Just one of the many instances of severe misinformation in this thread.
*shakes head*
-
Hail Guest! We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
-
Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
-
Hail Guest!, Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
-
Hail Guest! Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!
Classic shard.
- Thread starter Unsatisfied
- Start date
- Watchers 17
- Status
*shakes head*
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
"Nightmare"?
Quite the opposite in fact. If I had played on a shard that didn't have PKs, I would have probably gotten bored and quit the game long before UO:R.
It was the need for guilds like mine that drove us. We loved fighting reds, and their blue friends. But we didn't do it because we wanted to PvP, we did it to help the community as a whole.
That is what made Ultima Online more than just a game. The fact that there was true, necessary, human interaction. It was the "Heroes and Villains" aspect that really grabbed my interest. Since that part of the game has ceased to exist, I have always felt that the game was nothing more than a shell of its former self. Sure, for the first few months, I enjoyed Trammel. I got to see places I had never seen in the game. I got to go places that I would never go alone, and pretty soon after Trammel, I looked around and was rich as a player...but that just meant I got extremely bored with the game. So I started PvPing in Fel...but that wasn't (and still isn't) the same. Sure, you can show up at Yew gate, and pick a fight with some reds, but in the end, what was accomplished...especially now.
When I talk about the old days, and how "bad" the PK problem was, I am only talking about volume of PKs...sheer numbers...not my experience. I see people asking for a consequence-free shard here...and to me, I say BRING IT ON! But I understand that I have to think outside of myself, and consider what is right for the shard.
This was something that too few did the first time around...and we ended up with Trammel.
If a Classic Shard is just going to end up with Trammel...then I want no part of it.
Longest Journey, you might be interested in reading some of my stories...maybe not...but there is a lot in there that is metaphorical where the split between Fel and Tram are concerned. A lot of people have read them, and considered them to just be poorly written fan fiction, but they didn't read them closely enough, because the entire story arc, starting from the first one...through the latest, are an allegory for what has happened to UO as a whole.
I generally don't like to disclose what goes on this f***ed up brain of mine very often, but I can tell that you are someone that 'get's it'.
Have a look at them if you feel like wasting a few hours of your life
The Tale of Mr. Clean
http://www.protectorsofvirtue.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9
(I only wrote the last half of this one...and I owe it to Clean that he got me started writing these)
Wraith, Love, and Redemption
http://www.protectorsofvirtue.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10
This One Time, at Band Camp...Tales by Agibail LeFay
http://www.protectorsofvirtue.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11
The Fortress of Fear
http://www.protectorsofvirtue.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12
A Dark Secret
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=151592
(this one is a work in progress that I have neglected for far too long)
Anyway, if you want, check them out...the first few contain a great deal of memories and stories from the 'old classic days'.
They have all been posted on Stratics in the Atlantic forum, but it's too much trouble to go and dig up the old ones, so I just linked to my site.
S
SoulStealer A.O
Guest
Some people haven't really played T2A here for a very long time. I have recently been playing a T2A era accurate freeshard and there are a lot of things that I'd like to point out that I like and dislike about the area.
First I'll start with the reason I love T2A era UO. ( Most if not all of these have been covered by Morg and others previously in this thread)
- 7x Skill Set and 225 Stat Set
- No Artifacts, No Item attributes
- No Trammel
- Casting timers are decent, I mean a lot of players who have played other freeshards disagree but once you are use to it, it's pretty fun.
- Balanced PvP
- Seeing people in dungeons and other places in the game.
- Crafting System
- Order / Chaos / Guildwar system
- True Sandbox feel, where you can do anything and be anything you want without any restrictions.
So pretty much, like everyone else, I like pre uo:r style UO for the same reasons. Now I would like to get into the things I see wrong with the system and how due to todays gamers/expectations and skill some things may need to be considered to be changed for the greater good. I mean, if people will play and the shard has a playerbase it will be fun either way, but here it goes.
Dislikes.
#1) How easy it is to make a character - This, I'm hoping with limited player accounts per person and illegal unattended macroing gets toned down. This isn't a real issue more just a personal thing I don't like about what I have seen and maybe wont even be true on an EA server.
#2) Easy Cash / Mounts / Not enough Blues in dungeons - It's far too easy to farm money for a few reasons. One, higher end mobs drop too much gold in era accurate T2A. Due to todays internet connection speeds, pcs and mounts you can literatley fly around the game. I can run through level 1 destard, group up drakes and dragons, ev them down without ever getting hit and make 25kish an hour. That includes when I have to recall or fight off pks. If you were to farm like this for 2-3hrs a day a few nights a week for a month you would never really need to go into a dungeon for a few months. This means there are less blues inside the dungeons, and makes pks have an easier time and the game feel more empty overall.
#3) T2A. Now don't get me wrong, I loved The Lost Lands but enless you have a decent playerbase, the game is just too empty with any added lands over the origional ones. I'm sure EA will have a much higher server pop so maybe this wont be an issue.
#4) PK Rep system. This is way too easy to exploit as we all know. Macroing off counts, blue pks, the works. Which is why I suggested the noto system above.
Anyways, these are just some personal things I wanted to bring up for discussion.
First I'll start with the reason I love T2A era UO. ( Most if not all of these have been covered by Morg and others previously in this thread)
- 7x Skill Set and 225 Stat Set
- No Artifacts, No Item attributes
- No Trammel
- Casting timers are decent, I mean a lot of players who have played other freeshards disagree but once you are use to it, it's pretty fun.
- Balanced PvP
- Seeing people in dungeons and other places in the game.
- Crafting System
- Order / Chaos / Guildwar system
- True Sandbox feel, where you can do anything and be anything you want without any restrictions.
So pretty much, like everyone else, I like pre uo:r style UO for the same reasons. Now I would like to get into the things I see wrong with the system and how due to todays gamers/expectations and skill some things may need to be considered to be changed for the greater good. I mean, if people will play and the shard has a playerbase it will be fun either way, but here it goes.
Dislikes.
#1) How easy it is to make a character - This, I'm hoping with limited player accounts per person and illegal unattended macroing gets toned down. This isn't a real issue more just a personal thing I don't like about what I have seen and maybe wont even be true on an EA server.
#2) Easy Cash / Mounts / Not enough Blues in dungeons - It's far too easy to farm money for a few reasons. One, higher end mobs drop too much gold in era accurate T2A. Due to todays internet connection speeds, pcs and mounts you can literatley fly around the game. I can run through level 1 destard, group up drakes and dragons, ev them down without ever getting hit and make 25kish an hour. That includes when I have to recall or fight off pks. If you were to farm like this for 2-3hrs a day a few nights a week for a month you would never really need to go into a dungeon for a few months. This means there are less blues inside the dungeons, and makes pks have an easier time and the game feel more empty overall.
#3) T2A. Now don't get me wrong, I loved The Lost Lands but enless you have a decent playerbase, the game is just too empty with any added lands over the origional ones. I'm sure EA will have a much higher server pop so maybe this wont be an issue.
#4) PK Rep system. This is way too easy to exploit as we all know. Macroing off counts, blue pks, the works. Which is why I suggested the noto system above.
Anyways, these are just some personal things I wanted to bring up for discussion.
R
Ray_
Guest
You have it stuck in your head that people are either PKs or they are crafters/tamers/PvMers. That's completely wrong.
Most PKs that I knew were also tamers, crafters, bards, O/C PvPers, etc, etc, etc.
We also recognize that the game gets really stale without PKs. Most of these suggestions will completely eliminate PKing aside from trash dexers and blue PKs. You guys are in for a world of grief if open PvP is in but PKs are penalized into nothing. YOU'RE the one that's going to end up taking counts and suffering the penalties.
Uhh, what? Statloss wasn't changed during UO:R until pub 16, and even then it was only removed if you died in a dungeon or t2a. Dying in the mainland STILL meant you were subjected to statloss.
Between long term counts being enacted in mid-'99 and pub16, there weren't many PKs at all.
Read for yourself about statloss after UO:R: http://update.uo.com/design_409.html
I do fully expect this part to be ignored, of course, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
Risk-free? Do you not realize that statloss is pretty much perma-death?
No challenge? This shard would be STACKED with PvPers, and PvMers have just as much opportunity to get good at the game as anyone else does.
Consequences? Like perma-death? Or like having a character useless for most in-game activities? Or only being able to bank at one place - a place that EVERYONE knows the location of and is camped almost 24/7? Or being completely screwed if you dare try to use your red without having a mule? How about being kicked out of the thieves guild if you PK even ONCE? Maybe you don't think they're enough, but there ARE consequences.
There are plenty of ex-players that PvPed AND crafted AND PvMed AND tamed AND roleplayed AND etc. Those people are aware of the risk inherent in UO and like it. Personally, I hardly EVER PKd between t2a and pub16. I played a blue O/C guild wars mage as my main, with a blue dexer that did the same as my 2nd, then a dungeon looter as a third, and finally a 7x crafting mule. 5th slot was sometimes a PK and sometimes other stuff.
Thing is, on those 4 other characters, I *loved* to see an unknown red popup on incoming names. Made otherwise boring activities exciting.
Make no mistake, I consider myself a PvPer much more than a PK. PKing was just another way to PvP. Order/chaos, dueling, guild wars, blue vs red. Being red just means a hell of a lot more action. Same goes for most of my old UO friends, and I knew a ton of people.
Killing newbs at the orc fort or miners at north Brit mines just isn't worth it. They don't have any loot, and I'm exposing myself to dropped connection or a surprise gank for very little possible gain. No, the best PKing is in Covetous 4 or Destard or Ice. Not only is there more potential loot, but there's a better fight in it. Doesn't really matter most of the time though, because not everyone is a braindead ****** and knows to hit recall when a red name comes up on incoming names.
Honestly? There's no risk in PvM. UO mobs are dumb and easy. Always have been, always will be. YOU'RE the one playing around with no risk and tons of reward if there's no PKs around. Hell, just look at UO post-Trammel and how quickly and thoroughly the economy went to hell in a handbasket (or bag of sending. another great idea, haha). That's what happens when you can farm with your 2 dragons for hours on end with the only risk being 10 minutes of time since you can't even lose the loot on your corpse if you get disconnected.
Gold is going for $1 per million gp now? Wow. You all know the reason. Eliminating PKs (which is exactly what some of these ideas would do) will just cause this shard's economy to spiral out of control like the rest of UO.
Um, when a red kills someone they dont delete whatever gold they loot, thus it stays in the game and has no effect on the economy what so ever.
But the Economy is in the crapper due to a lot of major dupes since AOS, Bags of sending, Trammel and no reliable gold sinks.
I have been in favor of statloss but more in the Faction direction, Like -20% stats/skills for 20 minutes game time. And to prevent what we see in Factions today where the enemy gos into stat, logs out then In with a back up character, would be to not allow another character to log in while a Character is in stat on their account. It would force those who abuse the system to either wait out their time or buy a 2nd account.
R
Ray_
Guest
The point is that there's much LESS gold entering the system because you can't farm for hours uninterrupted and the gold that DOES enter the system is spread much thinner.
I prefer to stick with the classic system, but I'd be open to something in this direction. It's more balanced with what the victim suffers.
The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime with classic statloss. Killing 5 people means your 7x character is now 7x 92-94ish. How much time and money does it take to GM just magery and resist from 92? Much, much, much more than the combined time and money lost by those 5 players.
Being PKd is a temporary inconvenience. Suffering statloss is major PERMANENT damage to someone's character.
R
Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
The punishment should fit the "crime". You've killed five players, you've ruined their enjoyment of the game. Your enjoyment should thus be ruined also. The reason stat loss and other disincentives were implemented in the first place was to try and stem the PKing. The community at large tried themselves to stop the PKing via creating Anti-PK guilds, but there were never enough players who were truly interested enough in PvP to brave the disproportionate odds. Thus we ended up with trammel and fel because of a small percentage of the total subscriber base to this game who couldn't exercise some impulse control and take advantage of the consensual pvp outlets, weather it be guild wars, O/C or even Factions later on.
I mean honestly, if all the PK's were looking for was some innocent PvP fun, why didn't they utilize these systems more? Yeah those who played PK's will reminisce like me about the anti-pk's chasing them through the dungeons, or some of the fights we'd have at the Cove orc fort etc... but in the end PK's just did what they did because they knew that most of the time their target was not going to put up much of a fight and they were almost assured victory and easy loot.
Lastly, if Stat Loss was such a hard punishment, why were there many pk's up until UO:R? For the undedicated PK, Statloss just meant throw away characters, which didn't happen much until the implementation of Power Hour I know, but it did happen. Also if you had a mule character or a good guild magery and resist didn't take weeks and weeks and weeks to get back up to 100 like the tone of your post suggests. You could gain the last 10 points of magery in about 8-10 hours of playtime if you were training with your guildies. Yeah that puts you out of the hunt for a day or two, but was that really a big thing?
You complain about the cost, yeah buying regs sucked. That's why you'd have a mule character. Go hit some mountains and break big rocks into little rocks. Chop some wood, there were always people looking to buy crafting materiel's and you could easily pay for the regs you needed with just a few hours of dedicated gathering....that is if some wandering PK's didn't come around and kill you and take that hard earned work from you.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Don't come to me preaching about how Trammel ruined UO. I have been saying that since before it was put it in!!!
S
SoulStealer A.O
Guest
Having played a Dread and both a statloss PK I must say I agree. In todays UO especially there needs to be consaquences. If PvP is what you're after, you will find lots in O/C and guildwars. If you wanna go the PK route, do the crime do the time. A server with all wolves starts off great, but ends like **** and I think most of us want to see this thing last if it gets off the ground. For that reason, I know I'll be playing an anti-pk this time around.
E
eekamouse
Guest
This thread is either scaring the devs away from a Classic Shard completely, or they are planning inviting all of you to a workshop in person
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Either works for me...This thread is either scaring the devs away from a Classic Shard completely, or they are planning inviting all of you to a workshop in person
...btw, how did that runic hammer work out? Did you dupe it?
Of course it makes sense, may I remind you that I was one of the best pvpers on atlantic, I played mage and warrior and excelled in it. I even came 4th place I think in the biggest AMT tournaments. Of course we did not use pots rofl. But I did it all including order chaos when losing your title meant losing your shield (very nice idea btw) oh yeah lots of pots, with timers it was very nice too. And factions... that was sweet ! Lots of pots... diarhea quantity of pots. Hahah !
But thats not how you say it, how can you accuse me of anything ? I cannot even really play anymore, I'm a companion. But I'd do the anti-pk yes this time around, because I learned to like stylish pks, the masculine dynamism about them, yes I'm a bit homosexual in that way. Love was in the sandbox, although some will deny it. Death was also in the sandbox for a short time, until it all culminated. Nobody should try to destroy the linearity of UO with any mind of argument, it held on its own, it was alive !
Soul brought up the works, very valid inuendo.
And people... wait a minute here. I was myself fighting as much pks as blue players in dungeons, during a long summer I owned, on my own and sometimes with Nick... big time, and few groups would challenge me. I ... I ... I and I !!! hah. So pathetic isn't it ? I'm now famous on a forum of a game, what a cute little nerd I make. Don't I ?
OK OK !!! MAYYYYBE, say if you were unlucky on a night you might get murdered (I dislike the term even pked, you don't necessarly kill the player, see what I mean?) 2-3 times, thats IF you were persistant to hang in the hot spots ; because of greed maybe ? I know I couldn't cover a territory back then, I went to the hot spots with lots of players and circled through them until I had killed the server, that was my way of protesting what was coming, I was a little hurt by some of my friends disapearance in completely illogical ways as well. Ok maybe I was hurt alot, Bismark told me to say it loud, may he rest in peace. I WAS HURT !
It wasn't THAT bad guys... but then again ; if I take my job for example, there are some people who are clients with us for 10-20 years, and they never called, life is good, waters are calm. Others...
Oh man you won't beleive those, they got everything happening to them ; all the time like they're magnetizing it... and I'm not into victim persecutor mentality to be honest it turns me off, thats why I jump a little bit when I see the amount of text this thread generates, it's sure to top google charts about UO related UlTiMa OnLiNe wuth the lil chest that opons in the beginning, reavealing the gem and you know unified perception stuff. The gem is UO, UO is the spice, the spice is the worm ; the worm is chaos in nature but conceived to challenge spirit, as it's been brightly evidenced here it was taken away, all at once. But... BUT...
This is the funniest day of my life ! You won't beleive it... I have such a good idea that would please everyone in these PK penalty matters, that I bet everyone who's even been on the internet would get goosebumps. But I can't say it, not here... I'm a companion, not anyone's servant.
Well let me tell you my friends, just all the people in this thread wether they agree or disagree, will form so tight a bond on the server, that I doubt PKs will abound, and if they risk taking the fame to narg you down and drive you over, WITHOUT CHEATS because in todays age we CAN handle a CLASSIC, UO ! CHEAP !!! Most of you should calm down, it will happen, if people use the hidden virtues and are patient and perseverant.
Well you guys can call me a liar then, before that ? I don't only recall bland stuff on this sandbox, smells, colors and odors interacted and synesthesize *sp* into me.
In old UO... being a lonely carpenter was fun as much as being part of a culture, feeling intuitively where the peace was ? Was even more fun, and even if noone will admit, love on that server, the intensity of the fight, the epicness of the moment ; and I don't mean to be nostalgic. Forgive me...
It was SO NICE. ARRRRGGGHHHHH YESSS !!!! FREEDOM !
*conditional [WITHOUT BUGS. All SERVER SIDED This Time Ea !!!!
Yeeeeeee !!!!! WE CAN DO IT !!!! EVERYONE EQUAL !
Go EA ! GO EA !!! I LOVE YOU EAAAAA !!!!
E
eekamouse
Guest
Nope burned it. I never need to get another weapon again for my sammyEither works for me...
...btw, how did that runic hammer work out? Did you dupe it?
I will probably imbue some slayers for special situations.
Nick ?
R
Ray_
Guest
Wasn't accusing you of anything, not sure where that's coming from.
And you can remind me all you want, tbh it just makes you look a little bad, bro
I'm BAD !!!! Raaaaagggghhhh !
Next level is what ?
Next level is what ?
R
Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
The Jesus looking necromancer guy is kinda freaking me out....
WTF?
You are the Eggman ?! Woah !
Welcome on stratics !!!
Welcome on stratics !!!
L
Longest Journey
Guest
Now, its statments like this that tell me you DEFINITELY played Pre-Ren.
Not necessarily. The suggestions offered are methods to make sure becoming a red is taken seriously, make players have to prepair to be one instead of just doing it on a whim. They wouldnt eliminate reds, just make it harder to be one. People will still snap and kill someone who is annoying them, or looted their kill, or are just being a general asswipe.
Well, the reason PKing went down after Reniassance is because it wasnt PKing anymore, it was all straight up PvP, red vs red and guild vs guild. Publish 16 PvP changes were pretty much pointless at that time.
Cats in 99 had its share of PKs I remember that. never really saw their numbers go down there. Atlantic and Chessapeake, from my experince, had the same number, but people will say differently......
........mostly to a degree of exaggeration.
Not really, man. Stat-loss can be recovered from, perma-death cant because its kinda......permanent. So, Stat-loss is the substantial lesser of the two evils.
Youre going to need something, some sort of extra hurdle for reds to deal with if you are going to appease the PvM crowd without completely killing the open PvP. If stat loss fits the bill, then go with it.
Yeah, there are consequences, but they want more. They want to feel like the player behind the character has been hurt or inconvenienced because they feel like the PKer killed them for personal reasons.
They want to be protected by the game, and not the edge of their own blades.
I understand this completely. My game play experience back then was pretty much like this too, though my character builds were a little different.
I dont remember there being show names of approaching players in T2A. Post Ren, yeah, but not T2A.
I actually liked it that way, with no approaching names. It kept some air of mystery as to who was coming. You didnt know if that guy walking towards you was going to attack you, ignore you, or say "Hail" then continue on their way.
Its kinda ironic, isnt it? When you were killed in a guild war and looted, it was PvP, but when you were killed and looted by a red, it was griefing. Ironic....and hypocritical. I actually remember guild wars being way more vicious than PKing. There was this one vampire RP guild who wiped the guild I was running with one night in Trinsic. The vamps camped the healer and kept killing us as we rezed. They did it to me once and I decided to just run to another town as a ghost. The other members of the guild kept trying to rez though. I quit that guild that night.
I think you might be mixing things up with T2A and Reniassance. Show names of approaching players wasnt in with The Second Age. That was definitely a post Reniassance thing.
But, yes, people knew to recall out when they clicked on someone and their name came up red. Another trick was to mine in war mode hidden and run your cursor over anyone who came along to check their color.
Well, there was some risk in trammel if you got DC'd in a dungeon. Right after trammel was put in, people would start purposely luring monsters around other players then going invis or hiding to make the monsters attack someone else. if it worked, the intended target would get overwhelmed and killed by the mobs. Sometimes the monsters would take items from the corpse of the person who got killed. The person who lured the monsters would kill them and get the item(s) the monster took from the corpse.
The rest of the time, the person who did the luring waiting around the body for it to turn to bones. After a body went to bones in Trammel, it was open, penalty free loot.
True. Trammel swung the door for gold farmers and bots wide open with a big neon welcome sign. Open PvP made bot mining and gold farming impossible because people knew what to look for in a script bot and killed them.
R
Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
You keep saying he's confusing show names as not being in during t2a but there was an all names macro, it would pop every name up on screen. I usually had that keybound to ` in order to quickly have situational awareness on who just came on screen with me.
L
Longest Journey
Guest
I never used that macro and I admit I didnt even know about it. I only knew of Ctrl-Q to repeat what I just typed, Ctrl-C to enter/exit war mode, and my custom macros I set up for weapon swaping, hiding and for spell casting on my mages.... oh and Ctrl-B to bow and Ctrl-S to salute.
Anyway, I liked not knowing who was coming towards me.....but it does explain how enemies were able to track me when I was trying to escape..... I always thought they were using some sort of cheat.
I dont like artifical stuff like that which lets you know who's coming. I liked having to check manually when they entered my screen. Kept things interesting. The rush that came when someone would ride up on a horse, hitting my hiding macro, clicking on them to see the color of their name, ambushing them if they were red or grey, staying hidden if they were blue.....good times.
Having something that shows you the color of who is coming....that sounds too much like a cheap trick to me. Also makes it easy for reds to track people. Something like that shouldnt be on the classic servers.
I've been seeing this a lot - and it isn't exactly true. Even YOU have admitted that Trammel was a RE-action, and not the initial action. Granted, there is the rightfully debatable question as to if it was an over-reaction, but...
It wasn't Trammel that ruined UO - it was the idiots that caused EA/Origin to create Trammel that ruined UO. Want an example of those kinds of people?
Just look through this thread, and see who's calling people liars. Or noobs. Or Trammies. Or carebears. Or stupid... that's my personal favorite - you don't agree with some in this thread, you obviously weren't even there, so you must be a stupid noob liar.... your thoughts, memories, recollections, none of it means a damned thing to some of these people. They remember better than you do...
The worst enemy to a classic server of any type from EA are some of the people in this thread. They are just living proof of any gripe anyone ever had about UO pre-Tram.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Okay...let me revise my position a bit.
Trammel didn't ruin UO. It ruined UO for me. It was the result of players that couldn't understand that you can only fish so many fish out of a pond. It's land locked. Unless someone is restocking the pond, eventually there are not enough fish to repopulate the pond...so you end up with an empty pond. (yes I know there would be micro-organisms and insects and such...)
But the point is, Trammel was the wrong solution to a valid problem. There are a number of players that will come here and tell you that there was no problem...and in some cases, that could have been their perception...but in most cases there was no problem for them, because they were the problem.
Trammel was a quick fix. There were other ways that should have been explored. So when I say "Trammel ruined UO" it actually did not cause the game to suffer from a subscription standpoint...but the damage that it did in the long run was far greater than most people realize.
Imagine if you will a game in which you could be PK'ed, but the consequences for that would be such that it would make it an undesirable behavior to anyone besides the hardcore RP'ers and those that want a tremendously challenging game experience.
A game like that would never have to become so item based to keep people entertained. The world would be more exciting because of the added challenge, but the risks would not outweigh the rewards.
That is the magical balance that needed to be found. And I know, some people will say..."well, they HAD to add Trammel because they were losing subscriptions to EQ". This is true...but I ask, why did they wait so long to address the issue? If they had started in 1998-1999, and followed through, they could have balanced the PK vs. victim aspect of the game WITHOUT Trammel before May 4, 2000. I am confident of that.
Trammel didn't ruin UO. It ruined UO for me. It was the result of players that couldn't understand that you can only fish so many fish out of a pond. It's land locked. Unless someone is restocking the pond, eventually there are not enough fish to repopulate the pond...so you end up with an empty pond. (yes I know there would be micro-organisms and insects and such...)
But the point is, Trammel was the wrong solution to a valid problem. There are a number of players that will come here and tell you that there was no problem...and in some cases, that could have been their perception...but in most cases there was no problem for them, because they were the problem.
Trammel was a quick fix. There were other ways that should have been explored. So when I say "Trammel ruined UO" it actually did not cause the game to suffer from a subscription standpoint...but the damage that it did in the long run was far greater than most people realize.
Imagine if you will a game in which you could be PK'ed, but the consequences for that would be such that it would make it an undesirable behavior to anyone besides the hardcore RP'ers and those that want a tremendously challenging game experience.
A game like that would never have to become so item based to keep people entertained. The world would be more exciting because of the added challenge, but the risks would not outweigh the rewards.
That is the magical balance that needed to be found. And I know, some people will say..."well, they HAD to add Trammel because they were losing subscriptions to EQ". This is true...but I ask, why did they wait so long to address the issue? If they had started in 1998-1999, and followed through, they could have balanced the PK vs. victim aspect of the game WITHOUT Trammel before May 4, 2000. I am confident of that.
Actually, just to clarify, the "Show Names of Approaching Players" option came in with the August 26, 1999[/quote] patch (this also included the in-game last target and arm/disarm macros).Longest Journey said:
-----
On the subject of PKs and Trammel, I've seen the phrase "rampant pking" thrown around a lot. In that stead, would someone please define "rampant pking"? It's difficult to do reasonably do anything about a problem without knowing exactly what the problem is, and we still don't have a succinct definition of the PK problem.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
"Rampant PKing", at least when I refer to it, means that people were quitting the game, in high numbers, due to not being able to play the game without constantly being PK'ed.
You are not likely to get any hard numbers on this. I doubt there are records of how many people were PK'ed per unit of time from back then.
I think the fact that EA felt it was necessary to essentially remove it from the game is evidence enough that the people who are saying that are correct.
Certainly, the severity of it varied from shard to shard...even location to location. But there are a few people that are posting here, and elsewhere, that would lead people to believe that PKing was not a problem in old UO...and that is just abjectly false.
That isn't the actual act of rampant PKing though, that's the effect of such PKing. I'm more concerned with the specific actions that the PKs themselves were taking that were considered the rampant problem.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
??
Step 1 - See a blue player minding their own business.
Step 2 - Attack that player.
Step 3 - Kill that player.
Step 4 - Take everything the player has.
Now, just do that so much that pretty much everyone besides those following these steps get fed up and start leaving the game in droves. (that's were the rampant part comes in)
There were variations on these steps though, you could substitute the following into the list for #2:
- Get several of your friends to attack the player as well (gank).
- Help the player out with a few heals, wait a little while until the player is full of loot...then once he or she is low on health from fighting a monster...go to step #3.
- Steal from that player and wait for him or her to attack you.
I don't think that the actual methods were really as important as the end result though.
Now we're getting a better idea of the problem, however this now brings up the question of why PKs killed people so often.
This method of fighting was severely curtailed with the introduction of the thieves guild on OSI (February 24, 1999). By forcing all thieves to be count-free in order to steal from innocents, and by turning stealing into an aggressive action, thieves weren't able to continually steal from you, goading you into attacking them. Thieves took a significant risk with each theft due to the aggressive nature of a theft and the possibility of a murder count with each theft.
You're correct, the way in which a PK attempt was executed was of little consequence. The question is merely the first portion of a two part question, the second part having been stated above.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I'd say two reasons:
1 - It was easy.
2 - They enjoyed making it difficult for others to enjoy the game.
Not true. The only thing that publish did was make it so that reds could not be thieves, and so that thieves went grey to everyone when they were caught...not just their victim. Once grey, if the victim attacked the thief, and the thief killed the victim, there was no count given.
R
Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
The why probably differs from PK to PK. There were those who liked the "Challenge" of playing a red. Most players wouldn't really fight back. There was less risk killing players than there was killing monsters. Let the players work for a couple hours and then kill them and take their loot. You've just received two hours of loot for less than a minute of work. I don't see the challenge there. Then you had the ones who liked having power over others, you know the ones I'm talking about, the ones who would attack you then heal you, and talk to you for a bit, make you feel comfortable then kill you. And I'm sure there were some who did it because they got picked on at school or work and just wanted to take it out on someone. Make someone else feel bad and themselves feel good because they know it's a person they'll never see, the "It's just a game" syndrome. Then you have those who just had poor impulse control. And finally those who just liked to see the all the Kal Ort Por's that would pop up when someone with a red name wandered onto the screen.
There's probably more, but the sociology of PK's is not something I really want to get that deep into atm. The point is that most people didn't like getting PK'd. They were leaving the game. That was hurting Orgin/EA's bottom line. They had to do something. That something was Trammel. I don't agree with it. I wish they had found a different way. I have posted my "solution" to the PK problem a couple pages back. If all a PK was looking for was the challenge that came with being red...well my idea would give them plenty of challenge.
GREAT !!! Honesty lights up creativity, not evilness ! I like this, and to be honest I tought about it for a while too. To be completely classic the server will need to have the classic feel, cause you needeth never forget ; it was a progression of sorts and this is what matters, we "felt" the devs back in the day ; since it was so big we didn't feel the drag, but now it's overpowering.
Charming thing that I am able to prevent that while enhancing intimacy for the players who deserve it on the server.
Am I going too fast ? I like you long journey.
That's a terribly narrow-minded view of why some people PK'd.
These are the reasons that I would have attributed to PKing:
- There was a large profit involved in the kill (there were many PK's who made a lot of money killing profitable players).
- The PK received a sense of joy from killing a player that had nothing of value on them.
Of those two reasons, it is clear which one is the problem, and any solution must strike at that issue and not at the concept of PKing.
Wrong.
Excerpts from the February 24, 1999 patch notes:
Excerpt from the February 25, 1999 HoC chat:
Edit: Renyard's analysis pretty much echoes the same things that were said above. These questions really needed to be answered before any sensible system can be built to counteract it.
R
Renyard Foxenwyle
Guest
You wouldn't like the answer to these questions. Most businesses go for easy solutions. Easiest Solution to PK's who kill for easy loot? Don't let them loot people they murdered. Solution to those with impulse control or just want to feel good about themselves etc? Don't let them kill players. Those who want "challenge"...Institute a very challenging system for them to complain about.
The endstate is basically a Trammel/Fell system or some form of PvP switch, which is not what we want.
Also I feel you are trying to make many of your posts seem like there are serious issues that need to be debated before there's even a consensus on what a classic shard should have. I don't know if you actually feel that way, but that's just what I'm getting from my comprehension of some of your posts.
I think Dakkon has put together a pretty coherent post on what we want in a classic shard. I just hope the devs take a lot of that into account.
There are other relatively easy solutions to the problem. The point that I was trying to make was that the only acceptable in-game reason for PKing is for the profit.
For those who argue that the "Challenge" of playing a PK is a legitimate point, if that is the case then those players should be happy with simply being red, or murder their friends characters a couple of times in order to push them into stat loss for the extra challenge.
For those who kill players for the sheer joy of it, the aforementioned solution is what needs to be looked into.
For those who PK for profit, they are partially covered by the system already in existence, but a second system would need to exist in order to stop them from targeting low profit players.
In that stead, suppose that a system like this was used:
1. A player cannot recall or gate if he is an aggressor to someone. This forces players, and particularly PKs, to deal with the consequences of their actions. A PK cannot simply attack a person and escape if that person is capable of fighting back (or if there is a hidden group of anti-PK's in the area).
2. Every 30 seconds, the server will calculate the value of all non-newbie and blessed items being worn by, and in the bag of each player. If a PK kills a player and is reported for a murder as a result, a comparison is made between the value of what the PK carried and the victim carried. If the value of what the PK is carrying is greater than that of the victim by a large enough amount, the PK will suffer temporary stat-loss for a set period of time based on that difference in value.
This provides a significant deterrent for PKs who kill low profit or no profit players, or forces them to carry a very low amount of resources when fighting these types of characters. In either instance, this severely increasing their risk when engaging in this type of behavior (on top of the no recall restriction)
The kind of system explained above helps curtail PKing that is done with no intent other than to cause grief for other players, but does not punish a legitimate means of making money and a source of community-building conflict. Obviously this isn't the only kind of system that can be used, but it serves to strike at the real problem: grief PKing.
For those who argue that the "Challenge" of playing a PK is a legitimate point, if that is the case then those players should be happy with simply being red, or murder their friends characters a couple of times in order to push them into stat loss for the extra challenge.
For those who kill players for the sheer joy of it, the aforementioned solution is what needs to be looked into.
For those who PK for profit, they are partially covered by the system already in existence, but a second system would need to exist in order to stop them from targeting low profit players.
In that stead, suppose that a system like this was used:
1. A player cannot recall or gate if he is an aggressor to someone. This forces players, and particularly PKs, to deal with the consequences of their actions. A PK cannot simply attack a person and escape if that person is capable of fighting back (or if there is a hidden group of anti-PK's in the area).
2. Every 30 seconds, the server will calculate the value of all non-newbie and blessed items being worn by, and in the bag of each player. If a PK kills a player and is reported for a murder as a result, a comparison is made between the value of what the PK carried and the victim carried. If the value of what the PK is carrying is greater than that of the victim by a large enough amount, the PK will suffer temporary stat-loss for a set period of time based on that difference in value.
This provides a significant deterrent for PKs who kill low profit or no profit players, or forces them to carry a very low amount of resources when fighting these types of characters. In either instance, this severely increasing their risk when engaging in this type of behavior (on top of the no recall restriction)
The kind of system explained above helps curtail PKing that is done with no intent other than to cause grief for other players, but does not punish a legitimate means of making money and a source of community-building conflict. Obviously this isn't the only kind of system that can be used, but it serves to strike at the real problem: grief PKing.
E
Evlar
Guest
All this PK talk... I know it's important to get the system right within a classic shard...
... I just want my miner/smith to feel loved again when he's stood at Brit Forge
... I just want my miner/smith to feel loved again when he's stood at Brit Forge
God will save you from the PKs... and now you owe something to "god"...
This is a terrible, terrible idea.
The devs of that day spent so much time looking for exploitable bug fixes that they didn't really think out the murderer system, it was after all a minority profiting a majority.
There was a time when it felt right, but in retrospect, it can never work with a fresh start server, it would advantage exactly the shallow type of murderer.
It's cheap, you can't honestly think it'll work...
The devs are far beyond that now, they're going "experimental" about it and well there is also the fact that if it includes GOD, everyone loses.
Guardian of Doom...
This is a terrible, terrible idea.
The devs of that day spent so much time looking for exploitable bug fixes that they didn't really think out the murderer system, it was after all a minority profiting a majority.
There was a time when it felt right, but in retrospect, it can never work with a fresh start server, it would advantage exactly the shallow type of murderer.
It's cheap, you can't honestly think it'll work...
The devs are far beyond that now, they're going "experimental" about it and well there is also the fact that if it includes GOD, everyone loses.
Guardian of Doom...
D
Derrick83
Guest
Out of nowhere I get a newsletter in my email from stratics (I havnt got anything from them in years) and its a headline that their is a poll for a classic shard. This is the first time I have logged into stratics for almost a year and its been longer since I have had a active UO account.
I started playing December of 97 and played pretty regularly until about 3 years ago. It's just a different game now that it was back then. If a classic shard was added, I would for sure reactivate my account.
Just adding my 2 cents
Edit:
Also as I have started reading the end part of this post I see people talking about PKs. PKs are a part of the game. If you mine in a secluded place far away from town, you run the risk of getting PK'd. That was all part of the fun of the game back then. I was a noto-pk and killed red/greys back then, but their were lots of them to kill. I was a PvPr that did not want to go red, so I hung around the common PK places and would kill the PK's that would come(like minoc mine, bucs den, outside moonglow, brit GY etc). This would return I believe and balance things. If you dont want to be PK'd, get hiding or hire a body guard or do your stuff close enough to town or a known place so people would be around to help. It was a part of the strategy of the game and what made it fun. If your going to try to deter PK's then just go ahead and put in trammel.. and if you gonna do that why do a classic shard? PKs are a part of the game too.
I started playing December of 97 and played pretty regularly until about 3 years ago. It's just a different game now that it was back then. If a classic shard was added, I would for sure reactivate my account.
Just adding my 2 cents
Edit:
Also as I have started reading the end part of this post I see people talking about PKs. PKs are a part of the game. If you mine in a secluded place far away from town, you run the risk of getting PK'd. That was all part of the fun of the game back then. I was a noto-pk and killed red/greys back then, but their were lots of them to kill. I was a PvPr that did not want to go red, so I hung around the common PK places and would kill the PK's that would come(like minoc mine, bucs den, outside moonglow, brit GY etc). This would return I believe and balance things. If you dont want to be PK'd, get hiding or hire a body guard or do your stuff close enough to town or a known place so people would be around to help. It was a part of the strategy of the game and what made it fun. If your going to try to deter PK's then just go ahead and put in trammel.. and if you gonna do that why do a classic shard? PKs are a part of the game too.
That is why many, myself included said that if they make a classic shard then a trammel version would be needed for those like you that enjoy sitting at the same spawn killing brainless animations. Although most here would play the t2a version.God will save you from the PKs... and now you owe something to "god"...
This is a terrible, terrible idea.
The devs of that day spent so much time looking for exploitable bug fixes that they didn't really think out the murderer system, it was after all a minority profiting a majority.
There was a time when it felt right, but in retrospect, it can never work with a fresh start server, it would advantage exactly the shallow type of murderer.
It's cheap, you can't honestly think it'll work...
The devs are far beyond that now, they're going "experimental" about it and well there is also the fact that if it includes GOD, everyone loses.
Guardian of Doom...
T
Trebr Drab
Guest
How's this work when you consider someone with a couple of extra magic swords they got from hunting MOBs for hours, and can only use one of them in defense?
How's it work in the case of ganking?
How's it work in the case of killing miners and their packies for their ore?
How's this work when someone of "value" is PKed after being beaten down by a MOB?
And I have to ask, why is it ok to PK someone just because they have value?
T
Trebr Drab
Guest
Kaivan, What we need in the light that you seem to be thinking is a better war system. Making war something that's wide open and unofficial is just another system to justify PKing, but doing it where it belongs is what we really need.
I've been rethinking an old idea of mine revolving around War Chests that have value and give capabilities to their guilds, and special Surcoats bought through these War Chests that allow for warfare between wearers, and can be captured and thus removing that player from the war, and can be later ransomed under certain circumstances. The War Chests maybe should also be capturable, but I haven't worked out all the details yet. War Chests also linked to resources and gathering.
I think something like this would give a better warfare feel, and what you are after?
I've been rethinking an old idea of mine revolving around War Chests that have value and give capabilities to their guilds, and special Surcoats bought through these War Chests that allow for warfare between wearers, and can be captured and thus removing that player from the war, and can be later ransomed under certain circumstances. The War Chests maybe should also be capturable, but I haven't worked out all the details yet. War Chests also linked to resources and gathering.
I think something like this would give a better warfare feel, and what you are after?
H
HerculesSAS
Guest
I have not visited stratics in probably 5 or 6 years, and reading this poll and interest gives me great hope that I can once again play UO to its fullest.
I support a classic shard, and have been waiting for one to be introduced for some time. Hope it comes through.
I support a classic shard, and have been waiting for one to be introduced for some time. Hope it comes through.
E
Evlar
Guest
Hmm... maybe there's more "fans" of the classic shard idea within the Stratics team, than care to admit in public, if that was the headline of the email
T
Tay M'real
Guest
That was a well put - a little fiery - but well put.
And in all honesty - resource allocation would be no more required on 1 additional server considering there would not be additional content to support for the future...it would simply be reverted code. It exists in the free-shard world today and can exist with better support and reliability thru EA.
The only thing I fear is that EA would somehow look at this idea and it giving the impression that modern UO sucks compared to the original. Do I think that, no...but I do prefer the old style and more simplistic approach to the game when I started in 1999.
Good times...good times....
And for those who say Siege.....Siege is nothing like old-school UO.
V
Vernalex
Guest
I really miss the old UO before the ninjas and other sillyness took over. In my opinion the best time was T2A or perhaps the original launch. The split universe was a terrible idea that made the game lose its edge. When you're out minding our own business and a pk appears your heart gets going. And if given the chance for a safe realm then why would you risk it? Especially since then only the pks will be there. I stopped playing UO because it lost its original magic.
Are we talking about asking EA to create an official classic shard? If so I would fully support a T2A ruleset with a few minor tweaks. Personally I'd like to see no houses in the game (and in that case an enlarged bank), or maybe a separate zone (gate to some rather flat area with just space) for houses because otherwise the world feels too crowded. And the vanishing house timer shouldn't exist.
If this were done properly I would gladly start paying for UO again and I now plenty of others that would too.
Vernalex Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
Are we talking about asking EA to create an official classic shard? If so I would fully support a T2A ruleset with a few minor tweaks. Personally I'd like to see no houses in the game (and in that case an enlarged bank), or maybe a separate zone (gate to some rather flat area with just space) for houses because otherwise the world feels too crowded. And the vanishing house timer shouldn't exist.
If this were done properly I would gladly start paying for UO again and I now plenty of others that would too.
Vernalex Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
E
Evlar
Guest
Looking at the fact that something as simple as a Stratics email headline seems to be generating interest in the classic shard discussion...
...perhaps those of us calling for it should be a bit more proactive on other forums, blogs, games.
It's already been suggested that there's a lot of people out there, who used to play UO, who just might be interested in a return should a classic shard happen. Not all of those people either did or do look at Stratics. Since Stratics is now the apparent "hub" when it comes to developers making statements, sharing ideas, concepts, for UO, we really need to get more people here to add their voices to the debate.
Ultimately, the more people we can get here calling for a classic server or two, the more likely it is to happen, simply because there's more potential $$$ subscription potential to make it a worthwhile venture.
Obviously I only cancelled my subscriptions a couple of weeks ago, simply because the current game isn't to my tastes. I would very quickly re-subscribe as soon as a confirmed and "official" announcement comes, that it was in fact going to happen. I would want to be part of any potential beta-testing and help shape our world, I would hope to be involved in the shard the moment it became live.
...perhaps those of us calling for it should be a bit more proactive on other forums, blogs, games.
It's already been suggested that there's a lot of people out there, who used to play UO, who just might be interested in a return should a classic shard happen. Not all of those people either did or do look at Stratics. Since Stratics is now the apparent "hub" when it comes to developers making statements, sharing ideas, concepts, for UO, we really need to get more people here to add their voices to the debate.
Ultimately, the more people we can get here calling for a classic server or two, the more likely it is to happen, simply because there's more potential $$$ subscription potential to make it a worthwhile venture.
Obviously I only cancelled my subscriptions a couple of weeks ago, simply because the current game isn't to my tastes. I would very quickly re-subscribe as soon as a confirmed and "official" announcement comes, that it was in fact going to happen. I would want to be part of any potential beta-testing and help shape our world, I would hope to be involved in the shard the moment it became live.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
As I said...easy. It was far easier back then gank 1 or 2 blue players than it was to spend hours fighting NPC monsters. The players would have much better loot than an monsters carried. Believe me, I know. I was an anti-PK, and while your average PK traveled lighter than a blue, they still had some nice loot on them compared to say, a dozen liches. We never kept anything we took off of PKs. We gave it all away to newbies and people we rez'ed after they were PKed.
But it doesn't change the fact that getting 4 reds to gank a single blue was far easier than taking those same 4 players and trying to gank a dragon or a balron (back when those two creatures really meant something).
Also as I said...they were looking to ruin the game experience for someone else.
When a PK killed a lumberjack for example, it was not for profit. It was usually very easy...as I stated above...but it was not for loot. Most resources gatherers did so near their homes or near town. They generally only carried tools. Most wore no armor, had no regs, and as you said...nothing of any real value on them.
What purpose was there in killing a player like that beyond causing that person an inconvenience?
The problem is, to address the two issues you have listed, which I contend are the same issues I listed, just worded in a less anti-pk sort of way...you would have to remove player looting, and you would have to change human nature.
Neither of those two things is very appealing. I won't get into to trying to change the enjoyment some people get out of cause grief to others...there is nothing that can be done about that. People even do it here on Stratics...so nothing in game would ever prevent that.
But I will address removing player looting. I am against that. It creates a situation like the one that exists on the current shards now. Too little risk, not enough challenge, and that leads to item hording. Item hording leads to boredom of players, which in turn leads to the need for escalation, which leads to an item based game like we have now. I have little interest in playing in an environment like that...otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time advocating for a Classic Shard...I would just play the current game and shut up (which I am sure many people would be very glad of that!
)
L
Lord__Archimonde
Guest
Just got an email from stratics about the possibility of a classic shard, and that details were being worked out.
Logged onto stratics for the first time in a while to say that if a classic shard does come out, I'll be reactivating my accounts and playing again!
The info in Dakkon Blackblades sticky sounds amazing, and I'd love to be able to return to Ultima and play on a server with rules like that.
Nothing really to add to the discussion, just wanted to show my support
Logged onto stratics for the first time in a while to say that if a classic shard does come out, I'll be reactivating my accounts and playing again!
The info in Dakkon Blackblades sticky sounds amazing, and I'd love to be able to return to Ultima and play on a server with rules like that.
Nothing really to add to the discussion, just wanted to show my support
- Status