Devs, Give us a reason to craft metal armor

[aarons6]

i love the way the new gargish plate looks but aside from looks there is no reason to use metal armor..

metal armor should have more durability and more resists then leather...

right now valorite gives you 1 more resist then barbed yet its 3x more expensive (luna price) and almost impossible to get in large quantities (barbed is really easy to farm).



maybe this needs looked at instead of more animal graphics?

 

[WildWobble]

I Agree 100% metal armor is limited by not being medable so nobody uses it well very few use it! I say add +1 resist to leather and remove the non med thing from the game this would make all armor equal which would then allow players the freedom to make the awsome looking suits they want but wont make since they can`t med in them. That or redo armor alltogether give ring chain and plate a reason to be used like say a 5%/8%/10% dmg reduction with a +dmg taken from lightning bolt hidden mod or some such to counter the non med thing.

 

[Thrakkar]

i love the way the new gargish plate looks but aside from looks there is no reason to use metal armor..

metal armor should have more durability and more resists then leather...

I support your efforts, but adding aditional resists will not change a thing, since you can already max all resists with leather.

That or redo armor alltogether give ring chain and plate a reason to be used like say a 5%/8%/10% dmg reduction with a +dmg taken from lightning bolt hidden mod or some such to counter the non med thing.

Erm, Armor is already about damage reduction. So you want to exceed or raise the cap? Then that is exactly what you suggested.

IMHO the resist cap should be tied to the type of armor. Everyone starts with 0 resist cap. Maximum resist cap should stay at 70% (or the racial modification). And every piece of armor (head, torso, legs, arms, hands, neck) should add a specific amount to the resist cap:

Leather: 4%
Studded: 6%
Ring: 8%
Chain: 10%
Plate: 12%
Dragon: 15%

So with wearing six pieces of leather armor, one just can have a resist cap of 24%. The reason is abvious: Why should leather be as protective as plate?
A person wearing six pieces of plate would have a cap 70% (72% theoretically, but capped at 70).

 

[aarons6]

I support your efforts, but adding aditional resists will not change a thing, since you can already max all resists with leather.

yes but not really.

human armor only gets 47 resists with barbed whereas gargoyle gets 62.
you cant craft a 6 piece leather human or gargoyle armor suit with all 70s. no matter how you fit the pieces the best you can get is all 56s.
47x6 = 282 / 5 = 56.4

gargoyles get 62 for 4 pieces and 30 for the ring and necklace.
that averages out to 52 resists per piece or
52x6 = 312 / 5 = 62.4


base leather with no armslore or special material is

2,4,3,3,3 15 pts for human and
5,6,7,6,6 30 pts for gargoyle..
this can stay.

but

base plate metal now for humans is
5,3,2,3,2 15pts this needs to be bumped up to say
7,5,4,5,4 25 pts.. that would make with exceptional (+15%) and 100 arms lore (+5%) the armor having 45 pts plus the 13 from valorite.. 58..

58x6 = 348 / 5 = 69.6

you could then craft a suit out of expensive metal just right to get all 70s..
with no imbuing. (keep in mind these are averages and valorite does not add to fire.. so this suit would have to have almost all of the alrmslore + exception bonus sitting on the fire resist. you might have to even make 2 or 3 pieces out of verite.)

you could then bump up the metal gargoyle armor the same amount
8,6,5,6,5 30pts
10,8,7,8,7 40pts
you can keep earrings and necklace the same.. 30 pts.

metal is more expensive then leather.. its also much harder to get. (you have to use an entire skill to get metal and the resources are random)
there for a suit crafted out of metal should be superior to leather.. no matter how you look at it.

this should go for ring and chain as well.. +10 pts each.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I made this thread back in July.

I'll copy and paste the main post, in modified form, but first let me summarize:

The more historical reading I've done about armor the less sold I am that metal armor in particular or non-meddable armor in general should have advantages. The more reading I do the less sense that makes to me both historically and in a UO context.

Some reading I've been doing over the course of the last couple of years, about RL European Knights and their Asian counterparts (Samurai in Japan; Youxia in China; the Hindu Paladins known as Kshatriya; etc.) made me think about the debates over armor in UO we have periodically.

I refer to the debates that wonder out loud why leather and plate, for example, should be on an equal footing; wouldn't plate protect better? Shouldn't there be some kind of resist cap that's hither for plate than for leather? Etc., etc.

My own contribution to that has long been to argue that perhaps there should be a PvM-only damage absorption for any kind of non-meddable armor, and only for a complete suit of it, not stackable with the swamp dragon absorption (so it would be either/or). That struck me as a fairly easy and not unbalancing if inelegant way to make non-meddable armor valuable and useful.

While I still support that, my reading about RL warriors of the middle ages and antiquity made me realize something important and, when you think about it and do some reading, obvious. (Not intuitive, mind you, merely obvious when you really think about it.)

Armor grows out of the need to protect against weapons and fight effectively while wearing it. Plate armor, in addition to protecting better than Chain Mail, some scholars have said was actually lighter and allowed for more freedom of motion than Chain was.

(So much for the worse dex penalty I recall Plate having. Not actually realistic at all!)

But eventually arrows, pikes, and then finally guns appeared, plate was no longer as useful and it slowly died out. Though Plate was never as heavy or cumbersome as some think (most scholars appear to agree that cranes hoisting knights onto their horses were mostly a myth), it wasn't light either; there's a story about how the King of Hungary died during a Muslim invasion of his country because he fell off his horse in his plate armor and drowned in a comparatively shallow river.

So basically once they could stop wearing that stuff, once it didn't matter as much anymore? They stopped wearing it. Maybe a breastplate to prevent an accidental death from a glancing blow. And because it looks cool.

Now, let's think about a UO context.

• Firstly we have magic; often about as much firepower as a primitive gun, sometimes more.
• Secondly we have materials to make weapons and armor that are way different than anything any RL crafter of the Middle Ages or Renaissance had to work with.
• And thirdly we have things like dragon teeth to contend with. Neither RL plate nor RL chain ever had to worry about a draton's tooth or a dragon's breath.

There's lots of other differences but those will surely do as examples.

The upshot is.....Why shouldn't, leather and plate be equivalent in such an environment? Who is to say that a leather suit made of dragon hides (which do not exist) wouldn't be better than plate made from Valorite ore (which also doesn't exist)?

And who is to say that in such an environment, where arrows and swords and magic are all thrown into a mix together, some warriors just wouldn't prefer plate and some prefer leather? Who is to say it wouldn't come down to personal preference and aesthetics?

The Kshatriya, the Hindu Palains I mentioned early on in this post? They would, one source says, ride into battle on chariots, stark naked. Ditto for a similar group of Celt warriors; naked chariot riders. They chose to not wear armor at all. And this was IRL. And both groups were considered elite for their day.

Now we add to this that not everyone who knows about Crafting agrees that Leather really is superior to Plate in UO; the last few threads on this issue have shown an enormous amount of disagreement on that point.

I'll almost always, I think, support ways to customize the look of our characters, and I still like tha PvM-only damage absorption idea.

But reading about how this stuff worked IRL has convinced me that the Leather/Plate issue in UO is, by itself, just really no issue at all. What we have is perfectly logical for the unique, most definitely fantastical circumstances our characters find themselves in. And thanks to Imbuing you can have an awesome plate suit anyway.

-Galen's player

 

[pgib]

You're line of reasoning is sound in RL and could fit well in a hystorically oriented game.

I think though that the point of the debate is the mere fact that valorite is much more difficult to get than barbed leather yet the advantage it provides is close to nihil.

In game. In RL we may well call it evolution of technology, in UO we all know it is like it is because either the thing is overlooked (not so likeley, it is self evident) or they simply don't have the resources to do something about it (much more probable).

Metal has not to be more powerful than leather because it is logical but because it would add pratical use to fictional variety. Which is more fun.

 

[FrejaSP]

I agree, it had been a problem for years.
I don't know how to fix it but it's very hard to sell metal armor as my customers want leather armor.
IMO, a mage, ninja or a thief use clothe armor to be successful, a warrior and a paladin should have to use metal armor. Maybe also scala armor for mages and wooden armor for warriors.
Then we have some like archers and others who both need dex and int or str, they should be most successful in leather or maybe scala armor too.

It should also affect imbuing, the matriale should allow different caps on resist and mods for the armor.

 

[Thrakkar]

The upshot is.....Why shouldn't, leather and plate be equivalent in such an environment? Who is to say that a leather suit made of dragon hides (which do not exist) wouldn't be better than plate made from Valorite ore (which also doesn't exist)?

Ok, whatever. But the point is, that leather currently outclasses every other type of armor. That isn't a good thing and I'd like to have that problem solved.

 

[Mervyn]

Ok, whatever. But the point is, that leather currently outclasses every other type of armor. That isn't a good thing and I'd like to have that problem solved.

I use a couple of bits of wooden armor on some chars. And i win.

 

[aarons6]

I made this thread back in July.

I'll copy and paste the main post, in modified form, but first let me summarize:

The more historical reading I've done about armor the less sold I am that metal armor in particular or non-meddable armor in general should have advantages. The more reading I do the less sense that makes to me both historically and in a UO context.

Some reading I've been doing over the course of the last couple of years, about RL European Knights and their Asian counterparts (Samurai in Japan; Youxia in China; the Hindu Paladins known as Kshatriya; etc.) made me think about the debates over armor in UO we have periodically.

I refer to the debates that wonder out loud why leather and plate, for example, should be on an equal footing; wouldn't plate protect better? Shouldn't there be some kind of resist cap that's hither for plate than for leather? Etc., etc.

My own contribution to that has long been to argue that perhaps there should be a PvM-only damage absorption for any kind of non-meddable armor, and only for a complete suit of it, not stackable with the swamp dragon absorption (so it would be either/or). That struck me as a fairly easy and not unbalancing if inelegant way to make non-meddable armor valuable and useful.

While I still support that, my reading about RL warriors of the middle ages and antiquity made me realize something important and, when you think about it and do some reading, obvious. (Not intuitive, mind you, merely obvious when you really think about it.)

Armor grows out of the need to protect against weapons and fight effectively while wearing it. Plate armor, in addition to protecting better than Chain Mail, some scholars have said was actually lighter and allowed for more freedom of motion than Chain was.

(So much for the worse dex penalty I recall Plate having. Not actually realistic at all!)

But eventually arrows, pikes, and then finally guns appeared, plate was no longer as useful and it slowly died out. Though Plate was never as heavy or cumbersome as some think (most scholars appear to agree that cranes hoisting knights onto their horses were mostly a myth), it wasn't light either; there's a story about how the King of Hungary died during a Muslim invasion of his country because he fell off his horse in his plate armor and drowned in a comparatively shallow river.

So basically once they could stop wearing that stuff, once it didn't matter as much anymore? They stopped wearing it. Maybe a breastplate to prevent an accidental death from a glancing blow. And because it looks cool.

Now, let's think about a UO context.

• Firstly we have magic; often about as much firepower as a primitive gun, sometimes more.
• Secondly we have materials to make weapons and armor that are way different than anything any RL crafter of the Middle Ages or Renaissance had to work with.
• And thirdly we have things like dragon teeth to contend with. Neither RL plate nor RL chain ever had to worry about a draton's tooth or a dragon's breath.

There's lots of other differences but those will surely do as examples.

The upshot is.....Why shouldn't, leather and plate be equivalent in such an environment? Who is to say that a leather suit made of dragon hides (which do not exist) wouldn't be better than plate made from Valorite ore (which also doesn't exist)?

And who is to say that in such an environment, where arrows and swords and magic are all thrown into a mix together, some warriors just wouldn't prefer plate and some prefer leather? Who is to say it wouldn't come down to personal preference and aesthetics?

The Kshatriya, the Hindu Palains I mentioned early on in this post? They would, one source says, ride into battle on chariots, stark naked. Ditto for a similar group of Celt warriors; naked chariot riders. They chose to not wear armor at all. And this was IRL. And both groups were considered elite for their day.

Now we add to this that not everyone who knows about Crafting agrees that Leather really is superior to Plate in UO; the last few threads on this issue have shown an enormous amount of disagreement on that point.

I'll almost always, I think, support ways to customize the look of our characters, and I still like tha PvM-only damage absorption idea.

But reading about how this stuff worked IRL has convinced me that the Leather/Plate issue in UO is, by itself, just really no issue at all. What we have is perfectly logical for the unique, most definitely fantastical circumstances our characters find themselves in. And thanks to Imbuing you can have an awesome plate suit anyway.

-Galen's player

im not saying to nerf leather.. im saying armor made from metal should get a 2% buff in each resist.. its not much to ask for.
making a suit of armor out of the best metal in the game should give you the best suit..

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

The problem with using real life an a comparison is that UO is a GAME. As such, as much as, if not all material and equipment should be potentially useful. Class/Level-based games do this by restricting classes to the types of armor they can wear (mage-cloth, hunter-leather, warrior-metal, etc).

Since UO is NOT a class-based game, but an open skill-based game, it initially created this balance by creating a cost-benefit tradeoff of the various armors.

Leather was lowest protection but was lightest, had no dex penalty and was meddable/stealthable

Ring and Chain were mid level protection, had slight dex penalties, a bit heavier in weight, non-meddable and harder to stealth in

Plate offered the most protection but at the cost of being the heaviest armor, non-meddable/stealthable, and had a high dex penalty.

Then you had the "special" armors of Bone (plate protection without the dex penalty but couldn't be repaired) and Scale (plate protection, maybe a little higher, plus a protection against a damage type when a full suit was present, was harder to make and couldn't be recycled)

Because of this cost-benefit ratio, people came up with specialty suits based on the type of character they were playing... mage suits, light dexxer suits, heavy dexxer suits, etc.

Most to all of this was thrown out the window with AOS so that Leather became the stupidly obvious choice since it retained ALL of the advantages and even gained the advantage of being able to be maxxed out in terms of resists with NO disadvantages. Meanwhile the rest of the armor types lost what advantages they had over leather and RETAINED their DISADVANTAGES.

This is a case in which you don't want realism (unless you can show me how to fit 125 armoires in a small pouch in real life), but BALANCE.

Armor now and for a LONG time has lost this balance.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Ok, whatever. But the point is, that leather currently outclasses every other type of armor. That isn't a good thing and I'd like to have that problem solved.

That's actually been disputed, that leather outclasses other kinds of armor.

Things to note:

• Wood Armor, for example, was in vogue for Sampires at least as of several months ago (the last time I paid attention).
• You'll see how I linked to a thread in the crafters' forum about a fine Sampire suit was made from Plate.
• Some also say Plate does have more inherent resist, based on the kind of metal, than does any kind of leather. Frankly I've never looked into how true this is, but the point is that it's in dispute.
• Let us also note that there's at least two, and probably more I'm not thinking of, non-meddable artifacts that are of great use that use plate as the basis. (Helm of Vengeance and Animated Legs of the Insane Tinker are the ones I have in-mind.) Another one in common use that is not meddable (at least I don't think so?) is the Basilisk Hide Breastplate.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

im not saying to nerf leather.. im saying armor made from metal should get a 2% buff in each resist.. its not much to ask for.
making a suit of armor out of the best metal in the game should give you the best suit..

I'm saying that, after some reading about armor and its functions and history, there's considerably less basis for this position than there may have appeared to be initially.

Besides, "armor made from metal" would by definition include Samurai Plate which is already the best overall non-Imbued armor you can get and has inherent Mage Armor, which kills at least part of the point of the proposal, at least as I understand it, which is to have a point to wearing non-meddable armor.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

You're line of reasoning is sound in RL and could fit well in a hystorically oriented game.

I think though that the point of the debate is the mere fact that valorite is much more difficult to get than barbed leather yet the advantage it provides is close to nihil.

In game. In RL we may well call it evolution of technology, in UO we all know it is like it is because either the thing is overlooked (not so likeley, it is self evident) or they simply don't have the resources to do something about it (much more probable).

Metal has not to be more powerful than leather because it is logical but because it would add pratical use to fictional variety. Which is more fun.

We can have the fictional variety now: Nothing stops someone from Imbuing an uber plate suit, for whatever reasons you wish. (Aesthetic, RolePlaying, etc.)

Proposals to "make plate worth it" usually assume, sometimes implicitly sometimes explicitly, that heavier and more metal armor should provide better protection. And I'm saying this hasn't always been the case IRL, and there's no good reason to think it should be the case in an environment like UO.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I don't really see how favoring Plate (or non-meddable armor generally, or metal armor generally) would really restore any balance.

Consider how long in our game's history the "new leathers" have been around. Almost from the start, those armors provided protection superior to many, but not all, metal armors and had no dex penalty.

Consider further that in the old days and now the best protection came from throwing together disparate pieces of armor one found. An old guildmate of mine was able to consistently get much better Armor Ratings from armor thrown together from looted leather pieces than was my guildmistress at the time, who consistently wore a full suit of GM made Plate.

-Galen's player

...

The problem with using real life an a comparison is that UO is a GAME. As such, as much as, if not all material and equipment should be potentially useful. Class/Level-based games do this by restricting classes to the types of armor they can wear (mage-cloth, hunter-leather, warrior-metal, etc).

Since UO is NOT a class-based game, but an open skill-based game, it initially created this balance by creating a cost-benefit tradeoff of the various armors.

Leather was lowest protection but was lightest, had no dex penalty and was meddable/stealthable

Ring and Chain were mid level protection, had slight dex penalties, a bit heavier in weight, non-meddable and harder to stealth in

Plate offered the most protection but at the cost of being the heaviest armor, non-meddable/stealthable, and had a high dex penalty.

Then you had the "special" armors of Bone (plate protection without the dex penalty but couldn't be repaired) and Scale (plate protection, maybe a little higher, plus a protection against a damage type when a full suit was present, was harder to make and couldn't be recycled)

Because of this cost-benefit ratio, people came up with specialty suits based on the type of character they were playing... mage suits, light dexxer suits, heavy dexxer suits, etc.

Most to all of this was thrown out the window with AOS so that Leather became the stupidly obvious choice since it retained ALL of the advantages and even gained the advantage of being able to be maxxed out in terms of resists with NO disadvantages. Meanwhile the rest of the armor types lost what advantages they had over leather and RETAINED their DISADVANTAGES.

This is a case in which you don't want realism (unless you can show me how to fit 125 armoires in a small pouch in real life), but BALANCE.

Armor now and for a LONG time has lost this balance.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

The thing is that you're looking at it from a different perspective. Most people ingame are going to set up the most efficient suit of armor possible which means the most and highest mods with the fewest drawbacks.

Because of this, there's no reason to NOT use leather over anything else. It can max out resists, it's the lightest material, and it gets an automatic free mod that has to be put on EVERY OTHER type of armor to work, thus giving Leather an extra mod slot AND 100 imbuing points (Mage Armor).

What people are looking for is a return to a cost-benefit system as well as the standardized fantasy RPG system of armor in which cloth/leather is lighter and thus not as protective as metal/scale. They're not looking at "reality" which of course the best armor is not getting hit in the first place... which doesn't really work in RNG-based melee combat, they're looking at the way armor has worked for DECADES in RPG-based systems going all the way back to DND pencil and paper.

In more direct terms in UO, metalsmiths are looking to do more with metal armor than making it to fill a BOD (which again, thanks to the changes with AOS and imbuing has effectively limited smithing to doing).

In short, people need a gameplay reason to use metal armor and it's simply not there.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Mage Armor is a free property on Samurai Plate. It's inherent and the other properties you get from, for example, Valorite and the use of Valorite Hammers are over and on top of it.

How that impacts Imbuing intensities I don't know, but I think you see the point: Some of the best armor in the game, especially if you want to specify "best non-Imbued armor," is already metal and is, specifically, a form of Plate.

No drawbacks there unless you count the Strength requirement which is really only a drawback if you have a warrior with comparatively low strength and no Resist Spells and fight Dread Horn.

And then there's the fact that, the last few times this issue has been discussed, some have said that metal already comes with certain resist bonuses. (Or, certain resist bonuses come from runic hammers; or certain metals; I forget....You get the idea either way.)

Arguably there has not been a game mechanics reason to wear plate since the introduction of the new leathers, when it became possible to get high-end protection with no dex penalty. (And, again, I must point out that the dex penalty was, according to my reading, always done in a way that made little fictional or logical sense: Plate actually allowed more maneuverability than did Chain IRL, because Plate was fitted and was lighter, so the dex penalty would logically have been smaller.)

And, finally, again, IRL once everyone got a gun armor became progressively less useful. And in UO there's a lot of spell casters running around that are probably at least as powerful as a dude with a musket or a primitive handfun.

I continue to support the idea of a PvM-only damage absorption for wearing an entire suit of non-meddable armor. It is fictionally justifiable (if only barely), it is inelegant (a "hack" "solution" to a problem that isn't really a problem to begin with), and it allows warriors the option of maximum PvM efficiency without having to use a Swamp Dragon. The absorption would be roughly equivalent to that one can get with either a barded Swamp Dragon or a Chief P's Dragon, and would not be stackable with a Swamp Dragon's absorption.

Under this system, a Knight can challenge a Greater Dragon in full plate, astride a Charger of the Fallen (the closest thing we have in UO to an armored horse), using the Dragon Slayer artifact, and will probably own.

If he wants to fight other people, though, I would advise he switch to some lighter armor and a mare (I don't mean a Nightmare btw) instead of a stallion.

-Galen's player

...

The thing is that you're looking at it from a different perspective. Most people ingame are going to set up the most efficient suit of armor possible which means the most and highest mods with the fewest drawbacks.

Because of this, there's no reason to NOT use leather over anything else. It can max out resists, it's the lightest material, and it gets an automatic free mod that has to be put on EVERY OTHER type of armor to work, thus giving Leather an extra mod slot AND 100 imbuing points (Mage Armor).

What people are looking for is a return to a cost-benefit system as well as the standardized fantasy RPG system of armor in which cloth/leather is lighter and thus not as protective as metal/scale. They're not looking at "reality" which of course the best armor is not getting hit in the first place... which doesn't really work in RNG-based melee combat, they're looking at the way armor has worked for DECADES in RPG-based systems going all the way back to DND pencil and paper.

In more direct terms in UO, metalsmiths are looking to do more with metal armor than making it to fill a BOD (which again, thanks to the changes with AOS and imbuing has effectively limited smithing to doing).

In short, people need a gameplay reason to use metal armor and it's simply not there.

 

[Herman]

Someone probably already said this but to me it s simple add another mod to metal armour why not dci max 5% imbuing value 100-150

One would use 250/500 of the total imbuing value on mage armour and dci alone so i dont think it would imbalance the game

 

[Tinsil]

Each piece of metal you wear increases resist caps by 1 (Max of 75)?

 

[puni666]

Each piece of metal you wear increases resist caps by 1 (Max of 75)?

I like that idea. Gives the focus skill a bit more popularity in the dexer category too.

 

[Shiznit Bo'Bourbon]

The concept of metal armor blocking meditation is obsolete and needed to be brought to an end with AOS. That's really all there is to it. Just make all armor medable and delete the mage armor property.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

The concept of metal armor blocking meditation is obsolete and needed to be brought to an end with AOS. That's really all there is to it. Just make all armor medable and delete the mage armor property.

Assuming there is not some horrible consequence I am overlooking (*blinks*), then I, for one, wouldn't mind this one bit.

Somehow I doubt that, say, the Helm of Insight or Helm of Vengeance will suddenly become over-powering if it were meddable, would they?

There is fictional/mythological precedent for an armor-wearing Knight-Wizard. In mythology/legend, one of Charlemagne's Knights was also a Wizard who, as a mount, rode a demon that could be dispelled and summoned at will (the original ethereal mount). I'm pretty sure he wore the same metal armor as Charlemagne's other Knights.

-Galen's player

 

[lucitus]

The problem in my eyes is that i got with exact the same mana regenaration amount on items, more mana per second with mediable suits. This does not depend on the meditation skill also with 0 meditation you got a bonus wearing mediable armor and this bonus makes it for me impossible to wear metal armor.

 

[WildWobble]

i just want to see a % dmg reduction like a swampdragon in barding non cumlitive with the dragon given to all metal armor say 1-3% on each peice you wear so full suit of platemail helm neck legs arms chest gloves would give say 3% each makeing it comparable to being on a swampie in exceptional barding. say 1% on ring peices and 2% on chain. Or perhaps a reduced chance of it looseing durability something to set the metal's apart from the wood and leathers as it is now there is no point to the regular old school metal armors I will do leather or woodland the med thing is only an issue for a human the 20points from joat is nice!

Historically diffrent armors are better and worse at protection vs diffrent attack forms so makeing it like reality is just not an option it would mess the game right up and they would be trying for the rest of time to balance pvp again.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think it should be tied into skill, to actually give some type of skill bonus. Like, a stealther wearing plate would have -10 Stealth.

Also, you could take into consideration what is hitting the armour. Like, if an arrow hits plate, there could be a chance it will do no damage even if it's a direct hit.

Also, you would think if there were some type of absorbtion, it would be a calculated bonus. For example: If someone were beating you with a mace, the first time, the plate would absorb, the second time, the plate might absorb again but on the third absorbtion, it might calculate a type of critical damage, where you would then have the opposite affect and lose more damage as well as, large dexterity drain.

As leather would not have any absorbtion and would take direct damage, with an immediate consequence of receiving extra damage and loss of stamina, immediately upon a second blow, with added damage to a third blow.

So, what happens is, if the person who is hitting you misses, then it resets. They have to be consecutive but plate would give you better protection against certain weapons, where leather would not.

Leather should allow you to move quicker. For example: run away or dodge.

By simply saying, One is better than the other or equal, is not the way to look at it, even if they are, you want to understand ones advantage and the others disadvantage or neither will have purpose.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I just wanted to add, that with leather, because it would give a bonus to dodge and give you the ability to move faster, it might give a defense chance increase against two handed weapons because an axe is slow, you might be able to duck if you were wearing leather.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Sorry, but I just love to talk about armour. I was thinking about the balance issue. You can always keep the exact same balance in the game as long as you keep the caps the way they are.

Like, if you have, defense chance increase and it's set to a certain number, hard cap, then any bonuses you apply to armour, would just have to stay within that cap.

For example: If plate armour gave a defense chance increase, kind of like a spell, where it's like Bless, we'll say 10 defense increase. Now, we turn it into Curse and the reverse happens, where it drops below. So, again, you would set a hard cap or you would determine no cap.

So, the armour would give you a bonus but it would not exceed the set rule of balance. So, they could feed all these different bonuses in. It would just be up to the player to understand what would be best against certain types of weapons or what would be best with certain skills.

So, if wearing only clothing, like a robe, gave +30 Stealth it would only matter if the player had 90 skill to receive that bonus.

So, you're not going over the cap or changing things, you're working within those boundries and I think even if you added huge amounts of damage, you could adjust hit points.

Like, if you were going to hunt a Cyclops, the system might have to recognize the type of weapon The Cyclops uses in order for those bonuses to work in PvM. So, there would still have to be a set number of systems put into place that the code could recognize.

But just adding more resistance is not going to give meaning to armour. People will just use what armour is better. There has to be a real system or a reason for people to wear plate, wood, leather or whatever.

 

[aarons6]

I'm saying that, after some reading about armor and its functions and history, there's considerably less basis for this position than there may have appeared to be initially.

Besides, "armor made from metal" would by definition include Samurai Plate which is already the best overall non-Imbued armor you can get and has inherent Mage Armor, which kills at least part of the point of the proposal, at least as I understand it, which is to have a point to wearing non-meddable armor.

-Galen's player

nowhere do i care about mage armor.. its a waste anyway on a dexxer.
aslo samurai plate and regular plate have the same spread of resists.

right now as it is, the ONLY difference between leather armor and plate armor is the resist spread..
the armor itself has the same 15 base resists as any other human or elf armor..

its the base resists that need to be higher for plate. it just makes sense.

metal is metal and leather is leather..
maybe even make something like
leather 15 base resists. (already have)
studded 16 base resists. (already have)
ring 18 base resists. (increased)
chain 19 base resists. (increased)
plate 20 base resists. (increased)


and the thing that makes woodland armor so special isnt the resists its the special mod you get from enhancing it with heartwood.

 

[Shiznit Bo'Bourbon]

Assuming there is not some horrible consequence I am overlooking (*blinks*), then I, for one, wouldn't mind this one bit.

For real. Back in the day the medability issue was there to prevent one from combining the overwhelming destructive power of magery with the mighty defense of metal armors. Nowadays that sentence sounds ridiculous on every possible level.

 

[Violence]

Re:

Plate could easily stop projectiles from FireArms invented 400 Years later. Meaning, they simply dented Plate Armour. We're talking direct hits, from no great distance. More than once. Plus explosives invented 400 Years later.

Plate could safely protect even against a direct Hammer Pick hit to the Helmet although the wearer would probably need a new one, but they would not even suffer concussion.

This is with the wearer of Plate standing still. In combat, those hits would have even less effect due to stance, mobility and even shields.

Plate was as cumbersome as our Years' Special Forces' equipment.

BreastPlates worn separately Years later weren't just looking nice. They did their job. Either way I won't argue, you seem to have your own opinion.

What I will say, and that's my main point, is that different types of Armour in UO should have completely different properties - Plate(Any and all Pieces) could offer significant protection against Ranged Weapons by a Percentage, Chain should do something else and so on.

Even Dragon Armour, Wood Armour and all that should add Bonuses that can't be obtained in any other way. Add a nice tactical advantage to each, Leather is already MEDDABLE, so it's all in the same logic.

If you want to make it further, allow only Humans to wear Plate(Let's face it, anatomically Humans and Elves are the ones who can completely cover their bodies, but Elves don't have any Strong Back perks), just like other types of Armour are restricted..

And this would mix very well with increased Resistances too.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

its the base resists that need to be higher for plate. it just makes sense.

For reasons I have gone over multiple times in this thread, it actually doesn't, at least not necessarily.

*shrugs*

-Galen's player

 

[aarons6]

For reasons I have gone over multiple times in this thread, it actually doesn't, at least not necessarily.

*shrugs*

-Galen's player

why not? plate uses metal, metal is mined (mining skill).. its harder to get (randomized resources).
yes you can imbue up an all 70s suit, but you waste imbue properties on resists.. (you only get 5 added mods up to 500 weight)

right now as it is, metal armor does nothing more then cost more to make.. yes it looks pretty but since we all have to wear robes you cant even see it.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

why not? plate uses metal, metal is mined (mining skill).. its harder to get (randomized resources).
yes you can imbue up an all 70s suit, but you waste imbue properties on resists.. (you only get 5 added mods up to 500 weight)

right now as it is, metal armor does nothing more then cost more to make.. yes it looks pretty but since we all have to wear robes you cant even see it.

I have 2 of my 4 characters who don't wear robes, actually.

As to the other, well, the rarity of a material wouldn't impact one bit the degree of protection it offered when made into armor, and I'm really tired of repeating myself about why the proposition isn't necessarily logical on other grounds. Read my other posts in the thread if you really want to know.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Re:

I've seen helms have at best mixed results against hammer pikes and maces and other things generally made to rip it to shreds.

"400 years later" would presumably mean 1800s to 1900s, as the Plate we generally talk about in UO isn't Roman-era Plate but is late Middle Ages plate (unfortunately we have no Gothic Armor in UO). I've seen some television shows use plate against 1700s pistols and it works, but not the 1700s bigger guns.

And besides: In UO we have dragon's breath, dragon's teeth, and flamestrikes, none of which existed in real life.

Now, again, one can support this proposition simply because you want it and like it and it would help you. But that doesn't equate automatically to it being a logical proposition.

I, for one, as I've stated multiple times, wouldn't mind such propositions as a PvM damage absorption similar to swamp dragons for non-meddable suits and/or removing the seemingly outmoded quality of non-meddability entirely.

Sure it would lessen further the users of Focus as a skill! But comparatively few use it these days anyway, preferring to use Stamina Potions or the Divine Fury spell.

-Galen's player

Plate could easily stop projectiles from FireArms invented 400 Years later. Meaning, they simply dented Plate Armour. We're talking direct hits, from no great distance. More than once. Plus explosives invented 400 Years later.

Plate could safely protect even against a direct Hammer Pick hit to the Helmet although the wearer would probably need a new one, but they would not even suffer concussion.

This is with the wearer of Plate standing still. In combat, those hits would have even less effect due to stance, mobility and even shields.

Plate was as cumbersome as our Years' Special Forces' equipment.

BreastPlates worn separately Years later weren't just looking nice. They did their job. Either way I won't argue, you seem to have your own opinion.

What I will say, and that's my main point, is that different types of Armour in UO should have completely different properties - Plate(Any and all Pieces) could offer significant protection against Ranged Weapons by a Percentage, Chain should do something else and so on.

Even Dragon Armour, Wood Armour and all that should add Bonuses that can't be obtained in any other way. Add a nice tactical advantage to each, Leather is already MEDDABLE, so it's all in the same logic.

If you want to make it further, allow only Humans to wear Plate(Let's face it, anatomically Humans and Elves are the ones who can completely cover their bodies, but Elves don't have any Strong Back perks), just like other types of Armour are restricted..

And this would mix very well with increased Resistances too.

 

[aarons6]

I have 2 of my 4 characters who don't wear robes, actually.

As to the other, well, the rarity of a material wouldn't impact one bit the degree of protection it offered when made into armor, and I'm really tired of repeating myself about why the proposition isn't necessarily logical on other grounds. Read my other posts in the thread if you really want to know.

-Galen's player

ok since you dont believe me, would you rather have a shield made out of leather or titanium?

also.. tell me.. in the current game.. why would i, aside from looks, make a suit out of expensive valorite armor?

if you can tell me one good reason then i will believe you and move on..

i cant think of one..

it takes only a few minutes to get 1000s of barbed leather.
leather armor has exactly the same protection as metal armor. (15 resist pts before bonuses)
leather armor is lighter in weight and has lower str req.

now your turn, why would i make plate armor in the current game.
aside from looks.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

ok since you dont believe me, would you rather have a shield made out of leather or titanium?

Perhaps if it was a kind of leather that does not exist in real life, such as, oh, I don't know, stuff made from dragons, like barbed leather.

And if it was made with some kind of tool that also doesn't exist in real life, such as a barbed runic kit.

One of the key differences between your thinking and mine is that I'm using RL to show the dynamics of armor and protection, you are taking RL examples and placing them, essentially unmodified, in a fantasy context. This is, I submit, wildly inappropriate. And a tad inexplicable.

Fantasy is full of the concept of a light but strong material, to allow both flexibility and protection: The shield made of scorpion hide in the remake of Clash of the Titans, and Mithril in Lord of the Rings, for example.

also.. tell me.. in the current game.. why would i, aside from looks, make a suit out of expensive valorite armor?

I've stated this or a close variant many times in this thread: While I don't know enough about crafting to be able to confirm this....

Well, let us let the UO Guide speak for itself.

Barbed Runic Sewing Kits impart 4 properties with an intensity range between 50% to 100%.

Source: Barbed Runic Sewing Kit - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

Valorite Runic Hammers impart 5 properties with an intensity range between 85% to 100%.

Source: Valorite Runic Hammer - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

Did you perchance notice that for a good long while the most popular kind of armor to wear was Samurai Plate? This was because Samurai Plate both had the Valorite bonus (higher intensity) and "mage armor" as a free property.

if you can tell me one good reason then i will believe you and move on..

"Good reason" of course is subjective. For me looks surely are good enough. That bonus quoted above sounds pretty decent too. But one can easily take whatever I say and say "not good enough, you lose," and consider him- or herself to have "won" the discussion.

You also seem to find it convenient to ignore the fact that I've signed onto at least two proposals to make non-meddable more attractive: a PvM-only damage absorption bonus or making all armor meddable. There is little I can find wrong with these proposals, neither of which originated with me, and both would make non-meddable armor, including plate, more attractive to use.

*shrugs*

Oh well.

-Galen's player

 

[Lug]

The armor system could use a total overhaul.

Making exceptional metal armor mediable might do the trick for awhile, but the fact is the devs can design a much better system if they are allowed to do so.

Maybe it could come in the form of an expansion (dwarfs anyone - No, not the annoying LoTR dwarf!) I'm talking about D&D style dwarves that are famous for crafting magical items and armor. Ok, ok they can even throw in a belt of dwarven throwing (that allows humans to use throwing skill) and some cool throwing hammers. Oh ya, and make dwarfs sexy somehow!

I'd also like to see the removal of item properties from magic items. Maybe even using the removed item property and transfering it to another item via imbueing.

I doubt any of that will happen, but making exceptional metal armor mediable would be neat and it could be an ability gained by a quest or player event. Anyone remember the candle of love quest? Making it engaging like and FUN like that quest and I'm sure no one will have a problem with making exceptional metal armor mediable.

I think I drank to much mountain dew *twitches and drinks another*