The Loss of the Community Spirit

[hawkeye_pike]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

 

[Splup]

I gotta agree with this. Pre AoS ppl were just having good time with each other, now ppl are trying to get the best items available forgetting the social side of the game.

 

[onthefifty]

i cannot opine as i did not play back then. presently though your comment holds much merit as there is a certain percentage of the playing base that are all about the items.

i must say though that i've come across many in this game that have been most helpful and unselfish.

ultimately, though UO can be viewed as a cross section of life with good, bad and indifference.

nice site you have by the way.

regards

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

I don't quite agree with your analysis. I think it has a lot more to do with significant increase in off-game interactions. For instance, even hardcore PvPers spend hours interacting with other players, albeit on a third party program such as vent. A significant amount of interaction that would have happened in game before, happens via these programs these days.

 

[Basara]

Partially disagree about the player interaction part. There is significantly more player interaction outside Fel than inside. The Pre-Tram interactions were much greater, because one had to work as a team to survive the PKs.

And it's the PvPers that are the item-obsessed, not the "care bears". If it had been the latter, then why was all the duping that occurred have been things that were duped to give PvPers an edge, or to create things for the PvPers more so than the non-Fel crowd.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I don't quite agree with your analysis. I think it has a lot more to do with significant increase in off-game interactions. For instance, even hardcore PvPers spend hours interacting with other players, albeit on a third party program such as vent. A significant amount of interaction that would have happened in game before, happens via these programs these days.

People use voice over now. They are talking.

And thats about it.

Repair deeds, no looting, easy rezzing, uber solor gear, and all that makes the game less MMO and more MEMEMEMEME.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Totally disagree about the player interaction part.

And it's the PvPers that are the item-obsessed, not the "care bears".

I migh disagree with your disagree a bit. The PvM are able to solo with gear or for instance sampire templates.

All these changes made it easier for a single player to do it all.

 

[Basara]

Actually, Raven, I edited my post while you were replying.

But, for the most part, it was the item-based PvP mentality that drove most duping. A sampire, for the most part, could be be done with "off-the-shelf" items without requiring dupes (especially after the Midnight bracers showed up as cursed arties).

 

[Black Sun]

I agree in part. With the introduction of insurance death did lose all meaning, and the game became more item driven.

However, I don't think this hurt the community as much as your post suggests. I left UO not long after AOS was introduced, after a 3 year break I returned to find an even greater sense of community than I had experienced before. It seems with more of a desire by players to own these higher end items, the more they are working together to obtain them.

I can see how it might be difficult for a new player looking to PvP, and having to compete with players who have established themselves and have all high end equipment. But for the most part I have no PvP experiance (last time I PvP'd was ages ago back before I moth-balled my thief). But I have seen first hand (and even been a part of it) the outpouring of help and support from established players towards new players who are struggling just starting out.

Overall, based on my experiances, I'd say the community spirit is just as good as it ever was.

 

[Endrik]

I agree with Tomas. As out-of-game tech becomes more abundant, we no longer need to use outdated in game methods of communicating.

I think a major factor that nobody ever seems to take into consideration is the lack of "fresh blood". We have nearly NO new players these days. The only time we really get a new player is when their spouse finally talks them into playing, in which case they already have an instant support system in place. You have to realize that nearly everybody who is playing UO has been playing UO for a while now. When you have a game where the vast majority of the players are "vets" who know their way around, and have fully built characters, your not going to have the interaction that was present during the early years when people had to rely on others for information, repairs, support. Today most people have their own crafters, tamers and rune libraries.

The problem with nostalgia is that it is rarely accurate. Sure you may have good memories of the past. But your going to have a sense of awe and discovery with anything new, and UO is no longer new to most people.

Item Insurance did NOT ruin this game. I see this complaint a lot on these boards, but when you really look at it, this argument is deeply flawed. If its truly the risk that you desire, you are completely free to turn off insurence and play with all the risk you want. Not only would you be getting the risk you say you want, but you would also be saving the money lost on all your deaths. Win Win. No, what people really mean when they say they miss the risk, is that they miss being able to take other peoples stuff.

As for Insurance in PvP, I feel this helped PvP more then anything else has. Now anybody can suit up and go fight without worrying about loosing all their hard earned items. In the olden days, only the good pvpers ended up wearing good items because they didnt die as much. So the more experience you had, the better items you would wear, which means you had players with a lot of experience slaughtering players who did not have the experience, and could not afford to risk using good gear. Talk about an advantage. No, todays system allows for much more pvp. Now a person can get nearly any arti in the game and have a decent pvp suit for almost nothing. They can then use that pvp suit without the fear of loosing it, which means they are more likely to participate more often.

Both in the old days and presently people are fighting in the same way... Both sides used to use crap, today both sides use good stuff. In the old days if you killed somebody, you could loot the crap, today if you kill somebody you get gold deposited directly into your bank box. If there was no insurence people would not be running around in the stuff they are using now, and it would not be worth looting them. Todays system both allows inexperienced players to enter the field, as well as rewarding the winner with a safe transfer of funds directly to their account at the moment they defeat their enemy.

Insurance does not keep people from PvP, it allows them to take part without risking everything, and while still rewarding the winner. When people complain about missing the risk, they really mean they miss screwing over other players. Stop coming here and claiming you miss the good old days and miss the risk when we all know its a lie. Again, if you want the risk, walk the walk and uninsure your crap.

As for me... I love that I can get home from a long day at work or school, hop on, pvm or pvp and not have to worry about losing everything I have worked for. There is no way in hell I would want to have a stressful day at work, come home and log in to UO just to spend an hour looking for a smith to repair my weapon, a tailor to repair my armor, a tamer to rez my pet, just to run to fell, get dropped in 30 seconds, and loose everything. Are you kidding me? Today I can get on and actually PLAY with friends in different guilds. The last thing I want in a game I pay for is to loose everything everytime I get on.

If loosing your stuff really does it for you, then great, uninsure your stuff and come duel me. Id be happy to oblige. Then we would both win, I get your stuff, and you get the risk/thrill you apparently love so much.

 

[Omnius]

I don't quite agree with your analysis. I think it has a lot more to do with significant increase in off-game interactions. For instance, even hardcore PvPers spend hours interacting with other players, albeit on a third party program such as vent. A significant amount of interaction that would have happened in game before, happens via these programs these days.

I take exception to this kind of statement as I've seen that the majority of communities and by communities I mean groups of people who get along well and engage in activity on a daily basis are pvpers in pvp guilds and thieves guilds.

 

[Leaf]

I think a major factor that nobody ever seems to take into consideration is the lack of "fresh blood". We have nearly NO new players these days. The only time we really get a new player is when their spouse finally talks them into playing, in which case they already have an instant support system in place. You have to realize that nearly everybody who is playing UO has been playing UO for a while now. When you have a game where the vast majority of the players are "vets" who know their way around, and have fully built characters, your not going to have the interaction that was present during the early years when people had to rely on others for information, repairs, support. Today most people have their own crafters, tamers and rune libraries.

For one thing, if you go into any of the stores or shopping malls, you never see UO on the shelves. I shop at Best Buy in Maryland and I haven't seen an Ultima Online Game in years. WOW, Everquest etc is on every shelf. How do we expect to get new blood if we don't even market the product.

 

[Leaf]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

If you want community spirit, play Seige. It is a very tight knit community where people are always interacting with each other whether it be PvP, PvM, Crafting etc. You are held accountable by your actions and your reputation means everything. There is no insurance, your guild mates are very important to your survival and life is always exciting. Just a thought.

 

[Endrik]

For one thing, if you go into any of the stores or shopping malls, you never see UO on the shelves. I shop at Best Buy in Maryland and I haven't seen an Ultima Online Game in years. WOW, Everquest etc is on every shelf. How do we expect to get new blood if we don't even market the product.

Thats exactly my point. Its not insurance that is killing things, its the lack of new players. And without any shelf presence (Or even a working download site) there is no way we are ever gong to get more people to start playing. Even people that already know how great UO is and WANT to come back have trouble if they no longer have their install discs. I dont think UO even has a single marketing employee, let alone department. The most likely pass on all marketing responsibilities to EA corporate where they are too busy selling billboard adds to the Obama campaign in console racing games.

Sure UO has shelf presence... its just an old dusty shelf in a forgotten storeroom in EAs basement.

 

[SoulWeaver]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

I completely agree and do you want your answer to the problem...... Bring your friends, family, enemies, cousins, brothers, fathers, and mothers.... to Siege Perilous......... Give it a try our community is more then willing to help you...

 

[Andsteel]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

I agree with you about community spirit. Back in '97 and '98 there was a real sense of community. People interacted more, helped more etc. I remember running into Trinsic as a ghost (often!) and people I didn't know saying "who killed you? Where are they?" and they would rush off and hunt for the PK.
There may well be community spirit today but it is not as obvious as it used to be.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

I thought of a solution that might have been tried long ago. Make PVP a switch in which a character can choose to be attacked but cannot attack anyone unless they also have the pvp switch on or that person without the switch on has attacked them at some time and has not died since then. So the first person to switch on will have to wait for someone to attack them. Once that happens they can attack back until the attacker dies. Once the attacker dies he can no longer be attacked until he attacks again. Then get rid of trammel felluca rulesets.

 

[wrekognize]

Partially disagree about the player interaction part. There is significantly more player interaction outside Fel than inside. The Pre-Tram interactions were much greater, because one had to work as a team to survive the PKs.

And it's the PvPers that are the item-obsessed, not the "care bears". If it had been the latter, then why was all the duping that occurred have been things that were duped to give PvPers an edge, or to create things for the PvPers more so than the non-Fel crowd.

I agree. Vent is the main reason you do not see communication in game. Nearly 90% of PVP guilds have vent and communicate through that means.

I find the items in UO to have added depth. It provides more strategy than just trying to hit that same combo every time you fight someone. It gives people a reason to go hunt for items/gold, so they can get that one thing that will help them. I left before AOS was released, but when I came back I found the items to be refreshing. Now I had a reason to go hunt!

Edit: Also, Auctions were never even thought of prior to items being in the game. This has been a huge driving force for building the UO community. Auctions would not exist if it were not for the items being introduced to the world.

 

[Gellor]

Can't say I agree with "items causing the loss of community" theory.

The bigger loss of community was largely caused by the introduction of huge housing masses.

Yep, the intro of Tram and huge land masses killed a large part of the community feel... aka the player run establishments(towns, inns, etc).

PvP and such never caused an issue with the running and establishment of communities. Often, PvP caused people to band together at them.

Further, Tram ruleset caused people to become SUPER sensitive about dying. It used to be dying was no big deal and was a common occurrence... people simply went and rearmed and went about their way. Now people bemoan loosing 3k in insurance gold and the loss of bandaids, pots, and other "disposable" items.

 

[Oriana]

Come visit Baja, we maybe one of the smaller shards but we have a fantastic community on both facets and often intermingled. And it's not about items it's about playing and enjoying various playstyles that can be combined in many situations.

 

[gjohnson5]

Actually, Raven, I edited my post while you were replying.

But, for the most part, it was the item-based PvP mentality that drove most duping. A sampire, for the most part, could be be done with "off-the-shelf" items without requiring dupes (especially after the Midnight bracers showed up as cursed arties).

Unfortunately the duping were just ideas ,and hence programming attemtps to show merit to those ideas. What drove the duping was the inability (still to this day) to fix the issue once duping became reality

 

[gjohnson5]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

I dunno. IMHO I wasn't a big RPGer back in the start of Ultima Online because I like the other people was wanting riches and better items myself. Personally gaining better items and wealth is true for everyone. However due to being PK'd, I had to spend time getting skills up. I had alot of drawbacks. In that end the game back then for me was somewhat frustrating. I wasn't looking into ways to exploit the game or guild for strength in numbers. Even when I was in a guild most of those guilds were not active. I was basically a solo player then and am still basically a solo player to this day. In the early days many more exploits to the game were abound (because nothing ever got fixed) I was 25 w/ and Internet Service job when the game came out. I'm 36 now and and still an IT guy (except I don't take tech support calls) I have limited time to spend playing the game and socializing afterwards. MMRPG this and MMRPG that. In the end the game should be about having fun

Trammel did make it easier for solo players to do things. But still the exploiters and the guild people generally had the most success. In that end wealth increased dramatically and item procurement also increased dramatically mainly for dupers. Still to this day that hadnt changed. I personally have more fun in trammel w/insurance due to the way I play. I think guilding / role playing shouldn't be shoved down peoples throats

 

[Lore Master]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

I am sorry but i do not agree i mean what gives you or anyone else the right to take my hard earned items after killing me its like some people are asking to be rewarded for doing the wrong thing like murdering someone I know its just a game but still to me killing a blue is still wrong.

• Insurance is a good thing in my opinion. Yes UO is more item based then ever but i rather have social interactions about item gathering and exchanging items then players complaining you killed me you looted me give me my ******* stuff back you ******** that would cause a lot more grieving then there is grieving now that is how i feel anyway i am not looking for an argument just stating my opinion.

 

[Hopeful]

As a player that has limited playing time I can say for sure that if insurance was taken out of the game I would close my account. Why? Because loosing the few decent items I come across during that limited time would set me back too far in this item based game.
Now if it were 8 years ago,when player crafted items fueled the economy, and elite items were few (and no one knew what you had without IDing it) it would make sense. You would loose stuff and need to replace it by buying it or making it. And the stuff you lost to that PKer would break eventually. Even he needed a crafter to exist. It kept a nice balance of supply and demand.
The community you speak of can be had by creating it yourself in ANY atmosphere. Just say hello to people.
What you really mean is " PKing doesnt pay anymore"."Everyone gets to keep the stuff Im killing them to get". If you want more risk just go to a shard that offers that or dont insure the items you have. Then you can die and say you did it your way and pat yourself on the back.
Perhaps there should be a payoff for such risk. No insurance on your char results in higher rewards from loot.
As for me, Im not antisocial ,I just dont have the time to join a guilde or meet with them due to odd work hours. But changing things so I would HAVE to do so would hurt the game I think. A new player (while still very challenged) has it much easier now than in the past. If they cant keep a usable item long enough to understand how it works for them they will give up. That really hurts the game.
We lose newbies.. EA loses more money.. game gets less attention (is that possilbe?)... and you have fewer people to socialize with or as I suspect.. PREY upon. The United Pirates? you shoulda used a different banner for your "statement" LOL
After looking at your site I see a very social (and very cool) way of playing the game by you. I PvM full time so my veiw is geared that way. However if yours is implamented it would only benefit PKers.

 

[katherinepgoh]

re: Hopeful
Hawkeye and the United Pirates are roleplayers and a roleplaying guild who engage in consensual warred RPPVP. We already have strict no looting rules in the RP community, and are actually using GM crafter made items to make crafters more useful again, since EA really isn't staying on the ball with that.

Before you assume someone is a predator of players, and point out that they're UNITED PIRATES, maybe you should click his banner link and find out more. ^_^

 

[Mattitracks]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

I think UO never was much of a role-playing game. You're living in a dream if you ever believe it was. Yes there are plenty of "RP'ers" but this game has never been a RPG no matter how hard Richard Garriot wanted to believe it was. Motives and intent only go so far.

What else do I think? I think you're sitting on a high horse there buddy. I can remember you from way back and I always thought you to be an opinionated [well I'll leave the next word out. =D] You will not force the current generation of players to conform and become social butterflies. You have to understand that the current game dynamics decide the type of player you encounter. They don't want to sit and chat, they want to farm monsters and sit afk showing off their wealth. I can understand that, it might not be my idea of fun but I can respect that.

Really, you just never have seemed happy with how the game is run. From the dreads to the current crop of PCs, you just don't seem capable of being content. Maybe you should quit..... and no we don't know each other, I'm just fairly observant.

There also is no need to tell me in what ways I'm wrong. I'm no jury, I'm not judging you, as my thoughts and beliefs about someone can easily change, but through actions not a reply on a messageboard. Judgment is permanent, this is just how you've come across to a few of us over the years.

Something to look at? No?
Cheers!

 

[Maplestone]

What do you think?

-1 Flamebait

 

[Farsight]

I would just like to add, Pike, that I respectfully disagree with the statement.

To some people, it may be true. But I'm not one of those people. Without interaction, there is no UO. Without other people, both friend and enemy, it's just "U"

Then again, we do have our monthly social gathering centered around items exchange this coming weekend. Or as we like to call it, the Black Market Event.

 

[Bomb Bloke]

Item Insurance did NOT ruin this game. I see this complaint a lot on these boards, but when you really look at it, this argument is deeply flawed. If its truly the risk that you desire, you are completely free to turn off insurence and play with all the risk you want. Not only would you be getting the risk you say you want, but you would also be saving the money lost on all your deaths. Win Win. No, what people really mean when they say they miss the risk, is that they miss being able to take other peoples stuff.

Think about that a tick. Assume for a minute that this morning we all woke up and insurance/bless was disabled. Now, assuming everyone noticed this before running out into the field, what sort of suits do you think people would be wearing?

The amount of "high end" items people would be running around with would drop dramatically. If they put all their eggs in one basket like that, they'd get ganked and have the lot taken. No, people would suddenly revert to wearing much lower end armor in PvP, stuff that could be replaced on a whim.

That would mean new players would be able to compete much earlier, and it'd suddenly be worthwhile to collect (and sell!) "non-uber" items that your typical monster drops (as opposed to the current system, where the odds of finding something better then you or anyone else are already wearing are... remote).

So would all the artifacts become worthless overnight? No, people would soon figure out that insurance isn't all it's cracked up to be when you're playing under a Trammel ruleset. Monsters seldom loot, those that do can be killed and the items recovered. Granted there's plenty of holes in that where players could use monsters to get your gear, but as a result maybe there'd be less people going out and hunting without some friends close at hand.

Under the current system, people can go out, earn eg. a Crimson Cinture, bless it, and effectively have those bonuses FOREVER. The only way other players can compete is to go out and get the same items by playing with the almighty RNG.

Just turning off your own insurance is not the same thing. Think about that one, too. All you're doing is guaranteeing that the next time you go to Fel, you will be ganked by everyman and his dog, your artis will all be taken and you'll no longer be able to compete. There's a difference between "russian roulette" with a revolver, and "russian roulette" with a semi-automatic.

Now, none of this means that item insurance DID ruin Ultima. But it does mean it caused significant changes to the way the game is played, and greatly raised the bar as to what "competitive equipment" looks like. Let's face it, when a newbie walks into Luna, you know it's a newbie without a second glance: They aren't wearing a full set of artis yet.

 

[MalagAste]

I think there a dozens of different causes for the lack of community....

One would be that cheaters always seem to get away scott free... Scammers never get busted.... there is no punishment for being a jerkoff .... so they are allowed to continue to scam folk left and right.... making more and more people less and less trusting of others.... so the game becomes more and more of a tight nit social club..... folk don't interact with others well......

No new fresh folk entering the game.... most of those who come into UO now NEW aren't NEW, NEW..... they are OLD returnee's..... who haven't played for 5 or 6 years and are coming back because they got bored with the pixel crack and decided to return to something they have fond memories of..... only it's not the game it was 6 years ago..... Or they are friends or relatives of OLD players who started now because they want to spend time with those family members... or friends.....

Ventrilo and other voice chat programs have definitely made an impact on ingame chat..... but while that can play a part it also does strengthen some bonds... again forming clicks ingame much like a high school....

Another thing is the item hungry, gold mongering..... everyone seems to be driven by how much things are going for.... Sad really but true..... it is item driven now....

Though I will say this.... as far as communities go there are still a few that continue to thrive or survive despite all the losses....

Role-players still hold community dear.... they still talk in-game... they still remain true to their character...

I will remind everyone that you get out of the game what you are willing to put into it..... If all your in it for is the stuff then that's all you'll have.... if your in it for friendship then that's not far away.... If your in it to get away from the normal day to day dulldrums of your real life and you want to be someone then maybe you should be looking at finding a good RP community on your shard.... even if you don't think you know anything about RP there are many who would be more than happy to show you the ropes so to speak....

As for myself.... I'm in it for the fun, community and role-play.... though it has it's ups and downs it's still better than anything else on the market... No other game comes close to UO and I highly doubt any other game will... It may not have the most high tech pixel crack but what it doesn't have in pixels it makes up for in content and in it's overall package... where else can you find orcs, Elves, Humans, and even demon kind roaming around, with auction houses, taverns, dragons, and anything else anyone could imagine.... the greatest thing about UO is the lack of boundaries.... it's only limit is your own imagination..... it's not about reaching any level.... It's not about having the right armor or weapon at the right level.... it's not about how many are in your party.... or if you have the right number of mages vs a tank.... or whatever.... it's about what you put into it.... what ever limit you set for yourself.... there is no winner or loser... no top level.... No maximum or minimum standard you MUST have.... As for me I have my own goals for the game.... I'm still working on them..... (one day I just might GM that begging!)...

Perhaps if folk took more time to talk to other people outside their click they might just find there are a whole host of other people in the game they have been missing..... who knows....

Would a shelf presence help UO??? Well that's anyones guess.... my guess is it wouldn't hurt.... though I don't know how many folk could see past the graphics to what UO really is... hard to say. Would they do better advertising free gametime????? Again hard to say... My guess is that UO would do much better if it focused more on making it's still paying customers happy first.... fixing the bugs, the hacks, the cheats and the dupes first... then worry about the rest .... because I have a feeling that if EA/UO continues to actively be listening like they have been in recent months to the players that remain they may just win back a whole host of players who left... and those players might just bring with them a bunch of players who never tried UO before... you never know.

 

[Hopeful]

re: Hopeful
Hawkeye and the United Pirates are roleplayers and a roleplaying guild who engage in consensual warred RPPVP. We already have strict no looting rules in the RP community, and are actually using GM crafter made items to make crafters more useful again, since EA really isn't staying on the ball with that.

Before you assume someone is a predator of players, and point out that they're UNITED PIRATES, maybe you should click his banner link and find out more. ^_^

Youre right thats why I edited my post to add the last line. They are certainly more dedicated players than myself. Its was the irony that made me look at the site. But since Im not in the habit of clicking on banners that send me to strange websites, I was posting regarding the context of the statement and how said change would affect me. If the post had no banner... I would have limited insight to its authors politics. From this POV I can (ass)(u)(me) as much as anyone.
I m really new to this as my post count shows. Im not trying to piis off people. But I gotta say... I still think its funny. And I still think he wants to take my stuff when he kills me.

 

[Cybrdragon]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

I agree. There was a HUGE change in the social dynamics of the game immediately following the release of AoS. It basically destroyed the game for most of my friends and now I barely play.

 

[DPudding]

Well....I don't play to hang out with people. That's what real life is for. My friends are people I can go to a ballgame with....or have a nice dinner....or play some golf. I play to run around and kill stuff and try to make my character as tough as it can be. That means, from time to time, I gotta team up with some folks. But most of the time....I go hunting alone. Granted....when a team is required....there are a few folks that I prefer to be aligned with. But they remain little more than acquaintences. People pay for a game so they can do stuff....they can jump in a chat room for free and make all the friends they want.

 

[Harlequin]

Item Insurance did NOT ruin this game. I see this complaint a lot on these boards, but when you really look at it, this argument is deeply flawed. If its truly the risk that you desire, you are completely free to turn off insurence and play with all the risk you want. Not only would you be getting the risk you say you want, but you would also be saving the money lost on all your deaths. Win Win. No, what people really mean when they say they miss the risk, is that they miss being able to take other peoples stuff.

I have to agree with Endrik here.

Pre-insurance, most folks only brought out their valorite runic vanq katana if they could bless it (from the cleanup britaininia item bless deed), or for duels where they are confident they can get it back. This includes the server down wars.

If it's not blessed or cannot be recovered, whoever's carrying around that vanq katana quickly became priority gank bait

At these times (ie when they did not have blessed items), they'd use items that can be easily replaced, eg GM crafted armour and weapons.

In this instance, insurance sort of equalized the playing field. Otherwise, the guy with the blessed vanq katana would have a distinct advantage.

Besides, I was an item hoarding care-bear before AOS or even UOR heh

 

[Bomb Bloke]

So the guy carrying the vanq katana has "a distinct advantage" by being "priority gank bait"? :S

Or do you mean they have a distinct advantage where they can just bless that item? Sorta like the advantage people with Cinctures have over people who do not?

 

[Harlequin]

So the guy carrying the vanq katana has "a distinct advantage" by being "priority gank bait"? :S

Or do you mean they have a distinct advantage where they can just bless that item? Sorta like the advantage people with Cinctures have over people who do not?

Apologies for not being clear:

One who runs around with an unblessed vanq katana = gank bait

One who runs after mr bait armed with his own blessed vanq katana = distinct advantage. Coz he has no fear of losing it.

Edit: Oh, did the voices tell you that they talk to me too? It's the will of the jellyfish.

 

[Canucklehead73]

Well I agree and disagree with Hawkeye.

I agree that the game has been altered by the hunt for items, and there are alot of players who refuse to do ANYTHING in UO if they will not "get" something at the end of the outing. Item hording care bears exist, but I just ignore them and find other players to hunt and chat with.

But in all honesty Hawkeye... For the new player who cannot play or compete, they kinda have to fixate on gaining "some" sort of equipment to get going. I know I did. But I have a decent set of armor and now those days are over for me... I just play.

I strongly disagree that insurance has much meaning in this context. I mean how many posts do we read that state the game would improve dramatically if we lost our equipment, or broke our equipment... I question this argument. I find it absurd to think on any given night of UO that losing my gear would have made the evening better in any way.

And how would I venture out with my guild if I had to replace my gear all the time??? That would really add to the socializing aspect eh? "Want to do something?" "Naw I lost all my armor talk to you tomorrow maybe"....

I do agree with several other posters about the social aspect. External chat programs do make UO seem quiet and dead sometimes, but in reality ppl are screaming and laughing at each other in thier chat proggies...

As for the earlier incarnation of UO before Trammel, it was not much different, while re-equipping was easier you had to do it more often, so there was pretty much the same level of focus given to gaining items. In fact I would venture to state it was somewhat worse as the end game level player would often face having to find new gear as well. The need to gain items really never ended before insurance.

Same goes for the social aspect back then... Different dynamics. Winners and losers.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Interesting and good discussion! (Although I never meant this to be turned into another Siege Advertising Thread, hehe.)

Several issues have been mentioned:

Community. What is community? And how did it change?
I don't think the way people technically communicate has anything to do with that. (11 years ago, we had ICQ already.) However, I agree that the lack of newcomers/players has a negative effect on social interaction. But that's a different issue (marketing and a new game client would help there).
My point is, why did people socialize in the Early Days, and why and how are they doing it today? Back when there was no Trammel, people needed to socialize if they wanted to go on adventures, or they'd been easy prey for PKs. (I'm not saying that this was a totally good thing!) Today, everyone can do almost everything by himself. No need to socialize anymore. UO's features have changed and made playing alone A LOT more easy. Today, you can play UO like a single player game. If you like to do that, why join an MMORPG and pay the monthly fee?

Insurance: I think insurance is a good thing, when you're carrying very valuable items around. It even is necessary, because you don't want to lose an item you spent 10 millions on. However, today we insure EVERYTHING and the risk is ZERO. By limiting insurance to maybe 5 items per character, you still could avoid losing very valuable items, but you probably wouldn't equip yourself with only artifacts and overpowered stuff, but mix those with standard equipment. This wouldn't only add an acceptable risk to playing, but it would also add to diversity concerning player equipment. (I already can hear those complaining, who strive for the perfect character, and who are usually demanding a skill cap increase.)

Never forget:
The world isn't black and white.
There doesn't have to be only total risk (Felucca) and care-bear-land (Trammel).
There's no need to decide between abolishing insurance or not.
There doesn't have to be only red and blue.

There are many nuances between the two extremes.

Answer to that statement:
"Really, you just never have seemed happy with how the game is run. From the dreads to the current crop of PCs, you just don't seem capable of being content. Maybe you should quit..... and no we don't know each other, I'm just fairly observant."

The day I decide to quit UO is the day when I find out that things cannot be changed anymore. There is no perfect game. There never will be. And I hope there always will be enough dedicated people to stirr the mud, discuss and bring in fresh ideas (may they be stupid or not). And no, I do not wish back the old days of UO. UO was a horror back then, rampant PKing was ruining the gaming experience of many players. Today, we have the opposite. As I said, the world doesn't have to be black and white.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think we are Simms but I strongly think that any change that has been made to the game can be fixed without reverting back. I think about it alot when I read posts of people wanting a shard for example from a certain part in time. I don't think they fully understand how much they would be giving up for the changes they dislike that have been made to the game.

It's kind of like saying you wish you could put your life on hold the way it is right now, keep your kids the same age, you stay the same age, nobody gets any older and nothing changes. This is one of the reasons I think I prefer to move onward. Maybe i'm alittle afraid of dieing, maybe i'm alittle afraid of losing something but I don't think we will ever be complete unless we finish what we've started and to do this I think we need to move forward.

I agree with all the problems you have mentioned but I think there are ways to bring all of these things back to the way they were without changing the path we've chosen.

For example: If you have normal armour on it could have a base insure. If you wear arties they could cost more. This might help solve some of that problem. Maybe the problem for you is you can't get an item to loot. So, in this case, they could randomly create a spawn that would dupe an item and place it onto a corpse. Maybe the idea of them being able to keep their arties is what bothers you. So, maybe there could be a chance you could lose an artifact.

The community I think has changed because of the Fel aspects of the game and again I agree with you but I think that there are different elements at work. For example: when I started playing, I immediately made friends with people who were about my same skill level. It seemed to be a type of protection as well as a friendship. In some of our first PK encounters I was surprised of the chivalry.

Also, we made friends with more powerful players who seemed to have a sense of community of their own. This I think translated into guilds and also into play style.

We would need to bring this type of scenerio back into the game to restore those feelings. Mainly I think PKs were PKs and Blues were Blues. Now we have hybrid reds and blues that look at each other as counter parts rather than enemies. Reds were unique because they were like a smart spawn. To me, now, they are more like a tool.

I think one way to fix this is to add NPCs, Blue and Red, that are identical to the players. Tamers, Archers, etc...

Another problem, I think, is the gold. My son when he started playing acquired millions and millions of gp. I started finding checks in bags. He had over 32 million in his bank and close to 50 million in his house. When I asked him how he got the money he told me by selling items. So, his whole perspective on the game was to see how much money he could get. It was difficult to explain to him that selling a horse for 20 million gold was the same thing as stealing because he fealt as long as they would buy it, he had the right to the money.

So, I think community has lost many things that are important but I am sure we could come up with counter measures rather than looking at the design as a loss.

Besides, community will always remain with me.

 

[Warpig Inc]

Be a bit rough for the code mages to limit the number of insured items. I put in the ideal of four PBDs per character and then remove insurance from the game. Better yet is not PBD but PIDs (4 Insurance Deeds) Anything to get rid of the cookie cutter suits. Most of those with the perfect resist max capped suits today have Val Hammer made parts (the crafter to ashamed to put there name to).

I was one of those characters trusted at the forge for repairs. Ran a vendor house of needful things of long ago. Still could have that tip repair world. Just pass blank scrolls with the tip. Limit on those things insured would take off that god tint a bit. I still have a vendor house and with the duped runics flood I only look at jewels mostly as loot. With the flood of runics once Imbueding comes out that will be mute.

Maybe they can research that vannishing fishing pole bug. At a random rare time when the pole comes off you paperdoll it is just gone. Add that bug to all items in the game, LOL.

 

[Vyal]

Why play Ultima to roleplay?

There are much better games out for that type of thing.
UO needs to be put in the trash can. The community? What community?
So you have a 7 year old house in UO? Who cares?
I know I don't. It's a game and nothing more then a 2d Nintendo game at that.


The devs don't care about your concerns or your ideas and thoughts, they just want you to play into the stupid game so they can steal your money. While the devs that do care about community all sit on free shards and don't care about jacking you for what 14 bucks every month.

I look at you all and it's true your all like a cult. TOTALLY numb to the fact that there are free UO shards and 100x BETTER MMO's out there.

Bend over ya'll the end of the month is coming fast and EA wants to stick it to you again.

 

[Dor of Sonoma]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

I think that your assessment is rather accurate.

 

[Duskofdead]

A statement:

"After the release of Age of Shadows, item insurance was introduced. Death lost significance. Powerful items were brought into the game, and now they could actually be used without risk. This established a large entry barrier for players who wanted to PvP. The gameplay changed. Instead of socializing, people began to focus on searching for better items.
While during the Early Days, UO was dominated by PK griefers, today it is dominated by item-hoarding "care bears". Social interaction between players is mostly limited to item gathering and item exchange. UO has become more like Sims and less of an RPG."

What do you think?

Yes. UO is now a Blizzard game, without the massive wealth and subscription size. It's a bit pathetic, actually. The game design has been totally slutted out to emulate World of Warcraft or D2 and there was no paydirt for it, no big rush of players. Just a bunch of us wondering why we are paying to do exactly the same never-ending gearfarming that we could do in a vastly more modern or even free game.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Yes. UO is now a Blizzard game, without the massive wealth and subscription size. It's a bit pathetic, actually. The game design has been totally slutted out to emulate World of Warcraft or D2 and there was no paydirt for it, no big rush of players. Just a bunch of us wondering why we are paying to do exactly the same never-ending gearfarming that we could do in a vastly more modern or even free game.

That's a rather extreme statement. I'd still prefer UO over many other MMORPGs or free shards out there. Which doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement. Wishing to improve that game doesn't automatically imply that I hate it.

The world isn't only black and white.

 

[Duskofdead]

That's a rather extreme statement. I'd still prefer UO over many other MMORPGs or free shards out there. Which doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement. Wishing to improve that game doesn't automatically imply that I hate it.

The world isn't only black and white.

Room for improvement =/= copying a competitor that I could go play if I wanted to.

I've had to state that multiple times... people always defend the AoS changes with some vague copout like "well it's evolve or die" or "there was room for improvement"....

I don't know why this slips past people, ANY CHANGE WHATSOEVER =/= improvement. And I think in UO's case, it's a slower learner than most games out there when it comes to dropping what doesn't work.

If anything, it's almost like the more people complain about something, the more EA is dedicated to keeping it or building on it or leaving it in.

 

[Maplestone]

If anything, it's almost like the more people complain about something, the more EA is dedicated to keeping it or building on it or leaving it in.

Is it really so hard to notice that many of us are generally very happy about the direction the game has been going in and have no interest in turning back the clock?

 

[Bc-]

Bang on, AoS was a major blow to the community as well. If you don't have a runic kit or a runic hammer, you are out in terms of economy.

A classic shard would help to revive that vibrant UO community we all know and love..

 

[pacific lily]

Have you given any thought to the difference in who owns computers now and who owned them 10 years ago?

I mean at some point not too long ago, it was just us nerds that had computers and played online games. The community here was a subset of a larger offline community. Once everybody had a computer and "everybody" was playing online games... well, that's when I saw the community spirit leave this game.

This is happening in many other areas of online life... I've noticed this quite a bit in the last 5-7 years.

lily

 

[Anon McDougle]

again i will point out its not items that make good PVPers its macro managment. you could give me every leet toy in game and toss me into a room with a naked experianced PVPer and i would be dead in 12 seconds

 

[phantus]

*yawns*

What I think is the only problem this game has had is the loss of team after team and development being dropped by producer after producer because the parent company had no idea what to do with this model of gaming. There is nothing wrong with item based gaming. Items(or lack thereof) do not make gaming people do. You can try and put the blame on the items and AoS all you like but the game lost the spirit because people became bored with it.