Pub 69 : The nail in the coffin to Thieves ?

[popps]

I read from the Pub 69 notes :

Detect Hidden Skill (Active Only)

Hidden players who have been detected will not be able to rehide/invis for duration based on their hiding skill or magery skill. Players can now only freely detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types.

.

Now, The Thief as a viable, playable character has been vanishing over the years.

Thanking to hiding and stealthing it was still usable a little.

But now with the Pub 69 changes ?

Unless I am reading it wrong, all of the announced change concerns me "Hidden players who have been detected will not be able to rehide/invis for duration based on their hiding skill".

Excuse me ?

Re-hiding after a steal was the only one hope for a thief to try survive as usually they can be killed very fastly.
Taking this away from thieves means, IMHO, sending out a message to players not to play a thief character in UO any more.....

Clearly, a thief is a weaker character since a good many points have to be invested into stealing, snooping, hiding and stealthing. Not much room for anything else to defend or attack.

The only real defense of a thief was the ability to hide right after stealing and stealth away.

"Players can now only freely detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types..

Unfortunately, if "freely detect hidden criminals" means also thieves (stealing flags one as an aggressor and a criminal) this means that the one and only defense of a thief will be gone and with it, the possibility of playing thieves any longer.

At this point, why don't we just get rid of the thief character in Ultima Online althougether ?

Bad change, IMHO, really bad change at least as thieving is concerned.

 

[WildWobble]

think you misread that I believe it means you can only be detected aka with reveal or detect hidden if you are grey or red does not mean you can't hide and run just means that they can try and find you is all.
or elf detect. then again way its written might end up being you snag something and are detected and then cant hide for x time.. hmm yeah thats kinda lame come to think of it playing a thief was never easy what are they thinking trying to complicate it further.

 

[popps]

think you misread that I believe it means you can only be detected aka with reveal or detect hidden if you are grey or red does not mean you can't hide and run just means that they can try and find you is all. What bothers me is the first part. Cant rehide for x time based on hide stealth.

As a thief player they both concern me a great deal to the point that I hardly see playing a thief any longer possible.

The incapacity to hide even for a few seconds means certain death for a weak thief.
Felucca dungeons are no recall areas and I have no doubt that a thief, after stealing without being able to re-hide right away might be dead in a split second.

But also the ability to "freely" detect a go-go hidden criminals (assuming that the theif was able to re-hide without dieing first), makes sure that even if the thief survives the time after the steal to be able to re-hide he or she is 100% for sure revealed.

Thieving in Ultime Online is officially dead with these changes.

Thanks Developers......

/sarcasm.

I sincerely hope that this disastrous consequence to thieves is a mere oversight and that it will be fixed before the actual Publish to exempt Thieves to be subject to these changes (just need to code the possess of the stealing and snooping skills as exempting from the Detect changes....)

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

I don't really think you know what you're talking about.

Hidden players who have been detected will not be able to rehide/invis for duration based on their hiding skill or magery skill. Players can now only freely detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types.

Thieves will not be detectable until they have stolen from someone and become flagged. Once they are flagged, they have to wait the normal period to hide again, or use whatever invis item they might have. This will give plenty of time for players to get away still, imo. Also, I think that the main target of this were stealth archers that might be red, not thieves, as thieves do not usually go aggro until the grab has been made.

 

[Arabella]

It is defintely going to make things tougher for a thief! My thief is in factions, being passively revealed by elves is bad enough, then add this change to detect hidden while trying to make a grab at the sigils. OH MY! I forsee many more deaths with this change.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Not that I think the changes are great, but you all do realize people will have to use detect hidden (with basically 100 skill) and then target with in 3 tiles of you before you have been actively detected and thus revealed with these penalties.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

As a thief player they both concern me a great deal to the point that I hardly see playing a thief any longer possible.

The incapacity to hide even for a few seconds means certain death for a weak thief.
Felucca dungeons are no recall areas and I have no doubt that a thief, after stealing without being able to re-hide right away might be dead in a split second.

But also the ability to "freely" detect a go-go hidden criminals (assuming that the theif was able to re-hide without dieing first), makes sure that even if the thief survives the time after the steal to be able to re-hide he or she is 100% for sure revealed.

Thievinig in Ultime Online is officially dead with these changes.

Thanks Developers......

/sarcasm.

You have NEVER been able to auto hide after a steal. You have always had to wait a good few seconds. If you seriously think you could, you have never once played a thief.

 

[popps]

I don't really think you know what you're talking about.

Thieves will not be detectable until they have stolen from someone and become flagged. Once they are flagged, they have to wait the normal period to hide again, or use whatever invis item they might have. This will give plenty of time for players to get away still, imo. Also, I think that the main target of this were stealth archers that might be red, not thieves, as thieves do not usually go aggro until the grab has been made.

I hope that the dramatic consequences to Thieves are a mere oversight that will be corrected.

One thing I know, though, if Thieves, as criminal (after stealing) will not be able to re-hide right away and stealth away they will be dead meat in a split second.

A thief has to max out 4 skills (stealing, snooping, hiding and stealthing) and has simply not much room for defense or offense.
The only one real defense was the ability to immediately re-hide after the heal and stealth away.

And even then, it was not difficult to reveal thieves as many players know.

Now, with being unable to re-hide after stealing and being easily detectable as a criminal even if a thief manages to miracolously survive for the time required and re-hide, this effectively means, IMHO, the death of thieving as a playing style in Ultima Online.

I hope it was an oversight and that thieves will be made exempt from these Hiding changes thanking to the template sporting stealing and snooping skills.

 

[popps]

Not that I think the changes are great, but you all do realize people will have to use detect hidden (with basically 100 skill) and then target with in 3 tiles of you before you have been actively detected and thus revealed with these penalties.

"Freely" means what, exactly ?

And the problem with thieves is not just being "freely" detectable as a criminal (after stealing...), whatever it means, but not being able to re-hide right after the steal.

A thief is a weak character, certainly way weaker than the fighting characters that are target of the steal.

There simply is no chance that a thief can stand up a fight with his/her targets.

The only one defense was re-hiding right after the steal and stealth away but now that seems to be gone. I do not see a thief much playable any longer, unless these changes are corrected significantly in favour of thieves.

 

[popps]

You have NEVER been able to auto hide after a steal. You have always had to wait a good few seconds. If you seriously think you could, you have never once played a thief.

It goes without saying that the line of sight has to be broken for a thief to re-hide, when I say right away, I mean past that really short period that is needed to break the line of sight. Never ment it as right away immediately after the steal. Sorry if my wording was confusing.

The announced change, instead, will make it way worse than what it is now as I seem to understand. To the point that I see playing a thief character hardly any longer possible.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I think you better go on test center and find out what this really means.
1. even as a crate thief, I know you can not hide immediately after using the stealing skill
2. This only comes into play when the thief has been detected using detect hidden skill. Note the brackets on the item, passive detect is not affected by this change.
3.This is a change to the Detect Hidden skill, revealing oneself by using the stealing skill is not affected.

This will have no effect whatsoever on thieves unless someone actually uses the detect hidden skill to look for them.

 

[Viper09]

...something tells me popps is not nor ever was a real pvp thief. No idea where he gets this "re-hide" immediately after stealing from.

 

[popps]

I think you better go on test center and find out what this really means.
1. even as a crate thief, I know you can not hide immediately after using the stealing skill
2. This only comes into play when the thief has been detected using detect hidden skill. Note the brackets on the item, passive detect is not affected by this change.
3.This is a change to the Detect Hidden skill, revealing oneself by using the stealing skill is not affected.

This will have no effect whatsoever on thieves unless someone actually uses the detect hidden skill to look for them.

"Freely" detect a hidden criminal means what then ?

To me it means an eased capability to detect whomever is hidden, if criminal.

That is, it will "ease out" the possibility to reveal a thief who has stolen and re-hidden after the stealing.

And once a Thief has been revealed with increased ease ("freely"... ), the Thief will be incapacitated for quite some time to re-hide being a criminal.
And since a thief is usually much weaker than the target, this means sure death and, hence, unplayability of the Thief character, IMHO.

 

[Petra Fyde]

How many 'marks' do you know who actually have the detect hidden skill trained?
Plus read it again. It says you can only freely detect hidden criminals, you can't freely detect innocents. It doesn't mean anyone can detect you without having to train the skill! Go on test and find out for yourself!

 

[Viper09]

A couple points here.

Not many players actually have the detect skill. Most players will see it as a huge waste of skill points.

A good thief doesn't stick around to be detected after stealing.

Detect doesn't isn't even successful 100% of the time. It isn't easy to detect someone with hiding and stealth.

And in case you have yet to figure it out as you seem to only base your judgments solely on reading and not actual play, active detect means using the detect skill.

 

[popps]

How many 'marks' do you know who actually have the detect hidden skill trained?
Plus read it again. It says you can only freely detect hidden criminals, you can't freely detect innocents. It doesn't mean anyone can detect you without having to train the skill! Go on test and find out for yourself!

I will see it on Test but nonetheless, as I can understand it now, to me "Freely" even hints to being capable to detect any ciminally flagged character with 0 Detect Hidden skill or, with a very low one.

"Free" means at 0 cost, at no expense, without burden. That is, no Detect Hidden skill required or not much at all.

Otherwise, I do not seen what "freely" means there...........

And the point is, in regards to thieves becoming unplayable, is that once detected they are forbidden to re-hide and hence become easily killable being the weak characters they of course are, as in comparison to most of their targets.

Personally, I think this detect hidden change should exempt thieves completely.

Having stealing and snooping skills should make one's own character exempt from these changes. This, if we want to at least leave thieves as playable that tiny little that they still are.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

"Freely" detect a hidden criminal means what then ?

To me it means an eased capability to detect whomever is hidden, if criminal.

That is, it will "ease out" the possibility to reveal a thief who has stolen and re-hidden after the stealing.

And once a Thief has been revealed with increased ease ("freely"... ), the Thief will be incapacitated for quite some time to re-hide being a criminal.
And since a thief is usually much weaker than the target, this means sure death and, hence, unplayability of the Thief character, IMHO.

I can not even believe this is a question, more importantly I can not believe it was included in the patch notes. You have always been FREELY detectable as a criminal or murderer. I have had detect hidden trained for years now, and know how to use it. In fact I think you were freely detectable as a non-aggressor as well, perhaps this is the only thing I am reading that is different now. Can not exactly test this at this time, since on test it should be as the patch notes say.

This will only impact you if someone ACTIVELY uses the detect hidden skill and targets with-in 3 tiles of your character. If someone happens to detect you USING the skill ACTIVELY you will have to wait a period of time before you can hide again.

Also, popps what people have been telling you about stealing is that after you steal you can not use the skill "hiding" due to the fact that there is a timer set on skills so after using stealing you can not hide right away as you will get the system msg "You must wait a few moments before using another skill".

Hope I covered everything now.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I will see it on Test but nonetheless, as I can understand it now, to me "Freely" even hints to being capable to detect any ciminally flagged character with 0 Detect Hidden skill or, with a very low one.

"Free" means at 0 cost, at no expense, without burden. That is, no Detect Hidden skill required or not much at all.

Otherwise, I do not seen what "freely" means there...........

And the point is, in regards to thieves becoming unplayable, is that once detected they are forbidden to re-hide and hence become easily killable being the weak characters they of course are, as in comparison to most of their targets.

Personally, I think this detect hidden change should exempt thieves completely.

Having stealing and snooping skills should make one's own character exempt from these changes. This, if we want to at least leave thieves as playable that tiny little that they still are.

Freely means with out recourse, so you can detect them with out being flagged. Did I clear it up?

Edit: Also you can currently be revealed by detect hidden, and if there are 2 detectors then you are screwed anyway since one will unhide you, you rehide, and then get detected again and you now have to wait for your skill reset.

 

[Viper09]

I will see it on Test but nonetheless, as I can understand it now, to me "Freely" even hints to being capable to detect any ciminally flagged character with 0 Detect Hidden skill or, with a very low one.

"Free" means at 0 cost, at no expense, without burden. That is, no Detect Hidden skill required or not much at all.

Otherwise, I do not seen what "freely" means there...........

And the point is, in regards to thieves becoming unplayable, is that once detected they are forbidden to re-hide and hence become easily killable being the weak characters they of course are, as in comparison to most of their targets.

Personally, I think this detect hidden change should exempt thieves completely.

Having stealing and snooping skills should make one's own character exempt from these changes. This, if we want to at least leave thieves as playable that tiny little that they still are.

Wtf? Lol! You seem to have major issues with understanding the game or you read so much into one word.

Freely does not mean 0 skill popps. If it did don't you think that would ruin the whole concept of having the detect hidden skill? Lol!

Freely means you can be detected, nothing more nothing less. In the same sense that murderers and criminals are freely attackable. And please, you are not talking for thieves here. I have a real pvp thief and it is clear to me you are absolutely clueless to everything you are talking about.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

You have NEVER been able to auto hide after a steal. You have always had to wait a good few seconds. If you seriously think you could, you have never once played a thief.

Yes there has always been a short time where you could not rehide. The dreaded "you must wait a few moments to use another skill" has always been in effect after actually completing the steal. But, I have always used protection and invis to get around that. Now it seems that also has to fall by the wayside? True not many folks actually carry detect, but JOAT allows humans to have a chance at detecting you even at gm hiding and 120 stealth, if I have kept up with the changes correctly on the skill over the years.


The part that worries me is "people can now FREELY detect hidden criminals". Is this the folks that have detect OR does it apply to even those without the skill? I literally ABHOR TC1 so I won't be testing, but was hoping one of you who actually like TC1 have checked it out.


I also agree the changes have been made to it all due to the stealth archers. Fine, then they should make these changes when you have stealth AND a wep skill, and leave the theives the hell alone.

*edit*

I guess this will drive the price of turkey feathers up tho
*runs off to harvest before they stop spawning*

 

[Tina Small]

I would love to know which person on the EA team decided it was necessary to make it impossible in Fel to reveal blue characters.

AFK scriptors in Fel will have even fewer worries. I've never gotten into doing IDOCs, but I imagine this change will drastically affect the ones that happen in Fel.

Seems like you'll be able to cause all kinds of problems in Fel by stam-blocking with blue characters that no one has any possibility of revealing.

All the challenge of having to coordinate with faction mates to keep from revealing them during a raid or a faction stronghold defense just went out the window. Also gone now too, apparently, is the ability to reveal blue faction mates who are actually your enemy's "spies" in your faction.

To me, this change just smacks of some dev finally getting around to playing and then getting pissed off because they were revealed by a supposed "neutral" or "friendly" character. Instead of understanding that playing a detector among "neutral" and "friendly" characters takes skill, they went the "easy mode" route and took all the thinking and team work out of the skill. All you gotta do now is put that old detector on a looping macro and walk away. Easy as pie.

Or maybe someone on the dev team just got tired of having their AFK characters in Fel revealed and killed.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Sky is falling? Again?

 

[Babble]

*mumbles*
Flagging and all the stuff that comes with it is definitely even more fubar since friendly fire was switched off.

First no harm to blue player, now no detection as it is considered an agressive act ...

Devs it is Felucca ...why mess around with flagging and game mechanics so much?

 

[popps]

I can not even believe this is a question, more importantly I can not believe it was included in the patch notes. You have always been FREELY detectable as a criminal or murderer. I have had detect hidden trained for years now, and know how to use it. In fact I think you were freely detectable as a non-aggressor as well, perhaps this is the only thing I am reading that is different now. Can not exactly test this at this time, since on test it should be as the patch notes say.

This will only impact you if someone ACTIVELY uses the detect hidden skill and targets with-in 3 tiles of your character. If someone happens to detect you USING the skill ACTIVELY you will have to wait a period of time before you can hide again.

I guess I will see it on Test server what that "Freely" really is there for.......

Also, popps what people have been telling you about stealing is that after you steal you can not use the skill "hiding" due to the fact that there is a timer set on skills so after using stealing you can not hide right away as you will get the system msg "You must wait a few moments before using another skill".
Hope I covered everything now.

Yes, but nonetheless the time required now for a thief to re-hide which, since line of sight has to be broken anyways, overlaps with the down timer between skill attempts is totally blown by the changes to the skill.

Infact, currently a thief can re-hide, if not using the hiding skill right away, with the hiding spell or an hiding potion (and then hide with the hiding skill on top of it while already hidden and then stealth away...Note. When having Protection on the hiding spell cannot be interrupted....). The Ninja smoke eggs do not help much other than at low hiding skills since they follow the hiding skill rules particularly in regards to downtime in between attempts (and if revealed it ain't possible to use another smoke egg right away.....). Therefore, if one has 100.0 hiding there really is no need nor sense to use smoke eggs, IMHO.

After Pub 69, instead, as I read it, ""Hidden players who have been detected will not be able to rehide/invis for duration based on their hiding skill".

Even though the notes specifically cite "their hiding skill" I assume that :

1. This incapacity to re-hide will be considerably longer than the current down-timer in between hiding skill attempts

and

2. It will preclude the ability to re-hide with any means (when detected being a criminal as a thief is labelled after a stealing attempt) be it the hiding skill, the hiding spell, using an item that has hiding charges, using smoke eggs...
I simply do not see the point to preclude for an X time the ability to hide using the hiding skill when one then could instead hide using the hiding spell or a hiding potion, for example.

Therefore, I must assume, that the prohibition for this change applies to any and all hiding ways when a criminal is detected.

But then, should this be the case, this would make playing a thief almost impossible, IMHO.

 

[popps]

Wtf? Lol! You seem to have major issues with understanding the game or you read so much into one word.

Freely does not mean 0 skill popps. If it did don't you think that would ruin the whole concept of having the detect hidden skill? Lol!

The way I read it, the word "freely" is linked to also "detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types."

The way I read it, is that in order to reveal non-criminals, non-murderers, and other non-aggressor types one will need Detect Hidden skill and the more the better.

But after the Pub 69 change, when it will come to detecting criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types, then this will be available "freely" which, to my understanding, means without much need to invest points in Detect Hidden skill.

If this is what will happen I think this would be a disaster for thieves and the playing of this particular style.

 

[Tina Small]

*mumbles*
Flagging and all the stuff that comes with it is definitely even more fubar since friendly fire was switched off.

First no harm to blue player, now no detection as it is considered an agressive act ...

Devs it is Felucca ...why mess around with flagging and game mechanics so much?

The only other explanation that makes sense to me is that there is a plan to eventually force every character in the game to join a faction. Doing that would finally give meaning to Cal's "wild West" comment back in mid-2009. It might actually make loyalty systems something people care about more often than just once in a blue moon. It might also make stuff like crystal portals and house and dungeon teleporters seem like something more than "aids" cooked up by people who rarely actually play the game and can't find their way around in it without help.

 

[Merion]

Just slow down a second here!

What about my red mage casting earthquake? does that still reveal blue stealthers? If so, the change isn't too bad. If not, this totally blows and I will train hiding immideatly on all my blues.

 

[Merion]

The only other explanation that makes sense to me is that there is a plan to eventually force every character in the game to join a faction. Doing that would finally give meaning to Cal's "wild West" comment back in mid-2009. It might actually make loyalty systems something people care about more often than just once in a blue moon. It might also make stuff like crystal portals and house and dungeon teleporters seem like something more than "aids" cooked up by people who rarely actually play the game and can't find their way around in it without help.

The problem is, this actually sounds like a good plan, so it can't be what's happening

 

[ohmyGED]

I don't even need to read through all the garbage because it is humorous. I'll just make the two valid points and you can close the thread.

(1) You cannot immediately hide after you steal an item.

(2) The odds of you finding a player on the field with Detect Hidden trained is rare in itself. Skill points are invested elsewhere, unless you are a scout of some sort.

There are no concerns here for thieves to be worried about.

/end

 

[Tina Small]

The problem is, this actually sounds like a good plan, so it can't be what's happening

I don't disagree.

Forcing all characters into factions would also make another change in this publish (i.e., no faction skill loss in Trammel) make more sense. It would also explain why any developer/designer time at all has been spent on arenas.

 

[popps]

Freely means with out recourse, so you can detect them with out being flagged. Did I clear it up?

So you are telling me that currently using Detect Hidden automatically flags the user as criminal ?

Really ?

How come then I see no reference to Detect Hidden use flagging as criminal neither in the UOGuide nor in Stratics ?

http://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/detecthidden.shtml
http://www.uoguide.com/Detect_Hidden

Note. The UOGuide even states "A stealther may re-hide immediately upon detection, wherein Tracking should then be used"........

 

[Bleak]

Detect Hidden Skill (Active Only)

Hidden players who have been detected will not be able to rehide/invis for duration based on their hiding skill or magery skill. Players can now only freely detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types.

This is worded incorrectly, players can now only detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types. Detect Hidden reveal check still takes in account the targets hiding skill when attempted. Players with only 20 Detect Hidden skill will have a lower chance to reveal players with GM hiding then if they had GM Detect Hidden. However at GM hiding players will only see a 2 second hiding penalty when revealed.

 

[Tina Small]

This is worded incorrectly, players can now only detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types.

Why is this change being made? It takes away any need to think or use teamwork when using Detect Hidden skill when playing with guildmates/friends and also opens up a host of new griefing opportunities. It also brings back "ghost cams" at champ spawns, but with live characters instead of ghosts.

 

[Merion]

Imho this forces people to have a red mage who can cast earthquake in their group to avoid "blue stealth cams".

 

[Tina Small]

Haven't been on TC to check this, but I wonder if friends, co-owners, and owners of houses will still be able to detect ANY character in the house (in Fel or Tram) or if they will only be able to detect characters that they are flagged to or can only do so if the detecting character is red.

 

[WarUltima]

Stop feeding the troll. This thread is so stupid. The delay before a skilled stealther can rehide is 1 second. And do you even know what you are talking about? Because you cannot hide right after you stole from someone. UO skill use 101, there is a skill use delay. Kinda like you cannot discord something and instantly peace it.

Any stealther with a skill better than my monkey wouldnt mind a 1 second delay rehide, not like they cant animal form and run away anyways. Oh maybe this is extremely challenging to the OP, but I have zero issue playing a stealther and surviving for one (1) second (WOOOOO ONE FULL SECOND NO WAYYYYYY!!1111one1!eleven1!) then I can just smoke bomb assuming I hasn't run away in animal form yet.

Saying players can have detect skill and stop the ******** instant rehide/smokebomb we currently have on stealthers/thieves will cause hiding and stealth skill unplayable is like saying people will put music and discord/peace on their character and tamer is completely unplayable.

If you cannot even play a stealther and survive for a second or two AFTER being ACTIVELY DETECTED, then maybe UO isn't for you... well let me repharse that, if you are feeling challenged playing a stealther whatsoever, then maybe Fel/PvP isnt for you. Go thru that blue moongate and ever go back and you will be fine.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

Is the 'Detected' the same as the 'Revealed' that a monster does?
No rehide duration based on magery or hiding levels? Higher skill(s), longer time period?
Maybe popps will test this stuff out & report back, 'cause we can guess about it all day.

 

[popps]

Detect Hidden Skill (Active Only)

Hidden players who have been detected will not be able to rehide/invis for duration based on their hiding skill or magery skill. Players can now only freely detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types.

This is worded incorrectly, players can now only detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types. Detect Hidden reveal check still takes in account the targets hiding skill when attempted. Players with only 20 Detect Hidden skill will have a lower chance to reveal players with GM hiding then if they had GM Detect Hidden. However at GM hiding players will only see a 2 second hiding penalty when revealed.

So, you are saying that a thief, flagged criminal after a stealing attempt (whether succesfull or not is irrelevant), will experience a 2 seconds penalty if revealed to re-hide?
If I understood correct, this is in a 20.0 (JoT) Detect Hidden vs. 100.0 Hiding (Thief) comparison.

What will the timer be set at in a, say, 100.0 Detect Hidden vs. 100.0 Hiding (Thief) comparison ?
Will this timer work only for re-hiding using the hiding skill but using the hiding spell or an hiding potion by-pass the down timer ?

Bottom line is, do you think that the changes will still allow a viable and possible Thief template considering that most always Thieves are weak templates, definately most often much weaker than their targets (they have to max out stealing, snooping, hiding and stealthing which leaves little room to any realistic defense or hiding skill...) and thus their really only defense resource is hiding fastly, surely and stealthing away ?

If not, will you consider changes to the current Detect Hidden plan exempting Thieves from too much harm that could come to them from these changes ?

Thieves have been reduced to almost non-existant since what they were years back.

I remember Guilds made out only of thieves and it was a great fun character to play.
Now, they are just a handfull and barely playable any more.

Making changes that severely hit their playability might really be that last nail in the coffin to still be able to play and enjoy a Thief in Ultima Online.

Thanks.

 

[WarUltima]

Why is this change being made? It takes away any need to think or use teamwork when using Detect Hidden skill when playing with guildmates/friends and also opens up a host of new griefing opportunities. It also brings back "ghost cams" at champ spawns, but with live characters instead of ghosts.

I dont know about you but a very famous zerg guild on a shard I play usually multi-client and park a few blue stealth detector at a few spots and it will render all faction stealthers unstealth-able unless you are in the same party with the BLUE detector. And you cant even put them in stat. Essentially allowing only the factioneers whos "friendly" (and in a party) with the blue detectors able to have a few stealth dismounters.

I guess the only freely attackable aspect of the change is probably due to something like this. Like you know zerggy guilds used to ally faction guild with bluebie guilds just so they can have fielders thats un-stat-able and it was a HUGE advantage especially when you are trying to push out of a faction base (TB/CoM) and you cant even kill them bluebies without invoking the "wrath of guards". And even if there are no guards, they will just sit there and field and if they got killed takes them 1 second to get rezzed from ANYONE faction or not and they are back fielding again. Also same idea has been applied to bluebie bards that helps discord/peace enemy faction players' pets from guardzone.

 

[WarUltima]

Is the 'Detected' the same as the 'Revealed' that a monster does?
No rehide duration based on magery or hiding levels? Higher skill(s), longer time period?
Maybe popps will test this stuff out & report back, 'cause we can guess about it all day.

Unlike some stupid people who argue for the sake of arguing. I've actually tried it out. At GM detect GM tracking, vs 120 stealth/GM Hiding, you have about 20% chance to reveal the legendary stealther. And after that they stealther will be rendered "unable to hide" for exactly 1 second after the instance that he/she was actively detected.

 

[Widow Maker]

Already moving skills around to make a non faction / non guilded blue stealth archer (used to have a red one..I'll make him something else now)..we are going to RULE the world!!!!!!!!

Thank you Devs..I am going to love having a primarily invulnerable character.

 

[popps]

If you cannot even play a stealther and survive for a second or two AFTER being ACTIVELY DETECTED, then maybe UO isn't for you... well let me repharse that, if you are feeling challenged playing a stealther whatsoever, then maybe Fel/PvP isnt for you. Go thru that blue moongate and ever go back and you will be fine.

First, it will be 2 seconds in a 20.0 (JoT) Detect Hidden vs. 100.0 Hiding scenario.

Second, we have no idea how many these seconds will be in a scenario from 20.0+ Detect Hidden and up to 100.0 Detect Hidden vs. 100.0 Hiding.

For all we know, it could even become 10 or more seconds which is plenty to kill a weak thief.

Third, my concern is not much for characters like for example a stealth archer who can well defend and attack, but specifically for thieves who most always are much weaker than their targets and their only way out from an unpleasant situation is through hiding and stealthing away.

Unless doing this is kept possible for thieves without much penalties or down timers in between hiding, playing a thief could become not much longer possible, IMHO.

 

[Tina Small]

Haven't been on TC to check this, but I wonder if friends, co-owners, and owners of houses will still be able to detect ANY character in the house (in Fel or Tram) or if they will only be able to detect characters that they are flagged to or can only do so if the detecting character is red.

Didn't have time to test much but I just put down a house in Tokuno on TC1 and took characters from two accounts there. Tested using detect hidden in a house set to either public or private and with varying levels of access and ownership and guild membership and everything seems to be unchanged as far as using the skill in a house to which your character has access at the friends or higher level. Any time a character was detected in the house, however, it was subject to a short delay before being able to hide again. Seemed like 5-6 seconds but I didn't have a watch handy to time it exactly. The house owner or friend or co-owner presumably still doesn't need to actually have any points in detect hidden skill to find hidden characters in the house. (I was using human chars with no detect skill other than their JoAT amount.)

The only thing I tested (still in Tokuno) outside the house was having a character with GM detect hidden detect a guildmate that had GM hiding skill. The detected guildmate character was subject to a delay of what seemed to be about 5 seconds before being able to rehide. Wasn't a very thorough test, unfortunately, just one run right outside the house and with no aggressive spawn present.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

For all we know, it could even become 10 or more seconds which is plenty to kill a weak thief.

Why play a weak anything, there are enough skill points available to make a strong thief, especially with all the skill items.

 

[Skrag]

The Detect Hidden skill of the opponent has no effect on how long it takes you to hide again. It's a 2 second delay at GM Hiding, period.

Dammit Popps, either learn to read or stop posting.

 

[Nonel]

I like it. Gives the scout/detectors more use. Active detect was basically useless. It was always easier to track and then stay in front of them for the passive reveal.

I also like having more of a challenge. Now if they could just give us back perma-gray...

"Players can now only freely detect hidden criminals, murderers, and other aggressor types." Though I don't think I like this. Without perma-gray this makes that first steal for us thieves too easy. And that first steal is all we need.

Edit: You modern thieves don't know how easy we have it with stealthing, compared to the old days. I'll take the passive reveal, and this new change, over going back to counting steps any day.

 

[popps]

Is the 'Detected' the same as the 'Revealed' that a monster does?
No rehide duration based on magery or hiding levels? Higher skill(s), longer time period?
Maybe popps will test this stuff out & report back, 'cause we can guess about it all day.

Unlike some stupid people who argue for the sake of arguing. I've actually tried it out. At GM detect GM tracking, vs 120 stealth/GM Hiding, you have about 20% chance to reveal the legendary stealther. And after that they stealther will be rendered "unable to hide" for exactly 1 second after the instance that he/she was actively detected.

Something looks quite "off" to me here since the post by Bleak_Mythic above states "Players with only 20 Detect Hidden skill will have a lower chance to reveal players with GM hiding then if they had GM Detect Hidden. However at GM hiding players will only see a 2 second hiding penalty when revealed.".

Now, if the down timer to re-hide in a 20.0 (JoT) Detect Hidden vs. 100.0 Hiding scenario is 2 seconds, I would be surprised to learn that it gets reduced to 1 second in a 100.0 Detect Hidden vs. 100.0 Hiding/120.0 Stealth scenario.......

 

[popps]

The Detect Hidden skill of the opponent has no effect on how long it takes you to hide again. It's a 2 second delay at GM Hiding, period.

So you are reading Bleak_Mythic's reply when it is said "Players with only 20 Detect Hidden skill will have a lower chance to reveal players with GM hiding then if they had GM Detect Hidden. However at GM hiding players will only see a 2 second hiding penalty when revealed." that the 2 seconds delay is a CAP of the downtimer regardles what the mix up of the Detect Hidden/Hiding skills will be ?

So the 2 seconds delay to re-hide is the max possible delay (CAP) only for a GM Detect Hidden vs. GM Hiding scenario ?

Then, what will be the down timer to re-hide for a 20.0 (JoT) Detect Hidden vs. 100.0 Hiding scenario ? One second ? No down timer ??

If 2 seconds is the highest down time possible before re-hiding, lower scenarios must have shorter down timers I would imagine.

 

[Chardonnay]

I would love to know which person on the EA team decided it was necessary to make it impossible in Fel to reveal blue characters.

AFK scriptors in Fel will have even fewer worries. I've never gotten into doing IDOCs, but I imagine this change will drastically affect the ones that happen in Fel.

Seems like you'll be able to cause all kinds of problems in Fel by stam-blocking with blue characters that no one has any possibility of revealing.

All the challenge of having to coordinate with faction mates to keep from revealing them during a raid or a faction stronghold defense just went out the window. Also gone now too, apparently, is the ability to reveal blue faction mates who are actually your enemy's "spies" in your faction.

To me, this change just smacks of some dev finally getting around to playing and then getting pissed off because they were revealed by a supposed "neutral" or "friendly" character. Instead of understanding that playing a detector among "neutral" and "friendly" characters takes skill, they went the "easy mode" route and took all the thinking and team work out of the skill. All you gotta do now is put that old detector on a looping macro and walk away. Easy as pie.

Or maybe someone on the dev team just got tired of having their AFK characters in Fel revealed and killed.

My point exactly...how the **** is a red suppose to detect a blue now? Or are we forcing Trammel on everyone?

 

[Babble]

Why is this change being made? It takes away any need to think or use teamwork when using Detect Hidden skill when playing with guildmates/friends and also opens up a host of new griefing opportunities. It also brings back "ghost cams" at champ spawns, but with live characters instead of ghosts.

That is the reason why they are doing it.
No friendly fire