Classic shard.

[Kotu Farland]

What do you think will happen when all development is focused on the Classic shard, and there is no or minimal new content on the production shards for 2 years?

Why should the development team focus on new content?

All content and publish`s since AOS have resulted in a severe decline in playerbase. Every month of every year there are less and less players subscribing.

It is obvious this new content has done nothing but drive players away from UO.

A classic server is the only hope UO has left, otherwise the game will be shut down.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Actually, there is always subjectivity involving the sale price of things to another person. However, that is not the case when dealing with the internal value assigned to an item by the game itself.

There is an average price, doesn't mean you won't make more or less but the average price for ingots at the time on Atlantic at least, was 6 gp. Anyways not even important to the main point.

Intentions aside, in most circumstances, killing a miner/lumberjack/graveyard newbie will yield far less than killing a dungeon farmer. By discouraging people from targeting players that are generally easier to kill, but yield less profit, at least some of the PKs will either stop PKing altogether or turn to proper PKing. Sure, there will still be instances where killing miners (specifically miners) with a lot of ingots on then can potentially yield a greater value, but those instances are not going to be the sweeping majority.

You cannot be this obtuse, I'm not talking about who is worth more in terms of killing, it doesn't matter. You are so hung up on issues decided by the individual player that you cannot see what I am actually saying to you.

I'm saying your intentions don't matter, the reason you kill someone else in game doesn't matter, who is worth more if you want to play the subjectivity card doesn't matter, they are issues left up to the individual pk in question.

The issue is simple, if you pk your a pk, period end of story, I don't care if you are a griefer, a roleplayer, a blue having an occasional foray into the world of pking it simply does not matter you made a decision to attack and kill another player so you face the consequences, talk to Dr Phil if you need to discuss your reasons for it.

The players getting pkd don't care what motivates you, thus it makes no sense to even talk about designing a system that is selective. Not to mention you can't do it, show me a system that does it a good system that wouldn't be harder to implement then things that have already been suggested, my money is on you not being able to come up with it.

Sure you can, the internal values of practically all items that can be acquired in-game fall way short of the value of straight gold. But, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.

Your still on this kick about items, I don't even know where you are in this discussion. I'm talking about the risks of pking, you are still going on and on about the subjectivity of items etc.

 

[Derium of ls]

Why should the development team focus on new content?

All content and publish`s since AOS have resulted in a severe decline in playerbase. Every month of every year there are less and less players subscribing.

It is obvious this new content has done nothing but drive players away from UO.

A classic server is the only hope UO has left, otherwise the game will be shut down.

/thread
/argument

well said sir

 

[Zodia]

OK WHERE IS IT?? SERIOUSLY? WHEN IS IT COMING? I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER.

Seems the only reason I keep my account open lately is waiting for the Classic Shard.

My birthday is coming soon. Can I haz classic shard? Please?

 

[Derium of ls]

I feel the same, I REALLY wanna head to brit graveyard to work up my skills!

 

[Arch Magus]

I will resubscribe the instant a Classic shard becomes available.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Wow, a lot of discussion since I went to bed. I like the idea of Exile. It keeps the PK's in the game without 100% locking them out of a character. I may have missed it, and my reading comprehension is sub-par right now because I haven't had my coffee, but how would a PK who was killed in the dungeons re-equip? If they were killed by a mob and their comrades didn't dry loot them, I can see it not being a problem, but if a group of anti's come in and kills them, eventually the dungeon will just become a turkey shoot. While deep down in the dark recesses of my heart I would get a little pleasure from that, it isn't right.

I also think that it should only be certain dungeons. Some of the "training" dungeons like Despise and Covetous should be exempt, but most defiantly Wrong (the anti-virtue of Justice) Destard (Anti-Honor) and Deciet (Honesty) at the very least should be exile dungeons.

I may have missed it, but what would be the requirements of getting exile? Would it be automatic upon death of a red with x amount of kills? How many kills would they have to have to make exile a viable choice?

Also, Cal, just in case you've got health conscious members on your team, I will add to mine and others offers of treats this: Fresh fruit and protein smoothies. We're making you an offer you can't refuse.....

 

[Guido_LS]

Why should the development team focus on new content?

All content and publish`s since AOS have resulted in a severe decline in playerbase. Every month of every year there are less and less players subscribing.

It is obvious this new content has done nothing but drive players away from UO.

A classic server is the only hope UO has left, otherwise the game will be shut down.

Could it be because the game in many ways is simply old and dated, and there are other options out there, including multiple *free* options, many of which are continually shoved at us by Stratics? Nah, couldn't be....

The problem is, EA/Origin tried to enter a realm that they had no business in - the Diablo/itemized gaming world. It was tantamount to sending a squad of 4 circus midgets in to play a basketball game against the *insert favorite team name here*... it had a novelty value for a short time, but ultimately, it's turned out to be a *personal opinion* bad idea. They are still trying to compete in a market where even the most base of console games has better graphics and gameplay, while still offering more than what UO offers.

Do I think a classic style server will be the savior of UO? No - not a chance at all. I think it will keep the game on life support a bit longer, and will be a good shot for many of us to go out the same way we came in. But I would personally be shocked and amazed if 2015 saw an EA operated UO server. 2012 might even be pushing it.

As for why should the dev team keep focusing on new content? Simple answer - people are still paying for it, and of course, I'm sure they like the fact that they are gainfully employed...

 

[Kaivan]

I'm saying your intentions don't matter, the reason you kill someone else in game doesn't matter, who is worth more if you want to play the subjectivity card doesn't matter, they are issues left up to the individual pk in question.

That's exactly the problem, saying that "the intentions don't matter, I got PK'd" is ridiculous. Players should be able to expect, within reason, whether they will be attacked by a PK or not.

For example, a player who is farming at the lich lord room shouldn't be surprised when a PK comes in and attacks them. That should be an expected result because you represent a high yield kill. However, the random newbie at the Yew graveyard shouldn't need to high tail it and run at the first sign of a red name, because he isn't worth the PK's time. The same is true in resource gathering as well. The value of what you carry (in 99% of cases) should be of little interest to a PK because he can get better results elsewhere.

As of right now, there is no differentiation between the two scenarios, and rectifying the second scenario is what needs to be done. The first scenario is a non-issue because the PK represents the majority risk in that scenario. The second scenario is a very low-reward scenario, and should carry a low risk with it as well.

The only way to objectively deal with this issue is to use some method of gauging the gold value of a player to the PK, which is the only legitimate reason for killing a player (no, the psychotic killer pack-rat role player is not an excuse). Given that, the most direct method of achieving gauging is by using the in-game values for items.

I really don't know how much more clear I can be about this. Saying that "PKers ruin my day" is hardly an excuse, especially when you (and by you I mean the victim) are doing something that carries a significant reward for being successful. In fact, you should expect that players will attack and kill you in those instances because you have something highly desirable.

Anyway Dakkon, we're going to go around in circles about this all day and night. The reality is that you hold the opinion that regardless of who, how, where, when, and why a player was PK'd, the end result is a player who had their experience ruined and the PK should pay accordingly. While I am of the opinion that a player should think about their circumstances and expect hostility based on what they are doing and not act surprised and hurt when they are killed doing something very lucrative, yet be relatively comfortable when doing something very low yield.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

No, this is not intended as a system to deal with warring parties. This is a system designed to curb PKing in the areas that PKing is done with out of game intentions in mind (griefing). Any war system would have no effect on this sort of problem at all.

This sort of "problem" which is the problem of problems. The Ultima.

Is that you have to understand the need for true war to happen again, or your classic server will never materialise.

Without classic, you don't get classic ; so you must start at classic. This is very basic philosophy I concur, and most people do not seem to grasp it. I don't mean to say that you don't grasp it however... I don't fully grasp it, but "it" does... and it's clear "it" wont speak to anyone else than me right now. Yes this is part of my roleplay, Xandria, or the wisp... lives !

And I think you are right morgana, this is all very nostalgic to me, something isn't right and I doubt we are heading in the right direction if this is to form a concensus.

Ultima Online is not a game, it's a sandbox, it must be ultima in nature.

Hey you guys at EA... has he only sold you the image so you can make money, or you'll make man of yourselves and produce something genuine ?

I hope and would be sweetly pleased.

War and adversity in the purest sense is necessary for the spirit of the avatar to ascend. Please settle over this, it is a MINOR issue.

The major issue is that people not hack, and my system, whilst it prevents people from hacking at all without any type of spying ; it also eliminates the need for hacking.

The only thing it does not... oh no again I'd be saying it by reverse logic. It's not for sale sorry.

Namase !

P.S.-

The only way to objectively deal with this issue is to use some method of gauging the gold value of a player to the PK, which is the only legitimate reason for killing a player (no, the psychotic killer pack-rat role player is not an excuse). Given that, the most direct method of achieving gauging is by using the in-game values for items.

I really don't know how much more clear I can be about this. Saying that "PKers ruin my day" is hardly an excuse, especially when you (and by you I mean the victim) are doing something that carries a significant reward for being successful. In fact, you should expect that players will attack and kill you in those instances because you have something highly desirable.

Thats said like an old timer. Fair enough !

 

[HD2300]

Why should the development team focus on new content?

All content and publish`s since AOS have resulted in a severe decline in playerbase. Every month of every year there are less and less players subscribing.

It is obvious this new content has done nothing but drive players away from UO.

A classic server is the only hope UO has left, otherwise the game will be shut down.

New content = Events, Monsters, Pets, and new systems like Arenas, which exist on freeshards.

There was a 9 month period where there was no new content, starting a couple of months before the SA client was launched. In that period, production shards lost a significant number of subscribers. That was the point where things went downhill, after which we got systems like randomised resources.

I agree there are less and less subscribers, but this is due to bad reward systems, not enough new content and production Trammel+Fel shards are not the same as only Trammel shards and only Fel shards. There should have been a split into separate shards.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

The guardian does nothing randomly, Avatar !!!

 

[NorCal]

The Second Age era w/ necessary bug and glitch fixes
-Britannia and the Lost Lands
-Stat loss and long term murder counts for reds (stat loss on resurrection)
-T2A Item system (Vanq/Ruin magic weapons, Invul/hardening magic armor, magic wands staves, jewelery, boots, capes, etc.)
-T2A skill and stat caps (700.0 skill point pool, 225 stat point pool)
-T2A magic system
-Stat and skill controls (IE ability to set skills/stats to raise, lower and lock)
-Chaos and Order Guilds with proper fixes (lord/lady requisites removed)
-Guild Stones
-more Stackable items (IE Potions)
-**Crafting Upgrades (See below)
-T2A housing and rule sets
-Server Birth Rares

**Crafting upgrades are as follows:

-Tailors will be able to make bone armor as well as repair it along with leather armor

-Bow crafters will be able to repair bows

-Carpenters will be able to craft all staff weapons as well as clubs and repair them along with wooden shields

-potential addition of Ilshenar later on.


-No runic tools
-No BoDs
-No character transfers, to or from classic server(s)
-No ethereal mounts
-No power scrolls
-No AOS content, period
-No Trammel
-No Malas
-No Tokuno
-No Mondain's Legacy Content
-No Stygian Abyss Content
-No ELVES
-No Gargoyles
-No control slots for tamers or mages (still under discussion it will either be bonding with slots or unlimited slots)
-No repair contracts
-No bless deeds or blessed items
-No factions
-No custom housing

That is a classic shard. The last few pages here are an example why you will never get a classic shard. Disagreeing about thieves and PK rules. Trammies won't populate a classic shard alone. Definately not for long. Not without new content, pixels or whatever, which would make it not a classic shard eventually. What made UO great was community and choice. Statloss on res is enough to stop rampant PKing. IMO that should be up to the community. If your upset at PKs kill them. Some of the most lasting relatioship I made in UO were made fighting off a PK with a random person that becomes a friend because of that event. Someone you might have never talked to just running a dungeon for gold. Later as a PK I remember always having to be on the move because Anti-PKs would come if you stay in one place to long. Form bonds play with friends, its an MMO if all you want to do is solo and get ganked oh well. That's what made UO great.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Who are you ?

 

[Derium of ls]

Your full of double whopper with cheese.

You've never played on that shard, because you told me so when I pm'ed you.

And the other poster is correct, that there is a lot more than pvp there.

Pk'ers are few and blues out number them a lot.

Rampant pks are a myth, and never were as bad as some your fantasies describe.

rampant Pks did happen... but in certain spots and guild cities that I remember. as a mule I learned to travel differently and find new places to do my mining. you will ALWAYS run into a PK time to time no matter where you are. but I never had an issue with it being out of hand so long as I did my part to attempt to avoid it.

 

[NorCal]

^^ Someone that would play a classic shard, but left UO about 5-6 years ago. The type of player that you would need if you want a classic shard. It makes no sense to create a classic shard if all if does is moves current players around. I enjoyed UO so much I sometimes lurk around here never posting.

If you want a classic shard it has to bring players back. The more you change it from classic UO the less attractive it will be.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I want nothing but I'll be happy if it happens ^^

 

[Evlar]

As a business you can either target 10% of the market or you can target 90% of the market. Targetting niches in MMORPGs doesnt work, just look at Darkfall, AoC, WAR and Siege...

Afraid I have to counter that. Although I can't be bothered to find the detailed industry reports, analysis, developer and software company comments, etc (that's what google is for), to prove how incorrect your statement is.

The biggest problem factor in the current MMO market for many developers, is the WoW "phenomena". WoW retains such a disproportionately huge market share of the MMO market, that any attempt to compete directly with it, would cost millions upon millions of developer dollars to get anywhere close. In short, huge investment, huge risk, which very few companies are prepared to risk, especially given the current climate.

This is entirely why, on the whole, the majority of developers are trying to find a suitable niche market, which they can successfully establish and maintain, at steady and profitable levels.

Unless EA hand Mythic a bottomless pit of finances to throw at the game, it will always be a niche product. Seeing as that's never likely to happen, not just with UO, but countless other MMO's out there, either live, or in production, the niche market is always going to be where most games head for, simply because they cannot and will not try to take on the behemoth that WoW has become.

So, making quotes of "as a business", please remember that the gaming/software industry is very much its own entity. Nobody can guess what the next big thing will be, not even the industry "experts". Niche markets are the safest option for pretty much all developers at the moment. As such, this is entirely why you have such a huge range of options as a consumer, as to what game you want to play.

The biggest "failures" in the industry are the products which aren't finished and polished properly prior to release, aren't supported as well as they could be, or the concept is simply flawed from the beginning. In some aspects, UO fits into many of these categories. The unique difference for UO however, has always been the vast variety of possibilities in the game, it's sandbox nature, it was one of the first major MMORPGS and not least, the loyalty of the player base.

This to my mind, is entirely why the main target audience "niche" for UO and any potential classic shard option, is to attract former subscribers back. It's pretty obvious that the number of former subscribers, far outweighs the number of current subscribers. So in a business sense, it would be more appropriate to use that niche of players as the platform, upon which to build for the future of UO, in all directions. Both production shards and classic shards can prosper. Sadly, I'm not so sure about the Siege concept, unless there's drastic changes to the fatally flawed systems in place there, that even regular Siege players are asking to change. It was flawed in principal from the start, then AoS served little more than to compound those flaws, unfortunately.

So, to surmise my main point of response, niche markets for MMORPG developers, are the only market they can and will aim for. Nobody at the moment, can or will compete with WoW, given the huge investment and promotion that would be required.

 

[SDragor]

Rampant pks are a myth, and never were as bad as some your fantasies describe.

I can just call this denial.

But why would you deny the fact that in the first 2 years UO was haunted by pks killing everybody who they came across, bye blue looters who trapped you and waited for monsters to kill you so they could grab your belongings, by people who placed trapped boxes to kill and loot innocent newbies, by pk guilds that raided all the interesting dungeons over and over again?

you deny those facts, because they prove that a classic shard will be a total failure, unless you invent some mechanics that prevent mindless mass murdering. what you don't get is that the more you deny the more certain your idea will fail.

the pks who played highwaymen and bandits to demand tribute from someone crossing a bridge in the wilderness and leave them unharmed when they payed were exceptions, one out of 1000. most pks were determined to murder the weak, the unexperienced, the crafters, the adventurers over and over again.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

The streets were deserted though the police were alerted,
They considered the phone call a hoax.
Furtively glancing then jauntily prancing
The youth caught the guards unaware.

Slipping between them he ought to have seen then
The eyes and their owner so near.
With torch shining bright he strode on in the night
Till he came to the room with the safe.

"Hello son, I hope you're having fun."
"You've got it wrong Sir, I'm only the cleaner."
With that he fired, the other saying as he died,
"You've done me wrong," it's the same old song forever.

Robbery, assault and battery,
The felon and his felony.
Robbery, assault and battery,
The felon and his felony.

Picked up the diamonds and bundles of fivers
He pushed them well down in his sack.
But the alarm had been sounded, he was completely surrounded
But he had some more tricks up his sleeve.

"Come outside with your hands held high."
"You'll not get me alive Sir, I promise you that Sir."
With that he fired, the other saying as he died
"You've done me wrong," it's the same old song forever.

Robbery, assault and battery,
The felon and his felony.
Robbery, assault and battery,
The felon and his felony.

"He's leaving via the roof, the *******'s got away.
God always fights on the side of the bad man."

"I've got clean away but I'll be back some day,
Just the combination will have changed.
Some day they'll catch me, to a chain they'll attach me,
Until that day I'll ride the old crime wave.

If they try to hold me for trial
I'll stay out of jail by paying my bail
And after I'll go to the court of appeal saying
"You've done me wrong," it's the same old song forever."

Done me wrong - same old song - done me wrong.

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[Antonio Cataneo]

...

I think that Trammel came for the "beans" you are talking too. It's not about failing, i remember a fairly enjoyable game even when "griefing" was so rampant, even for my noob friends going to shame hunting for Earth Elementals. The problems was that they needed to raise subscription. Nowdays, the need of the Dev team are different, i think. Ok, surely more money = more successs at work = profit but we are talking about a server that would not steal any of the current subscribers on production shards, it would only bring many old players back and the players that missed the era .

I personally don't think that such a server would only appeal for months. The old UO end-game was the community. If the community is nice, if friendship / rivalry are made, the server goes on. For sure , some people will quit, some will join, but i don't think that this would be only a nostalgia walk for old saddened vets like me. I personally would play till the server termination, in so many years i still didn't find something so funny.
The strenght of ultima was total interaction between players , and not soulless farming night and day like today. I spent a week in doom to drop some **** of the magi and felt like an *******. I just don't want that.


Morgana, i don't think that PK's and non pvpers can't coexist, as i dont think that a miner that gets pked thinks "AH THEY RUINED MY GAME". A miner that gets PK'ed should think "AH I SHALL PREPARE MYSELF FOR WHEN THE ****ER RETURNS!!" . Back in the day being a mule was harsh because you needed skills to defend yourself, and i think a player must be cool with it. Nowdays you even have automap, i would think of an automap channel where people can , for example, ask for help while mining and a blue hitsquad would show up defending.

The social experiment failed because the "law side" people called for the Devs help instead of helping themselves, organizing and such.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

That is a classic shard. The last few pages here are an example why you will never get a classic shard. Disagreeing about thieves and PK rules. Trammies won't populate a classic shard alone. Definately not for long. Not without new content, pixels or whatever, which would make it not a classic shard eventually. What made UO great was community and choice. Statloss on res is enough to stop rampant PKing. IMO that should be up to the community. If your upset at PKs kill them. Some of the most lasting relatioship I made in UO were made fighting off a PK with a random person that becomes a friend because of that event. Someone you might have never talked to just running a dungeon for gold. Later as a PK I remember always having to be on the move because Anti-PKs would come if you stay in one place to long. Form bonds play with friends, its an MMO if all you want to do is solo and get ganked oh well. That's what made UO great.

I love you! that's exactly my point

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

So, to surmise my main point of response, niche markets for MMORPG developers, are the only market they can and will aim for. Nobody at the moment, can or will compete with WoW, given the huge investment and promotion that would be required.

I think that , for the Devs, the strong point of a thing such opening classic shard(s) would be that they need no marketing on the contents . Uo , the old days, have been WIDELY talked in the last 12 years and such. I think it would interest A LOT of people , and get MANY new subscribers or old back, and then lose a part of them and stabilize. The opening of EA's classic shard would be published by every gaming site on the net, the spread would be huge and the cost would be much more lower than normal. EA can only make profit from classic servers imho

 

[hawkeye_pike]

The strenght of ultima was total interaction between players , and not soulless farming night and day like today. I spent a week in doom to drop some **** of the magi and felt like an *******. I just don't want that.

Yes, this is the biggest weakness of UO today. However, I think a classic shard will not be able to solve this, not with the PvP rules of early UO.

 

[HD2300]

This to my mind, is entirely why the main target audience "niche" for UO and any potential classic shard option, is to attract former subscribers back. It's pretty obvious that the number of former subscribers, far outweighs the number of current subscribers. So in a business sense, it would be more appropriate to use that niche of players as the platform, upon which to build for the future of UO, in all directions.

The currently proposed Classic shard is targetting only a small subset (10%) of former subscribers. It makes far more sense to target the 100 000+ that quit because of griefing pre Trammel+Fel, and also 90% of former subscribers, non-PvPers. It is a no brainer, 20% of 234 000 is better than 20% of 26 000. That is why there should be an only Trammel shard and if EA goes ahead with developing a Classic shard, also a Classic only Trammel shard.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

The currently proposed Classic shard is targetting only a small subset (10%) of former subscribers. It makes far more sense to target the 100 000+ that quit because of griefing pre Trammel+Fel, and also 90% of former subscribers, non-PvPers. It is a no brainer, 20% of 234 000 is better than 20% of 26 000. That is why there should be an only Trammel shard and if EA goes ahead with developing a Classic shard, also a Classic only Trammel shard.

lol you can't just compare figures like this. You should keep in mind of the massive marketing campaign @ the uo:r stage, before that uo was less known , i remember the game being sold with magazines at the time of UO:R.
What is the point of a Trammel server if there are like 15 trammel servers already?

As i said, Hawkeye, people had 12 years to think about in game balance done by players, the gameplay would be different because of the more expert playerbase. Pking should be countered by organized blue people, and its the same for thieves and such.
I think that perma stat loss would do the trick,together with the people countermeasures.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

As i said, Hawkeye, people had 12 years to think about in game balance done by players, the gameplay would be different because of the more expert playerbase. Pking should be countered by organized blue people, and its the same for thieves and such.
I think that perma stat loss would do the trick,together with the people countermeasures.

Finally someone who seems to be able to discuss constructively!

What all this discussion lacks is some fresh ideas. To my opinion, a system where murder is retaliated with murder is not good enough. Below the line, one side will win, the other will lose. The side that loses will be annoyed and eventually leave. The losers in early UO were the "innocent" or "blues", and they left the game in large numbers. Why? Because the pk groups struck very efficiently. They recalled in, raided, vanished again. Before a group of skilled fighters was arranged for protection or retaliantion, the pks were long gone. There was no way to effectively counter them.

Also, I very much dislike any system that does not make a difference between an occasional thief/criminal and a mass murderer. This is just wrong. Mass murdering and ganking should have more severe consequences.

I doubt that permanent stat loss is a good idea, because it destroys a character. And why should someone who commited 1 crime be penalized equally to someone who commited 1000 murders?

As I said before, turning back time won't bring many players back. The way people play MMORPGs and what they expect from such a game has changed, as you so correctly said. Thus, we need new methods and mechanics to breathe back the community spirit into UO.

 

[HD2300]

What is the point of a Trammel server if there are like 15 trammel servers already?

An only consentual PvP "Trammel" server is not the same as a production shard. Production shards have both Trammel and Fel. In Production shards you still have wolves and sheep because the best rewards are in Fel. And because there are wolves and sheep, more and more sheep will not pay to play and will leave, although not as fast as in a non-consentual PvP shard like Siege or game like Darkfall or the proposed Classic shard.

So yes have a "Classic" shard, but also build current patch tram only shards and a tram only Classic shard, so that EA can keep the "Classic" shard and Siege operating.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

Finally someone who seems to be able to discuss constructively!

What all this discussion lacks is some fresh ideas. To my opinion, a system where murder is retaliated with murder is not good enough. Below the line, one side will win, the other will lose. The side that loses will be annoyed and eventually leave. The losers in early UO were the "innocent" or "blues", and they left the game in large numbers. Why? Because the pk groups struck very efficiently. They recalled in, raided, vanished again. Before a group of skilled fighters was arranged for protection or retaliantion, the pks were long gone. There was no way to effectively counter them.

Also, I very much dislike any system that does not make a difference between an occasional thief/criminal and a mass murderer. This is just wrong. Mass murdering and ganking should have more severe consequences.

I doubt that permanent stat loss is a good idea, because it destroys a character. And why should someone who commited 1 crime be penalized equally to someone who commited 1000 murders?

As I said before, turning back time won't bring many players back. The way people play MMORPGs and what they expect from such a game has changed, as you so correctly said. Thus, we need new methods and mechanics to breathe back the community spirit into UO.

It's True. As you said, the bad side in the old days was far more skilled and organized, innocents didn't tried to put some effort in preventing their crimes by themselves, instead they called for help to Dev's because "they were paying". I think that was a lame excuse even back to that day: if you don't agree the rules, don't play, no one is making you pay forcibly.
No one ever put a real effort in organizing vs griefers. As i said, with the new technologies like automap we can easily organize hitsquads that can intervene in matter of seconds in dungeons (i remember someone doing the 911 in europa shard, you call them in irc and they came to ress you everywhere , that was so cool!) , or guard posts in mining zones, police at banks with forensinc evaluation vs thieves and such. LOTS of fun!

Back in the day even i didn't know how to counter a tamer with 5 dragons, or how to surely survive a pk attack. Nowdays, i do, as a lot of people like me do.

I also see the reason of you saying we need a system to discern mass murderers from occasional ones. Well , we must find some kind of "retribuition" for the crimes that kicks your ass harder based on quantity. I think that the stat loss thing is quite a deterrent for mass murdering, if done correctly. How about:

1) the stat loss happens on resurrection, not death: you can just make kill fade away like the old times. It's HARD on the pk because the account is "busy" and you ARE PAYING for it. Indiscriminate murderer will be done only by skilled ones / that thinks the risk can be taken

2) stat loss quantity based on quantity of kills

then the dilemma is : permanent or temporary ?
if temporary the stat loss lenght can be based on the quantity of long term kills and quantity on the short terms one

if permanent, the numbers must be lower (for example, a whole point every 10 short term kills) for sure, or the char is trashed every time is resurrected.

This way the developers would be happy (if you are going to play a perma red you prolly have 2 subscriptions to continue playing while waiting for kills to fade) and pking would be serious businnes, not just a 90 magery fella jerking around.


I didn't see a discussion about thieving (my area of expertise rolleyes: ) , i may say that the old rules of perma grey were good enough, there are a lot of ways to defend yourself by thieves / bank thieves and such, and i believe many of the reader of this thread know them, and thieving was never an issue. I would be concerned about the housing system.
I would opt for the phase 2 of the housing , were houses were public (vendor ones) with lockable doors and private, were anyone can access at first (given that the door is opened/unlocked) and people are bannable by owner/co owner. This way housing wouldn't be the safe heaven bull**** they are today, ultima world is risky and exciting, and it's not about ammassing **** in your house, is INTERACTING WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

An only consentual PvP "Trammel" server is not the same as a production shard. Production shards have both Trammel and Fel. In Production shards you still have wolves and sheep because the best rewards are in Fel. And because there are wolves and sheep, more and more sheep will not pay to play and will leave, although not as fast as in a non-consentual PvP shard like Siege or game like Darkfall or the proposed Classic shard.

So yes have a "Classic" shard, but also build current patch tram only shards and a tram only Classic shard, so that EA can keep the "Classic" shard and Siege operating.

i don't think that a trammel only shard would appeal anyone. It's just like WoW, and it would FAIL HARD vs WoW which has better graphic and was MADE FROM THE BEGINNING with that intention . Ultima was made with the INTERACTION as his strong point. Old ultima failed because people were not ready.

Nowdays people tried several styles of gameplay and made their own conclusion. Loads of people think that the old ultima was the best, after all. So give us a server to play, i would pay 2 years in advance with no problem, as im sure i would play there A LOT.
If you like trammel gameplay there are a lot of games out there satisfing you needs. And i'm not trying to flame or insult you, i'm just stating my opinion.

This isn't about ammassing people on a server, it is about giving people a choice and attracting new subscribers. If a classic server is made, i'm sure that at the beginning everyone would try it, and after a while trammel-style players would go back to production, and the people that agree in non-consensual pvp (WHICH IS NOT THE CENTER OF SUCH A SHARD!) will just stay there and play.

I'm so sure it would be a success commercially speaking that, having the money, i would put my bet on it

 

[Eros]

I as a long time veteran of this game would definately be interested in playing on a classic shard. I miss playing UO before there was insurance. I miss being able to have a Chaos or Order guild where you were able to attack the opposing guild even in trammel. Also it was worth being a smith back then because you never ran out of work. For there wasnt insurance and alot of people always was in need of new crafted armor and weapons. Now, I think you would need atleast 2 trammel and felucca shards to accommodate the players. Plus you should be allowed to own a home on a classic shard even though you own one on a production shard. You should not be allowed to transfer from or to a classic shard. And also no advanced characters should be allowed. I dont believe this classic shard would bring new players to the game. But I do think that it would help keep the interest of current players. And especially the veteran players who have played UO back before AOS. UO if you want to keep your player base. I really do believe the need is great for a classic shard !

 

[Izzy MBC]

I know it's just modifying the old Classic shard even further, but it's an idea popping into mind to curb the PK Griefing issue.

What if such players, like Miners, or that Young Newbie in the Yew Graveyard, had the ability to recall... maybe not even an NPC Guard, but players who have somehow highlighted themselves (Perhaps with a toggle), who are willing to Fight for and Protect the Innocent?

If parameters such as, "Swordsmanship =< 50%" were enabled int the calculation, then only low level players with non-existant or poor battle skills (Obviously, Archery, Tactics, Macing etc would be accounted for too) could use this tool? Obviously it would apply to Miners and the like as well who are helpless.

Rather then having Players who would usually be dettered by following another real player for 3 hours while he Mines "hoping some reds actually appear to actually save him from", they could be called upon at any time to Teleport to him and assist when he runs into trouble?

I know it's a long shot, as the moment the Miner see's red names, he'd have to "press the Help! button". Then the Players who recieve the Message Gump to teleport to and protect said low level player, would have to decide whether they want to actually help or not, and additionally prepare for it suitably to provide the protection.

I suppose if the "Protectors" would only enable the option when they are battle-ready, then that minor issue is solved.

So to try and summerise:

A Toggle System enabled for Blue's only. It indicates if they are Battle-ready to help protect other Low Level Blue's (According to a admitedly, fairly intricate Skill anaylsis to ensure high levels players aren't abusing the system).

When the Miner comes into trouble, he can push a button on the Paper doll maybe (Even a Macro Key?), he okays the request with a simple "Are you sure you want to call for help?" gump to pass the request around. Anyone Blue who has it enabled (and thus prepared for battle) recieves the message gump, and can choose to assist or not.

Anyone who says "Yes", is teleported, and can protect the Miner from said PK's.

The ONLY problem, I still see though, is Numbers.

There's no way the Game can determine the number of PK's approaching, thus cannot set an effective maximum amount of Blue Protectors to be teleported. If there is 10 PK's, a maximum of 3-5 Blue's won't cut it and might just be a slaughter for all Blue's, but if you raise the numbers beyond 5, and there's a single PK, he's then severely outnumbered?

But maybe that doesn't matter, because you are trying to protect him from a pointless death to a PKer that is presumably trying to kill him, for the sake of killing him? (This bit sounds potentially a point I will get flamed on, maybe I have been trammelised or fail to understand the bigger picture, so go easy on me and correct me accordingly)

I can already see this having more problems then I first anticipated actually. Another one being, WHERE the Blue Protectors are actually being summoned to? If the Message Gump they recieve can't highlight the location with any type of clarity (A mini radar? A lot of coding I guess), then they could appear deep in a dungeon if a Young Newbie ventured that far in... might not be where the Protectors want to end up, heh!

Rip this idea apart, as I'm just sorta speaking my mind, if it's way too flawed or troublesome, just say so, don't need to slap me in the face with a fish about it... just trying to help and contribute -_-

 

[Coldren]

That's exactly the problem, saying that "the intentions don't matter, I got PK'd" is ridiculous. Players should be able to expect, within reason, whether they will be attacked by a PK or not.

For example, a player who is farming at the lich lord room shouldn't be surprised when a PK comes in and attacks them. That should be an expected result because you represent a high yield kill. However, the random newbie at the Yew graveyard shouldn't need to high tail it and run at the first sign of a red name, because he isn't worth the PK's time. The same is true in resource gathering as well. The value of what you carry (in 99% of cases) should be of little interest to a PK because he can get better results elsewhere.

As of right now, there is no differentiation between the two scenarios, and rectifying the second scenario is what needs to be done. The first scenario is a non-issue because the PK represents the majority risk in that scenario. The second scenario is a very low-reward scenario, and should carry a low risk with it as well.

The only way to objectively deal with this issue is to use some method of gauging the gold value of a player to the PK, which is the only legitimate reason for killing a player (no, the psychotic killer pack-rat role player is not an excuse). Given that, the most direct method of achieving gauging is by using the in-game values for items.

I really don't know how much more clear I can be about this. Saying that "PKers ruin my day" is hardly an excuse, especially when you (and by you I mean the victim) are doing something that carries a significant reward for being successful. In fact, you should expect that players will attack and kill you in those instances because you have something highly desirable.

You're making the mistake of assuming that PK'ers, the one who caused the most problems, killed people to gain something of TANGIBLE value.

These people weren't the problem. They'd kill you, take your loot, and leave. Maybe come back and check on you later to see if you've filled your pack yet, if you were foolish enough to come back and do so without returning to the city more frequently to bank your hard-earned rewards.

No, the problem were the people who would roam the city entrances, killing anyone who walked outside it, inventory or no. Then they would camp corpse you and rez kill you for hours on end. Talk smack, shout obscenities, and seemingly never grow tired of it. They didn't care if you were new with starter gear or full plate with vanq and invulnerable gear and stack of regs. They didn't discriminate, they didn't do it for profit, and they didn't care what you think.

Those were the people who gave UO the reputation it had, not the honorable, purely for profit PK's that you seem to think everyone was. Those players were never the problem. They weren't always a welcome sight. You weren't happy when it happened to you. But, Belan the looter was awesome. The PK that would pop up every day in the caves outside of Trinsic to PK miners was doing it for the Ore, so he had purpose. People understood this, and either learned to fight or learned to avoid. People like that, they had their place in the world.

The *******s didn't.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

Those were the people who gave UO the reputation it had, not the honorable, purely for profit PK's that you seem to think everyone was. Those players were never the problem. Belan the looter was awesome. People like that, they had their place in the world.

The *******s didn't.

You are right. But at my second resskill, i would call my guildie and get the red ass handed, or worst. If someone camped the britain graveyard road, after 1 minute you could get 4 blues to own his ass.
I agree that these people were *******s, were people like Belan the looter were doing A FABOLOUS work toward the community, giving a lot of funny situation that could be, at first, frustrating, but gave us interaction and "drama.


The whole "blue evocation idea" is , let's say, a good start. I can think of MANY ways to exploit such a thing, so i don't think is a really good idea, but you didn't miss what i'm repeating: most of "behavioral" problems of players must be solved BETWEEN PLAYERS!!
I were'nt suggesting of GUARD POSTS in mines to protect miners, i were suggesting something like

Mike the miner is mining in minoc. He has IRC opened on the "Minoc Police Defense" channel , or is connected to their AUTOMAP server.
"OMG PWNZ" the pk comes and attacks him. He asks for help pressing a single button. The police guild is prepared and has runes to go to the mine very fast. In the meanwhile, the miner, that was prepared, holded the pk a bit healing himself. The blues arrive, the pk's flee/loses/wins.

That's what i call interaction. Not EXILING PEOPLE , devs must correct client issues and add content, not screw on the player interaction

 

[The Man Who]

Bad stratics emailing me, im still not over my addiction

still waiting for another MMO to play, tried conan/vanguard/warhammer none was even close to being as good as UO:R

if they ever bring back a UO:R shard count me and 15-20 family and friends to come back and some new ones

 

[Coldren]

You are right. But at my second resskill, i would call my guildie and get the red ass handed, or worst. If someone camped the britain graveyard road, after 1 minute you could get 4 blues to own his ass.
I agree that these people were *******s, were people like Belan the looter were doing A FABOLOUS work toward the community, giving a lot of funny situation that could be, at first, frustrating, but gave us interaction and "drama.


The whole "blue evocation idea" is , let's say, a good start. I can think of MANY ways to exploit such a thing, so i don't think is a really good idea, but you didn't miss what i'm repeating: most of "behavioral" problems of players must be solved BETWEEN PLAYERS!!
I were'nt suggesting of GUARD POSTS in mines to protect miners, i were suggesting something like

Mike the miner is mining in minoc. He has IRC opened on the "Minoc Police Defense" channel , or is connected to their AUTOMAP server.
"OMG PWNZ" the pk comes and attacks him. He asks for help pressing a single button. The police guild is prepared and has runes to go to the mine very fast. In the meanwhile, the miner, that was prepared, holded the pk a bit healing himself. The blues arrive, the pk's flee/loses/wins.

That's what i call interaction. Not EXILING PEOPLE , devs must correct client issues and add content, not screw on the player interaction

Some of these are good ideas. And I agree, players themselves need to address such issues as best they can, but you make some assumptions that need to be addressed:

1) New players might not have guildies or friends they can have come help them, but they can equally be ganked looted, etc.

2) That people WANT to take the time to address these issues amongst themselves. Clearly, that didn't happen before Trammel, what makes you think that attitude and behavior has in any way changed?

3) Are you going to drop everything you're doing every time a miner hits the panic button? By definition of your idea, doesn't someone have to? What stops reds from using the same system to find out where the miners that are getting ganked are so that they too can gank some miners?

4) People are unreliable and not on all hours of the day. You might have a fine guild that does exactly as you describe a few hours a day... But what about off hours?

Absolutely nothing stopped people from doing exactly as you described before Trammel in some way shape or form. Time has shown that the majority of players are lazy, don't want to involve themselves because of risk or lack of reward, or quite frankly, just don't care. Especially if there is no real "reward" for doing so. It simply will not work without a guiding hand.

You'll find superheros and social crusaders in MMO's in rather short supply. You put too much stock in people in a GAME. People in the real world might respond differently, but those same rules do not apply to a virtual world.

But punishment that they have no control of? People understand that REAL quick.. Even in a game. Like RG said, UO was a social experiment, and anyone who knows anything about psychology will tell you, even rats figure out which button shocks them and which feeds them pellets in very, very short order.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

Some of these are good ideas. And I agree, players themselves need to address such issues as best they can, but you make some assumptions that need to be addressed:

1) New players might not have guildies or friends they can have come help them, but they can equally be ganked looted, etc.

2) That people WANT to take the time to address these issues amongst themselves. Clearly, that didn't happen before Trammel, what makes you think that attitude and behavior has in any way changed?

3) Are you going to drop everything you're doing every time a miner hits the panic button? By definition of your idea, doesn't someone have to? What stops reds from using the same system to find out where the miners that are getting ganked are so that they too can gank some miners?

4) People are unreliable and not on all hours of the day. You might have a fine guild that does exactly as you describe a few hours a day... But what about off hours?

Absolutely nothing stopped people from doing exactly as you described before Trammel in some way shape or form. Time has shown that the majority of players are lazy, don't want to involve themselves because of risk or lack of reward, or quite frankly, just don't care. Especially if there is no real "reward" for doing so. It simply will not work without a guiding hand.

You'll find superheros and social crusaders in MMO's in rather short supply. You put too much stock in people in a GAME. People in the real world might respond differently, but those same rules do not apply to a virtual world.

But punishment that they have no control of? People understand that REAL quick.. Even in a game. Like RG said, UO was a social experiment, and anyone who knows anything about psychology will tell you, even rats figure out which button shocks them and which feeds them pellets in very, very short order.

I will answer every point per se

1) They will soon understand the need of a guild. UO isn't supposed to be a single player game. If you wanna play alone, prepare yourself

2) Because , if a classic server will be ever made, it will have a vast majority of veterans, and there will be people prepared to do what i told ya. Many will do it only to show off and to make it clear that they are cooler than the noto pks

3) An organized guild would do that. Let's say im hunting the ancient wyrm and the duty calls. I drop everything and go if i can do it. If i made a guild that's supposed to do it, well, i do it

4) It should be checkable if there's protectors online or not. If not, i would mine in a safer place / not mine at all. Or take the risk, prepare myself. It's not hard to have a recall macro handy. A G-heal wand, and you can run away to guard zone to minoc mines. Or you can set up MANY traps. If you want i can tell you how to pwn pks very easily. As i said, i'm playing in a T2A environment even now and pk's are not an issue if i'm prepared, even without help.
The reward must be found within yourself, in your fun. I bet there are lots of people that can have fun defending the weak and Roleplaying the paladin. Or just have fun to PVP vs PKS. I think that players are ready to do such things nowdays.


The thing that you aren't understanding is that mining isn't supposed to be safe, as everything in the T2A era! . There are many ways to help yourself against pk's , and even then you can't always win. but pk can't always win in the same way .
Uo was a game to make money, that's why trammel came. Now, resurrecting the T2A ruleset would make subscribers come back. Carebear will be free to continue to farm artifact pixels in the production shard.

 

[Izzy MBC]

3) Are you going to drop everything you're doing every time a miner hits the panic button?

I believe he was addressing my post, I think (Edit, apparently not, we seem to have concurrently operating similar idea's, lol), except didn't quote me, so maybe I can help explain my thoughts here based on my idea. Antonio Cataneo had his own thoughts too, so he's welcome to address these same questions.

The idea is the Protectors (Higher Level Blue's) can toggle this at ANY time, so if they don't want to be bothered with Message Gumps about saving people and performing that Duty they only sometimes like to perform, they can disable it, and let others continue protecting. Hopefuly the Server will actually be PACKED, with a healthy population, and the few people that don't Protect, it'll be passed onto others who are just logging on and want some fun, or other people who just like protecting throughout the day. With a packed Server, there will always be 5-10 people opting to help, I would have thought, if not many more?

By definition of your idea, doesn't someone have to?

For my system to work, yes, but I'd like to believe that a few Blue's out of hundreds are always willing to lend a hand, and have some fun killing some Red's? I don't believe there would ever be None, given again, a healthy Server population, except for maybe off-peak times? I'm not sure how Player Capacity is measured in the old days across a 24 hour period, I woulda thought enough people would always be on... feel free to correct me, old timers

What stops reds from using the same system to find out where the miners that are getting ganked are so that they too can gank some miners?

It would not be possible, as only Blue's would be tied into the Blue System. If it does for some reason need to exist to protect Lower End Red's or Grey's (if this even likely much?), then their Toggle System would be independant of the Blue System.

Actually, I think I understand your point now, I guess if a pack of Red's died to a bunch of Blue's protecting a miner, and one of the Red's was actually a Newbie... then I guess they could immediately call new reinforcements. But the idea is to stop the Red's griefing, so maybe a Red System doesn't even need to be in place, then the problem would be solved.

I don't recall ever reading this problem being reversed as far as I can recall, that is: Blue's farming Newbie Reds? I don't think so... but feel free to correct me there as well.

EDIT: Actually, forget my system, it can be abused in the case of Battles due to randomly calling extra people in when a newbie dies in the midst of everything. Ignore me. And now I'm spent.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I'm going to respectfully bow out of the discussion at this point, the direction of things are becoming quite clear and I am obviously in the minority, in any event good luck all and may you get the classic shard as it was at launch.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

I'm going to respectfully bow out of the discussion at this point, the direction of things are becoming quite clear and I am obviously in the minority, in any event good luck all and may you get the classic shard as it was at launch.

i don't get in which minority you are placing yourself, but i hope you didn't misunderstand my vigor for rudeness or anything near it , frankly this discussion is just a... discussion till some dev doesn't show up to express his opinion

 

[Coldren]

Likewise...

1) They will soon understand the need of a guild. UO isn't supposed to be a single player game. If you wanna play alone, prepare yourself

Something I completely agree with.. However, if you are a new player, and have a hard time either finding a guild that is right for you, or just have a hard time socializing.. Is that license to be ganked and harassed by others? Who or what helps them? Or do they somehow not deserve it?

It was a long, long time before I picked a guild that I've stuck with for all these years. I don't jump into things, no matter how urgent the need may appear. I'm not the most social person not due to personality, but because I often don't have a lot of time to commit to social activities. It's only by good fortune that I have a good job with available time that I can post here at all!

So... Gank me?

But then again, there will be Prodo shards, so really they don't have to come to the classic one AT ALL.. But still, something to consider.

2) Because , if a classic server will be ever made, it will have a vast majority of veterans, and there will be people prepared to do what i told ya. Many will do it only to show off and to make it clear that they are cooler than the noto pks

And where were these "Vets" before Trammel? Weren't they there when all of this was happening in the first place, hence, making them Vets?

3) An organized guild would do that. Let's say im hunting the ancient wyrm and the duty calls. I drop everything and go if i can do it. If i made a guild that's supposed to do it, well, i do it

Well that is very good and noble of you.. But again, nothing stopped you and guilds from doing this before the split. It's not to say that this didn't happen then, but it is saying that whatever was done wasn't enough to prevent what happened.. So a I ask again, why is this time somehow different?

4) It should be checkable if there's protectors online or not. If not, i would mine in a safer place / not mine at all.

.. Good for PK'ers to know too.. They can either know they can farm common spots with less fear, or they know enough to go places people normally DON'T go to mine in peace..

As i said, i'm playing in a T2A environment even now....

Please PM me.. I'm interested in hearing more about the details of this, and I'd rather not have the thread locked or your post removed. I can't really discuss your experience more until I know more about it.

The reward must be found within yourself, in your fun. I bet there are lots of people that can have fun defending the weak and Roleplaying the paladin. Or just have fun to PVP vs PKS. I think that players are ready to do such things nowdays.

I agree, and I ask you.. Were were those same people pre-Tram? And while I agree, they WERE there, I'd point out again, it was insufficient to prevent what happened, so what makes now any different? If anything with the WoW Generation(tm) of MMO players, I'd bet the PK's will be worse now, more than ever. I think you'll find even less altruism now than ever before.

The thing that you aren't understanding is that mining isn't supposed to be safe, as everything in the T2A era! . There are many ways to help yourself against pk's , and even then you can't always win. but pk can't always win in the same way

I couldn't agree more. And I never said anything should be safe - That would make it Trammel. Clearly, not what I or anyone else who supports the Classic Shard is looking for.

Uo was a game to make money, that's why trammel came.

It certainly ended up that way, but that's not how it started. I mean, yes, any business wants to make money, few should be naive enough to think otherwise, but..

"Ultima Online has far surpassed our expectations - both from a business standpoint and as a grand social experiment," said Garriott. "In many ways, the land of Britannia mirrors our own. People are flocking to an environment where they can live an alternate existence, launching their own personal and business lives within a virtual world."

http://www.mobygames.com/game/ultima-online/adblurbs

There are other interviews where he refers to it as a social experiment, but I am at a bit of a loss as to where I found them before.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Re: Classic shard: Narrowing the gaps

Pre publish 16. It was that publish that really ruined the thieving profession for most of us, even though we stuck around long after in hopes that things would be changed for the better...la

edit: haha, didn't read past the poll until after I posted this...neener neener...la

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Whoa! Take a few hours off and you have a LOT of reading to catch up on.

I am going to have spend some time reading through...there are some LONG posts (like I have room to talk).

But I did want to respond to Heartseeker...

You PM'ed me about that freeshard HOW MANY MONTHS AGO?

I gave it a look. It was actually pretty neat. Did I play it day and night for months? No. But I jumped on and talked to several people. Character name there is Raven (nod to Heartseeker). If anyone here talked to me, or killed me, Hi!!

I died a few times, I wouldn't say that it was more so than in the old days of UO, but most of the people I talked to, the ones that didn't attack me on sight, said that PKing was a problem.

I still remain convinced that what we have stickied would be a good starting point, but that something would probably need to be implemented to curb PKing either at launch of the shard, or just after (first month).

And someone asked me about the Exile idea and how players will re-equip...

Two ways really...

1 - Rely on what you can loot or steal in the dungeon.

2 - Leave exile (remember, it is voluntary) and just go to Buc's Den or your house. Of course, there is some risk in that, because you are open to stat loss on death while you are not in exile.

Okay...I need coffee, then I will read through all the posts.

 

[dinanm3atl]

A PK is a Serial Killer of sorts. What the person has on them. What the person is carrying. What they can sell what they loot for... it doesn't matter. I had a PK character as well. Let's really look at how this sort of thing worked.

Newb mining. I might kill them. I might not. If I did it was simply just to grief. BooHoo. When I was new I got killed. I still got killed when I was a GM Miner/Smith. So what? I got murdered. Half the time I came back and the only stuff missing was maybe some 'nice' ingots. All my ore, tools and recall rune(some dastardly peeps would take the recall scrolls... to grief) and I walk my arse back to wherever I need to go. Hopefully I got as much left as possible.

I am farming somewhere. Many times this is a gankfesh as it will be 2, 3 or more PKs. Many times everything would be left. Maybe some ID'd weapons would be gone. Maybe my reg bag. Half the time they would res or at the minimum gate out of the dungeon back to some bank.

Sometimes we would fight back or set a trap. And we would kill a red or two. We would offer gates. Talk to them. Be friendly. It turns different when they kill you and you joke that you just killed XYZ and gated him somewhere. It is part of the damn game. Figuring out how to make it 'harder' or 'worse' to play that character style defeats the classic shard idea in my mind. We seem to all want, or mostly want, the Oct 98 t2a which had a certain ruleset. Yes that needs some big fixes and potentially some minor tweaks but that was the heydey for me. Why do we get to discuss a classic shard and get to want to cripple one character style. Make it worse for them if they actually are killed. Why? Maybe we should make penalties for other things that some don't like?

It honestly sounds like some dislike them and to try and curb their activities we want to penalize them more than what it was before to try and create the game that some want. How is that fair? If you traveled in groups, played better, learned how to PvP better etc you might not actually get killed and then it wouldn't really be Player Killing would it?

I am an avid supporter for an EA run proper shard that is the classic ruleset. I would play the same game that was out there in 98... I don't need to penalize anyone. I don't know what PK penalties will work best. I do know that I don't think getting to choose that one character style gets extra penalties while we want to give boost to this or that. Allow insurance on a pet or not on a pet is just not fair. We want classic? Is that what we want?

Here is the bottomline. October 98. Were any of you on the verge of quitting because of being PK'd? Did you actually quit? I didn't and I bet 90% or more... will answer the same way.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Also...I see a lot of people posting about player justice.

I LOVE Player Justice!!

To me, that is what pre-Tram UO was all about! That is what my guild was founded to do. That is pretty much ALL we did before Trammel came.

For me, that is the ultimate solution to any PK problem.

But...

Having been there, and having done that, I can tell you...it doesn't work out as well in practice as it does in theory.

Back in the old days, it was so much easier to be a PK than to be an Anti. Mostly because random PKs would carry little of value on them, so death didn't really matter to them. Even when stat loss came in, most didn't really seem to care...all it did was force PKs to hunt in packs or large groups...making them harder to kill.

I will give the 'stat loss on rez is enough' crowd this point: When stat loss came in, we saw a lot less of the lone PK. Instead, we saw a lot more gank squads.

Quite honestly, I think I prefered the former to the latter. At least a lone PK engaged in a fair fight. We also saw a lot more blue PKs and blues that were part of gank squads.

Some of that probably comes down to the fact that people were starting to organize by that point. And actually, on most shards, large Anti-PK guilds had actually started to make some headway in controlling the PK problems. Atlantic was not so lucky. My guild was 150+ strong at that time, and you had PK guilds that doubled that, or more. There were WAY more PK guilds than Antis back then on Atlantic. So much so, that we generally took shifts in the game. We had west coast and European players that would cover the non-peak hours. These people were at a serious disadvantage though because of their connection. But the European shards were not open yet, and Atlantic was actually their best bet.

Anyway, back to reading...

 

[Coldren]

Why do we get to discuss a classic shard and get to want to cripple one character style. Make it worse for them if they actually are killed. Why? ...

It honestly sounds like some dislike them and to try and curb their activities we want to penalize them more than what it was before to try and create the game that some want.

Ever heard the phrase "Those who aren't familiar with history are doomed to repeat it?"

I, much like you, agree with your hayday. I would go for a T2A '98 set in a heartbeat, exactly as it was... You and I, we're not the kind of people Trammel was made for. I and anyone else discussing this problem aren't talking about people like you and me.

But if you want the shard to thrive, grow, and prosper in the long run, you can't just prop one up and expect a different outcome. It's literally the definition of insanity. You have to address the issues that caused that version of the shard to die in the first place.

I too want PK's - It made challenge, excitement, and it made me get smarter as a player. It made it a real world. I was ganked, killed, looted, everything possible.. I'm not saying that was the problem.

But to be able to kill with abandon, grief (Not just steal a recall scroll), and all around *******s are want got enough people pissed at the game enough to want to stop playing..

Would I have quit had Trammel never happened? Hell no. Would others? When they say it was bleeding subscribers before Tram, I tend to believe them.. Otherwise they wouldn't have invested so heavily and bet so big on their solution, for better or worse.. No one does this for nothing.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

i'm really happy seeing that i'm not alone in my thoughts .
As for Coldren.

Vets , at the time, were not... VETS! they hadn't the experience, and the technologies to do such a thing. I remember most of the communications being made in-game (and that was one of the strong points, but a change nowdays its unavoidable) , making it all harder.
To be honest, i frankly don't remember so many pk's . They were surely part of the gameplay, but with the murder /statloss system i remember them being more caotius. Frankly, after your second gank, an intelligent player would have been able to avoid them. Or, if you didn't liked the thing, you would jump on another game. The problem was money all along, and the massive quantity of shards. after a peak of subscriptions the downfall cannot be eluded, and so the newly opened shards (like the 2nd european one) would look emptier.. But we are talking about 1 shard hosting the whole thing. The player base would be bigger than ever.


PS: i remember the garriot's statement, i remember them well, and i think that he was boasting himself (and he had all the reasons ) for making a great game, newspapers were talking about it too, so he tried to make the thing look more.. noble. a "Social experiment" is cooler than a "freedom based game" to the media.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Why do we get to discuss a classic shard and get to want to cripple one character style. Make it worse for them if they actually are killed. Why? Maybe we should make penalties for other things that some don't like?

It honestly sounds like some dislike them and to try and curb their activities we want to penalize them more than what it was before to try and create the game that some want. How is that fair?

Why do we seek to penalize PKs? That's a good question. Why did OSI seek to penalize PKs from day 1?

If you will remember, from the very first day of Ultima Online, there were penalties in place for being evil. Initially, it was the noto system. Once you dropped to Dread Lord, you could not go into guard zones. NPCs would not rez you, and players that healed you or rez'ed you lost noto.

That didn't work. PKs just did what they wanted to do.

So OSI changed the Noto system to the Rep system. They added murder counts, stat loss, etc.

That didn't work. PKs just did what they wanted to do.

So they split the world and gave everyone that didn't want to deal with PKs Trammel.

Everybody left Felucca except PKs and PvPers and people that had houses there.

With no victims left, the PKs left the game mostly.

Look how many people are in this thread that are currently NOT playing UO because of Trammel. Take a look at the posts of these players, and you will see that most of them are advocating for similar things that you seem to be. Easier rules for PKs, or at least no additional rules for PKs.

Here's the problem with that:

History proves that won't work. PKs will do what they want to do.

And then you will end up with an entire shard that is like Fel. Empty except for a PvPers. The victims will leave, the PKs will leave again. And you will have a very lightly populated shard of nothing but PvPers.

 

[dinanm3atl]

I agree. At least for 3-6 months you might actually be seeing 'server full'... Lots of people would be jumping onto this. Having full dungeons. Having brit bank all kinds of full. Would be epic.

Having new tech like teamspeak/vent would make the game different. PvP would be different but the same. Make he game new... I used to sit on the phone with my cousin while we played. FOR HOURS. Now we just use vent...

I truly hope it does happen. The classic player run shards are fun. They seem to have a bigger PK problem than the origin shards back in the day.

 

[Coldren]

i'm really happy seeing that i'm not alone in my thoughts . .

It might not have come across in my posts, but I'm definitely in favor of "Player Justice".. Really I am. In a prefect UO world, that solution would be perfect.

I say go with it. Let's see what happens. If you really believe people have somehow grown in their wisdom because of time because they are now "Vets", and somehow, weren't vets after a year or two of playing, that Vent is game-changing compared to ICQ and IRC (Faster? Yes. Game-changing? Debatable.) than that's your perspective.

But much like Morgana, I don't see any construct of "Player Justice" working. I do not share your view of "players". Yes, gankers and griefers were relatively few, especially after stat loss.. But clearly not so few that they didn't cause Trammel to happen.

I see everything unfolding exactly as it did before. Don't get me wrong, I'm still all in for the ride, but I'm doing so with my eyes open - Knowing that if they do nothing to address the original problem, the odds of the exact same problems cropping up again are almost a certainty.