Rampant scripting? Come take a look.

[AesSedai]

- it never ends does it?

If it doesn't affect you then why is it considered cheating in the first place?
Or if it doesn't affect you then why hasn't it been made legal by now?

x: As far as training skill go - should we just have a test shard: set skill = 120 -system put in place, since it doesn't affect anyone?

I mean golems and spectral spellbinders... you can practically play with your eyes closed, eh? So, why hasn't the test center method invaded production yet, since you don't consider unattended skill gains to be cheating?

xx: I'd really like to hear why gaining skills without effort is justified by some; perhaps even by some still reading this thread. Personally I haven't seen what spectral spellbinders can do as I did my magic resist legitimately long-ago...

& while I'm here: I'd also really like to hear why the Devs. have not altered golems yet; and please don't tell me it is for the sake of realism. Are unattended weapon skill gains truly meant to be a matter of purchasing a weapon that allows such?

xxx: I've decided that I will be emailing this post to a few Devs. sometime next week. That's a public and private warning that this will be read by a few Devs. unless they choose to delete said future emails before reading. Why? I've always wanted an answer for the allowance of unattended golem weapon skill gains; as it complicates the GM's workload and provides an advantage, nay, an excuse and a gateway for people to pursue cheating in UO.

 

[UOKaiser]

- it never ends does it?

If it doesn't affect you then why is it considered cheating in the first place?
Or if it doesn't affect you then why hasn't it been made legal by now?

x: As far as training skill go - should we just have a test shard: set skill = 120 -system put in place, since it doesn't affect anyone?

I mean golems and spectral spellbinders... you can practically play with your eyes closed, eh? So, why hasn't the test center method invaded production yet, since you don't consider unattended skill gains to be cheating?

xx: I'd really like to hear why gaining skills without effort is justified by some; perhaps even by some still reading this thread. Personally I haven't seen what spectral spellbinders can do as I did my magic resist legitimately long-ago...

& while I'm here: I'd also really like to hear why the Devs. have not altered golems yet; and please don't tell me it is for the sake of realism. Are unattended weapon skill gains truly meant to be a matter of purchasing a weapon that allows such?

xxx: I've decided that I will be emailing this post to a few Devs. sometime next week. That's a public and private warning that this will be read by a few Devs. unless they choose to delete said future emails before reading. Why? I've always wanted an answer for the allowance of unattended golem weapon skill gains; as it complicates the GM's workload and provides an advantage, nay, an excuse and a gateway for people to pursue cheating in UO.

Simple to answer they already change golems to not be imune to poison thats the first thing. Second these people trin in luna mostly the highest traffic area think about the many many people who stop and try to find them unattended. Eventually they stop answering people so the pages for them pretty much go all day long and the gm that answer them go to them and ask them if there there they say yes we are the gm leaves many more players continue to page gm cue gets tied they go back again and ask the same question they answer they are there round and round it goes eventualy gm stop showing up knowing that they had 5 gm approach the same players everyday. But you never know about it cause gm wont say they approached them.
So as maybe 1 of them may be unattended at a giving time they are mostly there. Well thats the common take. If a dev actualy answer you they probably would say we looking into it but nothing will be done cause they did what they could already. If no golem training then there are many more ways to gain skill by similar methods. Im sure vets don't want to start gaining skill on skeletens,and ettins from scratch again they being there done that they just want to finish another character whith the same skill they gain by the skeleton cementary routes and powerhour 11 and so years ago but don't want to wait another year before they can use the character.

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

I hope some of you copy/paste these arguments considering this topic comes up every other week.

 

[Sindris]

For or against it, UM'ing is going on, the DEV's can't fix problems or address them if they don't have the why's and what-fors. The RNG has its place, but I don't think skill gain is one of them.

I am totally against scripting for resources and gold which inflates the economy and lowers the value of what should be rare items. A double standard perhaps, if you think "cheating is cheating". All I can say is that if spending hours upon hours doing the same repetitive tasks to gain skills gives you immense feelings of satisfaction and accomplishment, bully for you. I have worked countless skills the hard way, some of them multiple times. Yes, it was fun the first few times, but after awhile the destination becomes more important than the journey in that regard.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

 

[Ken of Napa]

I hope some of you copy/paste these arguments considering this topic comes up every other week.

LoL!

QFT

 

[Surgeries]

For or against it, UM'ing is going on, the DEV's can't fix problems or address them if they don't have the why's and what-fors. The RNG has its place, but I don't think skill gain is one of them.

I am totally against scripting for resources and gold which inflates the economy and lowers the value of what should be rare items. A double standard perhaps, if you think "cheating is cheating". All I can say is that if spending hours upon hours doing the same repetitive tasks to gain skills gives you immense feelings of satisfaction and accomplishment, bully for you. I have worked countless skills the hard way, some of them multiple times. Yes, it was fun the first few times, but after awhile the destination becomes more important than the journey in that regard.

So...do you, or have you ever played Monopoly? Life? Cribbage? Checkers? Minesweeper? Tetris? Donkey Kong?

Now. I want all you "Defenders of UMing" to listen to me very, very carefully...mmkay?

If you have EVER played ANY of these games...I want you to close your eyes for a sec...

Now...I want you to imagine yourself across the board from your opponent in a heated round of Monopoly.

You almost bankrupt your neighbor. You know they ONLY have 10 Monopoly dollars left. You get up to get a drink.

You come back, and the person that only had 10 Monopoly Dollars left, now has 10,0000, all of a sudden.

You ask why, all of a sudden, they have 10,000 Monopoly Dollars, when you just about bankrupted them on the last turn.

They tell you that they had it stashed.

You know for a fact that they did not have it stashed. You actually saw them take it out of their pocket...they brought it with them.

By the end of the game, the person that brought their own money wins. Surprise Surprise.

What a Great Player. Wow.

Now...how do you feel about playing with this person?

You gonna invite them back over?

How about a nice game of Magic!!!

You pull out your bad azz deck,. as does your opponent...and as you play, you watch your opponent take cards out of their pocket to counter your best moves...cards that weren't in the initial shuffle!

Wait...that's CHEATING!!!

They tell you..."No it's not!! If you think I like laying down the same cards over and over, and getting beat by you is fun, you are crazy. I am a little more resourceful that THAT!!. I just brought all my own extra cards this time...too bad YOUR resourcefulness is so lacking!!"

MY bet is that you wouldn't look them in the eye and say "Yeah...what was I thinking!! Even though the Published Rules for the game prohibit it, in writing, I should have thought "Outside the Box", to win. My bad."

My bet is that you would accuse THEM of cheating, or, at the very least, not want to play with them again. That's my bet.

Now...since we are on an anonymous forum, you can tell me "I would keep playing with someone like that!! It doesn't physically HURT me!!"...or "I would keep playing games with someone who breaks published rules....why not??!!"

Cheating is Cheating.

If the rules say it is cheating...then when you do it, no matter how you justify it, it's cheating.

Why do you think they put rules in games, anyway?

OK...one final analogy, to hopefully get the point across.

You train for a big foot race. You train for months.

You train every day, rain or shine. You also are training during Winter months, for a race on May 31st.

You are able to run the course in what would be a record time.

Now, the big day comes...you step out on the course, and get soundly thumped by a person you have never seen before.

After the race, you go walking off the track, and you overhear the winner telling their friend how great the steroids and other drugs they took for the race helped them.

You find out that the reason that person won, was because they broke the rules, and enhanced their performance.

You find out that every person in that person's family was a verified "no drug" winner, and they ALL trained "The Hard Way". That's why THIS person used performance drugs. "Every other person trained the old fashioned way. If you thing I am going to go that boring route, you are crazy!!"

See how F***** up that sounds? See how utterly skewed and biased that type of cheating mentality is? Maybe not.

But that still does NOT change the fact: Cheating is Cheating.

Why did Barry Bonds get stripped of his title in Baseball? He didn't "Hurt" anyone else, now, did he? HE took steroids...he didn't force them on others...right?

Because he was a Cheater. A Cheater that broke Published Rules.

The only difference between a person like Barry Bonds and people like you that tell the world you are cheating at a Video Game is this:

No one knows who you are.

If you had to look us all in the face across a table, playing D&D together, and I cheated, and you knew it...I doubt you would be so very nonchalant about it.

I assure you I would ask to have you removed from the game...the same exact action I am betting you would want taken...unless of course it was YOU that was cheating...because of "Repetitive Blah Blah Blah"...then it's

"OK".

You may never truly understand this...but at least I tried.

 

[Duskofdead]

I rejoined the game about three weeks ago. My main character is a mage who has inscription.

In about three weeks, my Inscription has reached 80.7 I probably on average make about 200 scrolls per day, though I've had sessions of making many more and some days where I didn't have time to make any. My pace has been more or less "natural" though, I don't consciously sit down to grind it out to 100 right this very moment. Though I do put in a little time everyday. I can probably make gate spells about 3, maybe 4 in 10 tries. I can make runebooks with some failure but they typically have somewhere between 10-12 charges (not the best, obviously.)

I have two vendors on my house.

Now, let's get into the theoretical. (As UOKaiser is so fond of doing when defending scripting.) Guy next door has an Inscription mage. He joined the same day as me. He also has two vendors on his house. He scripted Inscription from 0 - 100 in his first 36 hours in game. All this time he has been selling runebooks with 18 charges of exceptional quality, at the same price.

Is that fair competition? Does that "affect" me?

I'm a law/rules abiding person. I don't believe in joining some community endeavor, be it a game, a club, a PTA organization or whatever, and start breaking all the rules that might profit me to break. So for me, "well, unattended macro yourself to compete with the guy" is not a moral option.

I take issue with people who join a community game, but don't really want to be part of the community, or abide by the rules of the game. They want to be AHEAD of the community. They want to play with a single player mindset--- I should get the loot. I should be the most powerful or one of the most powerful. And I should get it fast. I don't understand why these people aren't just playing single player games with cheats and hacks. What is the point of playing a multiplayer game where there is an element of competition against other players (be it for resources, customers, performance, efficiency in farming, PvP, in game wealth, whatever) and cheat?

It's like putting tossed out coffee grind leftovers in a garbage bin into a new sack called "Gourmet Coffee." You'll fool some people but it's just an illusion that what you have is something special or better. You may get the same superficial result as the person who actually paid for gourmet coffee, but what you still have is a sack of leftover grinds in a fancy bag. That's how I think of people who need to cheat to "reach the top" in online, multiplayer games.

 

[Dryke GL]

it's totally different. if you break the rules in a video game the punishment is that you get banned. if they feel like it, EA can ban you for no reason at all.

obviously they don't do that because it would be bad for business.

There is a serious flaw in your logic here.

My argument is thus: A (stealing a car) affects B (raising insurance rates) in the same way that C (scripting) affects D (the in-game value of items and skills).

You are attempting to debunk my argument by attacking the premise that A (stealing a car) is the same as C (scripting). Unfortunately, I made no such argument. This is commonly known as the 'straw man' tactic - you create a faulty premise that you can easily attack, and by virtue of that attack attempt to show how the actual premise is faulty as well; the 'logic flaw' is that there is no actual connection between your self-created premise and the premise of the initial argument.

To return to my intial point: The analogy between these two seemingly unrelated activities - car theft and scripting - is that the people who commit such offenses commonly rationalize the behavior by pretending that it is ultimately 'victimless'. The facts, however, are fairly obvious; every time an insurance company has to pay out for a stolen car, that payout goes into the calculations the company makes when determining insurance rates; every time a scripter generates an item of value or creates a character with a skill inflated by AFK play, the overall value of that item or skill decreases as a result of the artificially increased supply.

There is no direct link that I am aware of (or that I am attempting to create) between 'car theft' and 'scripting'. I am simply pointing out that the mindset of the people justifying such behavior is quite similar.

 

[UOKaiser]

I rejoined the game about three weeks ago. My main character is a mage who has inscription.

In about three weeks, my Inscription has reached 80.7 I probably on average make about 200 scrolls per day, though I've had sessions of making many more and some days where I didn't have time to make any. My pace has been more or less "natural" though, I don't consciously sit down to grind it out to 100 right this very moment. Though I do put in a little time everyday. I can probably make gate spells about 3, maybe 4 in 10 tries. I can make runebooks with some failure but they typically have somewhere between 10-12 charges (not the best, obviously.)

I have two vendors on my house.

Now, let's get into the theoretical. (As UOKaiser is so fond of doing when defending scripting.) Guy next door has an Inscription mage. He joined the same day as me. He also has two vendors on his house. He scripted Inscription from 0 - 100 in his first 36 hours in game. All this time he has been selling runebooks with 18 charges of exceptional quality, at the same price.

Is that fair competition? Does that "affect" me?

I'm a law/rules abiding person. I don't believe in joining some community endeavor, be it a game, a club, a PTA organization or whatever, and start breaking all the rules that might profit me to break. So for me, "well, unattended macro yourself to compete with the guy" is not a moral option.

I take issue with people who join a community game, but don't really want to be part of the community, or abide by the rules of the game. They want to be AHEAD of the community. They want to play with a single player mindset--- I should get the loot. I should be the most powerful or one of the most powerful. And I should get it fast. I don't understand why these people aren't just playing single player games with cheats and hacks. What is the point of playing a multiplayer game where there is an element of competition against other players (be it for resources, customers, performance, efficiency in farming, PvP, in game wealth, whatever) and cheat?

It's like putting tossed out coffee grind leftovers in a garbage bin into a new sack called "Gourmet Coffee." You'll fool some people but it's just an illusion that what you have is something special or better. You may get the same superficial result as the person who actually paid for gourmet coffee, but what you still have is a sack of leftover grinds in a fancy bag. That's how I think of people who need to cheat to "reach the top" in online, multiplayer games.

You just came back? Then youre missing on alot of things. For example almost everyone who runs KR is faster than those in 2d then those in 2d call everyone speedhackers. Kr client has a feuture to practically make items and mark items untill a set amount is done practicaly looks like scripting. Cant wait for SA when scripting programs wont even be needed anymore from those who script.As you can see by my previous post am not defending scripting I am defending the innocent in all this. I am trying to keep the level of witch! witch! witch! youre a witch! down and keep people being sent to the stakes. Especially now in UO we are down to what 20k players or so? When you can practicaly recognize everyone on 1 of the most populated shards in UO there is a problem.
Now the inscription thing can easy be said with a neighbor with 3 venders that spend more time than you or buy books at cheaper cost or both and sells more than you for same or cheaper price. Dont think scripting really matters in that situation. Besides all the shops are in luna so you have to keep a careful market there. If someone places there products cheaper than you then great the best thing you do is buy up all his products and sell it higher in a more traffic area instant profit. If they sell the same as you then buy products and sell it higher in higher traffic area (luna). If they sell higher than you then you will always come on top the buyers will go to you or he will buy you out. win win.
Resource scripting at this moment the prices of ores are very high, higher than ever. Same thing if they sell hughe amounts of resources at dirt cheap prices then the smart merchant like myself wil go buy them out so much that not even they can keep up. Then resell at higher prices. If for some reason u dont have enough gold then join toghether with friends or youre guild and go crazy in keeping him empty while you sell all his resources in market price. If he sells it at market price already then thats where comp is but you still competing with everyone else at market price anyway so need to get creative. If he sells higher than market price then no need to worry.
So the effect in that is pretty much the same as the effect if there werent any scripters at all in the market. The merchants set the prices and the customers the demand. More demand higher prices. If anybody deviates from the market price that the customers and merchants set they will be bought out or left out of the merchant proccess.
Once again I only put reasons for things to keep the witch hunt down to a minimum and to try to keep players from becoming would be griefters that will drive out more of the innocent player base than the guilty.

 

[Nukeworker]

yeah, it's like vacation! the 20 hour drive is WAY more fun than actually being there!

anyway, who cares if someone is scripting begging?! like i asked the guy complaining about taming of atl or wherever... does it hurt you? do you feel like you have to be a hall monitor?

stop wasting time paging GM's and whining to devs about harmless activities.

it's like 911.

because of people like you, i end up being #25 in line when i have a legit problem (like my boat is completely stuck in the middle of the ocean) or (like my HH won't accept item insurance).

let it be. when it really begins to affect your game play, make a big deal about it. until then, stop wasting people's time with your crybabying.

Amen!!

I totally agree with you! Well this is my humble opinion about this

1. if you use scripts to mine or lumber then we could call this an unfair game play as it ruins resource prices:gun:

2.Lets say a player places a tamed cu then releases him on a boat to train archery while sitting on another boat nearby..And if decides to stay at the comp and read a book while doing this..What would we call this? attended macroing! But while doing this he is not hurting anyone...

3.My personal opinion is that OSI should loosen the rules about macroing or scripting to obtain skill gain..Some of us are actually working folks and we dont have the playing time to actually train his char or template so that we can also go to high end places where all the kids go Well you all can flame me for that statement!

4.We all are paying customers and we do should have some rights in this game...of course while not hurting others (see point number 1)

5. OK some of us are maybe not that patient when it comes to skill gains:bowdown:

6. Most of us come from democratic countries. The last thing we need in this game is a copy of a damn police state with people denunciating each other

To be honest I never did train a beggar before but I guess this person didnt script for gold. He was either macroing or scripting for skill gain...So why report a paying customer in this game for something like that? Well what we sure dont need is another pissed off player leaveing this game. From what I heard begging is a damn hard skill to train...So let him be!!!!!

 

[Connor_Graham]

I guess this person didnt script for gold. He was either macroing or scripting for skill gain...So why report a paying customer in this game for something like that?

Because he obviously did it in order to have a GM Beggar, and thus have access to the reward available ONLY to GM Beggars. Since he cheated and achieved GM illegally, and much faster than would be possible under normal gameplay, him receiving items that he would normally not have been able to receive, and in turn putting them up for sale, lowers the overall value of those items and hurts the wallets of those that trained the skill legally.

 

[Duskofdead]

Kr client has a feuture to practically make items and mark items untill a set amount is done practicaly looks like scripting.

I started on the KR client because when you download the free full trial client, that's your only option. I played two weeks in it but hated it off the bat and reinstalled my old original + T2A cd's and patched it up as far as it could go--- was playable, but I couldn't enter Malas or Tokuno or any of the new areas with that 2d install. A few days ago I found a site with Mondain's Legacy Client for download so I'm happily in full 2d again. I found KR better on only a very very short list of things but overall 2d is much more fun and has the original feel, and better macros that aren't buggy and stop working after a few reps.

So yes, I know precisely what you are talking about. Though there is absolutely no visual difference between "make max" in the KR client and simply hitting "Make Last" over and over in the 2d client, in terms of how you look to other players. Thing is, though, that the KR client STOPS THE PROCESS ALTOGETHER as soon as you have 1 failure. So if you are trying to make something that gives you skill gain (say something with a 42% failure chance) you are likely to hit that about every other attempt. Thus stopping the process. In other words EITHER PROCESS, sans the use of third party programs or scripts, requires manual attention to the process in order to continue for long periods of time. So "pretending" like the KR client is the reason we see people idle and engaging in some repetitious activity for 24 hours straight in the same spot in Luna is a bit of a stretch, even for me as a newly returned person. If you're talking about the "enable repeating" feature of KR's macros, that tops out at 10 attempts. So yes if you see someone casting mark every 1.5 seconds a bunch of times in a row, that may very well just be a macro. If you see them alternating that and meditation nonstop for 72 hours in the same room in Luna... well, I doubt very much it's a player sitting there doing it.

Cant wait for SA when scripting programs wont even be needed anymore from those who script.

They're not needed anyway. There are merely a crutch for lazy, selfish players who feel that they are entitled to jump ahead of everyone else in the line.

As you can see by my previous post am not defending scripting I am defending the innocent in all this. I am trying to keep the level of witch! witch! witch! youre a witch! down and keep people being sent to the stakes.

That's b.s. Exactly how hard would it be to answer even if there was strict GM enforcement and you were asked a question directly by a GM? If your character is "doing something", and you aren't there to answer a question, you are UNATTENDED MACROING. Whether you are using a script, an illegal program, or a roll of quarters taped down on the spacebar while you go smoke some crystal. Where your super-paranoia about how this will turn into a witchhunt after apparently years of TOTAL NONENFORCEMENT comes from is a mystery. Other than to assume that this is a behavior you have a vested interest in keeping unmolested.

Especially now in UO we are down to what 20k players or so? When you can practicaly recognize everyone on 1 of the most populated shards in UO there is a problem.

You think cheating encourages players to stay? You are operating off the assumption that a significant portion of the existing, and potentially returning, customer base are already cheaters, and will cancel their accounts if GM's bump them offline if caught unattended macroing. And if they do... good riddance. And if you're right, and most people cheat, well, how much of a game is really worth saving at that point?

You know, when I originally played, UO was at more like 200k+ subscriptions. Guess what one of the top reasons I heard people say they were quitting because of? So has a blind eye towards cheating helped the game in the last seven years or so, would you guesstimate?

Now the inscription thing can easy be said with a neighbor with 3 venders that spend more time on you or buy books at cheaper cost or both and sells more than you for same or cheaper price. Dont think scripting really matters in that situation.

B.S. You make up any possible wiggle room to essentially vindicate scripting of having any effect whatsoever on the game world. You saw the scenario I created. I didn't say someone who played more than me, or bought in more bulk, or was on speed and could stay up all night. I said someone who started the same time as me, with the same character, and scripted his inscription to 100 in his first 2-3 days whereas I have gotten to Inscription 80.7 in about three weeks of relatively normal progress. (I'm sure I could have really spent all my game time doing inscription and maybe reached the same point in I dunno, five or six days? But that's neither here nor there really.)

By the way: Scripting SIDESTEPS THE ENTIRE TIME ISSUE. Maybe that person with the vendor house next door plays LESS than me, but is ahead of me, selling better items. Hell, maybe that person only plays 20 minutes a week. It was pretty careless of you to mention the time issue seeing as how it shoots your argument in the foot. SCRIPTING makes TIME /EFFORT SPENT IRRELEVANT because you can just set up the script and go to bed, and jump ahead of someone who's actually PLAYING.

Maybe that person plays ONE MINUTE a week, for all I know. He doesn't need to be at the computer at all to script his skills up.

That would be fair in your estimation, and no problem whatosever, and no effect on the game economy, for someone who plays 10 minutes a week (to buy ingredients and stock a vendor and then set his scripts going) to far surpass someone who plays four hours a day in terms of results? Give me a break.

By the way, if someone did the same thing "through playing more", that's fine. They're not cheating. We're talking about people PLAYING LESS and SCRIPTING MORE to get ahead of others, out-compete them for resources and item acquisition and progress and skill gain.

So the effect in that is pretty much the same as the effect if there werent any scripters at all in the market. The merchants set the prices and the customers the demand. More demand higher prices. If anybody deviates from the market price that the customers and merchants set they will be bought out or left out of the merchant proccess.

No it isn't. Scripting DRIVES the economy because people getting their crafting to 100+ before they even open their vendor house means there is an artificially high supply of the very best items, and artificially decreased demand for EVERYTHING ELSE (i.e. what a normal player would be making while they level up their skills.)

If every single person accepted to med school immediately gained Matrix-esque full knowledge and abilities as a neurobrain surgeon.... what do you suppose that would do to the cost and availability of brain surgery? And what would happen to all the people who spent 12 years becoming qualified brain surgeons?

Once again I only put reasons for things to keep the witch hunt down to a minimum and to try to keep players from becoming would be griefters that will drive out more of the innocent player base than the guilty.

Translation: "I don't want them to ever actually punish me for breaking the rules."

There is no witch hunt going on, and so I can see no other way to take your repeated insistence that any enforcement of already existing, frequently broken rules would just be a "witch hunt."

 

[Wenchkin]

So...do you, or have you ever played Monopoly? Life? Cribbage? Checkers? Minesweeper? Tetris? Donkey Kong?

Now. I want all you "Defenders of UMing" to listen to me very, very carefully...mmkay?

If you have EVER played ANY of these games...I want you to close your eyes for a sec...

Now...I want you to imagine yourself across the board from your opponent in a heated round of Monopoly.

You almost bankrupt your neighbor. You know they ONLY have 10 Monopoly dollars left. You get up to get a drink.

You come back, and the person that only had 10 Monopoly Dollars left, now has 10,0000, all of a sudden.

You ask why, all of a sudden, they have 10,000 Monopoly Dollars, when you just about bankrupted them on the last turn.

They tell you that they had it stashed.

You know for a fact that they did not have it stashed. You actually saw them take it out of their pocket...they brought it with them.

By the end of the game, the person that brought their own money wins. Surprise Surprise.

What a Great Player. Wow.

Now...how do you feel about playing with this person?

You gonna invite them back over?

How about a nice game of Magic!!!

You pull out your bad azz deck,. as does your opponent...and as you play, you watch your opponent take cards out of their pocket to counter your best moves...cards that weren't in the initial shuffle!

Wait...that's CHEATING!!!

They tell you..."No it's not!! If you think I like laying down the same cards over and over, and getting beat by you is fun, you are crazy. I am a little more resourceful that THAT!!. I just brought all my own extra cards this time...too bad YOUR resourcefulness is so lacking!!"

MY bet is that you wouldn't look them in the eye and say "Yeah...what was I thinking!! Even though the Published Rules for the game prohibit it, in writing, I should have thought "Outside the Box", to win. My bad."

My bet is that you would accuse THEM of cheating, or, at the very least, not want to play with them again. That's my bet.

Now...since we are on an anonymous forum, you can tell me "I would keep playing with someone like that!! It doesn't physically HURT me!!"...or "I would keep playing games with someone who breaks published rules....why not??!!"

Cheating is Cheating.

If the rules say it is cheating...then when you do it, no matter how you justify it, it's cheating.

Why do you think they put rules in games, anyway?

OK...one final analogy, to hopefully get the point across.

You train for a big foot race. You train for months.

You train every day, rain or shine. You also are training during Winter months, for a race on May 31st.

You are able to run the course in what would be a record time.

Now, the big day comes...you step out on the course, and get soundly thumped by a person you have never seen before.

After the race, you go walking off the track, and you overhear the winner telling their friend how great the steroids and other drugs they took for the race helped them.

You find out that the reason that person won, was because they broke the rules, and enhanced their performance.

You find out that every person in that person's family was a verified "no drug" winner, and they ALL trained "The Hard Way". That's why THIS person used performance drugs. "Every other person trained the old fashioned way. If you thing I am going to go that boring route, you are crazy!!"

See how F***** up that sounds? See how utterly skewed and biased that type of cheating mentality is? Maybe not.

But that still does NOT change the fact: Cheating is Cheating.

Why did Barry Bonds get stripped of his title in Baseball? He didn't "Hurt" anyone else, now, did he? HE took steroids...he didn't force them on others...right?

Because he was a Cheater. A Cheater that broke Published Rules.

The only difference between a person like Barry Bonds and people like you that tell the world you are cheating at a Video Game is this:

No one knows who you are.

If you had to look us all in the face across a table, playing D&D together, and I cheated, and you knew it...I doubt you would be so very nonchalant about it.

I assure you I would ask to have you removed from the game...the same exact action I am betting you would want taken...unless of course it was YOU that was cheating...because of "Repetitive Blah Blah Blah"...then it's

"OK".

You may never truly understand this...but at least I tried.

Seriously, I think that's the best post I've read on the subject of cheating. Nice one

*bows*

Wenchy

 

[ElRay]

I fail to see the difference between cheating by scripting and cheating by duping. Either way, if you buy from that person who is cheating, you are supporting cheating.

So, by your logic, the devs of this game that do nothing about cheating and scripting, are also SUPPORTING cheating/scripting because they choose to do nothing about it.

So who gives a flying fk who cheats in this game?

If the devs dont care, why should players?

Run this pancake into the ground I say, at least until we see that the people who run this show(devs) actually know how to program/or care to.

 

[WootSauce]

LONG SPEIL ABOUT GAMES WHERE SOMEONE IS INTENDED TO WIN.

So um... let me know when you win UO, or has someone already scripted their way there and beat you out?

( Minus the D&D reference of course. My gaming group would have dumped your mountain dew all over you if you were caught cheating )

 

[Connor_Graham]

( Minus the D&D reference of course. My gaming group would have dumped your mountain dew all over you if you were caught cheating )

Wow. You guys went easy on em. The group I hung out with would take you outside and show you that a Monster Manual AND a DM's guide really would fit into the puckered orifice, and with no lubrication no less.

 

[WootSauce]

Recipie for Gamer version of the traditional "tar and feather" torture:

Step 1 - subdue and bind errant gamer
Step 2 - cover errant gamer generously with soda (preferably mountian dew and preferably theirs, so as not to diminish your own supply)
let sugar beverage soak and set for approx 5 minutes
Step 3 - roll subdued, errrant gamer in snackfood (again preferably theirs and preferably cheetoos)
Step 4 - Display bound errant gamer to the world (tie to a fire hydrant or lamp post preferably in a high traffic area)

 

[OnlyMoi]

Cheating is cheating, regardless of what is being done, how it's being done, where it's being done, who is doing it. It is against the ToS so shouldn't even be considered. EA, however, does not seem to care. GM's give canned responses. Bans are few and far between.

To page or not to page? THAT is the question!

 

[UOKaiser]

I started on the KR client because when you download the free full trial client, that's your only option. I played two weeks in it but hated it off the bat and reinstalled my old original + T2A cd's and patched it up as far as it could go--- was playable, but I couldn't enter Malas or Tokuno or any of the new areas with that 2d install. A few days ago I found a site with Mondain's Legacy Client for download so I'm happily in full 2d again. I found KR better on only a very very short list of things but overall 2d is much more fun and has the original feel, and better macros that aren't buggy and stop working after a few reps.

So yes, I know precisely what you are talking about. Though there is absolutely no visual difference between "make max" in the KR client and simply hitting "Make Last" over and over in the 2d client, in terms of how you look to other players. Thing is, though, that the KR client STOPS THE PROCESS ALTOGETHER as soon as you have 1 failure. So if you are trying to make something that gives you skill gain (say something with a 42% failure chance) you are likely to hit that about every other attempt. Thus stopping the process. In other words EITHER PROCESS, sans the use of third party programs or scripts, requires manual attention to the process in order to continue for long periods of time. So "pretending" like the KR client is the reason we see people idle and engaging in some repetitious activity for 24 hours straight in the same spot in Luna is a bit of a stretch, even for me as a newly returned person. If you're talking about the "enable repeating" feature of KR's macros, that tops out at 10 attempts. So yes if you see someone casting mark every 1.5 seconds a bunch of times in a row, that may very well just be a macro. If you see them alternating that and meditation nonstop for 72 hours in the same room in Luna... well, I doubt very much it's a player sitting there doing it.



They're not needed anyway. There are merely a crutch for lazy, selfish players who feel that they are entitled to jump ahead of everyone else in the line.



That's b.s. Exactly how hard would it be to answer even if there was strict GM enforcement and you were asked a question directly by a GM? If your character is "doing something", and you aren't there to answer a question, you are UNATTENDED MACROING. Whether you are using a script, an illegal program, or a roll of quarters taped down on the spacebar while you go smoke some crystal. Where your super-paranoia about how this will turn into a witchhunt after apparently years of TOTAL NONENFORCEMENT comes from is a mystery. Other than to assume that this is a behavior you have a vested interest in keeping unmolested.



You think cheating encourages players to stay? You are operating off the assumption that a significant portion of the existing, and potentially returning, customer base are already cheaters, and will cancel their accounts if GM's bump them offline if caught unattended macroing. And if they do... good riddance. And if you're right, and most people cheat, well, how much of a game is really worth saving at that point?

You know, when I originally played, UO was at more like 200k+ subscriptions. Guess what one of the top reasons I heard people say they were quitting because of? So has a blind eye towards cheating helped the game in the last seven years or so, would you guesstimate?



B.S. You make up any possible wiggle room to essentially vindicate scripting of having any effect whatsoever on the game world. You saw the scenario I created. I didn't say someone who played more than me, or bought in more bulk, or was on speed and could stay up all night. I said someone who started the same time as me, with the same character, and scripted his inscription to 100 in his first 2-3 days whereas I have gotten to Inscription 80.7 in about three weeks of relatively normal progress. (I'm sure I could have really spent all my game time doing inscription and maybe reached the same point in I dunno, five or six days? But that's neither here nor there really.)

By the way: Scripting SIDESTEPS THE ENTIRE TIME ISSUE. Maybe that person with the vendor house next door plays LESS than me, but is ahead of me, selling better items. Hell, maybe that person only plays 20 minutes a week. It was pretty careless of you to mention the time issue seeing as how it shoots your argument in the foot. SCRIPTING makes TIME /EFFORT SPENT IRRELEVANT because you can just set up the script and go to bed, and jump ahead of someone who's actually PLAYING.

Maybe that person plays ONE MINUTE a week, for all I know. He doesn't need to be at the computer at all to script his skills up.

That would be fair in your estimation, and no problem whatosever, and no effect on the game economy, for someone who plays 10 minutes a week (to buy ingredients and stock a vendor and then set his scripts going) to far surpass someone who plays four hours a day in terms of results? Give me a break.

By the way, if someone did the same thing "through playing more", that's fine. They're not cheating. We're talking about people PLAYING LESS and SCRIPTING MORE to get ahead of others, out-compete them for resources and item acquisition and progress and skill gain.



No it isn't. Scripting DRIVES the economy because people getting their crafting to 100+ before they even open their vendor house means there is an artificially high supply of the very best items, and artificially decreased demand for EVERYTHING ELSE (i.e. what a normal player would be making while they level up their skills.)

If every single person accepted to med school immediately gained Matrix-esque full knowledge and abilities as a neurobrain surgeon.... what do you suppose that would do to the cost and availability of brain surgery? And what would happen to all the people who spent 12 years becoming qualified brain surgeons?



Translation: "I don't want them to ever actually punish me for breaking the rules."

There is no witch hunt going on, and so I can see no other way to take your repeated insistence that any enforcement of already existing, frequently broken rules would just be a "witch hunt."

Quite a bit to go through and im sure we both can go back and forth debating this. But we do have a misunderstanding. my point of view
1) I believe enforcement should be done by gm and not player vigilante.
2) Players usually dont answer other players cause there busy, tired of answering the 100 player checking if there unattended or they are unattended or any other reason place there.
3)I dont support players who check you there gm shows up confirms you there and player believes gm didnt do anything so they hunt the player everywhere they go.
4) I dont support players who talks to a player the player says hi or whatever then the player wants to torment some one so they find a way to make a living hell using scripting as a false pretense.
5) I support gm having to do what they have to do
6)those players who cheat have absolutly no effect on me unless they dupe. Im sure it has effect on others but everyone is different.
7)resource scripters try to bring the price down for players. I am a merchant so I want to keep price up now you see we are in conflict. But I know how to use those players and those who don't know how to price to my advantage.
8) I pretty much have everything i need and enough to sell for years to come. Raised all the skills I needed naturaly since before power hour and have then stored the new skills they are easy to raise with macros now that finaly the dev in there wisdom remove the anti-macro code no more boat training. Though i love playing every template and being a merchant plus filling bods for surprises.
9) All I ask if you page on someone unless they get wifed away dont believe them a scripter. If they talk to you theres no need to check them every 5 min. If just one innocent player gets fed up and quit then the whole vigilate system is corruped.
10) I dont care what anybody does in the game unless they grief,dupe,scam. As those things damage the player base and me immensly.
11) Oh those golem people dont need to use a scrip they only have to stand there cap there phy ressit and wear alot of hp increase and hp regen (bracelet of health) wonderful or just heal them selves and repair golem every 8 hours or so. Sure script can do that and make it easier but don't need it.
12) Finaly lets just agree to disagree as i have a more mild objective view on "cheaters" And you have a more inquisitator type hammer for them. I rather have some cheaters get away than to imprison 1 innocent. Nobody is 100% when trying to identify a player.

If we all put cheaters in the same category then we should all be arrested in real life. Stop Downloading Music You Thieves!!!!

 

[Cailleach]

So, UOKaiser, what you're basically saying there is 'I'm ok, so f**k everyone else'. Nice attitude. I really hope that's only your gaming attitude, cos if it spills into your rl, you must really really suck as a person.

Cheating is cheating. If the GM's won't deal, then the players will. Make EA enforce their own rules or live with it. Cheaters hurt everyone - it's a knock on effect thing; like shoplifters, burglars or even paedophiles. It all has an effect, although you may not be able to immediately work it out. I'm pretty law/rule abiding myself - I can see the logic and the sense, so I choose to abide by the rules. Choose not to and on your own head be it, really. And, for the record, I don't, I really don't, care if 100 or 500 or 5000 players come and talk to me while I train, I'll respond because I'm there. If I'm training, say, alchemy, in my house, (or doing a pot run, since my alchemy is now GM) I hide, set a macro, read a book, or do some beading in between punching the button. I'm still there, I'm still hitting the button (despite the carpal tunnel, and I'll be happy to provide a pic of the bi lateral release scars) and I'll still check the screen every few mins, in case one of the guildies needs me or someone stops by. Point being, of course, I'm there.


If you can't play the game without cheating, sod off and play something a little less demanding. Really. I doubt we'll notice your absence. And if we do, well, I'm sure we'll cope. This attitude of 'I want it now, and I'm not gonna work for it' so typifies a lot of the attitudes around the world. You know, if it's worth having, rl or game, it's bloody well worth working for, and if you're too damned lazy, that's your problem. You don't get to break the rules just because you can't be arsed. Every skill I have, rl or game, I've worked for and learnt and sometimes taught to myself. If you can't do that, you're in the wrong game.

 

[Nexus]

stealing a car is illegal IRL and can land you in prison. scripting in a video game is not.

HUGE difference.

Think of it this way, Blizzard sued the company that makes a Bot Engine used in WoW and won $6 million, it's not a far leap to suggest that companies in the future might sue players to compensate them for wages spent on Developers trying to combat script engines, GM's confiscating illegal items and investigating Scriptors.

If that was to happen would you have an issue with it then?

 

[Cailleach]

Think of it this way, Blizzard sued the company that makes a Bot Engine used in WoW and won $6 million, it's not a far leap to suggest that companies in the future might sue players to compensate them for wages spent on Developers trying to combat script engines, GM's confiscating illegal items and investigating Scriptors.

If that was to happen would you have an issue with it then?

Hmm, that would, of course, be based on the assumption that paging a GM means that one actually turns up?

 

[WootSauce]

I'm still there, I'm still hitting the button (despite the carpal tunnel, and I'll be happy to provide a pic of the bi lateral release scars) and I'll still check the screen every few mins, in case one of the guildies needs me or someone stops by. Point being, of course, I'm there.

Ok you are a war veteren of an online game, just dying to show off your war wounds - crusading against people who are smart enough to avoid carpal tunnel. Congrats!!

I mean really? Come on now this isn't even funny any more.

 

[Zooithion]

Golems, agreed. I don't understand why this has been ignored either.

-

& while I'm here: I'd also really like to hear why the Devs. have not altered golems yet; and please don't tell me it is for the sake of realism. Are unattended weapon skill gains truly meant to be a matter of purchasing a weapon that allows such?

 

[UOKaiser]

So, UOKaiser, what you're basically saying there is 'I'm ok, so f**k everyone else'. Nice attitude. I really hope that's only your gaming attitude, cos if it spills into your rl, you must really really suck as a person.

Cheating is cheating. If the GM's won't deal, then the players will. Make EA enforce their own rules or live with it. Cheaters hurt everyone - it's a knock on effect thing; like shoplifters, burglars or even paedophiles. It all has an effect, although you may not be able to immediately work it out. I'm pretty law/rule abiding myself - I can see the logic and the sense, so I choose to abide by the rules. Choose not to and on your own head be it, really. And, for the record, I don't, I really don't, care if 100 or 500 or 5000 players come and talk to me while I train, I'll respond because I'm there. If I'm training, say, alchemy, in my house, (or doing a pot run, since my alchemy is now GM) I hide, set a macro, read a book, or do some beading in between punching the button. I'm still there, I'm still hitting the button (despite the carpal tunnel, and I'll be happy to provide a pic of the bi lateral release scars) and I'll still check the screen every few mins, in case one of the guildies needs me or someone stops by. Point being, of course, I'm there.


If you can't play the game without cheating, sod off and play something a little less demanding. Really. I doubt we'll notice your absence. And if we do, well, I'm sure we'll cope. This attitude of 'I want it now, and I'm not gonna work for it' so typifies a lot of the attitudes around the world. You know, if it's worth having, rl or game, it's bloody well worth working for, and if you're too damned lazy, that's your problem. You don't get to break the rules just because you can't be arsed. Every skill I have, rl or game, I've worked for and learnt and sometimes taught to myself. If you can't do that, you're in the wrong game.

I dont think you get me. If I pass by you while you training a golem I don't care you know why? because I rather play the game and fight a peerless collect some leather whith my guild in despise and the numerous of things there is to do in the game. If you sell youre resources cheaper than me i will buy them and sell them higher I dont care if you got it legit or scripted it doesnt matter i dont have time to write a documentary on how each player i get Items from gets them. If you trained youre skill from scratch congrats so did i many years ago but i dont care how you train them now or if you do. If you scam my friend or try to scam me i will care. If you grief me I will care, If you violet the rule of cursing me out I dont care. If you scam someone else I dont know I dont care cause I wouldnt know any way.
If you involve youre time to ask me questions I will answer them if I have time if not I'll ask you to come back later. If youre scripting in my mining cave I don't care cause I have 3 dozen more whith 6 vein areas. If you bought every house in the shard I will say wow dont know if I care or dont but good work. If you stiop to see if im scripting and if i have time I will start talking to you about useless things for as long as you stay there being the annoying person at the party. If I don't feel like talking I will wait for the gm to come sa I can answert his questions and he leave. If you do it again I will engage you in my pointless conversation.
If im doing a group activity then I will care about the group activity. If a player starts duping i cant fix that so I whith draw my items and wait till the dupe is fix then wait till prices start going up hopefully which i do care cause it really does effect everyone badly. But mostly what you do with youre time in game and rl doesnt concern me cause it's really non of my business i play for fun . When that day comes that i don't have fun anymore I will leave cause if my game becomes work then what will be the point I will need another game to releive me of the stress of Uo which relieves me the stress of rl.

 

[Cailleach]

Ok you are a war veteren of an online game, just dying to show off your war wounds - crusading against people who are smart enough to avoid carpal tunnel. Congrats!!

I mean really? Come on now this isn't even funny any more.

Nope. Didn't get carpal tunnel from the game.

 

[Cailleach]

I dont think you get me. If I pass by you while you training a golem I don't care you know why? because I rather play the game and fight a peerless collect some leather whith my guild in despise and the numerous of things there is to do in the game. If you sell youre resources cheaper than me i will buy them and sell them higher I dont care if you got it legit or scripted it doesnt matter i dont have time to write a documentary on how each player i get Items from gets them. If you trained youre skill from scratch congrats so did i many years ago but i dont care how you train them now or if you do. If you scam my friend or try to scam me i will care. If you grief me I will care, If you violet the rule of cursing me out I dont care. If you scam someone else I dont know I dont care cause I wouldnt know any way.
If you involve youre time to ask me questions I will answer them if I have time if not I'll ask you to come back later. If youre scripting in my mining cave I don't care cause I have 3 dozen more whith 6 vein areas. If you bought every house in the shard I will say wow dont know if I care or dont but good work. If you stiop to see if im scripting and if i have time I will start talking to you about useless things for as long as you stay there being the annoying person at the party. If I don't feel like talking I will wait for the gm to come sa I can answert his questions and he leave. If you do it again I will engage you in my pointless conversation.
If im doing a group activity then I will care about the group activity. If a player starts duping i cant fix that so I whith draw my items and wait till the dupe is fix then wait till prices start going up hopefully which i do care cause it really does effect everyone badly. But mostly what you do with youre time in game and rl doesnt concern me cause it's really non of my business i play for fun . When that day comes that i don't have fun anymore I will leave cause if my game becomes work then what will be the point I will need another game to releive me of the stress of Uo which relieves me the stress of rl.

Mmm, like I said, nice attitude.

 

[Connor_Graham]

crusading against people who are smart enough to avoid carpal tunnel

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but cheating in a video game isn't a sign of intelligence.

 

[thechoppa]

Yes, I agree. OK, cheating is cheating, but there's a difference between this use of unattended to raise a skill - same as training resist from the spectral spellbinders - and on the other hand, scripting resource-gathering.

The first one doesn't affect me - no really it DOESN'T!!! - what's the difference to me whether it's attended or unattended?????????

The second DOES affect me - like, it stops me from gathering in those places. (OK, BE picky and tell me I can gather elsewhere! If you have to raise that point, you won't understand my reply to it, so don't even bother).

Player A trains trains parry, swords healing, ect. for weeks. He doesn't feel like training poisoning as many of his friends told him poisoning is the most hard and annoying skill to train.

Player B trains trains parry, swords healing, ect. for weeks and UMs poisoning while he is at work/sleeping. He knows he wouldn't have the patience to manually train such a hard skill.

Player A gets the lethal poison while fighting player B, is unable to remove it, and dies.

Player B talks smack about how player A sucks at the game.

 

[Omnius]

I gmed poisoning the old fashioned way. My experience with the skill leads me to believe I should have cheated and scripted it. I've never seen a pvper who couldn't remove lethal poison.

Is poisoning, as it currently works, worth even a tenth of the effort it requires to gain in? No, It is not.

 

[Redxpanda]

I don't deny the fact that scripting is a serious problem and it is one of the things that is wrecking this game but it really has become pointless to complain about it. Remember our favorite (please dont kill me) painted caves friends. I guarantee you they are still farming away. Besides that, this game has many MANY issues (some more important that scripting) that seem to go ignored and unfixed. Just let it go and enjoy the game because protest and complaints usually get filed under maybe tomorrow.