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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Okay...now you have me curious...spill it (the secrets, not the blood)
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Classic shard.
- Thread starter Unsatisfied
- Start date
- Watchers 17
- Status
Shoot me a PM if you want.Okay...now you have me curious...spill it (the secrets, not the blood)
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Xora
Guest
Not entirely. So many "bugs" in UO became necessary features. Do you remember paralyze before trapped pouches broke it? That was technically a bug. Precasting was a bug. Talking while hiding? I don't remember if that was deemed a bug, but they certainly removed it. Every era had its own set of features that were questionable. It's why I, once again, say changes need to be implemented post release. Fix things slowly and make sure it doesn't change the game too much.
On an entirely different point, I see you comparing rule sets post-T2A and listing general changes. My timeline is running together a bit, but I think the archer mage days were still going on with T2A's release? If so, pre-meditation versus post-medi patch is a major difference from a pvper perspective. Meditation sped up the game and created more offense. It allowed groups of weaker players to get kills by dumping, but it also encouraged dump and run tactics. A pre-medi world without fast mana and multi-dumps where killing is hard and surviving is easy would be a product I don't see on the PvP market anywhere. I fondly remember the 45 minute duels dodging arrows (remember you could move as someone shot an arrow and had a chance at dodging?), managing mana, and wearing down an opponent. It sure beats the 4 spell/hit kills of most games I've played lately.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Yeah, the dodging arrows thing led to insta-hit if I am not mistaken, which I see a lot of people asking for. That was done away with...and since then you have these stupid animations of you running through the forest with an arrow chasing you...making turns and such. rolleyes:
I know exactly what you are saying though.
Take for example pets casting in game now:
A pet dumps on a player, but the player runs away after the first of say 5 spells hit. The player runs 3 screens away before all of the animations go off, especially if explosion is in the chain. The spells eventually take effect, giving the player the impression that the pet (or NPC monster for that matter) has cast on them from 3 screens away. Anyone that remembers the old mechanics, and insta-hit, knows this isn't true...it is just whatt they did to fix the problem with insta-hit of you coming out of a moongate, and before your connection caught up, 6 imps had killed you before you could even move.
I don't think any era or publish was ever perfect. I think some players have preference on certain things however. This is why I have always advocated for a Classic Era Shard, vs. a Pure Classic Shard. I suppose some of us need to be more specific about things.
This of course leads naysayers to point out that none of us can agree on what Classic means.
The truth is...we can't.
But that doesn't mean that we would not accept something that was close.
This is why the discussion turns to debate, and the debate turns to argument. We all have our opinions of which features and game mechanics we liked.
I have started to sort of change my stance though...but I still would like to know what the development approach on this would/could be. If the devs are going to have to work backward...I would say just get it as close as they can, and then tweak later.
If they have old backups, I say pick a publish, or date, and just go with that...then add fixes later.
I have a feeling that if either of those is not possible...that we will never likely see a Classic Shard, era based or pure...because the task of creating it from the ground up is likely going to be too costly and time consuming to undertake.
It didn't quite work that way, but you could "dodge" arrows per-se. But again, I can't explain exactly how that worked here.
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Antonio Cataneo
Guest
Well on the "famouse" T2A ruleset freeshard they researched the patch notes quite a bit, and referred to old stratics pages / newsgroup messages and such. If you need, i can shed light on some of those researches results. I think Insta-hit is the right choice, pvp was balanced in term of times, no 4 hits winz and no 1 hour long duels
Re: Classic shard: Narrowing the gaps
Opposed because Publish 15 is not an option here.
Pub 15 was one of the most balanced and fun periods in UO history, before Powerscrolls came in Pub 16 and trashed it.
Opposed because Publish 15 is not an option here.
Pub 15 was one of the most balanced and fun periods in UO history, before Powerscrolls came in Pub 16 and trashed it.
There has been general consensus that Classic will be a PvP shard, and long term players will mainly be PvPers.
Classic to appeal to former subscribers will have to be 100% Classic, not a unbalanced Trammelised version with harsher PK penalties, otherwise many former PvPers will not be interested.
Lets crunch the numbers. At the Tram-Fel split there were 260 000 subscribers. Estimates put the number of PvPers at 90-95%.
So lets just assume that Classic shard will target 26 000 PvPers.
Interest is only in additional profit, that is, new subscribers to UO.
Lets assume based on the fact that freeshards offer exactly the same product but for free and that there are other alternatives such as Darkfall and possibly soon Mortal Online, we get 20% initial interest. That is ~5000 new subscribers. Assuming there will be a 50% bleed rate after 6 months, this means 2500 ongoing new subscribers.
So are 2500 new ongoing subscribers worth 2 years of development, major bug fixing + balancing and ongoing bug fixing + content development? Will 2500 new subscribers, offset the high risk of subscribers on production shards leaving when there is no new content during much of this 2 year period?
OR is the far cheaper alternative to tweek Siege and nullify all item properties (nerf AOS) and reenable production shard skill gain, a better option? Or how about only PvP server and only PvM server options?
Classic to appeal to former subscribers will have to be 100% Classic, not a unbalanced Trammelised version with harsher PK penalties, otherwise many former PvPers will not be interested.
Lets crunch the numbers. At the Tram-Fel split there were 260 000 subscribers. Estimates put the number of PvPers at 90-95%.
So lets just assume that Classic shard will target 26 000 PvPers.
Interest is only in additional profit, that is, new subscribers to UO.
Lets assume based on the fact that freeshards offer exactly the same product but for free and that there are other alternatives such as Darkfall and possibly soon Mortal Online, we get 20% initial interest. That is ~5000 new subscribers. Assuming there will be a 50% bleed rate after 6 months, this means 2500 ongoing new subscribers.
So are 2500 new ongoing subscribers worth 2 years of development, major bug fixing + balancing and ongoing bug fixing + content development? Will 2500 new subscribers, offset the high risk of subscribers on production shards leaving when there is no new content during much of this 2 year period?
OR is the far cheaper alternative to tweek Siege and nullify all item properties (nerf AOS) and reenable production shard skill gain, a better option? Or how about only PvP server and only PvM server options?
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
1. Why don't they just "tweek" the shard you play on instead? Try explaining to Siege players why you are going to elminate their items, their houses (Malas has to go for it to be a Classic Shard), and their current skills (Chiv, Bushido, Necro...all gone also).
2. How in the _____ can making TWO new shards be less expensive/less work than making ONE?
You have pitched this idea here before, more than once...and no one seemed to like it. Seems like you might get the point...no?
We get it...you don't want a Classic Shard. Understood.
Now I will ask this...if Elvar, myself, and others are critized and warned about "spamming" other threads with Pro-Classic Shard "propaganda"...then why do we have to be subjected to being spammed with Anti-Classic Shard "propaganda" in the ONE SINGLE thread we are confined to??
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Absolutely!
Siege is at least closer to real UO than the other shards. If they were closing shards, Siege should be the LAST to go.
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Heartseeker
Guest
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I'll never tell :smoochMaybe you will....
How was your date darling?
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Heartseeker
Guest
Lol...I'll never tell :smoochMaybe you will....
How was your date darling?
Let me know if you are going to venture in again, and I'll promise to behave....
1. I didnt say make Siege a Classic shard, just make 2 tweeks to it, not eliminate skills and housing. However, I assumed that Siege players be happy with more people on their shard with 2 tweeks that I assumed that they would be happy with, but I stand corrected.
2. The bulk of a cost of a Classic shard project is personel, which I assume you as a VP of IT would know. Guess not. If it takes a team 2 years and then there are ongoing maintenance and content development, it is going to cost a lot. The cost of a 1 month project and/or a new server in comparison is trival.
Besides I thought this was a Classic shard discussion thread where you could discuss the merits and the demerits of developing one. I crunched the numbers, and based these numbers showed that the development of a Classic shard would have a net negative impact on UO subscribers. Guess you have no answer to valid criticisms otherwise you have have responsed differently.
btw If thread title changes to "Classic shard FANBOIS ONLY or we CRY to the MODS" I will not post to this thread any longer
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Sabbath
Guest
Great description...I'm sold! I'm not even a PVP'r but I would love to be chased through the forests again trying to make it back to town.
Classic shard =
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Oh please!
Do you read the other threads? ANY mention of a Classic Shard outside this thread is like voicing support of the freakin' Holocaust!!!
Don't whine because I called you out.
Oh, and I read your "numbers"...pure speculation.
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Heartseeker
Guest
I would like to thank you in advance, for not posting in this thread anymore....
The only one that is having a hissy fit is you.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I keep seeing this 2 years figure coming up and I wonder where are you getting it from? I don't recall the devs commenting on how long it would take them looks like you are just making numbers up for the sake of making your position look more valid then it is.
For the record I don't really see the issue with anyone who wants to post coming in on the discussion, but it just doesn't seem productive for someone to show up in the classic shard thread and go "well I'm opposed to the classic shard"
On the same hand some of the people that have been in this thread should probably cool it with mentioning classic in other threads, I can see how it might get annoying for other people who have no interest in it.
I don't think we need anymore attention on stratics, I mean this thread has been on top for how many days now? I don't think the devs are going to forget us anytime soon guys.
And for any newcomers to the discussion, welcome aboard!
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I agree. I have pretty much stopped mentioning it anywhere besides in this thread. The only time I have broken and mentioned it was after someone else slammed on Classic Shards in another thread. If one of us doesn't bring it up first, I see no foul in defending ourselves.
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Arch Magus
Guest
There is no downside to having a Classic Shard.
It gives the players more options of where and how they want to play.
And it will bring in players that haven't played in years.
These are good things.
The argument that it will draw people away from the current production shard they play on is bogus; many people play on different shards already because of the falling population.
The argument that blue miners, craftsmen, etc will be "picked on" is incredibly bogus; the only people coming to this would-be shard are veterans and people expecting this kind of gameplay and would be prepared for it. Not a bunch noobs who know nothing of UO or what they are getting into.
A classic shard is exactly what this game needs. And anyone arguing against it is a fool.
It gives the players more options of where and how they want to play.
And it will bring in players that haven't played in years.
These are good things.
The argument that it will draw people away from the current production shard they play on is bogus; many people play on different shards already because of the falling population.
The argument that blue miners, craftsmen, etc will be "picked on" is incredibly bogus; the only people coming to this would-be shard are veterans and people expecting this kind of gameplay and would be prepared for it. Not a bunch noobs who know nothing of UO or what they are getting into.
A classic shard is exactly what this game needs. And anyone arguing against it is a fool.
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Arch Magus
Guest
As far as "cost" to EA to run this shard....
people have been running free-shards, for 'free' for many years, and have had very impressive results.
people have been running free-shards, for 'free' for many years, and have had very impressive results.
Oh man... this is getting worrisome, not a good feeling about this all.
But people stopped asking for my opinion a while ago, time for me to go again.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Oh man... this is getting worrisome, not a good feeling about this all.
But people stopped asking for my opinion a while ago, time for me to go again.
Worrisome? Don't be worried...good things are going to happen...you will see.
There is no downside to having a Classic Shard.
It gives the players more options of where and how they want to play.
And it will bring in players that haven't played in years.
These are good things.
The argument that it will draw people away from the current production shard they play on is bogus; many people play on different shards already because of the falling population.
The argument that blue miners, craftsmen, etc will be "picked on" is incredibly bogus; the only people coming to this would-be shard are veterans and people expecting this kind of gameplay and would be prepared for it. Not a bunch noobs who know nothing of UO or what they are getting into.
A classic shard is exactly what this game needs. And anyone arguing against it is a fool.
/thread
If a Classic shard takes 1 month to develop, there is no question, do it.
The argument is not if players will move from production shards to Classic. That is irrelevant. It is will the Classic shard project bring about more UO subscribers, and it is this the best option that will give the best result for the cost.
So if the Classic shard takes 2 years of intense development focus to get to the stage where all you need is just normal ongoing maintenance and some new content, there is a downside.
Imagine if in the 2 years of intense Classic shard development focus there are long periods where the production shards are ignored. Remember the KR client? UO lost so many subscribers during that period. Will the number of new Classic shard subscribers gained even offset the number of subscribers that will leave, when there are long periods of no new content during that 2 year period? imo No.
Show me where I am wrong. Crying that only fanbois should be allowed to post here only shows that this is a kamakazi project for EA.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Where do you keep coming up with this 2 year stuff? No one has ever even hinted that it would require 2 years to code a classic shard...even from the ground up.
I am not saying it won't...but I don't understand how you can keep saying it will.
And for the record...UO hit a peak just about the time AoS launched. Why? Most players that left for EQ had hit the ceiling there and had gotten bored. Also, Asheron's Call kicked the bucket around that time as well. A lot of old school players came back, tried AoS, didn't like it and slowly trickled out. The KR client didn't help anything. There was a small upswing in subs around that time, mostly because people were curious, but by then WoW was thriving.
The problem is, the expansions that EA has been releasing do not address the issue of bringing new players to the game, nor will they bring back anyone that left. The only thing these expansions, since Samurai Empire, have done is to part existing subscribers from their money...and to keep subscribers interested just until the new pixel crack arrives.
That model doesn't work. EverQuest tried it...and it failed. The type of gamer that games like EQ and WoW attract are not the kinds of gamer that UO attracts. UO cannot compete with WoW in graphics or itemization. Players in level based games like WoW eventually reach a ceiling. Then some other new game will come along with flashier graphics, and they will all move on to that game. But they won't be moving on to UO just because the devs pushed out another expansion that introduces 38 new neon colored overpowered items, 12 brand new uber monsters that can kill anyone without at least 18 of the 38 new neon colored overpowered items in one hit, and a landmass that makes absolutely no sense beyond the places one can farm the 38 new neon colored overpowered items.
The only people that even might come back to UO are the old players that left because of the types of expansions you are saying are necessary to the game's survival.
So the devs take an extra 6 months to get you and the other AoS fans your annual shipment of neon colored overpowered items and uber creatures and additional landmasses. Big freakin' deal. It's not going to cause the game to shut down. rolleyes:
This and the sooner the devs realize this the better off everyone will be.
Imagine if the game took an awful turn that lasted for ten years, and then after three awful expansions and two failed clients later, the team decides to keep going in the same direction.
Even if your two years is an accurate number which I highly doubt, but even if it is, I think that if we can sweat it out for ten years feeling ignored you guys can live with two.
If the current model is so hot now, then where are the new subscribers? people try to blame it on lack of advertising but heavy advertising is generally done for a game that is projected to make a decent amount of money, UO is a niche game, it's not going to get huge again ever and EA knows that.
As long as the game pulls in more then it costs to maintain they will likely keep it running while giving the dev team a modest budget to continue some small time development.
We cannot be certain a classic shard will bring in a lot of old players but we can't be certain that it won't either. I've heard some people say over and over why would players leave their free shards, and it's not that hard to answer, in fact ask some of the people that play those shards on their forums and they will tell you the one thing they can get on an EA shard is security.
Knowing the shard will be there as long as the game is up and it is profitable is a comforting feeling, also not having to deal with big headed egotistical player run staff is another thing that has caused the downfall of more than a few of those free shards.
I doubt it will cost that much to develop a classic shard, that's my opinion of course but I don't see how they lose out on it, it's obviously generated some interest and not just on stratics there are players on other free shard forums paying attention to this thread.
Once we all decide on a publish to launch the other major argument is knocked out, the whole "they can't even decide what they want" argument to be specific.
I think if EA jumps on the idea within the next few months they have a shot at drawing a fair number of old vets back, I don't see much of a downside.
Just my two cents.
This is a pretty simple scenario really. Either EA/Mythic continues doing what they are doing which will guarantee the end of UO, or they can try something else (the classic shard) and risk failure, but gain the potential for survival.
The choice seems pretty clear to me.
Also, I can say with near certainty that a 2 year time frame for server development is highly unlikely.
The choice seems pretty clear to me.
Also, I can say with near certainty that a 2 year time frame for server development is highly unlikely.
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Antonio Cataneo
Guest
You managed to sum it up very wellThere is no downside to having a Classic Shard.
It gives the players more options of where and how they want to play.
And it will bring in players that haven't played in years.
These are good things.
The argument that it will draw people away from the current production shard they play on is bogus; many people play on different shards already because of the falling population.
The argument that blue miners, craftsmen, etc will be "picked on" is incredibly bogus; the only people coming to this would-be shard are veterans and people expecting this kind of gameplay and would be prepared for it. Not a bunch noobs who know nothing of UO or what they are getting into.
A classic shard is exactly what this game needs. And anyone arguing against it is a fool.
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Connor_Graham
Guest
Except for the not insignificant initial start-up costs (including a LOT of Dev hours) and the daily cost to run it....
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Antonio Cataneo
Guest
i really doubt that it would fail so hard to do not cover them. The old UO system is legendary , now that the MMORPG users are MUCH MORE than the old times, i bet that there would be a HUGE mass of people ready to subscribe for that kind of server
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Babble
Guest
Or EA could say .. Hey we develop a Star Wars MMO and also expect to have more than a million players.. What is that UO about and why should those GMs not support our new and shiny product.
Will be interesting to see what EA decides upon. As far as I heard DAOC did not get their classic servers, so why should UO now that Bioware runs the MMO department?
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Derrick83
Guest
Personally I would agree to everything you have in bold in your posts about the patch notes. Since they will likely be working backwards to provide this shard to us, I say we include all the patches included in the T2A era into the game initially. This is 4-5 big patches that the dev working on this shard would not have to reverse code out of the game.. and most of the pieces in those patches are bug fixes and additions like stacking of items that should have been stackable to begin with etc...
THEN, if their are mechanics, systems, items etc.. that we DONT want in after the shard is released.. the devs can hold an In-game poll addressing these issues. A message that a new poll is available. Click a button on the paperdoll to access the existing poll system and see the available polls.
Even additions.. like the chaos/order being elaborated on for more non pk related pvp(which can be a deterrent from PKing too). Chaos/order was a existing system that never got any better but had some potential. So, take a ingame poll after server is created to see if people are ok deviating a little from the original and making that existing system functional.
Change is NOT bad.. change can be good. Certain changes are bad though and those are the ones we want to avoid. No better way than letting the people who inhabit the shatd decide if that is something they want. Since not everyone uses stratics its most fair to get the shard up with a base ruleset and let everyone have a opportunity to let their voice be heard. It wouldn't be fair to vote on here right now because their is a few hundred on here... when the shard goes live I predict several thousands coming back and their voice matters too and taking votes on those issues here would seclude their voices.
The devs can get their ideas of what polls to create based upon the discussion here. Things like special moves etc would be a big issue. Dexers are severely nerfed without them etc.. but as you said.. if we had a classic T2A shard a lot of these things would be left out.
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Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
So I've been running around on that unmentionable t2a server, and I've noticed so far one thing I'd like to see in an EA run classic shard...
The houses that were released with Ren. Not the custom houses, but things like the Villa, the small tower, the workshop etc... I really liked the look of those, and I have fond memories of my Villa outside of Yew.
I don't recall if anything was mentioned about those Ren style houses, but I most defiantly do not want to see custom housing in an EA classic shard.
The houses that were released with Ren. Not the custom houses, but things like the Villa, the small tower, the workshop etc... I really liked the look of those, and I have fond memories of my Villa outside of Yew.
I don't recall if anything was mentioned about those Ren style houses, but I most defiantly do not want to see custom housing in an EA classic shard.
Thus ensuring you will be making a shard for PvP and nothing else. Custom housing is one of UO's greatest achievements. Is has nothing to do with pvp or non pvp. I think you guys should go with the housing rules that lets anyone use a bunch of tables to loot everything you got. No lockdowns & no secures.
This shard will be full of tank mages and disarm thieves. It's gonna be great!
Not really Connor. You see when they open it they will make LOADS of money back on the initial investment. The current thinking is there will need to be an addition login server just to handle the requests for this one shard. If you go back through the thread you will also find that people will be willing to pay for a whole new box like it was a new game and everything. This idea is foolproof.
PS - If you want to get your point across Connor you must bold words in your responses. It's all the rage.
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Connor_Graham
Guest
Well in my opinion, due to the pvp implications, there should be no custom housing. You couldn't house fight as easily with the old style housing, and in my opinion, that is a good thing...
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Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
Secure housing storage was introduced during T2A, including lockdowns. Yeah, a PK could steal your key and get into your house and loot anything that wasn't secure or locked down, but hey, that was part of the risk you run if you have your key out with you and you're not prepared to fight.
As for tank mages...a well prepared dex monkey can take them as long as they have chugged a white pot and are well prepared so they survive the first big dps dump.
Disarm thieves? Doesn't everybody have an arm macro saved into UOA so they can quickly rearm before the thief steals their weapons?
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Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
That is part of the reason I don't want custom housing. That and all the eyesores that are out there. I do however love the look of the Ren era houses, most especially the large marble and the villa. my only sadness is that they removed the Large house with patio. I would love to see all the houses before house customization came around able to be placed on a classic shard.
I agree. I wouldn't have any problem with all the housing before customization, and I don't see why anyone else would.
I want tents back!
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Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
My first house was a tent on the road between trinsic and britain, almost to the bridge.
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Derrick83
Guest
Open your paperdoll
Double click a dagger and target your weapon while its in your hand.
Arm "disarm" ability.
Run up and attack and hit steal macro.
As soon as disarm hits, hit last target.
I did this a lot and your little UOA macros arent fast enough. Theirs a small delay anyways and if your dont know its coming you lose your weapon.
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spade gt
Guest
Agreed. I would be happy to see the Ren houses added in April 2000, but I'm definitely against custom housing. Neat concept, but way too many eyesores on the landscape.
Large brick = best house
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