Things in SA that you feel must be addressed before launch

[UONanook]

....

2) I own a tower, and most of the time when I log into the game using the KR client I'll have items from the upper floors mixed in with items on the current floor, including the staircases. Nothing like being trapped in your own house because the KR client squishes two levels of a house into one.

......

+1 I have this problem as well... my technique for this has been to get in the habit of logging out on the first floor near the front door so I can just move to the door and get out without having to stumble my way through the house (I suppose I could use the leave house option). This is murder if you are inside one of the rooms and can't see the door in order to open it (I just became familiar with the "open door" action in KR but that requires you to stand right in front of the door you can't see and be facing the door). It has been my experience that this is most likely to occur when I log out on the top floor of the tower.

 

[UONanook]

When you use Control Shift, you have to press those keys down in that order. You won't see anything happen if you press them down as Shift and then Control.

Hmmm, that explains it now that I took your advice and fooled around... it is all about the order. Thanks for the insight, I usually just kept at it until it worked.

 

[UONanook]

...

Pet peeeves;

Hate how the circle of transparency in the KR client will show the grassy ground no matter what level you are above it. Makes it impossible to place anything using circle of transparency in KR unless you really want to lose something under the foundation of your house from the roof.... To add to this, hate that there's no macro option to switch Circle of Transparency on or off via a macro.

...

+1 Fix Circle of Transparency...I deal with it not working worth a darn in KR by temporarily editing walls in custom housing to allow me to place things along southern and eastern walls... in my tower, I just set up my floor layout with a walking path along the southern and eastern walls.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

couldn't be the fact that it's over a decade old

That is the fact indeed. It's over a decade old and shows its age both as a box and as a program. Even if there were boxes on the shelves, they'd be languishing due to the comaprison to newer games. KR COULD have helped this situation had work continued on it. SA may still help this situation depending on how it ends up.

Point being that 2d isn't going to sell any boxes on its own nor bring in any new blood (especially at retail prices). I'd love to see new boxes on the shelf (especially with a cloth map), but they're going to need something a bit more eye catching than graphics from a dozen years ago to do it.

2d was a good client in its day. Now it is HORRIBLY limited (otherwise, why is UOA such a popular program... hmm?) in form AND functionality.

KR at least gives the ability to use the Legacy style graphics for those who prefer them, and I hope (but do not know if it will) that SA retains the choice between graphical styles so that people can have the UO experience they prefer... so that people with lesser systems can run the program and those with higher end eqiupment can get something out of pushing the client features and their hardware harder.

 

[Arch Magus]

...

couldn't be the fact that it's over a decade old

That is the fact indeed. It's over a decade old and shows its age both as a box and as a program. Even if there were boxes on the shelves, they'd be languishing due to the comaprison to newer games. KR COULD have helped this situation had work continued on it. SA may still help this situation depending on how it ends up.

Point being that 2d isn't going to sell any boxes on its own nor bring in any new blood (especially at retail prices). I'd love to see new boxes on the shelf (especially with a cloth map), but they're going to need something a bit more eye catching than graphics from a dozen years ago to do it.

2d was a good client in its day. Now it is HORRIBLY limited (otherwise, why is UOA such a popular program... hmm?) in form AND functionality.

KR at least gives the ability to use the Legacy style graphics for those who prefer them, and I hope (but do not know if it will) that SA retains the choice between graphical styles so that people can have the UO experience they prefer... so that people with lesser systems can run the program and those with higher end eqiupment can get something out of pushing the client features and their hardware harder.

You make some good points.

 

[Maggie]

Another thing. I love that you can right click on an item in the corpse to loot it. That is great but if you right click and you cannot reach it then it disappears but it doesnt go in your pack and it doesnt give you a message that you could not reach it. I can reopen corpse and it reappers but I lost a lot of stuff before I figured out why my stacks of stuff werent increasing. I like fishing in kr but lost a lot of scales and stuff due to this.

I meantioned not being able to target stuff earlier and someone said buy a mouse. Well I have one. I dont use it cause my favorite gaming spot is on the couch. So soft and comfy.

I have a hard time looting corpses too. I dont know if having a mouse helps that. They tend to pile up on top of each other and you just cannot see. I ve missed some looting action. Or like your corpse may be the only one there but there is a bunch of monsters/players on top of it so you cannot visually see it to click on it. I will make sure that I hit CTRL before I hit SHIFT every time and I ll see if that helps.

 

[D'Amavir]

Even if there were boxes on the shelves, they'd be languishing due to the comaprison to newer games. KR COULD have helped this situation had work continued on it. SA may still help this situation depending on how it ends up.

The problem with that theory is that games, like movies and the like, usually succeed or fail based on initial public reaction. There are exceptions of course but in general this is true.

When KR first came out it sucked [to many]. As such, usage of it was less than hoped. Sure, since then it may have improved. But its chance for success was dashed.

If SA comes out of the gates looking AND functioning well, it may do what 3rd Dawn and KR failed to do. Which was show non UO players that the old dog was worth finally giving a shot.

 

[Arch Magus]

The problem with that theory is that games, like movies and the like, usually succeed or fail based on initial public reaction. There are exceptions of course but in general this is true.

When KR first came out it sucked [to many]. As such, usage of it was less than hoped. Sure, since then it may have improved. But its chance for success was dashed.

If SA comes out of the gates looking AND functioning well, it may do what 3rd Dawn and KR failed to do. Which was show non UO players that the old dog was worth finally giving a shot.

A saying comes to mind, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks".

 

[Nok]

Toilet add ons! not a single head in all the lands but they offer us all this ale and liquor.

I've been holding it for 11 years... I really have to go.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

KR "sucked to many" because it came out at LEAST 6 months too early. Whatever reason they decided to release was a complete mistake... not of the client, but of the people behind the scenes. Even now, the client is basically "unfinished" as I can find several situations where I get the "This gump has not been completed, please send a bug reports etc etc etc" message (two being the controller tower puzzles in Ilsh and the "picture cards" from the collector quest). Again, not a failing of the client, but of the work that stopped on the client in favor of "starting over" with the SA client.

It got a lot of (deserved) negative reaction when it first came out, but it did improve and even just recently there have been people making the switch and learning how to use the client and finding the value in it.

The problem with the "first impression" are the people in this thread and the other threads about the client that are already calling SA a failure when they haven't even seen it much less actually used it. The more vocal that these Luddites are about every attempt to modernize UO, the more people see negative advertisement for UO, the less likely UO will gain any new accounts using ANY client. The close-mindedness of these people will more likely be the death of this game than a new client regardless of how that new client looks. Mind you, I'm not talking about the people who like 2d, I'm talking about the people who are rabidly anti-anything-but-2d. The people who do not EVER want to play anything other than 2d, but are not happy to leave it at that, they DON'T WANT ANYONE ELSE playing something other than 2d. Those are the people that will cause UO to fail in the end... especially if they are listened to.

 

[Arch Magus]

The close-mindedness of these people will more likely be the death of this game than a new client regardless of how that new client looks. Mind you, I'm not talking about the people who like 2d, I'm talking about the people who are rabidly anti-anything-but-2d. The people who do not EVER want to play anything other than 2d, but are not happy to leave it at that, they DON'T WANT ANYONE ELSE playing something other than 2d. Those are the people that will cause UO to fail in the end... especially if they are listened to.

The same people you say will "cause the death of UO" are the very same people I think have been loyal customers for maybe a decade or more. I believe they have kept this game afloat since day 1.

BTW....why can't they just make a nice-ass 2d client?
It could be new and fresh...and not look like garbage.

 

[D'Amavir]

...

KR "sucked to many" because it came out at LEAST 6 months too early. Whatever reason they decided to release was a complete mistake... not of the client, but of the people behind the scenes. Even now, the client is basically "unfinished" as I can find several situations where I get the "This gump has not been completed, please send a bug reports etc etc etc" message (two being the controller tower puzzles in Ilsh and the "picture cards" from the collector quest). Again, not a failing of the client, but of the work that stopped on the client in favor of "starting over" with the SA client.

It got a lot of (deserved) negative reaction when it first came out, but it did improve and even just recently there have been people making the switch and learning how to use the client and finding the value in it.

The problem with the "first impression" are the people in this thread and the other threads about the client that are already calling SA a failure when they haven't even seen it much less actually used it. The more vocal that these Luddites are about every attempt to modernize UO, the more people see negative advertisement for UO, the less likely UO will gain any new accounts using ANY client. The close-mindedness of these people will more likely be the death of this game than a new client regardless of how that new client looks. Mind you, I'm not talking about the people who like 2d, I'm talking about the people who are rabidly anti-anything-but-2d. The people who do not EVER want to play anything other than 2d, but are not happy to leave it at that, they DON'T WANT ANYONE ELSE playing something other than 2d. Those are the people that will cause UO to fail in the end... especially if they are listened to.

I agree with you 100% about KR being released way too early. If they spent 6 more months on it before release, we might be in a completely different UO world right now. I can only hope they learned from that mistake.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

The same people you say will "cause the death of UO" are the very same people I think have been loyal customers for maybe a decade or more. I believe they have kept this game afloat since day 1.

They aren't the only ones who fit that description, however they are the ones more willing to throw away potential expansion to the game's population (opposed to those of us who have embraced new clients and help people to learn how to use them, to solve technical issues and to give UI tutoring). The problem isn't preference, but the outright hostility to any form of advancement.

BTW....why can't they just make a nice-ass 2d client?
It could be new and fresh

They did and they're doing it again (KR and SA still use the same perspective as the 2d client), but as stated, people will STILL be rabidly against such a thing even if the graphics, effects and UI are above and beyond UO + favored external programs.

If they spent 6 more months on it before release, we might be in a completely different UO world right now. I can only hope they learned from that mistake.

You and me both, however again, there'd still be the certain group of people to deal with, and there will be when SA is formally released regardless of what level of quality it is when it is released.

 

[Arch Magus]

I don't know what to tell you dude.

I tried 3rd Dawn. It sucked and was butt ugly.
I tried KR. ditto.

I'd play the crap if it wasn't UGLY AS HELL.

And you blame me and others for it's failure?
for shame...

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Unless you're one of the people posting thing along the lines of "people who play KR should be banned", then you're not the type I am talking about.

Preference isn't the problem... that's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[D'Amavir]

You and me both, however again, there'd still be the certain group of people to deal with, and there will be when SA is formally released regardless of what level of quality it is when it is released.

Sure. But, honestly, for every 'luddite' type there is also an 'I hate 2D' type. Finding a balance between those camps takes work.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Absolutely.

I will very quickly state that I think that UO would do better in the long run by removing ALL old clients and focusing on the newest technologically based on (right now KR, then when SA is out, SA).

BUT...

I in no way think that people should be disallowed to play 2d while it is still an active client. I HOPE that SA is done well enough that they can bring enough people over to advance the game to the point where we only have one client, but I don't think they should simply "turn off" 2d right now or ban people who use it. As you probably have seen I'll also disagree with the "2d players are cheaters" argument as well because I do not buy into the stereotype argument presented (either in the client wars or in RMT debates) that because people who exploit use the 2d client (or sell for real money) that all 2d client users are exploiters (or all people who sell for real money are exploiters).

I hope that makes some sense.

 

[Arch Magus]

...

Absolutely.

I will very quickly state that I think that UO would do better in the long run by removing ALL old clients and focusing on the newest technologically based on (right now KR, then when SA is out, SA).

BUT...

I in no way think that people should be disallowed to play 2d while it is still an active client. I HOPE that SA is done well enough that they can bring enough people over to advance the game to the point where we only have one client, but I don't think they should simply "turn off" 2d right now or ban people who use it. As you probably have seen I'll also disagree with the "2d players are cheaters" argument as well because I do not buy into the stereotype argument presented (either in the client wars or in RMT debates) that because people who exploit use the 2d client (or sell for real money) that all 2d client users are exploiters (or all people who sell for real money are exploiters).

I hope that makes some sense.

Makes perfect sense.

I would gladly play a new client if it was done correctly.

 

[D'Amavir]

Makes perfect sense.

I would gladly play a new client if it was done correctly.

Same here.

 

[Aran]

UO is 2D to me.

If 2D goes away, I, and many like me, will no longer play UO.

Give the me-toos their shiny little client update and whatever bells and whistles they beg and cry for after seeing GameXYZ do it (Never would they dare to come up with an original idea, mind you), but don't take away from me to do it.

 

[Arch Magus]

UO is 2D to me.

If 2D goes away, I, and many like me, will no longer play UO.

Give the me-toos their shiny little client update and whatever bells and whistles they beg and cry for after seeing GameXYZ do it (Never would they dare to come up with an original idea, mind you), but don't take away from me to do it.

right, as always.

 

[Kaleb]

UO is 2D to me.

If 2D goes away, I, and many like me, will no longer play UO.

Give the me-toos their shiny little client update and whatever bells and whistles they beg and cry for after seeing GameXYZ do it (Never would they dare to come up with an original idea, mind you), but don't take away from me to do it.

QFFT!!

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I would gladly play a new client if it was done correctly.

As would I, the problem is that "done correctly" is a VERY subjective phrase and the reason given as to why we haven't seen a "classic shard". Everyone's idea of "done correctly" is different.

Case in point this thread. I want the client to move forward technologically while others in this thread want it to remain back at 1997 levels.

 

[D'Amavir]

...

I would gladly play a new client if it was done correctly.

As would I, the problem is that "done correctly" is a VERY subjective phrase and the reason given as to why we haven't seen a "classic shard". Everyone's idea of "done correctly" is different.

Case in point this thread. I want the client to move forward technologically while others in this thread want it to remain back at 1997 levels.

I think you might be confusing 'wanting the client to stay '2D' and 'wanting it to remain at 1997 levels'. Its not an either or thing for most of us. I want the client to move forward technologically. As do you. However, I want it to move forward technologically as a 2D style game. While you want it to move forward technologically as a '3D' style game. As you said, things are subjective.

And yes, there might be pockets of extremists that want 2D to stay exactly how it was in 97. Just like there are pockets of extremists that want 2D shut down completely. But for the most part I am seeing people that want an improved 2D client and others that want a good 'KRish' client. Imagine where we would be in UO today if, on the day that 3rd Dawn came out, the developers completely got rid of the legacy client. In my mind, it would have been devastating to UO. And something that I am not sure it would have recovered from.

I have used this example before and I think it is worth repeating. First off, I know the games are completely different but I hope you can get the idea I am going for. See below please.

This is a picture of Street Fighter II from Capcom. A 2D sidescrolling fighting game.

http://saintsuperman.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/street_fighter_ii_snes_hadoken.jpg

In its time, this game was the tops in regards to graphics and gameplay. For several years, Capcom has released several different editions of the game. Some stuck with the 2D style and some went 3D.

This is a pic from the '3D' version called Street Fighter EX.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6027/strider21in.jpg

It remained mostly the same in regards of gameplay as the 'original'. However, it didn't really find enough of a market to force the developers to take that direction from there on out.

And, finally, here is a pic of the most recent Street Fighter. Street Fighter IV.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/851/851091/street-fighter-iv-20080211101738338_640w.jpg

This game, gameplay wise, its almost exactly like the 'original' game. With many many improvements. But, overall, if you played the II you knew how to work IV. And, it looks amazing. Its still a side scrolling game. And it is technologically advanced in terms of graphics and gameplay.

To me, this is the direction EA should go. Sure, 3D is all the rage these days. But 'new' doesn't always mean better, as many here have said. The legacy client, with all the work that developers put into 3rd Dawn/KR/SA/NNUO3DC (Next New UO 3D Client) would have been amazing.

That's not to say KR doesn't have its plusses. Of course it does. And so did 3rd Dawn. And so will, I assume, SA. But, in the end, the first two failed because they didn't accomplish their goals. Which were to entice players to use them over 2D AND to get new players interested enough to come in and stick around for a longer haul.

I am far from a 'luddite'. I have 3TB's worth of dvds and blurays on my home theater pc. I have 400GB worth of music on my music pc and 3 ipods with 70-200gb worth of music on each. I love new tech. Love it. Street Fighter IV was FULL of new tech. AND, it also appealed to old schooler types. That is what EA needs to focus on. Not leaving 2D as it was in 97. Not releasing a flawed '3D' client that most don't enjoy and then shutting off 2D completely to force them into it.

 

[The Craftsman]

...

History has shown that 2D will triumph over inferior pseudo-replacementsKR

2d's done a bang up job of selling... boxes are FLYING off the shelves and new accounts are being added daily...

...

...

oh... wait...

2d was never meant to sell boxes, it is simply the client of choice for the majority.

KR was meant to sell boxes. It failed.

KR was meant to bring in new players. It failed.

KR was meant to bring back old players. It failed.

KR was meant to replace 2d, when usage of KR reached 95%. It failed.

2d is still used by the majority of players and KR is resigned as a replacemnent for 3d. i.e. the 'alternative client'

In fact .. KR is so bad, and has been such a failure, that they are replacing it already. 2d is still around.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I think you might be confusing 'wanting the client to stay '2D' and 'wanting it to remain at 1997 levels'. Its not an either or thing for most of us. I want the client to move forward technologically. As do you. However, I want it to move forward technologically as a 2D style game. While you want it to move forward technologically as a '3D' style game. As you said, things are subjective.

Here we kind of agree and disagree.

First of all, my point isn't directed at saying that "D'Amavir wants the client to stay in 1997", but to show the two extremes of the argument and why "done correctly" is so subjective.

Secondly, the ONLY differences between the old 3d client, KR client, and the Legacy(2d) client was how the models were rendered and the particle effects involved.

Legacy: High polygon 3d models "screencapped" and rendered as frame by frame sprites for "stop-motion" style animation. Pixel-based "particles". Large hard drive footprint due to having to have each frame rendered.

3d: Medium to low polygon count models rendered and animated in realtime, "Particle engine" effects. Small hard drive footprint due to animation process in real time.

KR: High polygon 3d models (higher than 2d) screen captured and displayed as bitmaps on a single polygon rendered in realtime. Higher framerate + polygonal rendering for the bitmaps = smoother version of stop motion animation. Large hard drive footprint due to the return of pre-rendered bitmaps.

Beyond that, everything remains relatively the same in regards to 2d vs 3d. The perspective is still "3d isometric" regardless of client, so calling Legacy "2d" is really a misnomer, but makes for effective "shorthand".

The thing that drives me up the wall is when I read people saying "Well if they'd update 2d with better graphics and interface etc etc etc" at which point I just want to take these people by the collar and shake them madly while yelling "WHAT DO YOU THINK KR IS?!?!?!!". KR is every bit "2d" as the Legacy client. It just has higher resolution artwork and a new Interface.

 

[Kaleb]

And yes, there might be pockets of extremists that want 2D to stay exactly how it was in 97. Just like there are pockets of extremists that want 2D shut down completely. But for the most part I am seeing people that want an improved 2D client and others that want a good 'KRish' client. Imagine where we would be in UO today if, on the day that 3rd Dawn came out, the developers completely got rid of the legacy client. In my mind, it would have been devastating to UO. And something that I am not sure it would have recovered from.

I would be down for the KR graphics If I were able to keep the legacy UI. What they should do is allow you to turn on and off different elements to suit the player. like

SA graphics + Legacy UI
SA UI + Legacy graphics
SA graphics + SA UI
Legacy graphics + Legacy UI

Make everything one client and let the people choose what they want.

 

[Aran]

No. Do NOT make it all one client, because it will NEVER WORK CORRECTLY.

 

[D'Amavir]

Secondly, the ONLY differences between the old 3d client, KR client, and the Legacy(2d) client was how the models were rendered and the particle effects involved.

There is more different than just how it looks. Surely you know that with all the time you spend playing KR.

Beyond that, everything remains relatively the same in regards to 2d vs 3d. The perspective is still "3d isometric" regardless of client, so calling Legacy "2d" is really a misnomer, but makes for effective "shorthand".

I agree with that. I use 2D as the common term even though its not 100% accurate.

The thing that drives me up the wall is when I read people saying "Well if they'd update 2d with better graphics and interface etc etc etc" at which point I just want to take these people by the collar and shake them madly while yelling "WHAT DO YOU THINK KR IS?!?!?!!". KR is every bit "2d" as the Legacy client. It just has higher resolution artwork and a new Interface.

Many people don't like the 'new interface' part. I don't myself. That's not to say I don't want an improved interface for '2D'. But there was too much about KR's interface that I didn't like. And yes, there are things about it that I do like as well. Just like there are things about legacy that I don't like either.

And the artwork is much more than just 'higher resolution'. Its completely different art. The characters in KR look horrible, to me. Paperdolls have been improved but still not something I like. The characters in game still look terrible though. Some buildings look good. Some creatures look good. Grass looks ugly in every screenshot I have seen (and on my monster pc that has been tweaked with every KR tweak you guys have suggested).

Even the developers agree that many mistakes were made in the design of KR. Those mistakes, for some, were game killers in regards to KR vs Legacy. If SA addresses those mistakes and provides good changes as opposed to changes for the sake of change then maybe SA will be more successful.

As you said, its all subjective. In your mind, KR was a good client and something you wanted to use every day. In mine it was horribly flawed, ugly and something I can't stand looking at, much less playing.

Who is right? You are. And so am I. But me more so. (that last part was a joke of course)

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I can agree with most of that. The UI is very different, and what was actually FINISHED, I've found to be MUCH better than 2d. The hotbars are INSANELY powerful compared to 2d (and even more powerful than real 3d MMOGs that use hotbars (WoW for instance) because you can throw EVERYTHING on a hotbar either for use or simply just to track the value/amount. The crafting menus allow for a MUCH easier time in crafting thanks to Make Number, Make Max, and Toggle as Quest Item, and the Map system is close to what UOAM provides in terms of waypoint marking.

BUT

KR isn't without its UI flaws either.

The map artwork was a mistake as was reversing how you input coordinates (we fixed these in our custom UIs although I'm not sure if the "classic" maps are still availible since UOSkins.com dropped as well as adding in nifty additions such as your current sextant coords below the minimap that update in real time)

The targeting system is incomplete and does not function smoothly.

The Macro system has issues with "breakable" objects in that you have to rebuild the macro when the item breaks, you cannot "slide" a new tool in the same slot the broken one is in, nor does it "use by item type".

The house customization system doesn't work

Vendors cannot be dressed in KR and placement of items on a vendor is tricky to match with 2d.

So yeah, KR has its problems, but mainly due to the release schedule and the abandonment due to the move. If KR failed, it wasn't due to the client itself, but due to how it was handled by the devs by releasing it when they did and then not continuing work on it.

Where I disagree with you, and this is just person preference is on the terrain. I LOVE the terrain in KR. I love how detailed it is. I love seeing leaves on the trees and grass that looks like grass. To me, the 2d terrain is too reminicent of SNES era Final Fantasy (4 and 6 or 2 and 3 if that's how you know them)... not a bad thing in itself, but not up to par with what an MMOG could have regardless of when it was released.

Trust me, I will NEVER say that KR was ever "perfect"... I was even one of the people who worked to getting a "users patch project" running BECAUSE the client was unfinished and had problems (that project grew into the Modders Exchange). I knew that KR had the POTENTIAL to be better than it was, that just MAYBE we as players who knew how to play with the UI code given to us could as least try and help out the client (and having seen the feedback over the past couple of years, I say we did pretty well at helping people like the client better).

I just don't want that potential stymied by a small group of people who are "2d or I quit". Everytime I read those lines I have to restrain myself from posting "Well then, just freaking quit already and go away" (or something worse that would probably get the mods mad at me ).

 

[D'Amavir]

I just don't want that potential stymied by a small group of people who are "2d or I quit". Everytime I read those lines I have to restrain myself from posting "Well then, just freaking quit already and go away" (or something worse that would probably get the mods mad at me ).

Just curious, if EA came out and said they were cancelled SA, shutting down KR and sticking with just 2D, what would you say?

I know a lot of people that would quit if that happened. People want what they want. And with the subjective nature of things in online games, its always going to be like this.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I probably would move towards quitting because after having played in 3d and now KR, 2d is all but unplayable to me. It's too limiting.

The game window is too small to be useful, containers are miniscule, and the UI loses a LOT of usefullness (and I refuse to PURCHASE an external program that hacks the client to make up for the deficiencies regardless of "legality").

The graphics aren't that big of a deal, but the limitedness of the technology of the client is IMO. It's one of those issues that you don't really understand the limitations UNTIL you use a system that gives you more than previously.

Case in point... how many of these "2d or die" people would quit UO if they didn't have UOA? How many threads do we get when UOA doesn't work due to a patch and they have to wait for an update? Same thing basically, just mine is based more on the client as a whole and not the existence of an external program.

 

[D'Amavir]

I would be down for the KR graphics If I were able to keep the legacy UI. What they should do is allow you to turn on and off different elements to suit the player. like

SA graphics + Legacy UI
SA UI + Legacy graphics
SA graphics + SA UI
Legacy graphics + Legacy UI

Make everything one client and let the people choose what they want.

In a perfect world, I am with you 100%. But, sadly, I don't think something like that is possible in this instance. I do think there should be 'one' client. But that 'one' client needs to have enough crossover appeal for both sides (Legacy loves and KR lovers) in order for it to be successful. It also needs to appeal to non UO players enough to get more of them in our camp.

Will SA be this 'one' client? I sure hope so. But, and I only speak for myself here, if its just KR or 3rd Dawn all over again, its not going to cut it.

Now, taking the best of 2D, 3rd Dawn and KR and making one 'perfect' client would rock. There is enough good in each of those that could be ported over. Would it be easy? Not at all. Would it even be possible? I am not sure. But would it be great? Indeed!

 

[D'Amavir]

...

I probably would move towards quitting because after having played in 3d and now KR, 2d is all but unplayable to me. It's too limiting.

The game window is too small to be useful, containers are miniscule, and the UI loses a LOT of usefullness (and I refuse to PURCHASE an external program that hacks the client to make up for the deficiencies regardless of "legality").

The graphics aren't that big of a deal, but the limitedness of the technology of the client is IMO. It's one of those issues that you don't really understand the limitations UNTIL you use a system that gives you more than previously.

Case in point... how many of these "2d or die" people would quit UO if they didn't have UOA? How many threads do we get when UOA doesn't work due to a patch and they have to wait for an update? Same thing basically, just mine is based more on the client as a whole and not the existence of an external program.

But that's just it. UOA is a tool that helps people get past a lot of the 'flaws' in the legacy client. It doesn't fix it all, of course. But it fixes a lot of them. I guarantee you that if Legacy went away and only KR was left, 3rd party tools would be popping up every day made by people looking to fix things that they consider 'flaws' in the client.

A targeting tool.
A KR UOAutomap tool
A house customization tool
A 'make the terrain look better to you' tool

The point is that people use things to help make the game more enjoyable for them. UOA is just an example of that. Just like the whole 'player created UI' stuff is an example of people 'tweaking' KR.

You would quit if it was 2D only because to you its unplayable. But people play it every day. Others would quit if it was KR only because to them its unplayable. But people play it every day.

If a person doesn't enjoy a game, or a change made to a game they used to enjoy, they have the option of quitting. If they really will is another story of course.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

When I say it's "unplayable" I mean it's unplayable to me.

Quick comparison...

I have a 1968 Camaro Rally Sport that is about 99% done with restoration. Now back in 68, you didn't have wonderful things like Power Steering, Power Brakes, or Air Conditioning. However, we added those to the restoration because they make USING the car easier (especially the whole air conditionging thing living in Florida... kind of a must have if you know what I mean). Now of course, there are purists who would frown on such things, but this is as much of a car that I will be driving around as it is a collectible in its own right, so we put it back as stock as possible, just with a few little "tweaks".

For me, going back to 2d would be like stripping out the power and AC from the Camaro (and in case you're curious, the Camaro is a 4 speed manual... like all good sports/muscle cars should be)

 

[The Craftsman]

Just curious, if EA came out and said they were cancelled SA, shutting down KR and sticking with just 2D, what would you say?

Dermott stated on the old stratics forums that he WOULD quit UO if they ever made SA 2d compatible. He wont of course as he hasnt the courage of his convictions.

So .. to answer your question ... he'd say that he would quit but of course he wouldnt.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Graphic glitches, i'm not sure if everyone has the same problems on their screen but some of the things I can think of, would be Pap bank. If you stand in one square everything looks fine but if not the carpet is cut up, the table is cut up and there's walls missing.

I also have flames that bleed through different levels on my screen and the tapestries flop ontop of other objects.

I think also the music should work better and sound affects, like when by the ocean you can hear the ocean, when leaving one area and going to another area the right music plays. I'm not sure how much of problem that really is but I think the sounds add alot to the game, like wind, leaves rustling, birds, etc...

I really like to see what SA is going to be like before I comment. This is just what I could tell from KR.

 

[D'Amavir]

...

When I say it's "unplayable" I mean it's unplayable to me.

Quick comparison...

I have a 1968 Camaro Rally Sport that is about 99% done with restoration. Now back in 68, you didn't have wonderful things like Power Steering, Power Brakes, or Air Conditioning. However, we added those to the restoration because they make USING the car easier (especially the whole air conditionging thing living in Florida... kind of a must have if you know what I mean). Now of course, there are purists who would frown on such things, but this is as much of a car that I will be driving around as it is a collectible in its own right, so we put it back as stock as possible, just with a few little "tweaks".

For me, going back to 2d would be like stripping out the power and AC from the Camaro (and in case you're curious, the Camaro is a 4 speed manual... like all good sports/muscle cars should be)

Exactly! You took a classic and improved it by adding new technology to it. That's what I want to happen with UO. I want the classic to be improved with new technology. Now, you can say that that is what KR is. And that is a valid opinion. But there are also people that say a 85 Camaro is an improvement on the classic '68. I don't know you personally but I am pretty sure you are with me in saying that that is not the case. The classic is much much better. Add in the new tech and it gets even better.

You don't have to rebuild from scratch in order to make a classic better. To me, that is where they went wrong with 3rd Dawn and KR. They tried to rebuild it all into this new model (the 85 Camaro) instead of souping up the classic model (the 68 Camaro).

Take the ac, the power steering and the power windows out of the 85 and plug it into a '68 and you have something really nice. Slap on a new paint job and some nice rims and you have a complete winner. But, like you said, some purists will be opposed to even that. EA can't cater to the small but vocal groups on either side of this situation. They need to focus on the broader playerbase and release something with more crossover appeal.

And ya, I am in Florida myself and without AC I would probably end up PK'ing everyone around me.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I'll agree... though I'd call 3d the 85 Camaro and KR the 2010 Camaro

And I think they did a damn good jobon the new Camaro style... if they ever get it released before the FedGov starts to destroy the company the way they are with Chrysler... but that's a whole nother topic, just making the comparison for UO sake

 

[D'Amavir]

...

I'll agree... though I'd call 3d the 85 Camaro and KR the 2010 Camaro

And I think they did a damn good jobon the new Camaro style... if they ever get it released before the FedGov starts to destroy the company the way they are with Chrysler... but that's a whole nother topic, just making the comparison for UO sake

3d was the 85, KR was the 95 and, hopefully, SA will be the 2010. Can cars be labeled 'vaporware'?

 

[GarthGrey]

The Federal Government is to blame for Chrysler failing? Would you care to enlighten the rest of us over in OT? Please make a thread titled The Fed is to blame for Chryslers woes....ty.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Not previously, but considering what they are doing to the company by screwing over the bondholders by forcing them to accept 29 cents on the dollar for their holdings while making the UAW whole on their holdings AND giving the Union 55% ownership of Chrysler, they are pushing it towards failure even more so.

But again, that's OT as it was an aside to the comparison at hand. Do a little research though... the stuff going on with the auto "bailouts" is borderline criminal.

I just hope that UO never tries for such a "bailout"

 

[Fink]

Sorry for rambling here. The tl;dr version is below the ---- line.


I think we need to take a few deep breaths and consider a few things here.

Firstly, we must stop calling the SA client KR, or vice versa. They've gone to great pains to push the idea that SA is an entirely new attempt at a new client. This is because initially KR was so poorly received, who wants the bad press of "KR mk II"? Most people have refused to give KR another shot even after all the work that has been done to it since because of that initial reaction. It's work that we can all agree should have been done before release. By creating the SA client hey've opted for the cleanest break they could from KR, yet the stigma remains.

So, SA client.

Let's give this one a fair shot and not condemn it before anyone's actually seen it, yeah? So far we have a few rudimentary screen shots and some vague ideas to go on, so it's difficult to argue emphatically against it with any degree of credibility, yet people will continue to do so. Again, SA is not KR, nor is it 3D. It's not 2D either but they're saying they'll make it as 2D-like as possible. I think that's a decent concession.

Let's look at it from a developer's point of view for a moment. You have a client come to you that needs a product designed. They have at least a dozen different takes on what it should be or do, but none of them can agree on a single specification. Some of them even say they don't need a new product. You've not even shown them a working prototype and they're already telling you it's not what they want, before they've tried it. I'd drop that client like a hot stone, I don't need the money that badly.

That's an interesting point, I feel.

EA/Mythic do not need the money that badly. They could easily churn out a wow-alike and make a squillion off the masses of gamers who simply like to "fight and level up". UO could be dropped in the too hard basket tomorrow and EA/Mythic would roll on with the next thing. Clearly someone there cares enough about UO to keep it alive. And to do so in the long term, they must help it evolve.

I think we owe it to the game we love to meet the developers half-way on this SA client. What? ME owe? But they owe ME for being a loyal customer since before alpha! Yes, and the reward for all those years of subscription was all those marvelous years of gameplay. Being a UO fan isn't a burden for which we must be compensated, although some people clearly think that way.

I think we need to shift into a more positive mindset about the SA client. Sure we've been burned before, and we have our misgivings, but tarring it with the same brush as the much-maligned KR before it's even had a chance is really sabotaging UO's future.

---------

I guess attitudes are the things I feel that most need addressing before SA is launched.

That aside, I think one feature they really have to nail is making the classic "freeform" container view as nearly matched to 2D as possible, or legacy users will be fundamentally disoriented.

 

[Fink]

Will SA be this 'one' client? I sure hope so. But, and I only speak for myself here, if its just KR or 3rd Dawn all over again, its not going to cut it.

Trouble is nobody can agree on what the "best" of each of those were.

 

[D'Amavir]

Trouble is nobody can agree on what the "best" of each of those were.

Agreed. That's why I said that crossover appeal is so important. They will never make everyone happy but if they can get enough people from both sides it could be a success.

 

[Zooithion]

Fink: Well thought out and well said. I agree.

 

[Tom_Builder]

I want to right click and close menus

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Where I think they keep falling down is that they always feel the need to change the way you set macros, change what macros you can set and change where all the default keys are.

If they could leave those alone or at least see fit to include it as an optional other setup (in full - aka not KR's legacy mode) then they can put it in whatever graphics and engine they like & it will be a lot more popular than efforts to date. Personally I don't care about graphics, game engines, third party whatevers, gold sinks, sales, their share prices or any of the other stuff thats not my concern. What is my concern is being able to play the game how I've always played it, if I can't do that then for me it isn't an upgrade.

 

[Aran]

It's kind of cute how Dermott wants to tell of people who say if 2D goes they'll quit, but he just said he'd probably quit if KR/SA was cancelled, and has said similarly in the past.


Hey Dermott, just quit now. SA will fail and go the way of KR and 3D.