Classic shard.

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Ever heard the phrase "Those who aren't familiar with history are doomed to repeat it?"

I, much like you, agree with your hayday. I would go for a T2A '98 set in a heartbeat, exactly as it was... You and I, we're not the kind of people Trammel was made for. I and anyone else discussing this problem aren't talking about people like you and me.

But if you want the shard to thrive, grow, and prosper in the long run, you can't just prop one up and expect a different outcome. It's literally the definition of insanity. You have to address the issues that caused that version of the shard to die in the first place.

I too want PK's - It made challenge, excitement, and it made me get smarter as a player. It made it a real world. I was ganked, killed, looted, everything possible.. I'm not saying that was the problem.

But to be able to kill with abandon, grief (Not just steal a recall scroll), and all around *******s are want got enough people pissed at the game enough to want to stop playing..

Would I have quit had Trammel never happened? Hell no. Would others? When they say it was bleeding subscribers before Tram, I tend to believe them.. Otherwise they wouldn't have invested so heavily and bet so big on their solution, for better or worse.. No one does this for nothing.

Good post Coldren! And exactly on point.

I will play devil's advocate here for a second though...

If they had launched Trammel as separate shards, instead of spliting the world, I think less people would have quit because of Trammel. That probably would have been a better business decision, because they would have retained more subscribers.

I know a lot of players that quit because of Trammel. There are a lot of them posting here in this thread.

Now, you should know by now...I don't think Trammel was the right way to go, regardless of if they put in on separate servers.

My greatest desire for a Classic Shard, besides getting to play in the old ruleset again, is to see it launched...keep a solid subscriber base...and show Trammel fans that UO CAN survive without Trammel.

Personally, I think everyone that wants a Classic Shard should want that as well. Even if it means a few tweaks to make sure it happens.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

BTW...I see you lurking over there in the shadows Rico

 

[dinanm3atl]

Why do we seek to penalize PKs? That's a good question. Why did OSI seek to penalize PKs from day 1?

If you will remember, from the very first day of Ultima Online, there were penalties in place for being evil. Initially, it was the noto system. Once you dropped to Dread Lord, you could not go into guard zones. NPCs would not rez you, and players that healed you or rez'ed you lost noto.

That didn't work. PKs just did what they wanted to do.

So OSI changed the Noto system to the Rep system. They added murder counts, stat loss, etc.

That didn't work. PKs just did what they wanted to do.

So they split the world and gave everyone that didn't want to deal with PKs Trammel.

Everybody left Felucca except PKs and PvPers and people that had houses there.

With no victims left, the PKs left the game mostly.

Look how many people are in this thread that are currently NOT playing UO because of Trammel. Take a look at the posts of these players, and you will see that most of them are advocating for similar things that you seem to be. Easier rules for PKs, or at least no additional rules for PKs.

Here's the problem with that:

History proves that won't work. PKs will do what they want to do.

And then you will end up with an entire shard that is like Fel. Empty except for a PvPers. The victims will leave, the PKs will leave again. And you will have a very lightly populated shard of nothing but PvPers.

I don't find that history says that. Do we have some numbers for subscriptions of this time period? Walk through the dungeons and people are in there. Brit bank was packed. Hell VESPER bank and Occolo bank had their own 'normal' users. The Lvl 5 drag room in Covetous had 3-5 people ALWAYS on Atlantic. It wasn't just PvP or PK or nothing at that point with everyone quitting... not from my experience.

With what you are saying it is penalize PKs so they won't play but the PvM guys will have free run to do as they please. Where is the middle point? If you go to a certain point thenthose that was to PK won't even sign up because if they die the time spent to get back to be able to PK will be terrible. So now we have Fel but like Trammel because you have no risk... no one is PKing.

In the beginning I feel it would be months of low PK action. There will be NO money. 100gp. Becoming a mage cost money. The skill gain is NOT fast if we are going with Classic Oct 98 setup. We won't really be able to say for certain what will happen except the dungeons will be empty. We will have to run through them to mark runes. We will have to mine to make some money. Etc

 

[Coldren]

I will play devil's advocate here for a second though...

If they had launched Trammel as separate shards, instead of spliting the world, I think less people would have quit because of Trammel. That probably would have been a better business decision, because they would have retained more subscribers.

I know a lot of players that quit because of Trammel. There are a lot of them posting here in this thread.

Now, you should know by now...I don't think Trammel was the right way to go, regardless of if they put in on separate servers.

My greatest desire for a Classic Shard, besides getting to play in the old ruleset again, is to see it launched...keep a solid subscriber base...

Certainly not going to disagree with a word of this.... But then..

..and show Trammel fans that UO CAN survive without Trammel. .

Quite frankly, that sounds a bit like trying say "I told you so!" when there really isn't a need to.

They'll still have their prodo shards, and they are welcome to them. I just want my classic shard in any shape or form I can get it, and if it happens to do better, well, good for me. If they have the foresight to address issues differently after seeing that it is a model that will thrive in the current MMO space, even better.

But I don't have any feelings of hostility towards those who enjoy the current system - That would be petty. And really, I don't even dislike those who are adamantly against a classic shard, even if they'd never play it. Life is full of people like this, and you just have to look beyond them. Much like the KR artwork people, I don't agree with them, but they are welcome to their opinion and I hope UO will one day provide them with what they want.. but I want what I want, too.

Not saying I always RESPOND in such a way, but just sayin'.. "showing" anyone anything, rarely helps a cause.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

If the developers really had interest in this, there are so many things that a new shard could have. The base premise would be centered around an old play set, but many of the new features (the creature comforts) could be taken and inserted into this new shard to maximise the best qualities of old and new...la

 

[Lord Chaos]

Why should the development team focus on new content?

All content and publish`s since AOS have resulted in a severe decline in playerbase. Every month of every year there are less and less players subscribing.

It is obvious this new content has done nothing but drive players away from UO.

A classic server is the only hope UO has left, otherwise the game will be shut down.

/thread
/argument

well said sir

lol, that was pretty much a big joke.

 

[Coldren]

With what you are saying it is penalize PKs so they won't play but the PvM guys will have free run to do as they please. Where is the middle point?

When players PvM'ing can rob you of everything you have on your character, your time, and frustrate you.. You let me know, because then it will be at a "middle point".

Again, I am not against PK'ing, but rampant PK'ing, griefing, and overall jerks were the problem to begin with. Not PK'ing itself. I and others are in no way advocating the complete and utter elimination of PK'ing, but we certainly want it to be something that is done with care, purpose, and careful consideration.

And it won't be like Trammel, because there will be none of the abomination that was AoS, no insurance, one world (Original and T2A), the old skills, and full loot.. There is gain and risk again, more so than Tram. Guild wars/factions are perfect opt-ins for people who want to kill others who want to kill with impunity - The wolves can hunt the wolves again, and occasionally still get their sheep.

To say wanting to curb rampant PK'ing is the same as Trammel is... Well.. Wrong.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

With what you are saying it is penalize PKs so they won't play but the PvM guys will have free run to do as they please. Where is the middle point? If you go to a certain point thenthose that was to PK won't even sign up because if they die the time spent to get back to be able to PK will be terrible. So now we have Fel but like Trammel because you have no risk... no one is PKing.

Exaggerating much?

The only real changes I have suggested...and didn't later admit they were a bad idea (like jail and perma death) are:

Stat loss on death
Permanent stat loss (no timer, you have to work your skills back up)
And an alternate method of burning off counts other than UMing (which is against the ToS agreement!)

How would these prevent anyone from PKing?

You are asking ME where the middle is...but you are conceeding NOTHING. To me, the opposite ends of the spectrum in this debate are:

X----------------------------------------------------------------------Y

X= no penalties for PKs at all
Y= Trammel

I would say that my suggestions, and OSI's original penalty system, are some where around here:

X---------------OSI---Me----------------------------------------------Y

With things like perma death and jail falling much, much closer to Y.

 

[dinanm3atl]

Murder Counts and 'working' them off and stat lose was fine by me. I had no problem. Maybe since I was of a certain caliber I simply did not die that much. I watch for PKs. I also notice things like someone I have NEVER seen... blue player. Recall in. Be there for 3 seconds. Recall out. Hrmmmmm be on guard. Gate... *Cast Recall*

Oh look 4 reds. Click. I am gone. I simply wasn't affected for the most part. I wasn't griefed. I was barely PK'd. I just don't think anything than what was there is necessary. And the problem is this... we cannot set something up that we beleive is right because it won't be tested for months. With a fresh shard it will be starting from scratch. There will be nothing there at all. So it is not like we get any sort of actual feedback.

What is your actual proposal. You never replied to me directly with what it is actually is. I think Mudercount/Stat lose is plenty. What extra measure are you looking for?

*edit*

Nevermind you said it.

You are proposing that if they die they are penalized. If they res they get penalized. Then they have to 'work' them off. Thus they need to play and do something that gets their stats back. The skills. Depending on which they are would require them to just sit around with other reds and be bored.

You have to look at it from the other side. I am a PK. I get penalized for choosing that character type. Well if you are virtuous Anti-PK player. You get killed. You res. Hit bank. Done. How is that fair? Now of course they are 'evil' but who are we to say their character gets penalized on death but yours doesn't?

*edit edit*

One can say one thing. Look at this forum. 99% of the threads have sub 20 post. This one has 1900+ and hopefully EA sees this. It is a SOLID topic and LOTS of support.

 

[Ray_]

Now, its statments like this that tell me you DEFINITELY played Pre-Ren.



Not necessarily. The suggestions offered are methods to make sure becoming a red is taken seriously, make players have to prepair to be one instead of just doing it on a whim. They wouldnt eliminate reds, just make it harder to be one. People will still snap and kill someone who is annoying them, or looted their kill, or are just being a general asswipe.




Well, the reason PKing went down after Reniassance is because it wasnt PKing anymore, it was all straight up PvP, red vs red and guild vs guild. Publish 16 PvP changes were pretty much pointless at that time.

Cats in 99 had its share of PKs I remember that. never really saw their numbers go down there. Atlantic and Chessapeake, from my experince, had the same number, but people will say differently......

........mostly to a degree of exaggeration.



Not really, man. Stat-loss can be recovered from, perma-death cant because its kinda......permanent. So, Stat-loss is the substantial lesser of the two evils.



Youre going to need something, some sort of extra hurdle for reds to deal with if you are going to appease the PvM crowd without completely killing the open PvP. If stat loss fits the bill, then go with it.



Yeah, there are consequences, but they want more. They want to feel like the player behind the character has been hurt or inconvenienced because they feel like the PKer killed them for personal reasons.

They want to be protected by the game, and not the edge of their own blades.




I understand this completely. My game play experience back then was pretty much like this too, though my character builds were a little different.



I dont remember there being show names of approaching players in T2A. Post Ren, yeah, but not T2A.

I actually liked it that way, with no approaching names. It kept some air of mystery as to who was coming. You didnt know if that guy walking towards you was going to attack you, ignore you, or say "Hail" then continue on their way.



Its kinda ironic, isnt it? When you were killed in a guild war and looted, it was PvP, but when you were killed and looted by a red, it was griefing. Ironic....and hypocritical. I actually remember guild wars being way more vicious than PKing. There was this one vampire RP guild who wiped the guild I was running with one night in Trinsic. The vamps camped the healer and kept killing us as we rezed. They did it to me once and I decided to just run to another town as a ghost. The other members of the guild kept trying to rez though. I quit that guild that night.



I think you might be mixing things up with T2A and Reniassance. Show names of approaching players wasnt in with The Second Age. That was definitely a post Reniassance thing.

But, yes, people knew to recall out when they clicked on someone and their name came up red. Another trick was to mine in war mode hidden and run your cursor over anyone who came along to check their color.



Well, there was some risk in trammel if you got DC'd in a dungeon. Right after trammel was put in, people would start purposely luring monsters around other players then going invis or hiding to make the monsters attack someone else. if it worked, the intended target would get overwhelmed and killed by the mobs. Sometimes the monsters would take items from the corpse of the person who got killed. The person who lured the monsters would kill them and get the item(s) the monster took from the corpse.

The rest of the time, the person who did the luring waiting around the body for it to turn to bones. After a body went to bones in Trammel, it was open, penalty free loot.



True. Trammel swung the door for gold farmers and bots wide open with a big neon welcome sign. Open PvP made bot mining and gold farming impossible because people knew what to look for in a script bot and killed them.

Don't have time to fully respond, just wanted to say that this is a good reply (aside from the all names thing which someone already pointed out).


I still say that Dec. '99/Jan. '00 is the best time to work from. Most of the T2A bugs and mistakes were fixed or corrected. Thinks like runebooks and kegs were in. Statloss was in. Precasting/instahit worked perfectly. Combat was supremely balanced. Good times.

 

[HD2300]

If the developers really had interest in this, there are so many things that a new shard could have. The base premise would be centered around an old play set, but many of the new features (the creature comforts) could be taken and inserted into this new shard to maximise the best qualities of old and new...la

Yes. Why would EA spend 2 years plus redeveloping from the ground up exactly what UO was like 10 years ago, when there are better cheaper alternatives.

The main gripe is AOS items. Well just negate all item properties in the new shard. Takes a week or 2, not 2+ years.

Want to PvP with tons more players against the best of the best. Setup 4 PvP only supershards, one in each datacenter (west coast, east coast, asia, europe). It is just Seige with insurance enabled and production shard skill gain enabled. How long would that take to setup?

How about giving non PvPers some love? Setup 4 consentual only PvP supershards aka Trammel only supershards, one in each datacenter. It is just a PvP only shard except with non-consentual PvP disabled. How long would that take?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Insurance has no buisness on a "classic" shard...la

 

[pilawhitetrash]

as another player who started uo in early 1998, my 2 cents is this - enough people know what the true UO was about to get this thing started. people should not be as shocked or annoyed at getting killed because they know it can happen and can expect it. it is part of the game.

there are enough experienced players out there divided on multiple free shards looking for what this classic shard could bring them all together for. unite the clans braveheart style and get this beast going.

with games like WOW, mmorpg's are more popular than ever and there is now a VAST market out there that did not exist in 1998. start marketing towards this new generation once this thing has been operating for a bit and go from there.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Yes. Why would EA spend 2 years plus redeveloping from the ground up exactly what UO was like 10 years ago, when there are better cheaper alternatives.

The main gripe is AOS items. Well just negate all item properties in the new shard. Takes a week or 2, not 2+ years.

Want to PvP with tons more players against the best of the best. Setup 4 PvP only supershards, one in each datacenter (west coast, east coast, asia, europe). It is just Seige with insurance enabled and production shard skill gain enabled. How long would that take to setup?

How about giving non PvPers some love? Setup 4 consentual only PvP supershards aka Trammel only supershards, one in each datacenter. It is just a PvP only shard except with non-consentual PvP disabled. How long would that take?

I know I said I was leaving the discussion, but this guy is simply to annoying to leave uncontested. First of all you have no business throwing your own projected time frame for how long it would take a dev team to put this together, it's silly and does nothing to help your point.

For all you know it could take three weeks to a month, it's all speculation so welcome back to the group. Secondly there wasn't one main gripe in regards to a classic shard, there are at least three I will list and I think most people discussing this will agree.

1) AOS item/neon garbage
2) Trammel
3) Item Insurance

If you want consensual pvp there are plenty of shards already out there catering to your playstyle, most of them are empty, I suggest you take a step back and take a look at why that is.

The problem with people who are opposed to the idea coming into this thread and posting things like this is simple, most of you are operating under the premise that we "can't agree on what classic means" well that premise is a faulty one, we have agreed on what classic means, that doesn't preclude us from discussing some minor game play tweaks.

There is an enormous difference between the small issues we have talked about and game breaking mechanics like trammel/insurance. I say go ahead and launch servers T2A, my only real request is that precasting be taken out as it was later considered a bug and removed, I can find the patch notes where it was specifically refered to as being a bug as well if anyone needs to see that.

Actually I'll just go ahead and post it right here http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_2

And I quote specifically from the page "The bug involving the ability to “pre-cast” spells and then use or take items will be fixed. After casting a spell, the targeting cursor will disappear if the player does any of the following:
Equips or unequips an item.
Takes an item.
Drags an item from their backpack."

 

[HD2300]

My greatest desire for a Classic Shard, besides getting to play in the old ruleset again, is to see it launched...keep a solid subscriber base...and show Trammel fans that UO CAN survive without Trammel.

I prefer that UO not just survices, but thrives.

imo this means PvP only supershards, Trammel only supershards and if a Classic shard is developed, also a Trammel only Classic shard. That way most people will be happy.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

What is your actual proposal. You never replied to me directly with what it is actually is. I think Mudercount/Stat lose is plenty. What extra measure are you looking for?

A lot of things get buried in this thread...it's cool if people miss things.

Nevermind you said it.

You are proposing that if they die they are penalized. If they res they get penalized. Then they have to 'work' them off. Thus they need to play and do something that gets their stats back. The skills. Depending on which they are would require them to just sit around with other reds and be bored.

It's not so cool when people claim that they read what you posted, but then intentionally mis-represent what you said though.

My proposal (revised a little for clarity):

-Stat loss occurs on death (never rez) and is permanent. That means the skills and stats don't come back until you work the skills back up.

-A red could choose to go into exile (at any time, as long as they had counts). This would help to eliminate UMing off counts. Murder counts would only come off in dungeons...so a player could UM off their counts...but it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

A red would say "I wish to enter exile"...a menu would come up, and that red would pick a dungeon from a list of specific dungeons. These 'exile' dungeons would be considered "advanced" dungeons...so they would not include the really popular dungeons (Destard for example) or any of the newbie dungeons (Brit sewers, Shame) actually...a lot of that would be up to the devs...and perhaps the list could change from time to time to keep people on their toes.

Once in exile, the counts begin coming off for every hour the red plays. He or she doesn't have to PK anyone during exile, but they can...with NO counts. Also, in exile, they can die and rez all they want without stat loss. if they die, they can be looted like anyone else...so re-equiping will be a challenge...but they can loot players and monsters while in exile. But, they cannot leave the dungeon without leaving exile.

Reds can leave exile at anytime by just saying "I wish to leave exile". At that point they are free to do whatever they want. They can go back to PKing, they can go anywhere they are ordinarily allowed. But if they die, they face stat loss.

That's my proposal.

Consider this though...the exact amount of time per murder, the amount of stat loss per murder, etc...all of that is something that could be adjusted. If the system proved to be too harsh, those factors could be lowered, if not harsh enough, they could be raised.

You have to look at it from the other side. I am a PK. I get penalized for choosing that character type. Well if you are virtuous Anti-PK player. You get killed. You res. Hit bank. Done. How is that fair? Now of course they are 'evil' but who are we to say their character gets penalized on death but yours doesn't?

You make a good point. But consider that the people reds are killing are being penalized because they are losing everything they are carrying, and their gameplay is being interrupted. So they are the ones being penalized for choosing that type of character...because the red chose the type of character he chose.

There has to be give and take.

Blue players that don't want to PvP pay the price with their goods that reds take.

Reds pay the price with murder counts and stat loss.

Anti's don't really pay a price, beyond losing everything they are carrying when they die...but they are only hunting reds to help non-PvPers.

One can say one thing. Look at this forum. 99% of the threads have sub 20 post. This one has 1900+ and hopefully EA sees this. It is a SOLID topic and LOTS of support.

I know! Isn't it awesome! Yet, if you mention this topic outside of this thread, the people on the forum will treat you like Hitler.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Basically the problem is that its too easy to be a criminal and too hard to be a cop in the game, and much worse to be a victim.

This lack of balance in the game, is something that was never adressed and is why a classic server would disintegrate slowly.

Also again, why on earth would people pay for it?

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I prefer that UO not just survices, but thrives.

imo this means PvP only supershards, Trammel only supershards and if a Classic shard is developed, also a Trammel only Classic shard. That way most people will be happy.

This thread is not for the discussion of trammel anything, I don't mean to sound hostile but this is not the thread for anything trammel/insurance/supershard etc.
We are promoting/discussing a T2A era classic shard, if you wish to discuss those things why not campaign for them in a new thread?

I just don't like the thread being disrupted by things the majority of players looking for classic T2A era do not want to see. Believe me if the devs held a gun to my head and said plain and simple will you accept T2A at launch I would say sure despite my feelings on how it would go. I would rather see it launch as it was and die months later then to see aos/trammel/insurance anywhere near it.

 

[Trebr Drab]

What is your actual proposal. You never replied to me directly with what it is actually is. I think Mudercount/Stat lose is plenty. What extra measure are you looking for?

A lot of things get buried in this thread...it's cool if people miss things.

Nevermind you said it.

You are proposing that if they die they are penalized. If they res they get penalized. Then they have to 'work' them off. Thus they need to play and do something that gets their stats back. The skills. Depending on which they are would require them to just sit around with other reds and be bored.

It's not so cool when people claim that they read what you posted, but then intentionally mis-represent what you said though.

My proposal (revised a little for clarity):

-Stat loss occurs on death (never rez) and is permanent. That means the skills and stats don't come back until you work the skills back up.

-A red could choose to go into exile (at any time, as long as they had counts). This would help to eliminate UMing off counts. Murder counts would only come off in dungeons...so a player could UM off their counts...but it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

A red would say "I wish to enter exile"...a menu would come up, and that red would pick a dungeon from a list of specific dungeons. These 'exile' dungeons would be considered "advanced" dungeons...so they would not include the really popular dungeons (Destard for example) or any of the newbie dungeons (Brit sewers, Shame) actually...a lot of that would be up to the devs...and perhaps the list could change from time to time to keep people on their toes.

Once in exile, the counts begin coming off for every hour the red plays. He or she doesn't have to PK anyone during exile, but they can...with NO counts. Also, in exile, they can die and rez all they want without stat loss. if they die, they can be looted like anyone else...so re-equiping will be a challenge...but they can loot players and monsters while in exile. But, they cannot leave the dungeon without leaving exile.

Reds can leave exile at anytime by just saying "I wish to leave exile". At that point they are free to do whatever they want. They can go back to PKing, they can go anywhere they are ordinarily allowed. But if they die, they face stat loss.

That's my proposal.

Consider this though...the exact amount of time per murder, the amount of stat loss per murder, etc...all of that is something that could be adjusted. If the system proved to be too harsh, those factors could be lowered, if not harsh enough, they could be raised.

You have to look at it from the other side. I am a PK. I get penalized for choosing that character type. Well if you are virtuous Anti-PK player. You get killed. You res. Hit bank. Done. How is that fair? Now of course they are 'evil' but who are we to say their character gets penalized on death but yours doesn't?

You make a good point. But consider that the people reds are killing are being penalized because they are losing everything they are carrying, and their gameplay is being interrupted. So they are the ones being penalized for choosing that type of character...because the red chose the type of character he chose.

There has to be give and take.

Blue players that don't want to PvP pay the price with their goods that reds take.

Reds pay the price with murder counts and stat loss.

Anti's don't really pay a price, beyond losing everything they are carrying when they die...but they are only hunting reds to help non-PvPers.

One can say one thing. Look at this forum. 99% of the threads have sub 20 post. This one has 1900+ and hopefully EA sees this. It is a SOLID topic and LOTS of support.

I know! Isn't it awesome! Yet, if you mention this topic outside of this thread, the people on the forum will treat you like Hitler.

Ghosting off counts is perceived as no punishment by the victims. It was back then, and it will be again.

If we want a "classic based" shard to keep players, other than heavy PvPers, we need two things.
A) A punishment strong enough to inhibit rampant PKing.
B) A punishment that the other players, the victims, see as a true punishment.

That's the biggest thing I see as a drawback to ghosting off counts.

Allowing PKers to burn off counts while exiled in dungeons, to me, seems again like a no punishment system. Even less so. This won't reduce PKing. What it will do is give reds a free ride in the dungeons, free to abuse the system for their guildmates to loot. Blue friends can even go as far as to lead other players into traps prearranged for the purpose.

 

[dinanm3atl]

Can you more explain your system? I wasn't trying to misrepresent what you said...

PK dies. Has 20 kills.

He loses stat/skills instantly. He chooses to just have friend res. He loses more stats/skills instantly. Now he can 'play' the game(or macro or dungeon crawl or duel with people) to get the stats/skills back. Is this part correct?

Is 'exile' it's own dungeon? All red? Is there a bank? They are essentially forced into dungeon crawling to run through their murder count? Is that what I understand?

 

[Lady_Rachel]

Basically the problem is that its too easy to be a criminal and too hard to be a cop in the game, and much worse to be a victim.

This lack of balance in the game, is something that was never adressed and is why a classic server would disintegrate slowly.

Also again, why on earth would people pay for it?

That's it!!!!

Add in penalties for Pking...but also add in bonuses for defending others.
Stat gains, regen gains, whatever..

Finish the virtues and....ack!..it escapes me..which is the one that was suppose to be a defender? You watched over and helped another player.

Add a reward to being a defender. Something to make peeps want to patrol and defend those in need.

Balance the two...if they had done that instead of Trammel?
Pk'ers had a penalty, Defenders got a buff?

 

[Kotu Farland]

Add in penalties for Pking...

There were penalties for PKing. It was called statloss and caused the PK to lose MONTHS of work. I guess losing MONTHS OF SKILLGAIN isnt a penalty?

Basically the problem is that its too easy to be a criminal and too hard to be a cop in the game, and much worse to be a victim.

Really?

The criminal (murderer) has to macro off 8 hours per kill to avoid statloss and 40 hours PER KILL to avoid being freely attackable to anyone.

The blue only loses their loot when they die, the same loss murderer takes without all the additional penalty's.

Obviously its sooo easy to be a murder and sooo hard to be a blue. rolleyes:


Does the victim lose 8 hours of gameplay because they died?
No but the PK does...





Frankly alot of you dont know what your talking about.
ANYONE who plays OSI shards at this point have been playing in a trammel environment for 7+ years minimum. Is it any shock this group of trammel players are opposed to the very idea of PKing?

If anyone here was actually interested in a true risk vs reward system none of you would be playing production shards.

 

[dinanm3atl]

Ghosting off counts is perceived as no punishment by the victims. It was back then, and it will be again.

If we want a "classic based" shard to keep players, other than heavy PvPers, we need two things.
A) A punishment strong enough to inhibit rampant PKing.
B) A punishment that the other players, the victims, see as a true punishment.

That's the biggest thing I see as a drawback to ghosting off counts.

Allowing PKers to burn off counts while exiled in dungeons, to me, seems again like a no punishment system. Even less so. This won't reduce PKing. What it will do is give reds a free ride in the dungeons, free to abuse the system for their guildmates to loot. Blue friends can even go as far as to lead other players into traps prearranged for the purpose.

Sorry but that last sentence sounds like life in the middle ages... you got duped into a trap. Sorry. You are dead and all your stuff is gone. We have to give them some sort of DECENT option to get back to PKing or they won't play and you have WoW/Trammel/EQ/Whatevercarebeargame...

They are dead. They are forced to macro or sit around or whatever for hours. Isn't it 8 hours per kill? Is tht the number? Or was it 40? Or just flat 40? If it is 8 hours per kill... that is DAYS if they have 20+ kills...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

enough people know what the true UO was about to get this thing started. people should not be as shocked or annoyed at getting killed because they know it can happen and can expect it. it is part of the game.

This is a VERY valid point.

I think that it is evident by all the negative responses we get outside of this thread from Trammies that are afraid of a Classic Shard. They know what to expect from one, and want no part of it.

The question is...is that acceptable? Should a Classis Shard appeal only to PvP'ers?

If that is the goal, then I throw my hat in the ring with all those saying pure T2A...and I agree that the last publish before 16 is the best to go with.

Otherwise...I think more thought needs to be given to luring at least some non-PvPers to the shard.

 

[Trebr Drab]

If anyone here was actually interested in a true risk vs reward system none of you would be playing production shards.

Who the hell wants a "risk vs. reward" system? That's all risk for the non-PKers, and all reward for the PKers.

Obviously, the PKers want it.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ghosting off counts is perceived as no punishment by the victims. It was back then, and it will be again.

If we want a "classic based" shard to keep players, other than heavy PvPers, we need two things.
A) A punishment strong enough to inhibit rampant PKing.
B) A punishment that the other players, the victims, see as a true punishment.

That's the biggest thing I see as a drawback to ghosting off counts.

Allowing PKers to burn off counts while exiled in dungeons, to me, seems again like a no punishment system. Even less so. This won't reduce PKing. What it will do is give reds a free ride in the dungeons, free to abuse the system for their guildmates to loot. Blue friends can even go as far as to lead other players into traps prearranged for the purpose.

Sorry but that last sentence sounds like life in the middle ages... you got duped into a trap. Sorry. You are dead and all your stuff is gone. We have to give them some sort of DECENT option to get back to PKing or they won't play and you have WoW/Trammel/EQ/Whatevercarebeargame...

They are dead. They are forced to macro or sit around or whatever for hours. Isn't it 8 hours per kill? Is tht the number? Or was it 40? Or just flat 40? If it is 8 hours per kill... that is DAYS if they have 20+ kills...

"They are dead. They are forced to macro or sit around or whatever for hours."
And they can do it in their sleep. While they PK some more with another character, if they have another account. Or split the difference.

It's not a punishment. It didn't stop them before. Although it did slow it down somewhat, but not nearly enough.

 

[Kotu Farland]

Ghosting off counts is perceived as no punishment by the victims. It was back then, and it will be again.

This is just silly.

Not playing Ultima Online for 8 hours PER KILL isnt punishment?

NOT PLAYING THE GAME isnt a punishment?
You have to be actively logged in and unable to PLAY THE GAME AT ALL to remove murder counts. That isnt a punishment?

Who the hell wants a "risk vs. reward" system? That's all risk for the non-PKers, and all reward for the PKers.

Obviously, the PKers want it.

Excuse me?

I guess losing 8 hours of gameplay per kill is not a risk at all.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Is it any shock this group of trammel players are opposed to the very idea of PKing?

If anyone here was actually interested in a true risk vs reward system none of you would be playing production shards.

I take it you haven't bothered to read anything posted before you jumped in?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I guess losing 8 hours of gameplay per kill is not a risk at all.

Oh come on man...most of us here either played reds back in the day, or knew someone that did.

Everybody knows you can just macro while you sleep to burn off counts. rolleyes:

Despite what you think, some of us were around back then.

 

[Kotu Farland]

I take it you haven't bothered to read anything posted before you jumped in?

I have? I guess if I dissagree with you I must not be reading the threads !

Do you deny that the majority of the posters actively play production shards?

Oh come on man...most of us here either played reds back in the day, or knew someone that did.

Everybody knows you can just macro while you sleep to burn off counts. rolleyes:

Despite what you think, some of us were around back then.

AFK macroing can result in account termination.

Reguardless does this change the fact you cannot use your account at all for 8 hours per count? ?!?!?

Who ever said no one was around back then? All I said was if somone still plays now they obviously have no interest in Risk vs Reward as they have played for 7 years + on trammel servers.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

PK dies. Has 20 kills.

He loses stat/skills instantly.

Yes.

He chooses to just have friend res. He loses more stats/skills instantly.

No.

Now he can 'play' the game(or macro or dungeon crawl or duel with people) to get the stats/skills back. Is this part correct?

Once he takes stat loss he can get his skills and stats back up the same way anyone else can. If he chooses to macro unattended (UM)...he could get banned. Something I don't think a lot of ex-players understand is that UMing is against the rules now. You can be banned from the game for doing it. (Not like it is heavily enforced...but it can happen)

Is 'exile' it's own dungeon?

No.

All red?

No.

Is there a bank?

No.

They are essentially forced into dungeon crawling to run through their murder count?

Yes...but they can PK freely while doing it.

Is that what I understand?

I'd say apparently not.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ghosting off counts is perceived as no punishment by the victims. It was back then, and it will be again.

If we want a "classic based" shard to keep players, other than heavy PvPers, we need two things.
A) A punishment strong enough to inhibit rampant PKing.
B) A punishment that the other players, the victims, see as a true punishment.

That's the biggest thing I see as a drawback to ghosting off counts.

Allowing PKers to burn off counts while exiled in dungeons, to me, seems again like a no punishment system. Even less so. This won't reduce PKing. What it will do is give reds a free ride in the dungeons, free to abuse the system for their guildmates to loot. Blue friends can even go as far as to lead other players into traps prearranged for the purpose.

Sorry but that last sentence sounds like life in the middle ages... you got duped into a trap. Sorry. You are dead and all your stuff is gone. We have to give them some sort of DECENT option to get back to PKing or they won't play and you have WoW/Trammel/EQ/Whatevercarebeargame...

They are dead. They are forced to macro or sit around or whatever for hours. Isn't it 8 hours per kill? Is tht the number? Or was it 40? Or just flat 40? If it is 8 hours per kill... that is DAYS if they have 20+ kills...

"They are dead. They are forced to macro or sit around or whatever for hours."
And they can do it in their sleep. While they PK some more with another character, if they have another account. Or split the difference.

It's not a punishment. It didn't stop them before. Although it did slow it down somewhat, but not nearly enough.

On top of that....
"We have to give them some sort of DECENT option to get back to PKing or they won't play and you have WoW/Trammel/EQ/Whatevercarebeargame..."

No and no. If this shard is to work, you cannot give them reasons to PK. They already have enough reasons with loot and infamy. And making it a game for them, to actually allow them to PK? What the hett? How do you expect other players to offer themselves up for that.... for them, the PKers? It's a ludicrous thing, to try to make a game of it for PKers. They kill games.

There are many players out there who would like a game that's a little more rough and tumble, more realistic. That's what UO should be after. Not PKers who can't play any other way than to grief and gank and crush. They kill games. But I have a feeling that most of them would adjust to a true justice system. And I know that there's roleplayers out there who'd play evil, with a price to pay to justice, just for the fun of it.

 

[HD2300]

This thread is not for the discussion of trammel anything, I don't mean to sound hostile but this is not the thread for anything trammel/insurance/supershard etc.
We are promoting/discussing a T2A era classic shard, if you wish to discuss those things why not campaign for them in a new thread?

I just don't like the thread being disrupted by things the majority of players looking for classic T2A era do not want to see. Believe me if the devs held a gun to my head and said plain and simple will you accept T2A at launch I would say sure despite my feelings on how it would go. I would rather see it launch as it was and die months later then to see aos/trammel/insurance anywhere near it.

This thread is a campaign for a classic shard. Statements like "I just want to show Trammelites that UO can survive without Trammel" or whatever and "I would rather see it ... die months later" dont help in showing that this is the best option for EA to take at this time.

I'm just saying that if a Classic shard gets developed, also show non-PvPers some love and make a consentual only PvP Classic shard, and at the same time also make some PvP only and PvM only supershards.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

If that is the goal, then I throw my hat in the ring with all those saying pure T2A...and I agree that the last publish before 16 is the best to go with.

Weren't factions in by that point? that is a huge no no, for one it killed the perfect faction system we had with O v C, and two they still haven't figured factions out yet

I know nitpick and all but the majority of pvp I did and my fondest memories came from my Order/Chaos time in Visolara or better known to our enemies as just =V=

There were some awesome Order/Chaos guilds back then on Atlantic though, GmX, PKs with clumsy spears, Mary Poppins and her crew, I can't recall if the pluggers had a O/C chapter or not, Evil Bastages were a good fight, anyways I think I've lost about as many memories as I have kept.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

hmph... I just went to bed and now there is a whole page to read ?!

The trolls are VERY intent on derailing this thread, old timer trolls have much experience but are very much obvious.

I only slept 6 hours ! It gives me a warm feeling inside to be completely ignored again, I know I'm on the right track.

Namase !

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I have? I guess if I dissagree with you I must not be reading the threads !

You must not have ever read anything I ever posted to accuse me of being a Trammie...or wanting no risk vs. reward...or anything of the kind.

Don't get all hostile with me for responding to you when you throw out genaralities that don't apply.


If you "disagree" with me, then tell me what it is you disagree with instead of just jumping in the thread and beating your chest like a giant gorilla.

Tell which of these you disagree with:

- I want a Classic Shard based on T2A
- I want there to be no Trammel, no PvP Switch, and no separatation of the population.
- I want there to be no AoS
- I want there to be no insurance
- I want the shard to succeed and last beyond 3 months

These are basically the halmarks of my position. Anything else is all details to me.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

This thread is a campaign for a classic shard. Statements like "I just want to show Trammelites that UO can survive without Trammel" or whatever and "I would rather see it ... die months later" dont help in showing that this is the best option for EA to take at this time.

The devs and everyone else outside of our prefered playstyle understand how we view trammel, it's not always pretty but believe me if they build it the shard will be well populated regardless of small differences.

I've also said alongside my opinion of T2A at launch, I always leave room to be shown that I am wrong, I'm no prophet I speculate just as much as everyone else.

I'm just saying that if a Classic shard gets developed, also show non-PvPers some love and make a consentual only PvP Classic shard, and at the same time also make some PvP only and PvM only supershards.

I have no problem with it if the first shard shows success, why do I care if they make a renaissance shard where there is nothing post AOS, I'm just making it clear that this thread is for a very specific subset.

But you really only need two shards total, one like the shard we are talking about, and one renaissance, test is already pretty much pvp isn't it? you set your skills where you want them and get whatever gear you want.

And the trammel shard would by it's nature very likely be pvm only, obviously pvp players aren't going to flock to a tram shard.

We are beyond the "what is classic" question and now we are just amusing ourselves by bickering back and forth while we await word from one of the red gods above.

 

[Kotu Farland]

You must not have ever read anything I ever posted to accuse me of being a Trammie...or wanting no risk vs. reward...or anything of the kind.

Excuse me? You are the one clearly not reading the posts.

I never once said Morgana LeFay is a trammie.

I said anyone who still plays production shards have been playing in trammel for 7 years minimum.
I never once mentioned your name in any such context yet you go out of your way making a post as if I directed this accusation at you and you alone. rolleyes:

Dont go twisting my words around.

Morgana if you cannot be bothered to read why do you keep posting in this thread?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Weren't factions in by that point? that is a huge no no, for one it killed the perfect faction system we had with O v C, and two they still haven't figured factions out yet

I know nitpick and all but the majority of pvp I did and my fondest memories came from my Order/Chaos time in Visolara or better known to our enemies as just =V=

There were some awesome Order/Chaos guilds back then on Atlantic though, GmX, PKs with clumsy spears, Mary Poppins and her crew, I can't recall if the pluggers had a O/C chapter or not, Evil Bastages were a good fight, anyways I think I've lost about as many memories as I have kept.

I'd have to look at the patch notes.

The main point is...NO PUB 16!!! I see some asking for T2A at its launch...but there were many bug fixes and little features (like potion kegs for example) that probably need to be considered.

For the record...Factions = H#%& No! Order/Chaos FTW!

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Morgana if you cannot be bothered to read why do you keep posting in this thread?

You have yet to answer my questions. You said that you "disagreed" with me...and I am asking exactly what it is you are "disagreeing" with me about?

Things I want:

The Second Age era w/ necessary bug and glitch fixes
-Britannia and the Lost Lands
-Stat loss and long term murder counts for reds (stat loss on death)
-T2A Item system (Vanq/Ruin magic weapons, Invul/hardening magic armor, magic wands staves, jewelery, boots, capes, etc.)
-T2A skill and stat caps (700.0 skill point pool, 225 stat point pool)
-T2A magic system
-Stat and skill controls (IE ability to set skills/stats to raise, lower and lock)
-Chaos and Order Guilds with proper fixes (lord/lady requisites removed)
-Guild Stones
-more Stackable items (IE Potions)
-**Crafting Upgrades (See below)
-T2A housing and rule sets
-Server Birth Rares

**Crafting upgrades are as follows:

-Tailors will be able to make bone armor as well as repair it along with leather armor

-Bow crafters will be able to repair bows

-Carpenters will be able to craft all staff weapons as well as clubs and repair them along with wooden shields

-potential addition of Ilshenar later on.


-No runic tools
-No BoDs
-No character transfers, to or from classic server(s)
-No ethereal mounts
-No power scrolls
-No AOS content, period
-No Trammel
-No Malas
-No Tokuno
-No Mondain's Legacy Content
-No Stygian Abyss Content
-No ELVES
-No Gargoyles
-No control slots for tamers or mages (still under discussion it will either be bonding with slots or unlimited slots)
-No repair contracts
-No bless deeds or blessed items
-No factions
-No custom housing
-Possible addition of a few extra mechanisms to prevent people from AKF macroing off murder counts.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I'm just saying that if a Classic shard gets developed, also show non-PvPers some love and make a consentual only PvP Classic shard

There are 25 shards running right now that show you all the "love" you need. Why make yet another Trammel shard? There is nothing Classic about Trammel.

 

[Kotu Farland]

For the second time Morgana, Why are you posting if you do not bother to read the thread?

You said that you "disagreed" with me...and I am asking exactly what it is you are "disagreeing" with me about?

Oh come on man...most of us here either played reds back in the day, or knew someone that did.

Everybody knows you can just macro while you sleep to burn off counts. rolleyes:

Despite what you think, some of us were around back then.

AFK macroing can result in account termination.

Reguardless does this change the fact you cannot use your account at all for 8 hours per count? ?!?!?

You could have easily figured this out yourself if you bothered to read at all.

Why dont you add to the discussion instead of trolling anyone who disagrees with you?

 

[dinanm3atl]

Ghosting off counts is perceived as no punishment by the victims. It was back then, and it will be again.

If we want a "classic based" shard to keep players, other than heavy PvPers, we need two things.
A) A punishment strong enough to inhibit rampant PKing.
B) A punishment that the other players, the victims, see as a true punishment.

That's the biggest thing I see as a drawback to ghosting off counts.

Allowing PKers to burn off counts while exiled in dungeons, to me, seems again like a no punishment system. Even less so. This won't reduce PKing. What it will do is give reds a free ride in the dungeons, free to abuse the system for their guildmates to loot. Blue friends can even go as far as to lead other players into traps prearranged for the purpose.

Sorry but that last sentence sounds like life in the middle ages... you got duped into a trap. Sorry. You are dead and all your stuff is gone. We have to give them some sort of DECENT option to get back to PKing or they won't play and you have WoW/Trammel/EQ/Whatevercarebeargame...

They are dead. They are forced to macro or sit around or whatever for hours. Isn't it 8 hours per kill? Is tht the number? Or was it 40? Or just flat 40? If it is 8 hours per kill... that is DAYS if they have 20+ kills...

"They are dead. They are forced to macro or sit around or whatever for hours."
And they can do it in their sleep. While they PK some more with another character, if they have another account. Or split the difference.

It's not a punishment. It didn't stop them before. Although it did slow it down somewhat, but not nearly enough.

On top of that....
"We have to give them some sort of DECENT option to get back to PKing or they won't play and you have WoW/Trammel/EQ/Whatevercarebeargame..."

No and no. If this shard is to work, you cannot give them reasons to PK. They already have enough reasons with loot and infamy. And making it a game for them, to actually allow them to PK? What the hett? How do you expect other players to offer themselves up for that.... for them, the PKers? It's a ludicrous thing, to try to make a game of it for PKers. They kill games.

There are many players out there who would like a game that's a little more rough and tumble, more realistic. That's what UO should be after. Not PKers who can't play any other way than to grief and gank and crush. They kill games. But I have a feeling that most of them would adjust to a true justice system. And I know that there's roleplayers out there who'd play evil, with a price to pay to justice, just for the fun of it.

Ohhhh boohoohoo they 'killed' the game. roflmao

Maybe you were not very good and constantly got PK'd. I rarely died. I died more from trying to melee dragons or killing poison elements than I did from actually getting killed by another player. On Atlantic while I played for almost a decade... I saw way more blues at the bank, way more blues in dungeons, way more blues in PvP battles(factions/chaos/order/etc) than I saw this rabid group of reds running around just raping/pillaging/etc everyone... sorry that my experience.

Also you are not understanding what I am saying. "Hey classic UO fans. We have this new shard. It is exactly as you loved it... BUT if you want to PK here is this list of stuff we have put in place specifically for you(none of them positive). Oh yah and bowyer can repair bows and carpenters can make clubs. Have fun!"

That will really attract all the old players...

PK dies. Has 20 kills.

He loses stat/skills instantly.

Yes.

He chooses to just have friend res. He loses more stats/skills instantly.

No.

Now he can 'play' the game(or macro or dungeon crawl or duel with people) to get the stats/skills back. Is this part correct?

Once he takes stat loss he can get his skills and stats back up the same way anyone else can. If he chooses to macro unattended (UM)...he could get banned. Something I don't think a lot of ex-players understand is that UMing is against the rules now. You can be banned from the game for doing it. (Not like it is heavily enforced...but it can happen)

Is 'exile' it's own dungeon?

No.

All red?

No.

Is there a bank?

No.

They are essentially forced into dungeon crawling to run through their murder count?

Yes...but they can PK freely while doing it.

Is that what I understand?

I'd say apparently not.

Ok here is my problem and maybe you can reply so we can have a continued discussion. So they get their stat lose. Now they can res and play the game. I assume they will macro and get their stuff back via 'sparring'. I doubt they will be dungeon crawling with the blues. So it sort of forces them to macro it off... or sit there for 200 hours at their PC... that means they will die. And quit. That isn't a solution.

I don't understand exile. They are 'stuck' in a dungeon with no way to get supplies outside of PKing(good luck with no supplies) OR killing mobs(good luck... again. No supplies). I don't understand the exile. It sounds like a perfect place for reverse griefing... hey guys let's go kill stat lose reds in Wrong... they have no weapons, no regs and nothing. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me but maybe I am not understanding it completely.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ohhhh boohoohoo they 'killed' the game. roflmao

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I don't understand exile. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me but maybe I am not understanding it completely.

Not like it matters much. It is starting to become very obvious that returning PKs want 'Easy Mode' and are not going to accept anything beyond the penalties that were originally in the game...and they will whine incessantaly about those as well.

But...for like the 5th time...here goes:

Stat Loss Occurs on Death:

After 5 murder counts, you go red. If you die when you are red, you suffer stat lose when you die not when you rez.

Stat loss has no timer it is permanent that means...it lasts until you get your skills and stats back up through ordinary means.

Murder Counts Can Only Be Burned Off While Alive and in a Dungeon:

You do not have to choose Exile for your counts to come off...but you have to be in a dungeon...ANY dungeon. This prevents AKF macroing, UMing, or whatever you want to call it. This action (UMing) is against the rules anyway...even though it is not very well enforced (see this line Kotu Farland)

Exile:

Instead of going around dungeons trying to burn off counts, and risking stat loss, the murderer can choose exile. This is not mandatory.

The murderer can choose this at any time, as long as he or she has murder counts. You cannot go into Exile if you have no counts. The murderer does this by simply saying "I wish to enter Exile". A menu appears. A list of a few dungeons appears. (for example...Khaldun, Fire, Deceit, Ice, and Hythloth. It does not have to be those exact dungeons...THIS IS ONLY AN EXMAPLE.)

Once the murderer choose a dungeon, he or she is transported there. They cannot leave this dungeon unless they say "I wish to leave Exile".

While they are in exile (in the dungeon they chose) they are free to PK anyone, red or blue...and they will not receive murder counts.

While they are in exile (in the dungeon they chose) they will not suffer stat loss if they die.

There are no banks in dungeons, never have been (that I know about), never should be.

When murderers die in exile (in the dungeon they chose), they can be looted. To get re-equip, they have 2 choices:

1- Remain in exile, and kill monsters or players, or borrow/steal from other players.

2- Leave exile by saying "I wish to leave exile".

When the murderer leaves exile, they are no longer burning off counts. If they are killed outside of exile, they suffer stat loss.

They can then go to Buc's Den, or their house, or wherever they choose, and do whatever they want. But if they die, and they still have counts, they suffer stat loss on death. (not on rez)

Why bother with exile?

-It gives reds something to do while burning off counts.
-You can actually play the game while you are buring off counts instead of UMing (macroing) WITHOUT STAT LOSS. You can even PK PEOPLE while you burn off your counts.

What does this do to prevent PKing?
- Nothing. It just makes it so that reds are not UMing off counts. It does not prevent anyone from PKing anyone else.

What benefit does this offer non-PKs?
- It removes some PKers from the general population, except in certain dungeons.
- It creates more advanced dungeons because they will be literally FULL of reds.

Both sides...take a moment and consider what I am proposing here...

- It does not add any more penalties to PKs...it just makes it a little more interesting, and a little more difficult to get rid of murder counts. It will NOT stop you, if you are a PK, from PKing anyone anywhere besides towns.

- If you are a non-PK, it does not save you from being PKed, but it does help to centalize PKs into certain areas that you can avoid. If you are a miner, for example...it would not be a good plan to mine in an exile dungeon!! (its not a good idea to mine in a freakin' dungeon and then complain about dying anyway!!)

This proposal actually helps both sides, but only a little. It hurts both sides, a little. That's what a COMPROMISE is.

I hope I have been more clear this time. I will answer questions, but I am not posting all of this again (aren't you all glad?? )

 

[Ray_]

Just here to say again that the opinion of current subscribers should be pretty much ignored by EA.

EA wants old subscribers to return, not current ones to shift to a new shard. Old subscribers are the people that quit when Trammel and AOS came - mostly PvP/PK types. Look at freeshards. The biggest ones are invariably PvP/PK friendly. Their playerbase consists mostly of ex-subscribers. 2+2.

Sorry guys, but your opinions don't matter. You're already paying EA every month and if you've put up with these changes for this long, you'll probably keep paying.

Right now, my $10/month (or is it $15 now?) is more valuable than yours.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

We are beyond the "what is classic" question and now we are just amusing ourselves by bickering back and forth while we await word from one of the red gods above.

We are not bickering. We are discussing unimportant issues in a non-constructive heated manner. I dare you to prove me wrong!

All joking aside, I think the penalty's for PKing suggested within this thread are good, but looking at the points Antonio and Kavian are trying to make I wonder if just having stat loss would be enough? We all know what we'll be getting into and most of us have the experience to deal with it effectively. I know I rarely got pk'd once I got used to the game, and after I became an anti I never got PK'd (because it was consensual pvp). The only thing I worry about is the players who may try out the shard who've never played in a non-con environment, or some of the wow and other mmo players who have only had consensual pvp to deal with.

I know the definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, but I can't help but wonder with the caliber of player that would initially populate a classic shard maybe the system would work.

I know, I do a lot of waffling, but there are some convincing arguments in this thread, even if some of them do seem to want basically no punishment for PKing.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Just here to say again that the opinion of current subscribers should be pretty much ignored by EA.

Really? I hope for your sake that they don't ignore the opinions of people like me...because I pretty much want the same things you want...just with some minor changes.

So if they ignore me, that means...No Classic Shard?

Good plan. rolleyes:

 

[Kotu Farland]

I seem to notice Morgana doesn't want to reply to my post.

Why ask me to clarify my position if you have no interest in replying? rolleyes:

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Just here to say again that the opinion of current subscribers should be pretty much ignored by EA.

Troll elsewhere please, you are making yourself look bad.

EA wants old subscribers to return, not current ones to shift to a new shard. Old subscribers are the people that quit when Trammel and AOS came - mostly PvP/PK types. Look at freeshards. The biggest ones are invariably PvP/PK friendly. Their playerbase consists mostly of ex-subscribers. 2+2.

It's a good thing most businesses don't look at these things as one way streets, you can say they only care about new subscribers however what happens if you lose subscribers you already have? not good either huh? derp derp

Again you can't assume all the freesharders are pvp'ers and you cannot base a production shard on what x free shard, by the way I have seen some complaints on some of the more popular free shards about pks being an issue as well.

Sorry guys, but your opinions don't matter. You're already paying EA every month and if you've put up with these changes for this long, you'll probably keep paying.

Right now, my $10/month (or is it $15 now?) is more valuable than yours.

Well just to be clear speaking only for me, they haven't been getting my 10 or whatever a month since ren came out, you are also assuming that established players won't try the new shard, what's to stop them from inviting their friends who have maybe left the game to come back?

If it gets implemented right there is just as much potential to draw in new subs from both sides, although I don't expect it to be so huge that it breathes new life into the game.

And your 10 a month like mine is worthless since EA isn't receiving it, even in terms of projections if you think EA would stake the success of such a venture on hardcore pvp'ers you obviously haven't been paying attention to what's happened over the years.

You can talk about the hundreds of hypothetical people you would bring back with you, but until they show up with their wallets open it's a moot point, as any of us could make an argument to the contrary that we know lots of people who would return if the game was more balanced.