Classic shard.

[Kaivan]

Personally, I think working off counts as a ghost is a problem.

Rather, I think counts should be traded in for stat loss, after a base stat loss at res is determined.

In other words, you res with a basic stat loss, you lose no murder counts (or half or some other percentage) and remain red if you still fall in that category. With an option to trade in more murder counts for more stat loss. Work off more murder counts by playing after resing.

So, anyone who resurrects as a red suffers a basic amount of stat-loss, regardless of the number of murder counts they have. Sounds an awful lot like stat-loss on death and you might as well incur the loss on death because it's just as meaningful as forcing it on resurrection. Unless, of course, you're planning on allowing a player to work off those counts while dead.

As for allowing a player to burn off extra counts for extra stat-loss; sure you can put that system in place. However, just like the "Resurrect with penalties" option that players had back in the day (ya know, the one with a permanent 10% stat-loss to res instantly on the spot), it won't be used by anyone. End result: stat-loss on death.

Finally, with regard to macroing counts off as a ghost, anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be able to do exactly the same thing while alive in the safety of their home. It's a problem either way.

-------

On a different note, has anyone considered my question regarding taming. Does anyone know what kind of taming system they would prefer to use as the base system? That seems like a pretty important first question before deciding on whether taming slots or bonding should be used.

-------

Finally....

Ahh isnt that cute. He thinks they had "young" status back in T2A

Funny, considering the fact that it did come in during T2A.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Personally, I think working off counts as a ghost is a problem.

Rather, I think counts should be traded in for stat loss, after a base stat loss at res is determined.

In other words, you res with a basic stat loss, you lose no murder counts (or half or some other percentage) and remain red if you still fall in that category. With an option to trade in more murder counts for more stat loss. Work off more murder counts by playing after resing.

So, anyone who resurrects as a red suffers a basic amount of stat-loss, regardless of the number of murder counts they have. Sounds an awful lot like stat-loss on death and you might as well incur the loss on death because it's just as meaningful as forcing it on resurrection. Unless, of course, you're planning on allowing a player to work off those counts while dead.

As for allowing a player to burn off extra counts for extra stat-loss; sure you can put that system in place. However, just like the "Resurrect with penalties" option that players had back in the day (ya know, the one with a permanent 10% stat-loss to res instantly on the spot), it won't be used by anyone. End result: stat-loss on death.

Finally, with regard to macroing counts off as a ghost, anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be able to do exactly the same thing while alive in the safety of their home. It's a problem either way.

So you're saying that reds should not be able to burn off murder counts at all? (Actually, I kind of like that. Muhaha)

But you're primary goal seems to be to remove penalties from PKers. Or, rather, to make penalties that PKers can avoid while continuing to play their game.
That has never worked. Not in old UO, not in other games.

I don't know what it takes to get it through the PKers' thick heads. Other players do not want to play that game with and for the PKers, and the PKers don't want to play just among themselves. PKers are such pariahs. They destroy games, and then want yet another game to destroy, never caring for anything but themselves.

 

[Derrick83]

Finally....



Funny, considering the fact that it did come in during T2A.

Hrm. T2A released October 1, 1998, that was a patch released in the era of T2A. As a matter of fact its closer to UO:R (which is what made the game as we know it now). That was posted November 16, 1999 and UO:R came out May 4, 2000.

So it was released over a 13.5 months after T2A and 5.5 months before UO:R.
It only applied to ACCOUNTS less than 40 hours old, which was basically only someone who just bought the game, which we did not get a new influx of until the UO:R release.

So really the young status thing was something they put in as a pre-release to UO:R since UO:R was such a major release they put all the stuff in that patch to prepare for the UO:R that came less than 6 months later. To me, most of the stuff in that patch(since it was made with UO:R and trammel in mind) is basically UO:R(since you didnt actually SEE many young players until UO:R released and new people bought the game).

So, we DIDNT have young players in T2A era. It was released at the tail end of it, and made with trammel and UO:R in mind and didn't actually get used until UO:R. It is more a UO:R thing than T2A and if they are smart they will not include this in the shard rules.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

So, anyone who resurrects as a red suffers a basic amount of stat-loss, regardless of the number of murder counts they have. Sounds an awful lot like stat-loss on death and you might as well incur the loss on death because it's just as meaningful as forcing it on resurrection. Unless, of course, you're planning on allowing a player to work off those counts while dead.

As for allowing a player to burn off extra counts for extra stat-loss; sure you can put that system in place. However, just like the "Resurrect with penalties" option that players had back in the day (ya know, the one with a permanent 10% stat-loss to res instantly on the spot), it won't be used by anyone. End result: stat-loss on death.

Finally, with regard to macroing counts off as a ghost, anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be able to do exactly the same thing while alive in the safety of their home. It's a problem either way.

Everyone keeps going back and forth with stat loss. Has anyone even considered other options besides stat loss??

Consider this:

Instead of stat loss, regardless of if it is on death or res, what if the red is "jailed" for x amount of time per murder he or she committed since the last time they died. What does "jailed" mean? You cannot log in with that character for a certain amount of time. So if you killed 6 players, and you died, you would not be able to play that character for 6 days. No stat loss, no macroing off counts. The only way to wipe counts is to die and serve the sentence (or see below).

What would this do to discourage rampant PK?

- It would mean that if a red went on a killing spree and then died, that they would not be around killing players on that character for a while.

- It would mean that they would have to die periodically to get rid of counts...or the count would get so high that they would not be able to play the character for a long time.

- It prevents anyone from getting around the penalty...because you couldn't macro it off.

- It makes reds limit their killing over a period of time, even if they decide to die regularly to burn off counts.

I know that this idea will not be popular with people that want to play as reds. And that 1 day per kill is probably too severe, it's just an example. You could do something like 6-8 hours per kill, so if you killed 3-4 people today, then died, you would not be able to use that character for 24 hours. The exact hours per kill could be tweaked if it was too severe or not severe enough.

Some other ideas:

- Community service. The only way to get rid of murder counts besides "jail time" would be to kill x number of negative karma mobs. The number would have to be really, really, high though. So suppose a red had 5 kills he wanted to burn off, he might have to kill 500 (100 per kill) demons. So this would give the red a way out of the "jail" time, as long as he didn't die before he could complete the task. Again, the exact numbers could be tweaked.

- Exile. The red can choose exile instead of waiting until he dies. In exile, the red would be trapped in a specific dungeon...like Khaldun...for the same length of time he would serve in "jail". In exile, the red can be killed by blues, and sent to "jail", but only for the time he has not served in exile, and he cannot be reported for murders while in exile. This at least gives the red something to do if they still want to play their character and burn off the counts. It also creates a super challenging dungeon that would be the heart of most PK vs. Anti activity.


I think it is obvious that stat loss on rez won't work. It didn't work before, but if we think outside the box a little, something might be possible that actually adds to the game...like the exile idea. In that particular scenario, the reds become the hunted, but they also get to continue PKing while working off counts. Anyone that doesn't have the nerves for it, just wouldn't go there. It's almost like a 'mini-Fel', but only temporary.

 

[Evlar]

I can picture it now...

...Shard goes live

...Loads of (Young) players at the Sweet Dreams inn, Britain.

Ahh isnt that cute. He thinks they had "young" status back in T2A

Forgive my memory...

I actually only created three characters pre-2000. They were all I needed back then. A crafter mule, a warrior and a mage. I only created further characters after 2008. Nine years between creating new "young" characters can fuzz the brain a little I only came to UO early 1999, so perhaps missed what some enjoyed most during 1997/1998. From memory though, I was one of extremely few Brits to play Great Lakes at that time. With my dial-up internet back then, it really didn't matter what shard I played, but I picked Great Lakes and stayed there for a very long time.

I've also seen mention of "sheep" from time to time in this thread. I was probably one of those sheep from time to time, but be advised, sometimes those sheep fight back :gun:

The following images, gives good examples of the change of the sheep in UO terms...


The "Classic" Sheep.

Simple weapons were sufficient. Even a reasonable quality sheep stood a chance of defending themselves with something as simple as a GM crafted axe. They relied mostly upon their skill. If they but stood their ground, some of those sheep-killers weren't as tough as their red colouring might have suggested.

The "Modern" Sheep

Times have changed and every sheep feels the need to be just as good as their neighbour, "Jones" the sheep. Therefore, they must be armed to the teeth with the latest weapons and armour, with all the snazzy modifications of the moment. Regardless of being a walking arsenal of items, these sheep usually tend to stay in a cosy environment. They can also be found in groups where they often compare the wonderful items they're wearing, admiring the many wowza colours they can adorn their items with. They are often afraid to tread in the despicable land where the trees are devoid of leaves, even though their wonderful items are insured and can never be lost. Their biggest fear is the wowza colours don't look as good in grey scale.


Sorry... couldn't help myself

 

[Derrick83]

So you're saying that reds should not be able to burn off murder counts at all? (Actually, I kind of like that. Muhaha)

But you're primary goal seems to be to remove penalties from PKers. Or, rather, to make penalties that PKers can avoid while continuing to play their game.
That has never worked. Not in old UO, not in other games.

I don't know what it takes to get it through the PKers' thick heads. Other players do not want to play that game with and for the PKers, and the PKers don't want to play just among themselves. PKers are such pariahs. They destroy games, and then want yet another game to destroy, never caring for anything but themselves.

I don't think it destroys the game, as a matter of fact its what made this era of the game unique, not other game has the open PvP field. Like I said, back when I played T2A I was not a PvP'r and since I have come to love it. PvP and Pking is part of the game. It MAKES people group , which is what makes games fun.. if you want a system with no risk, just play the game that's their now.

The great thing about the T2A era was that you really could do anything you wanted, just like real life, and just like real life their were consequences. UO:R started the restrictions and taking about the freedom of the game.

I think their should be some temporary stat loss. Like When a red reses he loses 10% of your REAL(not modified) skills/stats and they regenerate at 5 points per hour. So if I am red, and have 7x GM and die, I got to 90s and 90/90/23 stats. If I get rezzed and and immediately die again, I would lose another 10% of my real skill taking me to all 80s. After 1 hour I would have 5 of each stat and 5 of each skill returned .. etc..

Point is you can't give to severe penalties for being a PK. Its a INTENTIONAL part of the game. If you start putting "jail" and too massive losses where people cant play, you will lose a lot of the people that LIKE that aspect of the game and they will lose interest. I DO however thing their should be some sort of penalty. That is what makes that profession challenging. Risk vs reward. Being a PK gets you TONS of stuff, but, you have draw backs, cant go into town, get targeted all the time by Noto's and if you die you get nerfed temporarily. Its the way it should work. I dont think it should be tons of UA macroing just to be able to play you character again. Dieing 2 or 3 times your still playable, but then if you die a few times your pretty much done for the night and have to hang up the char until tomorrow because your stats are to nerfed to compete.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I haven't discussed the idea of jailing pcs because I think it's absolutely ludicrous to exercise that much control over someone elses account. Yes stat/skill loss is controlling to a degree but a much lesser degree.

I don't even see how we make the leap from a sensible approach like stat loss on death, to you can't log in with your character for x amount of time. I get that some people are tired of the pk topic but it is a very central piece of the puzzle.

I liked the stat loss on death obviously and I wasn't against the idea of strong npc bands that hunt down murderers but when you start talking about jailing peoples characters that is just going to far for my personal liking.

You should not have your character as completely unplayable at any point in time, unless you are caught using illegal programs or exploiting the game somehow, not when you pay the same monthly fee everyone else does.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I think their should be some temporary stat loss. Like When a red reses he loses 10% of your REAL(not modified) skills/stats and they regenerate at 5 points per hour. So if I am red, and have 7x GM and die, I got to 90s and 90/90/23 stats. If I get rezzed and and immediately die again, I would lose another 10% of my real skill taking me to all 80s. After 1 hour I would have 5 of each stat and 5 of each skill returned .. etc..

Point is you can't give to severe penalties for being a PK. Its a INTENTIONAL part of the game. If you start putting "jail" and too massive losses where people cant play, you will lose a lot of the people that LIKE that aspect of the game and they will lose interest. I DO however thing their should be some sort of penalty. That is what makes that profession challenging. Risk vs reward. Being a PK gets you TONS of stuff, but, you have draw backs, cant go into town, get targeted all the time by Noto's and if you die you get nerfed temporarily. Its the way it should work. I dont think it should be tons of UA macroing just to be able to play you character again. Dieing 2 or 3 times your still playable, but then if you die a few times your pretty much done for the night and have to hang up the char until tomorrow because your stats are to nerfed to compete.

Yeah...a shard like that would last about 2-3 months, if that long, before it was a 100% PvP server.

There is nothing about a server like the one you describe that would entice anyone besides pvp'ers to play on it. And we have already seen where the 100% pvp scene goes...just go look around in Fel on any shard. Empty.

I'm sorry, but it is the truth. You know, if this were like April 22, 2000...I might have sort of agreed with what you are saying, but because of what happened on May 4, 2000...and the mass evacuation of Fel that followed...I know better.

 

[Kaivan]

So you're saying that reds should not be able to burn off murder counts at all? (Actually, I kind of like that. Muhaha)

No, I'm not advocating that murderers should be unable to burn off counts at all. I merely pointed out that requiring a basic stat-loss on resurrection and only allowing counts to be burned off while alive produces the exact same results as stat-loss on death.

But you're primary goal seems to be to remove penalties from PKers. Or, rather, to make penalties that PKers can avoid while continuing to play their game.
That has never worked. Not in old UO, not in other games.

If you can quote me ever saying that I wanted to remove penalties then I'll agree that it's my stance.

As for "avoiding" penalties, read what I said about that as well.

I don't know what it takes to get it through the PKers' thick heads. Other players do not want to play that game with and for the PKers, and the PKers don't want to play just among themselves. PKers are such pariahs. They destroy games, and then want yet another game to destroy, never caring for anything but themselves.

Again, it's your supposition that anyone not in support of stat-loss on death is automatically a PKer.

Hrm. T2A released October 1, 1998, that was a patch released in the era of T2A. As a matter of fact its closer to UO:R (which is what made the game as we know it now). That was posted November 16, 1999 and UO:R came out May 4, 2000.

So it was released over a 13.5 months after T2A and 5.5 months before UO:R.

Considering that the title of the patch note says Aug. 26 as part of its title, its pretty obvious that the patch was originally introduced on that date and posted on the UO website on November 16. Given that, the difference in time frames is far less than your original claim (on the order of about 2-3 months), which is a moot point anyway, because it was released during T2A.

It only applied to ACCOUNTS less than 40 hours old, which was basically only someone who just bought the game, which we did not get a new influx of until the UO:R release.

So really the young status thing was something they put in as a pre-release to UO:R since UO:R was such a major release they put all the stuff in that patch to prepare for the UO:R that came less than 6 months later. To me, most of the stuff in that patch(since it was made with UO:R and trammel in mind) is basically UO:R(since you didnt actually SEE many young players until UO:R released and new people bought the game).

So, we DIDNT have young players in T2A era. It was released at the tail end of it, and made with trammel and UO:R in mind and didn't actually get used until UO:R. It is more a UO:R thing than T2A and if they are smart they will not include this in the shard rules.

According to this graph, there were about 40,000 new subscribers (practically half the new subscribers for T2A) between August of 99 and April 2000 (the real release month of UOR). So yeah, there were plenty of people who benefited from the young status in T2A.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I haven't discussed the idea of jailing pcs because I think it's absolutely ludicrous to exercise that much control over someone elses account. Yes stat/skill loss is controlling to a degree but a much lesser degree.

I don't even see how we make the leap from a sensible approach like stat loss on death, to you can't log in with your character for x amount of time. I get that some people are tired of the pk topic but it is a very central piece of the puzzle.

I liked the stat loss on death obviously and I wasn't against the idea of strong npc bands that hunt down murderers but when you start talking about jailing peoples characters that is just going to far for my personal liking.

You should not have your character as completely unplayable at any point in time, unless you are caught using illegal programs or exploiting the game somehow, not when you pay the same monthly fee everyone else does.

It's not my favorite idea either...but I am trying to come up with something that will actually act as a disincentive to people just chasing away everyone besides PKs and PVP'ers.

Take jail out of the equation...come up with a different really tough penalty...but have options, like community service and exile to circumvent them. Something that involves actually having to be present in the game. The idea of stat loss is not going to work, because as others have pointed out, on death, on rez...doesn't matter, it is still possible to just macro off the kills while you sleep. There is zero disincentive to that.

 

[Cogniac]

I am sure as hell not going to read through 1700 responses to see if someone already said this, but: I support 10 minute stat-loss.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

To Morgana: The old shards didn't failed. They weren't just capable of ammassing the right amount of money , they changed the game not because of massive quitting/whining, they changed it because with carebear specs the game would have a big jump on incoming. But we aren't talking about populating 10 shards with loads of ppl, we are talking about ONE shard, a shard where people that ARE AWARE OF THE RISK OF GRIEFING AND ENJOY THE TOTAL FREEDOM INVOLVED want to play. We aren't talking about populating the whole lot of shards we are talking about a niche server. No POST T2A things in the shard. If it's classic, make it REALLY classic!

I don't have a problem with either no control slots, or control slots, because I know it was hard to control more than one or two powerful pets back in the T2A era, but I am dead against pet bonding of any kind. Basically it is a risk versus reward issue. If you are going to be carrying what is the most powerful weapon in the game, you should have a chance of losing it, just like anyone would with any weapon.

That's it. As i said, even bulk dragon tamers are not an issue to prepared players.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

Everyone keeps going back and forth with stat loss. Has anyone even considered other options besides stat loss??

Consider this:

Instead of stat loss, regardless of if it is on death or res, what if the red is "jailed" for x amount of time per murder he or she committed since the last time they died. What does "jailed" mean? You cannot log in with that character for a certain amount of time. So if you killed 6 players, and you died, you would not be able to play that character for 6 days. No stat loss, no macroing off counts. The only way to wipe counts is to die and serve the sentence (or see below).

What would this do to discourage rampant PK?

- It would mean that if a red went on a killing spree and then died, that they would not be around killing players on that character for a while.

- It would mean that they would have to die periodically to get rid of counts...or the count would get so high that they would not be able to play the character for a long time.

- It prevents anyone from getting around the penalty...because you couldn't macro it off.

- It makes reds limit their killing over a period of time, even if they decide to die regularly to burn off counts.

I know that this idea will not be popular with people that want to play as reds. And that 1 day per kill is probably too severe, it's just an example. You could do something like 6-8 hours per kill, so if you killed 3-4 people today, then died, you would not be able to use that character for 24 hours. The exact hours per kill could be tweaked if it was too severe or not severe enough.

Some other ideas:

- Community service. The only way to get rid of murder counts besides "jail time" would be to kill x number of negative karma mobs. The number would have to be really, really, high though. So suppose a red had 5 kills he wanted to burn off, he might have to kill 500 (100 per kill) demons. So this would give the red a way out of the "jail" time, as long as he didn't die before he could complete the task. Again, the exact numbers could be tweaked.

- Exile. The red can choose exile instead of waiting until he dies. In exile, the red would be trapped in a specific dungeon...like Khaldun...for the same length of time he would serve in "jail". In exile, the red can be killed by blues, and sent to "jail", but only for the time he has not served in exile, and he cannot be reported for murders while in exile. This at least gives the red something to do if they still want to play their character and burn off the counts. It also creates a super challenging dungeon that would be the heart of most PK vs. Anti activity.


I think it is obvious that stat loss on rez won't work. It didn't work before, but if we think outside the box a little, something might be possible that actually adds to the game...like the exile idea. In that particular scenario, the reds become the hunted, but they also get to continue PKing while working off counts. Anyone that doesn't have the nerves for it, just wouldn't go there. It's almost like a 'mini-Fel', but only temporary.

Are you serious about the jail thing? What's the reason for you to wanting to play in a "classic" shard? You can't farm enough in trammel and you want a shard where you can steal server births and banksit ? I'm not sarcastic i'm really wondering. Jail time is plain b******t

 

[Trebr Drab]

I think their should be some temporary stat loss. Like When a red reses he loses 10% of your REAL(not modified) skills/stats and they regenerate at 5 points per hour. So if I am red, and have 7x GM and die, I got to 90s and 90/90/23 stats. If I get rezzed and and immediately die again, I would lose another 10% of my real skill taking me to all 80s. After 1 hour I would have 5 of each stat and 5 of each skill returned .. etc..

Point is you can't give to severe penalties for being a PK. Its a INTENTIONAL part of the game. If you start putting "jail" and too massive losses where people cant play, you will lose a lot of the people that LIKE that aspect of the game and they will lose interest. I DO however thing their should be some sort of penalty. That is what makes that profession challenging. Risk vs reward. Being a PK gets you TONS of stuff, but, you have draw backs, cant go into town, get targeted all the time by Noto's and if you die you get nerfed temporarily. Its the way it should work. I dont think it should be tons of UA macroing just to be able to play you character again. Dieing 2 or 3 times your still playable, but then if you die a few times your pretty much done for the night and have to hang up the char until tomorrow because your stats are to nerfed to compete.

Yeah...a shard like that would last about 2-3 months, if that long, before it was a 100% PvP server.

There is nothing about a server like the one you describe that would entice anyone besides pvp'ers to play on it. And we have already seen where the 100% pvp scene goes...just go look around in Fel on any shard. Empty.

I'm sorry, but it is the truth. You know, if this were like April 22, 2000...I might have sort of agreed with what you are saying, but because of what happened on May 4, 2000...and the mass evacuation of Fel that followed...I know better.

And Trammel was brought about for a reason. No one ever gave definitive numbers. But Raph Koster gave a clue when he was Holocron on the SWG boards, as this very sort of conversation was going on, He said "UO lost numbers in the 6 digits, I kid you not." (I think that's word for word.)
That means that UO lost at least 100,000 customers because of PKing. UO had something like 260,000 at the time Trammel was brought into existence. So almost 1/4th of their customers had left because of PKing. That's a massive number, but it doesn't stop there. They were still bleeding massive cancels at the time, and would have lost far more without Trammel. This shows you the degree that it was a problem.

Now, most PKers probably didn't see it in game. They hung out with other PKers. THEY were as happy as a fox in a chicken coop. But those of us who were on the other side, we saw people leaving in droves. Guildmates, associates, more and more disappeared as time went on. Many of the closer ones would tell you why they were leaving. "I love the game, but it's just too much crap." Paraphrasing that one. A lot of these players actually like some PvP. They just didn't like it shoved down their throats all the time. They didn't like working for hours only to have it taken away. Not once, not twice, on a regular basis.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

And Trammel was brought about for a reason. No one ever gave definitive numbers. But Raph Koster gave a clue when he was Holocron on the SWG boards, as this very sort of conversation was going on, He said "UO lost numbers in the 6 digits, I kid you not." (I think that's word for word.)
That means that UO lost at least 100,000 customers because of PKing. UO had something like 260,000 at the time Trammel was brought into existence. So almost 1/4th of their customers had left because of PKing. That's a massive number, but it doesn't stop there. They were still bleeding massive cancels at the time, and would have lost far more without Trammel. This shows you the degree that it was a problem.

Now, most PKers probably didn't see it in game. They hung out with other PKers. THEY were as happy as a fox in a chicken coop. But those of us who were on the other side, we saw people leaving in droves. Guildmates, associates, more and more disappeared as time went on. Many of the closer ones would tell you why they were leaving. "I love the game, but it's just too much crap." Paraphrasing that one. A lot of these players actually like some PvP. They just didn't like it shoved down their throats all the time. They didn't like working for hours only to have it taken away. Not once, not twice, on a regular basis.

as i said, there are ****loads of way to prevent being griefed, i rarely died in the day and i never day today playing a PERFECTLY MATCHING T2A Freeshard. And, as i will remark a lot in this thread, this shard would be a NICHE shard, that would take back a lot of players, but it wouldn't need numbers in the 6 digit to work, not at all.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Are you serious about the jail thing? What's the reason for you to wanting to play in a "classic" shard? You can't farm enough in trammel and you want a shard where you can steal server births and banksit ? I'm not sarcastic i'm really wondering. Jail time is plain b******t

Well, welcome to the thread. Nice to see that someone that just now has gotten involved in the conversation, after some of us have been involved in it for YEARS knows so much about me.

My reason for wanting to play a Classic Shard is because I want the people, the vets, of this game to have a place where they can play the game that we originally signed up for.

If you had bothered to read through this thread, you would understand fully that the two things I do not want to see on a Classic Shard are:

1- Trammel/pvp-switch
2- non consequence PKing.

If you want to play Mr. Big Bad red, then have the nads to live with the consequences.

Unlike yourself, and a handful of others like you, I actually care about the shard not just my own personal benefit.

People like you have come to this thread, and I think that is great. But I think it would be wise for you to actually read it before you come in here throwing out ridiculous attacks like this.

This suggestion is just one of many that have been made in this thread.

Also, if you will go back and actually read the thread, you will see that what we have asked for to be stickied is pretty much what I have advocated for, until we started getting so many PK-types in this thread...that has pretty much convinced me that a shard with only the original penalties will not work if the objective is to re-create a true "Classic Era" feel. The Classic Era had both PvP'ers and non-PvP'ers. To some of you, I guess you are only looking for PvP...so you don't think you care if there are non-PvP'ers on the shard. However, I think once you got a taste of pure PvP, no victims...you would get bored of it pretty quickly. That's what happened in Fel on most shards after the split.

You, and everyone else that comes here seeking to become a PK again on an EA shard has to understand...it won't work. The people playing on a Classic Shard would have choices on where they play, and even what game they play. If a Shard like this is opened up without any meaningful penalties to curb PKing, then you will find yourself with only consensual PvP. No one that doesn't want to PvP will play it. Don't you get it?

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

as i said, there are ****loads of way to prevent being griefed, i rarely died in the day and i never day today playing a PERFECTLY MATCHING T2A Freeshard. And, as i will remark a lot in this thread, this shard would be a NICHE shard, that would take back a lot of players, but it wouldn't need numbers in the 6 digit to work, not at all.

I have a feeling that you sir are one of the many reasons Trammel came about. That said, if you have your way a classic shard will be as empty as Fell is today after just a couple months. I don't care one whit if you want to pk as many people as you want, you'll just have to deal with the consequences of doing it. What I don't want is a tiny minority going hog wild on the PKing and destroying a classic shard...or even the hope of one.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I agree that it is rude to just suddenly show up and take a rude tone. Now back to the matter at hand, Morgana you and I are pretty much working toward the same thing, I just do not want it to go super draconian where pks are concerned and I am only opposed to things that take direct character control away from the player.

You mentioned the npc red hunters I liked that, but perhaps to give the idea a bit more strength add a few more guard posts along certain high traffic areas perhaps?

It is true as well that the more we keep talking about changing things like this the more work it is on the devs and yes to an extent it does start down a slippery slope after a point, but in the case of the pk issue I believe this is one topic where the work is worth doing.

As I see it we are faced with one of two main choices at this point, we can get a majority agreement on these small features we have been discussing or we can ask the devs to just launch classic straight up no changes.

A lot of people will be tempted to say just go classic but every one of us who actually wants this to work needs to keep the larger picture in mind, a shard that just opens up under pure T2A X patch will be fun for a little while but will collapse under the same issues as we have said time and time again.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Are you serious about the jail thing? What's the reason for you to wanting to play in a "classic" shard? You can't farm enough in trammel and you want a shard where you can steal server births and banksit ? I'm not sarcastic i'm really wondering. Jail time is plain b******t

But seriously, jail time to me seems a lot like ghosting off murder counts. Although it might satisfy the victims in the game as "justice".

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

@ Cal_Mythic:

Renyard's signature says he is offering Pepsi and Twizzlers. I will throw in Mt. Dew and Kit Kats!

Whatya say?? That's a pretty sweet offer!

 

[Trebr Drab]

And Trammel was brought about for a reason. No one ever gave definitive numbers. But Raph Koster gave a clue when he was Holocron on the SWG boards, as this very sort of conversation was going on, He said "UO lost numbers in the 6 digits, I kid you not." (I think that's word for word.)
That means that UO lost at least 100,000 customers because of PKing. UO had something like 260,000 at the time Trammel was brought into existence. So almost 1/4th of their customers had left because of PKing. That's a massive number, but it doesn't stop there. They were still bleeding massive cancels at the time, and would have lost far more without Trammel. This shows you the degree that it was a problem.

Now, most PKers probably didn't see it in game. They hung out with other PKers. THEY were as happy as a fox in a chicken coop. But those of us who were on the other side, we saw people leaving in droves. Guildmates, associates, more and more disappeared as time went on. Many of the closer ones would tell you why they were leaving. "I love the game, but it's just too much crap." Paraphrasing that one. A lot of these players actually like some PvP. They just didn't like it shoved down their throats all the time. They didn't like working for hours only to have it taken away. Not once, not twice, on a regular basis.

as i said, there are ****loads of way to prevent being griefed, i rarely died in the day and i never day today playing a PERFECTLY MATCHING T2A Freeshard. And, as i will remark a lot in this thread, this shard would be a NICHE shard, that would take back a lot of players, but it wouldn't need numbers in the 6 digit to work, not at all.

But it could have numbers like that, with additional shards. There are far more players out there who want that something different, like UO was but without the rampant PKing. But a PK shard, you're fooling yourself if you think a shard with several thousand PKers on wouldn't start causing cancels because all of them can't be at the top of the food chain.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I'll see their inferior soft drinks and raise them a Jones Cream Soda and a snickers bar, come now Cal even a developer has a sweet tooth somewhere, claim your treasure trove of sugar coma goodness.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Ok...forget jail time.


Let's go back to stat loss on death. BUT...you can only burn off murder counts in dungeons. That solves the issue of people UMing off counts. If you have the...nerves...to UM in Deceit...then more power to you!

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

Well, welcome to the thread. Nice to see that someone that just now has gotten involved in the conversation, after some of us have been involved in it for YEARS knows so much about me.

My reason for wanting to play a Classic Shard is because I want the people, the vets, of this game to have a place where they can play the game that we originally signed up for.

If you had bothered to read through this thread, you would understand fully that the two things I do not want to see on a Classic Shard are:

1- Trammel/pvp-switch
2- non consequence PKing.

If you want to play Mr. Big Bad red, then have the nads to live with the consequences.

Unlike yourself, and a handful of others like you, I actually care about the shard not just my own personal benefit.

People like you have come to this thread, and I think that is great. But I think it would be wise for you to actually read it before you come in here throwing out ridiculous attacks like this.

This suggestion is just one of many that have been made in this thread.

Also, if you will go back and actually read the thread, you will see that what we have asked for to be stickied is pretty much what I have advocated for, until we started getting so many PK-types in this thread...that has pretty much convinced me that a shard with only the original penalties will not work if the objective is to re-create a true "Classic Era" feel. The Classic Era had both PvP'ers and non-PvP'ers. To some of you, I guess you are only looking for PvP...so you don't think you care if there are non-PvP'ers on the shard. However, I think once you got a taste of pure PvP, no victims...you would get bored of it pretty quickly. That's what happened in Fel on most shards after the split.

You, and everyone else that comes here seeking to become a PK again on an EA shard has to understand...it won't work. The people playing on a Classic Shard would have choices on where they play, and even what game they play. If a Shard like this is opened up without any meaningful penalties to curb PKing, then you will find yourself with only consensual PvP. No one that doesn't want to PvP will play it. Don't you get it?

uhm i will answer to you to answer to everyone . I never bothered PVPing, i was one of the people being griefed till i switched to being a classy thief, and having LOADS of fun, but i prefered (and prefer) to run and i don't give a damn about pvping! So Trammel was not my fault . I don't want to play a PK on a EA shard, i want a densly populated shard of people that PAYS FOR IT , because stupid kid (many of them at least) don't want to pay just to bother people, believe me!

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

I agree that it is rude to just suddenly show up and take a rude tone. Now back to the matter at hand, Morgana you and I are pretty much working toward the same thing, I just do not want it to go super draconian where pks are concerned and I am only opposed to things that take direct character control away from the player.

You mentioned the npc red hunters I liked that, but perhaps to give the idea a bit more strength add a few more guard posts along certain high traffic areas perhaps?

It is true as well that the more we keep talking about changing things like this the more work it is on the devs and yes to an extent it does start down a slippery slope after a point, but in the case of the pk issue I believe this is one topic where the work is worth doing.

As I see it we are faced with one of two main choices at this point, we can get a majority agreement on these small features we have been discussing or we can ask the devs to just launch classic straight up no changes.

A lot of people will be tempted to say just go classic but every one of us who actually wants this to work needs to keep the larger picture in mind, a shard that just opens up under pure T2A X patch will be fun for a little while but will collapse under the same issues as we have said time and time again.

i can tell you that The shard in which im playing in is in its 2nd year running, and its purely T2A , i don't think it would "collapse" so fastly, i think you people don't really have the larger picture in your mind. As i said it would be a niche shard, not a 10000 players shard! The shard success would be heavily influenced by how the community will make their own game: Player based events and such. Ultima was never on the DEVS shoulder entierly, that's the point you are all missing.
And forgive my rudeness, but i'm waiting for something like this since AoS and im ON FIRE, and i will shout at the top of my lungs to make this happen / be a success

 

[Trebr Drab]

I don't want to play a PK on a EA shard, i want a densly populated shard of people that PAYS FOR IT , because stupid kid (many of them at least) don't want to pay just to bother people, believe me!

Are you kidding me? "Play to Crush". There are enough players who play that way to drive others out of a game. They did it in UO in yester-year, in Shadowbane and on AC's Darktide server between then and now, and in Darkfall today.
Then after they drive the others away, they aren't happy anymore themselves, and start leaving too.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Okay, new idea (well, old ideas repackaged) :

No Jail time. No perma death. Nothing like that...


But, Stat Loss on death...and it is permanent. It lasts until you get your character trained back up. You lose 5% of your stats, and 3% of your skills for every kill you have up to 5. The max penalty is 25% stats, 15% skills. That drops a GM mage back to 85. Not that bad. Could be a lot worse.

You can only burn off the counts in dungeons. So no UMing.

But you can choose 'exile' and be confined to Kaldun for your crimes. While in Kaldun, you can PK till your heart is content, and gain no counts if you are there as an exile...AND you can die all you want with no stat loss. You can choose to leave exile at any time, but you go back to the risk of stat loss.

That gives a PK something to do to burn off counts that removes him/her from the general population. Heck you could even UM in exile if you have someone that is willing to watch your back (and not stab you in it).

It doesn't control anyone's account, because they can freely leave exile at any time.

And it makes Kaldun the roughest dungeon in the game, because the inhabitants have the best AI of all Actual Intelligence!

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Actually, thinking about it, why limit it to just Kalduhn? A red that wanted to burn off counts could just say "I wish to enter exile" ... a gump comes up, and he picks a dungeon...any dungeon. While there in exile, he can run around and kill anyone he sees without getting more counts, and his counts burn off...and he can die without stat loss. Once he wants to leave, he says "I wish to leave exile" and his stat loss protection is gone, and his murder count time stops. He can then go wherever he wants, besides towns other than Buc's Den...cause he's red.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Okay, new idea (well, old ideas repackaged) :

No Jail time. No perma death. Nothing like that...


But, Stat Loss on death...and it is permanent. It lasts until you get your character trained back up. You lose 5% of your stats, and 3% of your skills for every kill you have up to 5. The max penalty is 25% stats, 15% skills. That drops a GM mage back to 85. Not that bad. Could be a lot worse.

You can only burn off the counts in dungeons. So no UMing.

But you can choose 'exile' and be confined to Kaldun for your crimes. While in Kaldun, you can PK till your heart is content, and gain no counts if you are there as an exile...AND you can die all you want with no stat loss. You can choose to leave exile at any time, but you go back to the risk of stat loss.

That gives a PK something to do to burn off counts that removes him/her from the general population. Heck you could even UM in exile if you have someone that is willing to watch your back (and not stab you in it).

It doesn't control anyone's account, because they can freely leave exile at any time.

And it makes Kaldun the roughest dungeon in the game, because the inhabitants have the best AI of all Actual Intelligence!

Hmm. I don't like it, but I do. I can't help but think that something more can be done to put Reds more into the game, in a lore/faction sort of way. Along with the penalties, of course.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Or better yet, make it only certain dungeons. Those would be considered the "advanced dungeons".

 

[Trebr Drab]

Actually, thinking about it, why limit it to just Kalduhn? A red that wanted to burn off counts could just say "I wish to enter exile" ... a gump comes up, and he picks a dungeon...any dungeon. While there in exile, he can run around and kill anyone he sees without getting more counts, and his counts burn off...and he can die without stat loss. Once he wants to leave, he says "I wish to leave exile" and his stat loss protection is gone, and his murder count time stops. He can then go wherever he wants, besides towns other than Buc's Den...cause he's red.

One bad thing about it, an abuse, is that he and friends can kill with impunity, while other friends can then loot.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

It's not a bad idea at all really, I would ask that if we disagree with someones suggestion it seems fitting to offer up an alternative, but I like what Morgana has put together there, it isn't forced on anyone but if you get bored with UMing your counts and want to get back into some action you can choose exile.

It does seem we move further and further away from classic the more these things get talked about, but I didn't name the thread at the start and I probably wouldn't have said classic to begin with.

 

[Trebr Drab]

I think I'd prefer to keep things simple. Stat loss on death. Maybe some modification of that.

But then, I think reds should be given some evil thing to do in game from an evil standpoint.

What I'd really like to see is EM played bad guys, with specific goals, and recruiting reds as part of their army/society. Let the reds risk their penalties, but let them enter the realm of roleplay. (Which may hurt some of them more than the stat loss, heh.) Purely voluntary, of course.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Hmm. I don't like it, but I do. I can't help but think that something more can be done to put Reds more into the game, in a lore/faction sort of way. Along with the penalties, of course.

I think this idea puts them more "in the game" than ever before. No longer will you just see them UMing in houses or standing around as ghosts. They would actually have to be involved...and they would make the 'exile dungeons' even tougher. A dungeon is generally like a prison anyway. It makes more sense that you would find criminals in them than it does, say, rats and slimes and lizardmen.

I kind of picture it like a murderer going 'on the lamb' or hiding out. He goes deep into a dungeon, and hides from the authorities. Meanwhile, he is hunted by people that are looking for him. It encourages PK hunts, it encourages PKs to work together to survive their exile. It builds community on both sides of the fence...and it gives people something to do other than just UM. For exiles, it lets them continue PKing even though they have counts they need to burn off, and it saves them from ever even having to suffer stat loss if they want to.

In some ways, I can see this as being exploitable...as in a PKer kills just enough to go red, then enters exile, and never leaves. So now they can just PK all they want in a certain dungeon. Or even any dungeon if they leave and re-enter exile...so some tweaks to this would definitely be needed.

 

[dinanm3atl]

I agree 100% with Derrick. It is what made the game feel real. You want to go mine the good spots? Well I did that once or twice. And we would go mine and just shoot the **** with 4 or 5... or MORE quality blue players. Reds would pop in and a fun PvP fight would sprout... Or mine in town. You might die. It is the fantasy middle ages... you could have died from getting a cold or died from someone robbing you while you walked to the market.

I just never had the sense that PKing was some terrible thing that was killing the game. I found that during this age that the players were stronger and more willing to sacrifice and deal with hardship. While the game was played by 'kids'(I don't find this to be entirely true) they were of the last generation. Something is different. There is still some toughness to that generation. If you told someone in WoW that had full arena gear that if they were killed in a neutral zone they could be free looted by ANY player. They would FLIP out. Cancel account. Scream to their mom... it would be quite hilarious.

I knew it was risky to take my silver katana of power to kill liches. I knew it was risky to go mining outside covetous. I knew it was risky to sit for hours in lvl 5 covetous with just 1 firend. That is how it goes.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

One bad thing about it, an abuse, is that he and friends can kill with impunity, while other friends can then loot.

True. But they could do that anyway under the T2A rules.

 

[Coldren]

In some ways, I can see this as being exploitable...as in a PKer kills just enough to go red, then enters exile, and never leaves. So now they can just PK all they want in a certain dungeon. Or even any dungeon if they leave and re-enter exile...so some tweaks to this would definitely be needed.

Actually... Go back to the original thought of only one dungeon as an option, and I don't see a problem with this at all.

Put all the PK'ers in one place until their counts are gone.. They can kill each other with impunity... But then again, ANTI-PK's can come and kill them with impunity, no count, and potentially good loot from them.. PK'ers are out of the general population, they are penalized, can be looted, can EASILY be hunted for revenge.... Every one wins.

.. They WILL need a way to equip stuff so we can kill them and loot them again... A bank of some kind... Maybe start a new virtue system for JUSTICE out of that

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I agree 100% with Derrick. It is what made the game feel real. You want to go mine the good spots? Well I did that once or twice. And we would go mine and just shoot the **** with 4 or 5... or MORE quality blue players. Reds would pop in and a fun PvP fight would sprout... Or mine in town. You might die. It is the fantasy middle ages... you could have died from getting a cold or died from someone robbing you while you walked to the market.

I just never had the sense that PKing was some terrible thing that was killing the game. I found that during this age that the players were stronger and more willing to sacrifice and deal with hardship. While the game was played by 'kids'(I don't find this to be entirely true) they were of the last generation. Something is different. There is still some toughness to that generation. If you told someone in WoW that had full arena gear that if they were killed in a neutral zone they could be free looted by ANY player. They would FLIP out. Cancel account. Scream to their mom... it would be quite hilarious.

I knew it was risky to take my silver katana of power to kill liches. I knew it was risky to go mining outside covetous. I knew it was risky to sit for hours in lvl 5 covetous with just 1 firend. That is how it goes.

And none of that would change. No one (well, a couple of people) have asked for this shard to be a no-PK shard. Heck, I wouldn't bother to play on it if it was. What we are asking for, mainly, is that the penalties for playing a PK equal the risks. The results of the old methods proved that this was not the case prior to the launch of UO:R...at any time.

There has to be a happy medium. I think with a little creative thought, and some flexibility from purists, that could be easily done...and the result would still be just like describe, only you won't have quite as many people just killing indiscriminately. You will generally have only the hardcore people that want to play as evil, and suffer the consequences for, killing people.

 

[Derrick83]

Yeah...a shard like that would last about 2-3 months, if that long, before it was a 100% PvP server.

There is nothing about a server like the one you describe that would entice anyone besides pvp'ers to play on it. And we have already seen where the 100% pvp scene goes...just go look around in Fel on any shard. Empty.

I'm sorry, but it is the truth. You know, if this were like April 22, 2000...I might have sort of agreed with what you are saying, but because of what happened on May 4, 2000...and the mass evacuation of Fel that followed...I know better.

Ok you cant say both things. You cant say the server would be a 100% PvP server, and then say that a 100% pvp scene will end up with an empty shard.

First, if you knew WHY Fel is empty it might make more sense. PvP was and is still very popular. Even a year ago when I stopped playing, I as on one of the smaller shards and their were still tons of people PvPing in fel. They dont sit and gate fight anymore(you will see it occasionally) but if you go pop a despise rat spawn I am sure you will get a lot of attention from that active pvp community.

Fel is just as empty as trammel. When I say trammel I mean the main trammel version of Britania(not the additional lands that Fel doesnt have). Go to tram deciet and show me all the people fighting undead there, or the people farming earth elementals in shame? No? That landmass in general is dead because the "good" stuff is in other areas of the game, and reds cant go there.

The reason PvP has taken the player base hit that it has is because the last decent piece of content it received was champ spawns in fel to be the only ones to drop power scrolls. That was July 23 2002 if you were wondering and thats almost 8 years. Let me ask you. If the last update made to trammel was 2002 would you still be playing? Think about that.. no AOS, SE, ML, SA.. no new pets, no new plants, monsters, loot.. just the same old stuff for the last 8 years.. would you still be playing? You will answer yes to make me look bad, but truthfully you would lose interest within 8 years of nothing new coming and move to a new game. If you could eat nothing but you most favorite food, how long would you still like it? Sure.. a couple months would be fine... think about eating ONLY that food and nothing else for 8 years in a row, would you still like that food? No, you would eventually get sick of it and want to move on. Thats what happened to PvP. Fel is the only place to participate and it has not been given any content in 8 years. IT DOES get old if you cant find a new twist to put on it. Look at the game of "tag." You play it when your 10, not so much when your 18... why? It gets played out and boring. However those same 18 year old that wont play tag have a BLAST playing paintball or lazer tag, which are all based on the same principal as "tag" but with a twist that makes that basic concept different and fun.

That is why pvp is a minority in this game, its not bad, and it is not that people think tis stupid and quit.

Again I know their has been a lot of discussion on this, but to me what you are asking seems hypocritical. You say you want a classic shard, which means you have to allow PKing because its part of the classic rules, but then you want to make the penalties for PKing SO severe that no one would risk it because no matter which of the systems I have read about on the past 3 or 4 pages, they all would be completely stupid if you died. You would lose everything or not be able to login for 2 weeks etc...

Their are good reasons to PK too. What if you and your friend are red, and 2 noto blues come up and both attack your friend. Are you going to stand there and watch him die because you cant pick up 2 more counts or join in and help? You would help, and pick up 2 counts. Lets say then those 2 went and got 3 more friends who all precast flamestrike and dump you at once. You die and suffer penalties. So you think that person should not be able to login for 2 extra days because they attacked 2 blues that initiated a fight? Or what about the scripters(because you know they will exist) that are script mining or script chopping? You would give rediculous penalties to reds for killing them too? Yeah maybe you will get killed in minoc mines a few times by some PKs when they will get nothing from you, but thats when you call your friends who come in and stick around for 30 mins because they want to kill the PKs. Again, its part of the game and part of what made the game fun. I would die in the mines, get my friends and get excited and HOPE that PK would recall back into my 3 friends waiting for him so he could get his back! I didnt hate the game, I did what I had to do to be successful within the system and it was fun.

Let things be the way they were. For the record I was not a PK, I was a noto PK. I don't know if I would be a red on this shard, but I know that unless it is allowed with REASONABLE consequences that reds can exist, I will not play, because if their is no reds their will be little to no PvP, and while that would obviously benefit the people who enjoy PvE over PvP, it would NOT benefit the other %% of the players that enjoy PvP instead of PvE and you must consider both. If you said "before it was a 100% PvP server." If their are THAT MANY people out there that WANT to PvP, then you can't ignore them, you have to pay attention to what THEY WANT too because they were a part of the game back then and they deserve a good shard with FAIR rule sets too.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Actually... Go back to the original thought of only one dungeon as an option, and I don't see a problem with this at all.

Put all the PK'ers in one place until their counts are gone.. They can kill each other with impunity... But then again, ANTI-PK's can come and kill them with impunity, no count, and potentially good loot from them.. PK'ers are out of the general population, they are penalized, can be looted, can EASILY be hunted for revenge.... Every one wins.

.. They WILL need a way to equip stuff so we can kill them and loot them again... A bank of some kind... Maybe start a new virtue system for JUSTICE out of that

I'd be concerned that if they only used Khaldun that (a) the place would be so full of reds that no one would ever go there and (b) the place would be so full of reds that the reds wouldn't even like being there.

The idea is to make burning off counts fun. Perhaps we have been thinking about this the wrong way since day 1. If reds kill blues, and then need to burn off the counts, what have they always done? UMed. That's no fun. If you give them something to do, something they enjoy, it will encourage them to play the game more, and it will...at least sometimes...remove them from the general population.

As for re-equipping...they will loot blue players, monsters, each other, etc. That's part of the challenge of exile. If you think about the possibilities of it, people with long exiles might even form guilds in exile. Leaders will rise, gangs, etc. It creates an entirely new part of the game that's like factions or order/chaos...without some artificial reason for being involved in it.

I'd say if the devs were smart, and they ran with this idea, they would make the dungeons that offered the best loot be the ones that are 'exile dungeons'. This is really similar to what they did with Champ Spawns. They had all the PKs in one area (Fel) and added some better loot chance (Powerscrolls) to the areas where all the PKs were. The only difference is, the PKs in Fel couldn't leave. Any player could leave exile anytime they wanted...they just take on an added risk (stat loss on death) when they do.

The idea is not to separate the population though. If we wanted that, we could just do a Tram/Fel split...which I don't think too many people here want.

 

[Evlar]

I think I'd prefer to keep things simple. Stat loss on death. Maybe some modification of that.

But then, I think reds should be given some evil thing to do in game from an evil standpoint.

What I'd really like to see is EM played bad guys, with specific goals, and recruiting reds as part of their army/society. Let the reds risk their penalties, but let them enter the realm of roleplay. (Which may hurt some of them more than the stat loss, heh.) Purely voluntary, of course.

I'd volunteer for that

When I played a red, it was entirely role-playing.

 

[Coldren]

I'd be concerned that if they only used Khaldun that (a) the place would be so full of reds that no one would ever go there and (b) the place would be so full of reds that the reds wouldn't even like being there.

Well, don't make it Khaldun.. Make it the Anti-Virtue dungeon of Justice.. Can't recall which one that is...

But anyway, I'd say make it mandatory after X counts you get transported there and can't leave until you work off your counts...

If the reds don't WANT to end up there, well.. All the better reason not to PK with reckless abandon... Can't think of a more fitting "Punishment", but work in some kind of reward. After you work off your counts, you can build up a positive balance up to a certain amount at a disproportional rate.. Then they can kill a little more without worrying about being sent back as quickly....

I like this more and more...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

You cant say the server would be a 100% PvP server, and then say that a 100% pvp scene will end up with an empty shard.

Sure I can. And I did. And that's exactly what I think would happen.

First, if you knew WHY Fel is empty it might make more sense. PvP was and is still very popular.
...

because the "good" stuff is in other areas of the game, and reds cant go there.

You make a semi-valid argument here. Except that Siege is just about as empty as Fel on other shards, and it has all the "good stuff". (also, if you think that is "good stuff" then you might not enjoy a classic shard so much)

You say you want a classic shard, which means you have to allow PKing because its part of the classic rules, but then you want to make the penalties for PKing SO severe that no one would risk it

No. See this is where you fail to understand me.

I am not asking for it to be so severe that no one would risk it. I am asking for it to be severe enough that not everyone will do it.

There is a middle ground between point A (a full PvP no-consequence shard) and B (a shard with Trammel/Fel). The question is, how close to point A or B does this shard need to be to make sure it never ends up as either A or B.

Let things be the way they were.

Not that any of this is directly up to me or anything...but I will just point out...they tried that already. This time, they need to try something new. I can see no reason why a Classic Shard that just follows the same old path that OSI followed with it won't end up in the exact same shape.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

The punishments aren't supposed to be about retribution or redemption, not every criminal is going to have the desire or care to reform, it's also not about stopping pks altogether.

I like what Morgana has brought forth, I think it's probably one of the few ideas I never even considered, but actually the more I think about it, it would be awesome to hear Cal or someone else on the dev team contribute their thoughts on the matter.

Are we over exaggerating? are those favoring the pk side deluding themselves into thinking there wasn't a problem? or is it as usual a combination of the two?

More than that from a designer point of view what would you suggest Cal? Mark? anyone?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I'd say make it mandatory after X counts you get transported there and can't leave until you work off your counts...

If the reds don't WANT to end up there, well.. All the better reason not to PK with reckless abandon... Can't think of a more fitting "Punishment", but work in some kind of reward. After you work off your counts, you can build up a positive balance up to a certain amount at a disproportional rate.. Then they can kill a little more without worrying about being sent back as quickly....

I like this more and more...

I don't like the idea of making it mandatory. If the red wants to participate, it is in their best interest, but they wouldn't have to. That is one of the biggest issues I have with the Fel/Tram thing. I don't like having people separated from the rest of the population. That's why I quickly agreed that the jail time thing was a bad idea.

 

[dinanm3atl]

And none of that would change. No one (well, a couple of people) have asked for this shard to be a no-PK shard. Heck, I wouldn't bother to play on it if it was. What we are asking for, mainly, is that the penalties for playing a PK equal the risks. The results of the old methods proved that this was not the case prior to the launch of UO:R...at any time.

There has to be a happy medium. I think with a little creative thought, and some flexibility from purists, that could be easily done...and the result would still be just like describe, only you won't have quite as many people just killing indiscriminately. You will generally have only the hardcore people that want to play as evil, and suffer the consequences for, killing people.

Can someone refresh my memory of what the actual oct 98 T2A penalty system was? I didn't want to go red with my best 3 characters because to me the time spent at the time to get out of red wasn't worth it.

 

[Coldren]

I don't like the idea of making it mandatory. If the red wants to participate, it is in their best interest, but they wouldn't have to. That is one of the biggest issues I have with the Fel/Tram thing. I don't like having people separated from the rest of the population. That's why I quickly agreed that the jail time thing was a bad idea.

But then again, what good is a "Punishment" if you an opt out of it?

Stat loss isn't negotiable - Why is that a better solution? It's actually worse, because they can lose far more TIME, especially if it's permanent as you (or someone else) suggested?

Fel/Tram segregated the community because people opted out of a free for all PvP world, to go to where it was safer and easier.

If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to ask for a glass of milk.

Secondly, they're not segregated PERMANENTLY. Players can still go there, and they can eventually leave, but it doesn't split the whole world from server up to server down for all eternity. You can still go back and PK people again, but you'll understand what it means for you if you do. It's not like they can't still play when they're in this dungeon, or lose aspects of their character.

Just sayin'.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Are we over exaggerating? are those favoring the pk side deluding themselves into thinking there wasn't a problem? or is it as usual a combination of the two?

I think it is a combination of the two. I think most of the people that want to come back as PKs want as little restrictions or penalties on that as possible. Same with the people that wanted to PvM...they went so far as to rip the world in two for those people so they could have easy mode.

The idea of a Classic Shard is to get away from easy mode!!

And...think about this, the exile idea, in and of itself does not remove any freedom for anyone that wants to be a PK. In fact, much like the addition of control slots and bonding vs. no control slots, it achieves the same end result, but with different methods.

From the PKs stand point, they get to play evil all they want. It's like all you can eat PK buffet when you are in exile. The only problem is, you are confined to specific dungeons. But you can kill, and kill, and kill, and there are no counts for it, and no stat loss to worry about. You also don't have to worry about getting banned for UMing...and you still get to kill outside of the 'exile dungeons' as much as want...it just means that you will have to spend more time in exile to burn off the counts. (Oh goodness, you mean I have to spend time PKing because I PK'ed too many people?)

From the non-PKs point of view, it retains the challenge, the risk, and that heart pounding feeling you got from seeing reds approaching. But it makes it so that when you are out mining or whatever, you probably won't have to worry about it quite as much, because a red is not as likely to tangle with someone outside of an exile dungeon because he would be running with counts...which means stat loss if he dies. It doesn't mean he won't kill you, it just means he might not.

From the shard's perspective, it gives it something unique that no other shard has...or has ever had.

I don't mean to harp on it, and I know that some people won't like the idea (and a few will say they don't like it even though they didn't even read it)...but I think it is a good base to start with for an excellent, challenging, but fun murder count system that makes more sense than the original did.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

But then again, what good is a "Punishment" if you an opt out of it?

Stat loss isn't negotiable - Why is that a better solution? It's actually worse, because they can lose far more TIME, especially if it's permanent as you (or someone else) suggested?

Well, exile isn't exactly a punishment...its more like an alternative to punishment. The punishment would be stat loss. But instead of UMing for 5 nights while they sleep, they would be logged in and enjoying an aspect of the game that they prefer...PKing.

The reason for the opt out would be so that those that wanted to ignore the possibility of stat loss, and just hope they didn't die, could just go on and do what they wanted and not bother with exile.

If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to ask for a glass of milk.

@Cal_Mythic: Okay, we have cookies and milk on the table now! So it's Pepsi, Twizzlers, Mt. Dew, Kit Kats, Jones Soda, Snickers, and Cookies and Milk (I wouldn't suggest the milk with the Pepsi though)

 

[Coldren]

@Cal_Mythic: Okay, we have cookies and milk on the table now! So it's Pepsi, Twizzlers, Mt. Dew, Kit Kats, Jones Soda, Snickers, and Cookies and Milk (I wouldn't suggest the milk with the Pepsi though)

.. Not what I meant, but I'll throw Pizza on the table too! Can't have soda and candy without pizza.. If you're any kind of respectable person...