A PAH Announcement and Apology!

[GalenKnighthawke]

I don't understand why the undeniably true fact that the auction house should have known better somehow becomes an excuse for the fact that it was done at all.

The auction house's post is quite clearly a claiming of responsibility and a claim to make amends.

They clearly have, and admit to having, responsibility for putting someone untrustworthy on staff.

But they didn't make anyone steal from them.

They just screwed up and gave the wrong person the key to the house. It doesn't make the stealer any less of a stealer.

-Galen's player

 

[Chad Sexington]

Same thing happened in Felucca.

Yes you could kill them, but they almost always had more friends than you did. Most people are wretched by nature, and it's always easier to get people to come together for ill than for good.

*shrugs*

Honestly this "argument" that it's somehow Trammel's fault is so far from reality it'd be almost laughable were it not pathetically part of so many posters' repertoire that its achieved recognition despite its utter lack of validity or sense.

-Galen's player

Huh?

I'm interested in steals.

Steals don't happen in Trammel.

 

[Mairut]

I don't understand why the undeniably true fact that the auction house should have known better somehow becomes an excuse for the fact that it was done at all.

The auction house's post is quite clearly a claiming of responsibility and a claim to make amends.

They clearly have, and admit to having, responsibility for putting someone untrustworthy on staff.

But they didn't make anyone steal from them.

They just screwed up and gave the wrong person the key to the house. It doesn't make the stealer any less of a stealer.

-Galen's player

I agree. Still doesn't mean EA has to do anything to punish the thief (and I use the term "thief" loosely), unless exploits are used.

Has anyone offered a reward for the return of the items? I've noticed your thief hanging around in UO the last few hours. You could probably find them if you bothered to look.

 

[Llewen]

And this of course is exactly what scammers are most proud of taking from us. You can never know 100% that someone you know, whether you feel the immediate connection or a longer-term friendship with someone, isn't going to scam you, steal from you, take you for everything in your house that he or she has access to.

They have created an environment that's so cutthroat and so competitive, that people will come here and defend their behavior, largely out of sheer admiration for what they can get away with, regardless of the harm caused.

-Galen's player

I certainly don't admire what was done, but I will defend another player's right to do it.

You earn friendship and trust over time. You spend time with people and you learn who you can count on, and who you can't, and unless there is the possibility of betrayal, you will never truly know who you can and cannot count on.

I don't know exactly what happened here, but it sounds to me as though someone trusted someone they shouldn't have, and in most of those cases the victim could have done something to prevent what happened.

- You don't give someone you have known only for a few weeks, or even a few months, unrestricted access to anything that you feel has real value.

- You make sure you keep close enough contact with people in positions of trust so that you know if someone has disguised themselves as this person, and most assuredly you keep close enough contact to be aware if they have done something like sell their account, or even given access to their account to some other person.

- You make sure you have a strong password on your account, and you don't give out your account name and password to anyone, unless you are prepared to accept that they may do something destructive with your account, even if it is unintentionally.

- Usually there are some signals that indicate that something isn't right when someone is trying to scam you. Unless that person is a brilliant actor, and very few are, they will inevitably leave clues as to their true nature to those around them.

- You limit access severely, to only those who absolutely need it to perform their functions, in a situation such as an auction where you are going to be entrusted with items of value belonging to other people.

Somewhere among those simple precepts, or perhaps one or two that I have forgotten, I am sure you will find the break in the wall that these scammers passed through.

 

[Uriah Heep]

I've worked an auction house. Long term friends, known to each other. Security was the utmost concern of ours, and we were not handling items anywhere near as valuable as these were.
Nothing allowed near the front counter where it could be reached.
One player consistently detecting hiders and stealthers.
Rowdy or unruly ones were dispatched under the house sign, so they couldn't be a distraction for us and take our attention from security matters.

An unfortunate incident indeed. My only question on the PAH part is this:
If they are an established auction house, and hold auctions on a regular basis, why was new/untested/unproven/unknown and more staff needed?
*shrugs*
Stay with what you know, and who you know, that's been our unspoken rule. And has worked for a few years now =)

 

[quig]

This guys name was ********* THE PICKPOCKET! Seriously would you hand your stuff to someone who roleplays a thief! He even wears legendary thiefs Chad Sexingtons old clothes! All this thief did was steal from his own guild, sure its major lame and he ruined a major event. But the fault is completely on WRR and PAH guilds and unfortunately they are paying now with thier own gold. If EA reps actually do anything that would be called favortism, many people have lost stuff to people they trusted, and EA did nothing.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Thank you Landon for the update.
I know you guys are doing everything
possible to get things straightened out.




*Tips hat*

See 5. Rights and Responsibilities. (c)

For those wanting the company to do something. I do not feel EA/Mythic should take responsibility for others actions. They are not responsible for the event or any problems during the event. Should EA/Mythic step in they will find themselves knee deep in crap but that is the choice of the company not ours.
http://www.uo.com/agreement.html​

Again, you are wrong. EA helped sponsor the event, so they took up a vested interest in this mess.

 

[quig]

Huh?

I'm interested in steals.

Steals don't happen in Trammel.

Spoken like a true thief, this is why your a legend and the person in this incident is scum.

 

[five oclock]

Most of the comments here are very good...Im going to throw my two cents in tho...

good or bad...hacker vs thief, Uber rare to just a plain o sword...

Its just PIXLES!!!! Nothing more! ALL of it is owned by EA.

Sorry to say this but what would happen when EA just shut everything down? Seriously folks?

Yes I have lost stuff. Im also for justice..But still....

Ok you can all go back to fighting

 

[Ralco]

Are you sure? Have you checked for precedents?

Very sure. Precendent is meaningless. Violation of theft laws is impossible.

From the EULA

"(c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game
play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com."

EA owned it before hand. EA owned it afterward. Theft in MPOGS is impossible.

 

[Bullseye_of_Atl]

I keep reading the word "scam", and I guess it's also more of a con job.
Guy infiltrates the auction house crew, right?

Waits to get access to the goods in question, then, when no ones around, heists the goods?

Yeah, he screwed alot of people, but also sounds like he used in game mechanics to pull off a heist, and a big one. EA has reason to chime in......stealing items has more consequences than a murder?

I understand, because virtual items can be sold for real life dollars, that's where pixels are valued.....but with that said, responsability also comes into play. I learned long ago, never have items of extreme value out in a public house, and go to rearrange them without checking security first. I lost something to a theif, waiting for me to unlock a statue.....I paged a GM, he came, looked under house, then saw the theif walking away, and said, it's in his backpack.

end of story, theif used legal mechanics and I was out of luck.

Right or wrong doesn't matter here,.....reason being, murdering a miner is wrong too, but where's the outrage there?.....what?, no monetary value?

I see this as a lesson learned, and feel bad for the victims.

 

[Gheed]

Take the stuff back from the thief and give him/her a special hued "I Stole The 2010 Pacific Rares Festival" tunic. -120 stealing

 

[sablestorm]

I posted earlier that I said EA shouldn't get involved because you basically couldn't punish someone for taking items from a house secure they have access to. Reading the last post, however, got me to thinking. The speculation I heard was that this theft might have occurred when three harbringers were popped, that the thieves used the chaos of the harbringers to cover their activities. If this was indeed the case, could the thieves be busted for luring and getting other players killed in a Trammel ruleset?

 

[Shelleybean]

I posted earlier that I said EA shouldn't get involved because you basically couldn't punish someone for taking items from a house secure they have access to. Reading the last post, however, got me to thinking. The speculation I heard was that this theft might have occurred when three harbringers were popped, that the thieves used the chaos of the harbringers to cover their activities. If this was indeed the case, could the thieves be busted for luring and getting other players killed in a Trammel ruleset?

Hmmm I wonder if that would work. I was there when the harbingers were popped and it looked like they were targetting the pets parked outside the house. I noticed someone's giant beetle got killed but I'm not sure if any players died.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

Well it looks like at least one person enjoyed the event and it shows how game mechanics lead to poor gaming experience. People want to trust others but there is no justice in game so unless you can afford the repercussions logically you shouldn't trust anyone which makes it less fun.

 

[RawHeadRex]

I've worked an auction house. Long term friends, known to each other. Security was the utmost concern of ours, and we were not handling items anywhere near as valuable as these were.
Nothing allowed near the front counter where it could be reached.
One player consistently detecting hiders and stealthers.
Rowdy or unruly ones were dispatched under the house sign, so they couldn't be a distraction for us and take our attention from security matters.

An unfortunate incident indeed. My only question on the PAH part is this:
If they are an established auction house, and hold auctions on a regular basis, why was new/untested/unproven/unknown and more staff needed?
*shrugs*
Stay with what you know, and who you know, that's been our unspoken rule. And has worked for a few years now =)

thank you!

sounds like an inside job to anyone on the outside looking in... utterly ridiculous.

 

[Viper09]

Again, you are wrong. EA helped sponsor the event, so they took up a vested interest in this mess.

How did they help? Just asking out of pure curiosity. I didn't really follow this until I started hearing about how things went bad.

 

[shulginist]

I noticed someone's giant beetle got killed but I'm not sure if any players died.

My unbonded beetle was killed full of heavy stuff. That was real fun...

 

[dum3886]

What's Legal and Illegal actually has little to do with what's Right and Wrong.

The judiciary system is a human attempt to judge between right and wrong, good intentions versus bad intentions, accidents versus malicious acts.
The end-goal of a legal system is to give justice.
Since we're not omniscient, we can't have a perfect legal system, the best we can do is invent laws with as few loopholes within them as we can. Problem is, it's really easy to get through loop-holes if you're good at it.

... if you can fit yourself through a legal loop-hole, does that mean your actions were justifiable and good, or does it mean that the law was written poorly?

Too many people view the legal system as a game: if you do wrong, but are clever enough to find a way to use the system against itself, then you get away free. Rewarding ingenuity rather than morality.

So, I say, if you have all the facts, have all the evidence? What more is needed?

There is a big difference between what is right and what is legal. The laws cannot touch what people see as "unethical" or "wrong". If we change the law every on a case to case basis.. then the law does not exist at all. Yes the laws can change after the event if people see it is required but the laws cannot change during and for the case. The law may be interpretted in a different way but unless term and condition state that EA act based on what they believe is just mean or they judge is unethical... nothing can and nothing should happen. No one is above the law... (my guess is their T&A only state that they will punish those who abuse game mechanics.. not trust)... this is actually one of the GOOD things about UO.. that these things can happen... yes it sucks but it is what makes UO what it is... I see UO as more than a game.. it is a 2nd life. (note: no i do not play but i go onto the forum praying a Classic shard is formed haha... i quit in 2009)

ALso...

Did all the events happen on multiple shards? Or did it all happen on Pacific? If it all happened on Pacific, it belongs in Pacific forum not uhall. Weather or not people who attended have toons on other servers is not the point, if they were playing on Pacific and it happened on Pacific it belongs in the Pacific forum period. I play on multiple shards, if something happens on one I dont go complaining on uhall or a shard that it didnt happen on.

All I am saying is if all this happened on pacific and pacific only and thats what it looks like, it belong on PAcific forum, not here. It dont matter if people intended on transfering items off pacific or not, when this happened it was on pacific NOT their home shard, this is not a shard wide issue. A multiple people issue yes, but shard wide it is not since it did not happen on all shards, it happened on pacific.

Is this really that hard of a concept to grasp? It happened on pacific, it didnt happen on atlantic, it didnt happen on europia, it didnt happen on great lakes, it happened on pacific. The fact that the players it effected have toons on other servers does not change the fact that it only happened on Pacific. A lot of players impacted, yes, one server, yes, multiple servers? NO.

Again just because these people planned to transfer things to other servers does not make it a multiple server issue. That would be like me getting scammed (would never happen but) and claiming that I was gonna transfer one thing to every server, but because I was scammed I cant so it makes it a multiple server issue. Nope sorry I dont buy it, it happened on one server, it should be on that servers forums. UHall is not the place for server issues, your server forum is.

TROLLLLLLLLLL.... holy crap how do u not see the bigger picture. THis may have happened on Pacific but its effect will spread to all shards. People will now ask... why should we trust ANY of these rare festivals which happen on various shards... chessy, atlantic, pacific etc.... It also effected people from all shards and almost all people in UO. If someone wants to sell a rare.. this was a great opportunity for them whether they were from Oceania to Sakura... this is something that is important to the UO community and not just Pacific. Yes u may not care about rares.. i don't either but if i manage to collect 10+ high end rares i would have considered selling them here but well... would i still do it? It depends.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

I certainly don't admire what was done, but I will defend another player's right to do it.

It’s a permissive attitude like this which encourages the D-bags in the game to continue and prosper. Simply because it is mechanically possible in the game without resorting to cheats/hacks/etc doesn't make it right.

The 'thief' here abused trust placed in him by the PAH and WRR staffs and ruined one of the main Rares Festival events. The staff has taken on the responsibility to compensate the victims, and I applaud them for that.

The 'thief' did NOT have any right to do what he did, and defending this act if reprehensible. Stealing is stealing, regardless of whether it happens in the real world or the virtual. What the thief did was wrong, immoral, blah blah.. This wasn't a noble Robin Hood-esque moment that should be praised; it was one of the worst aspects of humanity rearing its very ugly head.

The thief should be condemned, not praised or excused. The thief should also be publicly exposed for his actions, subject of the shame and ridicule of the UO community so none will ever trust them again.

 

[dum3886]

+1

I agree i don't respect what the guy did but i also do defend what the con-artist did. He did it legally end of story. Some people lose out... so what? it happens all the time in the game. u steal someone's spawn.... they lose out... cry more.

Secondly... he did NOT steal the items.. he merely took them out of a box which he had the right to do. How can he steal an item which doesn't belong to someone else... remember all items belong to EA.. not the players if i am not mistaken.

 

[It Lives]

Look how damaging "rares" have been to this game, duped items. Mass scripted gold farming to get the gold to buy the rares.

A lot of these rares originate from game glitches and bugs the dev could not fix or control, and most have been duped to hell and back.



.....I say kudos to the infiltrator's, nice score!

 

[Mairut]

It’s a permissive attitude like this which encourages the D-bags in the game to continue and prosper. Simply because it is mechanically possible in the game without resorting to cheats/hacks/etc doesn't make it right.

The 'thief' here abused trust placed in him by the PAH and WRR staffs and ruined one of the main Rares Festival events. The staff has taken on the responsibility to compensate the victims, and I applaud them for that.

The 'thief' did NOT have any right to do what he did, and defending this act if reprehensible. Stealing is stealing, regardless of whether it happens in the real world or the virtual. What the thief did was wrong, immoral, blah blah.. This wasn't a noble Robin Hood-esque moment that should be praised; it was one of the worst aspects of humanity rearing its very ugly head.

The thief should be condemned, not praised or excused. The thief should also be publicly exposed for his actions, subject of the shame and ridicule of the UO community so none will ever trust them again.

Pretty sure the thief is doing a good job of publicly exposing himself. At least, I hope it's him and not a scammer using someone else's name.
It's simply your opinion that he shouldn't be able to do anything like that. Just like I'm going along with the opinion that it's just pixels and there (hopefully) wasn't anything wrong since there was no abuse of mechanics or exploits. Like someone else has said (or several someones) I also don't respect what he did, but he did it legally.

Again, you are wrong. EA helped sponsor the event, so they took up a vested interest in this mess.

How did they help? Just asking out of pure curiosity. I didn't really follow this until I started hearing about how things went bad.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what he was referring to were the specially-labeled surcoats that were handed out to those helping organize this festival.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

If I were the owner of the game I would ban guys like that. They serve no purpose in the game and are useless distractions from fun.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I agree. Still doesn't mean EA has to do anything to punish the thief (and I use the term "thief" loosely), unless exploits are used.

In my analysis I never arrived at the issue of if EA should punish the thief or not. My analysis stops solely at the point at which it's bad to abuse trust in a social setting (which UO is) and it's bad to support those who abuse trust in a social setting, even passively.

I agree with the sentiment behind the idea EA should punish the thief. I question if it's practical or not. For a ton of reasons.

Has anyone offered a reward for the return of the items? I've noticed your thief hanging around in UO the last few hours.

If you meant that part of your message for me, I have no thief. I've made a couple over the years but have never worked them up to any reasonable degree.

-Galen's player

 

[Yalp]

Don't you have to ask yourself, how can a group of people who are so experienced in UO, auctioneering, and game mechanics not have anticipated these consequences?

By now, the items have undoubtedly been transferred off shard, sold to multiple parties, and duped into oblivion... the only thing left is to get MORE of your hard earned gold to help the poor organizers reimburse the dopes.... err.. victims.

 

[Ken of Napa]

Huh?

I'm interested in steals.

Steals don't happen in Trammel.

Spoken like a true thief, this is why your a legend and the person in this incident is scum.

QFT!

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I certainly don't admire what was done, but I will defend another player's right to do it.

For these purposes, that's actually close enough.

This isn't some Real Life free speech issue here.

*shrugs*

-Galen's player

 

[Lorax_Pacific]

Sorry this happened.

Am I wrong? Seems this is no different than having a guild house where things are taken or in the old days you friend people to houses and not lock the chests in them.

One of the support roles co-owners can have is for use of friending and banning appropriately.

What the auction staff may have forgotten is to use keys on chests and have a key ring with access keys. Then appropriate people could ban or friend and appropriate people could access chests.

Remember when we always had locked chests in houses to prevent ghosts from rezzing inside and looting the entire house? We never got reimbursed from that.

Too bad for the auction house losses.

-Lorax

p.s.

Maybe the PAH staff can provide a wish list of mechanisms to house controls over future auctions. I'm sure this is something EA/mythic would like to avoid in the future so brainstorm on that.

 

[Mairut]

In my analysis I never arrived at the issue of if EA should punish the thief or not. My analysis stops solely at the point at which it's bad to abuse trust in a social setting (which UO is) and it's bad to support those who abuse trust in a social setting, even passively.

I agree with the sentiment behind the idea EA should punish the thief. I question if it's practical or not. For a ton of reasons.



If you meant that part of your message for me, I have no thief. I've made a couple over the years but have never worked them up to any reasonable degree.

-Galen's player

Then it's your sentiment that I disagree with.

I didn't mean that you, Galen, had a thief. I meant "your" in the collective sense; the thief that everyone is talking about... that was directed at everyone in general.

I think you'd make a good thief though... just don't take that the wrong way.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

To all the permissive people defending the 'right' of this scummy thief to do what he did:

Can you PM me with your addresses and a list of times when you won't be home? I'll have someone come and clean you out, since you seem OK with the concept of people taking what’s not theirs.

We'll see how you feel afterwards...

 

[T'Challa]

To all the permissive people defending the 'right' of this scummy thief to do what he did:

Can you PM me with your addresses and a list of times when you won't be home? I'll have someone come and clean you out, since you seem OK with the concept of people taking what’s not theirs.

We'll see how you feel afterwards...

Because this issue directly corresponds to RL issues. Come on, give it a break.

 

[Tom_Builder]

UO thieves get guard whacked or killed by the player they steal from, by the same line of reasoning this thief should get banned.

Just because it's a possible play style, doesn't mean it's unpunishable. Are you going to justify murder in real life since it's possible in UO? I didn't think so.

I think this was one of the worst things anyone could do at a player run event. But I would not say that you could ban the person. What he did was worng in our eyes, but it was in game.

If you kill someone in game, you dont go to prison in r/l. If you steal something in game, nothing happens to you in r/l. Hacking someones account, scriting, dupping, and other forms of cheats should be bannable.

What this guy did happens all the time, and has happened since day 1 of UO. Learn not to trust people with your items, or if you do, remember this day.

Tom

 

[NuSair]

Was this any different than someone getting themselves invited into a guild and going around stealing/pk'ing and looting their bodies?

I find myself asking that question.

This has existed in UO for quite a while and has never been fixed by Mythic (personally, I wish they set it so that Ronin's cannot attack other guild members). Or does it need fixing? They have set up the mechanics in game to allow for this and to prevent retribution. It seems to me as if they not only allow such actions, but they support and encourage it. There is no functionality ingame to prevent it, yet it would be quite easy to prevent. By not doing something about it before hand when people have complained about it for years speaks volumes.

With non-unique names, disguise kits, incognito spell a player trying to hide themselves wouldn't be found. Unless they suck at it or chose to be found.

Is getting invited into a guild fundamentally different than getting co-owned to a house? By those such acts, you are allowed to take certain actions.

So, if by being invited into a guild, you can immediately PK/Steal from guild members- what is wrong with immediately stealing from someone who friends you to their house? You have some protection in that you can limit access to chest. With characters, you can insure your items. If you leave your items uninsured, then while what the person did really sucks, it is your fault for not insuring your items. How is having chest that people can get into that they shouldn't be any different than no insuring your items.

 

[Mairut]

To all the permissive people defending the 'right' of this scummy thief to do what he did:

Can you PM me with your addresses and a list of times when you won't be home? I'll have someone come and clean you out, since you seem OK with the concept of people taking what’s not theirs.

We'll see how you feel afterwards...

How do I figure co-ordinates in game again? I'd love to tell you. I'll even make it open to the public and co-own you if you want. Good luck.



Oh... sorry you meant real life... and probably something about how people spent real time and hard work getting these items, and how EA/GMs act as the "government" and "police" in this game, etc. etc.

Well. I'm not going to give you access to my things in RL or in-game unless I absolutely, 100% trust you. Or trust myself enough to know that you wouldn't get away with anything (as is the case in UO).

We need to keep both sides of the issue in mind, not just the fact that there was a scammer, and he scammed.

 

[Tom_Builder]

To all the permissive people defending the 'right' of this scummy thief to do what he did:

Can you PM me with your addresses and a list of times when you won't be home? I'll have someone come and clean you out, since you seem OK with the concept of people taking what’s not theirs.

We'll see how you feel afterwards...

Your welcome to stop by my place anytime. Just make sure you read the sign "Beware of Owner".

 

[Poo]

i got up to post #60 and still have no idea what is going on.

which kinda makes the entire thread useless IMHO.

maybe someone can take a sec for us slow kids in the class and tell us all what happened, and a list of what was tooken/lifted would be awsome so we can gauge our level of interest.

cause if it was 2 pumice rocks then this is a whole lot of post about nothing.

if it was 10 item bless deeds then it would be a lot more interesting.

just saying.

 

[Mairut]

i got up to post #60 and still have no idea what is going on.

which kinda makes the entire thread useless IMHO.

maybe someone can take a sec for us slow kids in the class and tell us all what happened, and a list of what was tooken/lifted would be awsome so we can gauge our level of interest.

cause if it was 2 pumice rocks then this is a whole lot of post about nothing.

if it was 10 item bless deeds then it would be a lot more interesting.

just saying.

The OP in this explains what happened:
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=195335

Here's a pic of some items that were stolen:
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=195405

Items were stolen from someone co-owned to the auction house, from a box with a security setting as co-owners only.

WRR and Pacific rares fest (excuse me, pacific auction house?) people were putting on the auction, and apologized and are attempting to make amends for what happened.

The discussion in this thread is mainly whether or not EA should do something about getting the items back and banning the scammer or not.

The apology thread on Pacific shard forum:
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=195456

I hope that helps

 

[Kiminality]

To all the permissive people defending the 'right' of this scummy thief to do what he did:

Can you PM me with your addresses and a list of times when you won't be home? I'll have someone come and clean you out, since you seem OK with the concept of people taking what’s not theirs.

We'll see how you feel afterwards...

Nice hyperbole there.

You start with the initial event, which I'm not going to deny sucks. It's morally indefensible.
But, you have the people who objectively or antagonistically comment that the behaviour is something that's permitted within the game mechanics, and isn't disallowed through the RoC or ToS.
Then, you are there, attacking those people. You are out of line.

Yes, the person in question was unscrupulous. Whether through premeditation or opportunism, they betrayed the trust the items were given to the group in.
But, the auction group failed that very same trust, by allowing the unscrupulous individual access to the items. Props to them for the reimbursing, however.

 

[Llewen]

It’s a permissive attitude like this which encourages the D-bags in the game to continue and prosper. Simply because it is mechanically possible in the game without resorting to cheats/hacks/etc doesn't make it right.

I think something we all need to get a grip on is that this is a game. You can play a "D-bag" if you like, and not be a "D-bag" irl. Myself I like playing with as much honour and honesty as I can muster. I like treating people well in game, and I like bringing down justice on the heads of those who would victimize the weak.

However, just because I play UO with noble grace doesn't mean I live my life the same way. I'm not saying I don't, I'm just saying that because I play nicely in game it doesn't automatically follow that I am a nice guy irl. UO is a game, and one of the beauties of a game is you can become something you aren't irl.

For some that means being truly good. For some it means being truly evil. And the more we have of each, the more fun the game is in my opinion. There's nothing more fun to me than plotting the destruction of someone that plays the game like "D-bag". As a result I am perfectly aware that if there weren't "D-bags" in the game, the game wouldn't be anywhere near as much fun.

However, I am sorry for those that lost items, and I'm sorry that a wonderful event was ruined. I truly am.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

We need to keep both sides of the issue in mind, not just the fact that there was a scammer, and he scammed.

Not so much.

Those who trust are not the issue here as they are not the problem, the fact that some worm decided that he would rip off a public event either to cause grief or line his own pockets with money - most likely real world currency.

This thief isn't someone to support or encourage. They ruined a rather large public event, and made a hundred+ people unhappy. He abused trust placed in him to help with the event and stole for his own gain.

Simple because it CAN happen doesn't make it right. This isn't a game mechanics or a scamming issue. What the guy did was wrong and he should be condemned for it, not condoned.

This was some D-bag being evil in a real world sense while playing an MMO, not a wily thief stealing your bandages in Fel while his guildies cut you to ribbons. Things that harm the community, regardless of shard/facet, are bad.

 

[kelmo]

I am reminded of an article I read in a computer gaming magazine a couple of years ago. The game was Eve on line. A massive infiltration and back stab that took months to pull off.

It was such a coup, it made the news. The turn over of pixels was enormous. The betrayal and backstabbing made it a sexy story.

In that story, no in game rules were broken I seem to remember. Yet the results were devastating for one "faction".

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

I think something we all need to get a grip on is that this is a game. You can play a "D-bag" if you like, and not be a "D-bag" irl...

There is a big difference between playing 'evil' either in an RP sense, or as a murderer, and being a D-bag.

The D-bags of the game are the griefers, scammers, and hackers. People for whom the concept of civility and responsibility are forever out of reach.

If you play as a D-bag in the game, you *might* not be one IRL - but I doubt it. The anonymity of the internet tends to magnify the output of cruelty these people are capable of. Yes this is a game, but simply accepting this kind of behavior without challenge will allow it to continue to escalate.

This isn't game issue, its a psychology issue. People are jerks. This thief is a jerk.

Why do you want to tolerate jerks?

 

[Kiminality]

I am reminded of an article I read in a computer gaming magazine a couple of years ago. The game was Eve on line. A massive infiltration and back stab that took months to pull off.

It was such a coup, it made the news. The turn over of pixels was enormous. The betrayal and backstabbing made it a sexy story.

In that story, no in game rules were broken I seem to remember. Yet the results were devastating for one "faction".

I thought of the very same article. It was a fascinating story, and an excellent cautionary tale, really.

 

[Coragin]

Well since its staying.

1. The person who did this did not "scam" he "conned". He conned the people who ran this into thinking he was trustworthy. Probably the whole time having a different agenda. Sort of like a spy would infiltrate an opposing government. Or a undercover cop would take on the role of a criminal going in deep cover. You guys were conned, nothing more, nothing less.

2. While so many are screaming its a trust thing, you are right and the people giving you their stuff trusted you to not have someone like the person in question to have access to their stuff. So whos trust got broken here? Yes the guild who put on the events trust was broken by this con artist. But, the people who gave the guild their stuff, well their trust was broken, they trusted you to know and trust everyone who had access to the container with their stuff. Obviously you didnt know this person well enough, you let down the trust of the players attending the event.

3. To say that this completely ruined the game for some people, well those people obviously dont need to be playing UO if they are so attached to these in game things that losing items in a fantasy game completely ruins it for them. Might wanna rethink playing an mmo and go back to nintendo.

4. Yes what this guy did is morally wrong, but not outside the rules of the game. Gaining someones trust to gain access to a container or a guild fund or guild supplies, or even the chests with auction house stuff in them, only to take them when given the right chance is not against the rules. Back when I first started playing, thieves would stay hidden and kill you outside your door before you could put your key to your house on your vendor. Then they would proceed to loot your house dry, if you lived close to a town you were screwed, getting guard wacked for trying to kill them to get your stuff back. Now a days its so easy to not get your house dry looted by just not giving access to just anyone.

I think all the "security" EA has put into this game has made a majority of the players into a bunch of cream puffs. And no this guy should not be banned, he should not have the stuff taken back. Its not his fault the people who put on this event were dumb enough to trust him and fall for his fake cover as being a nice guy.

Ya got ripped off, ya got conned, deal with it. Suck it up, grow a pair and move on with your UO life. Or if you cant, if it has ruined the game that much for you, quit, you shouldnt be playing an mmo like this anyways.

 

[Llewen]

I am reminded of an article I read in a computer gaming magazine a couple of years ago. The game was Eve on line. A massive infiltration and back stab that took months to pull off.

It was such a coup, it made the news. The turn over of pixels was enormous. The betrayal and backstabbing made it a sexy story.

In that story, no in game rules were broken I seem to remember. Yet the results were devastating for one "faction".

I thought of the very same article. It was a fascinating story, and an excellent cautionary tale, really.

Well, that is another one of many things that CCP does right with EVE. They actively encourage scamming, backstabbing, and machinations of all sorts. It's part of the game, and they make it very clear that it is. One of the first things you will read is that if you get scammed, tough luck, maybe you'll be smarter next time. And the truly epic scams like that one become a part of the lore of the game, and it's history, and a story that gets told and retold. I guess the time I spent in EVE has given me a different take on the issue than many here have.

One thing that I know is an issue is that these rares have a real dollar value, and some of them can be sold for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. However, I'm afraid that value is all in the eye of the beholder, and you have to be aware when you buy something that just because you payed real money for it, that doesn't give you any more right to it than anyone has to anything else in the game. It's a matter of you pay your money and you take your chance.

You could just as easily lose that item the next day to something as unavoidable as an insurance bug, and you have to be aware of that when you purchase something, and don't spend money that you aren't willing to, or can't afford to, throw away.

 

[Mairut]

Not so much.

Those who trust are not the issue here as they are not the problem, the fact that some worm decided that he would rip off a public event either to cause grief or line his own pockets with money - most likely real world currency.

This thief isn't someone to support or encourage. They ruined a rather large public event, and made a hundred+ people unhappy. He abused trust placed in him to help with the event and stole for his own gain.

Simple because it CAN happen doesn't make it right. This isn't a game mechanics or a scamming issue. What the guy did was wrong and he should be condemned for it, not condoned.

This was some D-bag being evil in a real world sense while playing an MMO, not a wily thief stealing your bandages in Fel while his guildies cut you to ribbons. Things that harm the community, regardless of shard/facet, are bad.

We'll agree to disagree then.

What if... and I don't agree with this at all, I'm just trying to make a point; playing devil's advocate...

What if instead of punishing the scammer, we punish the people who were running the auction for negligence? In my eyes, they are just as much responsible for what happened as the scammer. The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the scammer should be banned. I don't think anyone should be banned over what happened.

Furthermore, I'm not saying what the scammer did was right. I understand that people are hurt over this. I feel really, really bad for them. I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone I know, nor to me.

I appreciate the fact that the auction staff is trying to make this right...again in case you didn't catch it the first time... I don't think they should be in trouble for negligence... anymore than I think the scammer needs to be for jumping on the opportunity they provided.

The point that I'm trying to make there, is that there are two sides to this. The least you could do is acknowledge that fact.

You also seem to not understand how this game was built. When it first came out, things like this were handled by the players. They were treated as outcasts, KOS, whatever else. Since the trammel split, you can't necessarily KOS, but you can refuse them your services... whatever that happens to be.

If you go and look in the pacific shard forums, there are people... PLAYERS... that are investigating this issue themselves. I'm sure after they're done, they'd probably offer full disclosure of who did it if you asked. While we can't accuse people on these boards, it doesn't prevent the word from being spread.

If you'd like to condemn him up one side and down the other after you find out who it is, be my guest.

My stance on this whole issue is that there were a number of things that went wrong, but since there was no exploit, then EA has no part in it.

 

[Lord Frodo]

I personally feel this case is a bit different than most other cases. And if Mythic wants to create a policy on case-by-case, I have no issue with that.

I'm not affected by this thing (I play Great Lakes) but I can only imagine the frustration, annoyance and even sadness that some people may feel.

This case is no different then anybody else being scammed. Just because they were rares make them no better then anyone else that has been scammed out of anything they own.

 

[Lord Frodo]

UO thieves get guard whacked or killed by the player they steal from, by the same line of reasoning this thief should get banned.

Just because it's a possible play style, doesn't mean it's unpunishable. Are you going to justify murder in real life since it's possible in UO? I didn't think so.

He did nothing illegal in UO so get over it and talk about going overboard and using UO and killing in real.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Great reasoning! "If you can't catch every single criminal, you might as well pack it up, go home, and not even try to catch one, especially when there's a boatload of evidence!"

OL Here we go again. What he did under UO rules was legal. He pulled off one of the biggests scams and it was legal.