Dismounting.

[Sir Morder]

Damnit Vaelix, i miss checked the "remove dismount completely" box. Put me down for that. Dismounting has put a severe hamper on what used to be known as PvP. Now it's simply DvD (dismount v dismount). PvP USED to be fun and exciting. Now it's just about dismounting and ganking (and stealthing but thats another thread). I've been PvPing for along long time, and well, now i just grow plants! BRING BACK THEE BLOOD!!!!!!!!

 

[Splup]

I don't know what shard you play or what PvP is like there, but when I get dismounted there are usually somewhere between 3-5 people on me immediately (mainly dexxers). There are simply situations in which after being dismounted there is no out. You can teleport, yes, but not when your bleeding, running shotted, nerved, etc with a greater dragon on you. Any group of sub-par dexxers can kill ANY mage after they're dismounted...I don't care who you are.

Well, I don't go challenging 5vs1 in open... If you do, that's your problem. In town if I get dismounted I try teleporting to a roof, when you have mainly dexers on there's a big chance some of them are not carrying teleport scrolls or don't know where to target it...

In dungeon I either try stonefielding a narrow spot or teleporting on platform.

Do I always survive? Heck no... But sometimes you are just not supposed to survive 5vs1 you know. If dismount was removed there would be temps that are nearly impossible to kill without getting em badly trapped.

And atleast on my shard, guilds manage to win fights outnumbered all the time.

edit: Thou I see how dexers get more frustrated about dismounts. I mean if you play group of dexers and one gets dismounted he's pretty much busted if has no ninjitsu. But if you have atleast 1 good mage in your group, he will prolly get the guy back on horse. But my opinion still stands, dismounts are needed in todays PvP. Is 8 tile dismount overpowered? I dunno, haven't really thought about it. But removing dismount totally would be rly rly sad.

 

[Heartseeker]

Dismount should be a lance only deal.

Personally I would like to see all mounts gone.

On foot is the way to play this game!

 

[WarUltima]

edit: Thou I see how dexers get more frustrated about dismounts. I mean if you play group of dexers and one gets dismounted he's pretty much busted if has no ninjitsu. But if you have atleast 1 good mage in your group, he will prolly get the guy back on horse. But my opinion still stands, dismounts are needed in todays PvP. Is 8 tile dismount overpowered? I dunno, haven't really thought about it. But removing dismount totally would be rly rly sad.

Or you are the only 1 mage in your group and everyone else are dexers and your enemy came at you even numbered with nothing but disarm archers and guess who dies first? (PvP 101, hint: target that person thats required to get paralyzed attempting to heal, paralyzed attempting to cure and paralyzed before he can attempt to do even 1 damage to you)

I dont know if its mages or dexers more frustrated about dismounts, but I know if you are the only mage in your group and your enemy with same number with enough archers and arent stupid, the mage will go down first.

The counter to dismount is pretty much ninjitsu (assuming you can survive long enough for the confusion to go away) and last time I checked Ninjitsu isnt a mage related skill.

 

[Tairon]

waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa
waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa................


Oh those terrible dismounters ruining pvp waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......................

You are all crying because you were put on foot?

I AM ON FOOT ALL THE TIME

Just get a little skill and stop crying, it is tough being constantly dominated by my LEETNESS, I understand.......but get over it!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

 

[Chardonnay]

waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa
waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaa
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa................


Oh those terrible dismounters ruining pvp waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......................

You are all crying because you were put on foot?

I AM ON FOOT ALL THE TIME

Just get a little skill and stop crying, it is tough being constantly dominated by my LEETNESS, I understand.......but get over it!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

By "little skill" do you mean hide/stealth/ninja? And not show your face unless there's 5 of you dismount ganking? How has yours and TNT been lately?

Dismounting is a very big reason for the failure to uo pvp...and uo will continue to lose people till something is done about it...

 

[Tairon]

By "little skill" do you mean hide/stealth/ninja? And not show your face unless there's 5 of you dismount ganking? How has yours and TNT been lately?

Dismounting is a very big reason for the failure to uo pvp...and uo will continue to lose people till something is done about it...

What shard are you playing on, if any? It is not siege or you would not mention stealth and me in the same post.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Chardonnay]

What shard are you playing on, if any? It is not siege or you would not mention stealth and me in the same post.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

When did you change because i know you ran it for years...oh wait now the servers dead so you can play a shown template now...

*nods*

 

[puni666]

Dismounting period should be removed it encourages ganking and makes solo pvp impossible...

Why play a mmorpg if you only want to solo? Mortal Kombat is a good 1v1 style of game that you might be interested in.

The game's ment to be played with others people. If you're alone and get dismounted by 3 people... you should die. Otherwise run with some halfway intelligent people that may perhaps cross heal you and invis you allowing some time for you to remount.

 

[Lefty]

I remember at the beginning of AOS you could dismount while mounted. Note how fast that was changed.


I think I would be fine with dismount as long as the stealther got revealed when he toggled the special move. Least I would have a 1 second chance.

 

[Cetric]

As if chasing down someone these days was hard enough....

 

[Lady Michelle]

No matter what there will always be ganking taking dismounting out wont discourage it. most of the ganking I see is basicly done by mages so maybe we should take away the mages spells J/k

 

[Lynk]

To balance archer dismount I'd be happy with removing the ability to jump off mount, toggle dismount, and then remount.

The problem with mages throwing bolas is that too many people use the trick of making the game play window much larger than intended. This allows people to teleport further, how much further kind of depends on how big your monitor is. You can't tele further in EVERY direction, only if you go straight NW, SE, NE, or SW (basically perpendicular/parallel to your monitor edges).

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Get resist... And watch what your opponents are casting. If you see someone with EO up, Magic Arrow yourself... even if they land the para, you get free'd when u take the damage.

Also, people who only think they can pvp properly on a mage and cant, use EO+Para.

I have my ways around the para but it's no less lame...

As for Dismount.... in the realm of everyone using speed hacks the dismount barely levels the field...

1) Having to resort to BS "ways around" a flawed mechanic does not make it acceptable. That is flawed thinking and is what keeps the garbage in the game for way too long.
Dismount is ridiculously overpowered AND encourages ganking. This makes it a no brainer for the nerf heap to anyone thinking objectively.

2) Saying Dismount "levels" speed hacks is motarded.
Lets just bring back WOD & 90 point Conc blows & 5/6 casting. They also provided instant kills thereby "levelling" speed hacking lol.

 

[WarUltima]

2) Saying Dismount "levels" speed hacks is motarded.
Lets just bring back WOD & 90 point Conc blows & 5/6 casting. They also provided instant kills thereby "levelling" speed hacking lol.

lol But it's so true.

Past
WoD insta kill AI archer: WE ARE BALANCED!!! BECAUSE PEOPLE SPEEDHACK SO WE KILL THEM BEFORE THEY CAN BLINK THEIR EYES. THIS IS BALACE. THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!! IF YOU TAKE OUT OUR ULTRA BALANCED ULTRA SKILLED WoD AI COMBO IMMA QUIT UO NOWWWWWWW!!!1111oneone1eleven1!

Present
Zerg Guilds: DISMOUNTS ARE OK BECAUSE PEOPLE SPEEDHACK SO WE PERMA LOCK HIM ON FOOT AND SKILLFULLY APPLY EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF PLAYER COUNTS ON THE SINGLE ENEMY. THIS IS BALANCE IF U NERF DISMOUNT MY ENTIRE ZERGGY GUILD IS GONNA QUIT UO NOWWWWWWWW1111oneone1!le1ven11!

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

Dismounting is a very big reason for the failure to uo pvp...and uo will continue to lose people till something is done about it...

Hold up.
Sorry, but I PVP on and off with different groups and I have NEVER been told "man, dismounting is bull**** and I'm quitting". That would be the biggest crybaby move I've ever heard of.
If you take out dismounting, people aren't going to die. Really. There is so much macroing that it would just be endless battles.
I'm an archer with no stealth/hiding, and I have bows that dismount and never use there unless in a group. Why? Because I have to dismount from my ethy and then summon it back up, which means I'm probably on my feet longer than the person dismounted.
Btw, do you know how much mana it takes to friggin' dismount now? All the archer weapons skill mana costs have increased dramatically.

 

[WarUltima]

None stealth archer should be riding a real mount to fully exploit/utilize the full power of dismount (drive by dismounts) and you nailed it you only use it when you are in a group... why? So you can apply excessive amount of damage from multiple attackers to one single player on foot.

People adapt to lame tactics doesnt mean its fine. I pvped during wod bull**** archer era, so that must mean insta kill archers are perfectly fine?

if dismount wasnt the only special move with everlasting effect once hot then it will be much more acceptable.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

None stealth archer should be riding a real mount to fully exploit/utilize the full power of dismount (drive by dismounts) and you nailed it you only use it when you are in a group... why? So you can apply excessive amount of damage from multiple attackers to one single player on foot.

People adapt to lame tactics doesnt mean its fine. I pvped during wod bull**** archer era, so that must mean insta kill archers are perfectly fine?

if dismount wasnt the only special move with everlasting effect once hot then it will be much more acceptable.

I realize how to utilize it but I don't go to PVP regularly because of my connection. I do spawns that sometimes get raided. I have died my fair share of times being dismounted and I've never complained. It's just how it goes. There are plenty of other things you don't do without a group in PVP. By group, I mean 3 people. Maybe. And we usually battle 3 people or more. I think dismounting is perfectly acceptable on those terms. And if I get dismounted, I get dismounted.

 

[Aran]

I remember before dismount. How many of you do?

 

[Locryn Finck]

I'm shocked that nobody has said this yet but:

1: YES! You DO need dismount to kill capable pvprs now. Proliferation of healing abilities, potions, petals, apples, trapped boxes, etc etc etc. You must curtail the ability of your target to escape if you want to close the deal.

2. NO! Archery dismounts are NOT ok! Archery already has the utility of mele from 8 tiles away - dismount is nearly game-breaking. To the gentleman above who said he thinks archery is balanced because you have to dismount your ethy first: If you ride an ethy, you are not a serious pvpr. Period. Mele dismounts require timing, proximity, teamwork, etc. Still a powerful special move, but not the 8 tile away nightmare it is for archery.

3. The solution is simple! Require heavy XBOW dismounts to be within one tile. Add a simple error message that says "From the distance, your blow would lack the velocity to dislodge your opponent". Done. Nice, neat and tidy. Archers retain the ability to dismount, but must get within a reasonable range and expose themselves outside of a group. Additionally, a mounted player has the ability to recognize and read the situation and decide if approaching the archer is worth the risk.

Easy fix for EA, balance does not extend below or above the current mele levels, and we solve a lot of issues with perma dismounted tamer/archers. Everybody wins.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

I'm shocked that nobody has said this yet but:

1: YES! You DO need dismount to kill capable pvprs now. Proliferation of healing abilities, potions, petals, apples, trapped boxes, etc etc etc. You must curtail the ability of your target to escape if you want to close the deal.

2. NO! Archery dismounts are NOT ok! Archery already has the utility of mele from 8 tiles away - dismount is nearly game-breaking. To the gentleman above who said he thinks archery is balanced because you have to dismount your ethy first: If you ride an ethy, you are not a serious pvpr. Period. Mele dismounts require timing, proximity, teamwork, etc. Still a powerful special move, but not the 8 tile away nightmare it is for archery.

3. The solution is simple! Require heavy XBOW dismounts to be within one tile. Add a simple error message that says "From the distance, your blow would lack the velocity to dislodge your opponent". Done. Nice, neat and tidy. Archers retain the ability to dismount, but must get within a reasonable range and expose themselves outside of a group. Additionally, a mounted player has the ability to recognize and read the situation and decide if approaching the archer is worth the risk.

Easy fix for EA, balance does not extend below or above the current mele levels, and we solve a lot of issues with perma dismounted tamer/archers. Everybody wins.

Good god, how many times do I have to tell ya'll I'm not a dude?
SECONDLY, I never claimed to be a hardcore PVPer, but I know several who would be very upset with this change who aren't necessarily even archers.
You aren't taking into account the new mana cost for weapon skills for archers.
And, one tile is ridiculous. Be reasonable. If you really want to cut it down, 5 is acceptable. Hell, even 4 is. But 1? Tamers have huge advantage with their big ass dragons and their giant range, but no one's pancakes about reducing their range, are they? It's not about range, it's about who wants to cry over how bad they suck to one group of players.

 

[Megilhir]

Never thought about it but you know...

"Bolas require 0 skill" is really ignorant. It is a thrown weapon and should require a throwing skill PERIOD! Ever tried to throw a bola in real life? Or a boomerang? How about use Nunchukas?

Dismounting should be possible with any 2 handed weapon. Six feet of a real two handed claymore will knock you and your socks off that mount. And besides, who said you were being targeted? Stab the mount (poor horse:[ ) and they throw the rider.

As far as the balance of PvP...is it ever balanced? No!

I like the idea that if a player kills you (or contributes to the damage that kills you) they remain grey to you for about a month or until you kill them. Retribution slayage!!!!!

And Reds in towns (Yew for example) on the Feluccia side is asinine.

 

[Locryn Finck]

I will address your concerns one at a time.

*New increased mana cost for Archers.
- Irrelevant. PVP operates in a worst case scenario at all times. Even more so with faction artifacts. In other words, the best archers will always have the best equipment and the most up to date and effective tactics. Manacost is not an issue to those with the ability and knowhow to construct an effective pvp suit and playstyle. What makes archery dismount gamebreaking is not the scrubs who "dont want to dismount their ethy" or lack enough mana to chain the specials in their combo. Rather, it is the hardcore players who actually know how powerful and dominant an 8 tile away heavy xbow dismount is in a contested fight.

*One tile range being "ridiculous"
-Alright, heres a choice: There are two dismount options that exist which are balanced. Bolas and mele. Bolas have significant delay, and alert the target. This gives the target time to use player ability and react in order to counter the move. Mele requires proximity and a hit. This means you must time your running, dismounting and special triggering in one fluid move. At which point, your mount is right next to the target, and exposed to retaliation. So, which of these would you prefer? Proximity, or significant delay and warning? For example: "Locryn Finck readies his crossbow for a powerful shot". You see the message, dismount your live mount to mess up the timing. Or, if you are a scrub on an ethy, you get dismounted and wtfpwnd because you didn't come prepared. See? Balanced.

*This sentance:

"Tamers have huge advantage with their big ass dragons and their giant range, but no one's pancakes about reducing their range, are they? It's not about range, it's about who wants to cry over how bad they suck to one group of players."

Thats just drivel. Stay on point.

 

[WarUltima]

I will address your concerns one at a time.

*New increased mana cost for Archers.
- Irrelevant. PVP operates in a worst case scenario at all times. Even more so with faction artifacts. In other words, the best archers will always have the best equipment and the most up to date and effective tactics. Manacost is not an issue to those with the ability and knowhow to construct an effective pvp suit and playstyle. What makes archery dismount gamebreaking is not the scrubs who "dont want to dismount their ethy" or lack enough mana to chain the specials in their combo. Rather, it is the hardcore players who actually know how powerful and dominant an 8 tile away heavy xbow dismount is in a contested fight.

*One tile range being "ridiculous"
-Alright, heres a choice: There are two dismount options that exist which are balanced. Bolas and mele. Bolas have significant delay, and alert the target. This gives the target time to use player ability and react in order to counter the move. Mele requires proximity and a hit. This means you must time your running, dismounting and special triggering in one fluid move. At which point, your mount is right next to the target, and exposed to retaliation. So, which of these would you prefer? Proximity, or significant delay and warning? For example: "Locryn Finck readies his crossbow for a powerful shot". You see the message, dismount your live mount to mess up the timing. Or, if you are a scrub on an ethy, you get dismounted and wtfpwnd because you didn't come prepared. See? Balanced.

*This sentance:

Thats just drivel. Stay on point.

Makes too much sense. Most newbie pvpers cannot use bola right. They cant even work their macros right when they swing a bola which automatically disarms them they just sit there and get instantly owned due to no defensive ability.

1. Bola can be countered with PLAYER SKILL. Manuvering/dismounting self for 0.25 second and instantly cancel bola and remount. And it takes SEVERAL SECONDS to prep a bola with hyper blue texts to warn the enemy that says A BOLA IS COMING!!111 AND it doesnt do 50ish ******** dismount damage like archery.

2. Melee dismounts requires a hit from a MELEE fighter ON FOOT which is an auto balance in itself.

3. Archery has 64 effective INSTANT DISMOUNT TILES (melee fighter has 9) around the archer thats over 700% more area covered compared to a melee dexer. Can be used to drive by dismount gank. Can be used to stealth dismount gank and all the greatest PLAYER SKILL will not help you to avoid it. It's RNG. Against a good guild or a big zerg, dismounted = dead.

4. Did I mention archery dismount can do up to 50 damage from 8 tiles away?

If archery dismount hits for 2 damage TOTAL just like bola then maybe we can let it slide.

 

[puni666]

I'm confused as to how dismount is more over powered then the ability to target someone with any healing ability... If you have a smart group of people with you... or are smart yourself you can survive a dismount. Otherwise it's your own fault for having poor judgment of the fighting situation you're in.

HMM there's 3 mages and an archer with a heavy x bow out there. Maybe I can run away before they finish casting there dump and possibly kill one. AWW THE ARCHER DISMOUNTED ME AND I DIED ... Idiotic. This is probably the problem a lot of you are having...

 

[WarUltima]

I'm confused as to how dismount is more over powered then the ability to target someone with any healing ability... If you have a smart group of people with you... or are smart yourself you can survive a dismount. Otherwise it's your own fault for having poor judgment of the fighting situation you're in.

HMM there's 3 mages and an archer with a heavy x bow out there. Maybe I can run away before they finish casting there dump and possibly kill one. AWW THE ARCHER DISMOUNTED ME AND I DIED ... Idiotic. This is probably the problem a lot of you are having...

So you dont play a mage. I see. Lay down your stealth archer sometime try one you will like it.

Dexer can target someone with a healing ability as well. So what's your point? Until they gave me a Dismount spell thats castable from 8 tiles away that does 50 damage then we dont have something to compare. Archery dismount is the only ranged "instant" dismount attack in UO. And it's also the only dismount in UO thats capable of doing 50 damage to 70 resist while put them on foot.

Since dexers have close wound and can target people with remove curse and cure just like mages (they cast faster than mages btw) I think you will be ok to have a dismount spell right

 

[Locryn Finck]

This is yet another in a long line of issues where there are two voices:

"Its fine" and "It could be better, and here is how and why"

5/6 mage casting, perfection in pvp, etc etc. All of these were board warriored to death, and had many proponents on each side. Does anybody remember all the guys who got lucky in Doom and ended up achieving 5/6 capability that thought it was totally balanced? Turns out, it was never intended. Only problem was, it took EA a year to fix it.

Archery dismount is currently overpowered. The solutions to fixing it are subtle, simple and act as a balance rather than a nerf. It needs to be done, and it should be done.

While EA/Mythic is at it, why don't they go ahead and fix the trapped box bug as well. Sorry guys, reuseable trapped boxes that have to face a certain direction in your backpack are not "working as intended". Again, this relatively simple fix would force people to take resist back on their templates. Which in turn would bring down the level of offensive insanity currently being weathered in the pvp. Mages would be more proliferated, and with the archery fix, fights would be more drawn out strategic affairs.

 

[puni666]

So you dont play a mage. I see. Lay down your stealth archer sometime try one you will like it.

Dexer can target someone with a healing ability as well. So what's your point? Until they gave me a Dismount spell thats castable from 8 tiles away that does 50 damage then we dont have something to compare. Archery dismount is the only ranged "instant" dismount attack in UO. And it's also the only dismount in UO thats capable of doing 50 damage to 70 resist while put them on foot.

Since dexers have close wound and can target people with remove curse and cure just like mages (they cast faster than mages btw) I think you will be ok to have a dismount spell right

I have no archery characters. I play a melee dexer spellweaver. I dismount and x-heal better then most mage's on the GL shard. I'm just pointing out the fact it's easy to survive if you're smart, and if you're not smart try figuring out how other people do it before you start posting whiny threads.

I agree it deals to much damage that's pretty obvious with most archery weapons.

There is one spell that can knock people out of animal form. Purge magic. It's not the best thing but it's something. If you ever happen to be in that situation it's pretty useful.

Also for the people that were saying bola's take 0 skill to dismount someone with...you do know that's 0 skill for EVERY TEMPLATE to use them right? Use them yourself.. there's nothing holding you back from it.

 

[Locryn Finck]

Bolas are totally balanced. They have always been a solid pvp tool, without being overpowered.

And good for you for sticking with mele in a difficult time. But your commitment does not change the fact that archery heavy dismounts are out of balance with the rest of the game. If that is what you are advocating (maybe I am misunderstanding)

 

[puni666]

Bolas are totally balanced. They have always been a solid pvp tool, without being overpowered.

And good for you for sticking with mele in a difficult time. But your commitment does not change the fact that archery heavy dismounts are out of balance with the rest of the game. If that is what you are advocating (maybe I am misunderstanding)

I'd say the only thing that needs changing is the damage range on some bows. And maybe more of a HCI deduction on moving shot... but if the damage range was changed then forget the deduction.

 

[red sky]

Perhaps archery dismount should be likend to that of throwing. In which we don't change the effective range of the dismount but the damage output is decreased by a percentage for each tile. So if you dismount from 8 tiles, there is a 80% damage reduction and if you dismount from 2 tiles there is a 20% damage reduction and so forth.

 

[puni666]

Perhaps archery dismount should be likend to that of throwing. In which we don't change the effective range of the dismount but the damage output is decreased by a percentage for each tile. So if you dismount from 8 tiles, there is a 80% damage reduction and if you dismount from 2 tiles there is a 20% damage reduction and so forth.

Or just give it the same damage range as a soul glaive. Heavy x bow's running shots are a killer too... Max DI makes them more effective then a AI (Not capped in damage).Lowering the damage would knock out two birds with one stone.

 

[Locryn Finck]

Again, we are veering into irrelevancy. Damage is in no way the issue. The immediate dismount at a distance IS. That is the only thing overpowered about archery at the moment. I have not read one single compelling point to the contrary this entire thread.