You "2D People" are holding UO back

[donjn]

There, I said it.

I am getting tired of it. And I am not talking so much about the interface as I am the graphics. I just don't understand people. How can nostalgia be this powerful? Nostalgia is a great thing but at it's higher levels it gets in the way of progress. For most practical people, nostalgia lasts about 20 minutes. I used to do this. Every now and then I would get really excited and pop in Ultima III and after about 15 minutes I just can't do it. It makes me sad, because those are classics, but it is hard waiting for disks to load, etc.

Anytime something new comes out, people hate it. Windows 95, 98, XP, and now Vista. Now people think XP is great. They did not think that when it was first released. But at least enough of the populace gave it a fair shot and it eventually it held up. Yes I have Vista and it works fine.'

And yes I play Ultima Online KR 3D. Why? Because there are some seriously good macro options, the graphics don't look like they are from 10 years ago, I can play fullscreen on my widescreen monitor and have a very large playfield with windows to mix and match. Yes there are some bugs and there are some bugs in 2D as well. But anyone who tells me the artwork is better in 2D is delusional. Yes I know KR has it's bugs but my goodness, 2D runs in 800 x 600. I have a 22" monitor. There is no way I am going to squint my eyes to play this game. And fullscreen has stretching unless you want to enable scaling which screws up other games.

It is fear.

We all want to hold on to something familiar. It is a fatal flaw in the human spirit. Anything different and we panic.

It is you people, who may or may not own Pentium III 800 computers that are holding this game back.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Fear? God no. It's the fact that all of the 3d engines provided for UO to date have absolutely sucked...la

 

[donjn]

Fear? God no. It's the fact that all of the 3d engines provided for UO to date have absolutely sucked...la

KR is much better than Lord Blackthorn's Revenge.

 

[Gellor]

For me, it has nothing to do with fear.

It has to do with the garbage OSI tries to jam down our throats.

I've tried all the clients OSI has put out and not a single one was more visually appealing than the "old" 2d client.

What holds back the game more is the pixel crack whiners and people exploiting bugs. Instead of being able to devote a TON of time toward making a good client, OSI is forced to waste man hours trying to figure out "what crack can we throw in to shut those people up".

 

[Hemisphere]

KR is much better than Lord Blackthorn's Revenge.

The trouble for me (with KR) is that the graphics stink.

It's a soul-less, outsourced mess, with no care or attention to detail, created on a tight budget, for a tight deadline, and it shows.

 

[^Wolfie^]

KR is a liquid, blurry mess. There I said it.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

It didn't take much to make it better. It still doesn't change the fact that all of the 3d attempts thus far have failed on the majority of the current players. UO is and always has been about content...not pretty graphics. It's not like those of us playing 2d are preventing the developers to actually provide a 3d graphics package that would convert us. That is all on them.

I do laugh at the idea that somehow we are holding the game back by prefering the 2d system though. Again, nothing about us playing is keeping the current development team from coming up with graphics a that might actually impress the average online gamer...la

 

[sablestorm]

KR is much better than Lord Blackthorn's Revenge.

I beg to differ. In general, I prefer the 2d art to the KR art, though there are a few exceptions. Nevertheless, when you factor in that 2d runs better than KR and we're all plenty more comfortable with it....

It might be holding UO back for YOU, but get real buddy. You're the exception to the rule.

 

[Chad Sexington]

There, I said it.

I am getting tired of it. And I am not talking so much about the interface as I am the graphics. I just don't understand people. How can nostalgia be this powerful? Nostalgia is a great thing but at it's higher levels it gets in the way of progress. For most practical people, nostalgia lasts about 20 minutes. I used to do this. Every now and then I would get really excited and pop in Ultima III and after about 15 minutes I just can't do it. It makes me sad, because those are classics, but it is hard waiting for disks to load, etc.

It is fear.

We all want to hold on to something familiar. It is a fatal flaw in the human spirit. Anything different and we panic.

It is you people, who may or may not own Pentium III 800 computers that are holding this game back.

Put make-up on a pig and it's still a pig.

Be happy with what it is, don't pretend it's something it's not, and ride it out until the end.

Some people are fooling themselves that any amount of graphics will lure any significant amount of people to play an eleven year old game.

Stop pointing fingers and play the game.

 

[Aboo]

I own an very good AND fairly new computer and I still play 2D. Why? Because KR stinks! It's tedious to use, the graphics are not all that great and I personally LIKE 2D. You are entitled to your opinion but so are us 2D players. Get over it.

 

[FrejaSP]

It's passion, we just love UO.

3D was not UO IMO, KR tryed but the client was to bugged.

I look forward to see the SA client, hope they will success it this time.

I hope for a new client, that still feels like UO. I hope it will be what KR failed, a client with hotbars, global chat, tell, guild, alliance, party and customized chat rooms.

 

[donjn]

Let's throw graphics out the window because we are not going to agree. All I can say is that I appreciate "good art" and I know it when I see it. World of Warcraft is a great example of good art. The polygon count is low, but Blizzard has some amazing artists. As a fellow artist and graphic designer myself, I no doubt feel KR has better art than 2D. But we wont agree on that so lets move to the interface...

So, none of the expanded macro options, hotkeys, bigger playfield and the some of these great mods appeal to you?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

So, none of the expanded macro options, hotkeys, bigger playfield and the some of these great mods appeal to you?

UOA ftw...la

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

KR is to 2D what a windows update is to a working computer.

 

[Slayvite]

If i wanted to play a 3D MMORPG i would have left UO a few years ago......
.....Oh wait, i did!

Yup, I returned as there are no rpg's with the same feel as UO 2D.

UO KR is just god awful with depressing brown/grey colours.

You just cant beat UO 2D which is why so many of us still play it, nothing to do with old machines or rubbish connection.

 

[Nine Dark Moons]

i have a very new, very fast gaming rig, and i still use 2D because to me, that is UO. KR = bleck. i should also mention my new computer came with vista and after a week of pancakes about it i got used to it and actually love it now. no matter how many times i look at KR i do not get used to it or like it.

ps - i'd be fine if they added hotbars and decent macro options to 2D. and a bigger playing field would be great too, since a lot of us have wide screen monitors now. as long as they don't change my graphics or my paperdoll i'll be good.

 

[Crysta]

Sad thing is 2D really is holding KR back. Making KR work any better would require changing the server code in a way that would mess with how 2D works... they even said as much... remember that patch a few months after KR launch that made movement all odd in 2D? That was them trying to make KR run better. And it did until they changed it back.

 

[Hemisphere]

Let's throw graphics out the window because we are not going to agree. All I can say is that I appreciate "good art" and I know it when I see it. World of Warcraft is a great example of good art. The polygon count is low, but Blizzard has some amazing artists. As a fellow artist and graphic designer myself, I no doubt feel KR has better art than 2D. But we wont agree on that so lets move to the interface...

So, none of the expanded macro options, hotkeys, bigger playfield and the some of these great mods appeal to you?

You're an artist and graphic designer and you feel that KR is better, artistically, than 2D? Seriously?

It is (arguably) more technically advanced - or at the very least it uses modern techniques. It has high resolution, particle effects, and various other flashy things which the 2D client cannot do, but artistically? It's a mess. A dog of a mess of a shambles of a client - artistically.

 

[Crysta]

It IS better artistically. Problem is, artistically doesn't work for a fixed view computer game that relies on being able to make out pixel-level details.

 

[kelmo]

I liked the old 3d version. It was not so different from the 2d version. We kind of flew under the radar and got made fun of a bit by some of the 2d players but it was nice... I miss it.

 

[donjn]

You guys often say that nothing "feels' like UO.

What do you mean by this? I am 38 years old and I have played every Ultima back to Ultima I. When I first saw Ultima VI with all those icons I never doubted it was an Ultima. Sure it looked different. And yes, Ultima VIII and IX (gulp) are Ultima's too. They just look different.

KR looks different. Of course it does not feel like Ultima Online.

Want to know why?

Because we have been using that interface for 10 years, that's why. 10 years. Nothing is going to "feel" like Ultima Online after 10 years.

 

[Hemisphere]

It IS better artistically. Problem is, artistically doesn't work for a fixed view computer game that relies on being able to make out pixel-level details.

What do you mean by "artistically doesn't work"?

An artist has to work with the tools available to them, and keeping in mind the end use for what they're creating.

If you're making graphics for a game, and you know that the characters are going to be viewed at a fixed angle, at a fixed size (and a very small size at that), then you must design these characters accordingly, and in the case of UO, that means ensuring that details *can* be identified on the pixel level.

It doesn't matter if the characters are designed by the finest 3D modellers in the business, with exquisite details and high resolution textures, because what the players see, and what the players care about (as far as art is concerned), is the final, low resolution, technically limited gameplay - not a high resolution render.

 

[FrejaSP]

I liked the old 3d version. It was not so different from the 2d version. We kind of flew under the radar and got made fun of a bit by some of the 2d players but it was nice... I miss it.

Maybe you did like to look like Popeye but I hated to look like Olivia

 

[kelmo]

Maybe you did like to look like Popeye but I hated to look like Olivia

*chuckles* I never was hung up on the paper doll thing...

 

[Aboo]

. . . So, none of the expanded macro options, hotkeys, bigger playfield and the some of these great mods appeal to you?

Simple answer, no.

 

[Dragonchilde]

I don't use 2D for nostalgia; although I'll admit it is nostalgic. I use it because I ran at a snail's pace, with jerky, chunky movements, laggy movement, to where the simple act of rearranging my backpack was a major drag. (literally and figuratively.)

I switched to 2D - and move like greased lightning.

I can run Dark Age of Camelot on this computer with little trouble.

Dark Age graphics engine is far superior to anything UO has ever churned out... don't tell me it's because my computer sucks (it does, but why can it run DAoC with no trouble, but can't handle ancient KR? - Because KR is crap.)

I think KR has some great features. They just need to be able to implement them in a way that doesn't make my computer screech to to a grinding halt every time I load the client before I'll switch permanently.

 

[o2bavr6]

Fear? God no. It's the fact that all of the 3d engines provided for UO to date have absolutely sucked...la

Wow... Ouch.. give me a sec here, I have to get up off the floor.

There we go all set; now where was I.

Oh yes... Mark this day on your calendar. I agree with Rico.

I guess there is a first time for everything

 

[MedeaDF]

It is fear.

No, it's the original UO style.

Classic.
Simple.
Noble.
The bestest.

There, I said it

 

[ColterDC]

So, none of the expanded macro options, hotkeys, bigger playfield and the some of these great mods appeal to you?

Ever try playing a PvP mage in KR??

 

[Chad Sexington]

You guys often say that nothing "feels' like UO.

What do you mean by this? I am 38 years old and I have played every Ultima back to Ultima I. When I first saw Ultima VI with all those icons I never doubted it was an Ultima. Sure it looked different. And yes, Ultima VIII and IX (gulp) are Ultima's too. They just look different.

KR looks different. Of course it does not feel like Ultima Online.

Want to know why?

Because we have been using that interface for 10 years, that's why. 10 years. Nothing is going to "feel" like Ultima Online after 10 years.

If nothing will ever "feel" like UO, then stop reaching for a face-lift. If you don't, then you'll not only have a product that feels nothing like it should, but you'll alienate everyone in the process.

I'd rather have all the KR guys rallying for UO2 than some face-lift. Fix the game from the ground up. Don't fix it with a patch-work job.

 

[Crysta]

What do you mean by "artistically doesn't work"?

I'm not referring to size so much as style. They did their best to follow all of the proper standards of artistic design and flow.The blurry edges, the consistant coloring, the minimap that was originally designed to resemble a real map, and trying to make all of the boxes and menus follow a standard theme.

Games that require fine details need defined borders and differentiation in coloring so that stuff isn't completely lost.. obviously they were trying to get rid of the garish "neon factor" but they went a bit too far.. and the map couldn't beat the super-detailed one we already had. As for the menus... this game is always active, 24/7... you need to have plenty of differentiation on such things so you can tell exactly what you're looking at at a glance.

Furthermore, the higher quality music they shoehorned in from the (happily) failed UX:O just doesn't fit with the feel of the game. And the sheer number of animation frames for every single creature in the game can do nothing but slow everything down; very few video cards can handle caching quite that much.. they probably would have done better leaving everything as actual 3D models if they wanted all of the movements so painstakingly detailed (and I mean movements.. not details on the models themselves.. I agree the human ones suck).

I want to add that they shouldn't have made the animations so fluid for a game with naturally jerky movement, but they were planning to have that fixed until all the 2D people complained (rightfully so, but still).

 

[Lord Patapon]

The sad thing is the way your started your thread, my friend.
(this is just an observation.)

At the end of the previous 3d client, which had horrible graphics compared to KR (which is done with a set of colors I like a lot), but at the end, you could "move" without the jelly impression, combat was as smooth as 2d ... all in all, it had the reactivity the client 2d has (or something that approach it closely, even if the "real" feeling of UO 2d wasn't there)

Please take in consideration that, in fact, most people these days don't have a Pentium 4 anymore, so I guess it's just that ... well ... people have opinions about what they pay to play.
And sorry, but even 2 or 3 months after the release, I wouldn't have paid a single dollar to play a UO "KR version only".

Honestly, I know a lot of people feel just like I do about all this: they WANT UO to get more bright to the eye, and everybody knows it'll bring in some fresh blood.
Everyone wants that.
But this shouldn't come with the vast majority of the player base having to sacrifice something as huge as the pleasure they take out of their favorite client.
This is ... nuts.

Anyway, they've got a lot of work on their hands, and I think they won't release it too soon this time; will they get it right ? That's another question, and the answers are in their hands too, but if they succeed in making this client as close to the 2d client WITH graphics revamp and a new UI that can be satisfying for new players and those who likes the "hotbar" style, then you'll see a lot more ppl to support it.

When people brag about something, it's sometimes pointless ... but some other times, there's solid reasons behind it.

I'd like to see stats of who uses KR and who uses 2D, though.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

For me...
Movement locks when changing direction fast. (reported in beta)
Items in grid view flicker in/out of visibility, including paperdoll. (reported in beta)
Character runs on the spot when coming out of animal form. (reported in beta)
Movement in animal form is not consistant. (makes it very hard to tell if you're stealthing or revealed)

No mouse wheel targeting. (equates to no PvP for me & most - casters at least)
No macro for always run. (required for stealthers & getting off boats)
No macro for toggle circle trans. (personal preference)
No option to disable the new targeting system. (majority PvP preference - casters at least)

Hotbars. (what is the purpose of hotbars over macros?)
Graphics/item manipulation. (not as clear/easy as 2D)
Macros no longer as simple. (spell/skill, wait for target, self/last)
Skins. (seem to be required - I'm not that interested in setting UO up I just want to play it)

... fair enough some of these, like macros, there are proabably just other ways of doing it now, that may even be easier but I don't see why I should spend my time finding out when I can already do it all in 2D. I've discussed the movement/grid view problems with people who are more into KR and they found no reason for it or way to solve it, skins were suggested but that didn't work.

When KR was released wasn't it supposed to be easier to update? Every KR patch has been huge. Unless they meant easier for them to update... hm... yeah probbaly.

 

[DPudding]

KR isn't an alternative to 2d. SA might be....if it's the 2d interface with new graphics. But it aint gonna be. So....2d is still the only option.

 

[Lord Drakelord]

KR is a liquid, blurry mess. There I said it.

I so agree Wolfie, ever time I tried KR I would get ill looking at the screen, it was like being on the high seas and getting seasick, I would have a headache in 10 minutes. There was also the learning a new interface, another BIG pain in the rear, after being so used to 2d and UOA and UOAM they wanted me to relearn a game I been playing since April of 99.

For 2 months we tried as they loaded patch after patch and still could not get pass that liquid, blurry mess you so pointed out. One day I look at the wife and ask her if she wanted to do the KR any more and her reply was its death on all of our PCs, so we have 2d only now, and if we have to use any disks to restall we use the 9th anniv CDs we got.

If the SA comes out in a box set they better be sure to put in a 2d CD version in it.

 

[Endrik]

The trouble for me (with KR) is that the graphics stink.

It's a soul-less, outsourced mess, with no care or attention to detail, created on a tight budget, for a tight deadline, and it shows.

KR is a liquid, blurry mess. There I said it.

I could not have said it better myself. It has nothing to do with "fear", lol. It has EVERYTHING to do with wanting to play a client that is reliable, and visually appealing. And KR is neither of those things. I am all for the progression, longevity, and evolution of UO, just so long as it is both functionally and aesthetically playable. I really cant believe that anybody finds KR more visually appealing then 2d. Sure, there are parts that look "newer",and some of the effects are more "dazzling" but overall it is just plain ugly. In 2d I can tell what things are, and where they are. Not only did KR screw the pooch when it comes to scale and color on over 75% of the items, but on quality as well.

It looks like the "art" was done as a half @$$ attempt at an extra credit assignment by some stoned college interns who had been showing up drunk and sleeping through class for the past 7 years they have been working on their associates degree.

Ill admit that I do like some of the landscape and a few of the monsters a little better. But there is no way your going to get me to PAY to play a client that is so fugly. And dont even get me started on the pile of vomit that is supposed to be a map.

Now im sorry if that was a little harsh, and I dont mean to insult to the designers, Im sure they had a tight budget and a short time limit. And yes, KR absolutely has some functions that are very nice and useful, as long as the client stays up and running long enough for you to take advantage of them. But even the extra functionality does not make up for the terrible graphics.

If you payed for dinner at a restaurant and the waiter brought you a steaming pile of dog poo, you would not say "Hey, the cook was on a tight budget and timeline, and look at the added functionality of the spork the gave me to eat with... lets dig in! ... Man this is sooooo much better then the burger I could be eating!"

 

[Tycolby]

Us 2d people are also paying the majority of the subscriptions too. So with that said the ppl have spoken and the devs listened, so move on to a more flashy game but you cant can you? You are just like the rest of us Pixel crack addicts. You just want your pixels prettier than everyone else.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

bushwa! In KR:

1. my horse moonwalks, 2D is more movement-realistic.
2. colors of certain paragon chests is STILL incorrect as compared to 2D ... Valorite for example has green shading and looks like bile-laden vomit compared to the crisp bluish tint of 2D
3. the UI stinks, is kludgy and not at all intuitive as compared to 2D.
4. the ability of the macroing still need to rival that of UOA. UOA was a 1-time payment, yet KR users pay month after month for this ability?
5. there are disproportionate sizes of foe as compared to the Elf or Human model. Not in 2D. Not in many of the 3D games out there. Hell, the DAoC of 5 years ago was a better product graphically than KR of today.
6. Blurry, fuzzed graphics make my eyes hurt. There was a great thread here that outlined how a simple tweak would correct that and yet it has not been done.

KR does not run properly on all systems that handle 2D quite well. My old system (4 years old at the time of release) was one of those - even after the optimization patch. Graphics and performance glitches still exist that disallow many from trying the client with satisfactory results.

I say it is EA that is holding UO back by not producing efficient, usable, friendly products that are backward compatible with the systems that many use for 2D.

There, I said it ... and I'm sticking to it ... until I change my mind! <shrug>

 

[Lynk]

KR won't be taken seriously by PvPers until you can set target self / last target to mouse wheel.

 

[donjn]

Upon re-reading my original post, perhaps I was too harsh.

In the end, we all want the same thing. And blaming people who love 2D won't get us anywhere.

 

[ElRay]

KR is much better than Lord Blackthorn's Revenge.

Which still isnt really saying much. They both are mediocre graphically.

 

[ColterDC]

That's very big of you to say.

I think everyone was excited for an updated client when KR was announced. Hell I had the initial KR screen shots set as my desktops for several months.

Unfortunately though, KR was obviously a rush job and for many of the reasons people have listed in the last year, it did not live up to most of our expectations.

 

[donjn]

Which still isnt really saying much. They both are mediocre graphically.

You can argue artistic with me. But graphically, LBR is no where in the ballpark of KR. LBR had a brutal pixel count and zoomed in, everything looked terrible. Come on now!

 

[4th3ist]

I beg to differ. In general, I prefer the 2d art to the KR art, though there are a few exceptions. Nevertheless, when you factor in that 2d runs better than KR and we're all plenty more comfortable with it....

It might be holding UO back for YOU, but get real buddy. You're the exception to the rule.

Runs better? I am MUCH quicker then anyone on 2d I have met. Period. KR runs twice as fast. Upgrade you're computer.

 

[Hemisphere]

In the end, we all want the same thing.

The trouble is that's not even remotely true we all want something completely different - our own vision of a perfect online game. Everyone has to compromise, and that compromise must be in the favour of the majority.

I personally think it's a waste of time trying to revamp UO to "modern" standards, because no amount of revamping is going to bring any serious influx of NEW players, and nothing less than a client which is developed with the budget of a brand new game, and designed strictly with existing players in mind (rather than trying to lure players from other games like EQ or WoW), is going to be good enough for the majority of the playerbase to want to switch, but UO just doesn't have that sort of budget available to it.

 

[donjn]

The trouble is that's not even remotely true we all want something completely different - our own vision of a perfect online game. Everyone has to compromise, and that compromise must be in the favour of the majority.

I personally think it's a waste of time trying to revamp UO to "modern" standards, because no amount of revamping is going to bring any serious influx of NEW players, and nothing less than a client which is developed with the budget of a brand new game, and designed strictly with existing players in mind (rather than trying to lure players from other games like EQ or WoW), is going to be good enough for the majority of the playerbase to want to switch, but UO just doesn't have that sort of budget available to it.

We all want UO to succeed. I think we can all agree on that. That's what I meant.

 

[4th3ist]

Ever try playing a PvP mage in KR??

I do with great success. I get the feeling many of you are just jumping on the bandwagon. What is so restrictive about the 3D client that makes you not be able to PvP as a mage? If anything, it should be streamlining you're spell casting by a ton.

 

[4th3ist]

KR is to 2D what a windows update is to a working computer.

Windows update is an imperative feature to a working computer. I'm not sure what the hell you mean. Do you know anything about operating and maintaining a computer, or even a network for that matter?

 

[4th3ist]

Put make-up on a pig and it's still a pig.

Be happy with what it is, don't pretend it's something it's not, and ride it out until the end.

Some people are fooling themselves that any amount of graphics will lure any significant amount of people to play an eleven year old game.

Stop pointing fingers and play the game.

Example: Runescape.. 11 million players worldwide. VERY similar to UO from what I hear. Never played it a day in my life. It is browser based. However, they went from 2d to "KR Style" 3D and were very successful and probably got a lot of new folks from the upgrade.

 

[Black Sun]

When I play KR I feel like someone has rubbed Vaseline on my screen. It's visually un-appealing, and plays just as bad.

Bottom line is that they rushed and half assed the client. MAYBE the SA client will fix that, but I doubt it.

As for those who cry that 3D is necessary for the future of UO I present the following:

This-


still won't bring as many new gamers as this-


based on pretty graphics alone.

UO's main asset is it's game play and depth. NOT the eye candy.