A PAH Announcement and Apology!

[NuSair]

I am reminded of an article I read in a computer gaming magazine a couple of years ago. The game was Eve on line. A massive infiltration and back stab that took months to pull off.

It was such a coup, it made the news. The turn over of pixels was enormous. The betrayal and backstabbing made it a sexy story.

In that story, no in game rules were broken I seem to remember. Yet the results were devastating for one "faction".

The guy was the head of a private ingame bank. He took all the money in the bank and sold it for like $5,000? Used it to put a down payment on a house, iirc.

 

[Coragin]

The guy was the head of a private ingame bank. He took all the money in the bank and sold it for like $5,000? Used it to put a down payment on a house, iirc.

lol classic!

 

[AesSedai]

- Sorry, if I stray a bit from the topic, but:

... The anonymity of the internet tends to magnify the output of [what] people are capable of...

- Aye, I agree with that sentiment. Makes me think there are/will be courses at uni focusing on the psychology of people + internet yielding a magnification of impulses. Over the years, I've found it to be a fascinating phenomenon; yet I wonder if it will become known as the norm, rather than a mere aberration...

 

[NuSair]

The guy was the head of a private ingame bank. He took all the money in the bank and sold it for like $5,000? Used it to put a down payment on a house, iirc.

My mistake, he didn't take it ALL

Mega-popular MMO EVE Online prides itself on its realistic, player-controlled economy. In a scarily familiar episode of games-imitating-life, EBank, EVE's largest virtual bank, has been shut down after a former CEO embezzled 200 billion ISK from it.

Known only as "Ricdic," the former CEO is actually a 20-something Australian guy who works in the tech industry, according to Reuters. After he made off with a fat wad of virtual spacebucks, he sold them for about $5000 worth of realbucks, which he used to make a down payment on a house and pay some medical bills. I probably would've used the loot to buy PCP and Taiwanese ladyboys, but to each his own.

When the rest of the EVE community caught wind of the theft, things got a little nasty. According to the New York Times, 5.5 trillion ISK were quickly pulled from EBank, effectively crippling the bank's ability to operate or give out loans. There are about 300,000 EVE users, 130,000 of which had accounts with EBank. With thousands of them clamoring to be refunded in full, some users are appealing directly to the developers for help, but CCP's laissez-faire approach will probably preclude any sort of intervention -- this wouldn't be the first time they've let players sort out their own messes.

Ricdic has been banned from EVE, but not for embezzlement: trading in-game assets for cash is against EVE's terms of service. If he had simply stolen the money and used it in game, he'd still be playing EVE. ""We have never seen ourselves as gods who make the rules of social interaction," said Eyjolfur Gudmundsson, an economics adviser to CCP. "You are able to lose the things you have created. That's what makes the world interesting."

A married father of two, Ricdic says that, while he regrets stealing the money, he would do it again in the same situation: "I saw that as an avenue that could be taken, and I decided to skim off the top, you could say, to overcome real life difficulties."

 

[Lord Frodo]

To all the permissive people defending the 'right' of this scummy thief to do what he did:

Can you PM me with your addresses and a list of times when you won't be home? I'll have someone come and clean you out, since you seem OK with the concept of people taking what’s not theirs.

We'll see how you feel afterwards...

Get a life. We are talking about a game and what the person did in this game is legal. IT IS NOT LEGAL TO DO THIS IN REAL LIFE.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Go to http://www.uoherald.com/news/ and click on Support and you will see "Avoid Scams. If you click on it, it will take you to this page http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_li=&p_sid=veQylRZj&p_sp=&p_faqid=43&p_iid=0&p_created=&p_prod=&p_cat=&p_cv=&p_pv=&p_prods=&p_cats=&prod_lvl1=&prod_lvl2=&prod_lvl3=&cat_lvl1=&cat_lvl2=&cat_lvl3=&p_hidden_prods=&p_search_text=&p_new_search=&p_accessibility=&p_page=&p_lva=43&nextlink=. This is what is says

At some point in time it's possible that in UO, just as in real life, someone will try to scam you out of your hard-earned possessions. A GM can assist you in this case only if game mechanics were exploited to allow the scam. As there are very few exploits of this nature, more often than not the scam is just a scam and a GM will not be able to intervene. An exploit is defined as bypassing normal game mechanics in an unintended manner. If you are in doubt as to which your situation may be a GM can help clarify this. Essentially though, the responsibility is yours to keep your self safe from scamming. Common sense, knowledge and caution are always good in any trade situation.

http://support.uo.com/scam.html

FAQ

What constitutes a scam?

A scam is the act of acquiring item(s) from another player through misinformation, confusion and pressure, or by taking advantage of basic trust. A GM will not be able to intervene in such instances.

What constitutes an exploit?

An exploit is defined as intentionally bypassing normal game mechanics through a bug or other loophole in order to gain an unfair advantage.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Because this issue directly corresponds to RL issues. Come on, give it a break.

I love that somehow the fact that UO is a game excuses behavior like this.

Let me make a direct link since some of you people can't seem to grasp the concept as to why this has bearing...

This game that we all play... we all play it in real life. The connection there is that real life time, effort, and energy (not to mention money) is expended into this "game" that we all play. The behaviors of a single or small group of people in order to cheat others of what is theirs under the auspices of "it's just a game, if I can do it in-game, it's all right" is nothing more than false reasoning.

Sure, maybe EA won't step in and do anything.

The person or people responsible for this travesty though are lucky I'm not in EA's employ, because you better believe I'd be exercising my "for any reason I feel like" clause when I applied the ban hammer.

Stop. Defending. Greaseballs.

 

[Basara]

Here's a way to handle this...

1. Turn off shard transfers temporarily.

2. Take the list of items stolen.

3. Separate the list into unique items, Shard-specific items (other than Pacific), Pacific Event items, and others.

4. Duplicate the shard-specific items on their home shard as lockdowns in the EM center, or in the Museum in Ter Mur (in the same display as the vine cords). Similarly, track down the source of the unique items to what shard they came from, and do the same.

5. Determine the legality of the original acquisition of the other items; those that were of questionable origin get deleted.

6. Make all the non-Pacific-specific items from 4. above go the way of vine cords and neon shouds.

7. What's left, consider making replicas (if there isn't one already) and converting all the ones on Pacific into replicas, no matter how authentic. Set up vendors on all shards, placed by EMs, at the auction start bids for the items, as gold sinks, with the items restocking every UO Day (2 hours).

8. Restore transfers.

 

[Mairut]

I love that somehow the fact that UO is a game excuses behavior like this.

Let me make a direct link since some of you people can't seem to grasp the concept as to why this has bearing...

This game that we all play... we all play it in real life. The connection there is that real life time, effort, and energy (not to mention money) is expended into this "game" that we all play. The behaviors of a single or small group of people in order to cheat others of what is theirs under the auspices of "it's just a game, if I can do it in-game, it's all right" is nothing more than false reasoning.

Sure, maybe EA won't step in and do anything.

The person or people responsible for this travesty though are lucky I'm not in EA's employ, because you better believe I'd be exercising my "for any reason I feel like" clause when I applied the ban hammer.

Stop. Defending. Greaseballs.

Most of us can grasp your reasoning just fine, tyvm.

That doesn't mean we have to agree with you, or your reasoning.

I guess it's easy to be an internet commando with your "the people who are responsible for this travesty are lucky I'm not in EAs employ"... when you're not in a position to actually have to do anything about it, or even understand the reasoning behind their position.


If they (rares collectors) had spent that much time, money and effort to get those items, then they should have been more careful to whom would be entrusted with those items, including asking who would have had access to those items.

Just because you trust someone, doesn't mean that someone else can trust them. Just because the people running the auction felt they could trust someone, doesn't mean that everyone else could.

Quit glossing over the fact that there was more than one party involved in the loss of the items.

If your so attached to items period, real life or not... you need to re-organize your priorities a little bit. Consider yourself extremely luck if you've never had anything stolen.



Fyi...lol... I don't think anyone has actually defended this person. If you read carefully, most have said (myself included) that while we don't agree with what he's done, we also don't think that EA needs to be involved.

If you'd seen one of my replies to this from earlier, you would have noted that I had seen on the pacific shard forum where players were doing an investigation into this matter themselves. I'd say let them do what they're doing, and if they feel that EA needs to be involved, then let them make that call.

 

[shulginist]

Here's a way to handle this...

1. Turn off shard transfers temporarily.

Already off the shard.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

We'll agree to disagree then.

What if... and I don't agree with this at all, I'm just trying to make a point; playing devil's advocate...

What if instead of punishing the scammer, we punish the people who were running the auction for negligence? In my eyes, they are just as much responsible for what happened as the scammer. The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the scammer should be banned. I don't think anyone should be banned over what happened..

Never said they should be banned. Never once used that word in fact. Nice try.

Furthermore, I'm not saying what the scammer did was right. I understand that people are hurt over this. I feel really, really bad for them. I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone I know, nor to me.

I appreciate the fact that the auction staff is trying to make this right...again in case you didn't catch it the first time... I don't think they should be in trouble for negligence... anymore than I think the scammer needs to be for jumping on the opportunity they provided.

The point that I'm trying to make there, is that there are two sides to this. The least you could do is acknowledge that fact.

I get that there are two sides. What you don't get is that it really doesn't matter. The PAH staff is only at fault for trusting this person, and they are doing the right thing and giving gold or items out of their own pocket to make up for it. I’m not going to fault someone for trusting… Could they have chosen better? Obviously. Hindsight is 20/20… It’s also pointless for anything other then learning.

You also seem to not understand how this game was built. When it first came out, things like this were handled by the players. They were treated as outcasts, KOS, whatever else. Since the trammel split, you can't necessarily KOS, but you can refuse them your services... whatever that happens to be.

Give me a break. If you want to play that game, I've been playing UO since the Pre-Alpha, and through both betas. I remember what Fel was like before houses were secure and lockdowns weren't even a glimmer in the Dev team's eye, and I still have two homes there.

But again, that’s not relevant here. Game mechanics aren't at issue. This wasn't a theft done using the stealing skill, or being wily enough to enter someone's home and riffle through their things.

This is about one person being a complete ass and abusing their position of trust to take what they know didn't belong to them. It’s not something to be encouraged, supported, or spoken favorably of.

If you go and look in the pacific shard forums, there are people... PLAYERS... that are investigating this issue themselves. I'm sure after they're done, they'd probably offer full disclosure of who did it if you asked. While we can't accuse people on these boards, it doesn't prevent the word from being spread.

Good for them. Investigation is fun, and I'm glad (and surprised) they were able to get as far as they did.

If you'd like to condemn him up one side and down the other after you find out who it is, be my guest.

Eh, Stratics only follows its own rules when it's convenient for them.

My stance on this whole issue is that there were a number of things that went wrong, but since there was no exploit, then EA has no part in it.

Many things did go wrong. The thief is definitely "more" in the wrong.

One could say that because Mesanna and EM Cyno Razik participated in the fest, they do have a part in it - if only tangential. Also, EA could act like Blizzard does in similar cases and actually support their players for once. I know they won't, though.

If they know who has the items then could very well remove them from the account, although by now they've been spread to the winds.

Whether or not EA does anything is immaterial. What this guy did was wrong. Supporting his actions simply "because it’s possible within the game" is asinine.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

How did they help? Just asking out of pure curiosity. I didn't really follow this until I started hearing about how things went bad.

Mesanna helped with the promotion of the event as did the EMs. Not only did they help with its promotion, but Mesanna handed out event shirts to those helping out including the thief. Of all who then returned the shirts as a compromise, the thief was the only one who did not.

 

[Mairut]

Never said they should be banned. Never once used that word in fact. Nice try.



I get that there are two sides. What you don't get is that it really doesn't matter. The PAH staff is only at fault for trusting this person, and they are doing the right thing and giving gold or items out of their own pocket to make up for it. I’m not going to fault someone for trusting… Could they have chosen better? Obviously. Hindsight is 20/20… It’s also pointless for anything other then learning.




Give me a break. If you want to play that game, I've been playing UO since the Pre-Alpha, and through both betas. I remember what Fel was like before houses were secure and lockdowns weren't even a glimmer in the Dev team's eye, and I still have two homes there.

But again, that’s not relevant here. Game mechanics aren't at issue. This wasn't a theft done using the stealing skill, or being wily enough to enter someone's home and riffle through their things.

This is about one person being a complete ass and abusing their position of trust to take what they know didn't belong to them. It’s not something to be encouraged, supported, or spoken favorably of.




Good for them. Investigation is fun, and I'm glad (and surprised) they were able to get as far as they did.




Eh, Stratics only follows its own rules when it's convenient for them.





Many things did go wrong. The thief is definitely "more" in the wrong.

One could say that because Mesanna and EM Cyno Razik participated in the fest, they do have a part in it - if only tangential. Also, EA could act like Blizzard does in similar cases and actually support their players for once. I know they won't, though.

If they know who has the items then could very well remove them from the account, although by now they've been spread to the winds.

Whether or not EA does anything is immaterial. What this guy did was wrong. Supporting his actions simply "because it’s possible within the game" is asinine.

And I never said that I supported his actions. rolleyes: Have I spoken favorably of it? If it sounded like I had, then I should have worded what I said differently, or made it easier for you to understand. Pretty sure I've covered my bases on that point, however.

Just because I don't agree with the people here who say that EA should be involved, doesn't mean I agree with the scammer. Just because I think that there was more than one party at fault here, doesn't mean that I'm giving high praises to the scammer. I've also said that numerous times, as well.

I've also said that I'm glad that PAH and staff are doing the right thing by trying to make amends.

So you think the only thing that needs to be done is the items being returned to the rightful owners? Don't take that to mean that I'm being accusatory, just trying to figure out what you're saying.

Pretty much all you've said is that you don't think that the scammer should be praised for what he did. Which I haven't really seen anyone do, but that could just be that I saw it and don't remember.

 

[Basara]

Here's a way to handle this...

1. Turn off shard transfers temporarily.

Already off the shard.

Even better...

All the stolen items would then get new ID numbers in the system when they hit the destination. Delete the entire set of numbers from the transfer, then institute the other suggestions.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

And I never said that I supported his actions. rolleyes: Have I spoken favorably of it? If it sounded like I had, then I should have worded what I said differently, or made it easier for you to understand. Pretty sure I've covered my bases on that point, however.

Just because I don't agree with the people here who say that EA should be involved, doesn't mean I agree with the scammer. Just because I think that there was more than one party at fault here, doesn't mean that I'm giving high praises to the scammer. I've also said that numerous times, as well.

I've also said that I'm glad that PAH and staff are doing the right thing by trying to make amends.

So you think the only thing that needs to be done is the items being returned to the rightful owners? Don't take that to mean that I'm being accusatory, just trying to figure out what you're saying.

Pretty much all you've said is that you don't think that the scammer should be praised for what he did. Which I haven't really seen anyone do, but that could just be that I saw it and don't remember.

The thief is being supported by the very fact people are trying to spread the blame to other people, or excuse his actions by saying "it’s only a game" and that game mechanics allow it so it’s “legal”.

People don’t seem to grasp the fact that just because something CAN be done, that’s it’s NOT OK for the person ruin an event and then get away scott free with his ill-gotten gains.

The thief is solely to blame for HIS actions, as I'm sure the PAH staff didn't give him access so he could steal them.

EA has it within their power to give back what he took, or at least whatever can be located – or even delete it so nobody gains. Any further action taken against that person is up to their discretion. It’s their game.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Most of us can grasp your reasoning just fine, tyvm.

That doesn't mean we have to agree with you, or your reasoning.

Funny, since that was my first post in the thread... but thanks for preemptively understanding my reasoning before I've actually posted more than once.

I guess it's easy to be an internet commando with your "the people who are responsible for this travesty are lucky I'm not in EAs employ"... when you're not in a position to actually have to do anything about it, or even understand the reasoning behind their position.

Thank you, Kresken, for presuming that I would have no understanding of the reasoning behind their position. Unfortunately for you, I have actually in the past worked in situations where I was in their position to do something about inappropriate behavior, and I did do something about it.

As for what EA's current position is, neither you nor I have any idea what that position is, because they haven't publicly taken one. I was simply stating what I, personally, would have done. It's sorta okay for me to do that, this being a discussion forum and all.

However, what I will say is that other companies in this specific industry do take things like this seriously, and do take action, whether or not the actions taken by unscrupulous individuals is "legal" from an in-game point of view. There isn't an industry standard, sadly, but one could hope that at very least, the person or persons behind this will be dealt with, regardless of whether those who suffered a loss get anything back.

If they (rares collectors) had spent that much time, money and effort to get those items, then they should have been more careful to whom would be entrusted with those items, including asking who would have had access to those items.

It's funny that there are people who just don't understand that in a game like this that's based around community interactions that people will work together to do things that people as a community can enjoy, participate in, and interact with. Some of this requires you to trust someone. Sure, sometimes you get burned, but you're talking about this as though the rares fest in question hadn't gone off without a hitch several times previously. You know, when something builds a reputation of being trustworthy, people start to trust them.

Just because you trust someone, doesn't mean that someone else can trust them. Just because the people running the auction felt they could trust someone, doesn't mean that everyone else could.

Understood, but what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? You claim to have understood my view, when my view isn't about the people that got ripped off, it's about the person(s) who did the ripping off. There's a bunch of people here defending it as "it's legal because it happened in game," and "it's just a game," and "it's not IRL." My point, that you already "understood," is that just because it's a game doesn't mean there aren't any "IRL" factors involved.

Quit glossing over the fact that there was more than one party involved in the loss of the items.

Quit putting words in my mouth then. I've CONTINUALLY referred to them as "person or persons," because neither you nor I really know what happened, unless of course you're part of what went down. Not an accusation, statement of fact. Unless you know for certain, then you simply are guessing at who all was involved.

Yes, the auction house made a poor choice. They've owned up to it. It DOES NOT make what the perpetrator(s) did okay.

If your so attached to items period, real life or not... you need to re-organize your priorities a little bit. Consider yourself extremely luck if you've never had anything stolen.

Right... I'm sure if you got home from work one night and found that your computer had been stolen that you'd just be like, "You know, I'm not really attached to that computer... I need to reorganize my priorities... it's my fault I had a house with glass windows in it." Seriously... And while you're trying (much like others with your strange viewpoint) to make this all about "Hey, it's just items, the guy only took stuff you shouldn't have trusted people with in the first place," it still doesn't make it right no matter how you color it. I don't know why you and a few others are okay with this kind of behavior, but I suspect it stems from "it's only a game."

Fyi...lol... I don't think anyone has actually defended this person. If you read carefully, most have said (myself included) that while we don't agree with what he's done, we also don't think that EA needs to be involved.

Uh, really? How about Lord Frodo, who's almost waving pompoms in defense? Or Coragin, who seems more concerned about getting this thread onto Pacific forums, and basically advocates it since it was in game and didn't involve hacking? I mean, honestly, you do understand I wasn't responding to everything in the thread, right? But to those who were expressing a viewpoint that was, how shall I say, questionable? In fact, my initial (and only other) response to this thread was about the strange glossing over people do because this is "just a game" and thus cannot possibly correspond to real life issues.

Well, as far as that goes, wrong, ding, thanks for playing anyway.

If you'd seen one of my replies to this from earlier, you would have noted that I had seen on the pacific shard forum where players were doing an investigation into this matter themselves. I'd say let them do what they're doing, and if they feel that EA needs to be involved, then let them make that call.

Okay... I quoted a post by T'Challa, addressing his specific instance of this not relating to RL issues, and somehow you have gone and taken it personally.

Curious.

I wonder why that might be.

 

[Konge]

What happened to this being a game? Oh. People started selling pixels for real money. Now it's another life, where we need a legal system.

It's a game, he didn't break any rules, someone already quotes EA's scam policy. I get it, these are very rare items, worth tons of gold and RL money. Some are even one of a kind. I understand this, but it's just a game at the end of the day. Just pixels. I'm sorry for these people's losses. This isn't real life though people.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

What happened to this being a game? Oh. People started selling pixels for real money. Now it's another life, where we need a legal system.

It's a game, he didn't break any rules, someone already quotes EA's scam policy. I get it, these are very rare items, worth tons of gold and RL money. Some are even one of a kind. I understand this, but it's just a game at the end of the day. Just pixels. I'm sorry for these people's losses.

Thanks for your impeccable timing... at least Mairut will have something else to chew on.

This isn't real life though people.

Yes... you're right... all of us are sitting in front of imaginary computers spending imaginary money as we use our imaginary mouse and imaginary keyboard to play this imaginary game that none of us invest any real time, money, or effort into.

Thank you, Peter Pan.

 

[Mairut]

Funny, since that was my first post in the thread... but thanks for preemptively understanding my reasoning before I've actually posted more than once.

Thank you, Kresken, for presuming that I would have no understanding of the reasoning behind their position. Unfortunately for you, I have actually in the past worked in situations where I was in their position to do something about inappropriate behavior, and I did do something about it.

As for what EA's current position is, neither you nor I have any idea what that position is, because they haven't publicly taken one. I was simply stating what I, personally, would have done. It's sorta okay for me to do that, this being a discussion forum and all.

However, what I will say is that other companies in this specific industry do take things like this seriously, and do take action, whether or not the actions taken by unscrupulous individuals is "legal" from an in-game point of view. There isn't an industry standard, sadly, but one could hope that at very least, the person or persons behind this will be dealt with, regardless of whether those who suffered a loss get anything back.

It's funny that there are people who just don't understand that in a game like this that's based around community interactions that people will work together to do things that people as a community can enjoy, participate in, and interact with. Some of this requires you to trust someone. Sure, sometimes you get burned, but you're talking about this as though the rares fest in question hadn't gone off without a hitch several times previously. You know, when something builds a reputation of being trustworthy, people start to trust them.

Understood, but what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? You claim to have understood my view, when my view isn't about the people that got ripped off, it's about the person(s) who did the ripping off. There's a bunch of people here defending it as "it's legal because it happened in game," and "it's just a game," and "it's not IRL." My point, that you already "understood," is that just because it's a game doesn't mean there aren't any "IRL" factors involved.

Quit putting words in my mouth then. I've CONTINUALLY referred to them as "person or persons," because neither you nor I really know what happened, unless of course you're part of what went down. Not an accusation, statement of fact. Unless you know for certain, then you simply are guessing at who all was involved.

Yes, the auction house made a poor choice. They've owned up to it. It DOES NOT make what the perpetrator(s) did okay.

Right... I'm sure if you got home from work one night and found that your computer had been stolen that you'd just be like, "You know, I'm not really attached to that computer... I need to reorganize my priorities... it's my fault I had a house with glass windows in it." Seriously... And while you're trying (much like others with your strange viewpoint) to make this all about "Hey, it's just items, the guy only took stuff you shouldn't have trusted people with in the first place," it still doesn't make it right no matter how you color it. I don't know why you and a few others are okay with this kind of behavior, but I suspect it stems from "it's only a game."

Uh, really? How about Lord Frodo, who's almost waving pompoms in defense? Or Coragin, who seems more concerned about getting this thread onto Pacific forums, and basically advocates it since it was in game and didn't involve hacking? I mean, honestly, you do understand I wasn't responding to everything in the thread, right? But to those who were expressing a viewpoint that was, how shall I say, questionable? In fact, my initial (and only other) response to this thread was about the strange glossing over people do because this is "just a game" and thus cannot possibly correspond to real life issues.

Well, as far as that goes, wrong, ding, thanks for playing anyway.

Okay... I quoted a post by T'Challa, addressing his specific instance of this not relating to RL issues, and somehow you have gone and taken it personally.

Curious.

I wonder why that might be.

My apologies, I didn't see that you were quoting other people.

You're right about everything, you have an honorable opinion on the matter, and there is no grey area to you, nor should anyone else be allowed an opinion that differentiates from yours.

Congratulations, you win teh internets because you managed to beat me down with a wall of text, and I can't be bothered to care what your opinion on the matter is, because it means I'd have to read all of it.

At least you used paragraphs.

I stated what I came here to state, if you don't care for it... oh well.

Since you seem to take a vested interest in what my opinion on the matter is, even now, and intend to lure me to your side with cookies or drag me screaming and kicking, you have my blessings to carry on with the aforementioned beat-down.

(In other words, it's late and I'm tired) rolleyes:

 

[Konge]

Yes... you're right... all of us are sitting in front of imaginary computers spending imaginary money as we use our imaginary mouse and imaginary keyboard to play this imaginary game that none of us invest any real time, money, or effort into.

Thank you, Peter Pan.

You know very well what I'm referring to.

Being a smart ass doesn't give you brownie points. Just makes me use the noun "princess" to describe you more.

UO is a virtual world that you play a part in. It's not real. You loosing a soul stone doesn't mean you can't effectively make gold at work right? Or do you need to put on necromancy to survive your boses greater poison spaming while you leech health while trying to maintain perfection?

Time you spend in voluntary, your reward for this is fun. You play an online game, there are griefers in every online community, as well as scammers. But the magical thing is, no mater what you lost in the game, it's still a game.

You don't loose the ability to pay your electric bill because you lost your one of a kind golden chipmunk scuplture. The only real currency you put in to this game is the subscription fee, and paying for pixel crack. If you choose to pay for pixel crack, that's fine with you. But you're starting to put real life value on items you can never obtain in real life and are lose do to what can be seemingly random events, scams, or quiting.

But it still remains a game, you're never going to walk down the street and wish you brought your 100% cold damage weapon because a pissed off greater dragon is just chilling next to your car and they put that damn opening door delay to prevent people from insta-driving.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

My apologies, I didn't see that you were quoting other people.

You're right about everything, you have an honorable opinion on the matter, and there is no grey area to you, nor should anyone else be allowed an opinion that differentiates from yours.

Congratulations, you win teh internets because you managed to beat me down with a wall of text, and I can't be bothered to care what your opinion on the matter is, because it means I'd have to read all of it.

At least you used paragraphs.

I stated what I came here to state, if you don't care for it... oh well.

Since you seem to take a vested interest in what my opinion on the matter is, even now, and intend to lure me to your side with cookies or drag me screaming and kicking, you have my blessings to carry on with the aforementioned beat-down.

(In other words, it's late and I'm tired) rolleyes:

This response will be quicker:

You got bent out of shape because I responded to someone else, and put words in my mouth.

*shrug*

If that's what it takes for you to make a point, go for it.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

You know very well what I'm referring to.

Being a smart ass doesn't give you brownie points. Just makes me use the noun "princess" to describe you more.

Yes, I know the narrow-minded "this is just a game" opinion that you're referring to.

I simply disagree that "it's just a game" is a valid argument.

We all spend real money and invest real time and effort into this game. And, you know, it might just be pixels, but there are companies out there with names like Microsoft, Sony, Blizzard, EA, who make billions and billions and billions of dollars off of selling you, me, and thousands, and millions of people those pixels.

Of course, the "it's just a game" argument is why some people are okay with shoddy customer service, incomplete or buggy systems, and so forth.

Fine... it's a game. But there's a difference between Monopoly and Ultima Online.

By the way... if you're going to refer to me as royalty, at least call my by my proper title. That's Queen to you, honey.

 

[Konge]

Yes, I know the narrow-minded "this is just a game" opinion that you're referring to.

I simply disagree that "it's just a game" is a valid argument.

We all spend real money and invest real time and effort into this game. And, you know, it might just be pixels, but there are companies out there with names like Microsoft, Sony, Blizzard, EA, who make billions and billions and billions of dollars off of selling you, me, and thousands, and millions of people those pixels.

Of course, the "it's just a game" argument is why some people are okay with shoddy customer service, incomplete or buggy systems, and so forth.

Fine... it's a game. But there's a difference between Monopoly and Ultima Online.

By the way... if you're going to refer to me as royalty, at least call my by my proper title. That's Queen to you, honey.

So movies are real too right? Because you pay for them, watch them, buy popcorn, buy the DVDs. Actually, that makes Monopoly real, as well as checkers, since you pay for them.

Damn, Chris actually sunk my battle ship, *******.

Board games, you buy them, you play a game that's not reality with other people.

UOs different because you can buy accessories with your money and because it's rounds last much longer?

 

[Heartseeker]

I think something we all need to get a grip on is that this is a game. You can play a "D-bag" if you like, and not be a "D-bag" irl...

There is a big difference between playing 'evil' either in an RP sense, or as a murderer, and being a D-bag.

The D-bags of the game are the griefers, scammers, and hackers. People for whom the concept of civility and responsibility are forever out of reach.

If you play as a D-bag in the game, you *might* not be one IRL - but I doubt it. The anonymity of the internet tends to magnify the output of cruelty these people are capable of. Yes this is a game, but simply accepting this kind of behavior without challenge will allow it to continue to escalate.

This isn't game issue, its a psychology issue. People are jerks. This thief is a jerk.

Why do you want to tolerate jerks?

People tolerate you don't they?

 

[Mairut]

This response will be quicker:

You got bent out of shape because I responded to someone else, and put words in my mouth.

*shrug*

If that's what it takes for you to make a point, go for it.

Not at all. You were talking about a "permissive attitude", and llewen wasn't the only one expressing the opinion:

"I certainly don't admire what was done, but I will defend another player's right to do it."

That is what you are talking about, right? Just to be clear.

I had made that same point before you ever said anything about allowing the scammer to do what he did because of a permissive attitude. Post #50 in this thread, to be exact.

I think I may have quoted llewen in that same post, saying I agree with them. Or quoted someone who had said they also agree with llewen... whichever it happens to be.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings by taking an interest in a post of yours that seemed relevant to myself, even though you hadn't quoted me directly.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

People tolerate you don't they?

Oh, haha, funny.

They apparently tolerate you too.

If you want to play with those kinds of people, more power to you.

Do it somewhere else though.

 

[Sarsmi]

So did the guy who grabbed all the stuff get banned or what? I read somewhere else he did but I didn't see anything that wasn't second hand.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Not at all. You were talking about a "permissive attitude", and llewen wasn't the only one expressing the opinion:

"I certainly don't admire what was done, but I will defend another player's right to do it."

That is what you are talking about, right? Just to be clear.

I had made that same point before you ever said anything about allowing the scammer to do what he did because of a permissive attitude. Post #50 in this thread, to be exact.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings by taking an interest in a post of yours that seemed relevant to myself, even though you hadn't quoted me directly.

...

I believe you have confused RaDian with me... I was the one who mentioned a permissive attitude toward the thief's actions.

And still, sorry, but there is no defense acceptable for his actions. And if you really do wish to defend him...thats just...sad. Since, once again, theft is not a right.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

So movies are real too right? Because you pay for them, watch them, buy popcorn, buy the DVDs. Actually, that makes Monopoly real, as well as checkers, since you pay for them.

Damn, Chris actually sunk my battle ship, *******.

Board games, you buy them, you play a game that's not reality with other people.

UOs different because you can buy accessories with your money and because it's rounds last much longer?

Okay... let's use your movies example. I go to the movies, I buy popcorn, I sit down and start watching the movie. A guy two seats over, leans over, and takes a handful of popcorn. My fault for bring it in, right?

I mean, it's strange the correlations you're making here. The argument that it's okay to have done this simply because it's a game is invalid. Period. I'm not sure how there is a problem with that as being fact.

 

[Viper09]

So did the guy who grabbed all the stuff get banned or what? I read somewhere else he did but I didn't see anything that wasn't second hand.

Nothing has been done at all. Said "thief" still has the rares.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Not at all. You were talking about a "permissive attitude", and llewen wasn't the only one expressing the opinion:

"I certainly don't admire what was done, but I will defend another player's right to do it."

What gets me here is you don't even know what you're responding to or what I've responded to. The initial post you responded to of mine -- my only post in this thread at that point -- was quoting T'Challa, who stated, "Because this issue directly corresponds to RL issues. Come on, give it a break."

My whole argument has been about that argument being invalid... the argument that just because this is a game that suddenly it's okay to have done what was done.

I haven't responded to llewen, and haven't said anything about a "permissive attitude."

You know, they actually put quote and reply buttons on each individual post. You wouldn't think it would be so hard to read a post, digest it, and then respond appropriately to it.

But then, using the logic of some folks, I expect too much. After all, this isn't real life... it's just a message board.

 

[LordDrago]

While I do not, personally, condone this player(s) actions in perpetuating this scam, I do not believe the individuals involved committed an offense that EA/Mythic should take action against them personally, nor their accounts.

What is the difference between what happened at the Pacific Rares Festival, and someone in my guild entering my house and taking my stuff? Both happened because someone not worthy of trust was afforded it.

Scamming has been a part of UO from the very beginning. New players being lured out of guard zones by many means, guild scams, etc., and most players are aware of this, and conduct their ingame conduct accordingly.

The only difference between this particular scam, and the thousands of previous scams in UO, is the scale.

Too many arguments on both sides have been made so far in this thread to address individually, but some thoughts I have had:

I seem to remember when the huge bruhaha over the event shirts given out was going on, that it was mentioned that the shirts would allow individuals bringing rares and such to the shard would be able to distinguish between scammers and true event staff. Somone else mentioned that just because someone had a shirt did not mean that they where trustworty, if I also remember correctly. Obviously, this was correct. Insufficient vetting was done of the staff, and more specifically, of the individuals involved in the auction.

While I do not condone the actions of the scammer, the scamming is not against the rules. Even in Trammel, people must be wary (just a slightly different wary than in fel). Too many people view trammel as "carebear land". In some aspects it is not as dangerous, however this makes many people drop their guard, and as a result, scamming is "easier" in trammel than it is in fel. The scammer here took advantage of that.

Oh, and RL vs. online play? I cannot believe this is even being debated here. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. infering or even stating that this scam is wrong in RL because it deprived people of their work/money/etc? Seriously? Well hell then, the PK that took my armor did the same thing. Oh wait, I was in fel, and i know that entering fel has its risks? So does trusting someone in trammel with your items, or your house, etc..

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I just read this post, as I thought it didn't concern me. But, to my opinion...

• The reason why this happened and why it was such a disaster is that items in game have too much value (real value).
  
• As much as I understand the frustration on the side of those who organized this great event and those who lost their items... The thief did not exploit any bug or loophole. He "just" betrayed their trust. And honestly people, that's nothing that could be remotely punished by any GM.
  
• This incident just confirms my attitude to not play the game only for items, but for fun and community instead.

And please, don't compare this to a RL theft. While concerning ethics the act is similar, this still is a game, and we all know the conditions and terms this game is subject to.

P.S.: To avoid all this item madness and the scams, I'd make all very valuable items account bound. It is total nonsense to trade in-game items for so much gold or RL money.

 

[LordDrago]

I believe you have confused RaDian with me... I was the one who mentioned a permissive attitude toward the thief's actions.

And still, sorry, but there is no defense acceptable for his actions. And if you really do wish to defend him...thats just...sad. Since, once again, theft is not a right.

Theft is not a right, but it is a skill. Do you defend people stealing powerscrolls at champ spawns? I put a lot of effort into working up my characters, getting the right gear, paying my accoutns, etc, just to have someone steal my stuff?

Oh wait, but I stepped in fel and there are risks, right. Well guess what, there are also risks in trammel. Different risks to be sure, but they are there.

 

[ohmyGED]

**NOTE** --- this is a response based on information directed towards me as a proposed suspect in the Rare Festival fiasco (posted previously on the Pacific Forum as I was called out):



Well, this is a shock to me. I am in the process of moving and now hearing about a pretty huge scandal that occurred during the Rare Festival. For those who want to implicate me due to prior events or a falling out of some sort, feel free. You know who you are....someone who attempts to post evidence....although ICQ / AIM logs with messages to me and no responses back don't really mean much...

Just because I am a thief in game doesn't mean much more than that, but you can all choose what you want to believe.

It sounds to me that a particular thief became a bit to power hungry, and since he wasn't a part of what was consider the best heist in UO history, he became rather jealous....jealous to the point that he would betray someone that out did him. He even would state that:

"...IT WOULD BE A HONOR TO HAVE ANY AFFILIATION WITH THIS (censored)"

But as soon as he is not apart of the grand scheme, he tries to rat someone out by pointing false evidence, and then will turn around and say:

"We will try to get all items back to all the players that lost them'


Sounds pretty much like a hypocrite....and i'm sure he will get his.



-Oblivion

 

[Kiminality]

Okay... let's use your movies example. I go to the movies, I buy popcorn, I sit down and start watching the movie. A guy two seats over, leans over, and takes a handful of popcorn. My fault for bring it in, right?

Not to support the "just a game" argument... But a more accurate analogy would be if you went to watch the movie in a group, and you left the popcorn accessible to everyone, and a new member of the group (if I read the situation right) walks off with it.
Only the popcorn would have to be made of gold-pressed latinum or something, to have a similar relative value, in an event-damaging sense.

 

[Mairut]

I believe you have confused RaDian with me... I was the one who mentioned a permissive attitude toward the thief's actions.

And still, sorry, but there is no defense acceptable for his actions. And if you really do wish to defend him...thats just...sad. Since, once again, theft is not a right.

Oi vay! A thousand apologies I'm glad I asked.

My opinion is still the same on the matter. I don't think anybody was defending them.

Funny how he accuses me of jumping in to make a point and getting bent out of shape, when the first post I can find from him on this thread is him telling T'Challa that some people can't get a grasp on the issue...

And T'Challa had been quoting you on the RL=UO? idea, when RaDian had quoted them, thus the reason for the mix-up.

 

[Mairut]

Nope. Reason for the mix-up is in my last post. ^^^^

Like I said before, it's late and I'm tired. At this point, you'll have to excuse me for a simple mistake

What gets me here is you don't even know what you're responding to or what I've responded to. The initial post you responded to of mine -- my only post in this thread at that point -- was quoting T'Challa, who stated, "Because this issue directly corresponds to RL issues. Come on, give it a break."

My whole argument has been about that argument being invalid... the argument that just because this is a game that suddenly it's okay to have done what was done.

I haven't responded to llewen, and haven't said anything about a "permissive attitude."

You know, they actually put quote and reply buttons on each individual post. You wouldn't think it would be so hard to read a post, digest it, and then respond appropriately to it.

But then, using the logic of some folks, I expect too much. After all, this isn't real life... it's just a message board.

It doesn't help that you and Martyna have taken a very similar stance on this issue.

To all the permissive people defending the 'right' of this scummy thief to do what he did:

Can you PM me with your addresses and a list of times when you won't be home? I'll have someone come and clean you out, since you seem OK with the concept of people taking what’s not theirs.

We'll see how you feel afterwards...

Because this issue directly corresponds to RL issues. Come on, give it a break.

Because this issue directly corresponds to RL issues. Come on, give it a break.

I love that somehow the fact that UO is a game excuses behavior like this.

Let me make a direct link since some of you people can't seem to grasp the concept as to why this has bearing...

This game that we all play... we all play it in real life. The connection there is that real life time, effort, and energy (not to mention money) is expended into this "game" that we all play. The behaviors of a single or small group of people in order to cheat others of what is theirs under the auspices of "it's just a game, if I can do it in-game, it's all right" is nothing more than false reasoning.

Sure, maybe EA won't step in and do anything.

The person or people responsible for this travesty though are lucky I'm not in EA's employ, because you better believe I'd be exercising my "for any reason I feel like" clause when I applied the ban hammer.

Stop. Defending. Greaseballs.

I had quoted a post that said someone agreed with llewen, martyna quoted llewen, T'challa quoted martyna, and you quoted T'Challa.

Capiche?

 

[Lord Frodo]

Uh, really? How about Lord Frodo, who's almost waving pompoms in defense?

You need to back up.
#1 Nowhere did I say I supported this player and his actions.
#2 People are calling for banning and or EA replacing the items.

You need to read the rules of the game you are playing and if you don't like the rules then maybe you should go home.

What this player did was legal by the rules of UO.
Sorry some people lost thier stuff but EA can not replace this stuff or they will have to do it for every player that gets coned/scammed. I have been here for 12 yrs and scamming has always been a part of UO weather I like it or not. It is EAs rules and EAs game and if EA says it is legal to con/scam then this player did nothing illegal. So stop calling for bans or replacment of items.

This is not real life I don't care what anybody says. It's a game and we play by EAs rules, not yours, not mine or anybodys elses.

WE PLAY BY EAs RULES. Grow up and quit your whining.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Scamming has been a part of UO from the very beginning. New players being lured out of guard zones by many means, guild scams, etc., and most players are aware of this, and conduct their ingame conduct accordingly.

The only difference between this particular scam, and the thousands of previous scams in UO, is the scale.

I've already, I think, sufficiently stated my belief on the remainder of your post, so I'll save us all a rehash of that. Not trying to be rude, just figure enough's enough at some point.

What I do want to tackle is this small portion...

Twelve plus years ago, this game was released to the public, and early on, it was decided that players would police themselves. By and large, the game let players make mistakes, prey on each other, and so forth.

But the developers soon realized that it was a minority of players that was affecting a vast majority of players, and that if they didn't do something, they'd lose a huge chunk of their subscriber base. Thus, Trammel was born.

In the time since, they've also made changes to the game to do things like warn new players that handing over that hairstyle coupon might be a bad idea unless they're being handed a nice sum of gold. They put in the default guild-accept-off setting so that new players wouldn't be invited into guilds and then killed repeatedly.

In short, the game has adapted to try to curb the efforts of the jackass few to have their antisocial gameplay fun at the expense of others.

But there are some things you just can't program for, and conning people into trusting you is one of them.

Yes, I get that people should be held responsible for their actions. The auction house has already stood up for their culpability. Yes, everyone who trusted the auction house has a small measure just by virtue that they trusted the auction house, but it's such a minute measure that it doesn't really count. In life, you have to be cautious, but you get no where if you trust absolutely no one.

What the final piece of the puzzle is, the one that personally, I hope EA -- if not for this specific event -- develops a better policy for is putting that final piece of culpability on the culprits of stuff like that. The system should not reward being a jackass, plain and simple. Something like this affects many people. I won't go out on a limb and exaggerate to the point of "ruining the game for everyone involved," because personally, I don't think anyone's game was ruined by this -- their day, maybe even week was probably adversely affected, but they'll move on.

But that guy sitting over there in the corner, laughing, planning his next con because he got away with it once... twice... who knows how many times... that's the guy who needs to be shut down.

Yes, this is a game. But real life actions should have real life consequences.

 

[Konge]

Okay... let's use your movies example. I go to the movies, I buy popcorn, I sit down and start watching the movie. A guy two seats over, leans over, and takes a handful of popcorn. My fault for bring it in, right?

I mean, it's strange the correlations you're making here. The argument that it's okay to have done this simply because it's a game is invalid. Period. I'm not sure how there is a problem with that as being fact.

Didn't say it was right. I'm not defending anyone. I'm saying, this is just a game at the end of the day. You're putting words in my mouth, the most POSITIVE thing I said was he didn't do anything that broke EA's rules.

You're personal vendetta against him seems to be clouding your ability to see what is actually being said.

Or you just didn't feel the need to actually read what I typed.

I'm only making "strange comparisons." Because you seem to think that video games = real life because you pay for them.

Doesn't work that way. See, turns out, eventually the owners of these items will quit, or the game will be shut down. I'm not saying the game is doomed, I'm stating that EVENTUALLY somewhere down the line, it will be. That's inevitable. So when it's closed down, you're going to sue EA for scamming your money for pixel crack you can no longer look at?

At a certain point you just have to back away and realize, this is just a game. It's meant to be fun. Dwelling on a lost item, no matter the value, ruins your expirence, thus, ruining the point of even playing the game.

Apparently, this is simply too logical and you must refute this.


Also, in your analogy, that would be , the new person walks away with the popcorn you bought, and the theater banning him from ever coming back.

 

[Goodmann]

I say go for it! Pursue this to the fullest. People lost out on $1000's and there is someone to blame. This could be the first US case "You got put in jail over a virtual crime?"
If nothing comes of it you can always knock on his door.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

While I do not, personally, condone this player(s) actions in perpetuating this scam, I do not believe the individuals involved committed an offense that EA/Mythic should take action against them personally, nor their accounts.

The rares should be deleted or returned. That would satisfy all parties concerned.

What is the difference between what happened at the Pacific Rares Festival, and someone in my guild entering my house and taking my stuff? Both happened because someone not worthy of trust was afforded it.

The difference there is that it would effect you and your guild, a comparatively small number. Also, the fact that this was a rather large event that a great many people, not just the rares fanatics, were looking forward to. EA even chose this as the first player run event that it would materially support (tunics, EM time (paid or not), etc.)

The perpetrator of this theft, no its not a scam, is apparently one of the main organizers. He was certainly quite visible throughout the event... So.. trust.. yeah.. It's an issue, but crap happens anyway. Trust is not an excuse.

Scamming has been a part of UO from the very beginning. New players being lured out of guard zones by many means, guild scams, etc., and most players are aware of this, and conduct their ingame conduct accordingly.

The only difference between this particular scam, and the thousands of previous scams in UO, is the scale.

Uhm. No. Scamming is not "part of the game. Not now, not ever. A part of the game would be a skill, using game mechanics. Scams have happened because a great many people become total D-bags due to internet anonymity. Nothing more.

EA can't protect us from every scam, but they have thrown in a LOT of warning gumps and such over the years to at least educate the newcomers .

Too many arguments on both sides have been made so far in this thread to address individually, but some thoughts I have had:

I seem to remember when the huge bruhaha over the event shirts given out was going on, that it was mentioned that the shirts would allow individuals bringing rares and such to the shard would be able to distinguish between scammers and true event staff. Somone else mentioned that just because someone had a shirt did not mean that they where trustworty, if I also remember correctly. Obviously, this was correct. Insufficient vetting was done of the staff, and more specifically, of the individuals involved in the auction.

I was one of those people.. Sad to see that those threads were so prescient.

While I do not condone the actions of the scammer, the scamming is not against the rules. Even in Trammel, people must be wary (just a slightly different wary than in fel). Too many people view trammel as "carebear land". In some aspects it is not as dangerous, however this makes many people drop their guard, and as a result, scamming is "easier" in trammel than it is in fel. The scammer here took advantage of that.

That argument doesn't even remotely hold water. Again this person stole from the community. Not just pixels, or potential IRL money... He stole the trust of the community, tarnished the festival, and ruined the event for MANY people.

Oh, and RL vs. online play? I cannot believe this is even being debated here. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. infering or even stating that this scam is wrong in RL because it deprived people of their work/money/etc? Seriously? Well hell then, the PK that took my armor did the same thing. Oh wait, I was in fel, and i know that entering fel has its risks? So does trusting someone in trammel with your items, or your house, etc..

Sorry, even in Fel you have insurance. If you didn't ensure your suit that’s your own damn fault - and you know it.

The guy didn't steal the rares for any in game reason. He stole them for IRL gains. Monetary gains. So yeah, this is a real life issue too.

Just because this is a game doesn’t give you license to be a jackass. If you think it does, its YOU has the problem.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

You need to back up.
#1 Nowhere did I say I supported this player and his actions.
#2 People are calling for banning and or EA replacing the items.

You need to read the rules of the game you are playing and if you don't like the rules then maybe you should go home.

What this player did was legal by the rules of UO.
Sorry some people lost thier stuff but EA can not replace this stuff or they will have to do it for every player that gets coned/scammed. I have been here for 12 yrs and scamming has always been a part of UO weather I like it or not. It is EAs rules and EAs game and if EA says it is legal to con/scam then this player did nothing illegal. So stop calling for bans or replacment of items.

This is not real life I don't care what anybody says. It's a game and we play by EAs rules, not yours, not mine or anybodys elses.

WE PLAY BY EAs RULES. Grow up and quit your whining.

Yeah yeah yeah... you've been here for 12 years, I've been here for 12 years... we've both seen the game adapt and change and all that jazz.

I didn't ask for items to be replaced, I simply said that regardless of whether items were replaced or not, something should be done to the culprit(s).

It's funny that you're not advocating it, but me having an opinion that the guy should be banned is "whining."

I can't imagine where I got the idea you were waving pompoms. If it helps any, you look great in a mini-skirt.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I'm only making "strange comparisons." Because you seem to think that video games = real life because you pay for them.

I don't believe that video games = real life if you mean that I think what happens in game happens in real life. I suspect you know that I don't think I'm going to recall to work or fireball my boss.

However, the person(s) who perpetrated this made decisions to screw people out of stuff. That decision, regardless of this being a game, was made in real life, and had real life consequences.

If you don't understand that nuance, that's fine... but it is a distinction that many of you are glossing over with "it's just a game."

Also, in your analogy, that would be , the new person walks away with the popcorn you bought, and the theater banning him from ever coming back.

And you know what, that would be an appropriate response from the theater.

 

[Lord Frodo]

I say go for it! Pursue this to the fullest. People lost out on $1000's and there is someone to blame. This could be the first US case "You got put in jail over a virtual crime?"
If nothing comes of it you can always knock on his door.

Go for it. EA will be sitting at the defence table. You name one law this person broke. He did not hack anything. He did not use any illegal program. He did not use an exploit. He did use legal game play and you agree to those rules everytime you log into UO.

You people need to get real.

And if you know this person and go to his house and do anything to him then you have broken some real laws and you can enjoy you real time in a real jail.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

I believe you have confused RaDian with me... I was the one who mentioned a permissive attitude toward the thief's actions.

And still, sorry, but there is no defense acceptable for his actions. And if you really do wish to defend him...thats just...sad. Since, once again, theft is not a right.

Theft is not a right, but it is a skill. Do you defend people stealing powerscrolls at champ spawns? I put a lot of effort into working up my characters, getting the right gear, paying my accoutns, etc, just to have someone steal my stuff?

Oh wait, but I stepped in fel and there are risks, right. Well guess what, there are also risks in trammel. Different risks to be sure, but they are there.

Der.. No.. Have you not been following what happened? The stealing skill wasn't used at all.. And to equate this theft to the use of the stealing skill makes no sense.

Had this guy walked up to you in Fel, snooped, and then used the stealing skill to snag a rare from someone (or a power scroll) then more power to them... Thats using actual game mechanics as they were designed. You were in Fel, thats part of risk vs reward in that ruleset.

This guy pretended to be something he obviously (after the fact) wasn't, and stole billions worth (in gold) of rares that were set up for an event that many people were looking forward to and was pretty much the centerpiece of the Rares Event.

Anyone who defends this guy's actions is just as bad a he is...

 

[Gus of Llanowar]

*pokes head in*

(Oh, Trammel.)

*quietly leaves*

LOL

 

[Lord Frodo]

However, the person(s) who perpetrated this made decisions to screw people out of stuff. That decision, regardless of this being a game, was made in real life, and had real life consequences.

So under your reasoning you make a real life decision to kill me in UO. Then you need to go to a real jail for life because this really happened because you made a real life decision and killed someone.

You can't have it both ways on this either. If stealing/conning/scamming has real life consequences because you made the decision in real life then so does killing someone in UO because you made that decision in real life.

 

[Konge]

I don't believe that video games = real life if you mean that I think what happens in game happens in real life. I suspect you know that I don't think I'm going to recall to work or fireball my boss.

However, the person(s) who perpetrated this made decisions to screw people out of stuff. That decision, regardless of this being a game, was made in real life, and had real life consequences.

If you don't understand that nuance, that's fine... but it is a distinction that many of you are glossing over with "it's just a game."

And you know what, that would be an appropriate response from the theater.

A person you invited, stealing your popcorn, would get banned from a theater?

Oi. You see, the theater is owned by someone, they sold you the popcorn. Transaction done. Law Enforcement, enforces laws.

Ea is the theater, you ate the person who was stolen from, the popcorn is the rare, and the movie itself is the rares festival.

However, EA still owns both items, the ownership is never actually given up, so no actual theft is given. That would be more akin to a 3D movie, except you're forced to recycle the glasses. You buy them to enjoy the movie, someone steals your glasses, they still recycle them, so the theater keeps possession of them.

Yes, I know it's not a perfect analogy, it's almost 3am, I'm sick, haven't slept in a while. Gimmie a break.

Yes, they scammed someone. I know this. I understand this. I'm sorry for the victims. Yes, they're probably gonna sell the items for RL cash. There's nothing you can say that's going to get my an epiphany of "Oh, I haven't thought about that!" I've lost things, I've been scammed. I was upset. I understand. (Though in my case, it was actually via an exploit at the time, so actually would be illegal, but I digress).

But, although this individual obviously did something morally wrong and should be punished. It's against EAs policy to step in. What about all the houses that were scammed from by cleaver theives in UOs early days, do we give those back? All the items lost over the years, we give those back too, right?

EA can change their policy, but that opens an entire can of worms, and actually doesn't solve the issue as, at the time, the new policy wasn't in effect for the con artist.

And, no matter how much you want to put it, this is just a game. It has a community, yes, so does chess, so do those ever popular trading card games. The end of the day it is one, and the object is to have fun. Getting scammed isn't fun, but dwelling on it is even less fun.