To the development team: Why we stick with 2D (aka: how to make us migrate)

[Coldren]

I was fairly certain you weren't in charge of art, Grimm, I just contributed it to CatHat because I remember seeing a lot of stuff from him on the forums at the time. He'd always show us sneak previews of stuff he was working on, so forgive my misconception. It was my attempt to deflect finger pointing, which accurate or not, rarely if ever fixes a problem.

In a conversation about the KR animations, I'm sure there will be some that we have different opinions on, but you might be surprised how many opinions we have in common.

Regardless of weather or not you were referring to shared opinions of the EC artwork as a whole or just animations, it's good to know, but now let me ask you:

What is being DONE about it?

Is the art depart (You and anyone else) actively doing anything on a daily basis to address this? Or is all the art team's time being devoted to booster packs?

I challenge Dermott on a lot of things, but even he may be surprised to know, I WANT the EC client to succeed. BADLY! It has so much potential.. I just can't stand LOOKING at it. That is the biggest hindrance.. Everything else, I could work around. But this artwork (Or for that matter KR's) makes me die a little inside whenever I force myself to use it, because the EC is FAR better for PvE than the CC... But man, I just can not get over how bad it looks.

 

[TMC Crowley]

This thread is not intended to be anti-EC necessarily, or for anyone to say why the EC is better. It is for everyone to say why, for them, they do not play the EC and what would make them play on the enhanced client.

NOTHING If i had to play the EC i would stop playing Uo . I don't understand why people try to force people play something they don't want to . If you like the ec play it if you like the cc play it problem solved ......

 

[Mandrake of DF]

Ive been in this game since beta, and loved the 2d client. If that vanish, - so will I from this game.

I do not like or fancy anything in the 3D clients they gave us - and nor will I even try to like or learn it, as I love the 2D client.

When I say this, i know it goes for a few of the friends Ive played with for more than 10 yrs. And I bet its a lot more of them with same opinion.

What had been kewl, was if they updated the 2d client a bit with better art and bigger screen resolution.

 

[Tanivar]

For the sake of this thread, just a reminder that this is intended to be about why people stubbornly stick with the CC and what the CC has going for it that the EC doesn't.

Why do you stubbornly insist we give up a good client for a bad one?

The CC is old, clunky

Old yes, clunky? Where did you pull that out of? rolleyes:

and I would imagine that the EC is much easier for the devs to make content for. I, personally, would love a new client - but it has to be done right. I think artwork matters very muchso, but how can you really justify it over gameplay?

What the player sees is a big part of the game. The CC has clean graphics, the EC doesn't.

How the client lets the player interact with the game is important, the 'feel' it has. I favor whats worked well for thirteen years over the shoddy new EC.

If I was making a new client, I would try and make it look as much like the classic client as I could,

fixing small things where appropriate and leaving as much the same as possible. However, perhaps what matters more is not trying to keep it the same, but having an artistic vision that is the same. If we had the original art team that worked on UO, would we still complain about the art if it was changed? That may well be the case.

Finally, something said that makes sense. The User Interface is a big part of what makes a game enjoyable, or not enjoyable.

They can update the code of the CC to whatever modern programming language they want. As long as what the player experiences is the same when using it.

 

[BeefSupreme]

Folks!!! We. Are. Not. Dropping. The. Classic. Client.

Don't sweat it. Seriously!

-GRIMM

I know it's probably not your call, but you guys would have to be crazy not to send out feelers to Saphireena about doing some CC work.
At least that way it doesn't take hours out of all the other fires you've got going.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Problem isn't the monster graphics, or the landscape graphics, but rather the fact that they both have such a similar style that they blend together and become indistinguishable at times. No visual contrast. Nothing to make monsters distinguishable from everything else.
(and having targeted monsters glow makes them even harder to distinguish)

 

[Harlequin]

I know it's probably not your call, but you guys would have to be crazy not to send out feelers to Saphireena about doing some CC work.
At least that way it doesn't take hours out of all the other fires you've got going.

They did. But Cal said they acted too late and she was already working on something else at that time.

 

[Raina]

Problem isn't the monster graphics, or the landscape graphics, but rather the fact that they both have such a similar style that they blend together and become indistinguishable at times. No visual contrast. Nothing to make monsters distinguishable from everything else.
(and having targeted monsters glow makes them even harder to distinguish)

I've had to use the EC on my laptop due to it being at a high resolution and a small screen so... Honestly if I could get the 2d Client to work at a higher resolution, even loosing some quality, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I do also miss a lot of how the CC works, the lack of colour in text in the EC Chat window vs the old Journal. That you can't click on text over someones head to select them or open their paper doll or bring that text to the front. That you can't move most windows/items around just by clicking on them without using the window widgets. I'm even still bitter they destroyed the roads in 2D just so they didn't have to do more work on the KR Client eons ago and never fixed 'm like they said they would.

Mostly though, it just feels like they slapped the DAoC Interface on top of UO. The two really don't mesh well IMHO.

I'd rather see them re-do the EC Completely, make it look/feel/play exactly as the 2d client does now, then allow for modules for it to add some of the more disputed features If the player wants 'm.

~Rai

 

[Lord Chaos]

Not in her spare time, no. And not for free.

But she has shown that she can do it. And so have others. It just a matter of how high a priority this is to the dev team.

No, it is a matter of how feasible it is to properly convert tens of thousands of art pieces, many of them would require lots of manual work to make look good.

Not to mention you'd have to put a lot of thought into it to not increase the size of the CC by 3-4 times.

I do however agree that better 2D graphics and adding the EC's functionality to the CC would be awesome.

 

[Lord Chaos]

They did. But Cal said they acted too late and she was already working on something else at that time.

Odd, I remember her saying that she'd jump on the project, even if already working elsewhere.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Folks!!! We. Are. Not. Dropping. The. Classic. Client.

Don't sweat it. Seriously!

-GRIMM

No, but you ignore it a whole lot.

Just look at the town hall meeting...was there a single screen of the CC? Nope.

Since we're so many who use it, why didn't they show us how it looked in the client we play instead of some client we don't use?

Also, it would be nice if you guys took it seriously enough to back develop the unfair advantage the EC has over the CC into the CC.

 

[Siteswap]

Cal said they acted too late and she was already working on something else at that time.

Personally I dont trust him .... Town Hall only backed up that feeling.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Ok, lets get the acronyms down.

CC = Cool Client
EC = Extra Crappy

 

[Storm]

Also, it would be nice if you guys took it seriously enough to back develop the unfair advantage the EC has over the CC into the CC.

Rofl

 

[Hildebrand]

I am curious too, why no CC showing of the High Seas. Perhaps it's easier to program for the EC, and due to limited time, they were able to polish it quicker in EC rather than CC. I'm sure they'll be showing us CC soon.

 

[Mapper]

No, but you ignore it a whole lot.

Just look at the town hall meeting...was there a single screen of the CC? Nope.

Since we're so many who use it, why didn't they show us how it looked in the client we play instead of some client we don't use?

Also, it would be nice if you guys took it seriously enough to back develop the unfair advantage the EC has over the CC into the CC.

SA graphics in the EC and 2d client are the same, So I don't seen an issue showing it in EC, It'll look the same in 2d anyway you just won't see the entire boat as the player window is too small. I can completely understand why they used the EC, It shows far more area and a larger view window, Perfect for showing over a projector.

 

[Lord Chaos]

You really don't know if they look the same and you certainly do not know the feel of the game how its going to be in the CC.

If they don't want to showcast in it, simply show screenshots would be enough.

 

[Mapper]

You really don't know if they look the same and you certainly do not know the feel of the game how its going to be in the CC.

If they don't want to showcast in it, simply show screenshots would be enough.

Your right I don't, However the monsters and art in EC has been the same in 2d for SA so I don't see why they would make them different for this.

EDIT: http://gvp.nu/uo/FFX_Meet_2010/UO_Fairfax_Aug_28_2010__028.jpg There is a 2d shot.

 

[Siteswap]

I can completely understand why they used the EC, It shows far more area and a larger view window, Perfect for showing over a projector.

I knew they'd find a use for the EC sooner or later ...

 

[Lord Chaos]

I can completely understand why they used the EC, It shows far more area and a larger view window, Perfect for showing over a projector.

Only because they're too lazy to allow/add customized view in the CC.

This is part of the "They might not close the CC, but they generally ignore it." thing.

 

[lucitus]

Only because they're too lazy to allow/add customized view in the CC.

This is part of the "They might not close the CC, but they generally ignore it." thing.

Lol and what they are doing with the EC ignoring it?

The problem is not which client to use, the problem is, is there a playable client? Also is there a playable client for the future?

We can discuss the whole day about arts and tastes and is this a Ultima style. But the problem is the 2d client is too old and the programming is on its limits, this engine was invented to handle resolutions of 800*600 1998 a very good engine with potential, but now it is more then a decade later.

2d has its limits and the EC doesnt get the attention it needs, that does not mean all is bad in 2d or all is bad in the EC, it does need love, it is a difference if you publish a small patch every week or if you do it half a year.

For me there should be a clear decesion, yes we are suporting the 2d client but our prefered and polished and loved client is the EC or we are loving the 2d client polishing it and dropping the EC.

But ignoring all, is the worst thing they can do!

 

[Siteswap]

Only because they're too lazy to allow/add customized view in the CC.

This is part of the "They might not close the CC, but they generally ignore it." thing.

Lol and what they are doing with the EC ignoring it?

The problem is not which client to use, the problem is, is there a playable client? Also is there a playable client for the future?

They are pretty much ignoring both clients and concentrating on adding more sparklies to get our money whilst bug after bug after bug goes unchecked.

Thats EA for you.

 

[Lord Chaos]

this engine was invented to handle resolutions of 800*600 1998

The CC can do resolutions well beyond 800*600.

 

[Sturdy]

If they had used the CC for the demo you would not be able to see two entire ships on the same screen. (or thats what it looked like to me)

 

[Trevelyan]

Can you PLEASE stay on topic and simply talk about what you LIKE about the CLASSIC CLIENT. The point being that if the development team know what people like about 2D, they can then try and cater for that in a new client. This should be a positive thread with constructive criticism of the EC (what things would make it more like the CC experience that you think it lacks), rather than negative (what it doesnt do/have)

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated that this is not an anti-EC thread. Add to that anti-Grimm too.

You know, if the artwork and "apparent" functionality stays the same, it really doesn't matter how the underlying program works. So, if they can make something from scratch that looks and feels the same as what we have now, I think that people would have an easier time migrating. The real problem I see is that so much is too different from what people are used to. I would be interested to know exactly why a client couldn't be remade using all of the current graphics and animations or why this would present too much of a problem, development wise.

 

[Phineas le Monge]

I would love to go back to the 2d classic client, but my new Win 7 computer has the classic client window sized to only 25% of my monitor. I like the ease of recognition of the classic client - there is a definate difference in appearance of monsters and the basic functionality of the cc - it is easier on my old eyes (which is why I bought a bigger monitor). But because I could not resize the cc window I was forced to tackle the learning curve to the ec. There are some really good points in the ec, but if I had to chose one or the other, I would like the cc back...

 

[Myna]

Two reasons to use EC:

- Looting kills is fast (I can right click stuff to take it)
- I have a 1080p display. 800x600 gameplay windows are incredibly small when you're at 1920x1080.

i even have a 2560 x 1600 and do you know what? its not hard to reduce resolution before starting the game and all is fine

to make it short ... EC is crap, it seems the majority use the cc and that is proof enough

 

[Mapper]

i even have a 2560 x 1600 and do you know what? its not hard to reduce resolution before starting the game and all is fine

to make it short ... EC is crap, it seems the majority use the cc and that is proof enough

Most LCDs only look good at a certain resolution so once mine is set, I don't touch it.

This thread really is becoming just a big EC bash... As I expected.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I am curious too, why no CC showing of the High Seas.

In terms of the Town Hall presentation, I would (safely) assume it's because the EC can handle a MUCH LARGER gameplay window than the CC and thus makes for a more visible presentation on a projector than the CC would have.

This thread really is becoming just a big EC bash

Becoming? Seemed like it started as one or at least was destined to become one from the first post.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

2) Contrary to the opinion of one poster, (and I've said this several times) I was not in charge of KR Art - just KR creatures, and given the scope of the art side of KR, that's pretty far from "all" art. Any question about it can be resolved by looking into the UOKR credits. There's a post somewhere on Stratics that has that information.

According to the Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn "credits.txt" file:

Art Director:
Walter Ianneo

Artist Leads:
J.P. Harrod
Ken Raschko

Artists:
Dave Brown
Stuart Elkington
Makiko Honda
Danny Floyd

Concept Art:
Brittain Scott
Sean Murray
Juhan Lee


According to the Ultima Online: Stygian Abyss "credits.txt" file:

Art Director:
Eric Piccione

Artists:
JP Harrod
Ruben Garza
Mike Crossmire
Susan Townsend

Additional Artist:
Dan Makfinskey


So at least it looks like they got rid of whomever it was that was signing off on the overall quality of the KR art -- at least that's my guess as to the change in Art Directors.

But I would question what the role of an "Artist Lead" is, and what specific responsibilities one of them would have had during the Kingdom Reborn process. Any insight on this?

I mean, I have heard from another inside source who will remain nameless that part of the issue with KR/EC is that art came back from whatever asset department was providing them (I don't know if this was internal or external, and I didn't ask) was subpar. I would think that someone, Director, Lead, someone would have been signing off on this early into the project to ensure quality throughout the course of it.

I'll use the banana tree -- because it's a KR perennial favorite -- and ask: If there was an artist that could perform bringing the banana tree up to that resolution with it still being CLEARLY based on the original piece of UO art, what happened to the other 10k tiles in the game?

 

[puni666]

Folks!!! We. Are. Not. Dropping. The. Classic. Client.

Don't sweat it. Seriously!

-GRIMM

Dev's!!! Please. Balance. Mysticism. Sometime. In. The. Near. Future.

Things are unbalanced. Seriously!

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

I know it's probably not your call, but you guys would have to be crazy not to send out feelers to Saphireena about doing some CC work.
At least that way it doesn't take hours out of all the other fires you've got going.

I haven't talked to Saph in a long time, but I recall she's working for a different game company (ironically for the same guy I used to work for), and this complicates matters a great deal. Not saying that it makes it impossible, just more complicated.

But your general approach to the problem is a sound one, and one we've taken in the past (although not through Saphireena).

-GRIMM

 

[Tanivar]

So here's a suggestion for a chunk of the next booster pack.

Point the Dev team at the Classic Client and tell them to make THAT User Interface using that oh so easy to use programming language they talk about that they used on the less than popular EC. To keep some of the EC fans happy give them a switch to add in the hot bars & other junk they like.

Once the User Interface arguement is ended, except for those griefers who want change so has to irritate as many people as possible, you Devs will have an easy to work with, popular with the players, client to work on.

 

[canary]

Dev's!!! Please. Balance. Mysticism. Sometime. In. The. Near. Future.

Things are unbalanced. Seriously!

Just pointing out that you asked a member of the art team a design question.

They are not the same.

 

[puni666]

Just pointing out that you asked a member of the art team a design question.

They are not the same.

They can pass the info along I'm sure.

 

[Entheeya]

What would make me switch ???

I don't think anything short of doing away with 2D would
make me switch...even then I would quit playing if
2D was removed...

 

[Lord Frodo]

Copied from Why is the SA client graphics suck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fink
The Enhanced Client graphics were severely compromised in at least two attempts to attract people over from Classic Client:

Lower resolution.. people who couldn't physically run KR due to their own performance issues could now run EC, supposedly. The herd only moves as fast as the oldest and sickest members, so the idea was to support aging machines that had been comfortably running CC for a decade without a problem.

Retro appeal.. they chucked most of the KR art and replaced it with legacy art to lure people who didn't like the new look. People who by and large weren't going to accept anything new in any regard, and hence wouldn't be using the client.

--

Obviously it's not all white and black. Some high-spec machines still have issues with EC. Some older machines ran KR fine. Some people like EC function but prefer the legacy look. Some people much prefer the KR look and lament being sent back to the early 1990's.

--

As far as EC goes, it would be great to have all legacy options to make migration as comfortable as possible for those who want to make the switch. It already has options for classic containers, legacy targeting, legacy speech, classic macro import, and so on. Add optional paperdolls, avatars, mobs, etc. Of course, these would not scale well if you zoomed in but is that really any worse than now?

And for those who don't want the whole retro experience, put the full KR art back in as an option. This would be a tremendous commitment to the EC, as they have often promised.

As much as I would love to see the developer team entirely given over to EC improvements, I'm also of the opinion they should support CC as long as people still want it. But if you gave them legitimate reasons to want to migrate, maybe the whole new client thing would pay off... this time.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head with the first strike and driving it home with one hit. I would love to use the EC if, and only if, they would let me use all the legacy art work. And for those that want it and can run it add KR art work also.