Why are guildmates allowed to steal/kill in Trammel?

[Squidward]

Administrating a guild with any sort of turnover is just a complete nightmare in UO, in a way that it isn't in almost any other game. Uh oh, someone had some items stolen from them by some guy with a disguise kit name a deathrobe. Uh oh, someone came back from AFK to find themselves dead at the bank. Time to run down the entire guild roster and play a game of "Try To Guess Who The Sociopath Is" and hope you manage to kick the right person.

Is there any excuse for this to even be possible? How many newbs have been tricked into joining a guild over the years, only to be killed? It's just terrible and pointless.

I mean, I know someone is going to come up and post about some crap where their RP guildies all steal from each other and love it, as if that justifies every other guild in UO having to play "Guess The Degenerate" six or ten times per year, but get real. There is just no excuse for not giving the guildleader a "SHENANIGANS = OFF" toggle on the guild control panel.

Please take some time out from coding more arenas nobody will use and all that junk, and put in a Guild Shenanigans toggle. I'm really tired of having to evaluate every potential recruit based on whether or not I think they could secretly be some kind of internet psychopath.

 

[Winker]

Its really funny when the whole guild is full of Sociopaths. No one bank sits

 

[Viper09]

There are plenty of reasons why. It allows guildies to spar, practice on one another, host events. You should know the reasons why. Guild members should be able to trust one another but yes, sometimes there is the bad egg that needs to be booted. Its not always hard to find the perp, forensics ID the body that got killed, check the journal, keep a close eye out. However sometimes it takes more if the person is using incog or a disguise if a thief.

 

[Herman]

It does destroy trust in guilds many guilds have gone inactive because they dont dare to recruit new people anymore

Let uss toggle stealing killing on/off or make rank Ronin not able to kill/steal or be killed/stolen from

 

[Bryelle Vaughn]

yes, sometimes there is the bad egg that needs to be booted.

I'm a firm believer in this. One.. for your own damn protection, Tram or fel: if it's valuable put it away unless you really need it. And Two: When someone is being a jerk or a griefer guilded or not you kick their butts to the curb. Too many times people say, "Oh let's give them a chance.." or... "This was a bad rap..." It boils down to.. Was it them? Yes. Are you at least 85% sure it was them? yes. BOOT THEM. Because in the long run, this is the better choice for your guild. If your people know you aren't playing around with this stuff, trust is much much easier.

 

[Herman]

I'm a firm believer in this. One.. for your own damn protection, Tram or fel: if it's valuable put it away unless you really need it. And Two: When someone is being a jerk or a griefer guilded or not you kick their butts to the curb. Too many times people say, "Oh let's give them a chance.." or... "This was a bad rap..." It boils down to.. Was it them? Yes. Are you at least 85% sure it was them? yes. BOOT THEM. Because in the long run, this is the better choice for your guild. If your people know you aren't playing around with this stuff, trust is much much easier.

That is the easy part keeping a guild active is the hard part if u dont add new people to the guild it will fail and if u keep adding new people all the time thiefs will join and steal from u this i have seen so many times

 

[Bryelle Vaughn]

You're right. And that *is* a risk you take. It's also why a lot of guilds have an application process. The Pvp, the rp.. and the inbetween. to try and screen out the majority of the bad apples. No way to keep them all out permanently. Not unless you're psychic. Keeping a guild active though is a lot more than just adding new people.

 

[Squidward]

Yeah yeah, I knew perfectly well that someone was going to come in here and tell me that whatever myopic little use they can think of for this crap totally justifies a million ganked newbies, and a million nights of guild drama for the 99.9% of regular players who aren't "holding events" where they kill one another.

Sorry there, guy who just lost millions worth of stuff while trying to stock his vendor, but if guildies weren't allowed to do that to you then people who want to "spar" would have to take five seconds to recall to Fel or an arena, and that's just too high a price to pay.

Whatever. The developers can just take a break from squeezing out random junk like pet arenas and throw in a Guild PVP toggle on the control panel. At which point everyone will turn it on and tell the people who need to "spar" to recall to Fel anyway, but whatever.

 

[Bryelle Vaughn]

I'm trying to understand why the guy in this scenario didn't just use a non-guilded character to stock? Would that not be the easier solution?

 

[SpyderBite]

It's a slippery slope when the devs begin adjusting the system to correct for human behavior. Be a better guild leader instead of asking for a development change. Require that journal logging is always turned on for example.

My point is that there are plenty of guilds who enjoy the current system & don't experience the same problems as the OP. So, why should they have a feature taken away or made more difficult to enjoy because they are more efficient/effective guild leaders?

 

[Tjalle]

Like Squidward said, a simple toggle option in the guild menu would prolly take care of all these issues.

Then guilds who like the sparring/stealing options can still use those and the guilds who don´t like them don´t have to use them.

Sounds simple enough to me...

 

[Viquire]

Yeah yeah, I knew perfectly well that someone was going to come in here and tell me that whatever myopic little use they can think of for this crap totally justifies a million ganked newbies, and a million nights of guild drama for the 99.9% of regular players who aren't "holding events" where they kill one another.

Sorry there, guy who just lost millions worth of stuff while trying to stock his vendor, but if guildies weren't allowed to do that to you then people who want to "spar" would have to take five seconds to recall to Fel or an arena, and that's just too high a price to pay.

Whatever. The developers can just take a break from squeezing out random junk like pet arenas and throw in a Guild PVP toggle on the control panel. At which point everyone will turn it on and tell the people who need to "spar" to recall to Fel anyway, but whatever.

I don't know how big the guild in question is, but the short and simple answer is that a guild is a place wherein folks are free to interact at many levels with each other. If you have a character you don't want folks to interact with then it would be better not to guild them. If you took in a character to promote guild vendors or a character asked to join because they wanted to promote sales on their vendors to all their new guildmates, well, someone put the cart before the horse.

I heartily agree the guild system needs looking at and that leaders need better tools to grow their communities and keep them interested and active. I have been saying that for years. But not like this, and not right now. We have too little available manpower and too many pressing system needs as it is.

Build an officers core of folks the GM knows they can trust, keep someone "on call" in case there is trouble, use the systems available in the game to be a better guild leader and protect your mates if that is what you see your job as being.

Pressing the easy button will cause more harm than it will help.

 

[Taylor]

FE everyone. Use MyUO in Japan to cross-reference karma, skills, gear. Look for low positive karma, crappy gear, odd skill titles, disguise kit-generated names. Lots of ways to prevent thief infiltration (insomuch as its possible).

 

[SlobberKnocker]

do you have a link for my uo japan?

i think this happens in every guild at some point in time. our guild has had our share of the afk kill and even the old favorite '' loot all the pots out of the fel yew house'' prior to quitting.

you deal with it and move on. there is asshats in every walk of life.

a good friend of mine whos a very competent mage was once recruited by a guy well known to kill his new recruits for jolly's. unfortunately for him he wasnt aware of my friends skill and was promptly face planted at luna bank prior to being able to kick my buddy. you could hear the laughter all the way to umbra.

 

[Taylor]

Eh, looks like MyUO Japan is also down now. Back to the traditional methods.

 

[Ludes]

Sorry the OP had a bad experience...
But in my guild it is very important that we be able to spar.

 

[outcry]

Yeah yeah, I knew perfectly well that someone was going to come in here and tell me that whatever myopic little use they can think of for this crap totally justifies a million ganked newbies, and a million nights of guild drama for the 99.9% of regular players who aren't "holding events" where they kill one another.

Sorry there, guy who just lost millions worth of stuff while trying to stock his vendor, but if guildies weren't allowed to do that to you then people who want to "spar" would have to take five seconds to recall to Fel or an arena, and that's just too high a price to pay.

Whatever. The developers can just take a break from squeezing out random junk like pet arenas and throw in a Guild PVP toggle on the control panel. At which point everyone will turn it on and tell the people who need to "spar" to recall to Fel anyway, but whatever.

Everyone has chars that are not in guilds, Seriously if your in guild that does that , take another char on that same account and use it to stock the vendor.... Its your own fault plain and simple.

 

[temu]

Sociopaths, degenerates, and internet psychopaths?

I think I like this guild!

 

[Triberius]

Administrating a guild with any sort of turnover is just a complete nightmare in UO, in a way that it isn't in almost any other game. Uh oh, someone had some items stolen from them by some guy with a disguise kit name a deathrobe. Uh oh, someone came back from AFK to find themselves dead at the bank. Time to run down the entire guild roster and play a game of "Try To Guess Who The Sociopath Is" and hope you manage to kick the right person.

Is there any excuse for this to even be possible? How many newbs have been tricked into joining a guild over the years, only to be killed? It's just terrible and pointless.

I mean, I know someone is going to come up and post about some crap where their RP guildies all steal from each other and love it, as if that justifies every other guild in UO having to play "Guess The Degenerate" six or ten times per year, but get real. There is just no excuse for not giving the guildleader a "SHENANIGANS = OFF" toggle on the guild control panel.

Please take some time out from coding more arenas nobody will use and all that junk, and put in a Guild Shenanigans toggle. I'm really tired of having to evaluate every potential recruit based on whether or not I think they could secretly be some kind of internet psychopath.

How about they just do like with parties, where you get a message saying "[Character]: "I was killed by a XXXX!" Then everyone online in the guild would know, and in the event it was a lone bank sitter, with no other guildmates on they can check their journal.

 

[Merus]

I am with the OP on this one. Let's face it the whole idea of Tram was to toggle off the non-consensual pvp/stealing. Guild leaders should have that option as well.

 

[Viper09]

I will admit the ability to toggle PvP/thieving in guilds would be a good option for those who don't want to deal with it. However sparing in trammel is one of the best things about being in a guild. To turn it off for all guilds or just if they are in trammel would make a lot of people mad.

 

[Kelly O'Brian]

We live in a sandbox, ya know? Sometimes a child gets its plastic shovel taken by another and starts crying. So what? Tired of playing Mum or Dad steping in to "regulate" the situation?
Hey thats part of your jobdescription. A sandbox, not a candy store. Be happy about that! Think of the candy shop owners nightmares of sneaky little childrens hands...
What you are searching for isnt a toggle in the options but in the players brain. Hopefully that one will never be implemented

 

[Zyon Rockler]

This is my favorite topic. For a time guilds were growing because of Trammel but then people realized that they can destroy guilds. Guilds control the population of UO and the game allows for them to be slaughtered, this is the bottom line.

I could join any guild and destroy it and by doing so force people out of the game. It's another left over bug that was never fully taken care of when they created Trammel. It has nothing to do with Guilds, to be able to murder or steal, that is a left over remnant of Fel and it should stay in Fel.

Look at it this way, they have guards in cities, they're alot like the police in the real world. When you do a criminal act, the guards come and they arrest you but if you join a guild the system no longer can detect the criminal act. So, in the real world if I join a club, like a bowling league or something, does that give me the right to kill my buddies or steal from them? So, plain and simple, it's a bug and if you look at UO's Justice System, it's unfinished. You don't see the guards taking people to jail. You don't see people being fined but if you're not in a guild and someone murders you, you get a pop up that says, Would you like to report a murder. If you say yes, then they get a count and turn red to let others know but when they created Trammel they never fixed it and the bug became an exploit that allowed people to get around murder counts. It's understandable that in Fel, it did not matter but the obvious creation of Trammel was to stop PK'ing and instead what it did by not fixing it, was allow for the griefers to hit the core of UO, its' guild system.

There is no way that people should be able to go into a guild and murder everyone without receiving counts or being fined. Guilds should be able to set up their own Justice Systems and penalties. These actions should remove the people from the guild. If you PvP in the guild and somebody kills someone, a pop up should come up asking if this death was lawful. If No, then the person who killed the other person should have to deal with the punishment set by the guild and later on they could have a meeting to discuss if it was not a just decision.

Plain and simple, it's a bug, an exploit, an unfinished system that allows for griefers and turns Trammel into a joke, making its' rule sets worthless as well as a continued drop in subscriptions rather than a steady growth.

In Fel, the rules of a guild should still stand as well as Alliances. If you go into a guild that does not allow you to murder or steal from each other and they have set penalties by the law of the guild or alliance, then no matter what land they are in, they should have to follow those laws set by the guild but if they are not in a guild and they are in Fel, then they should have to follow the laws and the rules of the land and cities they are in.

 

[Herman]

Maybe part of the reason why fel is so empty today is because u can pvp/steal in tramell

 

[Viper09]

@Zyon
Left over bug? Exploit? Unfinished system? Causing subscription drops? All nonsense, it's always been a part of the guild system before trammel was introduced. It's annoying when you have a bad egg but it's none of what you call it. Lots of guilds out there have gone on perfectly well and have dealt with bad eggs easily for years. A toggle, as previously suggested, would work well but turning it off would annoy many guilds who like the ability to PvP or even spar in trammel on their own consent.

 

[Herman]

I dont think anyone ask for it to be removed a toggle on/off would do just fine

Dont think that post was directed at me but i explain my last post little better anyway
If there is no other reason to go to fell other than to become a murderer why go there if u can get all pvp action u need in tramell

 

[Viper09]

I dont think anyone ask for it to be removed a toggle on/off would do just fine

Dont think that post was directed at me but i explain my last post little better anyway
If there is no other reason to go to fell other than to become a murderer why go there if u can get all pvp action u need in tramell

Nah, wasn't at you but the post before yours. Fixed my post though to say who I'm responding to.

 

[Bryelle Vaughn]

Well for one.. if you're on a shard that doesn't war.. it makes all the pvp you want extremely difficult to get if you stay in Tram. And there's a difference between sparring with a buddy or a guild mate and actually going for the kill with another guild/faction. At least, to me there is. In fact.. for those of us who play both.. Tram is for practice.. (Or for RPvP) and Fel is for .. "Here let me kick some tukus".

 

[Zyon Rockler]

@Zyon
Left over bug? Exploit? Unfinished system? Causing subscription drops? All nonsense, it's always been a part of the guild system before trammel was introduced. It's annoying when you have a bad egg but it's none of what you call it. Lots of guilds out there have gone on perfectly well and have dealt with bad eggs easily for years. A toggle, as previously suggested, would work well but turning it off would annoy many guilds who like the ability to PvP in trammel on their own consent.

I am a guild master that had over 500 contacts on icq and had more then ten family members in my guild. I am now a man who will look at new players as nothing but bad news and will not add them. We lost and had to deal with so much you would not believe it. I had a Council who told me it was worse then a full time job. EA never gave me help to manage all the people and most of them moved onto other games that do not allow pk'ing and stealing. It may not at all had affected you but I will no longer support the game with my guild and allow for my members to be killed or deal with all the problems. This game should be fun for people. I have said it before, They should poll and ask GMs like me, who had over 500 contacts what the main problems were and I will tell you, mine were, people being killed and stolen from. The next would of been, scamming, like asking people if they could see their orny and not giving it back. This has nothing to do with the act itself. It has to do with the way people treated each other. Our average activity before the problems was about 40 active at one time and I do have screen shots.

I guess you would have to be in my shoes to understand why it's an exploited bug. You have no idea what it is like to have to counsel people after they have been killed and stolen from or what it's like to have to constantly reissue uniforms and weapons. The fact that my guild lost people because of other people killing and stealing within a guild, in Trammel, shows that there was a major problem. Not only did people go to other guilds but they eventually left UO. It has nothing to do with me, it has to do with what the system allowed to happen. Even if we just had those 500 people, UO would be that much more active and then all those people that those people knew but instead all we have is memories of when people were killed repeatedly until they finally came to me and said, Zyon, I am sorry but i'm closing my account or Zyon, I am sorry but it is to much work to be a Council Member. These are facts, not made up stories and it is my belief that what I have witnessed with my own eyes, is a very serious problem.

 

[Viper09]

@Zyon
You are probably right that I would have to be in your shoes to understand your stance. I can see how it would be very hard for guilds as large as yours. I am certainly in favor of a toggle for pvp/thieving for trammel guilds but I still think that to remove this feature without a choice would make it harder for guilds to hold certain types of events in trammel.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Sorry the OP had a bad experience...
But in my guild it is very important that we be able to spar.

^This^
Seek no further. It aint broke dont fix it.
Stocking a vendor with a guilded chr is self explanatory.

 

[Wenchkin]

If we were to totally take out the option for stealing and fighting inside and between guilds in Tram, it's going to hurt those RP guilds who interact with each other in Tram. Mine were always Fel based, but a lot of RPers tend to hang out in Tram. So those features are particularly useful for them

When I recruited folk into my guilds I had a separate recruitment guild to join them into. They stayed in that guild until we were sure they weren't jerks. The guild PKs never had patience to last a week with that system. I never set a time limit on their stay in that recruitment guild either. It was simply "till we know and feel you can be trusted" which just doesn't suit the PK or thief. They'd be anxious to get moved up to the main guild, but few lasted a couple of days when they were required to RP and hang out with us.

I would recruit anyone who seemed ok at interview onto that guild, because they couldn't do any sort of damage while isolated in that way. The only character they could "PK" was my mule who had nothing to kill for, and assorted alts I had in there specifically to see if they would try PKing. If any recruit needed sparring training, we could either join in our alt characters to the newbie guild or we'd temporarily war the two guilds to each other. But it was easy to turn war on and off at the start and end of a training session. I'd set recruits up with temptation to see if they might PK or steal - I would park chars they hadn't met and put them AFK. I had alts around the RP village all the time so there were always characters they didn't know who were in various guilds.

I never ever had a guild PK or thief slip through that net, and they certainly tried to get into my guild as they did with a lot of RP guilds. We were quite into PvP being Fel based, so a lot of trigger-happy kids tried getting in with us. My guilds never got huge, but our members were all trustworthy. So I don't think guilds themselves need modification. It's more a case of how you use them and how you handle new recruits.

Wenchy

 

[Flutter]

Because this is primarily a role playing game and people used to role play.
If someone in your guild kills or steals from you and it was noncon then complain to your GM. If nothing is done about it and the behavior continues it's time to quit your guild. It isn't that serious of an issue. If you are having a problem and your GM isn't on any emmisary in your guild can kick the person.

 

[Driven Insane]

I dont think anyone ask for it to be removed a toggle on/off would do just fine

Agreed.

Just add a toggle similiar to the one that allows your party members to loot you or not. Have it off by default so if anyone wants to spar they can simply turn it on.

Problem solved.

 

[MalagAste]

I have many things to say on this subject.

Being in an RP guild and having been in MANY RP guilds it's Very important to keep the ability to spar/war/fight and yes even STEAL and SNOOP.... in Tram guilds.

However that said one thing we learned early on in Tram RP guilds is have a "beginner" guild... in our group you start as a Squire... which means you are put in a guild that while it's part of us it's not able to really do much. While in the Squires they learn the proper ways of RP/fighting and how to act... it's also very tedious there are loads of things they have to do that aren't "fun" this weeds out those who just want to join for the fighting... those who aren't serious about RP or the guild and those who just plain want to mess with us. Typically those who aren't really into it will leave before reaching "knighthood"...

I also have a STRICT policy against Thieves. Anyone caught stealing from someone else "non-RP" is labeled a Thief and I keep their ICQ and everything just to be sure I know when they are on .... and it's communicated to the ENTIRE RP community that this person is a Thief and there will be NO interaction with a guild should they take that person on as a member. They will be peaced from any wars.... kicked from the alliance and such.

Thankfully as a guildmaster I'm very how to say it... Anal.... it's a lab thing.... And I keep charts of all members. So if someone tries to disguise themselves..... I'll know exactly who it was because the name won't match someone I "know"..... and they will get booted... Another thing you can do is quickly check the roster.... anyone on there that you aren't sure of boot them..... if you know when it happened at least you know who was logged in that day. The guild roster can be helpful.

At any rate it's good to be careful of who you allow into the guild.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Because this is primarily a role playing game and people used to role play.
If someone in your guild kills or steals from you and it was noncon then complain to your GM. If nothing is done about it and the behavior continues it's time to quit your guild. It isn't that serious of an issue. If you are having a problem and your GM isn't on any emmisary in your guild can kick the person.

We could never find who it was they can change there name and skills and then change their name back and change their skills back. So if you have 100 active how can you find the one that did it?

Lets say the guy kills you loots you dry then he changes his name. You tell the gm a name of someone not even in the guild and the gm of the guild says am sorry but no by that name is even in the guild.

Now say you remove them but they have 10 other chars already in the guild now you have only started to remove the problem and unless you remove all 100 you will not be able to stop it. So why even have a guild or add people if your goal is to remove them? So why have a guild at all why not a list a friends that meet in Trammel that can not steel or kill each other?

Does taking them out of one guild stop the problem from happening in other guilds? It is the system that is letting it happen not the guild. So they will just go and do it again nothing is stopping them. It's the game that is hurt by it not the guilds.

What is a guild for if the system right away says you should not trust anyone. I say to you come join my guild but remember no one will ever trust you. It was ok for Fel but is not for Trammel. In Fel you killed everyone and took what you wanted to. So guilds let it happen as well but then it got so bad they had to stop it. So they made Trammel a place you could not kill or steal from. The guild system was always to be a place of trust in Fel but in Trammel the rules where there to make sure no one did those things. Guilds should not be a place you can kill and then if your not in a guild you can not.. That's saying play UO but play it alone to be safe.. dose that work in an online game? Then we have guilds to join with friends so they can kill and steal from you.. what line of thinking is this? Why would people get punished in Fel for doing this stuff but it would be ok in guilds in Trammel?

The way it should work is if you kill someone in a guild you get the pop up that says, Would you like to give this person points for murdering you? That way the player can decide. It should be no different any where. If that person kills 5 people and gets counts, they should go red. You should be able to call Guards when you're attacked in certain areas. I don't see why Trammel couldn't be heavily guarded. You think it's fun to kill someone, they think it's fun to see you get guard whacked, sounds like it's even to me. Same thing with stealing, you go grey, I call guards, they whack you, take back my stolen item. That is real role playing. You don't go home with your kids in the living room and say, Hey kids, let's play murder mom and then actually do it. You pretend to kill them, that's what role playing is. There's no reason why someone's feelings should be hurt.

It doesn't even make sense that the system treats people differently. There is no excuse for it.



I do not know how to put in some kind of order and then say yea that is why its like that..

 

[Zyon Rockler]

No one is saying to remove the ability to do it. We are saying, Make people responsible for their actions. In the guild list you should be able to set penalties. Let's say for murdering guild mates, I put 10 million. Now, you kill a guild mate and a gump comes up for them, now they decide whether you pay that money or not. If they say that murder was unlawful, you pay the money. That money goes into the guild fund, on the stone.

Let's say you're allowed 3 murders and then you are removed. So, after 3 people make you pay the money and give you counts within the guild, you are now booted out.

Same thing with stealing or any action that makes you turn grey. A gump comes up that says, An item has been stolen from you, would you like to report this theft? You click yes and the guild master has the penalty set at 400 million. Now, if you do not have the funds, you're kicked out. The guild master could also set the penalty to just simply remove you from the guild. That means you kill somebody and they click on the gump that they did not wish to be attacked, then you are immediately removed from the guild. In some guilds you could click, no penalty. You could also have it in your settings so that you would not receive the gump at all.

But this allows the guild master and the guild members to create rules and set penalties to control the behavior of people in their guild and allows for them to manage people without having to do any guess work.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

Guild system is fine. If you want to know if someone is a thief you have forensic eval

 

[Tjalle]

Why do I get the feeling that many in here missed the toggle part in this thread?

I see many suggestions on how to "weed" people out and how to investigate what happened after it happened and that you should jump on another char to stock a vendor.

All of those are good advices but with one tiny, little toggle option ALL of this would be fixed.

No more wasting time and energy weeding new recruits out.
No more wasting time and energy investigating what happened to find the guilty party.
No more need to switch to another char to stock a vendor.

It WON´T change anything for the guilds that like to do what they do now.
It WILL change a lot for the guilds who don´t want to have to worry about guild-PKing and guild-stealing.

I play Siege myself so for me and my chars it doesn´t matter. But I can understand that some people who play in Trammel play there to get away from that stuff. And for many folks, if they can´t feel trust and safety, why be in a guild at all?

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Toggle is good but I would like to see something more added that fits the game to give it a feeling that can also be added to later or expand. It would not be that much more work to add something that would add that much more to the game that it has lost over the years. The guild system could be much more then it is.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Guild system is fine. If you want to know if someone is a thief you have forensic eval

If you have an open char space you can make new chars and use them so you are not a thief untill you do the hit. then you just make a new char and restone skills then put a new char in the guild and wait... It dose not matter to one doing it if they get kicked out once they have done what they have set out to do. They will mostly do the work with a stealth archer and hit new weak members and loot them dry. They can do this with many accounts and wait a long time to act so you are not able to stop it..

Reds should not beable to delete the chars if it is red. That would help stop them from just making new chars.

 

[Flutter]

We could never find who it was they can change there name and skills and then change their name back and change their skills back. So if you have 100 active how can you find the one that did it?

Lets say the guy kills you loots you dry then he changes his name. You tell the gm a name of someone not even in the guild and the gm of the guild says am sorry but no by that name is even in the guild.

Now say you remove them but they have 10 other chars already in the guild now you have only started to remove the problem and unless you remove all 100 you will not be able to stop it. So why even have a guild or add people if your goal is to remove them? So why have a guild at all why not a list a friends that meet in Trammel that can not steel or kill each other?

Does taking them out of one guild stop the problem from happening in other guilds? It is the system that is letting it happen not the guild. So they will just go and do it again nothing is stopping them. It's the game that is hurt by it not the guilds.

What is a guild for if the system right away says you should not trust anyone. I say to you come join my guild but remember no one will ever trust you. It was ok for Fel but is not for Trammel. In Fel you killed everyone and took what you wanted to. So guilds let it happen as well but then it got so bad they had to stop it. So they made Trammel a place you could not kill or steal from. The guild system was always to be a place of trust in Fel but in Trammel the rules where there to make sure no one did those things. Guilds should not be a place you can kill and then if your not in a guild you can not.. That's saying play UO but play it alone to be safe.. dose that work in an online game? Then we have guilds to join with friends so they can kill and steal from you.. what line of thinking is this? Why would people get punished in Fel for doing this stuff but it would be ok in guilds in Trammel?

The way it should work is if you kill someone in a guild you get the pop up that says, Would you like to give this person points for murdering you? That way the player can decide. It should be no different any where. If that person kills 5 people and gets counts, they should go red. You should be able to call Guards when you're attacked in certain areas. I don't see why Trammel couldn't be heavily guarded. You think it's fun to kill someone, they think it's fun to see you get guard whacked, sounds like it's even to me. Same thing with stealing, you go grey, I call guards, they whack you, take back my stolen item. That is real role playing. You don't go home with your kids in the living room and say, Hey kids, let's play murder mom and then actually do it. You pretend to kill them, that's what role playing is. There's no reason why someone's feelings should be hurt.

It doesn't even make sense that the system treats people differently. There is no excuse for it.



I do not know how to put in some kind of order and then say yea that is why its like that..

Are you guilding people just for the sake of guilding them? Is it for the numbers? It's kinda good to know people before you let them in your guild in the first place, but if they're doing this huge co-vert operation just quit your guild man. Seriously. Why would you stay in a guild if there was someone in it that was doing this?

 

[Herman]

We could never find who it was they can change there name and skills and then change their name back and change their skills back. So if you have 100 active how can you find the one that did it?

Many dont understand how bad it can get in big guilds only real way to stop it is to break all alliances kick out everybody that u dont know who they are or are inactive and stop recruit new members but the guild can only go downhill after that and all for some crappy items that most dont even care about

 

[Sevin0oo0]

Make people responsible for their actions.

If you kill another player in Tram, you should get an opportunity to gain a count - if your friends, don't report them - if it's too much trouble, kill in fel.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Are you guilding people just for the sake of guilding them? Is it for the numbers? It's kinda good to know people before you let them in your guild in the first place, but if they're doing this huge co-vert operation just quit your guild man. Seriously. Why would you stay in a guild if there was someone in it that was doing this?

Alot of them left the game not just the guild.. Some blamed the guild and tryd to do it better and found it was more work then anything. I am here because I do not give up. We had a council of trusted friends and family but when you get over the number where you can know everyone it comes down to trust. You have remember we were COS a big guild there are ppl who did not like the fact we are a good guild of good ppl and tryed to take that away. It comes down to power also and fear. If you had a big guild and I wanted your ppl I might take your guild out.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

I repeat guild system is fine. If you guys dumb it down too much the only point for guilds would be so you dont hit your guildmates during pvp in fel...

But maybe I'm biased I've made hundreds of million as a tram thief lol. I hit HHYC on atl for over 70 mil in yellow crystals one time

UWF has also been really profitable, I remember when snake skin boots were selling for like 3 mil a piece I lifted 60 of them off a UWF member in luna lol

 

[Viquire]

The way it should work is if you kill someone in a guild you get the pop up that says, Would you like to give this person points for murdering you? That way the player can decide. It should be no different any where. If that person kills 5 people and gets counts, they should go red. You should be able to call Guards when you're attacked in certain areas. I don't see why Trammel couldn't be heavily guarded. You think it's fun to kill someone, they think it's fun to see you get guard whacked, sounds like it's even to me. Same thing with stealing, you go grey, I call guards, they whack you, take back my stolen item. That is real role playing. You don't go home with your kids in the living room and say, Hey kids, let's play murder mom and then actually do it. You pretend to kill them, that's what role playing is. There's no reason why someone's feelings should be hurt.

And you just created a griefing system that will entertain people for years. Possibly to worse effect than allowing the odd kill or steal within the confines of groups that do care about their members. Because drama will happen in close knot groups given nearly any excuse.

 

[Tanivar]

Sounds like the Fel PKer 'Risk vs Reward' situation with even less risk for the thief/PKer.

Tram was intended to be consensual PvP only. Install the switch and move the PKing & griefing back to Fel where the Pkers & Thieves face some of that 'Risk' for the 'Reward' they get.

Yes, yes, yes, I know, that won't be as much fun for the PKers & Thieves. They'd risk getting thier hides killed by annoyed PvPers. Poor babies.

You want to guild spar in Tram, then throw the switches on your characters and have at it.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

And you just created a griefing system that will entertain people for years. Possibly to worse effect than allowing the odd kill or steal within the confines of groups that do care about their members. Because drama will happen in close knot groups given nearly any excuse.

I do not think so. I might not get what you are saying tho? If you hit someone that is an action you have taken what happens because of that you cuased so I can not see where it could be griefing unless you grief your self. When you join a guild you sign off on a list of rules and you should follow thos rules if you like to kill and steal you should not be in a guild that dose not like it. The system would only back that up and show ppl that it is not ok. If you are in fel you can do thos things and only have to stay out of town. If the ppl like to get murdered why would they call the guards and stop you. I would rather see the one who started it get the short end of the stick then the one who was doing nothing at all?

 

[Sevin0oo0]

perhaps a guild-wide option, to enable reporting, or not?