Regarding New Players and the Classic Client

[RaDian FlGith]

1. The Enhanced Client is still in "Beta" - We are slowly working towards getting the client to a point where we can consider it officially released. We don't want to do this until we are sure its ready.

Which is a good idea... the problem I perceive is that we've been in beta for months now and the changes and updates to the client are coming at a slow trickle. If it continues to be this way, the client will either (1) be in beta far into next year, or (2) be made "live" long before it's actually ready to be so (read: KR).

2. Their friend who got them to try it said the Classic Client is better - This is up to you guys. You might like the Classic Client better because you are used to it, but is it really the best client for a truly new player to use? Probably not.

I strongly disagree, and this is for a multitude of reasons. First, the EC is in a mish-mash state where it's a hybrid between KR and 2D. It is also, as you pointed out, still in beta. While I understand that the 2D client is definitely more difficult to add features to (probably from a lack of developer familiarity than ability, I would venture, but I haven't seen the code, so it's simply that). However, the 2D client is not a difficult client to master, and there is an inherent problem to doing what you're doing with the EC.

First, UO is a game unlike 99% of the games on the market. Yet, you're trying to update the client to match the interface of a majority of MMOs out there. That's a mistake in my opinion because UO is a virtual world where customization and choice are key -- it's not any other leveler out there. In making some of the design choices you've made, you detract from the UO experience. Now, I agree, a unified, easy to understand interface is paramount to learning the game... and that's where your focus should be, not on simply applying, broadstroke, everyone else's interface.

Second, while the EC is supposedly a new client from the ground up, it seems to suffer from a great many of the things that the 2D client is plagued by (it's strange that both clients render the same pop-through-floor graphics in the exact same way... that would be an area one would have expected to improve in the EC). Additionally, things that are server/client issues have yet to be addressed. There are at least three different quest systems active in the game... they should all be unified and updated to a single quest system. It makes no sense that you should have to click quest log for one set, right click yourself for another, and so forth. Additionally, items like axing an add-on vs. double-clicking an add-on for removing it (and the words "you destroy this" (or whatever it says with "destroy") should all be updated to a single method of removing add-ons. Also, things like the Fountain of Life and Elvish Dressers shouldn't need to be removed in order to go into customization mode. Houses should put everything back right where it came from. Housing interfaces should be improved to allow greater control (ie: pack this level, pack this house, et cetera to make redesign/redeco easier). These are just a small portion of your opportunities for improvement that you should be focusing on with a new client, but do not seem to be.

Lastly, the condition of the graphics in the EC is, quite frankly, bad, and would be deterrent to anyone who hasn't grown up on UO actually getting deep into the game. I know graphics don't make the game, but honesty, they're not even as good as the 2D client in as far as detail, which is strange given that they are from the same source.

To be blunt, the EC, while some people swear by it, is not currently worth supporting. Now, I'll happily continue to beta test it, and help to assist getting it where it should be, but understand that months of trickling updates to it do not bring it up to speed, nor do they give much by the way of faith to the masses that the client will survive any longer than the KR client did.

3. Their machine can't handle the Enhanced Client - A reality we have to face as UO developers is that many people play our game because it runs so well on older computers and computers that are not meant for gaming. It actually give us an advantage over other online games. Since the Classic Client renders the entire game entirely in software (without the use of a graphics card) it runs great on these machines. However, the Enhanced Client makes extensive use of your graphics card and some computers simply won't be able to run it well.

It's good that the 2D client keeps older players around, but really, at some point, you have to ask yourself if bringing UO into a modern era, and providing reason for old players to resubscribe and new players to subscribe is important enough to start phasing out the 2D client. Personally, if there were good enough reasons to adopt the EC over 2D, I think you'd see more and more computer upgrades... but you also need to keep in mind that with the EC, you need to have it set up for the ability to run under multiple systems... and right now it looks like you're setting it up to run at an optimum performance with very few adjustments that can be tweaked, and I feel this is a mistake.

In the end, at some point, you have to look at the game as a whole, get it updated so that things which are not coherent become so, and where whatever client the game is running on is capable of supporting both lower end and high end computers. With that, the game play must be attractive to a multitude of players (which I think it would be if things like PvP get fleshed out and AI improvements are made).

There's a lot of work to be done on UO, and I'm glad that there's some vision for the future, but certainly there needs to be action on that vision in greater than small steps, otherwise the future will be here, and we'll still be playing primarily on that 12-year-old live 2D client. This, regardless of the naysayers, would be a bad thing. And I too am still playing primarily the 2D client.

 

[Otis Firefly]

very very well said

 

[AtlanticVlad]

Well... This Seems like a can of worms to me... Haha...

Ok I totally agree with you on a bunch of your points
Totally think the EC should go for a more UO and less OTHER MMO feel... I refuse to touch it while its going in its current direction.

I also tend to agree with you on the fact that its lack of dev familiarity I also think its horrible that they got rid of some of the folks that actually were familiar... *Shakes his head* but at the same time having seen whats happened in the past when they start poking at code they don't understand. I'd rather they not touch add ons or deeds or housing type stuff of that nature. They already broke deco enough recently I'd rather they not do any more of that.

But by all means fix the quest type stuff and things of that nature in 12 years I've only ever done like 7 quests and I don't plan to start now. Really though about the EC no worries it will go the way of the dodo soon enough. I wish they had just done the high res client years ago and taken a half a decade to do so, instead of wasting all this time with all these clients no one likes.

 

[Zayin666]

instead of wasting all this time with all these clients no one likes.

Excuse me? Some of us actually think the EC client is far superior to the old and outdated classic client

 

[VorteXPete]

I wish too people wouldn,t say no one likes and just say I don,t like or use.There are many who use it. To get new people playing you can,t honestly believe they wil like 2d. But also ec still has a lotta work left,but is very playable now.

 

[Fink]

Regarding those options I would say to a new person:

Classic client is 15 years old but what the majority of people still use. Most of those people would use UO:Assist, which is an extra program you buy to help you use Classic. It has the advantage of running on netbooks and other low-spec machines. It has a retro look.

Enhanced client is the new client beta but it's free and you won't need to buy any extra programs for it. It does most of what Classic + Assist does, plus a whole bunch of stuff that they don't. It's more like other MMOs to operate but the gameplay is otherwise identical to Classic.

---

Each client has pros and cons. I think we can present the facts to new players without personal preference tainting our advice. We owe it to new players, our future, to afford them the most informed choice for their needs.

 

[Merion]

Regarding those options I would say to a new person:

Classic client is 15 years old but what the majority of people still use. Most of those people would use UO:Assist, which is an extra program you buy to help you use Classic.

Actually if you want to be honest, you should say:
Classic client is 15 years old but what the majority of people still use. Most of those people would use UO:Assist or more likely E***UO. (Dunno if it's aloud to say that name out loud here). Because seriously, of all people I know that are still using the classic client, 80% are using scripts. From harmless one to sort through crates of jewelry to afk skill training or resource gathering to full blown cheats like treehacks, speedhacks and more. And of course some of them are now changing to EC because they learn "Oh, i don't have to use scripts anymore to do XY!" and other stick to classic because "Meh! My hacks won't work anymore with EC, I'd lose my edge."

So, that's another pro for EC in my book - no darn scripting or hacking!

 

[Fink]

All good points

In either case, I would urge them to create a stratics account and get on the forums, and also check out the uoguide and spellweave sites among others.

 

[altarego]

Which is a good idea... the problem I perceive is that we've been in beta for months now and the changes and updates to the client are coming at a slow trickle. If it continues to be this way, the client will either (1) be in beta far into next year, or (2) be made "live" long before it's actually ready to be so (read: KR).

I strongly disagree, and this is for a multitude of reasons. First, the EC is in a mish-mash state where it's a hybrid between KR and 2D. It is also, as you pointed out, still in beta. While I understand that the 2D client is definitely more difficult to add features to (probably from a lack of developer familiarity than ability, I would venture, but I haven't seen the code, so it's simply that). However, the 2D client is not a difficult client to master, and there is an inherent problem to doing what you're doing with the EC.

First, UO is a game unlike 99% of the games on the market. Yet, you're trying to update the client to match the interface of a majority of MMOs out there. That's a mistake in my opinion because UO is a virtual world where customization and choice are key -- it's not any other leveler out there. In making some of the design choices you've made, you detract from the UO experience. Now, I agree, a unified, easy to understand interface is paramount to learning the game... and that's where your focus should be, not on simply applying, broadstroke, everyone else's interface.

Second, while the EC is supposedly a new client from the ground up, it seems to suffer from a great many of the things that the 2D client is plagued by (it's strange that both clients render the same pop-through-floor graphics in the exact same way... that would be an area one would have expected to improve in the EC). Additionally, things that are server/client issues have yet to be addressed. There are at least three different quest systems active in the game... they should all be unified and updated to a single quest system. It makes no sense that you should have to click quest log for one set, right click yourself for another, and so forth. Additionally, items like axing an add-on vs. double-clicking an add-on for removing it (and the words "you destroy this" (or whatever it says with "destroy") should all be updated to a single method of removing add-ons. Also, things like the Fountain of Life and Elvish Dressers shouldn't need to be removed in order to go into customization mode. Houses should put everything back right where it came from. Housing interfaces should be improved to allow greater control (ie: pack this level, pack this house, et cetera to make redesign/redeco easier). These are just a small portion of your opportunities for improvement that you should be focusing on with a new client, but do not seem to be.

Lastly, the condition of the graphics in the EC is, quite frankly, bad, and would be deterrent to anyone who hasn't grown up on UO actually getting deep into the game. I know graphics don't make the game, but honesty, they're not even as good as the 2D client in as far as detail, which is strange given that they are from the same source.

To be blunt, the EC, while some people swear by it, is not currently worth supporting. Now, I'll happily continue to beta test it, and help to assist getting it where it should be, but understand that months of trickling updates to it do not bring it up to speed, nor do they give much by the way of faith to the masses that the client will survive any longer than the KR client did.

It's good that the 2D client keeps older players around, but really, at some point, you have to ask yourself if bringing UO into a modern era, and providing reason for old players to resubscribe and new players to subscribe is important enough to start phasing out the 2D client. Personally, if there were good enough reasons to adopt the EC over 2D, I think you'd see more and more computer upgrades... but you also need to keep in mind that with the EC, you need to have it set up for the ability to run under multiple systems... and right now it looks like you're setting it up to run at an optimum performance with very few adjustments that can be tweaked, and I feel this is a mistake.

In the end, at some point, you have to look at the game as a whole, get it updated so that things which are not coherent become so, and where whatever client the game is running on is capable of supporting both lower end and high end computers. With that, the game play must be attractive to a multitude of players (which I think it would be if things like PvP get fleshed out and AI improvements are made).

There's a lot of work to be done on UO, and I'm glad that there's some vision for the future, but certainly there needs to be action on that vision in greater than small steps, otherwise the future will be here, and we'll still be playing primarily on that 12-year-old live 2D client. This, regardless of the naysayers, would be a bad thing. And I too am still playing primarily the 2D client.

A client that is as user-focused and intensive as for an MMORPG can *never* be released fully functional. Else you risk ruining the customer experience by implying its lack of flexibility. They're just covering their asses when they say it's beta. Ultimately, every client released now will be in "beta" while they work behind the scenes to make it useful for the player base as a whole.

 

[altarego]

And this brings up another point:


Ultima Online is an ever changing, beautiful, monstrous piece of work. It has evolved over time. And yet people want the client to access it to be some never-changing monolithic piece of code?

Please. That's like asking your mom to have your babies. Get over your Oedipal complexes you 'classic' client people.

 

[ACB1961]

Actually if you want to be honest, you should say:
Classic client is 15 years old but what the majority of people still use. Most of those people would use UO:Assist or more likely E***UO. (Dunno if it's aloud to say that name out loud here). Because seriously, of all people I know that are still using the classic client, 80% are using scripts. From harmless one to sort through crates of jewelry to afk skill training or resource gathering to full blown cheats like treehacks, speedhacks and more. And of course some of them are now changing to EC because they learn "Oh, i don't have to use scripts anymore to do XY!" and other stick to classic because "Meh! My hacks won't work anymore with EC, I'd lose my edge."

So, that's another pro for EC in my book - no darn scripting or hacking!

I don't even use uoa, but I never even thought about that advantage. I am 100% in favor or doing away with scripts. Here's something to think about though. You can bet your bottom dollar some of these people are going to write scripts for the ec. There are some very fine minds that deal with uo. Devious folks that for some reason want to spend lots and lots of time to make the smallest amount of money in the world cheating at this game. They have been soo successful 1m gold is now .55 instead of 100.00.

But, think about it this way. What have they gained? Most of us tip more money a year in restaurants than they will ever make now. They could make 100 times more money if they turned these fine minds to ANYTHING else in the world.

I LOVE the old client. I don't love it because I cheat. I'm from a different world. In the world I came from if you cheat to succeed you actually lose. You can never be anything if the foundation you stand on is a lie. It's like when 4 people run up and gank a player they could NEVER kill any other way. Then, spend all night telling each other how great they are. It's like when you speedhack, and use potion cheats, and scripts because otherwise you would be dead EVERY single time. Maybe people you will never meet think you are great, but inside you know you are NOTHING. People that don't cheat aren't stupid or weak. They have honor. I'd rather die to a better player than cheat to beat him. There is no shame in being beaten by someone better. And, there will always be someone, somewhere that is better on any given day.

 

[Yen Sid]

That's like asking your mom to have your babies.

Eww. Anyway, I only play the EC and find it much better as a whole than the CC. I am having zero problems with it since the patch after Halloween that fixed the crashing and black spots. There are a couple of graphical hiccups like images blinking but other than that I much rather play the EC and if they scrap it they will probably lose one subscription from me, some from other people too IMO.

 

[Landicine]

While I upgraded my computer to play KR, many don't always have that luxury, especially with many of us worried about money. I agree with their decision not to take a heavy-handed "upgrade or quit" approach. The old client isn't going away right now.

As for the new client, I am torn. I love some of the options it has. I love some of the neat things players have made for it (like the one that saves npc books to a text file). However, I don't really like graphics, and I don't have the patience right now to completely master the interface for everything I want to do in game.

I want there to be a good 3D client for UO. I enjoyed seeing the beautiful world of Ultima IX even if the plot and bugs made the game problematic. I know this is where there will be comments about how UO's fixed view makes such attractive graphics impossible, but there are 3D games with fixed views that seem to do it.

If I had to introduce a new player to the game, I'd still lean toward the 2D client.

 

[deadite]

2. Their friend who got them to try it said the Classic Client is better - This is up to you guys. You might like the Classic Client better because you are used to it, but is it really the best client for a truly new player to use? Probably not.

I strongly disagree, and this is for a multitude of reasons. First, the EC is in a mish-mash state where it's a hybrid between KR and 2D. It is also, as you pointed out, still in beta. While I understand that the 2D client is definitely more difficult to add features to (probably from a lack of developer familiarity than ability, I would venture, but I haven't seen the code, so it's simply that). However, the 2D client is not a difficult client to master, and there is an inherent problem to doing what you're doing with the EC.

I strongly disagree with you, for personal reasons. Since the EC was released, I have gotten a few personal friends to finally try UO because the interface was modernized. These are people who laughed at the classic client and wouldn't even bother giving it a shot, no matter how much I asked them. Two of them are still playing, one decided that the game wasn't for him. The classic client, from all accounts, is a spaghetti mess of code... a lot of which were written by dozens and dozens of devs with their own styles over a period of 15 years. Honestly, you expect someone to "familiarize" themself with that and happily start cranking out new features?

First, UO is a game unlike 99% of the games on the market. Yet, you're trying to update the client to match the interface of a majority of MMOs out there. That's a mistake in my opinion because UO is a virtual world where customization and choice are key -- it's not any other leveler out there. In making some of the design choices you've made, you detract from the UO experience. Now, I agree, a unified, easy to understand interface is paramount to learning the game... and that's where your focus should be, not on simply applying, broadstroke, everyone else's interface.

The game is exactly the same, as is the level of interaction. What does it matter if there are new buttons to press to achieve the same thing. Are you still using Word '95? They even built in a scriptable mod interface so that the level of customization is even GREATER than that of the classic client.

Second, while the EC is supposedly a new client from the ground up, it seems to suffer from a great many of the things that the 2D client is plagued by (it's strange that both clients render the same pop-through-floor graphics in the exact same way... that would be an area one would have expected to improve in the EC). Additionally, things that are server/client issues have yet to be addressed. There are at least three different quest systems active in the game... they should all be unified and updated to a single quest system. It makes no sense that you should have to click quest log for one set, right click yourself for another, and so forth. Additionally, items like axing an add-on vs. double-clicking an add-on for removing it (and the words "you destroy this" (or whatever it says with "destroy") should all be updated to a single method of removing add-ons. Also, things like the Fountain of Life and Elvish Dressers shouldn't need to be removed in order to go into customization mode. Houses should put everything back right where it came from. Housing interfaces should be improved to allow greater control (ie: pack this level, pack this house, et cetera to make redesign/redeco easier). These are just a small portion of your opportunities for improvement that you should be focusing on with a new client, but do not seem to be.

These sound more like server issues than client. I seriously doubt that the "quest system" or the "housing customization system" are built into the client. I agree that these are improvements that would be nice to have, but they seem to lie outside of the EC and CC.

Lastly, the condition of the graphics in the EC is, quite frankly, bad, and would be deterrent to anyone who hasn't grown up on UO actually getting deep into the game. I know graphics don't make the game, but honesty, they're not even as good as the 2D client in as far as detail, which is strange given that they are from the same source.

Entirely your opinion. Mine is different. I happen to like the graphics.

To be blunt, the EC, while some people swear by it, is not currently worth supporting. Now, I'll happily continue to beta test it, and help to assist getting it where it should be, but understand that months of trickling updates to it do not bring it up to speed, nor do they give much by the way of faith to the masses that the client will survive any longer than the KR client did.

Not worth supporting because YOU don't like it? I personally think it's worth supporting and improving. Is your opinion more valuable than mine? Maybe we just cancel each other out, then.

It's good that the 2D client keeps older players around, but really, at some point, you have to ask yourself if bringing UO into a modern era, and providing reason for old players to resubscribe and new players to subscribe is important enough to start phasing out the 2D client.

Seriously, what in the heck do you think they are trying to do?

Personally, if there were good enough reasons to adopt the EC over 2D, I think you'd see more and more computer upgrades... but you also need to keep in mind that with the EC, you need to have it set up for the ability to run under multiple systems... and right now it looks like you're setting it up to run at an optimum performance with very few adjustments that can be tweaked, and I feel this is a mistake.

There's plenty of opportunity for them to continue streamlining and enhancing performance, but I guess since you don't think the new client is worth supporting, it will never get there. Oh well.

In the end, at some point, you have to look at the game as a whole, get it updated so that things which are not coherent become so, and where whatever client the game is running on is capable of supporting both lower end and high end computers. With that, the game play must be attractive to a multitude of players (which I think it would be if things like PvP get fleshed out and AI improvements are made).

This is the only good point you made in your entire rant/post. But I fear it will never happen... the server code is probably even more messy than the classic client code.

There's a lot of work to be done on UO, and I'm glad that there's some vision for the future, but certainly there needs to be action on that vision in greater than small steps, otherwise the future will be here, and we'll still be playing primarily on that 12-year-old live 2D client. This, regardless of the naysayers, would be a bad thing. And I too am still playing primarily the 2D client.

How do you travel 1000 miles? A mile at a time, that's how. I don't understand your comment about "small steps."

Anyway, my post is not meant to antagonize, but I know a rant when I see one.

 

[Zayin666]

Regarding those options I would say to a new person:

Classic client is 15 years old but what the majority of people still use. Most of those people would use UO:Assist, which is an extra program you buy to help you use Classic. It has the advantage of running on netbooks and other low-spec machines. It has a retro look.

Enhanced client is the new client beta but it's free and you won't need to buy any extra programs for it. It does most of what Classic + Assist does, plus a whole bunch of stuff that they don't. It's more like other MMOs to operate but the gameplay is otherwise identical to Classic.

---

Each client has pros and cons. I think we can present the facts to new players without personal preference tainting our advice. We owe it to new players, our future, to afford them the most informed choice for their needs.

This is all I asked when I posted the question to the devs... at least thats what I meant

 

[Gheed]

I agree with alot of your points. What really rubbed me the wrong way about this:

2. Their friend who got them to try it said the Classic Client is better - This is up to you guys. You might like the Classic Client better because you are used to it, but is it really the best client for a truly new player to use? Probably not.

was that it felt like a cheap shot against those that choose to continue to play the classic client. Personal preferences aside, if the classic client is what folks like to play then that's what folks like to play... for whatever reason. Same goes for those that prefer the beta.

Statements like the above divide the community and do little more than entrench each side in their stance. Threads like these pop up and everyone posts what they do or do not like about their clients.

It also gives me the impression that the devs feel the beta client is fine as is and it's not widely used because the most classic users are unwilling to change. That is completely wrong. When KR was introduced it was heavily downloaded. The timing was perfect as there were no other big titles to be realeased. It seemed the entire gaming world was anxious to see UO strut it's new stuff. People wanted it to be wonderful and they wanted to play it.....

kerplunk!

It was perhaps one of the biggest flops ever to hit the mainstream. A genuine reason for most... players and devs alike... to hang their head in shame. There was rarely a kind word to be said about it anywhere outside of a few loyal posters here on the boards.

SA just seems to prove you never get a second chance to make a first impression... especially with a rebuilt client that looks pretty much like KR. However they did fix my main KR show stoppers in SA. I log in to SA every now and then and fiddle with a few settings. But it usually ends with quirks like maxing my screen closes all my gumps, stepping on a house plot to watch everything slowly load, finding the right spot to double click on a chest to open it or staring at my rubber doll/action figure and the orange and gunmetal squares that make up a bland, lifeless UI.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I strongly disagree with you, for personal reasons. Since the EC was released, I have gotten a few personal friends to finally try UO because the interface was modernized. These are people who laughed at the classic client and wouldn't even bother giving it a shot, no matter how much I asked them. Two of them are still playing, one decided that the game wasn't for him. The classic client, from all accounts, is a spaghetti mess of code... a lot of which were written by dozens and dozens of devs with their own styles over a period of 15 years. Honestly, you expect someone to "familiarize" themself with that and happily start cranking out new features?

I think you're completely missing my point. I'm not suggesting at all that they abandon the Enhanced Client. I want them to spend time developing it further. What I think they are doing wrong, and why I think people are still playing the 2D client instead of the EC, is because, plain and simply, they're not focusing on issues that should be addressed to make it a successful client. I completely agree that the interface should be modernized as well... what I disagree with is slapping the WoW/EQ interface on top of UO and calling it "modern." What would bring UO to a modern standard isn't necessarily adopting the interface everyone else uses. Sure, it would bring them closer to "cookie cutter MMO experience," but in my opinion, that's a bad thing.

Why?

Because look at the number of failing cookie cutter MMOs out there. There's no reason to experience one over the other except for preference of the finer details. Ultima Online has a LOT to offer that a great many MMOs don't have to offer. They could streamline and modernize the interface without abandoning the things that make UO unique. For instance, I still think grid-view backpacks eliminate that special "virtual world" feel that UO has. Could the backpacks be bigger? Sure. But do they need to become a grid or list for ease of anything? Not really. Sure, it may be confusing in the first five minutes, but pretty much everyone figures out how the backpack works.

Modernization is good. Cookie-cuttering is bad.

The game is exactly the same, as is the level of interaction. What does it matter if there are new buttons to press to achieve the same thing. Are you still using Word '95? They even built in a scriptable mod interface so that the level of customization is even GREATER than that of the classic client.

Well, they built that into KR. And then reverted a lot of it in the EC. We can hope to see that again. I don't disagree that a LUA interface is good. I like that customized interfaces can be made. However, I will say that basic game functions should be a part of the basic game interface. Like Blizzard with WoW, I hope that Mythic with UO will adopt interface addons that the community enjoys directly into the interface, making certain addons obsolete as they move forward.

These sound more like server issues than client. I seriously doubt that the "quest system" or the "housing customization system" are built into the client. I agree that these are improvements that would be nice to have, but they seem to lie outside of the EC and CC.

As I indicated, they are a combination of client/server issues. The interface is client-side. The server could care less how it receives a "destroy this object" command. It could as easily come from double-clicking an object as from axing it. But yes, whatever polices this on the server-side would have to be updated too.

My point in mentioning these is that they are clear opportunities for streamlining the experience, and stuff that -- if they're concerned about addressing issues that confuse new players -- should be addressed.

Entirely your opinion. Mine is different. I happen to like the graphics.

I'm sorry, but it's not an opinion at all. In this particular instance, it is a fact.

To be fair, I tried to zoom out as close as possible in the EC to match the resolution of the 2D client, however, that's one of my biggest beefs with the EC is that regardless of zoom level, there are problems with items plain and simply losing detail. You can see this in this illustration by looking at the difference in the carpeting, or the difference in the flames of the candles, or even the chairs themselves.

Further, when I run in the 2D client, no, it's not 100% smooth, but it's not the weird flicker mess that it is in the EC.

This doesn't even tackle such simple things as how animated items appear in the client. Most of them blink uncontrollably. And in custom housing, while I LOVE the way waterfalls now look, if you want to continue your waterfall up onto a second level, it shows the required tiles underneath it, thus breaking the illusion of a waterfall.

These are graphical areas that should be addressed.

The other issue with the graphics is that currently we're not dealing with real textures, and specific-size bitmaps don't tend to zoom well. They tend to work best at even zooms such as 25%, 50%, 200%, 400%, but look pretty bad at say 67%, 105%, or 135%. These are issues that scale much better with textures.

Not worth supporting because YOU don't like it? I personally think it's worth supporting and improving. Is your opinion more valuable than mine? Maybe we just cancel each other out, then.

Not worth supporting as a full-fledged client. It's amazing that you can quote me without actually reading what you quoted. I specifically said I would continue to beta-test the thing. However, it is not as stable in its current state as the 2D client, and certainly not as reliable. This is not just my opinion. There are a vociferous few of you who seem to believe that the client is in much better condition than it truly is, and if you're willing to settle for a substandard client, be my guest. Personally, I expect the EC to be BETTER than the 2D client, or at least as good, and until it is, I'm not going to use it as my primary play client.

If you'll read, however, you will see that my desire is for it to become the replacement client. I specifically mention how I believe they can achieve that. I'm not here to BASH the EC, I'm simply trying to converse about how I believe Mythic's opinions on why people are using the 2D client over the EC are misguided.

Seriously, what in the heck do you think they are trying to do?

Right. I see you missed where I said that I believe that their focus is on the wrong things. My point in this post was to hopefully illuminate for them some of the issues that many of us 2D players have with the EC, while also trying to point out that there are issues that DO NOT appear to have their focus that would go a long way in clarifying the play experience for new players.

There's plenty of opportunity for them to continue streamlining and enhancing performance, but I guess since you don't think the new client is worth supporting, it will never get there. Oh well.

Again, great job at not reading what I have posted. The problem with "plenty of opportunity" vs. focusing on the important stuff that will allow more players to adopt the new client is exactly that the longer they take to fix them, the greater the mindset of "that client will never be worth supporting" comes into the playerbase. By the time they phased out the 3D client in favor of the KR client, the 3D client was every bit as good as the 2D client, and superior to it in many aspects. Its biggest issue was that they had never quite gotten mobs and avatar artwork down (which, ironically, plagued them on into KR and the EC). Yet, no matter how much the 3D client was superior to the 2D client, because of the length of time it took them to get the 3D client to that state as well as its rocky infancy, most 2D players never gave the 3D client another chance. They scrapped the KR client for many of the same reasons. My point in most of this is that I do NOT want to see that happen to the EC. But again, great job missing that.

This is the only good point you made in your entire rant/post. But I fear it will never happen... the server code is probably even more messy than the classic client code.

This is not a rant, but thanks for trying to get this moved to S&R. *golfclap* This was actually a serious post trying to be productive. Simply because you and several others failed to see that I was trying to help them IMPROVE what they're focusing on with the EC does not change that.

How do you travel 1000 miles? A mile at a time, that's how. I don't understand your comment about "small steps."

Yes, you do understand it. You've simply gotten it into your mind that I'm against your favorite client, and so now you're quibbling with minutia. My point is that the longer it takes for them to get the EC out of beta and up to speed, the more likely it is that they'll either scrap it or make it live before it's ready. Pretty sure I already said this, but since you missed it the first time, I hope you'll read it again and understand this simple point: NEITHER one of these options is a good thing. I WANT TO SEE THE EC SUCCEED. The longer they take to get it up to speed, the less likely it is that it ever will.

Anyway, my post is not meant to antagonize, but I know a rant when I see one.

No. You don't.

 

[HD2300]

To be fair, I tried to zoom out as close as possible in the EC to match the resolution of the 2D client, however, that's one of my biggest beefs with the EC is that regardless of zoom level, there are problems with items plain and simply losing detail. You can see this in this illustration by looking at the difference in the carpeting, or the difference in the flames of the candles, or even the chairs themselves.

If you showed the above picture to 100 people on the street and got them to tell you which is the 10 year old client, 100 would get it wrong.

 

[deadite]

...stuff...

If I misunderstood any of your points, it is simply because you failed to make them. And your insistence on presenting opinion as fact is annoying at best.

 

[OxAO]

I don't agree they should modernize the game with graphix.
They have tried it a number of times and failed as with your pic clearly illustrates. Please don't encourage them to try again.
Edit: have you noticed the grass area in the side by side? the grass looks like slop spattered on the screen in the new client.

Your right UO does offer things no other game does and that is what they should focus on.
Housing and PvP characteristics are unmatched anyplace else.

But I don't play PvP anymore because it is so not right at the moment and I don't like decorating my house. The game has been on kinda of a sad state for many years while they focus on new clients.

 

[slaveone]

If I misunderstood any of your points, it is simply because you failed to make them. And your insistence on presenting opinion as fact is annoying at best.

Actually man your annoying at best. All you want to do is coddle and stroke the EC like it's some great achievement. It's a big FAIL in my eyes and MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY other players eyes. People blatently just don't use it. The amount of EC players that slither out of the Stratics cracks to defend their holy grail of a client are the same tired few who say the same tired things. If you just read stratics you'd almost believe that there are TONS of people who like EC. The fact of the matter is it's a big facade. There is a SMALL minority that use EC and they are VERY vocal on these boards. Go to the "ACTUAL" game and ask around thats how you "REALLY" find out who's playing what. I've done it quite a few times. The results are easily 95% using the Legacy Client if not more! The only "new" client that will ever be accepted is one that looks like the legacy client, works like the legacy client, but has better features and higher resoultion looks. Thus far they have failed us in that respect. You can chock it up all day to just my opinion or some old fogys who refuses to learn a new client. But seriously give me a break. It has nothing to do with learning a new client there isn't even much to learn it's still UO. I've used them both enough to know whats up and i know that EC is not it!

You want to say all this about how UO assist has to be used for 2d to be viable. Yet i've played the game 11+ years in 2d never used UO Assist once haven't missed it! Yet with the EC you have to download all these iffy mods and crap to make the client "decent" at best. Seriously who wants to do that? NOT ME, and not 99% of "NEW" players. Do you actually believe someones gonna pick up EC new to the game and head straight to KR Mod exchange and mod up their new game to make it playable?!?! Dude your only fooling yourself cause we aren't buying that steaming BS your serving up! Heck the EC needs way more mods to even be acceptably useable by the EC fanbois yet 2d even if you claim UOAssist is needed for 2d which IT ISN'T only needs 1 or 2 if you count AutoMap?!?! This has nothing to do with all your poorly defended points and has everything to do with people blatently just NOT LIKING EC! Face the facts if EC was deleted tomarrow you EC client players would switch to 2d in a second. If 2d was deleted tomarrow UO would be OVER! That pretty much says it all far as i'm concerned!

 

[RaDian FlGith]

If I misunderstood any of your points, it is simply because you failed to make them. And your insistence on presenting opinion as fact is annoying at best.

I'm sorry if you're incapable of reading, incapable of understanding, and want to turn this into an EC vs. 2D thread. It was not designed to be such, nor was it a rant like you are trying to turn it into.

I am presenting no opinion as fact. The issue about the differences between graphic clarity between the two clients is NOT an opinion. To try to make it opinion would be like saying there's fundamentally no difference between the graphics on a Nintendo Wii and an Atari 2600. There is a significant difference, and it is not an opinion.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

If you showed the above picture to 100 people on the street and got them to tell you which is the 10 year old client, 100 would get it wrong.

Yeah... which is part of the issue. I believe the EC is capable of greater display, but we have yet to see it.

Whatever they do, however, they should make sure it is capable of being scaled across low to high end systems.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I don't agree they should modernize the game with graphix.
They have tried it a number of times and failed as with your pic clearly illustrates. Please don't encourage them to try again.
Edit: have you noticed the grass area in the side by side? the grass looks like slop spattered on the screen in the new client.

Well, as has been discussed in other threads, there is an appropriate way to update the graphics to higher resolution while still maintaining the look and feel of UO. The problem is that thus far they have not done so, instead replacing the graphics with either a completely new graphic set, or a strangely diluted version of the 2D graphics that don't look as good as the EC.

Personally, I encourage them to update the graphics, but to do it properly... upscale and improve the current 2D graphics for future use, and maintain that stylistic art.

Your right UO does offer things no other game does and that is what they should focus on.
Housing and PvP characteristics are unmatched anyplace else.

But I don't play PvP anymore because it is so not right at the moment and I don't like decorating my house. The game has been on kinda of a sad state for many years while they focus on new clients.

Well, I will say I'm extremely happy with what the current DevTeam has been doing. While there have been some bumps, they are showing they understand the game and what makes it popular. They simply need to give better focus on certain things. And if the EC is going to get a fair shake from more than a limited number of players, they need to work on improvements coming out a bit more frequently.

 

[Zayin666]

If you showed the above picture to 100 people on the street and got them to tell you which is the 10 year old client, 100 would get it wrong.

Maybe... but try to show those 100 people the actual clients side by side and Iam pretty sure those 100 people have no problem guessing what is what

Classic Client on a 20" running at 1680*1050 - Imagine the black area on a 24" running 1920*1200

Now the same spot in the EC...

And here are some UI gumps in both clients

Please note that all pictures have been jpeg compressed... there is no smearing in the actual clients

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Really? You get no smearing of any graphics at all in the EC? See, what's strange is that even with JPEG compression, the 2D client still looks more clear (check your floor tiles and the soulforge for comparison), but the EC "smears" with JPEG compression?

See, the other interesting thing is that I run a high end system with plenty of devoted graphic RAM (2gb to be precise) and yet, nothing I do makes the EC not get jaggy when moving, nor corrects the display issues.

I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to have "no issue" with the display though.

As far as the gumps go, the only thing that clarifies which version is which are the MMO toolbars and the grid view. Everything else is similarly styled enough in both clients that there is no special discernment. As I've tried to indicate elsewhere in this thread, overlapping "MMO interface" onto UO is not the focus they should be giving a new client.

 

[Salya Sin]

Ok... I just encountered a HUGE issue with anyone wanting to DL the classic client. AND I can see this being a very big problem for the new players...

The current DL version of the classic client is a couple of years behind in patches. Seriously... I just had to do an install (while cleaning my computer I deleted the wrong UO version)... and it took HOURS to get all the patches... starting with 2007. Now... you'd think that they would post a version that is, at the very least, POST SAMURAI EMPIRE?!? As the patches were still UOSE-6's...

I understand that they are low on staff... BUT... shouldn't a newer version have been posted along side the new SA version?

I feel bad for every new player that has to go through that tedious process.

 

[Zayin666]

Really? You get no smearing of any graphics at all in the EC? See, what's strange is that even with JPEG compression, the 2D client still looks more clear (check your floor tiles and the soulforge for comparison), but the EC "smears" with JPEG compression?

See, the other interesting thing is that I run a high end system with plenty of devoted graphic RAM (2gb to be precise) and yet, nothing I do makes the EC not get jaggy when moving, nor corrects the display issues.

I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to have "no issue" with the display though.

As far as the gumps go, the only thing that clarifies which version is which are the MMO toolbars and the grid view. Everything else is similarly styled enough in both clients that there is no special discernment. As I've tried to indicate elsewhere in this thread, overlapping "MMO interface" onto UO is not the focus they should be giving a new client.

Well.. for me "Overlapping MMO interface" is exactly what they need to do to get and hold new players. I can see what you mean about the floor tiles.... but in my book those floor tiles are fine as long as I get the other features... After playing the EC for some months I actually find the CC to be very ugly...all those sharp edges makes it look unnatural and kid of catoonish to me... but thats just my oppinion.
Also the text from the chat is very cramped and looks odd... the char and mounts looks small and well... ugly... and I seemed to remember the paperdoll as something people thought was bad in the new client.. really?? I find the EC paperdoll much more usefull and you can actually see your chars face

So... I agree some floor tiles and xmas garlands and other minor graphich details could be sharpend up in the EC, but Idd rather they bring in more features from other games first...
- Global/area chat
- Improved guild and party menu
- Even better build in map showing party/guildmembers
- Locked hotbars

And of course fix bugs, glitches and so on.. I dont say there is nothing wrong with the EC... its in beta, so it cant be perfect

 

[jfkeach]

Actually if you want to be honest, you should say:
Classic client is 15 years old but what the majority of people still use. Most of those people would use UO:Assist or more likely E***UO. (Dunno if it's aloud to say that name out loud here). Because seriously, of all people I know that are still using the classic client, 80% are using scripts. From harmless one to sort through crates of jewelry to afk skill training or resource gathering to full blown cheats like treehacks, speedhacks and more. And of course some of them are now changing to EC because they learn "Oh, i don't have to use scripts anymore to do XY!" and other stick to classic because "Meh! My hacks won't work anymore with EC, I'd lose my edge."

So, that's another pro for EC in my book - no darn scripting or hacking!

You might consider this. Some people use the Legacy Client solely because 3d makes them physically ill. Believe it or not, some people can't play 3d games because the graphics messes with their equillibrium, making them nauseaous and gives them severe migraines, such as you get with motion sickness. Some movies cause the same sickness.

That is why my xbox 360 is a Dvd Player and media center extender for my computer, and why I use it to mainly watch Netflix. Ive tried WoW, Doom, Halo, and countless other games, and why the only game I can play more than 10 minutes is UO legacy client. Not for any third party program. I do use UOAssist of three of my 4 accounts.

Even with state of the art computers, the movement in 3d renders in such a way I get these symptoms. And believe it or not, this condition is VERY COMMON, although not as severely as mine. The day I get told the only client I can play is 3d is the day I close 4 accounts and say goodbye to the world of UO. Ive taken two extended breaks from UO. Once for almost three years, and once for year and a half. During those breaks the only games i played were chess and freecell.

 

[Zayin666]

You might consider this. Some people use the Legacy Client solely because 3d makes them physically ill. Believe it or not, some people can't play 3d games because the graphics messes with their equillibrium, making them nauseaous and gives them severe migraines, such as you get with motion sickness. Some movies cause the same sickness.

That is why my xbox 360 is a Dvd Player and media center extender for my computer, and why I use it to mainly watch Netflix. Ive tried WoW, Doom, Halo, and countless other games, and why the only game I can play more than 10 minutes is UO legacy client. Not for any third party program. I do use UOAssist of three of my 4 accounts.

Even with state of the art computers, the movement in 3d renders in such a way I get these symptoms. And believe it or not, this condition is VERY COMMON, although not as severely as mine. The day I get told the only client I can play is 3d is the day I close 4 accounts and say goodbye to the world of UO. Ive taken two extended breaks from UO. Once for almost three years, and once for year and a half. During those breaks the only games i played were chess and freecell.

I think you posted this in another thread also?? UO EC is NOT 3d. perspective wise there is no difference between the legacy client and the new enhanced client... there was and there will probally never be a 3d client for UO.

 

[Lord Frodo]

I think you posted this in another thread also?? UO EC is NOT 3d. perspective wise there is no difference between the legacy client and the new enhanced client... there was and there will probally never be a 3d client for UO.

You are right, it is not 3D but it still affects people with this problem the same way a 3D game does. I can play UO CC all day and have no problem. Play EC and 30 - 45 min later I am done for the day.

 

[Zayin666]

You are right, it is not 3D but it still affects people with this problem the same way a 3D game does. I can play UO CC all day and have no problem. Play EC and 30 - 45 min later I am done for the day.

Very interesting... Is it perhaps the bigger gamewindow? Try to resize it down to the size of the 2d client maybe? I really dont see how the ingame graphics can cause this... but then again Iam not a doctor so might be wrong