To the development team: Why we stick with 2D (aka: how to make us migrate)

[Trevelyan]

This thread is not intended to be anti-EC necessarily, or for anyone to say why the EC is better. It is for everyone to say why, for them, they do not play the EC and what would make them play on the enhanced client.

I'm making this because it seems quite apparent that the 2d client is very dated and perhaps hard to program for and something like the EC would be much better.

For me:

- Artwork. This is the only thing for me, really. The nice, pre-LBR artwork and animations are simply beautiful. Nothing compares to it.
- Interface, gumps and fonts. Fits in with the artwork; has to look nice and medieval-y and Ultima-y.

If you made a brand new client using some nice artwork (and the same perspective) - or even the classic art as it is now - I would change np.

Put your thoughts here!

 

[canary]

Well, pretty much what you said, though after the Town Hall's talk about the EC client you may be in for a long wait. They don't really have any clear vision on how to move forward to make it successful.

 

[R Traveler]

In CC I don't need to cross my eyes to see, and don't need to curl fingers to type not-english languages

 

[WarUltima]

I would MAYBE use EC if they make one thats stripped down or simply making it so it works exactly like CC. As in I can just copy my 2D macros over to EC folder overwrites something and bammm I am playing. No hotkey bars to worry about ect ect.

It's terribly hard for me to convert because my macros covers 2/3of my keyboards and the EC macro system isnt exactly "friendly" to old players.

And why does it take some serious hardware to make EC playable? I mean even with a sli setup would lag with I play in EC while I can get 30+ fps in games like Farcry in high settings with all special effects turned on.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Take the ECs UI and give us a switch to select 2D / SA / KR graphics. If I select 2D then I still get the EC UI but it looks just like the CC Paperdoll and all. Same for SA or KR. We get the better UI with the graphics we want to play with.

 

[Banner]

In CC I don't need to cross my eyes to see, and don't need to curl fingers to type not-English languages

Nor do I have to go out and buy another computer just to be able to play the dang game.. Look it some of us play the CC and some of you play the EC Which if find who cares what version you play just play the game and be happy that you have a game to play!!?? SO instead of those of us playing the CC saying "why do they play EC for whatever reason" and those of you who play EC say "why do they play that out dated CC" you should play the game and leave every one else alone??? You people are sounding like a bunch of unchecked ninnies just play the game in what ever fashion that's suites you and leave the other side alone??? GAWl!!!!! WOW I feel better so how bout a group hug?

 

[Warpig Inc]

The grid and list containers blow. And the classic container doesn't hold items locations in the same way/place as 2d (I have over a decade of housing and packs set up that EC is yet made it worth to reset). The grid would work if the click loot had an option to place looted items in a different bag. There is just not enough little boxes for looting and items needed at hand.

The other big one. There are mining spots in CC that EC can't target or see.

Lastly like the music in 2d. We find no need for it and turn it off. Thats the way I felt about ECs artwork and sparkle shinies.


Give CC hotbars/auto dress/Stretching 3d style grid container/click looting and then just blow up EC.

 

[Prime.]

When they get rid of CC they get rid of me!

I cannot stand the ugly 3d graphics in uo nor in any other MMORPG, I love 2D just the way it is

 

[Verthandi]

I like what they've done for some environments in the SA client; things like water, lava, underground rock, and the vastness around Malas look amazing. The art for many of the monsters is fantastic. Having a stationary hotbar can be useful. But I went back to using the CC most of the time.

Artwork-- I like the clear-cut lines in the CC. The grid-view of EC packs is useful, but it's still hard for me to make out what objects actually are sometimes, because they look so 'fuzzy'. I stopped PvM hunting in the EC because it's so much easier to see what is actually happening in the CC; everything is a big blur to me in SA, especially when there are multiple spell effects going off in a tight space, or a lot of monsters on screen. This is more important than being able to create more complicated macros.

Performance-- My computer can handle games like LOTRO and GW just fine, but Stygian Abyss can crank and hitch along awfully at times.

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

EC DOESNT LOOK, well normal, everyone is frumpy and looks like they have downs, or scolioses.

I mean look, its horrible. EC is HORRIBLE.


​

 

[Cetric]

one - they never fixed my problem i brought to them with scrolling the mouse wheel for last target (causing alot of overcasting)


two - i can't pvp as fluently, cast as fluently, etc.

i dont like the gridview backpack, and the legacy containers looks horrible

the male paperdoll looks horrible...female is nice tho

 

[Merion]

Don't want to start a big discussion, just wanted to chip in and say that there are awesome mods that resolve some of the issues mentioned.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

There is no reason for me to change client.

 

[Talula]

I started as a 2d player and I can't think of any reason that would motivate me to switch to 3d. I've always loved the look of the 2d client, with the exception of some of the unfinished/half-assed graphics that they put in later. I loaded up the EC when I came back and shut it right back down.

 

[LadyNico]

It is no secret that I do not play EC because I do not care for the EC artwork. It isn't remotely appealing to me.

Bring in Saphireena to head up a major EC artwork overhaul and you will have the Classic Clent mob by the short and curlies.

Simples. *chirp*

 

[Lord Chaos]

Just because she can make a few mockups, doesn't mean she can overhaul a massive amount of game art.

 

[LadyNico]

No, I still do not wish to be your friend, LC. rolleyes:

 

[Mervyn]

I prefer the 2d artwork, the E.C has a problem with casting for target self/last that makes for slower casting, however, i do sometimes play the E.C not because i want to, but because i'm able to run faster than speedhackers.

If i'm playing alone i'll play 2d so i can mage duel, If i'm with a group of people i'll play E.C so i can hunt people down with speed.

 

[The_Traveler]

I haven't used the UO 3D client since the release of AoS. TD and LBR gave me the 3Dish look without excess lag, without lag spikes due to the various spell animations. The EC has all these problems. It seems the devs have put so much in to the look of the client that the client performance suffers.

The AoS 3D client worked the same way but the paperdoll graphics were terrible! Only slightly worse than the current 3D client.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

The EC isn't 3D people. Not even remotely. Its the CC art scaled up x1.5 with new mobile sprites skinned with a more modern UI.

 

[Coldren]

Saphireena.

Even if you can't get her to work for you, DO THIS.

That is all.

 

[Tanivar]

Ultima Online is a game with a certain content, appearance, and User Interface that make for a good gameplay experience.

Fubar (foul up beyond all recogition) the User Interface (force use of the EC) and the game play experience would be drastically different and not be the same game we enjoy now and have for years. I'd dump my files, and leave the game.

I've done this once when they announced the patch to make the client work with Punkbuster which I consider a real security weakness. I can do it again if they ruin the game I've played since 2000 by forcing use of the Enhanced (what a misfit word for the EC) Client..

If I have played a game for years and the new version released has a User Interface I don't like, I don't pay for it.

 

[Lord Chaos]

No, I still do not wish to be your friend, LC. rolleyes:

Thank god for that. I have never and would never wish to be in that position.

 

[Cetric]

also... don't like the way talking/typing works

 

[Rakoth]

Saphireena.

Even if you can't get her to work for you, DO THIS.

That is all.

I haven't played in years. But even when I did sort-of kind-of not-really-only-on-occasion played in the twenty-first century, Saphireena's examples were on Stratics and were much

/endorse

 

[Petra Fyde]

Clarity and familiarity.

I can't see what's going on anything like as well in the enhanced client. It makes it difficult to play and gives me a headache from squinting at the screen trying to see the details.

The characters I see on the screen and in the paperdolls are not 'my' girls, they're strangers to me. Each of my girls have their own character - none are strumpets. The term 'dignified knight' could not be applied to the male paper doll - and it should be.

 

[Ender]

Ultima Online is a game with a certain content, appearance, and User Interface that make for a good gameplay experience.

Fubar (foul up beyond all recogition) the User Interface (force use of the EC) and the game play experience would be drastically different and not be the same game we enjoy now and have for years. I'd dump my files, and leave the game.

I've done this once when they announced the patch to make the client work with Punkbuster which I consider a real security weakness. I can do it again if they ruin the game I've played since 2000 by forcing use of the Enhanced (what a misfit word for the EC) Client..

If I have played a game for years and the new version released has a User Interface I don't like, I don't pay for it.

Oh, one of those people. UO would be a better game if you all didn't ***** about it and it was implemented.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Artwork-- I like the clear-cut lines in the CC. The grid-view of EC packs is useful, but it's still hard for me to make out what objects actually are sometimes, because they look so 'fuzzy'. I stopped PvM hunting in the EC because it's so much easier to see what is actually happening in the CC; everything is a big blur to me in SA, especially when there are multiple spell effects going off in a tight space, or a lot of monsters on screen. This is more important than being able to create more complicated macros.

This.

 

[canary]

[B]Artwork-- I like the clear-cut lines in the CC. The grid-view of EC packs is useful, but it's still hard for me to make out what objects actually are sometimes, because they look so 'fuzzy'. I stopped PvM hunting in the EC because it's so much easier to see what is actually happening in the CC; everything is a big blur to me in SA, especially when there are multiple spell effects going off in a tight space, or a lot of monsters on screen. This is more important than being able to create more complicated macros. [/B]

You can thank GrimmOmen for this, as he was the KR art lead on the project AND defended this, uhm 'art' here on stratics.

 

[BadManiac]

One major problem I had with KR and I still have with SA, apart from the art, missing features and everything else that has been mentioned here before, is the movement.

Movement in EC is too smooth. It doesn't feel like you're running or riding, it feels like you're hovering or gliding along, the characters' legs just randomly waving around and having nothing to do with the movement of the character.
The jerky movement in CC oddly enough makes it "feel" more real, more like the character is actually attached to the ground and running.

 

[Coldren]

You can thank GrimmOmen for this, as he was the KR art lead on the project AND defended this, uhm 'art' here on stratics.

He may defend it because that is what he is stuck with.. And while I adored CatHat, I think KR artwork was his baby...

The Japanese have a saying (At least I think it was Japanese) - Fix the problem, not the blame.

I don't care who did what to whom for whatever reason.

If they aren't actively seeking to reproduce what Saphrieena could do with the EC client graphics pipeline, and hiring competent artists to make it happen, they're wasting their ****ing time and need to correct their issue right now..

It's only what she saw - UO made clean and modern without losing the characteristics of it that made it UO in the first place, that would be worth the bother.

Fix. The. Problem.

 

[Sturdy]

I like the EC client and use it exclusively.

The CC is better looking but is approx 8" by 10" on my 24" 1920 x 1200 monitor. (not playable)

When I do fire up the CC I am always impressed by how pretty it is. I think this really has to do with a lack of art in the proper resolution for the EC. On the technical side the macros, movement, targeting etc are much better (to me) in EC.

I hope they continue to chip away at the art files.

 

[Lady Storm]

Well to be honest I dislike it's looks and it gives me headaches and hurts my eyes.
I cant play for too long in that EC/KR modes and I have honestly tried to before my head is splitting and I need to get off the comp.

I have no explanation for it except I had a stroke and perhaps thats it.. other wise.

 

[Harlequin]

I would MAYBE use EC if they make one thats stripped down or simply making it so it works exactly like CC. As in I can just copy my 2D macros over to EC folder overwrites something and bammm I am playing. No hotkey bars to worry about ect ect.

It's terribly hard for me to convert because my macros covers 2/3of my keyboards and the EC macro system isnt exactly "friendly" to old players.

And why does it take some serious hardware to make EC playable? I mean even with a sli setup would lag with I play in EC while I can get 30+ fps in games like Farcry in high settings with all special effects turned on.

The EC actually detects that my chars have a CC profile and prompts me if I want to copy these to the EC.

It's not perfect though. EC differentiates btwn left and right alt/ctrl/shift keys. So I have decide which side of the keyboard to use or create a second macro to make it run on both left and right ctrl/alt/shift key combos.

A nice thing about this is that I created base toolbars to hold 26 keys (for A-Z), I no longer need to rely on an excel file to see which key combos i can use. I can also easily customize macros between my mages and warriors by dropping the respective spells into the respective toolbar. eg ctrl+r for recall on mages, and sacred journey for warriors.

Once I have the base macros set up on 1 char, I just copy the macro/settings file and rename it for my other chars.

I don't have performance issues in the EC, so I can't say much on the hw issues others are having. Old generation Nvidia 9800. 512 mb. No sli.

 

[Tanivar]

Oh, one of those people. UO would be a better game if you all didn't ***** about it and it was implemented.

Face facts, the EC is not an Enhanced Client, it is bad looking, cluttered with hotbars and stray windows like some kind of business program. It doesn't run smoothly other than when your characters skid along on occasion instead of walking. The EC makes it a worse game, not a better one.

We all ***** about it because if we don't the few will whine and moan enough about to perhaps get the CC dropped in spite of the fact most players still use it because we prefer a better working, better looking client.

 

[Harlequin]

The grid and list containers blow. And the classic container doesn't hold items locations in the same way/place as 2d (I have over a decade of housing and packs set up that EC is yet made it worth to reset). The grid would work if the click loot had an option to place looted items in a different bag. There is just not enough little boxes for looting and items needed at hand.

The other big one. There are mining spots in CC that EC can't target or see.

Lastly like the music in 2d. We find no need for it and turn it off. Thats the way I felt about ECs artwork and sparkle shinies.


Give CC hotbars/auto dress/Stretching 3d style grid container/click looting and then just blow up EC.

The grid view layout is based on what items went into your container first. First item will always be in top row, leftmost column. 2nd goes into top row 2nd column. For my default view, my pack is si2d to have 5 columns. So 6th item will wrap around to the 2nd row, leftmost column.

For the container grid and legacy differences, I have found a solution that works for me. I arrange my stuff in columns in the EC first eg spell books in 1 column, weapons in another, bandaids/apples/potions in a 3rd, runebooks in the 4th, lootbag/bos/trapbox in the last.

This messes up the positions of the items in legacy mode. But then I toggle to legacy backpack mode and reorganize them once back to how I originally. This way I have it nicely displayed in both CC and EC.



Also found out how to disable the offset gump thing so that corpses/containers always appear in a specific location.

Now I am just trying to find the mod that will let me place quicklooted stuff into my lootbag. Quickloot was really cool when I used it to get brc from ophidians/bane chosens. Got an obscene amount from hanging back and looting the partially hidden ones from public'd corpses

 

[Uvtha]

Face facts, the EC is not an Enhanced Client, it is bad looking, cluttered with hotbars and stray windows like some kind of business program. It doesn't run smoothly other than when your characters skid along on occasion instead of walking. The EC makes it a worse game, not a better one.

We all ***** about it because if we don't the few will whine and moan enough about to perhaps get the CC dropped in spite of the fact most players still use it because we prefer a better working, better looking client.

Nonsense, it is an enhanced client. It's got way more functionality that the classic client. The art and skins are not good, but thats really got nothing to do with the function of the client.

I didn't use KR because of the quite frankly amateurish item art, and I don't play the SA client because of the distracting mix of old and new art, and some of the still used art is still pretty bad, and I have trouble with some things like items (moving them around, how they appear dark and weird) and sometimes targeting is weird for me. And they never got the perspective quite right either.

That said it runs like 10 times better for me than the cc, and I really like all the macro options, and a lot of the monsters are really great looking.

Like the OP said, it just needs to have a better "feel". I really doubt the cc will ever be replaced because there are too many stubborn people who just hate trying new things, but the EC defiantly can get more players.

I think new avatar art would be a big help. Give people like 10 choices in each sex. That would be a pretty good draw...assuming they don't look stupid.

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

He may defend it because that is what he is stuck with.. And while I adored CatHat, I think KR artwork was his baby...

Okay, this complicated. I'll address this in parts:

1) KR was not Cathats baby. Cat, although a MASSIVE and INVALUABLE team member and contributor to the art of KR, was not in a lead or director position.

2) Contrary to the opinion of one poster, (and I've said this several times) I was not in charge of KR Art - just KR creatures, and given the scope of the art side of KR, that's pretty far from "all" art. Any question about it can be resolved by looking into the UOKR credits. There's a post somewhere on Stratics that has that information.

3) While I appreciate the comment, Coldren, no... I'll not defend artwork just because I'm "stuck" with it. That's certainly not my speed. In a conversation about the KR animations, I'm sure there will be some that we have different opinions on, but you might be surprised how many opinions we have in common.


Cheers,
GRIMM

 

[Harlequin]

Just because she can make a few mockups, doesn't mean she can overhaul a massive amount of game art.

Not in her spare time, no. And not for free.

But she has shown that she can do it. And so have others. It just a matter of how high a priority this is to the dev team.

While great graphics may not necessarily gain players, sub par graphics can certainly turn people away. Remember the daemons on high heels? Tthat said, some of the EC graphics are really nice. Orcs/giant beetles/swampy/wyvern. Not what we are used to, but if looked at as if it was another game, they look pretty cool.

Mind you, I still use the CC most of the time. Paperdoll posture is ugly, and my char in the center of the screen also looks ugly. It doesn't matter if all other graphics of mobs I see occaasionally are beautiful, the one that I see most often is my own char in the center of the screen and my paperdoll.

That, plus some features in UOA that are still not available yet like menu selection, use once, sell agent, on the fly recordable macro etc

 

[TheGrimmOmen]

We all ***** about it because if we don't the few will whine and moan enough about to perhaps get the CC dropped in spite of the fact most players still use it because we prefer a better working, better looking client.

Folks!!! We. Are. Not. Dropping. The. Classic. Client.

Don't sweat it. Seriously!

-GRIMM

 

[Athelas]

Simply put, Athelas looks fat in the enhanced client, so no go!

That and I guess its nostalgia, the cc is how I remember the game when I first started playing.

 

[Harlequin]

also... don't like the way talking/typing works

There is a legacy toggle for typing so that you don't have to hit enter first to open the typing window

 

[Harlequin]

One major problem I had with KR and I still have with SA, apart from the art, missing features and everything else that has been mentioned here before, is the movement.

Movement in EC is too smooth. It doesn't feel like you're running or riding, it feels like you're hovering or gliding along, the characters' legs just randomly waving around and having nothing to do with the movement of the character.
The jerky movement in CC oddly enough makes it "feel" more real, more like the character is actually attached to the ground and running.

It gets unsynced sometimes too. You are not standing where you are supposed to, so you can't hit mobs. But they can hit you. Also, for some reason, it is difficult to tell if you are standing on the same tile as another player.

For sync issues, sometimes when you open a corpse, it still shows an item that was already looted. And when you loot too fast, it is a lot easier to the the item stuck in hand issue like the CC. Then you can't click anything. In CC, I can use the UOA disarm macro to fix. In the EC, I haven't found a way short of logging off/on (sometimes require a restart of the client) to reset it.

 

[Siteswap]

Nonsense, it is an enhanced client. It's got way more functionality that the classic client.

Correct. The EC has more functionallity than the CC. 1-0 to the EC.

Now read all of the rest of the posts in this thread for the 100 reasons why CC is superior to EC.

 

[Minerva Foxglove]

I wont leave CC until: Saphireena makes atleast the paperdolls. Preferably all clothing and items in inventory as well.

The walking stuff touch the ground instead of splattering above the ground.

I can see the items in my inventory clearly.

I can stock my vendors without it looks like a disaster for the 2D users.

With this fixed I think I can take the headache

 

[Tanivar]

Like the OP said, it just needs to have a better "feel". I really doubt the cc will ever be replaced because there are too many stubborn people who just hate trying new things, but the EC defiantly can get more players.

I have no problem using new things. I check them out and see if the new thing is worth using or not. If not, it's discarded or put in storage as a backup in case the good one fails.

I use the EC when I want to run two of my accounts at the same time. With my new wide screen LCD monitor it's easy to do. Two game windows side by side with one or the other the active window. Doing that makes it even more obvious the CC is the better game client.

 

[Trevelyan]

For the sake of this thread, just a reminder that this is intended to be about why people stubbornly stick with the CC and what the CC has going for it that the EC doesn't.

The CC is old, clunky and I would imagine that the EC is much easier for the devs to make content for. I, personally, would love a new client - but it has to be done right. I think artwork matters very muchso, but how can you really justify it over gameplay?

Look at dye tubs, tokuno dyes etc. The choice of one look over another. Which ethereal mount you use. House customisation. Artwork and graphics do matter. If you want a nice royal blue coloured robe and then in another client it looks sky blue, do you really want that?

So a few issues for me relating to art:

• Uniform look - your customised look of your character will appear differently to different people who use different clients. In addition, newer CC artwork doesn't "fit" with older artwork, in terms of perspective, lighting or just the way it "looks".
  
• Theme - The EC is not what I would associate with an "Ultima" game, in terms of how the art looks. I wish I could actually describe what it is that bugs me, but I am not afraid of new things. Just new things that don't look so good. To me, this is not the view that nearly 20 years of Ultima has put into my head. Medieval-y looking art, fonts, nice rich artwork. The EC paperdolls are not nearly as bad as they were in 3d but it is character art that really bugs me.
  
• Quality - this is totally subjective, and relating only to the CC, but for me the quality difference between old and new shows in the CC. LBR character art seems very "jaggy"-ish. The process by which the 2d animations are generated from 3d models, for me, shows either that the original models used for UO monsters were superior in quality or that they had more work done to them in post processing. Either way, they seem to have had more time and work done to them.
  
  
  

You eat processed meat and then progress over the years to sirloin steak. You wouldn't ever be able to go back to an inferior quality meat without complaint. I've played Ultima games that have progressed, graphically, over the years. Seeing some newer CC art (notably ML and SE for me), some of it seems worse than Alpha screenshots from UO. Things just seem so hard to "understand" in the EC, so incoherant. Over time you'd probably get used to it but I still think that the CC is easier to see "what is going on" in.

If I was making a new client, I would try and make it look as much like the classic client as I could, fixing small things where appropriate and leaving as much the same as possible. However, perhaps what matters more is not trying to keep it the same, but having an artistic vision that is the same. If we had the original art team that worked on UO, would we still complain about the art if it was changed? That may well be the case.

 

[Corvak]

Two reasons to use EC:

- Looting kills is fast (I can right click stuff to take it)
- I have a 1080p display. 800x600 gameplay windows are incredibly small when you're at 1920x1080.

 

[canary]

2) Contrary to the opinion of one poster, (and I've said this several times) I was not in charge of KR Art - just KR creatures, and given the scope of the art side of KR, that's pretty far from "all" art. Any question about it can be resolved by looking into the UOKR credits. There's a post somewhere on Stratics that has that information.

Art Director:
Walter Ianneo

Artist Leads:
J.P. Harrod
Ken Raschko

Yes, as I said, you were an Art Lead. Yes, you should have taken the time to tell the art people, "You know what? This art looks bad, and I don't think most will like it."

Please stop trying to pass the buck. Seriously. I have no doubt you've read post after post for YEARS detailing how people loathe the 'amateurish', 'blurry', 'ugly' '(fill in blank here or yet another of the bad things it is called here)' art that is in the KR. You were an art lead. It was yours and the directors job to ensure that a quality product was being released. It wasn't, and the TONS of posts on here and elsewhere stand testament to that.

 

[Ender]

Face facts, the EC is not an Enhanced Client, it is bad looking, cluttered with hotbars and stray windows like some kind of business program. It doesn't run smoothly other than when your characters skid along on occasion instead of walking. The EC makes it a worse game, not a better one.

We all ***** about it because if we don't the few will whine and moan enough about to perhaps get the CC dropped in spite of the fact most players still use it because we prefer a better working, better looking client.

My post was about Punkbuster, not the EC.