Classic shard.

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Just my two cents. If you start putting in pvp switches or penalties for pk'ing that are too severe you will destroy one of the fundamentals of a "classic" server and you might as well not even bother creating it in the first place. Like it or not non-consentual pvp is what will drive a classic server, and will be one of the main reasons many will want to check it out. Which incidentally will also be one of the many reasons why classic servers will never replace "regular" UO.

I agree...no PvP switches...no Trammel or anything like it.

But you have to find a way to balance it so that playing a PK is not easier than playing a non-PK...otherwise, all you will have is a shard full of PKs. The PKs will then get bored and quit...leaving an empty shard.

I think if the devs are going to do this, they need to put careful thought into what can make this shard a success. They also need to follow up on it, and make sure that what they do is the right course of action...and not let it slip through the cracks the way Siege has.

You are going to get some people here who will scream ... "Well, that's not classic!"

They are right to an extent, it is not. However, a 65 Mustang convertible is a classic car, even if you put a GPS system in it for convenience.

 

[Evlar]

Blimey... nobody notice the safety wink then...

Of course I care about how elements of PvP are implemented, should classic shards happen. I would most likely participate more than I ever have, knowing that it would likely be more balanced.

I also understand that there were plenty of rhymes with "spankers" around who's sole pleasure was spoiling others fun.

Perhaps I'm on the fence with the whole PvP debate. Yes, PK's who PK'd for no other reason but to annoy were... well... annoying, but they didn't stop me playing the game. My miner did ok, could actually look after himself eventually and the idiots didn't get any satisfaction from killing my non-fighting characters.

I've pointed out earlier though, that PvP in any shape or form, only really held my interest if there was a point to it. I've hunted PK's, I've fought in guild wars, role-play battles, I've taken on other players 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc... when it had a point to it, then it was great fun.

The twofold problem with PvP was that some liked it, some didn't. Where open PvP is permitted, this will always be the problem.

For what it's worth, you'll never remove griefers simply by using stat-loss on reds. You need deeper game mechanics or a reporting system that genuinely reports "harrassment" and "griefing". The downside there, is that you will get players who resent any form of assault on their online persona, be it consentual or non-consentual.

I'm afraid that when it comes to PvP, I tend to lean towards something with more structure. What particular structure that is, is the million dollar question, but it has to be something that embraces a community, not drive it apart or scatter it.

 

[Trebr Drab]

if you attack a flagged criminal, you've started the fight and you should accept the consequences

This.

Victims have to have the right to defend themselves. Ending up dead for it is no justification for the perpetrator. Easily abused and it was. It just doesn't work.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Victims have to have the right to defend themselves. Ending up dead for it is no justification for the perpetrator. Easily abused and it was. It just doesn't work.

Victims DID have the right to defend themselves...but if you are going to attack a thief that has stolen from you, you better be prepared to finish the job.

Thieves had a role in old school UO, and should again IMO. There was really nothing that a thief could steal from you that you couldn't replace, and unless you were incredibly careless back then, you would arrange your pack so that thieves could do little to cause you any real problems.

Best anti-thief tactics:
- Carry a lockable wooden box. Put everything that matters in that box besides your regs.
- Keep spare keys to that box in your bank box.
- Put that box inside another bag.
- Make sure that box contains enough weight that a thief cannot steal the box whole.
- Carry 10 of each reg in 3 different bags.
- Carry 20 of each reg in one bag that is locked in the wooden box.
- When you pick up loot, if it is valuable...lock it in the box.
- If a thief steals from you, and they are taking a reg, like black pearl...they are attempting to get you to attack them. If you feel up to the challenge...go for it. Otherwise, let them enjoy their 10 black pearl rolleyes:

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Like it or not non-consentual pvp is what will drive a classic server,

While you are correct in your assessment that too harsh a penalty for murdering my drive away some people, you have to ask yourself honestly...was Non-Con pvp really a driving force in old school UO? For me and you it may have been. I enjoyed the fact that I had to learn to avoid certain areas early on in my playing. I loved the fact that I had to learn to do certain things to make myself hard to steal from at the bank. Did everyone feel that way? I think just looking at the state of the game after UO:R answers that question handily. No, 90-95% of the player base moved to Tram and stayed there, even after such incentives like double resources and power scrolls were added to Fell to entice people to go there.

I hate to say it, but I think a classic server could actually survive if it was just Tram. I say this because in game after game which has released with both PvE and PvP servers, the PvE servers are vastly more populated. Free for all PvP games are a niche market, look at Darkfall and Mortal Online. Pretty much sandbox free for all PvP "paradise's" but Darkfall languishes in the 4-7k subscriber land, and Mortal? I won't even guess at that but i've been playing the open beta and rarely see many people on it, though it is in a sad state atm which could be the reason too.

Shortening my train of thought it's basically this. Most people want to play a game to enjoy it. They do not enjoy being killed or stolen from by other players. While I think a classic server should be Non-con, I am just saying that in the end EA could make a Tram shard and it probably would be just as successful as a T2A shard.

I think the yearning for a classic shard isn't just the fighting with the PK's, its the simplicity of things, not having to have a calculator to figure out if your suits are good, it's crafting, gathering, socializing. Things that don't seem to happen much from reading other posts about the state of the game.

 

[Evlar]

I think the yearning for a classic shard isn't just the fighting with the PK's, its the simplicity of things, not having to have a calculator to figure out if your suits are good, it's crafting, gathering, socializing. Things that don't seem to happen much from reading other posts about the state of the game.

Bingo!

PvP for me was just a part of the wider game that I embraced.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

.
- If a thief steals from you, and they are taking a reg, like black pearl...they are attempting to get you to attack them. If you feel up to the challenge...go for it. Otherwise, let them enjoy their 10 black pearl rolleyes:

Lol I remember when I learned the lesson of regs in multiple bags. I had been playing maybe 2 months, we had just changed from Noto to the rep system. I had maybe 70 skill in magery and thought I was a bad mofo because I could cast e-bolt. I was out near Cove and a guy came by and stole from me. I didn't do anything, he stole from me again. I got mad and attacked him. I went to cast e-bolt and lo and behold, he had stolen my mandrake and black pearl from me. Out came his heavy x-bow and I was laid out. Never forgot that lesson though.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

What's the purpose of a Classic Shard with Trammel?

There are 25 shards that are currently running for people that want Trammel to choose from. There is no need to add another one. There are already too many shards with a split ruleset...so much so that they probably need to merge several of them, or just shut down a few.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

What's the purpose of a Classic Shard with Trammel?

There are 25 shards that are currently running for people that want Trammel to choose from. There is no need to add another one. There are already too many shards with a split ruleset...so much so that they probably need to merge several of them, or just shut down a few.

The point I was trying to make is that for quite a few people who are interested in a classic shard it isn't so much the lack of a trammel and the non-con pvp, but a return to the original system of the game where you didn't have to be a mathematician in order to figure out your gear. You could pick up some GM crafted armor, a weapon, and head out to do whatever it was you were wanting to do. It is the needless itemization's that have ruined UO for me and probably quite a few others. I loved the fights I had before Tram, I hate the fact that the way EA implemented Tram destroyed a lot of player run establishments and communities, but I will never deny that most people had a problem with non-con pvp, otherwise Tram would have been the wasteland and not fell. And yeah I moved to Tram after I placed my Villa south of the farms of Yew. Besides, after Tram there was no need for Anti-PK's, because those who went to Fell knew the risk.

That being said, I want the classic server to be T2A with no Tram.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Victims have to have the right to defend themselves. Ending up dead for it is no justification for the perpetrator. Easily abused and it was. It just doesn't work.

Victims DID have the right to defend themselves...but if you are going to attack a thief that has stolen from you, you better be prepared to finish the job.

Thieves had a role in old school UO, and should again IMO. There was really nothing that a thief could steal from you that you couldn't replace, and unless you were incredibly careless back then, you would arrange your pack so that thieves could do little to cause you any real problems.

Best anti-thief tactics:
- Carry a lockable wooden box. Put everything that matters in that box besides your regs.
- Keep spare keys to that box in your bank box.
- Put that box inside another bag.
- Make sure that box contains enough weight that a thief cannot steal the box whole.
- Carry 10 of each reg in 3 different bags.
- Carry 20 of each reg in one bag that is locked in the wooden box.
- When you pick up loot, if it is valuable...lock it in the box.
- If a thief steals from you, and they are taking a reg, like black pearl...they are attempting to get you to attack them. If you feel up to the challenge...go for it. Otherwise, let them enjoy their 10 black pearl rolleyes:

So, if you don't think you are up to beating them, you have to make another choice. Let them keep stealing from you, or leave.
If you let them just keep stealing from you, soon you won't have any regs left. Then you have no options left. You have to leave. On top of that, the thief PKer has a clear advantage over you if they decide to kill you anyways. You're healing is all gone.

People will just not understand that protecting the game play of griefers always leads to said griefers ruining the game play of others. Give them a system, and they will game it.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

So, if you don't think you are up to beating them, you have to make another choice. Let them keep stealing from you, or leave.
If you let them just keep stealing from you, soon you won't have any regs left. Then you have no options left. You have to leave. On top of that, the thief PKer has a clear advantage over you if they decide to kill you anyways. You're healing is all gone.

People will just not understand that protecting the game play of griefers always leads to said griefers ruining the game play of others. Give them a system, and they will game it.

In theory I agree with what you are saying. But how could they address this without removing thieves from the game?

As memory serves, the problem really stemmed from thief PKs with blue friends. The thief would steal your black pearl, or mandrake root, go grey, and wait for you to attack. Once you did, there were 3-5 blues there constantly healing and buffing the thief.

I was always pretty good at dealing with thief PKs because I was a tamer...and even though *I* couldn't cast without regs, my WW, my Dragon, and my nightmare could.

So...best mechanisms to deal with the problem??

- Thieves that kill a blue, even if the blue attacks first, get counts?
- Anyone healing a red for x duration gets the same counts the red does?

I think no matter what you do in an open PvP environment, there are going to be instances in which griefing takes place. There are many instances where griefing takes place in Trammel now...just a different kind of griefing.

I wouldn't want to see it so restricted that no one would ever PK anyone...or play a thief. Those two things were part of the game from day 1 and should have remained so in my opinion. I think the devs just didn't do enough to make sure that it wasn't taken too far.

 

[SoulStealer A.O]

Having the origional NOTO system added in would be interested, but you could tweak it.

Like, Thieves would be perma gray, but have it so you could attack them in town whever you seen them. Blue PKS could be removed by having Dastardly, Dark Lord and Evil Lord noto rank all red and attackable in town. Maybe have it so npc sell things at a higher price to them the lower their noto is. Dread Lords could be red, KoS to guards, 10% stat on death or whatever it is. Change the system so you gain 1pt of noto every 15min and have it so if a Dread wants to raise it noto it takes a long time of actually playing, PvMing and not commiting evil acts.

I know the idea is crazy, but just a thought. Could make it easier to Player Police criminals in the game, while still letting them play their playstyle and keeping an old school feel to things.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Hmm, ok, didn't thieves go gray only to their target in the last rendition before Trammel? That might be why I'm remembering problems with it.

If they go gray to all who "notice" them trying to steal, that would be another bonus. That along with blue healers going gray for healing/curing/helping them.
And if they get away with something, then perma gray to the victim until killed by them.

Looters just went gray, right? Maybe that should allow a thief attempt?

 

[Trebr Drab]

Having the origional NOTO system added in would be interested, but you could tweak it.

Like, Thieves would be perma gray, but have it so you could attack them in town whever you seen them. Blue PKS could be removed by having Dastardly, Dark Lord and Evil Lord noto rank all red and attackable in town. Maybe have it so npc sell things at a higher price to them the lower their noto is. Dread Lords could be red, KoS to guards, 10% stat on death or whatever it is. Change the system so you gain 1pt of noto every 15min and have it so if a Dread wants to raise it noto it takes a long time of actually playing, PvMing and not commiting evil acts.

I know the idea is crazy, but just a thought. Could make it easier to Player Police criminals in the game, while still letting them play their playstyle and keeping an old school feel to things.

I don't remember the old noto system well enough to get this. So I'm not sure what you are getting at. Is this so that big time thieves and looters eventually become reds?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

The old noto system was a joke. It was way too easy to manipulate, and before the warning gump was put in, you could accidentally hit a friend and lose Noto. Once you got into negoative noto, you were grey to everyone. Thieves would go to Dark Lord from just snooping! And if you wanted be a Great Lord or Lady, all you had to do was give muffins to NPC healers.

Also...it wouldn't matter if a blue healing a red went grey or not...the problem in the scenario we were discussing before was that a thief would steal from you, go grey and you would attack...then his blue friends would heal him. If he killed you, he got no counts...and neither did the blues that were helping him.

Something would need to be devised that flagged a thief as an aggressor once they steal, and if they kill any blue players while that flag is on, it should result in a murder count. That solves problem # 1.

Problem # 2 is blue "helpers". That's going to be trickier...but I think it could be done. Something would have to be added so that if you heal or buff a red, that flags you, and if that red kills a blue while that flag is on, it should result in a murder count. That should solve problem # 2.

You still have issues with people blocking players with energy fields and wall of stone. That is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to do anything about.

 

[Kaleb]

Problem # 2 is blue "helpers". That's going to be trickier...but I think it could be done. Something would have to be added so that if you heal or buff a red, that flags you, and if that red kills a blue while that flag is on, it should result in a murder count. That should solve problem # 2.

Why make it hard? Make it where blues cant heal, buff, rez reds?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Why make it hard? Make it where blues cant heal, buff, rez reds?

Works for me!

 

[SoulStealer A.O]

First of all, Snooping and Stealing only put you to Dishonourable (Which meant you were perma gray to everyone but at the time couldnt be attacked in town). If you healed people with lower Noto, your noto was lower.

Yes you could cheat the system by giving gold to npcs, but now a days you could tweak it as I said. For example, make it so it's only raised by killing mobs. I'm not saying we should consider using the exact system here because it was flawed. There were a lot of good points to it in terms of play policing and identifying Evil / Criminal players which is why I brought it up for suggestion.

Also with a noto system if a blue was healing a thief, they would drop in noto until they were eventually perma gray. If they were healing a red, they would drop in noto until they too were red. The system did have some good ideas and if modified to what we know today, it could work.. Don't you think?

 

[SoulStealer A.O]

If we stick with the T2A / Uo:R system for the PK issue, I don't think blues shouldn't be allowed to heal reds. Unless you're saying that they need to be flagged criminal before healing via attacking a blue so they get a count if that blue dies.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

yeah I think noto is muuuch better than this kind of religion which people seem to all go fanatical about...

GOD applies stat loss on DEATH !!!

GOD makes it so you cannot heal a RED PLAYER !

GOD IS EVERYWHERE... THOU SHALL DIE !!!

*no offense meant* it's just there the general tone leads to.

Religion.

 

[HD2300]

While you are correct in your assessment that too harsh a penalty for murdering my drive away some people, you have to ask yourself honestly...was Non-Con pvp really a driving force in old school UO? For me and you it may have been. I enjoyed the fact that I had to learn to avoid certain areas early on in my playing. I loved the fact that I had to learn to do certain things to make myself hard to steal from at the bank. Did everyone feel that way? I think just looking at the state of the game after UO:R answers that question handily. No, 90-95% of the player base moved to Tram and stayed there, even after such incentives like double resources and power scrolls were added to Fell to entice people to go there.

I hate to say it, but I think a classic server could actually survive if it was just Tram. I say this because in game after game which has released with both PvE and PvP servers, the PvE servers are vastly more populated. Free for all PvP games are a niche market, look at Darkfall and Mortal Online. Pretty much sandbox free for all PvP "paradise's" but Darkfall languishes in the 4-7k subscriber land, and Mortal? I won't even guess at that but i've been playing the open beta and rarely see many people on it, though it is in a sad state atm which could be the reason too.

Shortening my train of thought it's basically this. Most people want to play a game to enjoy it. They do not enjoy being killed or stolen from by other players. While I think a classic server should be Non-con, I am just saying that in the end EA could make a Tram shard and it probably would be just as successful as a T2A shard.

I think the yearning for a classic shard isn't just the fighting with the PK's, its the simplicity of things, not having to have a calculator to figure out if your suits are good, it's crafting, gathering, socializing. Things that don't seem to happen much from reading other posts about the state of the game.

this.

Darkfall = dying. Warhammer and Age of Conan = massive initial subs now dead.

This is proof of the wolves and sheep theory. Few now will pay to be a sheep.

Trammel/Fel failed. Everyone agrees EA UO is dying. When you cater to a small minority, the majority will gradually leave, like it has. If EA had implemented PvE only and PvP only shards, EA UO would now be thriving. PvE only shards would have only consentual PvP such as guild wars, factions and tournaments, if ever implemented.

This is why there should be PvE only and PvP only shards, both SA and Classic.

 

[Longest Journey]

If we stick with the T2A / Uo:R system for the PK issue, I don't think blues shouldn't be allowed to heal reds. Unless you're saying that they need to be flagged criminal before healing via attacking a blue so they get a count if that blue dies.

The way it worked in T2A was, if a blue healed a red, they got flagged grey and were usually killed by blues for doing so.

Even then, a blue healing a red was a rare occurance.

 

[Longest Journey]

this.

Darkfall = dying. Warhammer and Age of Conan = massive initial subs now dead.

First of all, Darkfail is dying because it was horribly developed by a bunch of shooter junkies who didnt know the first thing about making a good mmo. I mean, come on, the game was in all first person, making money was next to impossible, there was no penalties for PKs, and there is no other content to the game besides PVP. Thats all there is to do in Darkfall is PvP, nothing else.

Warhammer was released with alpha test quality, at best.

AoC: all hype, no content, memory leaks, bugs GALORE.

Thats why those games are failing. Developer incompetance and were rushed.

This is proof of the wolves and sheep theory. Few now will pay to be a sheep.

How are AOC and War evidence of the sheep and wolves theory? All they prove is that games need to be fully developed and not rushed.

All Darkfall proves is that you need to add more to a game than PvP.

Trammel/Fel failed. Everyone agrees EA UO is dying. When you cater to a small minority, the majority will gradually leave, like it has. If EA had implemented PvE only and PvP only shards, EA UO would now be thriving. PvE only shards would have only consentual PvP such as guild wars, factions and tournaments, if ever implemented.

You bascially do have trammel only servers out now...... and they arent doing too good.

EA did do a PvP server, it was called seige perilous. However, instead of making it a recreation of the pre trammel era, they warped it into an impossible, single character slot, pain in the ass.

This is why there should be PvE only and PvP only shards, both SA and Classic.

Yeah, by all means, do this. Lets hold the post AOS servers against the Second Age servers. I eagerly await sweet vindication.

 

[Longest Journey]

The old noto system was a joke. It was way too easy to manipulate, and before the warning gump was put in, you could accidentally hit a friend and lose Noto. Once you got into negoative noto, you were grey to everyone. Thieves would go to Dark Lord from just snooping! And if you wanted be a Great Lord or Lady, all you had to do was give muffins to NPC healers.

Which it was dropped for the blue/red/grey sysem.

Also...it wouldn't matter if a blue healing a red went grey or not...the problem in the scenario we were discussing before was that a thief would steal from you, go grey and you would attack...then his blue friends would heal him. If he killed you, he got no counts...and neither did the blues that were helping him.

No, but those blues went grey when they healed the grey guy and usually got either ganked by the guards or by all of the players in the area.

Something would need to be devised that flagged a thief as an aggressor once they steal, and if they kill any blue players while that flag is on, it should result in a murder count. That solves problem # 1.

Okay.

Problem # 2 is blue "helpers". That's going to be trickier...but I think it could be done. Something would have to be added so that if you heal or buff a red, that flags you, and if that red kills a blue while that flag is on, it should result in a murder count. That should solve problem # 2.

I think the phrase youre looking for is accessory to murder, and yeah, it would be interesting to see.

You still have issues with people blocking players with energy fields and wall of stone. That is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to do anything about.

Wait....what? That was the point of those spells, to act as walls to block enemies from getting close to the caster. Those spells saved my hide more times than I can count when I was on my mages and I bet the same goes for a lot of others. They cant harm anyone and if someone throws one down in your path to prevent escape.....oh well. Gotta stand and fight.

 

[Shakkar]

:gun:NO WE HAVE A CLASSIC SHARD PER SAY ITS SEIGE PERILOUS.
If ya want to sell me on a classic shard figure out how to fill up seige before making another worthless use of server space.Yes i play on seige and would not currently support another (classic) shard.Fix what we got before adding more dead weight.

 

[_Zen]

:gun:NO WE HAVE A CLASSIC SHARD PER SAY ITS SEIGE PERILOUS.
If ya want to sell me on a classic shard figure out how to fill up seige before making another worthless use of server space.Yes i play on seige and would not currently support another (classic) shard.Fix what we got before adding more dead weight.

I don't think you understand what people are asking for in a classic shard. We want things PRE-AOS, and preferably PRE-REN. We want the old system, not just another siege. It would not be dead weight.. There are thousands of people out there that want a classic shard, if you don't believe me just look at the classic style free servers. I see a large quantity of the players playing classic free shards coming back if there was a classic shard, as well as old UO vets that have since then left the game and moved on to the other ones.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

:gun:NO WE HAVE A CLASSIC SHARD PER SAY ITS SEIGE PERILOUS.
If ya want to sell me on a classic shard figure out how to fill up seige before making another worthless use of server space.Yes i play on seige and would not currently support another (classic) shard.Fix what we got before adding more dead weight.

You are confusing a classic shard with an AOS PvP shard. A classic shard would not have all the item properties, neon colors, artifacts, need for calculators etc... that you need in game now.

Instead you would have: Heading to the North Britain Blacksmith to get your Katana of Vanquishing repaired by a blacksmith who was actually playing the game, buying a GM suit of armor that you know is going to be decent without having to break out a calculator, fighting those PK's at the Britain crossroads, not seeing eyesore custom houses or just blank plots with a trashcan and 1 tile entrance. There would be increases socialization because you had to depend on other players to get things crafted, or fixed etc...

And since Ahua brought up religion...well call those of us who long for a classic shard Ahmish then, because we long for a simpler time.

 

[Kaivan]

So, after carefully reading most of the posts in this thread over the last couple of days, I'm finally ready to make my first post.

-----

First, let me say that while I think that almost everyone discussing a classic server really does have a grasp of what UO was really about, I think it is important to really know what the developers believed it was "about". In that light, I figured that I'd share a quote from Raph Koster regarding his viewpoint on non-consensual PvP and the community building aspect that it created:

Jonric: Do you feel the nature of a game's community is affected by the presence or absence of non-consensual Player versus Player combat?

Designer Dragon: I think it is affected a lot. A society encompasses many types of people, and the strongest societies are those that embrace that range of difference. Homogeneous cultures tend to die off. So conflict and different viewpoints are important. Whether the conflict takes the form of player vs player combat seems immaterial to me, as long as there are mediums for competition of some sort. Beyond that, I feel that the ability of players to engage in player vs player combat encourages group activity and socialization. The bad guys are forever getting together to do raids, the good guys are organizing police forces. It adds a very interesting dynamic. Of course, there's plenty of people out there who don't want to have PvP impinge upon their experience in any way, and if PvP gets out of hand, they will be very unhappy. It's quite a juggling act to have non-consensual PvP in your game.

Jonric: Can you perhaps elaborate on the community-building dynamic inherent in PvP?

Designer Dragon: Being attacked tends to form community bonds very quickly, and they tend to be strong ones. Facing any kind of adversity does that - how many Reader's Digest stories have you read about tragedies or adventures which resulted in the group being friends forever afterwards? PvP happens to be one way to get that sort of adversity in a way that matters. If you just have monsters attack a town, there's no real significance if you win or lose - but if it's a player-built town and actual players who will occupy it if you lose, then you've got something that matters that you're fighting for. And that's a very real psychological difference. Keep in mind, this is just MY opinion. Folks like Dr. Cat, who's currently working on Furcadia, disagree with me on this. It's hardly a settled issue, and there are lots of opinions on the matter!

Long story short: community through conflict

-----

Second, for all those who believe that a classic shard would not do well, there is a powerful indicator of how well that this type of shard would do: free shards. As a person who has been involved with free shards ever since the introduction of AoS, I can tell you that in the history of free shards, the most popular types of shards for the last 7 years have all been UOR or T2A related free shards (essentially "classic" shards). In fact, the two most popular free shards available right now are both T2A and UOR related shards.

Given that fact, I can tell you that I would be on a classic serve in a hot minute, and while I cant be certain how many others would come, it would be a significant number.

-----

Third, many of the discussions in here have talked about overall mechanics for the game, but haven't really focused on the details of implementing these systems. In these types of discussions, it is important to be aware of exactly how these systems worked in order to understand their merits and pitfalls. For most people here, these specifics have become extremely fuzzy over time and aren't well know at all anymore.

For example, the taming system that was discussed a few pages back changed 5 times between the release of the game and UOR. Which of those systems should be chosen, and why should one system be chosen over another? This kind of question can't be asked without understanding how the systems worked.

Another example is the recent discussion regarding thieves. Depending on what time frame you are thinking about, the mechanics to curtail abusive stealing tactics were non-existent, moderate, or severe. Without knowing when each system was in place, and how each system worked, it becomes difficult to determine which system best controls extremely abusive behavior with respect to a classic server environment.

-----

Finally, since the discussion has centered around stat-loss and the function of PK's I would like to point out 1 fact about stat-loss. Stat-loss was NOT removed just before UOR. How do I know this? There is mention of changes to how stat-loss is applied to PK's in the Publish 16 Patch Notes. Since there is clear evidence that stat-loss was still in existence during the very end of UOR, it is safe to conclude that it existed between the end of T2A and Publish 16.

As for an opinion on the subject, I do have one but I won't express it in this post. However, I will say that this quote

I don't think PKs ruined the game because they could PK people. I think their irresponsible abuse of that ability caused the devs to ruin the game to keep everyone that was fed up with their behavior from canceling their accounts and going elsewhere.

from early on in this thread serves as a very good starting point for tackling the problem logically and coming up with a solution with the fine granularity to deal with this problem properly.

 

[Evlar]

:gun:NO WE HAVE A CLASSIC SHARD PER SAY ITS SEIGE PERILOUS.
If ya want to sell me on a classic shard figure out how to fill up seige before making another worthless use of server space.Yes i play on seige and would not currently support another (classic) shard.Fix what we got before adding more dead weight.

Not having a go, but to switch your argument around, would you be happy if Siege was reverted to pre-AoS times and made "classic"? Would you welcome potential growth of the shard through such changes?

If you like the current item-dependency of the game, then I understand and appreciate your answer will be "no". There's nothing wrong with such an opinion, you like what you like.

I think you've probably misinterpreted the sense of feeling from those who've contributed in this thread, where all are agreed, that post-AoS era gaming doesn't appeal to us, this is the heart of the matter, thus with it being included in Siege, that doesn't appeal to us either.

For myself, had they avoided implementing AoS content and were it not for my poor connection to Siege, it's probably where I would have ended up, of all the current shards available. The restrictions of one character, skill gains, amongst other issues, are actually areas which Siege players support changes to, which in effect, prevent many from venturing there. Ultimately it's perhaps the restrictive nature of areas of the Siege ruleset that's it's biggest flaw.

I don't believe there's any animosity on our part (supporters of "classic" UO) towards Siege players. There's no way to tell if potential "classic" shards would pull players from Siege, further reducing an already small population, at this stage.

I always believe it's a shame they introducing AoS and all the following changes to Siege, when it could have been maintained as the classic option. There's no way of knowing how well the population level would have been maintained, but I certainly do think a lot more players would have had more characters both there and on the production shards.

One thing you can't knock, is the strong sense of community on Siege, sadly diminishing though it is. Hopefully we can all get the solution we're looking for. The changes suggested, which are supported by Siege players and those who want to try Siege, by many members on these forums. Likewise, those of us who clearly would like some form of "classic" option.

I think the two can benefit and be beneficial to the greater good of UO in the long term.

 

[Llewen]

Darkfall = dying. Warhammer and Age of Conan = massive initial subs now dead.

This is proof of the wolves and sheep theory. Few now will pay to be a sheep.

Everyone agrees EA UO is dying. When you cater to a small minority, the majority will gradually leave, like it has. If EA had implemented PvE only and PvP only shards, EA UO would now be thriving.

Good lord, where to start?

First off, everything is dying. Everyone is dying. The earth is dying. The solar system is dying. The galaxy is dying. The entire universe is dying. And they all have been since the day they came into existence. Your deliciously apocalyptic statements are true, but completely pointless.

Second, you have proof of nothing. Neither you, nor anyone else in this thread has offered proof of anything, in spite of the fact that an awful lot categorical statements have been made.

Third, you speak for yourself, and no one else. "Everyone" certainly doesn't agree with your apocalyptic claptrap. I know I don't. You might want to consider doing some thinking before you hit the old submit button...

 

[Shakkar]

Alright first off Seige perilous was before any Tram, second it has progressed with new content. A classic shard would be pre T2A it would have to have a more balanced system then was in place at that time in UO's life. It wil have to get NO NEW CONTENT to ever stay CLASSIC.
My point is clearly that day in and day out said and done that Type of shard would never float with 10 year veterans playing there only.Do you see my point? No new content ever and it would have to be seperate from all production shards. Do you want to live on that island called classic alone?
Second Do I like the current item system? Sure why not, I had to live with skills being 120 not 100 so yes, I like current system of Items.Its called Progression something we all need to survive.OO but a classic shard could never progress EVER.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Even then, a blue healing a red was a rare occurance.

No, not on Atlantic it wasn't. The rare occurance on Atlantic in those days was seeing red PKs that were NOT accompanied by blue healers and blockers.

I don't know about the shards you were on, but I can tell you...on Atlantic there were as many blue PKs and thief-PKs as there were red PKs. Now, this changed in the months leading up to UO:R, but during the launch era, and through T2A until the last months, Atlantic was FULL of PKs of all varieties. This notion that PKs were 'rare' or 'generally not a problem' is B.S.

That might have been the case on the server you played on, but it wasn't the case on Atlantic.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Do I like the current item system? Sure why not, I had to live with skills being 120 not 100 so yes, I like current system of Items.

Awesome! Great for you!

Go enjoy the 26 shards you can choose from and stop worrying about the 1 that we are asking for.

 

[Ray_]

Pots looked down upon ?

In T2A if I fought against a pvper (which is pretty much the only people I murdered, untalkative pvpers who would think they could get me) and there was no pots in that loot... I'd be baffled.

You only read half of that sentence, I think. Pots were looked down upon in 1v1 fights and duels. because they could extend fights indefinitely. Once someone popped a pot, it meant they "lost" without actually dying. Make sense?

 

[Shakkar]

Do I like the current item system? Sure why not, I had to live with skills being 120 not 100 so yes, I like current system of Items.

Awesome! Great for you!

Go enjoy the 26 shards you can choose from and stop worrying about the 1 that we are asking for.

Ha Ha When You Talk Openly about taking resources from already existing shards I am concerned, If this can be done with NO MEMBER of develorment team inserting man hours to perform ;or No EXTRA SERVER SPACE NEEDED. Then i am in make it pre T2A with a public gate system that works from Clocks and in game time like it used to and I'm in. Saddly it wo'nt happen. So as such I stand Opposed and I will play where I want thank You.
Thanks and Have a Nice Day.

 

[phantus]

Even then, a blue healing a red was a rare occurance.

No, not on Atlantic it wasn't. The rare occurance on Atlantic in those days was seeing red PKs that were NOT accompanied by blue healers and blockers.

I don't know about the shards you were on, but I can tell you...on Atlantic there were as many blue PKs and thief-PKs as there were red PKs. Now, this changed in the months leading up to UO:R, but during the launch era, and through T2A until the last months, Atlantic was FULL of PKs of all varieties. This notion that PKs were 'rare' or 'generally not a problem' is B.S.

That might have been the case on the server you played on, but it wasn't the case on Atlantic.

...or Great Lakes....or Chessy...

 

[Ray_]

And someone said that my posts were one sided...

rolleyes:

PKs were never my mains. I played a blue mage named RayAlton on LS in guild C*G for years. My PKs were just fun, challenging diversions when O/C or guild wars weren't active.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

If this can be done with NO MEMBER of develorment team inserting man hours to perform ;or No EXTRA SERVER SPACE NEEDED. Then i am in make it pre T2A with a public gate system that works from Clocks and in game time like it used to and I'm in. Saddly it wo'nt happen. So as such I stand Opposed and I will play where I want thank You.

So stand opposed all you want. Last I checked I pay just as much for my subscriptions as you do ... so your needs and desires mean no more or less than mine. The only difference is, the devs have already wasted countless man hours and "resources" catering to people like you. Now we (Classic Shard fans) are asking for one shard, and people like you scream bloody murder?

I get so sick of self-righteous people complaining about how many "resources" it will "take away" from the current game to develop a Classic Shard. You have received the benefits of these resources since May 4th, 2000...none of us Classic Fans asked for:

- Trammel
- AoS
- Todd McFarlane crap
- Samurai crap
- Elf crap
- Gargolyes crap
- 3 failed clients

If you want to discuss resources being wasted...take a long look at the list above. All that the current use of resources has done is to cause people to quit the game. Look at subscriptions now vs. when AoS launched.

And I welcome you to play where to want...that is the entire point YOU have that option...WE don't.

 

[Ray_]

Now don't get me wrong here I'm not saying a classic shard needs runics, but when they were released at the time crafters were down to doing mostly repairs, there was simply too much magic items in the system

That's because there were tons of places to sit and farm for hours with no risk of being killed by either PKs or mobs. Mobs simply don't pose a threat to experienced players looking to farm, and at that point there were like 3 or 4 landmasses with no PKing. Players were spread out too thin and could farm until their fingers bled.

 

[Evlar]

Alright first off Seige perilous was before any Tram, second it has progressed with new content. A classic shard would be pre T2A it would have to have a more balanced system then was in place at that time in UO's life. It wil have to get NO NEW CONTENT to ever stay CLASSIC.
My point is clearly that day in and day out said and done that Type of shard would never float with 10 year veterans playing there only.Do you see my point? No new content ever and it would have to be seperate from all production shards. Do you want to live on that island called classic alone?
Second Do I like the current item system? Sure why not, I had to live with skills being 120 not 100 so yes, I like current system of Items.Its called Progression something we all need to survive.OO but a classic shard could never progress EVER.

rolleyes:

You seem to have missed the entire point of all the things we're asking for.

Your only "point" is to suggest that the shard would only attract veteran players. That may be the case, but that might be a mixture of players from other shards, who just might like playing a "classic" version as their main or second shard. It may also result in "veterans" who left UO because of the changes you seem to enjoy, returning to the game.

The question of "progress" is very much open to debate. Would you call failed or unfinished clients progress? Would you call obsolescent skills and items progress, every time new and "progressive" lands, skills and items are added? Would you call a declining player base progress? Would you call the minuscule population currently playing Siege progress?

I'm not having a go at the Siege populace in the slightest there. The majority of players want to see changes there too. Some claim that it is a failed shard. It only failed because it arguably should have been the classic shard many have craved since AoS, plus it has flawed and poorly implemented systems, along with aspects many players find simply too restrictive - such as one character only, or the skill gain system.

I really do hope there's room for both Siege and "classic". I really do hope the Siege players get the changes and attention they deserve and have been asking for, for far too long. Our argument and request is a little different, but no less valid. We as players, have no classic "home" to call our own. We are all (or have been) paying subscribers no less than anyone else over the years. I think it's only fair that our voice is heard with equal importance.

As for no new content, you've again missed the points that have been discussed. The debate here isn't just about one pre-set "classic" server approach, but how to implement it, how to adapt it to encourage players to try it, how to get it to potentially evolve it into the version of UO that could have been, had things like Trammel or AoS item dependency, not spoiled the game we loved.

If you understood anything at all about the history of the game and it's "progress", you would also be aware that much of the changes that have come, have been more to do with increased competition from other games, along with developer pressure to emulate aspects of those games within UO. If you're happy to play a game that's leeched ideas from other games and genres, fine. We however, prefer the simplicity of the classic era that drew us into a much more immersive style of gameplay and community.

In future, if you want to make valid points, it might be worth reading through the threads you're commenting in, plus knowing a little more of the subject matter at hand.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Excellent post Elvar.

You have more patience with people like this than I do.

 

[Ray_]

Why make it hard? Make it where blues cant heal, buff, rez reds?

Works for me!

You gotta be kidding me.

EA, these are NOT the people you want designing this shard if you want ex-players to ever give you money again.

 

[Shakkar]

my point is that you would not make any veterans from this shard they would not stay. and I am only playing the Devils advocate. Do not personally try to atack my understanding of anything it would be presumptuous and wrong. for you do not know me.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

You gotta be kidding me.

EA, these are NOT the people you want designing this shard if you want ex-players to ever give you money again.

I completely disagree here. If EA only entices former PKs back to the shard, it will close down or become 'Trammelized' almost immediately after launch.

Were you not around after UO:R? Did you not see what they did the last time PK'ing was out of control?

There are a handful of posters in this thread, and I am not saying this as an insult, that want a completely risk-free, no challenge, no consequence, wide-open red friendly shard.

These people would be playing that shard alone.

 

[Evlar]

Excellent post Elvar.

You have more patience with people like this than I do.

...though it is wearing a bit thin now.

my point is that you would not make any veterans from this shard they would not stay.

How do you know they would not stay? There would be no way of knowing, unless a classic shard actually came around. All we can go on at this stage, is what we read on forums such as this and the "word of mouth" that seems to be doing the rounds within other games. The only solid information regarding the potential populace of a classic server, is to look at the free servers which are based upon the era we've discussed and the numbers of people playing them. You could argue that even if a tenth of those playing the classic era free shards, came to an official shard, it would be very successful. All speculation nonetheless at this point.

and I am only playing the Devils advocate. Do not personally try to atack my understanding of anything it would be presumptuous and wrong. for you do not know me.

That as may be, but to suddenly wade in on the debate in the manner you did, was rather inflammatory to say the least. You're posts gave the impression that you've not bothered to read any of the debate that's occurred, prior to your arrival.

The comments you've made since your first post, all seem to suggest that you're understandably concerned, about potential developer time. Time you feel might be lost working on Siege where you say you play. Time lost working on aspects of the game you enjoy. Believe it or not, many of us are in fact on the same page, more or less. We obviously want to see a classic shard, but at the same time, we want as little impact on what you already have and are enjoying. You have your home and comforts, we simply want those too.

This seems to be the single biggest opposing argument against a classic shard. That people are concerned it would pull too many resources away from the production shards or Siege.

As for making assumptions regarding your manner of posting, they are just that. If you can't take constructive criticism for what it is, or offer constructive criticism that makes sense (without being taken out of context), you need to make your points clearer and more objective in their context.

There's two sides to every debate and good debates show understanding on both sides. Don't take things personally. It's an internet forum

 

[Shakkar]

Excellent post Elvar.

You have more patience with people like this than I do.

...though it is wearing a bit thin now.

my point is that you would not make any veterans from this shard they would not stay.

How do you know they would not stay? There would be no way of knowing, unless a classic shard actually came around. All we can go on at this stage, is what we read on forums such as this and the "word of mouth" that seems to be doing the rounds within other games. The only solid information regarding the potential populace of a classic server, is to look at the free servers which are based upon the era we've discussed and the numbers of people playing them. You could argue that even if a tenth of those playing the classic era free shards, came to an official shard, it would be very successful. All speculation nonetheless at this point.

and I am only playing the Devils advocate. Do not personally try to atack my understanding of anything it would be presumptuous and wrong. for you do not know me.

That as may be, but to suddenly wade in on the debate in the manner you did, was rather inflammatory to say the least. You're posts gave the impression that you've not bothered to read any of the debate that's occurred, prior to your arrival.

The comments you've made since your first post, all seem to suggest that you're understandably concerned, about potential developer time. Time you feel might be lost working on Siege where you say you play. Time lost working on aspects of the game you enjoy. Believe it or not, many of us are in fact on the same page, more or less. We obviously want to see a classic shard, but at the same time, we want as little impact on what you already have and are enjoying. You have your home and comforts, we simply want those too.

This seems to be the single biggest opposing argument against a classic shard. That people are concerned it would pull too many resources away from the production shards or Siege.

As for making assumptions regarding your manner of posting, they are just that. If you can't take constructive criticism for what it is, or offer constructive criticism that makes sense (without being taken out of context), you need to make your points clearer and more objective in their context.

There's two sides to every debate and good debates show understanding on both sides. Don't take things personally. It's an internet forum

The smiley at the end is a nice touch Sounds like my concerns are interputed well so i wo'nt repeat. but,if you also hear me I am for a pre T2a Shard. And this time around make the first race Orcs thats about all I have to say on the issue. Not meaning to interupt your posts. Bye.

 

[Evlar]

The smiley at the end is a nice touch Sounds like my concerns are interputed well so i wo'nt repeat. but,if you also hear me I am for a pre T2a Shard. And this time around make the first race Orcs thats about all I have to say on the issue. Not meaning to interupt your posts. Bye.

Firstly, you're not interrupting at all. All are welcome to share their views. Some of those views may be a little cloudy sometimes, or taken out of context, or simply not well made, but the whole points of this thread is for people to get those views and suggestions across, be they for or against.

Simply put, if you're for a classic shard, you need to share what you miss, what you enjoyed, what you would like to see, what problems during that era you would hope to see resolved.

If you're against the idea, you need to show what your concerns are, why you think it's a bad idea, without the need to simply be objective offhand.

It's only with reasoned debate that the developers will get any objective information on which to make any sort of decision.

As for the orcs... well, if we could turn back the clocks and make certain changes, then of any races to be added, orcs would have been my first choice too. I have many fond memories of those orcish role-players and guilds. You would think given the numbers of "orcish" players around in those days, the devs at the time might have twigged that making them a playable race first, would have met with a good response.

Either way, if a classic shard does happen, then I think there's still plenty of scope for it to "progress" longer term. It too can evolve, so long as the heart and soul, doesn't change. That is, so item dependency never takes presidency over skill, challenging gameplay, interaction and community.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

. And this time around make the first race Orcs thats about all I have to say on the issue. Not meaning to interupt your posts. Bye.

Why would they need to make a race of orcs? I guess most people don't remember the Shadowclan Orcs and the Blackrock CLan of orcs. Players who roleplayed orcs. Complete with Ringmail Tunic, Axe and Orc helm. Those were fun fights. Wonder where I put my shinies....

It was groups like that as well as the communities and guilds that sprung up that helped make the UO experience so memorable. I just pray that a classic shard could call back most of those people who moved to other games.

In other words, we don't need any races, you could be any race you wanted to be with a little work. Elves, Gargoyles, Ninja's, Samurai's etc...all took a little bit of the creativity that used to thrive in UO.

 

[Longest Journey]

No, not on Atlantic it wasn't. The rare occurance on Atlantic in those days was seeing red PKs that were NOT accompanied by blue healers and blockers.

I don't know about the shards you were on, but I can tell you...on Atlantic there were as many blue PKs and thief-PKs as there were red PKs. Now, this changed in the months leading up to UO:R, but during the launch era, and through T2A until the last months, Atlantic was FULL of PKs of all varieties. This notion that PKs were 'rare' or 'generally not a problem' is B.S.

That might have been the case on the server you played on, but it wasn't the case on Atlantic.

Im sorry atlantic was such a nightmare for you and you got PK'd. Personally, when I played Atlantic, I never had much of a problem with PKs, blue or otherwise. Sure, I ran into them once in a while. Maybe I was lucky, who knows. My chessapeake characters were rarely PK'd.

My mains on Catskills had the smoothest run. Maybe you should have came over to Cats. We had a great RP population and reds werent a serious threat or problem.

As for blues healing reds, when I did see it happen, it was because the red was in the same guild as the blue. You didnt take a penalty for healing a red guildmate. But I do remember clearly that if a blue who was not guilded to a red healed them, they got flagged grey. Same applies if a blue heals a non guilded grey, they get flagged grey.

I once tried to rez a ghost in Nujelm and forgot to check to see if he was grey or red. I was killed by the guards and stuck there with him. I had to wait for my criminal count to go away before waiting around the bank for an hour and a half for someone to recall in and rez me.

So, Im pretty sure healing reds and greys carried a penalty.

I understand what you've been saying Morgana. Going grey isnt enough. I agree that if someone heals a red while they are in the process of attacking someone, the blue healer should take a murder count as an accessory should the red manage to kill the person, regardless if they are in the same guild or not.

Im sorry atlantic had red problems, but it wasnt the same case across the board. You and your guild should have went to Catskills, it was, aparently, one of the balanced servers.

 

[Llewen]

Im sorry atlantic was such a nightmare for you and you got PK'd. Personally, when I played Atlantic, I never had much of a problem with PKs, blue or otherwise. Sure, I ran into them once in a while. Maybe I was lucky, who knows. My chessapeake characters were rarely PK'd.

I'm not adding much to the debate on this issue either way, other than to say, I got pk'd all the time. I wasn't a power gamer, I didn't really know what I was doing, and most of that time I was playing on dialup, and I constantly got butchered, and I know I wasn't the only one who had that experience.

I think anyone who thinks that pk'ing wasn't a huge part of the game back then is suffering from selective memory. This was on two different servers, Hokuto and Chessy, and I remember the bodies piled up outside the protected area in the pass west of Britain.

I know from various conversations, and from my own personal experience, that often a few pk's would go on a rampage moving from dungeon to dungeon, and the entire staff of GM's for that shard would be tied up with pages about those two or three pk's for the next few hours.

I don't think the same thing will happen on a classic shard though. There will be lots of pk'ing, but it won't be the same as it was back then. Even the sheep are a lot more well informed about the games they play than most of us were back then, and there are many more resources available to all of us.

Not only that but most of us have computers and connections that will allow us to move at maximum speed without the use of cheats, and our computers are all much more capable of handling everything the client can throw at it than many of the computers by us sheep back in the day.

We are all much more sophisticated and informed when it comes to our gaming, and specifically when it comes to MMO's than most of us were back then, and while there will certainly be dominant pk's, they won't be dominant in the same way they were back then. I don't think pk'ing will be as big an issue as some think it will be, any more than it is now on Siege.