Are the dev team not aware of the game?

[Picus of Napa]

So myself and a guildmate are thinking of trying to bang out a Lady Melisande with the new Fey slayer weapon. It's going to be a stuggle but here is something new to do. Wammy char or a sampire might just do but let me just check what the resists are so as if this weapon licks I'll bring a back up....welp it's poison as is the damage on the Defiler. Hrmm, wonder what oaks, silvani or Dreadhorn are(all fey)....all the highest resists are poison also.

Can you guys do a little research on your own game before you make a new addition to the game which seems so very odd. Nothing else in the fey area is worth killing and you have limited this weapon to near dust status from the word go.

 

[Fat Midnight]

So myself and a guildmate are thinking of trying to bang out a Lady Melisande with the new Fey slayer weapon. It's going to be a stuggle but here is something new to do. Wammy char or a sampire might just do but let me just check what the resists are so as if this weapon licks I'll bring a back up....welp it's poison as is the damage on the Defiler. Hrmm, wonder what oaks, silvani or Dreadhorn are(all fey)....all the highest resists are poison also.

Can you guys do a little research on your own game before you make a new addition to the game which seems so very odd. Nothing else in the fey area is worth killing and you have limited this weapon to near dust status from the word go.

What is your point exactly?

 

[UOKaiser]

Just means concentrate weapon is a must to repeately cast

 

[Skrag]

Melee without chiv have been second-class citizens for ages. Without consecrate you're basically utterly boned. Someone designing this went "Ooh it's an evil weapon and poison is evil!" without thinking beyond that.

 

[Nyses]

So myself and a guildmate are thinking of trying to bang out a Lady Melisande with the new Fey slayer weapon. It's going to be a stuggle but here is something new to do. Wammy char or a sampire might just do but let me just check what the resists are so as if this weapon licks I'll bring a back up....welp it's poison as is the damage on the Defiler. Hrmm, wonder what oaks, silvani or Dreadhorn are(all fey)....all the highest resists are poison also.

Can you guys do a little research on your own game before you make a new addition to the game which seems so very odd. Nothing else in the fey area is worth killing and you have limited this weapon to near dust status from the word go.

What is your point exactly?

I believe he is saying that the devs put really really stupid combinations on the artifact weapons.

Here is a thought though, try using a Bane focus crystal on one of the weapons, as it will turn all the damage to physical. It will still show 100% poison, but it will be physical.

 

[yars]

not to mention it has weird mods, most all fey have high resists and magic resist skill is over 110.
would have been great to add mana leech.
hell would have been great to fey slayer to the imbue menu too but i guess thats just being greedy

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

So myself and a guildmate are thinking of trying to bang out a Lady Melisande with the new Fey slayer weapon. It's going to be a stuggle but here is something new to do. Wammy char or a sampire might just do but let me just check what the resists are so as if this weapon licks I'll bring a back up....welp it's poison as is the damage on the Defiler. Hrmm, wonder what oaks, silvani or Dreadhorn are(all fey)....all the highest resists are poison also.

Can you guys do a little research on your own game before you make a new addition to the game which seems so very odd. Nothing else in the fey area is worth killing and you have limited this weapon to near dust status from the word go.

Lady Melisande - Hunter's Guide - UO Stratics

See "related to" & "slayer weapon"

 

[Picus of Napa]

Lady Melisande - Hunter's Guide - UO Stratics

See "related to" & "slayer weapon"

Fey Slayer - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

This handy and nearly unknown web site even lists more information then that wicked one you did....wow.

 

[Warpig Inc]

They stepped on it years ago with the recipe undead slayer bow. 100% cold damage. Sure after it was plugged in they giggle like little school girls.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Cal had no idea what a sampire was until last summer.

Logrus is the only Dev to admit to playing. rolleyes:

Not only do they not know this game or its history, they are willfully ignorant of what the players actually want/think.

 

[G.v.P]

So myself and a guildmate are thinking of trying to bang out a Lady Melisande with the new Fey slayer weapon [...] welp it's poison as is the damage on the Defiler. Hrmm, wonder what oaks, silvani or Dreadhorn are(all fey)....all the highest resists are poison also.

would have been great to add mana leech.
hell would have been great to fey slayer to the imbue menu too but i guess thats just being greedy

While there have probably been mistakes here and there, the devs don't often add mana leech to slayer "artifact" quality drops. The devs try, a little, to prevent sampire/wammy builds from using those items, I've always assumed, by not including mana leech ... of course, the wammy should be able to use that katana well given constant consecrate, as UOKaiser suggests.

Try using a Bane focus crystal on one of the weapons, as it will turn all the damage to physical. It will still show 100% poison, but it will be physical.

Good idea only problem with that is it'll break in maybe 2.5 years ;P but still a good idea. Still, consecrate really is a must for PvM. I mean, it's brilliant. I'm not sure why any PvM dexxer would play without chiv since all you need is 70. it's so easy to add to a template.

Fey Slayer - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

This handy and nearly unknown web site even lists more information then that wicked one you did....wow.

As an update, for those unaware, Lady M is fey but the Dread Horn, which I think was first mentioned, to my knowledge, by user Pinco, became un-feyed somehow during a relatively recent publish. I don't think the devs ever addressed this change/bug, and I think the DH is still not fey as a result. Also, spoiler, but, Sookie from True Blood

Spoiler

is also fey, in case you ever stumble through the wrong gate .

Cal had no idea what a sampire was until last summer.

Logrus is the only Dev to admit to playing. rolleyes:

Not only do they not know this game or its history, they are willfully ignorant of what the players actually want/think.

I'm pretty sure Cal played a Garg thrower on some shard. Not sure. I think Leurocian played on a shard too? Hopefully when they add full function to the arenas the devs will come out to play

 

[Just Do It]

Cal had no idea what a sampire was until last summer.

Logrus is the only Dev to admit to playing. rolleyes:

Not only do they not know this game or its history, they are willfully ignorant of what the players actually want/think.

This!

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Cal had no idea what a sampire was until last summer.

Logrus is the only Dev to admit to playing. rolleyes:

Not only do they not know this game or its history, they are willfully ignorant of what the players actually want/think.

There are a few of them who play... Logrus is just the only one who is actively interacting with us when it comes to playing, I wont say all of them do, but if I am not mistaken 3 of them play....

BUT you have to consider, if even 1 of them plays....how the hell does some of this stuff happen, they keep him out of the loop? lol.

 

[canary]

Well, Mesanna plays, though I'm guessing that has taken a back seat to all the stuff she has to do for others in game.

 

[canary]

Cal had no idea what a sampire was until last summer.

Yeah. I think Cal's posts and when I've seen him on videos make it pretty clear to ME he has no grasp of what the game is about or what players want. Which, as a producer, is pretty pathetic.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Yeah. I think Cal's posts and when I've seen him on videos make it pretty clear to ME he has no grasp of what the game is about or what players want. Which, as a producer, is pretty pathetic.

I agree but this is what happens when you have random people put into positions. He may or may not be a good producer, but his skills do us no good when he has not the faintest idea of how our game works.

Edit: Although I guess we could argue that by now he should have learned something....

 

[Pinco]

the only wrong thing they do with fey slayer is not to make it imbueable...
They has a really bad taste for melee weapons... I think that excluding the soulseeker the rest of the weapon arties are just for collection... at least for pvm, but probably for pvp too

 

[Babble]

Maybe they don't want to introduce overpowered weapons?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Maybe they don't want to introduce overpowered weapons?

I understand that, but uh....why bother at all if you can imbue something better every time. While I don't mind fey slayer not being a prop to imbue, as We need more props which can not be imbued (you know...give point to actually doing things) I have to say making it 100% poison damage is more than killing the weapons usage.... not overpowered is ok, useless on the other hand is not ok.

 

[Pinco]

Maybe they don't want to introduce overpowered weapons?

There is not a middle way? Garbage or godly?


Defiler of virtues:
Weight: 6 Stones
Fey Slayer
Hit Lightning 50%
Hit Lower Defense 30%
Stamina Regeneration 2
Faster Casting 1
Swing Speed Increase 25%
Damage Increase 60%
Poison Damage 80%
Chaos Damage 20%

Here it is how I would make the defiler of virtues:

Fey Slayer
Stamina leech 30%
Hit Lightning 50%
Swing Speed Increase 25%
Damage Increase 60%
Poison Damage 80%
Chaos Damage 20%

Is that much different? no
Is that godly? no
Is usable? yes

Want to make it better? add Hit Lower Attack 30% not Defense... or mana leech... or life leech... nowdays everyone is using the mace and shield glasses...

 

[G.v.P]

The katana is an awesome gimp wep for a noob, that's for sure. Constant speed, hit lightning, 255 dur, love using it on Origin to kill random stuff that isn't even Fey (because my only crafter there is a Tinker really, lol, and no one sells runic katanas or the like over there). I mean hell, it isn't weaksauce like a Dragon's End!

 

[Babble]

Maybe propose some Artefacts to the deveolpers with argumentation to make it easier for the developers to chose which properties aartefacts could/should have?

I suppose they have lost the overview of what is really useful and not in all that numerical nightmare

 

[Uriah Heep]

Maybe propose some Artefacts to the deveolpers with argumentation to make it easier for the developers to chose which properties aartefacts could/should have?

I suppose they have lost the overview of what is really useful and not in all that numerical nightmare

This!

It's what I've been screaming for years now. Give us back Vanq, Power, Might,...give us back Fortification, hardening, Invulnerability, Supremely accurate, etc. Toss out the damned calculators fer cryin' out loud. Give us back AR ratings, they made an initial step on the magic reflect, finish the job

 

[Tinsil]

This!

It's what I've been screaming for years now. Give us back Vanq, Power, Might,...give us back Fortification, hardening, Invulnerability, Supremely accurate, etc. Toss out the damned calculators fer cryin' out loud. Give us back AR ratings, they made an initial step on the magic reflect, finish the job

Too late. Only way for this is to go the Classic Client way.. which I'm still not convinced would be good for the overall health of the game.

 

[lucitus]

Melee without chiv have been second-class citizens for ages. Without consecrate you're basically utterly boned. Someone designing this went "Ooh it's an evil weapon and poison is evil!" without thinking beyond that.

You have to craft the right weapons if you want to play without. I remember times i had such weapons because of the less mana consume and the lower mana leech on weapons, for example a winds end tessen is cool to slay these feys (irk, etc.).

A few patches ago you could imbue it, wonderfull weapon with mana leech and so high swingspeed, the swing speed penality of melsiande is completly ignored if you are using divine fury. But i would also say melisande is only possible with a friend as mage as dexxer.

 

[Logrus]

Personally I think any combination of slayer and leech is overpowered.
Since leech is a % damage, the moment slayer comes in thats 2-3x damage which is also factored into the leech.
A Mana leech weapon gives players the ability to get more specials in. Hence the AI/crushing blow chains. (or LS though at 3 mana cost that really isnt too much of a consideration)

Life leech is free healing so players are staying alive longer while they are hitting.

Stam leech maintains the swing speed so that their dps doesn't fall off during the fight.


Hell I could give out an undead slayer with 100% energy damage and 10% mana leech and a player could fight shadow knights in doom and keep concecrate on indefinitely without having any mana regen.


I hardly think its a coincidence that the easiest boss mobs in game are those vulnerable to imbuable slayer types.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I don't see why you would do anything other than AI with that Sword on a Wraith character.

 

[Skrag]

Hell I could give out an undead slayer with 100% energy damage and 10% mana leech and a player could fight shadow knights in doom and keep concecrate on indefinitely without having any mana regen.

And be instantly slaughtered the first time anything important targeted him, because every boss has to be powerful enough to potentially kill superdragons with 900 HP and 80 phys resist being spam-healed by their owners.

Protip: Those ever so overpowered Sampires are the only character type in your game who ever actually take a melee hit from anything without being AFK.

Come back and complain when your RNG is straightened out and an 85% chance to hit something doesn't mean 85 hits in a row followed by 15 misses where you stand there leeching nothing.

 

[Voodoo990]

Personally I think any combination of slayer and leech is overpowered.

There is not a single mele artie weapon that you can't buy for 5k other then the soul seeker, and what does it have? So making new mele drops/arties with no leach when you can make an embued slayer with SL ML SS DI for almost next to nothing is pointless.

 

[Picus of Napa]

Personally I think any combination of slayer and leech is overpowered.
Since leech is a % damage, the moment slayer comes in thats 2-3x damage which is also factored into the leech.
A Mana leech weapon gives players the ability to get more specials in. Hence the AI/crushing blow chains. (or LS though at 3 mana cost that really isnt too much of a consideration)

Life leech is free healing so players are staying alive longer while they are hitting.

Stam leech maintains the swing speed so that their dps doesn't fall off during the fight.


Hell I could give out an undead slayer with 100% energy damage and 10% mana leech and a player could fight shadow knights in doom and keep concecrate on indefinitely without having any mana regen.


I hardly think its a coincidence that the easiest boss mobs in game are those vulnerable to imbuable slayer types.

I really like that a member of the Dev team actually replied to my thread though you didn't speak to my question/rant directly. I just failed to see what the point of making this weapon nearly 100% reliant upon cons weapon to be effective. Yes you could get into wraith form and spam AI's but once in a while you are bound to need a normal strike and here this weapon seems to hit for the least effective mod possible. If this is simply trying to add to the game without making things to special then why not just give the fey slayer, limit the cap to 450 points and let us have the other 300+points to work with.

 

[Zosimus]

This!

It's what I've been screaming for years now. Give us back Vanq, Power, Might,...give us back Fortification, hardening, Invulnerability, Supremely accurate, etc. Toss out the damned calculators fer cryin' out loud. Give us back AR ratings, they made an initial step on the magic reflect, finish the job

Agrees whole heartly with this. UO became a math test with formulas instead of the game it once was. Sand box game my arse.....it's a test to be an engineer.

 

[G.v.P]

Personally I think any combination of slayer and leech is overpowered.
Since leech is a % damage, the moment slayer comes in thats 2-3x damage which is also factored into the leech.
A Mana leech weapon gives players the ability to get more specials in. Hence the AI/crushing blow chains. (or LS though at 3 mana cost that really isnt too much of a consideration)

Validates my earlier train of thought ... hey Logrus, any word on why the Dread Horn isn't Fey anymore? Or at least, last I checked, it was un-Feyed? Bug? Feature?

 

[Skrag]

Between this and the whiff of Lightning Strike hate I got from him in another thread, I really want to know what Logrus thinks melee should look like in this game.

Because without giant amounts of life/mana/stamina leech, melee pretty much consists of...

1) Being two or three-shotted by bosses designed to be competetive against a 900 HP dragon receiving constant heals.

2) Being outright insta-gibbed when that boss happens to drop the right combination of melee/spell/firebreath/whatever within the span of a single bandage cycle.

3) Carrying and chugging entire kegs of refresh potions because those huge hits devastate your stamina.

4) Or spamming Divine Fury on top of everything else to keep the stamina up, then spending half the time running laps around the boss waiting for your mana to regenerate.

5) Doing that anyway because your mana is bound to run out before the boss's tens of thousands of HP do.

Cluebat: Melee sucks in this game except for one very specific template that only flourishes because Chivalry provides enormous damage output and moots the game's entire elemental resistance system all for a point investment (like 70, tops) that would be virtually worthless in any other skill.

"But Skrag, it's Lightning Strike that's overpowered!"

Nerf Lightning Strike and everyone gives up a couple item properties in order to stack HCI and business carries on as usual. Net result, you nerfed everyone's suit slightly.

"Okay but no, it's Vampiric Embrace that's overpowered!"

Actually I don't know how anyone could say this with a straight face, but I'll bet a few people will do so rather than address the elephant in the room. Without Chivalry uber-damage backing it up, the life leech from Vampiric Embrace isn't very special. Nerf Vampiric Embrace while leaving Chivalry alone and everyone starts imbuing for life leech. Maybe orange petal sales increase. Business carries on as usual.

"Well I'm convinced, nerf Chivalry!"

No, no, no. Just spread the spells out across the skill so that there's a reason to go up to 100 or even 120. Maybe add a few spells so the gaps aren't so large. Then people start having to make important template decisions. Make the holy power blah blah of Chivalry burn people who cast them in necro forms, the way garlic burns vampires.

Then nerf all the bosses or watch melee become a PVP-only thing.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

No, no, no. Just spread the spells out across the skill so that there's a reason to go up to 100 or even 120. Maybe add a few spells so the gaps aren't so large. Then people start having to make important template decisions. Make the holy power blah blah of Chivalry burn people who cast them in necro forms, the way garlic burns vampires.

Then nerf all the bosses or watch melee become a PVP-only thing.

O.K. I originally was going to wholly agree with you....but instead will sort of add to what you said here.

I say to forget all this adding of spells, and nerfing bosses, and all that crap. First they need to make the AI USABLE I mean really, the reason the boss class monsters need hps that are in the tens of millions is because they have no tactical way to do anything, they just sit back and take damage while hitting for the upper part of 90 damage.

Also they could change how they work, force the boss classes to be stronger/weaker based on number of players in the area. Make them take less damage from greater dragons, force the greater to be nothing more than a tank, I mean obviously it should be able to do damage, but not in the amounts it currently does, I am talking DPS, they could make it attack and cast far slower, or lower its base damage output, both work. They have to adjust things so the game balances out, just nerfing the bosses, while leveling the field for melee types, over powers tamers and maybe even mages (based on the fact they get hit less and would be doing more damage, or have to deal less damage to kill it)

 

[Smoot]

So myself and a guildmate are thinking of trying to bang out a Lady Melisande with the new Fey slayer weapon. It's going to be a stuggle but here is something new to do. Wammy char or a sampire might just do but let me just check what the resists are so as if this weapon licks I'll bring a back up....welp it's poison as is the damage on the Defiler. Hrmm, wonder what oaks, silvani or Dreadhorn are(all fey)....all the highest resists are poison also.

Can you guys do a little research on your own game before you make a new addition to the game which seems so very odd. Nothing else in the fey area is worth killing and you have limited this weapon to near dust status from the word go.

One option if you dont want to rely on consecrate would be to use one of the invasion gems on it. Will turn the damage to physical if i remember right. I know dreadhorn is phys. Mel is fire so wont help there... dont know about the others.

And no, weapon wise, almost all of the post SA drop weapons make no sense at all. ... Such as the case with defiler of virtue tho not to the extent of the others. They have the stats of pvp weapons, but the new special properties are mostly pvm. And things like ssi on weapons that are already 2 or 2.5, which is pretty much worthless for a pure dexter. Maybe they are for new players who have low stamina? I dunno.

Personally im only going to use that weapon on my token paladin because of the fc, and my necro warrior also because of the fc, and because its a poison weapon so will work with corpse skin.

Oh yeah, and you can use the armor ignore and thatll bypass the resists, but then have to switch it out for the normal hits, or just have consecrate up for all but your ais.

 

[Smoot]

Between this and the whiff of Lightning Strike hate I got from him in another thread, I really want to know what Logrus thinks melee should look like in this game.

Because without giant amounts of life/mana/stamina leech, melee pretty much consists of...

1) Being two or three-shotted by bosses designed to be competetive against a 900 HP dragon receiving constant heals.

2) Being outright insta-gibbed when that boss happens to drop the right combination of melee/spell/firebreath/whatever within the span of a single bandage cycle.

3) Carrying and chugging entire kegs of refresh potions because those huge hits devastate your stamina.

4) Or spamming Divine Fury on top of everything else to keep the stamina up, then spending half the time running laps around the boss waiting for your mana to regenerate.

5) Doing that anyway because your mana is bound to run out before the boss's tens of thousands of HP do.

Cluebat: Melee sucks in this game except for one very specific template that only flourishes because Chivalry provides enormous damage output and moots the game's entire elemental resistance system all for a point investment (like 70, tops) that would be virtually worthless in any other skill.

"But Skrag, it's Lightning Strike that's overpowered!"

Nerf Lightning Strike and everyone gives up a couple item properties in order to stack HCI and business carries on as usual. Net result, you nerfed everyone's suit slightly.

"Okay but no, it's Vampiric Embrace that's overpowered!"

Actually I don't know how anyone could say this with a straight face, but I'll bet a few people will do so rather than address the elephant in the room. Without Chivalry uber-damage backing it up, the life leech from Vampiric Embrace isn't very special. Nerf Vampiric Embrace while leaving Chivalry alone and everyone starts imbuing for life leech. Maybe orange petal sales increase. Business carries on as usual.

"Well I'm convinced, nerf Chivalry!"

No, no, no. Just spread the spells out across the skill so that there's a reason to go up to 100 or even 120. Maybe add a few spells so the gaps aren't so large. Then people start having to make important template decisions. Make the holy power blah blah of Chivalry burn people who cast them in necro forms, the way garlic burns vampires.

Then nerf all the bosses or watch melee become a PVP-only thing.

i have to disagree that Melee has changed that much over the years. Like in doom, if you went with a melee character, using that really nice armor ignore weapon that had Deamon Slayer, 34 damage increase, and maybe even a hit spell, yeah you just had to rely on your passive med skill, maybe some focus, and some armor mana regen.

Then had to all bunch up and cross heal.

No character could really solo Anything, even 2 or 3 tamers could barely kill something. I get what your saying, but characters were never really supposed to be able to solo anything. And yes Greater Dragons and Sampires and now even mystics did kill this idea.

What has changed is that melee has gotten slightly stronger (no longer really need much med or focus and weapons are more powerful) but not the point where a melee character can think they can just run up and level a boss.

Basically to solo melee a boss now, you just have to joust it just like its been forever. Hit, run, hit run, heal up and get your stam back up when you need to. Or cross heal, or be healed by the mage who is out of range of the boss.

I like your ideas on chiv, it really is outdated. I used to rely on chiv not just for the 2 spells, but also for remove curse, dispel evil, and cleanse by fire, divine fury. But we all know those were made useless by the ease of incorporating EP into suits, and apples.

Really if someone takes the time to craft a large arsenal of elemental weapons, you dont need chiv at all in the game anymore. Its hanging out with camping and forensic evaluation.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Lady Melisande - Hunter's Guide - UO Stratics

See "related to" & "slayer weapon"

Fey Slayer - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

This handy and nearly unknown web site even lists more information then that wicked one you did....wow.

Why thank you sirrah!
Lady Melisande - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia VS Lady Melisande - Hunter's Guide - UO Stratics

There being some "disparity" between two expert sources ...

who to believe, who to believe ...
How to differentiate twixt two knowledgeable sources ...

I call for a dev to release a definitive answer ... which is what the OP maybe said that they can't ...

a twofer! WOOF!
Vindication for the dev side ...
++Star ratings to the better Fansite ...

The Game is afoot then !!! ... 200 Golden quatloo's to the pot (as a start) Side bet's on gentlemen's rules ...
Final decisions to be judged by local admins.
SINCE it "proves" that knowledge is power ... EVERYONE WINS (in the end)

 

[popps]

Personally I think any combination of slayer and leech is overpowered.

There is not a single mele artie weapon that you can't buy for 5k other then the soul seeker, and what does it have? So making new mele drops/arties with no leach when you can make an embued slayer with SL ML SS DI for almost next to nothing is pointless.

I kinda have a feeling that sometimes in the future Leech modifiers will no longer work with added damage from slayer modifiers or, who knows, even from Damage Increase or Lower Defense or anything else.

That is, perhaps Leech modifiers will be applied as first before any other modifier comes into place and then all other damage related modifiers will be applied ?

Who knows, but if this will happen, I wonder, will this mean the end of, for example, the Sampire and of all those templates who, one way or the other, rely so much heavily on Leech modifiers to exist ?

 

[Pinco]

10% mana leech and a player could fight shadow knights in doom and keep concecrate on indefinitely without having any mana regen.

you're funny, I use weapon with ML 68% an still I'm always without mana...
same for stamina, SL 50% and I have to keep using the refresh potions...
Why? because monster hit hard than a player and without keep the swing speed/damage you are dead in 2 shots.

A mage can do over 700 damage in 1 shot withot take any damage, but a warrior has to die because leech effects are overpower?

There is a difference between overpower and necessary:
Overpower is when you got huge advantages against your enemy, necessary is when you die without it.
So stamina leech is NECESSARY in pvm because without it you're DEAD.

I'd like to see what kind of char are you using in doom that can survive so easily without leeches...

 

[Skrag]

No character could really solo Anything, even 2 or 3 tamers could barely kill something. I get what your saying, but characters were never really supposed to be able to solo anything. And yes Greater Dragons and Sampires and now even mystics did kill this idea.

It's not even a matter of soloing bosses, necessarily. It's more a matter of... what the hell does he think melee is supposed to play like? Are we really supposed to be running off to heal up and drink a refresh potion after every five seconds of sustained combat? If I have armor as protective and powerful as any the game allows, why can't I take more than two or three hits from the boss?

I like your ideas on chiv, it really is outdated. I used to rely on chiv not just for the 2 spells, but also for remove curse, dispel evil, and cleanse by fire, divine fury. But we all know those were made useless by the ease of incorporating EP into suits, and apples.

Oh get out, people still cast An Nox even though cure potions exist, know what I mean?

Really if someone takes the time to craft a large arsenal of elemental weapons, you dont need chiv at all in the game anymore. Its hanging out with camping and forensic evaluation.

Sure, you can go through the trouble of creating a huge set of weapons combining different elemental damages and slayer properties for every possible situation. (A lot of them are going to have to be 100% elemental weapons that you find with no mods and then imbue, because it's not like there's a 100% fire damage ore out there.) Then you can look up and memorize which elements everything you plan to fight are vulnerable to and swap/carry all these weapons around. You can do that.

Or you can just throw a laughably small amount of Chivalry on your template and just forget that different elements even exist in this game, all while gaining the benefits of Enemy of One and all those other spells to boot.

Point-for-point there is absolutely nothing else in this game as powerful as the first 70 points Chivalry.

Point-for-point there is absolutely nothing else in this game as worthless as the last 50 points of Chivalry. (Well okay that's hyperbole, I suppose Taste Identification is worse, but you get my point.)

It's been this way forever, but increasingly powerful gear has only made the imbalance worse and worse, until today where Sampires are pretty much the only high-end melee template in existence.

And that's not because Chivalry is overpowered, or because Necromancy is overpowered, or because Bushido is overpowered. It's because your bog-standard Sampire has all three of them at once. And how is he able to have all three of them at once? Because one of them only requires like 70 points!

Imagine if you could cast Vampiric Embrace reliably with 70 Necromancy. Imagine if you could cast flamestrikes flawlessly with 70 Magery. How completely BONED would this game's balance be? What sort of crazy screwed up overpowered templates would we see?

Logrus here is going on about Lighting Strike and leeches and all this stuff, but all of that is just surface stuff, just symptoms. Make it so that every weapon-based character can't just blithely ramp his damage up through the roof by having every relevant skill all at once, and this other stuff will suddenly seem to matter a lot less.

 

[Pinco]

I hardly think its a coincidence that the easiest boss mobs in game are those vulnerable to imbuable slayer types.

In fact dread horn has no slayer and is the easiest, paroxysmus? no slayer and it's easy...

The new idea of uo is remove the slayers? bad idea, look at corgul. It requires an army to take it down and spend 2 hours against it could be fun the first times, but now is really boring and the result will be a total lost of interest on it.

Once a wise man said: the truth is in the middle.

We need something balanced:
you can deal high damage = very high hit points
you can deal low damage = medium hit points

seriously spend half an hour against a boss is enough

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

All they really need to do to "nerf tamers" without actually nerfing tamers is give everything important the ability to switch targets at random. That brings an end to the "get it locked onto the dragon then spam your best attack for half an hour" tedium of boss combat. Suddenly the monster is actually trying to hit you sometimes.



It's not even a matter of soloing bosses, necessarily. It's more a matter of... what the hell does he think melee is supposed to play like? Are we really supposed to be running off to heal up and drink a refresh potion after every five seconds of sustained combat? If I have armor as protective and powerful as any the game allows, why can't I take more than two or three hits from the boss?



Oh get out, people still cast An Nox even though cure potions exist, know what I mean?



Sure, you can go through the trouble of creating a huge set of weapons combining different elemental damages and slayer properties for every possible situation. (A lot of them are going to have to be 100% elemental weapons that you find with no mods and then imbue, because it's not like there's a 100% fire damage ore out there.) Then you can look up and memorize which elements everything you plan to fight are vulnerable to and swap/carry all these weapons around. You can do that.

Or you can just throw a laughably small amount of Chivalry on your template and just forget that different elements even exist in this game, all while gaining the benefits of Enemy of One and all those other spells to boot.

Point-for-point there is absolutely nothing else in this game as powerful as the first 70 points Chivalry.

Point-for-point there is absolutely nothing else in this game as worthless as the last 50 points of Chivalry. (Well okay that's hyperbole, I suppose Taste Identification is worse, but you get my point.)

It's been this way forever, but increasingly powerful gear has only made the imbalance worse and worse, until today where Sampires are pretty much the only high-end melee template in existence.

And that's not because Chivalry is overpowered, or because Necromancy is overpowered, or because Bushido is overpowered. It's because your bog-standard Sampire has all three of them at once. And how is he able to have all three of them at once? Because one of them only requires like 70 points!

Imagine if you could cast Vampiric Embrace reliably with 70 Necromancy. Imagine if you could cast flamestrikes flawlessly with 70 Magery. How completely BONED would this game's balance be? What sort of crazy screwed up overpowered templates would we see?

Logrus here is going on about Lighting Strike and leeches and all this stuff, but all of that is just surface stuff, just symptoms. Make it so that every weapon-based character can't just blithely ramp his damage up through the roof by having every relevant skill all at once, and this other stuff will suddenly seem to matter a lot less.

I sympathize with your concern about chiv. And remember you could "have" Vampiric Embrace with 0 Necromancy for quite awhile. But I have to say if I had to choose between anatomy and chiv, I would pick chiv as it offers more damage overall in most situations (rarely would it be the other way around).

And your idea for the bosses is fine as well, I gave other options aside from just toning the dragons down (look at my original AI complaint)

 

[Warpig Inc]

What is seen now is those that have a bag of unstacking focus gems and a few swords are done with the event and back fishing.



Fey Slayer and Chaos Damage are those mods they have full control of. The event weapon could of been a title with few random mods. With 450 loot cap for imbuing remaining points could be left to player choice imbuing. Could of been a random classic slayers with 25% chance of Fey instead and new way to lock that mod slot from imbue changing. Random elemental (including phys) of 100% with a 25% instead being chaos damage.

UBWS. With UBWS and a slayer compounded with it being a capped 450 loot item. With damage not counted as a mod what points are left leaves just enough for an imbuer custom touch.

Something rarely done that should be used more is the type of weapon maybe random generated. Way the Power to Mystic weapons had been random generated but with all weapon possiblities.

With future event weapons remember for the event by it's title. Add the random slayer / random Damage / random weapon type, players still be climbing over each other for a chance at an event weapon. Event could run longer before players are done or bored. Who wouldn't be still monkey piling the guards for a chance of a random generated UBWS 100% fire damage Fey Slayer kryss with choice to add two max mods or three partials. The UBWS of course not generated on bows but nightsite instead. So a possible chance for a 100% chaos damage Repond slayer magical shortbow with nightsight that can be imbued to 450 cap.



We are talking about that awsome RNG. And they desire some huge draw to events up to the last day with the only griping that event ended to soon "when is the next?" When it comes to the surprise factor who hasn't rampaged the country side for the 1 in 25000 chance for that gypsy loot.

Every event could have that insane chance for that uber rare drop. Say random weapon type title Ultimate Spear. A blank sheet that is capped at 500-550 points imbuing but with 6 mod slots. Maybe one the six slots already sucked up with random +10 skill. Anatomy - Tactics - Resist Spells.



This all comes to mind during the Ophid invasion with the berserkers. The fact that an earlier event random generated weapon had its use vs the zerks. Seeing a lucky rat with an ash enhanced Vanq Ophid Slaying Bow killing one the zerks. After done I commented "Would you say that bow is pricless?" Only comeback before racing off for more woopass "And some." Like to add came across the players years later for short talk. Told me the bow sits in his house in a place of honor even though not been usefull again.

 

[Skrag]

Skrag's thumbnail redesign of Chivalry, Bushido, and Necromancy as they relate to PVM melee combat.

Okay, this is probably going to look like one of those terrible number-crunching posts you see on the WoW forums, and I'm probably going to copypaste it into it's own thread and generally spam it around for input at some point. Fair warning given.

Objectives:

* To diversify PVM melee template construction to where there are more than just Sampires and suckers who should be Sampires.
* To do so without upsetting PVP balance to any important extent.

Strategies:

* Increase the effectiveness of high levels (100+) of Chivalry, but decrease the effectiveness of the low levels of Chivalry commonly employed today.
* Provide a way for non-Chivalry templates to duplicate the effect of Consecrate Weapon, so as to remove the requirement to stock and swap a gigantic arsenal of weapons with different elemental and slayer properties.
* De-incentivize the inclusion of Necromancy and Chivalry on the same template. Thematically, the combination makes no sense whatsoever. (Shut up about your "fallen paladin" already, fallen paladins are supposed to LOSE their holy powers.) Mechanically, as it stands, Necromancy has the leeches and Chivalry has the big damage, so Logrus ought to agree with me.

The Nitty Gritty:

Increasing the effectiveness of high levels of Chivalry, while nerfing low levels of it.

The distribution of Chivalry spells is altered so that they're spread throughout the skill, rather than being clustered toward the middle and bottom. Consecrate becomes a mid-level spell, not a low one. Enemy of One becomes a high-level spell, not a mid-level one.

Points invested into Chivalry replace Karma as the determining factor in the effectiveness of Chivalry spells. All spells retain basic worthwhile functionality even at their minimum casting skill, for the benefit of characters in training, but gaining the full power of a spell requires you to exceed it's minimum casting skill somewhat. If Chivalry actually has high-level spells, this will pretty much mandate wanting to at least GM the skill if you decide to take it.

Karma below neutral imposes a penalty upon the effectiveness of Chivalry spells, so as to maintain a thematic prohibition against "evil paladins", but being Glorious versus being merely Noble no longer has an effect. Quite simply, instead of making someone grind 70 Chivalry and 20,000 Karma for maximum power, ease up on the Karma bit and make them finish the skill if they want to max out.

Chivalry gains a new spell, one that requires 99 Chivalry the way Vampiric Embrace requires 99 Necromancy. A signature spell of a Grandmaster (or better) Paladin. I'll avoid the temptation to give it some sort of pretentious name, and for now simply call it Summon Warhorse.

Summon Warhorse requires mana and tithing points, and has a casting speed slightly slower than activating an ethereal mount. This should balance out so that, if you have FC2, it takes exactly as long as activating an ethereal.

The summoned warhorse looks like a normal horse, only a distinctive white color. The specifics of the art don't matter, but it should be recognizable as unique to a Paladin and reasonably attractive. Riding the warhorse should grant the Paladin a small chance that any direct-damage spell cast against them by a non-player enemy will be reflected back onto that enemy.

How small a chance? I don't know, maybe 10%? That would need to be worked out on the test shard. It should be roughly equivalent in all-around desirability to an exceptional-armored swampie.

At 99 skill the warhorse will remain for 30 minutes, at which time you'll be unceremoniously dismounted and need to recast. A warning should be barked overhead when 5 minutes remain.
At 110 skill the warhorse will remain for 60 minutes.
At 120 skill the warhorse remains permanently until you dismount.

Note that I do not have a Paladin with 100+ Chivalry, or even a Paladin with lower Chivalry that I would like to raise. In all likelihood I will never use this spell, so I am not here lobbying for goodies I want.

This is getting long. I'll come back and post on giving non-Paladins a Consecrate Weapon analog and what to do with Bushido later. Fire away with input.

 

[Pinco]

touching the melee template is an hard thing to do... too many skills and too much item based...
the only chance to improve the melee characters is to add masteries with really usefull abilities based on real skill (like bards).
But how? it's really hard to balance this... and a warhorse will not give me any reason to raise chivalry from 60 to 120 and drop necro... why? because a warrior need to leech to survive. No leech = death
Maybe a faster healing method could help but should be really fast and this will crack the pvp so actually I see no solutions...

 

[Skrag]

Part deux. The warhorse is a perk, your reason for raising Chivalry to 100+ is because under this design 70 Chivalry will be as worthless as 70 Magery or 70 Necromancy.

Providing a way for non-Chivalry templates to duplicate the effect of Consecrate Weapon.

Bushido gains a new stance, one which mimics the effect of Consecrate Weapon. Again I'll resist the urge to make up a name for it and just call it Consecrate Stance. A character with Necromancy and Bushido will end up using this substantially. A character with Chivalry and Bushido will scorn it in favor of Consecrate Weapon so that they can use Evasion as their stance.

This prevents the non-Chivalry template from being the "buy 10 times as much gear but still don't do as much damage" template.

De-incentivizing the use of Chivalry and Necromancy on the same template.

The beneficial effects of Necromancy forms now scale according to your Spirit Speak skill. Wraith form now requires 20 Spirit Speak as well as 20 Necromancy for full effect, otherwise it leeches a fraction of what it should. Vampiric Embrace requires 99 Spirit Speak to have it's full effect, otherwise it leeches less. Horrific Beast regenerates less if you don't have 40 Spirit Speak, and right on down the line.

Additionally, casting a Chivalry spell while under the effect of any Necromancy form inflicts damage on the caster the way casting a garlic spell under Vampiric Embrace does currently. Bark something about holy power burning your undead flesh, or whatever.

What's supposed to happen as a result of all this?

Two templates should emerge. One is simply a Sampire with Spirit Speak but no Chivalry, doing less damage and using Curse Weapon and Consecrate Stance to stay alive. The other is a Chivalry/Bushido template using Evasion and the warhorse to avoid spell damage while jousting for higher overall damage.

The Chivalry template can use Perfection, Consecrate, and Enemy of One as now. The Necromancy template can only use Perfection and the new Consecrate stance, but gains the high life leech of Curse Weapon. The former template does more overall damage, but the latter is better equipped for standing in the pocket for prolonged periods of time.

If need be, change leech properties on weapons back into a % chance (equal to their intensity) to gain a fixed amount of mana/stam/life on hit, with Curse Weapon simply representing a 100% chance to leech life. Then the amount doesn't scale based on damage and can be tuned as one likes.

Now throw in some AI that makes all bosses (or hell, all monsters period) switch targets at random intervals, and suddenly you've made it a lot more difficult for any random slob (tamer or melee) to cavalierly solo bosses. ABC archers come out of this smelling like roses what with their new horse, but at least they have to tighten up their template to get it, and they still don't have whirlwind or any meaningful AOE.

Of course, even under this design SOME people will still solo some bosses. It's unavoidable and frankly nothing to really worry about from a design perspective. What we really want to fix is the fact that currently the most survivable melee build is also the most damaging one, meaning it's the only one with a reason to exist.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

the most survivable melee build is also the most damaging one, meaning it's the only one with a reason to exist.

No it isn't.

The most survivable melee builds are Ninjas and Mystics.

 

[Vlaude]

Why thank you sirrah!
Lady Melisande - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia VS Lady Melisande - Hunter's Guide - UO Stratics

There being some "disparity" between two expert sources ...

who to believe, who to believe ...
How to differentiate twixt two knowledgeable sources ...

I call for a dev to release a definitive answer ... which is what the OP maybe said that they can't ...

a twofer! WOOF!
Vindication for the dev side ...
++Star ratings to the better Fansite ...

The Game is afoot then !!! ... 200 Golden quatloo's to the pot (as a start) Side bet's on gentlemen's rules ...
Final decisions to be judged by local admins.
SINCE it "proves" that knowledge is power ... EVERYONE WINS (in the end)

Silly Fayled. Both of those sites are UO community sites, which means they get their info from the player community, which typically does not mean a developer. UOGuide in particular is a site that anyone can edit (it's a wiki). Both JC and Petra have asked for help from players on retrieving the sort of data you've taken interest in.

Since you're so used to handing out orders, I've got orders for you! You go test out the items in question on the monsters in question and let us know your findings. No pressure though, we'll understand if you have trouble getting a group to play with on your fact finding mission

 

[Skrag]

I don't necessarily think Sampires are overpowered compared to the stupid two-shotting uberbosses we have, bosses that would otherwise be basically tamer-only content.

But I do think that the template is what it looks like when there aren't enough checks in place to keep you from piling everything onto a template.

I mean there's a reason Magery basically requires Eval, and Swords requires Tactics, and so forth. It's to take up space on a template and keep you from building a master-of-all-trades godling.

And this is what we're looking at with the modern Sampire, a template that obsoletes most others of it's type by piling everything onto one character.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

No it isn't.

The most survivable melee builds are Ninjas and Mystics.

I feel the ninja argument is only really offers more survival options when considering pvp, although I have not tried having 6fcr and casting mirror image over and over (I assume would be possible if you are leeching mana constantly) and Mystic template only shines in pairs or groups.