PvP Tamers

[drinkbeerallday]

We all know PvP tamers are insanely overpowered. What type of compromise would you all be comfortable with?

(This is not a political thread, if you want to debate whether Taming is overpowered please start a new thread with that premise)

I think Pet Stat loss should probably be 25 percent, maybe compromise to 10 percent.

Log out/Log in needs to be fixed. (should only work near a stable master and player cannot be flagged)

Pet ball cannot be used in dungeon/t2a of Fel and uses up as many charges as the control slots the pet uses. Also cannot be flagged.

Stealth skill uses 5 Control Slots. (not hiding)

Anything else? I think these are all very reasonable ideas that will make it so pets are still powerful but because of that power, comes risk.

120 Vet required to heal pet with G-Heal etc..

 

[controlfive]

Reduce pet damage to players by x%. easy solution, easy to tweak/balance later. doesn't nerf pvm tamers, any items, or specific templates like some of the suggestions you listed.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

how would any of that nerf pvm tamer? they can still type all kill, target a monster and hide like they can now.

and if you want to reduce damage i am all for it. i was under the impression that was out of the question for tamers.

pet ball/log out is a severe problem. i won't budge on that.

i guess the 25 percent stat loss could be only for PvP, for PvM make it 10 percent i guess?

 

[Karthcove]

We all know PvP tamers are insanely overpowered. What type of compromise would you all be comfortable with?

(This is not a political thread, if you want to debate whether Taming is overpowered please start a new thread with that premise)

I think Pet Stat loss should probably be 25 percent, maybe compromise to 10 percent.

Log out/Log in needs to be fixed. (should only work near a stable master and player cannot be flagged)

Pet ball cannot be used in dungeon/t2a of Fel and uses up as many charges as the control slots the pet uses. Also cannot be flagged.

Stealth skill uses 5 Control Slots. (not hiding)

Anything else? I think these are all very reasonable ideas that will make it so pets are still powerful but because of that power, comes risk.

120 Vet required to heal pet with G-Heal etc..

Eliminate any magic healing of pets.

Log in/out can't be fixed until they fix the monster/pet teleport issue - currently it is the only way to get your pet unstuck.

In the end if you see a tamer with a pet more powerful than you can handle...run, ally yourself with a pvp tamer or modify your template to include taming.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

Log in/out can't be fixed until they fix the monster/pet teleport issue - currently it is the only way to get your pet unstuck.

under my plan you would be free to head to any stable master and retrieve your pet. (provided you are unflagged, of course)

In the end if you see a tamer with a pet more powerful than you can handle...run, ally yourself with a pvp tamer or modify your template to include taming.

i disagree. in the end, the developer's will design a compromise solution that will balance out the playing field

 

[Karthcove]

So basically your position is that the only reason for the fel rule set is pvp?

Rules should not change just to satisfy your individual play style - all things must be considered.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

So basically your position is that the only reason for the fel rule set is pvp?

no.. ??? confused about what you mean here can you please clarify?

Rules should not change just to satisfy your individual play style -
all things must be considered.

i agree. and if the rules that need changing affect my individual playstyle i'm not sure why they shouldn't be changed. or do you mean we shouldn't change rules just to satisfy certain templates? because my playstyle is many characters and i do many things in the game. can you clarify what you mean by that?

 

[controlfive]

are you serious?

I think Pet Stat loss should probably be 25 percent, maybe compromise to 10 percent.

Log out/Log in needs to be fixed. (should only work near a stable master and player cannot be flagged)

Pet ball cannot be used in dungeon/t2a of Fel and uses up as many charges as the control slots the pet uses. Also cannot be flagged.

Stealth skill uses 5 Control Slots. (not hiding)

120 Vet required to heal pet with G-Heal etc..

all of those are nerfs to templates or items that aren't solely used for pvp. when people who don't pvp get hit by collateral nerfs, that's always a bad suggestion.

why would a flat damage reduction be out of the question? i mean nobody wants to log in after patch day and find out that their template does less damage, but balancing is what it is.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

are you serious?



all of those are nerfs to templates or items that aren't solely used for pvp. when people who don't pvp get hit by collateral nerfs, that's always a bad suggestion.

why would a flat damage reduction be out of the question? i mean nobody wants to log in after patch day and find out that their template does less damage, but balancing is what it is.

well the log out/log in is SEVERE pvp issue and needs to be made so you get your pet at stable not in the field. sorry i just can't budge on that

as far as the rest of it maybe you can explain to me why it is a problem? i never said damage reduction was out of the question i figured that was one of the tamer's primary demands so i am trying to figure out how to keep the pet powerful but put strict yet reasonable limits on that power. (stat loss) i don't understand what you are trying to get at here. please explain.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

What type of compromise would you all be comfortable with?

Here's a good compromise:


You stop spamming the boards with this crap, and I will stop calling you a whining baby.

How's that?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

What type of compromise would you all be comfortable with?

Eliminate the taming skill?






















I kid, I kid...la

 

[weins201]

Pet stat loss has Nothing to do with PvP at all you are just whining because a tamer kills you. Learn how to fight a tamer and youll be fine. I died to tamers and my tamers dies more than not in a field fight. I a Choke it a different story but still valnerable.

Log in / Log out again has nothing to do with PvP. The only time a tamer uses this if if dragging a Greater around and tries to get them into dungeons. In this aspect I agre if you log out in any of the fel dungeons, or ANY champ area when you log back in you should end up in another safe town. Just like using "Help Stuck" or like when the invasion rerouted you.

Pet balls already were tweaked to the lowest level they shold ever be placed at, ay ohter lessening of their uses might as well delet them.

If you hide or stealth your pets should lose 5 times more loyalty then normal as oyu have tricked them. Have you ever hidden from your Dog/Cat they get kinda freaked out.
If oyu stealth your pets should not be able to follow you at all, they shold wander.

If you make it so you need vet you use greater heal than you need healing to use the healing spell period.

Morgan hit it on the head I vote for her idea.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

Here's a good compromise:


You stop spamming the boards with this crap, and I will stop calling you a whining baby.

How's that?

no. you can call me whatever you want and i will keep reporting your obnoxious posts. what the mods do about that is between you and them.

 

[Wenchkin]

I think Pet Stat loss should probably be 25 percent, maybe compromise to 10 percent.

If that was for pets killed in PvP only, no probs with that. If it's intended to spread into PvM deaths, we need to fix a bug where if the tamer is mid-bandaid in vetting their pet and it dies, the pet is resurrected and instantly killed by the mob. I wouldn't want to pick up an easy 50% stat loss every time my pets died.

We used to lose 1.0 rather than 0.1 but it was toned down by the devs. Though the 1.0 did mount up surprisingly quickly.

Log out/Log in needs to be fixed. (should only work near a stable master and player cannot be flagged)

The pet should simply be left in game until it times out while under a PvP flag, so the tamer finishes the fight, regardless of whether it worked out in their favor. Then if a pet is logged off because the flag wore off, it should return to the stable so the tamer can't log back in later and have their pet beside them.

Pet ball cannot be used in dungeon/t2a of Fel and uses up as many charges as the control slots the pet uses. Also cannot be flagged.

I don't use pet balls outside my bank box anyway, so I can't say that would bother me.

Stealth skill uses 5 Control Slots. (not hiding)

No. If you want to prevent a player from saying all kill and then hiding and stealthing, a simple timer would do the trick. If the tamer commands their pet to attack a player, they must remain visible for x period of time. But unless you were to apply a restriction to casting invis, using an invis item or potion etc etc, I think it's harsh to apply that solely to stealth. I can understand why you want that change, but I think there are better ways to accomplish the desired effect. Ideally without breaking it for PvM at the same time.

Anything else? I think these are all very reasonable ideas that will make it so pets are still powerful but because of that power, comes risk.

120 Vet required to heal pet with G-Heal etc..

My usual additions, real skill for control and bonding, vet skill taken into account in order for a pet to bond and remain bonded. Would prefer those to be implemented first though, because the strongest tamer should be the one with most skill invested in that profession IMO.

Wenchy

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

no. you can call me whatever you want and i will keep reporting your obnoxious posts. what the mods do about that is between you and them.

I think the mods know a troll and spammer when they see one.

Report away. It's not like they don't actually read these boards for context.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

the strongest tamer should be the one with most skill invested in that profession IMO.

Wenchy

Agreed 100%.

 

[Frey Wavestrider]

While I understand that in PVP some templates are too powerful, any nerf to them will affect PVM. As I read the boards I think that some of the commentors have not done alot of PVM as tamers and may not understand it, I know that alot will disagree.

how would any of that nerf pvm tamer? they can still type all kill, target a monster and hide like they can now.

That quote is the only reason I even responded to the thread. If you are saying that you have not tried to heal two pets at once against a champ or a crimson dragon. Unless I have a lot of mages there who are will to heal my pets, I can be found standing beside them using vet and great heal spells. Most of the tames I know do the same. Vet heals more damage and when you need to try and bring a pet back from near death it is the best way. The result is I have died alot fighting along side my pets.

As for the stat loss, remember unlike a sword or armour that takes damage in combat or even the player, when I pet takes a stat loss it takes a lot of hard work to get that loss back. Armour can be replaced quickly and easily.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

My usual additions, real skill for control and bonding, vet skill taken into account in order for a pet to bond and remain bonded. Would prefer those to be implemented first though, because the strongest tamer should be the one with most skill invested in that profession IMO.

Herding also needs to come into the equation in some way.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Herding also needs to come into the equation in some way.

3 skills isn't enough?

 

[drinkbeerallday]

3 skills isn't enough?

mage:

120 mage
120 eval
120 resist
120 weapon skill

and i can't do anything really against a greater dragon. i can paraylze the dragon. i can stand there trying to para and dump on the tamer but he probably has trapped boxes/pots/chiv whatever to heal and the dragon can do whatever it wants the whole time. i can't attack and heal at the same time. it is not a fair 1v1 fight at all.

and that is vs. what?

120 taming 120 lore 120 mage

if that even? they don't even need vet.

add on 120 eval and they are just as much offense as me + they have a dragon.

 

[controlfive]

3 skills isn't enough?

pay no attention, he said in another thread that item id should be a requisite to insure items. he would drive uo straight into the ground if he were made dev for a day

it wouldn't be a bad idea to give stable slots for having herding on your tamer or something like that, though.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Did I say GDs don't need balancing in PvP? I don't think I said any such thing.

You really aought to stop jumping to conclusions.

And I was thinking more along the lines of:

Warrior:
Weapon skill
Tactics
Anatomy

Mage:
Magery
Eval Int
Meditation

The BASIC skill set required, and I'm not talking about PvP templates, because I don't play PvP and shouldn't have my gameplay dictated to me due to whining from 10% of the population, even if the whining is based on real discrepencies in power.

Herding should be more like inscription - an additional 10% bonus, so a nice thing to have, but not a NECESSITY to playing a tamer.

I DO think at least some Vet should be required, though - I like Wenchy's suggestion to have it related to bonding in some way. As is, its only a convenience, not the necessity it really should be - better/easier PvM, and doesn't rely on others to rez.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

it wouldn't be a bad idea to give stable slots for having herding on your tamer or something like that, though.

I think you just won the thread. That's exactly the sort of thing i just mentioned... a bonus that's nice to have, but isn't a necessity!

Awesome.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

I think you just won the thread. That's exactly the sort of thing i just mentioned... a bonus that's nice to have, but isn't a necessity!

Awesome.

it was my idea. lol......

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

I didn't see that you'd introduced that idea - it seemed to be controlfive that did so. My apologies - Great idea, buddy!

That's the sort of thing that should be implemented - less nerf, but more interdependence on other skills that doesn't break the game.



Edit: Like 120 vet required to Greater Heal a pet. Didn't the devs state that Power Scrolls, especially 120 scrolls, wouldn't be absolutely necessary to play the game? Do you know how different pets are when you can't Greater Heal, say against AoE damage monsters"

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

and i can't do anything really against a greater dragon. i can paraylze the dragon. i can stand there trying to para and dump on the tamer but he probably has trapped boxes/pots/chiv whatever to heal and the dragon can do whatever it wants the whole time. i can't attack and heal at the same time. it is not a fair 1v1 fight at all.

 

[Yalp]

pet ball/log out is a severe problem. i won't budge on that.

Won't budge on it? What does that even mean?

you think a tamer (in pvp) being able to disengage from the fight, secure himself, then secure his pet, is a severe problem. You want to be able to kill the pet too.. and they are not allowing you the opportunity to cause them to be removed from the field of pvp for what? 3-5 minutes? If you kill the tamer, and they can not log out to prevent their pet from being killed.. assuming you dry looted their aids, they now have to get rezzed, get redressed, get some aids, FIND their pet while ON foot (always a trick when it wanders off 4-10 screens), get the pet rezzed and to full health, AND in the case of GD's wait the 5 minutes until it's MANA is regenerated and FEED it until it's stamina is regenerated. Plus let's add on the loss in skill points that all pets have to regain.

Tell me which template is given this equivalent? Or which weapon has the equivalent? Or which pvp team experiences the equivalent?

You speak of this pet ball "issue" as if it's the bane of all that is wrong with UO.. yet you conveniently FORGET to mention all the extra "just for you tamers, here's a kick in yer arse" the devs have thrown in cause they are just so darn powerful!

 

[Tina Small]

For everyone who keeps getting tangled up in this "discussion," take a look at the following. Maybe it'll give some of you a good laugh.

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2009/01/11

 

[Frey Wavestrider]

For everyone who keeps getting tangled up in this "discussion," take a look at the following. Maybe it'll give some of you a good laugh.

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2009/01/11

Right on target. Thank you for something to smile at before I go to work

 

[Wenchkin]

Herding also needs to come into the equation in some way.

No it doesn't. By all means add a perk if a tamer has herding, but this is a skill that only a few on each shard even use. To require it for anything is silly. That's taking a sledgehammer to crack a walnut...

Wenchy

 

[Wenchkin]

Won't budge on it? What does that even mean?

you think a tamer (in pvp) being able to disengage from the fight, secure himself, then secure his pet, is a severe problem. You want to be able to kill the pet too.. and they are not allowing you the opportunity to cause them to be removed from the field of pvp for what? 3-5 minutes?

Tell me which template is given this equivalent? Or which weapon has the equivalent? Or which pvp team experiences the equivalent?

You speak of this pet ball "issue" as if it's the bane of all that is wrong with UO.. yet you conveniently FORGET to mention all the extra "just for you tamers, here's a kick in yer arse" the devs have thrown in cause they are just so darn powerful!

Do you log out to save your pets from every death or something? Because that's the impression that you give. It's not just PvP where this thing is annoying, in a busy PvM mob, if a tamer decides to log out and save their precious pet, it results in a whole stack of spawn re targeting you and your pets. I've had it happen a few times and while the tamer removes their pets from harm, they sure as heck don't help mine out much, do they?

If a tamer wants to protect their pet from death and skill loss, he/she should stay out of PvP and only PvM in areas that they and their pets can handle. If you come to Fel and PvP you either accept the risk to your pets or you take another character.

If you kill the tamer, and they can not log out to prevent their pet from being killed.. assuming you dry looted their aids, they now have to get rezzed, get redressed, get some aids, FIND their pet while ON foot (always a trick when it wanders off 4-10 screens), get the pet rezzed and to full health, AND in the case of GD's wait the 5 minutes until it's MANA is regenerated and FEED it until it's stamina is regenerated. Plus let's add on the loss in skill points that all pets have to regain.

If the death of your pets is such a huge burden to you, maybe you shouldn't be a tamer. Or just take responsibility for looking after the pets. Learn from mistakes that result in loss or stay out of the battlefield.

If there was no skill loss, tamers would just throw pets around like toys and have no negative consequence for their irresponsibility. So you're wrong to suggest that it's unfair on tamers to have this penalty. It's the one thing which will make a tamer think first before wading in over their necks. Logging out has become a way for some to circumvent that balance and it's wrong.

By all means ensure the pet isn't left in game when a tamer loses connection, but this is about preventing death, not a wild pet. And it needs to be fixed in a way that allows autologging to work as intended, while not allowing a tamer to run around risk free.

Wenchy

 

[RichDC]

By all means ensure the pet isn't left in game when a tamer loses connection, but this is about preventing death, not a wild pet. Wenchy

I Really want to see this gone!!!

I have terrible connection (due to the fact im in uk and play on a us server) and i have had it many times where i will be on a peerless run, ahve it all set up only to lose connectio forcing my pet back to me. Usually resulting in a nasty death!!!

If there was a timer, say after 5mins of inactivity the pet stables, that would give enough time for any decent pvper to kill the pet and usually allow people like me to re-connect before any damage is done.

That being said it makes me laugh that majority of people give reasoned arguments and listen to the responses, some even change there minds...drinkbeerallday you seem to be very imature in that respect, i have seen your name on posts the most adding nothing new to any discussion and trying to shoot any1s suggestions down unless it fits your playstyle.

IMHO anyway.

 

[Divster]

Morgana the majority of your posts in this thread have been complete troll posts, how about instead of trying to troll a thread u personally disagree with, just ignore it? also doesn;t help to accuse someone of something then do the same thing!

 

[Yalp]

Do you log out to save your pets from every death or something? Because that's the impression that you give. It's not just PvP where this thing is annoying, in a busy PvM mob, if a tamer decides to log out and save their precious pet, it results in a whole stack of spawn re targeting you and your pets. I've had it happen a few times and while the tamer removes their pets from harm, they sure as heck don't help mine out much, do they?

If a tamer wants to protect their pet from death and skill loss, he/she should stay out of PvP and only PvM in areas that they and their pets can handle. If you come to Fel and PvP you either accept the risk to your pets or you take another character.


If the death of your pets is such a huge burden to you, maybe you shouldn't be a tamer. Or just take responsibility for looking after the pets. Learn from mistakes that result in loss or stay out of the battlefield.

If there was no skill loss, tamers would just throw pets around like toys and have no negative consequence for their irresponsibility. So you're wrong to suggest that it's unfair on tamers to have this penalty. It's the one thing which will make a tamer think first before wading in over their necks. Logging out has become a way for some to circumvent that balance and it's wrong.

By all means ensure the pet isn't left in game when a tamer loses connection, but this is about preventing death, not a wild pet. And it needs to be fixed in a way that allows autologging to work as intended, while not allowing a tamer to run around risk free.

Wenchy

Oh geez! ....I am not going to get baited by your innuendos.... but I am gonna comment on your statement about pvm.

REALLY? Are you kidding me? So in the heat of battle someone else is taking the risk with their pet, and you are jumping in a nice safe role, hiding behind the skirt of a tamer and their pet, free from being aggro'd or taking damage and/or having to keep yourself alive and do damage, .... and a tamer logs their meat shield out? So now you actually have to do some work, accept the risk to get the reward of the loot, and you are complaining? Wow.. My thoughts, sir, are not very polite at the moment.

That tamer, once alive and barely kicking themselves might want to have some type of defense for themselves from other mobs who might aggo them.. but no... you insist they remain in position as your personal meat shield?

OK.. tell me what is the equivalent for dexers, archers, and/or mages?

 

[Yalp]

For everyone who keeps getting tangled up in this "discussion," take a look at the following. Maybe it'll give some of you a good laugh.

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2009/01/11

perfect!

 

[Farsight]

Oh geez! ....I am not going to get baited by your innuendos.... but I am gonna comment on your statement about pvm.

REALLY? Are you kidding me? So in the heat of battle someone else is taking the risk with their pet, and you are jumping in a nice safe role, hiding behind the skirt of a tamer and their pet, free from being aggro'd or taking damage and/or having to keep yourself alive and do damage, .... and a tamer logs their meat shield out? So now you actually have to do some work, accept the risk to get the reward of the loot, and you are complaining? Wow.. My thoughts, sir, are not very polite at the moment.

That tamer, once alive and barely kicking themselves might want to have some type of defense for themselves from other mobs who might aggo them.. but no... you insist they remain in position as your personal meat shield?

OK.. tell me what is the equivalent for dexers, archers, and/or mages?

Champ spawn true story:
I was hunting with my dragon, and came across another dragon in trouble. Rather than let the rest of the area's spawn add to the dragon's trouble, I park my dragon between that dragon and trouble, turn around and start healing the dragon who took on more than it could chew.

The owner of that dragon, being somewhat thick in the head (IMO), had the idea that he could heal the dragon with bandages in the middle of several lich lords who were spamming wither. When the tamer died, half a second later his half-alive dragon, who I was doing a very good job of healing myself, vanished without a trace. Now instead of having 2 lich lords and 3 rotten corpses on my dragon, I have 6 lich lords and 4 rotting corpses who just retargetted both myself and my dragon.

Fortunately for me, there was a friendly mage (guildmate. gotta love vent!) who was able to aid in healing my dragon, res me (when they retargetted me, I didn't have a chance) and meteor swarm the spawn until my dragon survived with a sliver of health.

Is that what you mean by hiding behind the skirt of a tamer and his pet?

And by the way, I somehow doubt that anyone with the term "Wench" in her name is a "sir."

 

[Wenchkin]

Oh geez! ....I am not going to get baited by your innuendos.... but I am gonna comment on your statement about pvm.

REALLY? Are you kidding me? So in the heat of battle someone else is taking the risk with their pet, and you are jumping in a nice safe role, hiding behind the skirt of a tamer and their pet, free from being aggro'd or taking damage and/or having to keep yourself alive and do damage, .... and a tamer logs their meat shield out? So now you actually have to do some work, accept the risk to get the reward of the loot, and you are complaining? Wow.. My thoughts, sir, are not very polite at the moment.

That tamer, once alive and barely kicking themselves might want to have some type of defense for themselves from other mobs who might aggo them.. but no... you insist they remain in position as your personal meat shield?

OK.. tell me what is the equivalent for dexers, archers, and/or mages?

When I play my characters I try to ensure they don't cause the death of other players when they're PvMing. It's called manners. It's no different to a mage thinking he's in deep trouble and dropping an invis on himself when another player is on screen and clearly going to be hit by the spawn. I don't lure either, accidentally or otherwise.

If you can't handle a spawn, learn how to cope better. Don't use your dependence on logging out to lose your temper with other tamers who just accept more risk than you. You should handle your pets safely, not expect other players to take your spawn on top of what they're fighting already. Maybe someone ought to log their tamer off beside you and we can see how you enjoy that.

Please try and get it into your head that I am not suggesting another player become anyone's meat shield. I am saying that it's bad manners to load your pet up with too much spawn then log out and ensure it targets someone beside you. If you can't understand why that may be considered a little rude, that's your problem.

If you've bitten off more than you can chew, you could do your best to pull your pet and the spawn away from someone, or shout a warning to them. Other players manage this just fine on a daily basis. If you as a tamer can't keep your own pets alive, it doesn't give you the excuse to log out and dump spawn on their fellow hunters. If you think you have that excuse, then I realise this entire discussion is pointless.

Wenchy

 

[Wenchkin]

And by the way, I somehow doubt that anyone with the term "Wench" in her name is a "sir."

Haha!

Aye, I'd worry about myself if I was a bloke with a nickname like Wenchy, but you'd be surprised how many people make that mistake

Wenchy

 

[Yalp]

I say again.. tell me the equivalent for archers, dexer, and/or mages?

 

[Yalp]

When the tamer died, half a second later his half-alive dragon, who I was doing a very good job of healing myself, vanished without a trace. Now instead of having 2 lich lords and 3 rotten corpses on my dragon, I have 6 lich lords and 4 rotting corpses who just retargetted both myself and my dragon.

and if the dragon became all dead?

so the dead tamer has NO right to use his hard earned, trained and cared for pet to his own purposes? He must leave it for your use?

 

[RichDC]

and if the dragon became all dead?

You would have half a second longer to get your pet re-targeting the spawn (all kill while hes attacking will get that spawn to attack drag after original is dead) and by that time with the aid of some healing your own drag would (if its half decent) have finished of the lich lords and be engaging the rotting corpse. thus only leaving 2 and 1/2 RC's and 2-3 LL (cant remember the exact numbers he gave)

 

[Yalp]

Please try and get it into your head that I am not suggesting another player become anyone's meat shield. I am saying that it's bad manners to load your pet up with too much spawn then log out and ensure it targets someone beside you. If you can't understand why that may be considered a little rude, that's your problem.

Wenchy

Which paragraph in the TOS covers manners? Manners and consideration of others is a personal playstyle. How do I report those who play with complete selfishness? So you say tamers walk into a no-win scenario just to get their pet killed?

Other examples which in my experience are more plentiful than the tamer helping out another tamer, is the dexer running past you around a corner, pulling all manner of high level mobs after him, so he can get to the goodies that much quicker.. the most recent example is the invasions in our cities... been to an invaded magincia lately? everyone wants the generals. if you are there with your greater, in short order you have several dexers pulling corrupted souls as well as invasion spawn on your dragon so they can target the general w/o interferrence.

Or how about when pets are engaged with some spawn and suddenly several additional mobs respawn right next to them? Should they not have the ability to retreat? To invis their pet either through spell casting or running off and logging?

How is this different than a dexer pulling out of the fight to regroup or heal/cure? Where is it written the tamer is required to leave his pet in the fight to die? If you've engaged to assist a tamer w/ pet.. great.. more power to you.. but this is neither required nor demanded by our game. If you assess the tamer is in way over his head.. why do you jump in as well? Your choices are to do nothing or to do something else.. clear spawn in other areas? heal the tamer while they heal the pet? Use chiv to dispel the mobs? possibilities in this game are endless. Calling to restrict tamers options is the way you really wanna go?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Morgana the majority of your posts in this thread have been complete troll posts, how about instead of trying to troll a thread u personally disagree with, just ignore it? also doesn;t help to accuse someone of something then do the same thing!

This entire thread is a troll post.

The OP has been spamming the forums with this same topic in at least 10 different threads for over a week now.

You are probably right, I should not be feeding the troll.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

When the tamer died, half a second later his half-alive dragon, who I was doing a very good job of healing myself, vanished without a trace.

I doubt seriously that anyone could move out of the combat area, and log out and back in, in half a second.

Also, if a tamer's pet is in trouble, and overwhelmed in a spawn...should that tamer also not be allowed to recall away with his or pets?

Can you recall away when you are in trouble in PvM?

I don't understand the need for the double standard here.

Disclaimer: please note...this post is not meant to be a "troll" post. It disagrees with the mob-mentality that tamers need to be nerfed, and some arguing that point may find it offensive. It is what is known as a 'differing opinion' and is not in any way meant to be offensive or "troll-like".

 

[Divster]

no need for the disclaimer on that post as you are actually responding with an opinion relevant to the discussion

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

no need for the disclaimer on that post as you are actually responding with an opinion relevant to the discussion

Well, when I have done that in other threads, I got called a troll by the OP. So I just wanted to clarify. Some people cannot tell the difference between someone trolling and someone having a difference of opinion with them.

 

[Wenchkin]

Which paragraph in the TOS covers manners? Manners and consideration of others is a personal playstyle. How do I report those who play with complete selfishness? So you say tamers walk into a no-win scenario just to get their pet killed?

I'm saying two wrongs don't make a right. If they're selfish idiots, you're no better for returning that behavior. Act in the way you'd like to be treated and set a good example.

If a tamer is needing to log off to save his pet, clearly he took on more than the pet could handle, or the situation got out of hand and he couldn't cope. I am not saying you should try to get your pet killed, I am saying you should try to take care of it so that you don't get in over your collective heads and die. There are better, more considerate ways to deal with a spawn swamping your pet than to hide and log off.

Other examples which in my experience are more plentiful than the tamer helping out another tamer, is the dexer running past you around a corner, pulling all manner of high level mobs after him, so he can get to the goodies that much quicker.. the most recent example is the invasions in our cities... been to an invaded magincia lately? everyone wants the generals. if you are there with your greater, in short order you have several dexers pulling corrupted souls as well as invasion spawn on your dragon so they can target the general w/o interferrence.

Players acting like jerks in an invasion spawn isn't anything new. I'm more surprised if they're polite and helpful! I behave in the way I would like others to behave towards me. Low level idiot behavior I ignore and refuse to res them. Usually if they're hauling spawn around like that, their death isn't far away, so I find that the most satisfying conclusion. Especially if I leave all their lured spawn waiting by their corpse....

However, if someone is deliberately luring, you have several obvious polite options.

1. asking them to stop and being prepared to page a GM on their sorry backsides because it's illegal, not something I've ever done, but the option is there.

2. put peace on your template and area peace then pull back.

3. ensure your tamer has supporting skills to kill spawn as you vet your pet.

4. herding is a great skill for controlling champ spawn animals and pinning them back from your pet, sometimes it's a handy support.

5. use a mount pet, let everything target it, then mount and run like heck out of there. This is my fall back with 2 of my tamers and if you can set a mount macro, it works a treat. If you can hide, it's up to you to choose if you take spawn away from the lurer or leave him in it

6. If the mobs aren't casters, you can call the pet to stop and follow and walk it while vetting and keeping the mobs from surrounding it. Once you've got the pet back at full health, you can set it back to kill and repeat that pulling and vetting as necessary.

Then, if none of that suits you, I'd suggest coming to the dark side and creating a hiding, ideally stealthing tamer....

The nice way that my stealther will deal with a lurer is to stand between her pet and the lurer and get the mobs to target her, so she can run away from her pet with the new mobs, hide and then usually she'll run past them back to her pet. Otherwise, she'll stealth the return if she has the time to do it. Sometimes I have to simply back off, wait for my pet to die and call it to me. I don't like that, but if I hated it, I'd have music/peace instead of hide and stealth

The nasty way, which gets the message over really quickly is to suggest to them in clear words that the next time they drop spawn, they'll be fighting it themselves. I give a warning and (I use a mount pet if I'm expecting idiots) I hide and mount when they come over the hill with spawn. Generally the best timing is to wait till they've invis'd so they think they've dumped on you, and be hidden in plenty of time, ready to mount your pet hidden, so the mobs sit around the invis'd lurer. If you hid in plenty of time that then lets you trot off and quite safely let the spawn target you and pull it away. Then I'll hide to break targets and go back to what I was doing. It's tempting to try getting a lurer killed, but much more satisfying to just breeze out the other side and leave them looking stupid. I'm not so nice if it's a repeat offender though. With those I just hide, mount and wait till their invis wears off.

Or how about when pets are engaged with some spawn and suddenly several additional mobs respawn right next to them? Should they not have the ability to retreat? To invis their pet either through spell casting or running off and logging?

This is why some tamers use peacemaking. If you don't have peace then greater confusion blast pots and invis spells or simply vetting like crazy will work too. My bard has provo on her alongside the disco specifically to control crazy spawns. My necro casts gift of renewal and gift of life on the tank pet if trouble kicks off, and can then combine vet with cast heals or more likely she'll spam wither as she vets like crazy to help her pets out. Sometimes these things go wrong, and I'm still learning to be a good necro/weaver, but if you're heading into an area with that kind of unpredictable spawn, you should have a good idea in mind for how to deal with it.

How is this different than a dexer pulling out of the fight to regroup or heal/cure?

My dexers just back off a few tiles and don't cause the mob to re-target. Mostly I find folks will keep dexers healed when they're tanking, but if nobody is healing or x-healing I just try to dart to a gap in the spawn while I'm healing.

Where is it written the tamer is required to leave his pet in the fight to die? If you've engaged to assist a tamer w/ pet.. great.. more power to you.. but this is neither required nor demanded by our game. If you assess the tamer is in way over his head.. why do you jump in as well? Your choices are to do nothing or to do something else.. clear spawn in other areas? heal the tamer while they heal the pet? Use chiv to dispel the mobs? possibilities in this game are endless. Calling to restrict tamers options is the way you really wanna go?

If I see a tamer who needs help then I don't sit and leave his pet any more than I would my own. I've died while healing other players pets and trying to res them at the same time, so please don't accuse me of leaving tamers to lose their pets. I don't! If I see someone genuinely struggling I help them out without question. I always have done. I've been my guild's healer mage for so many years I habitually pull off health bars and heal others. If a spawn is crazy you need to pull together.

But there are times when I have my hands full with vetting my own pets and killing the spawn, and I can't vet both pets simultaneously. So I make a habit of watching a tamer's health bar and if they suddenly vanish and the pet is near death I know what's coming. Fortunately it's only happened a few times, but the tamers concerned could have done better, because their pets would have coped if they had stood and vetted rather than bailing out. 1 didn't have vet so hardly passes the standard in preparation lol. But if that was me in the crap, I'd at least try to call my pets back to protect that other tamer. For one thing, if you're in a busy spawn and annoy others, you'll be the last person to get a heal or res when you really need it!

Wenchy

 

[Hunters' Moon]

~ The GZ should not be a safe place for any pet.(No GZ hugging!!!) Why would a guard come to the rescue of a dragon that it would normaly want to kill? oh..it has a leash...nevermind.

~ Put a casting time cap on dragons and other magic pets just like us players. Why can't I triple cast like a dragon? I have a legendary mage,but he can be out-cast by a dragon?


~ Barding. The tamer should not be able to spam "all kill" to get past a peace success. A spam should never defeat skill points.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

~ The GZ should not be a safe place for any pet.(No GZ hugging!!!) Why would a guard come to the rescue of a dragon that it would normaly want to kill? oh..it has a leash...nevermind.

Do you have ANY idea how much griefing would be involved if people could kill pets in guard zones? If you think people are complaining about PvP tamers now, wait until you see the flood of tamers, non-tamers, and most especially resource-gatherers when their pets, mounts, and pack horses/beetles get whacked without recourse for them.

If we're going to balance PvP tamers, the one thing we have to make sure we do NOT do is make a problem so much worse it makes the screaming about GDs seem like mild-mannered discussion.

~ Put a casting time cap on dragons and other magic pets just like us players. Why can't I triple cast like a dragon? I have a legendary mage,but he can be out-cast by a dragon?

Here, I agree. The casting system should be the same for PCs and NPCs. If a PC can't target someone with a spell screens away, a NPC shouldn't be able to either. Pets should be similarly capped to FC 2 and FCR 6, like all other mages.

~ Barding. The tamer should not be able to spam "all kill" to get past a peace success. A spam should never defeat skill points.

The sort of implications this kind of change might bring (intentionally or not) are so far reaching and so devastatingly powerful for bard characters in PvM, I'm wary of even considering letting the Devs take a crack at it.

In the course of fixing pets teleporting into restricted houses, they caused ALL NPC teleporting to fail. ALL OF IT.

Can you imagine Peace if it were effectively unbreakable? Or if "all kill" no longer flagged you as an aggressor, or something similar? Because that's what I worry about when i saw your suggestion. I have no doubt the sort of tags they use for "All Kill" are the sort of tags needed for it to work properly, and when there's a thousand other things the devs need to do, I sincerely doubt they're going to through a hard-wired solution to such a small problem.








I really think people need to take a few steps back and consider: How might the changes I suggest REALLY affect how the game is played? What suggestions are appropriate for reducing the power of a pet in PvP, but not removing pets from PvP entirely (either by introducing such horrendous penalties for pet death that to even go to Fel is anathema to a pet owner, or by nerfing them to such an extent that they couldn't kill a conn-lost newb)? What sort of solutions can be used that ONLY affect the PvP community, where pets are supposedly top-dog, and won't affect Trammel and PvM, where they're easier but not most efficient, arguably balanced, and don't need across-the-board nerfs that make them worse.





Wenchy, you're a Good Samaritan. So am I, generally - I'll take 1/2 an hour out of my game-time to help strangers get a decent-stat GD, as long as they are polite.

That doesn't mean that being a Good Samaritan should not have risks. If you help out an ailing tamer, you're taking on that risk alongside him. Since no one forced you in the first place, you're responsible for the risk you take on.

I think the concept is that we have to make sure we're Minimally-Decent Samaritans - we should try not to negatively impact others, and at least try to make sure we don't leave others, especially the GSs, in a mess we couldn't handle.

I don't think, however, that should be hard-coded into the game. This game isn't, and in my opinion shouldn't be, about forcing players to make good choices. I'm not saying that luring and griefing is something that should be allowed... but I AM saying that, given the current set of rules we have, no one who is aware of these rules (and I have to assume you're more aware of these rules than most others) should complain when they're left in a bad situation because of selfish, rather than malicious, reasons.

Its a thin line between selfishly trying to save you and your dragon's skins by hiding/invising then logging out, and luring a huge spawn over to another person (or asking for help to get them to come to you) and doing the same. But that ability isn't unique to pets being logged off - any ol' mage or character with the hide skill can pull that off.

Griefing should be disallowed or paged to a GM as TOS violation. Selfish behavior should not. To behave selfishly or or not has to be OUR choice.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Its actually not that difficult to balance the PvP problem.

Just cap damage at 35 for pets and all weapons and spells. Period.

If an archer that is speedhacking zips by you and shoots you with an arrow and you never even see that person...it should do no more than 35 damage.

If a necro mage casts corpse skin then flamestrike on you...35 damage, no more.

If a warrior hits you with his 'l337 uBeR d00d' weapon-of-the-week, it should do no more than 35 damage.

If a Greater Dragon hits you with fire breath...same thing, no more than 35 damage.

Why the need to throw in all kinds of unrelated crap about control slots, hearding, vetting, and stable costs?

If balance is what is sought, then balance is what should be had.

You cannot have balance by nerfing one template just to cause another to become overpowered. That's ridiculous.

Disclaimer: please note...this post is not meant to be a "troll" post. It disagrees with the mob-mentality that tamers need to be nerfed, and some arguing that point may find it offensive. It is what is known as a 'differing opinion' and is not in any way meant to be offensive or "troll-like".