Imbuing Skill Jewelry wont this cause templete unbalance issue's?

[Marcus Blackwell]

Ive been hearing how you can get to up to 130 to 180 total skill point on jewelry alone with Imbuing when you add the skill points to the ring, bracelet, ear rings, and even necklace wont this totaly unbalance thigns even worse templete wise?

 

[Ender]

Yet they sacrifice other mods for those skills. And if you haven't noticed, you can't just add any 5 skills on one piece.

 

[Maplestone]

This is an area that needs more people testing to see if they can create something that's broken: can you still make an effective suit after devoting up to 20 mods to +skill, mods that could have been used for other things.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Yep! it definitely will for some templates, not so much for others, but basically for any template that doesn't rely completely on items. Tamers, PvM Mages, Bards, Archers. Archers a little less than the other 3.

Oh btw, who wants to have a 50-60 real taming skill tamer?? You can if you're a gargoyle!

 

[ACB1961]

Ive been hearing how you can get to up to 130 to 180 total skill point on jewelry alone with Imbuing when you add the skill points to the ring, bracelet, ear rings, and even necklace wont this totaly unbalance thigns even worse templete wise?

You must have missed that chick with the 831 skill points that was talking the other day.

If you have enough gold or good enough rng luck you can have a CRAZY char now (much less after sa comes out).

 

[gjohnson5]

This is an area that needs more people testing to see if they can create something that's broken: can you still make an effective suit after devoting up to 20 mods to +skill, mods that could have been used for other things.

Yep
Seems like you' have low mods elsewhere.

 

[Uthar Pendragon]

ring,bracer and earrings with 3 skills and room for one additional mod each. note this does not include necklaces. so thats 45 points of skill on each, times 3=135 (180 with the necklace). plus the additional mod. sacraficing little of what can be put into a suit to make up for that. plus not to mention weapons/spellbooks that can be equipped with more mods. How is this not going to totally screw things up? if there is any slightest chance an item can be created at some point it will be. I dont care how hard/rare the possibilities, someone will get lucky with the RNG. this dont even take into account the skill items currently in existance. What was the template that was nerfed because of being able to stay in wrath form without jewels (honestly I forget what the name was) but that template will be back even more powerful than before. I feel this will be very unbalancing and will ruin whats left of pvp (this coming from someone who dont pvp much if at all)

 

[red sky]

I feel this will be very unbalancing and will ruin whats left of pvp (this coming from someone who dont pvp much if at all)

Oh, I think it's going to be the other way around. Considering EVERYONE will have the ability to make an item like this and also be able to make the UBER mage weapons that were created with all of the monopolized, DUPED VAL hammers that stormed the market. I think IMBUING is actually the key to reviving this game. It will make all uber, ******** items available to the common player and allow everyone a fair chance at PVP. So therefore my friend, your argument is null and void. (This coming from someone who PVP's on a regular basis)

P.S. I did receive a beta code before the open beta and have tested imbuing extensively. Indeed you can create uber items that are totally ridiculous. But, from what I hear, they may perhaps limit it to 4 mods. I do know that certain mods are not allowed together with max intensity. Ex. I created a composite bow with 50 fire area, 50 fireball and 50 velocity, but that is all that it will let you add on the item without it saying "The item would become too unstable if another property was added". So yes, the DEVS are actually doing something to try and create a balance with this new, awesome skill.

 

[It Lives]

This will be awesome for my (everything mage template).

A template that can handle most occasions.

I can now create some items to beef up some really average resists with out losing important features such as fc/fcr/lrc.

So far I have not seen anything game breaking, and there needs to be some kind of incentive to make a garg with imbuing.

Imbuing as it is now sure looks like a win.

Anyone can create a char with imbuing I fail to see where the imbalance is.

The Jones have more than me so its unbalanced?

I may even be able to create some gear to compete with now.

Tuck your nerf stick back where it came from for now, there is plenty of time for the team to make adjustments if they are really needed.

 

[Sarsmi]

I'm excited about this. I have a t hunter tamer with music/disco who has been in a bind for a while. Can't get taming to 120 except with jewelry for actual taming, can't get disco any higher cause there is no room. Basically I'm stuck, even with swapping lockpick and carto for each other. It's tough enough getting 100% LRC and some luck on her, and her resists are terrible!

This is a boon to people with cramped templates, and certainly the skills are going to take up slots that otherwise would have gone to things like LRC, HCI, etc etc. Everyone can do it if they want to mess with it.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Seriously guys give it a go before jumping the gun. There seems to be a lot of limiting factors to kind of keep checks and balances.


Yes you can embue Earrings and Necklaces, the down side is only gargs can wear imbuded earrings and necklaces and they can't wear any other kind of head gear. So sure you can put 5 +15 skills there and have 0 resists for the head. Another down side seems to be that that 5th mod is a killer to get it on there at full intensity. Spent hours making a suit early for a tamer, and I only managed to get 1 5 Mod piece of armor out of the full set before giving up in frustration. Even with near limitless mats I was almost out of many mats just making that 1 suit lol.

Imagining the potential of imbuing can send ones head reeling, the reality of it not so much. There is a lot that can be done, but I have run into many limiting factors that make it not so ubber. Still good, just not the be all end all. Also keep in mind these imbued items can't be fortified. They can be repaired but there gonna to be taking hits on max durrability and theres no powders to bump it back up.


I'm not saying there can't be any issue's with it, I am simply saying if you think it can be broken or be over powerd in some way try what you are thinking will do it. Keep tabs of what it took to make mats wise, how many fails, and if you were using the +3 Soulforge or the one without any bonus.

 

[popps]

Yet they sacrifice other mods for those skills. And if you haven't noticed, you can't just add any 5 skills on one piece.

Perhaps not 5 at 100% but what about 5 at 80% ?

Skill wise, it still makes it for 120 skill points more only on a bracelet and ring.

It is a whole 7th skill possible...........

And on a suit all other mods can be added........

For those having the resources and wealth to burn imbuing can bring that uber suit impossible to fight.

It basically widens, the way I see it, the gap between the haves and the have not of the game.

Not good, IMHO, not good at all.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Perhaps not 5 at 100% but what about 5 at 80% ?

Skill wise, it still makes it for 120 skill points more only on a bracelet and ring.

It is a whole 7th skill possible...........

And on a suit all other mods can be added........

For those having the resources and wealth to burn imbuing can bring that uber suit impossible to fight.

It basically widens, the way I see it, the gap between the haves and the have not of the game.

Not good, IMHO, not good at all.

I have on one of my tamers

Mark of Travesty - 10 lore 10 Taming
Bird slayer Taly - 5 lore 5 taming
A ring with 15 Taming and 15 Peacing
A bracelet with 15 Animal Lore and 15 Musicianship (Both ring and bracelet cost me a good bit when I got them)
Song Woven Mantel - 10 Music


So on the live server I play on my bard tamer has a 100 Extra skill points

And you're complaining about an extra 120

so....................... you're complaining about 20 extra skill points?

I would hate to think how much I could get with a mage oO

Crystaline ring - 20 Magery
Brace - 15 Magery, 14 Meditation (one I have, I am sure finding 2 15's on a brace for magery isn't overly hard)
Book - 10 Magery 10 Eval Int (Think i've seen this on some scrappers)
Midnight Bracers - +20 Necro
Bloodwood Spirit - +5 Necro, + 10 Spirit Speak

That there is already 105 and I haven't even thrown in a Mark of Travesty for it oO. Mark of travesty bumps the total of this set tooooo *Drum Roll*

124.

So now you are complaining about ........ wait thats over the 120 so..............

Point is 120 extra skill points is already possible without imbuing or at least very close.

The balance in place for imbuing is that Gargs can't alter a lot of the better arties so that they can wear them. They can't wear head gear, gloves, etc. So there neck and earrings are two major parts of there gear suddenly and they really must be imbued to be useful lol.

Balance for humans and elve's? They can't wear imbued earrings and necklaces.

Back to you popps!

 

[bob da builder]

us so mean gray ghost j/k

 

[MissEcho]

Imbuing is probably the ONE thing in SA that is likely to undergo major change.

One thing to note is that the imbalance is made because atm:

Humans/Elfs: 6 x armor slots, 2 x jewelry slots
Gargoyles: 4 x armor slots, 4 x jewelry slots

When imbuing you can only put certain mods on certainly pieces to the max intensities that are NORMAL for that mod. ie resists on Jewelry can ONLY go to 15% but on armors they can go to 26% (or something like that using a brk mod for eg) DCI or HCI can only go on jewelry, MR can only go on armor etc, skills can only go on jewelry, ie you cannot normally 'craft' armor with skills on unless it is an ML arti piece which is a dif thing altogether.

The gargoyle jewelry bits (earrings/necklace) should really only be able to be inbued with 'Armor' mods to make it 'balanced'. This has been suggested as one thing that needs to be looked at. The difference in resists has been made up for in that 'normal' exceptionally crafted plain leather for a human contains 35 resists, the gargoyle stuff contains 52 resists. So 6 x human armor pieces = total of 210 resists, and 4 x gargoyle armor pieces = total of 208 resists which is comparable. However, the unbalance comes with the fact that a human can technically imbue 6 bits with 2 MR totaling 12 MR as opposed to a gargoyle who only has the option to imbue 4 bits with 2 MR making a total of 8 MR. Alternatively the gargoyle can imbue 4 pieces with skills or dci/hci/sdi where as the human/elf can only imbue 2. This is a MAJOR imbalance to the whole mod issue between races.

You cant say it is a 'fair' trade off that one Race A can do more of xyz mods and Race B can do more abc mods, as mods are really dependent on character CLASS not race. You don't design armor suits for humans elves gargoyles, you design them for tamers, bards, mages, dexors etc. It can never be a fair trade off and really needs to be looked at.

I see a lot of 'misinformation' on imbuing and arguing whether or not it is overpowered or not. What I am seeing is those who have put a LOT of work into it over the months are generally coming to the conclusion that the whole thing needs a lot of work, it is too much to ask us to repeat all that has been being fed to the devs in beta forum again in stratics as this is one topic that has been HUGE and we are technically not allowed to 'quote' others from the beta without their permission, so while I can post all 'my' input I can't give alternative inputs or explain why I would input something without using the feedback from others.

All I know is that the ones who think it is OK are ones who have made one godly item they always wanted and don't want the skill changed as it means they may not get their godly item. Those who have put a lot of work into it who don't technically have an agenda but are looking at the balance of the skill in terms of overall longevity, end game, balance are finding it needs to have a large rework and are basically pretty vocal to that end.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Imbuing is probably the ONE thing in SA that is likely to undergo major change.

One thing to note is that the imbalance is made because atm:

Humans/Elfs: 6 x armor slots, 2 x jewelry slots
Gargoyles: 4 x armor slots, 4 x jewelry slots

When imbuing you can only put certain mods on certainly pieces to the max intensities that are NORMAL for that mod. ie resists on Jewelry can ONLY go to 15% but on armors they can go to 26% (or something like that using a brk mod for eg) DCI or HCI can only go on jewelry, MR can only go on armor etc, skills can only go on jewelry, ie you cannot normally 'craft' armor with skills on unless it is an ML arti piece which is a dif thing altogether.

The gargoyle jewelry bits (earrings/necklace) should really only be able to be inbued with 'Armor' mods to make it 'balanced'. This has been suggested as one thing that needs to be looked at. The difference in resists has been made up for in that 'normal' exceptionally crafted plain leather for a human contains 35 resists, the gargoyle stuff contains 52 resists. So 6 x human armor pieces = total of 210 resists, and 4 x gargoyle armor pieces = total of 208 resists which is comparable. However, the unbalance comes with the fact that a human can technically imbue 6 bits with 2 MR totaling 12 MR as opposed to a gargoyle who only has the option to imbue 4 bits with 2 MR making a total of 8 MR. Alternatively the gargoyle can imbue 4 pieces with skills or dci/hci/sdi where as the human/elf can only imbue 2. This is a MAJOR imbalance to the whole mod issue between races.

You cant say it is a 'fair' trade off that one Race A can do more of xyz mods and Race B can do more abc mods, as mods are really dependent on character CLASS not race. You don't design armor suits for humans elves gargoyles, you design them for tamers, bards, mages, dexors etc. It can never be a fair trade off and really needs to be looked at.

I see a lot of 'misinformation' on imbuing and arguing whether or not it is overpowered or not. What I am seeing is those who have put a LOT of work into it over the months are generally coming to the conclusion that the whole thing needs a lot of work, it is too much to ask us to repeat all that has been being fed to the devs in beta forum again in stratics as this is one topic that has been HUGE and we are technically not allowed to 'quote' others from the beta without their permission, so while I can post all 'my' input I can't give alternative inputs or explain why I would input something without using the feedback from others.

All I know is that the ones who think it is OK are ones who have made one godly item they always wanted and don't want the skill changed as it means they may not get their godly item. Those who have put a lot of work into it who don't technically have an agenda but are looking at the balance of the skill in terms of overall longevity, end game, balance are finding it needs to have a large rework and are basically pretty vocal to that end.

Actually I have made a few godly suit sets for different jobs checking things out. Bouncing back and forth between + 3 Bonus and +0 bonus to imbuing and making each suit set twice on on the + Bonus forge and one on the + 0 Forge.

The balance I am speaking of is the fact that most of the arties that could make these suits way OP'd aren't available to Gargs. Thats a simple fact. Sure I can have some massive extra skill points but I have to sacrifice a lot of other mods to get them.

Lets say (considering this is what popps seems to be worried about the most are +skill items) I take my earrings, necklace, bracelet and ring and dedicate them to +skill items.

That leaves me with 4 armor pieces to worry about Resists, LRC, LMC, HR, MR, and so on and so forth. My supper skill suits have had to sacrifice almost all other mods for resists on those last 4 pieces and that 5th resist is a pain in the arse. No Max SDI, No Max LRC, No Max LMC, No Max FC/FCR, I got lots of skill but now I am severly lacking on that perfomance boost everyone else has.

So no I haven't found the imbalence yet. Don't worry though I will keep at it, because the imbuing is what the Devs want us testing atm.

But hey always happy to jump in a debunk a "Anyone saying they don't agree with me hasn't even tried it yet" type spills.

I'm more or less looking at what Gargs can't use vs. what they can make.
While I can see the little picture of
"OMG .........that Ring is OP"

+15 Magery
+15 Eval Int
+15 Necro
+20 LRC
+12 SDI

I can also see what it's up against

Crystaline Ring

+20 Magery
+20 Focus
+20 SDI
HR 5
MR 3

I will do you one better, lets Imbue this ring!

+15 Magery
+15 Focus (We could Pick +15 Eval Int though!)
+12 SDI
+MR 2
+HR 2

And thats if you get the 5th Mod to stick. Thats not an easy task lol.

Crystaline ring wins....... by a good bit even with picking Eval Int because thats almost double the SDI, 5 extra magery, 3 extra HR and 1 extra MR and 20 Focus actually gives you 1 MR and a little stamina regen.


With the arties already in the game I really am not seeing how game breaking imbuing can be compared to them. The Devs seemed to have taken some pretty good precautions against anything being OP'd.

Further testing may reveal some extra artifacts that Gargs shouldn't be allowed to use but for now things are looking relatively balanced. Humans and Elves I was worried about due to the earrings and necklace, that could be game breaking. Seems the devs have already thought about that and BAM Garg only and in return no head gear or gorget.

Anyways, as I said this is just the start of my testing and I haven't done but maybe 12 suits now. I will be doing several more to get some solid figures for my spread sheet so I may come across something that changes my mind. For now though looking pretty good.

 

[Ailish]

GrayGhost - since you have done some rather extensive testing with the skill, I have a few questions.

* Where do you think imbuing, in its current state, leaves other crafting skills?
* How does the randomness and rarity of a runic stack up against imbuing?
* Can you see yourself using other crafting skills still if imbuing goes live as it is (other than for making *blank* exceptionals to imbue on)?
* What about monster loot? What will its place be if imbuing stays just like this?

 

[MissEcho]

The point I was making was on imbalance between races on any given mod.

Make a gargoyle suit with 12 Mana regen using only 4 armor/jewelry slots (ie no books shields other 'special' arti slots etc. You can't do it but you CAN do it for a human/elf.

And without using a shield/weapon, give your human 60 hci. Can't do that either, but I can on a Gargoyle.

That is race imbalance which shouldn't be that drastic.

 

[popps]

so....................... you're complaining about 20 extra skill points?

One of the complaints or "defensive arguments" of those using +skill items, is that so far their template gets "married" to the items and has to give up other usefull mods.

Well, with imbuing it now is no longer a problem because on top of those 120 points or 20 points more than your current template, with "creative imbuing" one not only can get that extra 7th skill all maxed out, but ALSO get maxed out resistances and those other cool mods which help getting a great defense AND a great offense......

There are no longer going to be weaknesses in a template.

So where will the challenge go if these uber templates will be all rounded to the top with 7th skill maxed out, maxed out resistances, top defensive and top offensive mods and all that ?

I often hear arguments of challenge but then I see players seek always the most uber template which makes game play easier.

If game play is easy thanking to the beefed up templates, where goes the challenge ???

 

[popps]

All I know is that the ones who think it is OK are ones who have made one godly item they always wanted and don't want the skill changed as it means they may not get their godly item.

Can someone please explain to me the above ?

I have never understood that.

I mean, I hear left and right talks of people claiming how great challenging game play is and how they live for the challenges but then, on a side, I see players seek Godly templates, Godly armor, Godly weapons, uber outfitting that give them the upper hand making game play easier, NOT more challenging.

So, I do not get it.

How can one want challenge but then seek easy playing thanking to beefed up mods to the extreme ?

 

[NewThunder]

I mean, I hear left and right talks of people claiming how great challenging game play is and how they live for the challenges but then, on a side, I see players seek Godly templates, Godly armor, Godly weapons, uber outfitting that give them the upper hand making game play easier, NOT more challenging.

So, I do not get it.

How can one want challenge but then seek easy playing thanking to beefed up mods to the extreme ?

It reminds me of someone whining and crying to be able to get easy power scroll by having them added to trammel. Everyone wants things easy in UO but is not willing to take up the challange to get them without the risk.

 

[popps]

It reminds me of someone whining and crying to be able to get easy power scroll by having them added to trammel. Everyone wants things easy in UO but is not willing to take up the challange to get them without the risk.

I think we need to first agree whether or not in the game PvP needs to be challenging or not.

Because, Champ spawns as they are are no PvP challenge, they are simply the slaughtering of those few trammel players who try biting them.

And infact, it is many years now, like what ? Six ? Seven ?
It is many years now that on many shards Champ Spawns stay a Monopoly of a few Zerg Guilds.

Why so ?

Because they grew so powerfull that trying to change the status quo is often helpless and when something is helpless, players eventually give up and yes, they even migrate to other games thus causing loss of subscriptions and damage to all who play the game as less revenues mean less support and less new content, unfortunately.

This is NOT handing out things on a silver platter, this is all about putting other players in conditions to be a MATCH to those holding tight the spawns.

And in an heavily item based game, if others want to be a match and challenge others in PvP well, there is no other choice but get those mods also and up there also.

Otherwise, challenging PvP remains a joke with some uber outfitted easily winning fights and many trying for a while and eventually giving up and going to other games.

Like it or not, it DOES IS necessary for the better sake of the game, to cover the GAP between the "Haves" and the "Haves Not" in a reasonable time, IMHO.

And who can help cover that GAP ? Only the Developers can since as the game stands to entrying players the uphill task takes way too long and risk losing them to other games when they realize how helpless their attempt might be.

Infact, while entrying players struggle to catch up, at the same one time current top players continue to advance, accumulate wealth and better their equipment thus further widening the GAP rather than seeing it close.........

Imagine this......

If someone needs to catch up someone who is ahead 500 miles and uses a Horse while that someone elseto be caught up with uses a Ferrari and keeps going, how many chances are there that the one riding the Horse will catch up with the speeding Ferrari ?

Bottom line is, that it is the entrying players who should be given the faster vehicle, not the current top players.

Otherwise, the catching up can never happen and the GAP never close...........

 

[The Craftsman]

I'm excited about this. I have a t hunter tamer with music/disco who has been in a bind for a while. Can't get taming to 120 except with jewelry for actual taming, can't get disco any higher cause there is no room. Basically I'm stuck, even with swapping lockpick and carto for each other. It's tough enough getting 100% LRC and some luck on her, and her resists are terrible!

This is a boon to people with cramped templates, and certainly the skills are going to take up slots that otherwise would have gone to things like LRC, HCI, etc etc. Everyone can do it if they want to mess with it.

Sorry to target your post specifically Sarsmi, but your post encapsulates the attitude of many UO players today. "ME, me, me". "I want more".

Did it ever occur to you all that UO was always MEANT to be a game of choices. A game of you cant have everything. A game of deciding what to have on a template, or a suit.

Now all we hear is I want this added to my template, I wont those extra mods, I want those extra resists etc etc and Imbuing goes a long way to doing this.

We may as well drop the skill cap or raise it to 1000 so that we can all have whatever we want in a template and all be perfect. Whatever happened to making choices?

 

[Amber Moon]

I really don't see this as as big and issue as some folks are making out.

What happens if everyone can make suits to the caps? ... The caps can be raised to restore rock, paper, scissors.

What happens to PvP? as long as everyone has reasonably equal access to all items, it stays balanced.

What happens if the new templates are overpowering PvM? ... well it reduces the relative power of Greater Dragons (which many have asked for). it may cause a group/solo requirement imbalance.. but a mob re-adjustment will fix that and probably will be about due again anyway.

I am no all seeing sage of things to come, but the above that is my general impression from what I know so far. I'd be happy to hear dissenting opinions in any case.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I think we need to first agree whether or not in the game PvP needs to be challenging or not.

Because, Champ spawns as they are are no PvP challenge, they are simply the slaughtering of those few trammel players who try biting them.

And infact, it is many years now, like what ? Six ? Seven ?
It is many years now that on many shards Champ Spawns stay a Monopoly of a few Zerg Guilds.

Why so ?

Because they grew so powerfull that trying to change the status quo is often helpless and when something is helpless, players eventually give up and yes, they even migrate to other games thus causing loss of subscriptions and damage to all who play the game as less revenues mean less support and less new content, unfortunately.

This is NOT handing out things on a silver platter, this is all about putting other players in conditions to be a MATCH to those holding tight the spawns.

And in an heavily item based game, if others want to be a match and challenge others in PvP well, there is no other choice but get those mods also and up there also.

Otherwise, challenging PvP remains a joke with some uber outfitted easily winning fights and many trying for a while and eventually giving up and going to other games.

Like it or not, it DOES IS necessary for the better sake of the game, to cover the GAP between the "Haves" and the "Haves Not" in a reasonable time, IMHO.

And who can help cover that GAP ? Only the Developers can since as the game stands to entrying players the uphill task takes way too long and risk losing them to other games when they realize how helpless their attempt might be.

Infact, while entrying players struggle to catch up, at the same one time current top players continue to advance, accumulate wealth and better their equipment thus further widening the GAP rather than seeing it close.........

Imagine this......

If someone needs to catch up someone who is ahead 500 miles and uses a Horse while that someone elseto be caught up with uses a Ferrari and keeps going, how many chances are there that the one riding the Horse will catch up with the speeding Ferrari ?

Bottom line is, that it is the entrying players who should be given the faster vehicle, not the current top players.

Otherwise, the catching up can never happen and the GAP never close...........

You spout all this gibberish, yet you haven't checked out the champ spawns since ghost cams were taken care of, which greatly reduced the ability of any guild to abuse that system for raid purposes, and greatly increased the chance of a small group of players to complete a spawn before anyone even knows they're there.

Once again, you're talking out of the side of your mouth with incorrect information. You really should shut up and actually go do something, instead of complaining about things that are not valid.

 

[popps]

Sorry to target your post specifically Sarsmi, but your post encapsulates the attitude of many UO players today. "ME, me, me". "I want more".

Did it ever occur to you all that UO was always MEANT to be a game of choices. A game of you cant have everything. A game of deciding what to have on a template, or a suit.

That is very true, but unfortunately, it belongs to a wonderfull past that sadly seems now so far away.........

It belongs to a wonderfull past of Ultima Online when the game was prowdly more skill based, rather than heavily depending on items as today.

Back then, one had to make a choice what to play and one could not be a bit of everything like today's Sampire or a Tamer+a Bard or a Nox/Wave/Something else Mage and so on, sadly.

If it became possible, I imagine that there would be players putting all possible skills on a single template.....

The real problem is, though, that all this has become possible because questionable Design choices were made over the years to make this possible.

I do not think today Ultima Online is a better game that it once was.

Maybe more sofisticated, but better ? I am not sure.

I still dream of a miracle that would somehow bring Ultima Online back to where skills where what mattered more and where one had to make a choice what to play and that style only at one time.

But I am not sure it would be advisable for me to hold my breath over this dream.......

 

[popps]

You spout all this gibberish, yet you haven't checked out the champ spawns since ghost cams were taken care of, which greatly reduced the ability of any guild to abuse that system for raid purposes, and greatly increased the chance of a small group of players to complete a spawn before anyone even knows they're there..

It is a mere amount of time, IMHO, before the Zerg Monopolist Guilds will adjust to the changes somehow.

Unfortunately, too much interest is in Champion Spawns and too much revenues are there, especially now that the Scroll Binders will make also all minor scrolls valuable.

Just wait that they reorganize and find some way to bring everything under their control again.

The only true way of changing something and help that Horse catch up with the Ferrari, would be only adding to the Trammel spawns all of the minor scrolls, saved the 120s and +25s which would remain exclusive of Felucca, to go along with the Scroll binders change.

Anything else I have no faith it will help much, other than temporarily until the Zerg Monopolist Guilds reorganize somehow.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Just wait that they reorganize and find some way to bring everything under their control again.

Without the ability to use ghost cams, the only option they have is to have someone manually go through each and every champ spawn every 10-15 minutes. Since 105's can drop during the first 2 levels of the spawn, you could work up spawn yourself for the first 2 levels, then move on to the next one, and so on. You'd spend maybe 5 minutes at each spawn. Of course that's probably too hard for you since you'd actually have to go out and do something to get what you want, instead of it being handed to you on the now worn out silver platter.

 

[popps]

Without the ability to use ghost cams, the only option they have is to have someone manually go through each and every champ spawn every 10-15 minutes. Since 105's can drop during the first 2 levels of the spawn, you could work up spawn yourself for the first 2 levels, then move on to the next one, and so on. You'd spend maybe 5 minutes at each spawn. Of course that's probably too hard for you since you'd actually have to go out and do something to get what you want, instead of it being handed to you on the now worn out silver platter.

Trying to Bind a 120 using 105 is not practical.

Only going with 110s and 115s it has at least a possibility. Even at 192 the amount of 105s is simply too high to make it really feasible.

Therefore, one only needs to spawn the Boss and get the final scrolls but that involves the Zerg Monopolist Guilds so, it is not feasible either.........

Your suggestion "could" have merit if also 110s spawned with 105s.
Then, perhaps, things could at least in theory be more possible.

Though, also with 110s quite a lot of same scrolls would be needed to put together than 120.

 

[Wilde1]

You spout all this gibberish, yet you haven't checked out the champ spawns since ghost cams were taken care of, which greatly reduced the ability of any guild to abuse that system for raid purposes, and greatly increased the chance of a small group of players to complete a spawn before anyone even knows they're there..

It is a mere amount of time, IMHO, before the Zerg Monopolist Guilds will adjust to the changes somehow.

Unfortunately, too much interest is in Champion Spawns and too much revenues are there, especially now that the Scroll Binders will make also all minor scrolls valuable.

Just wait that they reorganize and find some way to bring everything under their control again.

The only true way of changing something and help that Horse catch up with the Ferrari, would be only adding to the Trammel spawns all of the minor scrolls, saved the 120s and +25s which would remain exclusive of Felucca, to go along with the Scroll binders change.

Anything else I have no faith it will help much, other than temporarily until the Zerg Monopolist Guilds reorganize somehow.

Our small blue trammy guild regularly completes champ spawns. Heck, we regularly completed champ spawns before the ghost cam changes. My main way of generating gold in the game is working the first 2 levels of a couple different fel champ spawn for pinks and selling them on a luna vendor (rented btw). I rarely lose my SoTs to reds. It is not particularly difficult for nonreds to farm power scrolls if you put a little thought into strategy.

Popps, when you make the comments like the one quoted above, it tells me you spend WAY more time posting trolls than actually playing the game. You've carried on about binders without even knowing what they were, and have spoiled nearly every potentially productive SA thread with opinion based on bad information. Please take a week or two to play the open beta, then if you want to post your opinion, it will be better informed and perhaps better received.

 

[Alezi]

GrayGhost - since you have done some rather extensive testing with the skill, I have a few questions.

* Where do you think imbuing, in its current state, leaves other crafting skills?
* How does the randomness and rarity of a runic stack up against imbuing?
* Can you see yourself using other crafting skills still if imbuing goes live as it is (other than for making *blank* exceptionals to imbue on)?
* What about monster loot? What will its place be if imbuing stays just like this?

I think I should be able to answer these pret-ty damn well

1. Runics will be in big demand. Even though runic items are completely random the majority will still prefer runics when crafting a suit instead of just obtaining a suit made purely by imbuing.

2. It will be very cost in-efficient to imbue a complete suit with mods you want. The majority of players will still prefer mostly runic armor parts and maybe 1-2 imbued armor parts. Players with a spesific suit in their mind will most likely stick to imbuing (but it's a minority that will).

3. Yes. As I play factions I have access to faction artifacts. For me faction arties = base for the suit which then is complemented by runic armor parts & rest of the equipment. Remember that you can't imbue DCI to a tunic, for an example.

I will make myself imbued gloves (complements faction arties+runic armor) and I'm thinking of replacing my ring with an imbued one.

4. There's been so many times when I've found an amazing piece of loot from a monster. But they almost always lack something. Say, you find some leather part with MR2 HPI4 LRC 18% (happened to me) but the total resists in the piece is less than 15. Enhancing it to get better resists would surely break it and it would still be missing 2 mods. Just "fortify" the item with Imbuing and vôila, you've got yourself pretty damn nice piece for a rather low cost.

PvM will still remain the source of artifacts (doom, peerless etc.). PvM loot will be the base for imbuing. It would be stupid (and expensive) to just craft blank items and add desired mods to them.

EDIT: Please ban popps already. Messing up all the threads here.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Trying to Bind a 120 using 105 is not practical.

Only going with 110s and 115s it has at least a possibility. Even at 192 the amount of 105s is simply too high to make it really feasible.

Translation: I'd actually have to work toward a goal, so this is too hard.

Therefore, one only needs to spawn the Boss and get the final scrolls but that involves the Zerg Monopolist Guilds so, it is not feasible either.........

With ghost cams gone, zerg guilds no longer control spawns. Anyone can run them now, so this point is no longer a valid one. Hell, a small group of players could complete a Barracoon spawn in 10 minutes or less, which most likely would be done before anyone even knew they were there. But again, this would require effort at working towards a goal, which seems to be beyond your capabilities.

Your suggestion "could" have merit if also 110s spawned with 105s.
Then, perhaps, things could at least in theory be more possible.

It has merit for anyone that actually plays the game instead of whining on UHall.

Though, also with 110s quite a lot of same scrolls would be needed to put together than 120.

Yeah, so? Oh, wait, that's right. That requires effort which seems to be beyond your capabilities.

You really should take a hint from the fact that everyone has disagreed with you, and even have some that have done exactly what you say isn't possible.

 

[Alezi]

Lets assume the worst case scenario.

Lets create impossible jewels.
Necklace
Earrings
Ring
Bracelet

Each with 5x +15 skill points. That's 300 +skill points total.

You have chest, leggings, arms & kilt left. Where are you gonna get HCI, DCI, DI? LMC LRC EP? FC FCR? And most importantly - the resists?

To get all 60's resists you'd need 240 total resists from the 4 armor parts you have left. That's 60 total resists per armor piece you'd need. You'd still be missing a crapload of supplementary mods. I think there is absolutely no major gamebreaking issues with imbuing. We'll see once SA hits the digital shelves if some major unbalance occurs.

 

[Ailish]

I think I should be able to answer these pret-ty damn well

2. It will be very cost in-efficient to imbue a complete suit with mods you want. The majority of players will still prefer mostly runic armor parts and maybe 1-2 imbued armor parts. Players with a spesific suit in their mind will most likely stick to imbuing (but it's a minority that will).
...

EDIT: Please ban popps already. Messing up all the threads here.

Alizi, since you were the only one nice enough to address the questions

You refer to the cost, but what happens in a year when everyone has all the relic fragments they will ever need? And when they have figured out the most efficient way to imbue to minimize costs (such as using relic frag. when they have over 50% chance, then using essence, and using a not-100% property to reduce the cost even more)?

UO players are crafty ... they WILL figure out the way to do it. There are ways to keep the skill just as powerful as it is (end product up to 500% intensity), but to "require" the use of a crafted or looted item as a base piece.

 

[Connor_Graham]

You refer to the cost, but what happens in a year when everyone has all the relic fragments they will ever need?

They'll be using them up to replace the things they made, as they'll have worn out several times by then, depending on profession.

 

[Ailish]

As you noted, depending on profession. Imbuing would be MOST costly for a dexer. But what about a bard? A PvM mage? A tamer? A stealth archer? If they powder the pieces first, and repair them before the "100% you loose a durability" point, imbued pieces could last a very long time ....

 

[guum]

Sorry to target your post specifically Sarsmi, but your post encapsulates the attitude of many UO players today. "ME, me, me". "I want more".

Did it ever occur to you all that UO was always MEANT to be a game of choices. A game of you cant have everything. A game of deciding what to have on a template, or a suit.

Can you explain the difference between the attitude you object to in Paragraph 1 and your advocacy of your own vision of how the game "should" be in Paragraph 2? You, like others, are also advocating a "me me me" position -- it's just that your "me" is different from Sarsmi's. You want the game to be a certain way, and so does Sarsmi. And you are entitled to your preference and to state that preference, but your preference doesn't give you any sort of moral high ground, as you make it out to be. It's just a difference in opinion on what's best for the game.

 

[guum]

I really don't see this as as big and issue as some folks are making out.

What happens if everyone can make suits to the caps? ... The caps can be raised to restore rock, paper, scissors.

What happens to PvP? as long as everyone has reasonably equal access to all items, it stays balanced.

What happens if the new templates are overpowering PvM? ... well it reduces the relative power of Greater Dragons (which many have asked for). it may cause a group/solo requirement imbalance.. but a mob re-adjustment will fix that and probably will be about due again anyway.

I am no all seeing sage of things to come, but the above that is my general impression from what I know so far. I'd be happy to hear dissenting opinions in any case.

I think this is a sensible assessment.

 

[Ailish]

Normally I would agree with you Guum, about Craftsman's opinion vs. Sarsmi's .... except Draconi has specifically stated that they want people to have to make hard choices and have cramped templates ....

 

[Connor_Graham]

As you noted, depending on profession. Imbuing would be MOST costly for a dexer. But what about a bard? A PvM mage? A tamer? A stealth archer? If they powder the pieces first, and repair them before the "100% you loose a durability" point, imbued pieces could last a very long time ....

That's true, but even with the less "in your face" type templates the pieces will wear out and need to be replaced. Then you also have the people that play dexxers that will still want to use the imbued items, but will have to buy what they need in order to continue to replace them. Now you've got a situation where you can play merchant and sell off your excess.

 

[guum]

Normally I would agree with you Guum, about Craftsman's opinion vs. Sarsmi's .... except Draconi has specifically stated that they want people to have to make hard choices and have cramped templates ....

Well I certainly can't sway the devs, and I'm fine with choices being made. It's more the attitude involved than the content of the argument.

That being said, I think there are still going to be choices involved here. Those who try to stack 300 extra skill points onto their templates via jewelry are going to quickly see that they are getting trounced by people who have full resists, max LMC, FC/FCR, HCI, DCI, etc. In terms of gargoyles, I think people will quickly get an idea of where the sweet spot lies -- probably about 4-8 +skill mods, depending on template, and the rest of the mods being used for traditional suit-building options. Given that most cramped templates already allocate 2-3 mod slots for skills, the net effect will probably be an effective raise in skillcap of somewhere between 30-90 points. It's suit inflation, no question, but that has generally been the trend throughout the game's history (more powerful gear does sell expansions, after all). And it's not quite as absurd a degree of inflation as people are making it out to be...consider that you have to have a gargoyle, really, to get the most out of +skill items. Gargoyles can't use mounts, have to fly. From my testing, in order for flying to be tolerable on a non-dexxer, you have to have 40 points of focus (and that's not a fly-forever solution, that's just a, I can make it across luna without keeling over solution): that's 2 extra mod slots there.

Anyway, it's a complicated equation, especially with the differences in equippable gear between humans and gargoyles. I don't know what effect it will have overall, and I expect no one will clearly see that until the expansion's been released for a few months.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Alizi, since you were the only one nice enough to address the questions

You refer to the cost, but what happens in a year when everyone has all the relic fragments they will ever need? And when they have figured out the most efficient way to imbue to minimize costs (such as using relic frag. when they have over 50% chance, then using essence, and using a not-100% property to reduce the cost even more)?

UO players are crafty ... they WILL figure out the way to do it. There are ways to keep the skill just as powerful as it is (end product up to 500% intensity), but to "require" the use of a crafted or looted item as a base piece.

Sorry for the late check in oO was buisy with some texturing this weekend .

As far as what happens in a year, you have to keep in mind Inbued items will eventually break if you use them. No powders of fortification to bring the max durrability back up. They eventually become useless. And the cost is going to be pretty staggering. Here's an example of a blood sword I made with 4 mods. This is with the +3 Bonus SoulForge.

Hit Lighting 1st mod
5 Relic Frags
10 Amethyst
10 White Pearl

HCI 2nd Mod

5 Relic Frags
10 Amber
10 Ecru Citrines

HLD 3rd Mod
40 Enchanted Essence
80 Tourmaline
10 Parasitic plants
took 8 tries

Bumped the 40dmg inc up to 50 for 4th mod
took 7 tries costed

35 Relic Fragments
70 Citrine
10 Perfect Emeralds.


Now lets tally for 4 mods!

40 Enchanted Essence
50 Relic Fragments (Means breaking down artifacts)
10 White Pearl (Check the price for these on your server)
10 Ecru Citrines (Check the price for these on your server)
10 parasitic plants (Check the price for these on your server)
10 Perfect emeralds (Check the price for these on your server)
10 Amethyst (Kill ellies)
10 Amber (Kill ellies)
80 Tourmaline (Kill Ellies)
70 Citrine (Kill ellies)

Now not all arties seem to give you relic fragments.
I've had some of the minors I tried unraveling give me Enchanted essence so I broke down majors for the relic fragments.
The Essence and the Fragments alone are going to be pricey as all get out. The Gem price is going to rise drastically so take
the current price for the mats on your server and multiply it by 2 to get a bare minimum estimate on how much it will cost you
to Imbue this weapon. Oddly enough I am failry certain when all is said and done, the price for these mats is going to be close
to the price of a Val runic hammer lol.

Now this item is garunteed to eventually break.

It's going to be rare if you ever see anyone with a 5 mod imbued Item, going to be fairly rare to see someone with a 4 mod imbued item, still going to be somewhat rare to see 3 mod items. I predict 2 mods and 3 mods being the norm. This is just discussing individual items. Making whole custom made suits are going to cost an astranomical price. And this suit isn't even built to last. You blow your virtual wad on one of these bad boys to see it break in a month lol. I can see the tears comming and it's going to be a flood.


Imbuing is very very very nice on paper and man so many things are going to be possible. The problem is when the reality of it jump kicks you in the face, If you would like I will make a custom suit, name the mods on each piece you want and I till get what I can on there and come back and post exactly what it took, then you can even go look and see just how much it would cost on your server with the current prices.

I will break down arties for the Fragments and essences as much as I can and use whats in the resource box when I run out of those if you would like and I will post what all I had to break down to get the fragments and essences as well.

 

[Maplestone]

Remember that you can also unravel normal, ordinary loot. Although the odds of finding a relic fragment that way are low, essence is fairly common.

 

[Ailish]

Remember that you can also unravel normal, ordinary loot. Although the odds of finding a relic fragment that way are low, essence is fairly common.

Not only that, you can use your gobs of Magical Residue and Enchanted Essence to make items with high enough intensity to get Relic Fragments.

Lesser Slayer - 100% intensity - requires Magical Residue
Reflect Physical - Magical Residue (etc)

You could also go with 5 x 89% intensity (no "rare" gems required)

Unravel your no-good Ecru Citrine rings (not saying you have them, but people do). The 50 EP counts as 200% right off the bat.

Yes, you cannot re-powder your items, but unless you are a dexer, a 255 dura item should last quite a while when properly cared for


Anyway, I just see it a little differently that some people, I guess.

 

[ClayPigeon]

Not only that, you can use your gobs of Magical Residue and Enchanted Essence to make items with high enough intensity to get Relic Fragments.

Lesser Slayer - 100% intensity - requires Magical Residue
Reflect Physical - Magical Residue (etc)

You could also go with 5 x 89% intensity (no "rare" gems required)

Unravel your no-good Ecru Citrine rings (not saying you have them, but people do). The 50 EP counts as 200% right off the bat.

Yes, you cannot re-powder your items, but unless you are a dexer, a 255 dura item should last quite a while when properly cared for


Anyway, I just see it a little differently that some people, I guess.

Right I would tend to agree with this. I always sit around thinking about how I am going to take good care of my items and then I don't.... And I have used POF to boost several items up to 255, but honestly, I think 1 time in all my years of UO did I actually use POF to prevent an item from utter destruction (and that was a stupid 8 durability bandana...). On my Warrior I could see this being a bit of a second thought, but if you can just make another one.... then thats what people will do. You act as if these investments will last weeks, when I believe they will last YEARS....

I can't speak to a PvP environment, maybe thats crazy hard on durability. But the numbers tell me that if you say.... PvP for 2 hours, then repair, and 50% of the time you lose an overall durability point, then your item will last you approximately 255 solid hours of PvP fun... Thats like 10.6 days... Non-stop play-time... no poooing. no peeing, no eating or sleeping... Thats 63 days if you PvP for 4 hours every single day! Its nearly a year if you play for only 1 hour a day, every single day... You can see where this is going...

You can tell me right now that 50 Relic Fragments is a prohibitive number of ingredients, and will be terribly expensive, but as with many things in UO, this question of rarity eventually becomes a non-issue. So that is the fear... Frankly if you only see one or two, maybe three mods on an armor piece, then you wouldn't object to a hard cap on imbuing? Since people won't do it anyways because its "too expensive" then lets just ensure that imbuing can't be overpowered by slapping a cap on it.

I can't decide if I am woried bout the Gargoyle templates or not...


If you can hit 5x70 resists on the 4 pieces, then you are wide open to load up on those skills. I scoff at +8 MR vs +12, since the current system of diminishing returns on Mana Regen make the differences there pretty minor. Its more scary that since MR from Medi and Focus are NOT subject to diminishing returns, you could theoretically make up some of this missing MR on the suit with +30 Meditation and +30 Focus... Theres your nearly 4 MR right there.

And the argument that you can already get 124 skill points through arties sort of made me choke, because you did all of that on pieces that are "gargoyle friendly" through alteration! So you would STILL be able to throw down with another 10 skills @ +15 each! so you could Artie up for over 270 skill points on a Gargoyle! Where does it end?!

Gargoyles get two more jewerly spots, and two less armor spots, but they don't take any real hit on the resistances of the overall suit. I suspect that it won't be long before people discover the benefits and run with them.. And in a year we will be having a conversation about how Gargoyles PWN all with their extra two jewelry slots

These balancing questions need to be considered in terms of years not "it sux right now because gargoyles will be ultra-weak at launch" . I will grant you that because the number of choices on necklaces = 1, and earrings are a big zilch... But with imbuing and maybe adding gargoyle earring arties, and loot drops... I think within a year it will be a different story altogether... Also keep in mind that there was a time in UO before ANYONE had arties, but they dropped and now everyone wants to use them as the "baseline" from which all balance arguments spring... and thats just backwards if you ask me. Artifacts should be .... well ... artifactish .... as in rare...

I think its an effort to make Gargoyles different and to offer different choices, and since everyone understands this only in the context of the currently accepted norms for "best template", they seem like they will stink, and everyone wants their Gargoyles to be these human/elves with wings. You gotta admit, with all the arguments and questions flying over this design, that it is nothing if not DIFFERENT! I like that, it helps keep UO fresh. Elves with wings sounds cool, but so does the challenge of modding out a Gargoyle with a whole different process!

Frankly nothing will stop me from having one on each of my accounts, unless they get pwned by mongbats!