien]

Right this is what I am saying.
See its not that hard but this has nothing to with me. I hope at least you everyone eles can see that In the code you have siad do not join a guild.. you see it right there.
That dose not mean I can not join or add ppl but it shows what you must do.
It is easier to kill a man then to save one so the easy button is already there.

Well good. I'm glad we're on the same page then finally

 

[Flutter]

I don't understand why people want to be able to guild jerks (I am circumventing the profanity filter by using the term jerks).
I mean isn't that really what the discussion is about? "I don't want to have to weed out the ((jerks)) in my guild so let me just turn on a switch"
Wouldn't people just rather not have those types of people in their guilds in the first place?
Forget the switch. Just don't guild the ((jerks)) and if you accidentally/inadvertently do guild a ((jerk)) kick him/her out when they start causing trouble for your guild. Problem solved.. no switch necessary.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Well good. I'm glad we're on the same page then finally

Yea, I do not know, I hope so. I think it;s best to have it so you can change it to the way you like it that way no one has to be to blame. I would hope that when you make something like a guild system you make it so everyone can use it in the way they like to play a game. Not something like killing and stealing. I would be willing to give up so much more than that. It is not easy tho to find other things and I can understand how that would be the only way to make it fun for some ppl. So I would not ask that it be taken out all the way. I like the fact the system can be fixed I would just leave UO as far as all the work I did on my guild cause it means that much to me. The way things work now it does not work. So maybe there is a place for me and UO is not it. I am sorry I even try sometimes but I was hoping for something so much more than you can ever hope for. That is what is wrong with me dreaming and hoping for something good and safe. Maybe UO is not meant to be that place I can only wait and see like the rest.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I don't understand why people want to be able to guild jerks (I am circumventing the profanity filter by using the term jerks).
I mean isn't that really what the discussion is about? "I don't want to have to weed out the ((jerks)) in my guild so let me just turn on a switch"
Wouldn't people just rather not have those types of people in their guilds in the first place?
Forget the switch. Just don't guild the ((jerks)) and if you accidentally/inadvertently do guild a ((jerk)) kick him/her out when they start causing trouble for your guild. Problem solved.. no switch necessary.

No, all men are good. It is not them that is bad, it is what has grown inside them. We all have something and each time that small part is lost it is gone forever. We are running out of time or at least wasting to much of it.

Sure some will always be bad in our eyes but then again, is not a life more than what we are. We all die and leave here, so why should we have to be the ones to judge and is it even our place. It;s ok to play like it is but when real things happen they can not be changed, so we must look at all men as being good. What they cause and things that come from it I guess can be very bad but then again who is to say what the causes were.

 

[Tjalle]

I don't understand why people want to be able to guild jerks (I am circumventing the profanity filter by using the term jerks).
I mean isn't that really what the discussion is about? "I don't want to have to weed out the ((jerks)) in my guild so let me just turn on a switch"
Wouldn't people just rather not have those types of people in their guilds in the first place?
Forget the switch. Just don't guild the ((jerks)) and if you accidentally/inadvertently do guild a ((jerk)) kick him/her out when they start causing trouble for your guild. Problem solved.. no switch necessary.

The switch itself would be the "weeding out".

The "jerks" intent when joining a guild would be to be able to steal from and kill guild members. But if the guild would be under a No stealing/No killing toggle then they wouldn´t be interested in joining that guild in the first place and you will end up with a guild where the members don´t have to worry about being stolen from and/or being killed by their guild mates.

Which if why many of those people play Trammel. To not have to worry about stuff like that.

So it´s not about wanting to be able to guild "jerks", it´s about preventing to "have those types of people in their guilds in the first place."

 

[Flutter]

The switch itself would be the "weeding out".

The "jerks" intent when joining a guild would be to be able to steal from and kill guild members. But if the guild would be under a No stealing/No killing toggle then they wouldn´t be interested in joining that guild in the first place and you will end up with a guild where the members don´t have to worry about being stolen from and/or being killed by their guild mates.

Which if why many of those people play Trammel. To not have to worry about stuff like that.

So it´s not about wanting to be able to guild "jerks", it´s about preventing to "have those types of people in their guilds in the first place."

Sadly those jerks will just find other ways to grief. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Wouldn't it just be better to know your team?

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Anachronism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interesting .

I most be seeing things lol.. Still a good read. Thanks for the direction.

 

[Spiritless]

Eh, some of the best griefing stories come from people who have managed to get guilded and wiped out most of a guild and dry-looted them. I enjoy these tales. No changes needed here!

UO is a sandbox. It was created on the fundamental foundation that the community, by and large, was responsible for it's own policing and the prevention of issues with minimal hand-holding by the game and the devs. I personally like that concept.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Eh, some of the best griefing stories come from people who have managed to get guilded and wiped out most of a guild and dry-looted them. I enjoy these tales. No changes needed here!

UO is a sandbox. It was created on the fundamental foundation that the community, by and large, was responsible for it's own policing and the prevention of issues with minimal hand-holding by the game and the devs. I personally like that concept.

So why not leave it in waring guilds and fel guilds why dose it have to be in all guilds? You are not changing anything for your self that way cause you can still join thos types of guilds. So you can still tell stories only it will be about you and ppl like you who like this kind of stuff rather then about ppl who do not. It is still a sand box that way just that in some guilds you will not be allowed to throw the sand that is all. You can keep the same concept just make a fel rule or waring guild rule or a trammel only switch.

Then you can run guilds based on a fundamental foundation of death as other guilds base it on other things like playing the game spawns crafting events. So you can still have pvp guilds and not lose anything at all. I would hope that this is not a sandbox that forces a game style for others? I think sand means you can do anything you wish to do. That would mean making a guild in the way you see it , not having to make it the way a systems says it has to be.

 

[Spiritless]

I enjoy throwing sand liberally and without discrimination. Free sand for all.