Punkbuster Yes or No?

[Turdnugget]

Only other online game I've played was, EQ and Lineage II on a free server and Tribes/Counterstrike.

I'm a casual UO player, I don't have time for other games. Only thing i'd really play if not UO, 1st person shooter or NCAA 2009 Football.

 

[Nexus]

I voted YES, and I'm surprised at how many of you have no idea of how Punkbuster actually works...It doesn't scan your entire hard drive looking for programs, it looks for signatures in your system memory (RAM) that illegal programs they have a profile on have there while running.


Your personal files like where you hid the picture of Ms. Playmate December 1974 so your wife doesn't see it are perfectly safe.


And if your worried about having your system memory scanned then by all means get off the internet....Your ISP does it....I promise.

 

[Maplestone]

It doesn't scan your entire hard drive looking for programs, it looks for signatures in your system memory (RAM) that illegal programs they have a profile on have there while running.

That's assuming that no functionality hides behind an NDA. Also, to be pedantic, it does scan the hard drive for changes to game files and system libraries.

I wonder what would happens if someone runs around on a trial account spamming one such signature string so it appeared in everyone's journals (and thus their RAM)? Or if they posted one on U.Hall?

But paranoia and exploits/griefing aside, what rubs me the wrong way about any system like this is that it's my computer - mine. It should not be programmed to spy on me for someone else's behalf. I doubt I would quit over it, but it does cross a line I'm not entirely comfortable with.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

what rubs me the wrong way about any system like this is that it's my computer - mine.

Someone doesn't read EULAs...especially Microsoft ones.

 

[Maplestone]

Someone doesn't read EULAs...especially Microsoft ones.

If it wasn't for UO I probably wouldn't have any Microsoft software in the house, but yes, I am fighting a battle I've already pretty much lost.


(sometimes I'm the argument, sometimes I'm the straw man)

 

[Raina]

PunkBuster in UO means no UO for me.
I'd be ok with more client-side checks (though personally I think they're a waste of time - the client is in the hands of the enemy, and it is a question of when somebody will get around the checks, not if), but I'm not ok with the PB ToS (especially when the company defends their overly broad ToS by effectively saying that they would be ok with violating their privacy statement in the future if it meant a chance for better cheat detection).

Exactly!

Not to mention the Security Issues it raises.

~Rai

 

[Wenchkin]

Punkbuster wouldn't fix the problem, folks were openly bragging that they knew workarounds as soon as the damn thing was mentioned. Which is why I'm amazed that there are still PB fans who like to think they've got our problems all solved.

And as a linux user, I'd be out of UO altogether if PB came in, as it's not what you'd call compatible with wine. If it needed root user access it certainly wouldn't be getting to play lol.

Wenchy

 

[Wenchkin]

If it wasn't for UO I probably wouldn't have any Microsoft software in the house, but yes, I am fighting a battle I've already pretty much lost.


(sometimes I'm the argument, sometimes I'm the straw man)

*cough* Linux works with UO *cough*

Wenchy

 

[Gheed]

This time around I have changed my mind and answered yes. I remember the last PB discussion many moons ago. I shared many of the same fears I read from the nay-sayers in this thread.

But since then I have taken a new job with a company that specializes in managed IT services. We manage hundreds of companies... many financial institutions. With this responsibility we must maintain strict compliance to several security certifications. Without which most of our clients could not do business with us. All of our engineers (including myself) put security as our #1 priority when building a network or maintaining it.

Point is we allow banks to be banks. We allow police departments to be police departments... insurance companies to be insurance companies... etc. etc. These institutions would expend exponentially more cash employing personnel to maintain their networks. And those personnel would sit idle most of the time. However we are focused on that tiny but critical part of their business at a fraction of the cost to do it themselves.

I used to think game mechanics were the best way to stop cheating. I still think it helps considerably. But If every dev has to factor "how is this going to be abused" logic into their ideas, then the "cost" associated with stopping cheating rises dramatically and honest play suffers a watered down version of the original. BoS and resource gathering are good examples.

Punkbuster (though I dislike the name... sounds vengeful) allows the devs to be devs and would be a fraction of the cost of doing it in house. Since PB focuses on cheats, all of those thousands of people out there trying to hack it will only strengthen the company as they find new ways to counter said attacks. They have no choice to but to stay ahead of the curve if they mean to stay in business. And they have been in business for some time now.

NO - changing the name of a process does not disguise it. There is very little in a name. If Bill walks up to you and spits in your face, he isn't going to get away with it the next day because he changed his name to Fred.

NO - Your computer is not your computer if it is plugged in to the net. To quote the late great General Patton:

“Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.”

Entrenching your PC in in the latest AV, fortifying it with battlements from the finest firewall is an illusion of security to the hacker amped Zealot. Tighter security only makes him/her more... curious. Yes PB for some is an illusion as well. But it keeps out the would-be thieves and we the players will be the mobile divisions hell bent on destroying the mega bott farm economy nuking enemy in glorious battle. Anyone notice a few burning buildings while out and about? We will be watching...

NO - PB won't be out-hacked in a day and expect to have a long stay in our game. Many here and on other boards have been so fed up with cheating and have been driven so furious, they will keep a close eye on the new Sherriff in town. PR > PB... Again we will be watching...

NO - they are not going to steal your data. One well publicized incident and the company will lose its client base. If the system is set up to stay in business, employees will have a clean criminal record. Low level grunts won't have access to any of the more sensitive tools. The system will be mostly automated only reporting infractions to the client that employs them, allowing them the final decision on the ban.

All folks in IT realize that a single infraction of ill intent will pretty much end their career in any IT or security based field. No matter what you think you have on your PC that is valuable, it probably isn't enough to supplement an entire life of income. If it is, and you are playing video games on it, browsing these forums, then you are the weakest link....goodbye.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Very good point.

Look at it like this...if you trust EA with your CC#, why would you not trust PB to scan the memory (not your storage) on your PC? If you are a paranoid conspiracy theorist, the internet is the absolute worst place for you to be. Did you know that an admin here at Stratics can determine the city that you are posting from, who your ISP is, and what browser your are using at the click of a button??

My argument against PB is not security...that's just silliness. My argument is that it won't work, as it doesn't work on many of the other games I have played that use it...including a few EA games.

I am not sure what the associated cost with PB is to EA for UO considering PB already works with other EA games...but I am certain it is not free. With this said, I would rather see EA put the money into development for UO, and find a better way to deal with cheaters...like getting some GMs or Assistant GM volunteers that actually care, and actually do something about cheaters.

 

[Viper09]

Great post Gheed

 

[deadite]

I already have Punkbuster running on my system (Quake Live FTW!), so I say bring it on! UO needs it badly.

Everyone concerned with "privacy issues" are either overreacting or have something to hide. There are more important things for you to be concerned about than EA snooping through your bank account or your fetish porn.

 

[ElRay]

Punkbuster wouldn't fix the problem, folks were openly bragging that they knew workarounds as soon as the damn thing was mentioned. Which is why I'm amazed that there are still PB fans who like to think they've got our problems all solved.

Yes and im the Queen of England who has been on the moon while eating crumpets and drinking tea in my space suit. Since I said it, it must be true!!
Folks can brag all they want, doesnt mean they will be able to.

And as a linux user, I'd be out of UO altogether if PB came in, as it's not what you'd call compatible with wine. If it needed root user access it certainly wouldn't be getting to play lol.

Time to become a majority then.

 

[ElRay]

Not to mention the Security Issues it raises.

Such as?

 

[Ender]

I already have Punkbuster running on my system (Quake Live FTW!), so I say bring it on! UO needs it badly.

Everyone concerned with "privacy issues" are either overreacting or have something to hide. There are more important things for you to be concerned about than EA snooping through your bank account or your fetish porn.

Well it's a good thing that it doesn't snoop through things like that anyway.

 

[Ifful]

Simple question Punkbuster Yes or No?

In my opinion more people would come back than leave, and I believe WAR has Punkbuster integrated so there is definitely expertise to do it within Mythic.

No.

Rather than stopping cheaters by blocking their program (which can and always evolve to escape programs like Punkbuster), we need to re-examine why people cheat.

Take Taming: this is a skill that is primariy used to control pets, but can not be gained by controlling pets. No wonder people use scripts to raise a skill if the only way to raise it is to repetitively tame animals that you are not interested in having.

Why would anyone want to "win" at anything by cheating when in doing so, they have only proven to themselves that the only way they can win is by cheating? The truth is that if you provide a game in which people can advance themselves without cheating, they will do so and enjoy it that much more.

In a harmonious society, you don't need police.

 

[Raina]

Not to mention the Security Issues it raises.

Such as?

Well, in my case when I travel I like to take my work laptop with me, usually hotels have Free Wi-Fi and I can hop on UO. However with something like PB a requirement, i simply couldn't have it installed on my laptop due to the inherent nature of what it does, and the lack of realistic privacy policy, and the fact that it's a third party program.

If I have secure, important, client documents on my machine or open while I played UO, it'd just be too much of a risk that a dump of whatever might go somewhere when it shouldn't.

It's defiantly a privacy issue intertwined with security, but security isn't just protecting one's laptop against hotel Wi-Fi *grins* It's the whole package, including / especially knowing what is running on your machine.

So, something like Punkbuster, knowing that the company cares nothing if your privacy, security, or anything else means it's not something that should be run on anything you might not wish to see someday on the internet or in some employee's private collection.

~Rai

 

[Luc of Legends]

First i didnt vote..

Either way i vote doesn't matter its a dead issue. EA/Mythic said no. Yes i want the cheaters and scripters caught but PB is a dead issue.

A little devil's advocate here:

i have a question for you Privacy folks... Have you flown commerical since Sept 11th? HELLO the whole world gets to see the crap er stuff in your carryon.. why do they put the monitors at such a cock-eyed angle? If you have the misfortune of my sister to be...ah shall we say of ample bosom, and your underwire brassiere sets off the dang metal detector and the wand scanner. Guess what you get patted down in front of God and everyone. No privacy there.

What about customs??? EWW! Some strange person gets to open my luggage and see my not so delicates. (holey drawers and socks. J/K)

Sadly privacy is becoming a thing of past.. only place we seem to have privacy is in the loo... unless you have kids. :haha:

If ever watch forensic shows... NO not CSI, Bones, etc.. Real ones.. you'd be freaked at what your computer tells people and you dont even know it.

In an Ep of Forensic Files, The St Louis, MO police with the help of Microsoft and his ISP they tracked this Rapist/Murder to his HOUSE! Needless to say he was arrested, tried (sp), and convicted.

Do we really have anonymity and privacy on the web?

(puts on flame-retardant undies..i know its coming)

Luc

 

[Nexus]

If I have secure, important, client documents on my machine or open while I played UO, it'd just be too much of a risk that a dump of whatever might go somewhere when it shouldn't.

It's defiantly a privacy issue intertwined with security, but security isn't just protecting one's laptop against hotel Wi-Fi *grins* It's the whole package, including / especially knowing what is running on your machine.

So, something like Punkbuster, knowing that the company cares nothing if your privacy, security, or anything else means it's not something that should be run on anything you might not wish to see someday on the internet or in some employee's private collection.

~Rai

Except they do, their program doesn't read the contents of files....it doesn't transmit the content of files, it scans processes in your memory for specific signatures which known cheat programs use. When you start a program your PC assigns it a Process ID number. If your on windows and open your Task Manager an view the Services tab you can see a list of these ID's it's the PID column. If two processes are transfering data back and forth your PC tracks them via those PID's so if Punkbuster is installed, it would be looking for programs by PID talking to the Client's PID by scanning information in Memory. It could care less about what other information is out there just about what's talking to your client.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

If I have secure, important, client documents on my machine or open while I played UO, it'd just be too much of a risk that a dump of whatever might go somewhere when it shouldn't.

That's not really how it works.

It doesn't scan documents...or files on your hard drive. It looks at what programs are running on your machine...not the contents of your drive, or your docs.

For fun, while you are sitting at your PC and out in windows, hit Ctrl-Alt-Del at the same time. It will bring up your task manager...you can see the same things PB sees, basically.

Do you see anything private there?

If they did require PB, just close any other programs that you would not want anyone seeing you run before you launch UO.

Again, it cannot see your documents. It cannot read your passwords. It cannot send anyone any information about you, except what programs and processes you were running when you started UO, while you were running UO, and when you closed UO. That's it.

I don't think PB would actually solve the problems UO has...mostly because the problems UO has are problems that cannot be solved by passive means.

Anyone can write a script program if they know Visual Basic, or several other programming languages. PB, or any other detection program for that matter, cannot disallow you running Visual Basic. Do you know how many apps out there use VB?

Also, there are slight changes that can be made to how 3rd party programs load (I did over simplify it in an earlier post) that can work around something like PB.

Punk Buster would simply not be effective at stopping the hardcore cheaters. It would simply make it difficult for people that wanted to run a simple script or just didn't know that they should use a newer version of whatever they were running.

With that said however, the so-called privacy issue comes off as paranoia...or a smoke screen for cheaters.

Saying "I don't trust Punk Buster...but I gave Electronic Arts my name, address, email address, IP address, and Credit Card number" is rather ... well ...silly.

EA, just like the creators of Punk Buster, has a professional reputation to maintain...and that reputation will make them or break them when it comes to their clients.

If suddenly everyone with a UO account had their CC#s stolen, and it was traced back to UO...would you still keep a CC# on file with EA???

Probably not.

If Punk Buster stole someone's personal info...and it was reported that it happened, no one like EA would ever use them again...and they would go out of business.

Think about it like this...your bank has more information on you than almost anyone. But you trust them with everything you have.

Privacy is not a valid reason to not want Punk Buster...unless you have something to hide.

 

[Maplestone]

Privacy is not a valid reason to not want Punk Buster...unless you have something to hide.

*pauses, rereads this, feels a deep upwelling of sadness*

 

[ElvishArcher]

Morgana my dear... you hit the nail right on the head! Security issues, worst I would see is a little "Spyware" type activity in that PB would have access to direct marketing items. Hmmmm I see player "A" runs Norton's, ZoneAlarm, LavaSoftAdware, Spybot, ICQ, etc etc etc. Now they know exactly who you are by IP which is enough to then SELL that info to marketing companies whom send you all that wonderful unsolicited email marketing those Spyware Removal Software etc! Well even that's a stretch, although I have seen actual email lists that a former employer of mine used to buy... 100k emails direct marketing for like several $100. But truly actual SECURITY isn't compromised as in passwords etc.

Point is and I will bold it and enlarge the text for everyone:

PB has proven NOT to work on many games already...

Way you laid that out Morgana... I do believe I am in love

 

[Radun]

I am not 100 percent clear on what PunkBuster is or what it does all i remember hearing is that it is aimed to stop cheating if i remember correctly if so and if it stops some cheating, makes it harder to cheat, detects illegal 3rd party programs and stops them then i am all for it.

and also invade your privacy while doing all that.
PB is good for shooter type games and things of that sort, where there's many hundreds of player-run servers to play on which can either be PB or non-PB..
If UO were to implement PB, there would not be very much of a decision-making process left for the player... your home shard will either be PB or non-PB... if your shard implements PB and you refuse to use that poor excuse of an app (for any reason, including legitimate non-cheater ones) your options would be limited to 'move to the non-PB shard' (where the concentration of cheaters would be on a steady rise from the date of implementation) or 'leave the game entirely'.

...that's if they even left a non-PB shard as an option... they could give the players the option to go PB or not, but that would basically be a condemnation to the native players of the non-PB shard(s), as taking such an approach would basically be giving the green light to all forms of cheating on the non-PB shard(s).

 

[Radun]

I'd rather see some other things happen first.

Insanely hard systems and mini-games that a casual/average player could work for years, and never get any kind of decent reward, need to be revisited. Casual and even hardcore players give up on enjoying those aspects of the game when they realize that it's virtually impossible to receive the reward through regular gameplay.

Skills that are extremely tedious, boring, or very slow to gain need to be looked at, too. There is nothing worse than trying to immerse yourself in your character's development when the only way to progress your abilities is some mind-numbing, repetetive task that does nothing to enhance your experience and might not even fit with the environment very well. Skills that could be gained from both active training and passive experience could help bring back more adventuring and fun at all levels. Of course, there will always be some skills that just aren't very interesting to master, at least in the way of adventuring. Why not add in some Quests of appropriate difficulty as an additional avenue of Skill Gain? It would certainly add some variety, and might even help break those frustrating "walls" we have all hit at one time or another.

Community Collections... I see lots of requests to improve these. Expand the items that are accepted, revisit point values and reward costs to see if these are balanced when compared to the amount of work/time involved. I think we all would mind those 'useless' loot items much less if they were no longer 'useless'! Make them worth points towards a Community Collection or Spring Cleaning type of Event, and have these things active permanently. Switch up the rewards perodically if need be, but make sure players have a reasonable amount of time to get them first. Let players know well in advance if rewards are due to be cycled out soon.

I brought these points up specifically for a reason. I would love to see Mythic get a handle on cheating - have it be easily detectable, quickly identified, and consistently punished - but at the same time, I would also love to see players have fewer reasons to even think about cheating or simply buying their way through the game. Making character development and skill gain fun again would go along way towards that...why beat a golem while unattended when you could go out and *play the game* with others, having fun and making friends along the way. Bring back adventure, excitement, and creativity to our character's journies to Grandmaster and beyond, regardless of playstyle.

Making collection rewards and other systems' rewards more attainable not only discourages UMing and Scripting, but also Duping of the more desirable rewards. Not to mention it could make all loot worth *something*, and even renew interest in once-popular skills like Fishing and Treasure Hunting. All players could participate, regardless of skill, by gathering common things while playing the game.

Players cheat because there appears to be little risk involved, and high reward...in some cases, rewards that are almost unattainable any other way.

a very good post.

 

[Wenchkin]

Yes and im the Queen of England who has been on the moon while eating crumpets and drinking tea in my space suit. Since I said it, it must be true!!
Folks can brag all they want, doesnt mean they will be able to.

And the same can be said for those who seem intent on claiming Punkbuster would actually work. It wasn't tested on UO and certainly didn't hit production shards, so you can't claim the braggers were unable to break PB - they didn't get a chance. Your argument is based on what you think those players are capable of. Of course I can't say for certain that it wouldn't have worked. But when you consider that some players make money from cheating and already write their own scripts, it doesn't take a leap of imagination to conclude they'd simply stay a step or 2 ahead of the game. The folks writing the PB code are not super human. They can be beaten by hackers and scripters too.

Time to become a majority then.

LOL...

Wenchy

 

[Snakeman]

Some of PunkBuster Info they have on their site.

• Real-time scanning of memory by PB Client on players' computers searching for known hacks/cheats
• Throttled two-tiered background auto-update system using multiple Internet Master Servers to provide end-user security ensuring that no false or corrupted updates can be installed on players' computers
• Frequent status reports (highly encrypted) are sent to the PB Server by all players and the PB Server raises a violation when necessary which causes the offending player to be removed from the game and all other players are informed of the violation
• 
  
• PB Admins can also manually remove players from the game for a specified number of minutes or permanently ban if desired
• PB Servers can optionally be configured to randomly check player settings looking for known exploits of the game engine
• PB Admins can request actual screenshot samples from specific players and/or can configure the PB Server to randomly grab screenshot samples from players during gameplay
• An optional "bad name" facility is provided so that PB Admins can prevent players from using offensive player names containing unwanted profanity or racial slurs
• Search functions are provided for PB Admins who wish to search player's keybindings and scripts for anything that may be known to exploit the game
• 
  
• The PunkBuster™ Player Power facility can be configured to allow players to self-administer game servers when the Server Administrator is not present entirely without the need for passwords
• PB Servers have an optional built-in mini http web server interface that allows the game server to be remotely administered via a web browser from anywhere over the Internet

Ones I highlited in Red caught my eye.
1st one in Red: Highly encrypted reports send.... Ok so they have control over my computer to send this report?? I don't think so!

2nd in Red: PB servers can request actual screenshot samples of specific players... Again having Control over my computer & doing actions without my knowledge... I F'ng think not

3rd in red: Search functions are provided for PB Admins who wish to search player's keybindings and scripts... So I have in UOA, a made up/recorded Macro Script to help me in some way & PB thinks it's a 3rd party prog & flags me .... It can happen, it has in other games with PB

There are a couple more in there like PB removing players, ya I can see this, just like GM's NOT knowing game mechanics & banning a player unjustly. (Just look at GM's not knowing game mechanics, One example that comes to mind - you can add spaces to a pets name so they can have more then a 2 word name, Ie: a hiryu - made to One Bad Turkey. I know some GM's did not know that In KR you can do that, it was posted here on Stratics.)

ya there are possibly a couple of pro's, but the majority are major con's

 

[nateee]

Simple question Punkbuster Yes or No?

In my opinion more people would come back than leave, and I believe WAR has Punkbuster integrated so there is definitely expertise to do it within Mythic.

No.

Rather than stopping cheaters by blocking their program (which can and always evolve to escape programs like Punkbuster), we need to re-examine why people cheat.

Why people cheat? lets see. Because they can. To win.

Take Taming: this is a skill that is primariy used to control pets, but can not be gained by controlling pets. No wonder people use scripts to raise a skill if the only way to raise it is to repetitively tame animals that you are not interested in having.

Why would anyone want to "win" at anything by cheating when in doing so, they have only proven to themselves that the only way they can win is by cheating? The truth is that if you provide a game in which people can advance themselves without cheating, they will do so and enjoy it that much more.

Because they still see it as winning. Im not sure what planet you live on but any time you give a large group of people an oportunity to cheat someone will cheat no matter how little since it makes.

In a harmonious society, you don't need police.

Yes in a perfect world you don't need police. Show me a perfect world.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I voted no.

 

[Kaleb]

No for the simple reason it wouldnt work. I would quit EA uo if it were to come in. One solution is to go after gold and item sellers if it were not for their demand then people wouldnt need to cheat. and I dont mean just ban their account but their IP,CC#,Home Address/billing info,E-mail(CC#,And Home Address ties in together if they were to just simply change cards the billing address would match the banned address.).

Where I play they search and destroy gold and item sellers they set up stings and bannhammer them, They set server speeds where even though the server is in texas, im in washington, the guys/gals in Japan,New york,France,England,Aus are running the same speed as me not exact but pretty damn close. Should you move faster (skip across screen) then anyone on the server your banned. The common Scripting program is not allowed if a person is running a script to gather resources they will get banned GM's will check on resource gatherers from time to time(like golem Wackers in luna) and always check on a script page if for any reason they are doing an action that is clearly to fast for normal Human reaction they will get banned (like instantly cureing a nox when a nox is applied).

I have played UO for 11 years. when people started selling gold and items that is when scripting and cheating really took off. Im not sayin it would totally get rid of the problem but kill a majority of it.

 

[deadite]

Good grief people. Seriously. Some of you are comically paranoid.

What do you think the Anti-Virus program on your computer does? How about the Anti-Spyware program? They essentially do the same thing that Punkbuster does, but I don't see folks in here overreacting to the fact that AVG is scanning all their open files for viruses...

So it's okay to scan for viruses, but not for cheat programs?

Whatever.

Punkbuster Refresher Course by Darkscribe

 

[Chiera]

What do you think the Anti-Virus program on your computer does? How about the Anti-Spyware program? They essentially do the same thing that Punkbuster does, but I don't see folks in here overreacting to the fact that AVG is scanning all their open files for viruses...

So it's okay to scan for viruses, but not for cheat programs?

the difference is that one telephones home the other doesn't.

 

[deadite]

Where do you think AV companies get their infection statistics from?

 

[Raina]

Except they do, their program doesn't read the contents of files....it doesn't transmit the content of files, it scans processes in your memory for specific signatures which known cheat programs use. When you start a program your PC assigns it a Process ID number. If your on windows and open your Task Manager an view the Services tab you can see a list of these ID's it's the PID column. If two processes are transfering data back and forth your PC tracks them via those PID's so if Punkbuster is installed, it would be looking for programs by PID talking to the Client's PID by scanning information in Memory. It could care less about what other information is out there just about what's talking to your client.

You've obviously never read their Privacy Policy. Even if I, say for example, have a document up while UO is running, easily risk a copy of said document ending up being sent to them. For security AND Privacy reasons it's more risk than necessary for a game.

Our software inspects the displayed screen, processes and files associated with each computer system on which it is running for the purpose of authenticating those systems for play in a "cheat free" environment.

That's part of the problem, people have no idea what it really does. Much worse they have no idea what it might do in the future, as it can be changed with a moments notice and pretty much no need to inform the 'user' that they upped the ante.

~Rai

 

[Demonous]

EA should make unattended macroing legal and then turn all their focus on speedhackers

 

[UOKaiser]

You've obviously never read their Privacy Policy. Even if I, say for example, have a document up while UO is running, easily risk a copy of said document ending up being sent to them. For security AND Privacy reasons it's more risk than necessary for a game.



That's part of the problem, people have no idea what it really does. Much worse they have no idea what it might do in the future, as it can be changed with a moments notice and pretty much no need to inform the 'user' that they upped the ante.

~Rai

I agree. Uo is not a full screen game well usually it's not played like that unlike other games punkbuster is used for. When a screen shot is taken from those games they usually just catch the game cause the game takes youre full screen. Uo on the other hand you can have it minimized and do youre job or sensitive writing or whatever in the rest of the space of youre screen. Not to mention all of us that use dual screens. Screen shots of this would be a horrible violation of security in the job or at home.

 

[Raina]

That's not really how it works.

It doesn't scan documents...or files on your hard drive. It looks at what programs are running on your machine...not the contents of your drive, or your docs.

So, if I'm multitasking there is no risk of them taking a screenshot at any given time? Oh wait, they explicitly say they DO this.

If they did require PB, just close any other programs that you would not want anyone seeing you run before you launch UO.

So, lets go back and run UO on a Commodore 64 instead of a modern day PC that can actually Multi-Task, and we'll take all the control of the user from doing witht heir PC what they WANT to do, or how they normally use it. Three steps backwards to try and take one step forward, that's okay?

Maybe for some people, just not for me.

Again, it cannot see your documents. It cannot read your passwords. It cannot send anyone any information about you, except what programs and processes you were running when you started UO, while you were running UO, and when you closed UO. That's it.

It can possibly see anything you have on your screen at any given time.

With that said however, the so-called privacy issue comes off as paranoia...or a smoke screen for cheaters.

The problem is that as soon as you become complacent with giving up rights, it's a landslide effect to which the end can only be continuing to give up such rights by degrees. Ye 'ole Slippery Slope. Today it may be process monitoring, tomorrow it may be a requirement an image of your hard drive is sent to a company for evaluation before you can play online.

It's like Taxes, they never get better, they just incrementally keep going and going until there is nothing left.

It's truly not about cheating at this point, as a well thought out method to prevent cheating I'm all for. Never cheated at any online game before, nor do I have a desire to start.

Saying "I don't trust Punk Buster...but I gave Electronic Arts my name, address, email address, IP address, and Credit Card number" is rather ... well ...silly.

EA, just like the creators of Punk Buster, has a professional reputation to maintain...and that reputation will make them or break them when it comes to their clients.

The difference is, I have an agreement with EA, with such Terms of Service and Privacy Policies in place. However there is a huge difference when I have an agreement with EA, and they then say "Well you need to also have X Agreement with Y Third Party Companies". Then your also dealing with additional companies with which you may not have such a trustworthy relationship with. I mean would you really go with a random google to purchase a new LCD TV just because the price was better and they say their trustworthy? You answer all those Viagra Emails you get because you trust the sender?

Trusting one company or one person does not inherently mean that you should trust all companies or all people. I mean hey if I start a company will you give me your address and credit card number just because I have a business?

While trusting someone with your personal information doesn't mean you deserve to get screwed, if you trust everyone with your personal information just because you trust one person, you sure as hell are asking for it.

If Punk Buster stole someone's personal info...and it was reported that it happened, no one like EA would ever use them again...and they would go out of business.

Think about it like this...your bank has more information on you than almost anyone. But you trust them with everything you have.

And yet Banks loose credit card information and people still use them, credit card companies have lost swaths of peoples information and people still use them... Uh... hows that work again?

Oh yea and someone has to a) know and b) find out and be able to trace something back to the company. Honestly, law enforcement just doesn't care that much. If you think they'll go down to the ends of the earth for your meager credit history I think you'll find your a bit mistaken.

Privacy is not a valid reason to not want Punk Buster...unless you have something to hide.

Incorrect, that is a very naive statement.
Maybe it's a valid reason because people are uninterested in giving an inch, because they know down the line it turns into giving a mile.
Maybe it's a valid reason because people don't want to be forced into a relationship with a 3rd party company by an existing company relationship.
Maybe it's a valid reason because people just don't want more spyware on their computers.

~Rai

 

[Chiera]

Where do you think AV companies get their infection statistics from?

that's a rather wild guess

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

So, if I'm multitasking there is no risk of them taking a screenshot at any given time?

Unless I am mistaken, it only sends screenshots of the program it is servicing...in this case, UO.

So, lets go back and run UO on a Commodore 64 instead of a modern day PC that can actually Multi-Task, and we'll take all the control of the user from doing witht heir PC what they WANT to do, or how they normally use it. Three steps backwards to try and take one step forward, that's okay?

That's just hyperbole. I will ignore it.

It can possibly see anything you have on your screen at any given time.

No, not really.

The problem is that as soon as you become complacent with giving up rights, it's a landslide effect to which the end can only be continuing to give up such rights by degrees. Ye 'ole Slippery Slope. Today it may be process monitoring, tomorrow it may be a requirement an image of your hard drive is sent to a company for evaluation before you can play online.

Are you one of these people that only pays cash, doesn't use bank accounts, has someone else shop for you, etc?? If you are that concerned about "Ye 'ole Slippery Slope"...you should be, because you are giving up WAY more info when you buy groceries using your debt card and your store's loyalty card than you would be with Punk Buster.

It's like Taxes, they never get better, they just incrementally keep going and going until there is nothing left.

A little off topic...but I hate taxes too. Unfortunately America has voted for four years of ultra-taxation...so get ready!

I have an agreement with EA, with such Terms of Service and Privacy Policies in place. However there is a huge difference when I have an agreement with EA, and they then say "Well you need to also have X Agreement with Y Third Party Companies". Then your also dealing with additional companies with which you may not have such a trustworthy relationship with.

You might want to consider reading that agreement, because they include provisos for just such cases.

Incorrect, that is a very naive statement.
Maybe it's a valid reason because people are uninterested in giving an inch, because they know down the line it turns into giving a mile.
Maybe it's a valid reason because people don't want to be forced into a relationship with a 3rd party company by an existing company relationship.
Maybe it's a valid reason because people just don't want more spyware on their computers.

~Rai

Maybe it's this, maybe it's that...but for 90+ % of the people saying no, its because they cheat.

I said no as well...but not because I care about having Punk Buster on my PC, I already have it. I just know for a FACT it won't work. It didn't work for Battlefield 2142...it won't work for UO, so why bother?

 

[Gheed]

That's part of the problem, people have no idea what it really does.
~Rai

I am afraid you have revealed our plan. My commander will not be happy about this. But since you have informed all humans on your planet I might as well explain:

We have unleashed our primary attack some time ago. You call it "marketing" on your planet. We find the best way to make you happy is to try to offer you goods and services you may actually want. Of course we do not want to bother you with annoying questionnaires or offering you thousands of choices hoping you pick one.

We want to observe you in your natural environment. We want to record what you like to eat, where you like to go on vacation, what you like to sleep on, what kind of car you drive. Toothpaste, shampoo, toilet, paper, soap, dishes, clothes, make-up, cravings, fetishes, decoration... we want to know every detail of your life. We want to make you happy.

PB is actually spyware in a vast network of seemingly harmless devices designed to monitor your natural choices of preference. Every time you use your credit card, rent a movie, order a pizza, perform an internet search, click on a website, write a check, sign a contract, drive over that little cable stretched over your lane, buy a box of cereal then swipe your price saver card for a discount, you become a statistic fed into our database which can efficiently tell use what part of your life we can improve. How we can make your life more convenient.

Why do we do this? Money? No.... no no no.... we want to make you happy. This is where the final phase of our plan is initiated. This final phase is under direct supervision of our commander: Alec Baldwin "TV star".

Once you arrive at your well decorated/furnished (potterybarn.com) dream home (realtor.com) from your perfect job (monster.com), and met by your perfect spouse (eharmony.com), you will unwittingly sit down to watch TV.

You know they say TV will rot your brain. That's absurd. TV only softens the brain like a ripe banana. To take it all the way we've created Hulu. Hulu beams TV directly to your portable computing devices, giving you more of the cerebral gelatinizing shows you want anytime, anywhere, for free... Mmmm... mooshy moosh. And the best part is there is nothing you can do to stop it. I mean what are you going to do? Turn off your TV and your computer? Once your brain is reduced to a cottage cheese like mush, we'll scoop them out with a melon baller and gobble them right on up. Ooops... I think I'm drooling a little.... because we're aliens... and that's how we roll.

 

[The Craftsman]

Why the hell would EA want to introduce punkbuster. its a lose/lose situation for them...

If it doesnt work then they waste time resources and money on it.

If it does work then they lose half their playerbase and therefore income.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

.

If it doesnt work then they waste time resources and money on it.

If it does work then they lose half their playerbase and therefore income.

Yep.

That's why they didn't do it.

 

[Divster]

Plenty of other games use punkbuster with no problems, if it could be integrated to uo without too much hassle then yes hell yes bring it. only reasons not to would be from people it would force to stop cheating, or those who are overly paranoid about the so called "ill effects" they think could arise from it.

 

[Viper09]

I think EA's main concern is the number of people who use UOA, nothing else.
Perhaps they fear that PunkBuster will detect UOA as an illegal program and have them removed from the game.

On a side note: I find paranoid people hilarious. I also know the Men in Black are monitoring me right no so I can't say anything else right now...

 

[Violence]

Ooops... I am responsible for making it 86-86 most possibly ... Oh well.
I always add spice where it is needed.. ;P

 

[Radun]

Where do you think AV companies get their infection statistics from?

people who click the "send report" button

 

[Lord_Puffy]

all Im going to say is that the game has became over ran with speedhackers. I dont think this poll will do anything because there are more speedhackers than their arent. so goodluck with this one. I voted yes and tied it at 90/90 but still 90 peopel said no? must be the speedhackers.

 

[Lord_Puffy]

Why the hell would EA want to introduce punkbuster. its a lose/lose situation for them...

If it doesnt work then they waste time resources and money on it.

If it does work then they lose half their playerbase and therefore income.

I coudlnt agree more, more than half the game is filled with speedhackers and scripters now. This isnt Ultima Online anymore its just a watered down version of its former glorious self. It is a sad day.

 

[The Craftsman]

I coudlnt agree more, more than half the game is filled with speedhackers and scripters now. This isnt Ultima Online anymore its just a watered down version of its former glorious self. It is a sad day.

Correct. Half the game is filled with speedhackers and scripters. Coincidently, half the people voting in this thread dont want punkbuster.

Read into that what you will...

 

[ElvishArcher]

I voted yes and tied it at 90/90 but still 90 peopel said no? must be the speedhackers.

Oh My Jeebus! You people need to go buy something called Q-Tips and clean out your ears or start to listen a little better. I have played this game for 8ish years and never once have I Downloaded anything to assist me in UO other than the legit programs UOAssist and AutoMap, and I voted NO. But then again, you still probabley have wax built up and still didn't hear me so I'll say it again a little louder for ya:

PUNKBUSTER DOES NOT WORK! READ BEFORE YOU JUDGE! IN FACT CHECK OUT GOOGLE SOMETIME FOR KEYWORDS: "PunkBuster hacks free" AND SEE FOR YOURSELF... HACKS FOR PB ARE ABUNDANT!

OK done yelling... hope you finally cleared that waxy buildup from your ears and heard that!

The biggest issue we have is that it is an invasive program that will have access to PC's people use in one form or another that some of us can NOT let happen. I myself play often from my work computer on breaks with my Commander's approval, but PB is actually listed on our DoD (Dept. of Defense) "No Download" list. I just inquired last night at work.Then there are other issues as well... PB even has had problems with certain games needing PB workarounds etc just to be able to play the game in question.

But then again, as you state, 90/90 is when you voted and then you state that half of UO is speedhacking... so even though I have NEVER had over 10 million in my 8ish years of UO, I am probably still in your eyes just lying cause I Hack... must be since I voted NO. Some of you people just make me sick with your inability to do any research before you open your mouths. Nuff said

 

[Viper09]

PUNKBUSTER DOES NOT WORK! READ BEFORE YOU JUDGE! IN FACT CHECK OUT GOOGLE SOMETIME FOR KEYWORDS: "PunkBuster hacks free" AND SEE FOR YOURSELF... HACKS FOR PB ARE ABUNDANT!

Hahaha, oh yeah, sure they will work. Believe everything you see from a search engine for hacks. Just because it's posted in a hacking website doesn't mean anything.