A way to effectively balance tamers in PvP without effecting PvM

[ATLPvPer]

Alright, so lets take a look at average monster hit points; a Rotting Corpse has about 1200 hit points, so you need to be able to do a good amount of damage to him, lest you sit there and fight him all day.
A Baracoon, while I'm not positive after the champ spawn upgrade, probably has around 10000 HP. Thus, again, if you are a tamer it is nice to have a pet that can do sufficient damage to him. This is well and good.

A player-character, on the other hand, does not have this many hit points. I run on a high-end PvP suit, and thus have around 120 HP. HP range on a player-character can run anywhere from 100-140 , or a bit below or bit above. Thus, let us take a look at the damage output of a Greater Dragon or Dread Mare compared to the hit points of a PvP Combatant player character.

So, I am walking along and say I see a Tamer, and I get bola'd. The pet is on me before I am off mount, I attempt to heal myself or run away but then I get smacked with a bola. The dragon is immediately much faster than I, and automatically hits me with a bleed and 35 physical damage. By this time I am on foot with tamer chasing and Super Dragon chasing and I have no chance to invis or hide, especially since I am bleeding. At 120 HP, I am already down to 85. Now, I get hit immediately after the claws by a fireball. This thing does anywhere from 45 to a whopping 65 damage! Keep in mind , I am wearing an ALL 70s suit and am not even cursed. Also this fireball can hit me two screens away, due to a combat bug with player pets. Now I am down to 25 HP. Now, imagine that the guy who attacked me did not just bola me, but also dismounted me with a bow, doing another 25 damage with his heavy-xbow dismount. I am dead in literally THREE seconds with ZERO chance of survival. In no situation in UO should there be ZERO chance of survival in a 1v1, aka you can't even run away! A pet cannot be fizzled like a mage, nor does it have to take time to cast a spell, it can literally pump out a flamestrike and 65 damage fireball at the same time.

The same is true of a dread-mare, its physical attack doing less but the fireball still doing 45 damage to me, with a mage or archer atop it firing at me non-stop.

So, here is my proposition. Like I mentioned , tamers need to do mass damage in PvM, to monsters with A LOT of hit points. Player characters, on the other hand, do NOT have a lot of hit points. In most cases they have 10-20% of the HP of a monster. Yet, I will add in human-intelligence and difficulty to the situation, thus humans are a bit harder then monsters. So, against human player characters pets should only do 50% of the damage that they do to monsters. This applies on both facets, yet the damage done to monsters on both facets by Player tamers' pets will NOT change. The damage done by a PvP tamer in fel or a tamer fighting around with guild mates in tram will be halved from his pet. The fireball won't hit for 65, but rather 33. This is still a large amount of damage, especially for a spell that can hit players from TWO screens away (which is a bug that also needs fixed)

 

[Dunarrack]

Tamers today are like the good old WoD AI instant kill archer, 4-sec unbreakable nerve strike->all kill->death strike instant kill gimp and those kind.

Each group had their reasons(or excuses) saying that they are OK and nerf is completely rediculous because for 5 people focus insta-kill is ok. I remember WoD AI archer said "it's hard to find other players to do a focus so me instant kill any player of my choice is fine", nerve strike gimplet said "It's hard to find a good hit lighting bok and you have to be melee range to hit them with nerve and death strike.

Tamers used to say "Taming is one of the hardest and slowest skil to train, thus me killing anyone instantly is ok" now it's often using "it affects pvm even tho most of the ideas to balance them in PvP had nothing to do with pvm. (e.g pet dmg cap against PLAYERS ONLY).

even half damage to player a chained and INSTANT Melee+FSFS+fire breathe can still take out 100 hp EASY, assuming the tamer didnt do jack and the pets are doing 100% of the work. (of course if tamers did it right they can still instant kill anyone with right RNG involved (its zero RL skill and completely random).

I dont know how can this GD/Dread pvp retardness can be fixed we will just have to try and survive.

 

[Chrille]

If it actuallly worked this way, so many more people should have been here complaining. You can still just outrun the drag so easily thats this is nothing thats the pvp community bothers about. Wod ai was one attadck which instally dealth 100+ damage this is nothing even close to that. 3 secs... with all new trinkets thats a lifetime of old days.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Pets should be made to follow the same rules as players when hitting players.
Stopping to cast, spell/specials at same time, damage caps.

 

[ATLPvPer]

If it actuallly worked this way, so many more people should have been here complaining. You can still just outrun the drag so easily thats this is nothing thats the pvp community bothers about. Wod ai was one attadck which instally dealth 100+ damage this is nothing even close to that. 3 secs... with all new trinkets thats a lifetime of old days.

Really? What trinket is going to save me?? You saying everyone should HAVE to use ninja/stealthing just because of tamers?? There are many people here complaining, why dont you look at the threads on the first page. Some won't complain because they are running the super-dragon tamer template and of course they don't want the fix. So, Chrille, since you are obviously here to argue logically, how do I outrun a super dragon when I am on foot, being bled, and he can fire spells WITHOUT STOPPING and fire spells TWO SCREEN AWAY??? How do I outrun that? Exactly.

 

[slayer888]

Cap all damage of pets to PLAYER = 35

This does not apply to the following:-

1. monster
2. npc
3. Player's pet


In additional, Dev should look and fix the Player's Armor Ignore only doing 35 damage cap on player's PET.

 

[Helmgar]

Pvp tamers, I suppose are a way of killing players who don't know how to pvp. It is very easy to get away from a greater dragon, even on foot. There should be no way that it can bite you if you are on the run. Unless of course you are on a slow connection.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Cap all damage of pets to PLAYER = 35

This does not apply to the following:-

1. monster
2. npc
3. Player's pet


In additional, Dev should look and fix the Player's Armor Ignore only doing 35 damage cap on player's PET.

I can live with this...as long as ALL PvP damage is equally capped.

Why should your uber l337 bow do 60 damage to me, but my pet can only do 35 to you?

A lot of you scream for balance, but in reality you seek dominance through favoritism.

 

[Nylan]

Tamers today are like the good old WoD AI instant kill archer, 4-sec unbreakable nerve strike->all kill->death strike instant kill gimp and those kind.

Each group had their reasons(or excuses) saying that they are OK and nerf is completely rediculous because for 5 people focus insta-kill is ok. I remember WoD AI archer said "it's hard to find other players to do a focus so me instant kill any player of my choice is fine", nerve strike gimplet said "It's hard to find a good hit lighting bok and you have to be melee range to hit them with nerve and death strike.

Tamers used to say "Taming is one of the hardest and slowest skil to train, thus me killing anyone instantly is ok" now it's often using "it affects pvm even tho most of the ideas to balance them in PvP had nothing to do with pvm. (e.g pet dmg cap against PLAYERS ONLY).

even half damage to player a chained and INSTANT Melee+FSFS+fire breathe can still take out 100 hp EASY, assuming the tamer didnt do jack and the pets are doing 100% of the work. (of course if tamers did it right they can still instant kill anyone with right RNG involved (its zero RL skill and completely random).

I dont know how can this GD/Dread pvp retardness can be fixed we will just have to try and survive.

When ever they change things for PvP it effects PvM.

Look at the pet ball changes, there is now a delay and you can be interrupted when using them.
You can not now use them when hidden or invised.
You can not command you pet while hidden or invised anymore.

These "features" were added for PvP not for PvM.

I agree that the damage a pet puts out is too much for PvP, but when they start making changes it always seems to bled over to the opposite side.

A hard cap I think would be the way to go, but how long before that is not enough?

 

[Yalp]

I can live with this...as long as ALL PvP damage is equally capped.

Why should your uber l337 bow do 60 damage to me, but my pet can only do 35 to you?

A lot of you scream for balance, but in reality you seek dominance through favoritism.

Amen!

 

[drinkbeerallday]

I think taming is underpowered actually. As a tamer they have to have a few macros. The most important is All Kill. Once you do this you actually have to target the person. People are running around all over. This can be REALLY HARD TO DO!! Once you target them your pet could get peacemake since most PvP'ers have peacemaking. Then you could get hit by another PvP'er. As a tamer it is hard to decide what to do when someone casts a spell or starts attacking. I think pets should have a special spell Full Human Heal. Whenever the pet's owner gets attacked the pet will cast Full Human Heal on the owner. This is not affected by poison or anything. This way the human can hit the All Kill macro and try to target the teenagers who are trying to kill honest tamers.

It's not fair that a tamer takes damage when it has this huge dragon protecting. Right?

 

[archite666]

Finally you production shard guys see what we SIEGERS were complaining about constantly a year ago.

A dragons firebreath usually hits for 60 from several screens away, its insane.

Sorry for you pvmers but in PVP taming is overpowered, bola+all kill is absolutly broken, especially when combined with stealth.

Right now, Hiding+stealth+ninja and taming+anything is the most broken thing in pvp, I wish the devs would listen to us vets who actually know what were talking about.

Not trying to insult anyone but if you think taming is underpowered you do not know how to play.

Run stealth, hiding,ninja, taming, lore and vet.

Drink potions
Wear HP regen armor
Use smoke bomb macro
Run around in animal form like llama
Jump outta form and bola
Throw poisoned shurikens at mount and target

If your target is like the best pvper ever and actually gets away, jump into animal form and block him while your dragon catches up.

Its simple, its sad that you prodo shard people play this game for years and some of you dont know basics of pvp.

Seriously come to SIEGE you might learn some things.

Just to recap- Taming=overpowered in pvp....ok ok juss beetles, dreadmare and greater dragons.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I don't think anyone is saying that tamers are underpowered...just that they don't need to be barred from PvP or nerfed into oblivion.

The real answer lies in changing the way pets do damage to players. Currently, a Greater Dragon can hit a player with a combo that equates to instant death. That is out of balance. No other class can hit like that.

Does this mean that tamers are invincible? Hardly.

I have had archers pop me for 60+ damage, and my suit is pretty much straight 70s.

The best solution is to put in a hard damage cap in PvP...and make it stick across all templates.

That is balance.

 

[Vexxed]

I Agree.... G. Dragons and Dread Mares Need to be balanced in PvP... Exactly how to do that is up for debate, but I wish the Dev's would sticky a thread on it or something and acknowledge that they are aware it needs to be done. If your on a mage Killing a G. Dragon is absolutely a pain __ T__ A__!

 

[Old Man of UO]

So, I am walking along and say I see a Tamer, and I get bola'd. The pet is on me before I am off mount, I attempt to heal myself or run away but then I get smacked with a bola. The dragon is immediately much faster than I, and automatically hits me with a bleed and 35 physical damage. By this time I am on foot with tamer chasing and Super Dragon chasing and I have no chance to invis or hide, especially since I am bleeding. At 120 HP, I am already down to 85. Now, I get hit immediately after the claws by a fireball. This thing does anywhere from 45 to a whopping 65 damage! Keep in mind , I am wearing an ALL 70s suit and am not even cursed. Also this fireball can hit me two screens away, due to a combat bug with player pets. Now I am down to 25 HP. Now, imagine that the guy who attacked me did not just bola me, but also dismounted me with a bow, doing another 25 damage with his heavy-xbow dismount. I am dead in literally THREE seconds with ZERO chance of survival. In no situation in UO should there be ZERO chance of survival in a 1v1, aka you can't even run away! A pet cannot be fizzled like a mage, nor does it have to take time to cast a spell, it can literally pump out a flamestrike and 65 damage fireball at the same time.

The same is true of a dread-mare, its physical attack doing less but the fireball still doing 45 damage to me, with a mage or archer atop it firing at me non-stop.

Obviously you asked to be killed by the Greater Dragon and the Dreadmare, right? You entered into Felucca, where all PvP is by consent, so obviously you asked for it. At least that is the response I get whenever my miner gets PK'd in ohh, say 3 seconds.

Get better skills! Get better equipment! NOOB! How many times have I heard that?

Seriously, your idea of cutting pet damage in half just doesn't work without balancing all the other PvP skills. Instead of capping damage in half, or 35 even, why not just cap all PvP damage at 1? That would stop the insta-kills for everyone, including my miner!

And to your last point, about pets targeting and casting/breath at 2 screens away, it isn't a bug and was intended. Monsters do that in PvM (more than 2 screens at times, and even different dungeon levels) and I agree that it should be changed... but apparently isn't a simple fix to stop pets and allow monsters to have it.

And... do we REALLY need a new thread on this same thread every day? Go play Uo. Add to the other post that already exist... something useful.

 

[Old Man of UO]

... If your on a mage Killing a G. Dragon is absolutely a pain __ T__ A__!

Why should a mage be able to kill anyone else? I know archers, with dragon slayer heavy x-bows and a fast PvP bow, that don't seem to have the same problem with tamers and greater dragons.

Every play style should have strengths and weakness.

 

[Inquisitor [AK]]

thats what im sayin since a year
cap Pet PvP dmg

 

[ATLPvPer]

Why should a mage be able to kill anyone else? I know archers, with dragon slayer heavy x-bows and a fast PvP bow, that don't seem to have the same problem with tamers and greater dragons.

Every play style should have strengths and weakness.

So can you explain to me the weakness of tamers??
Even a discorded greater dragon is FAR stronger than any player in any situation.
And seriously, how many discorders are in PvP? You should never have to add discord to a template just to combat tamers..

 

[ColterDC]

I know archers, with dragon slayer heavy x-bows and a fast PvP bow, that don't seem to have the same problem with tamers and greater dragons.

Should we really get into archers as well?

Tamers and Archers have become the bane of UO PvP.

Why is it that ZERO RL skill chars are the most powerful? Shouldn't characters that require at least an inkling of RL skill be more powerful than templates my 5 year old can play???

Please for the love of god reverse this mess. Characters that require the most RL skill, timing, etc should be the most powerful, not chars that require 3 macros max.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Should we really get into archers as well?

Tamers and Archers have become the bane of UO PvP.

Why is it that ZERO RL skill chars are the most powerful? Shouldn't characters that require at least an inkling of RL skill be more powerful than templates my 5 year old can play???

Please for the love of god reverse this mess. Characters that require the most RL skill, timing, etc should be the most powerful, not chars that require 3 macros max.

Translation:

"Whatever template I am playing right now should have a 200% advantage over every other template in the game."

 

[archite666]

Yes, the continueing point is simply pets, combined with other skills and equipment is overpowered.

tamer with tamer equipment vs mage decked out

There is no possible way a mage could kill a tamer with max hp regen while a dragon is chomping him.

So you say change your skills? Well the only thing that could ruin a tamer would be a disco tamer, even then the tamer can log his pet before he dies, and that just equilizes the field, it doest kill the tamer, hes still stealthing around.

Often on siege perilous, we will field 1 char with detect and track, 1 disco tamer, and a host of other chars to kill 1 tamer.

They need to reduce greater dragons output, via no fireball and maybe even no bleed, get rid of rune beetles corrupt armor on players and nerf hiding and stealth abit and that would makes tamers not so gimp on the field.

 

[archite666]

Translation:

"Whatever template I am playing right now should have a 200% advantage over every other template in the game."

No thats not true at all, tamers are completely overpowered in pvp, im sorry.

I dont come here because I die to tamers or because I hate them, or because my father was a tamer and im acting out against him.

Its because everyone that plays on my shard hates tamers, most guilds have a no tamer rule because all you have to do is...

Bola+all kill+smoke bomb

Bam you have the greatest damage in the game, what the original posted said is soo correct, 35 dmg plus bleed then fireball, kills most ppl on siege almost instantly.

Then you have the best defence in the game, you cant be seen.

It is extremly overpowered

 

[ColterDC]

Translation:

"Whatever template I am playing right now should have a 200% advantage over every other template in the game."

Your statement makes no sense...considering I have dozens of completed chars including 2 PvP tamers.

You seem to be the one who's really worried about losing your 200% advantage over every other template in the game.

Stop being so biased towards your own favorite template.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

And once tamers are nerfed, then something else will be overpowered...and so on and so on and so on.

As long as players are not willing to adjust their play styles and templates to whatever is currently the most powerful thing in the game, then there will always be an overpowered template.

Look at it like this...


Right now, it pretty much goes...

Tamers (specifically stealth tamers)
Archers (specifically speed hack archers)
Necro mages (EO/Para)
Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters

In PvP. So, you nerf tamers, and you get...

Archers (specifically speed hack archers)
Necro mages (EO/Para)
Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers

...fine...

But now you will have Necro mages whining non-stop until you have...

Necro Mages
Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers
Archers

...then, Warriors will whine until it's...

Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers
Archers
Necro mages

...then the mages will whine until it's...

Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers
Archers
Necro mages
Warriors


You see where this is going??

At one time or another every class (well, not crafters, that was thrown in for effect) or template has been at the top of PvP. Who you want to see at the top depends DIRECTLY on the style and template you prefer most.

There will NEVER be balance. There are too many variables to achieve real balance. Unless of course you want PvP to be every attack of any kind does 30 damage and always 30 damage and everyone has 100 HP in PvP combat, and everyone swings at the same speed, has the same mana, etc. etc.

These arguments are as old as the game. They have always been here, they will always be here. It's just a question of which template is in the #2 or #3 spot this month, and who does the most whining.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Stop being so biased towards your own favorite template.

Isn't that what everyone is doing?

Thanks to soulstones, and 14 7xGM+ characters on 2 accounts, I really don't have to pick 1 template.

I just have to adapt.

 

[Poo]

i have a couple issues with killing pvp tamers.

first is i die faster to necro mages then i do tamer.

second, if you cant outrun a greater dragon then your slow.
i live in northern canada and half the time im on satilite internet which is just hyped up dial up and i can outrun a greater dragon on foot.

third, ive seen it done to my pets, and ive done it myself many times, and thats put on a slayer talimsan (rune beetle) or use slayer weapons and drop a pet in 3 hits. was 2 of us running around the other day and saw a opposing faction guys greater, we switched to dragon slayers and it was dead even before it hit either of us, 2 hits each with EoO and con weapon and lightning striking it.

using pets is a anchor.
you cant leave them, you are tethered to them, if they get to far away, your dead.
if there is more then one person to fight, your dead.
if the person is prepared, your dead (conf. pot / invis pot / smoke bomb ect ect ect)

i guess im just not seeing the problem here.

pick a person that is good, and im mean really good at their template and they are gonna be able to drop anyone they choose in seconds. specially if that persons template is not set up to block that persons template.

singling out tamers seems a bit lame.
i do agree that Greater Dragon flame breathe needs to go in pvp.

you wanna know a seceret.

greater dragons and dread mares are *******.
you wanna die INSTANTLLY to a tamer, you icq me and ill show you.
i dont do it much, cause i dont want people to see it and start to copy it, but i do take it out ever once in a while for fun.

and its insta death.
all kill..... dead.

 

[ColterDC]

i have a couple issues with killing pvp tamers.

first is i die faster to necro mages then i do tamer.

The necro mage needs to set up the combo that is going to kill you. Takes longer than the 3 seconds a GD can kill you.

second, if you cant outrun a greater dragon then your slow.i live in northern canada and half the time im on satilite internet which is just hyped up dial up and i can outrun a greater dragon on foot.

You can run away..congrats I can run from anything in the game minus speedhacking piles of scum, but thats not really fighting it.

third, ive seen it done to my pets, and ive done it myself many times, and thats put on a slayer talimsan (rune beetle) or use slayer weapons and drop a pet in 3 hits. was 2 of us running around the other day and saw a opposing faction guys greater, we switched to dragon slayers and it was dead even before it hit either of us, 2 hits each with EoO and con weapon and lightning striking it

Cool...2 versus one on just the dragon, with you using the 1 template that is perfectly set up to kill GD's.

Try that 1 vs 1 with you playing a pure mage, versus someone who knows what they're doing.

using pets is a anchor.
you cant leave them, you are tethered to them, if they get to far away, your dead.

So basically stand there and wait for someone stupid enough to attack you. If you want you can even stand there invisible, a popular template.

i do agree that Greater Dragon flame breathe needs to go in pvp.

That would satisfy alot of people, combined with the newly announced no animal form change.

you wanna die INSTANTLLY to a tamer, you icq me and ill show you. i dont do it much, cause i dont want people to see it and start to copy it, but i do take it out ever once in a while for fun.

Yeah they need a nerfing.

 

[ColterDC]

And once tamers are nerfed, then something else will be overpowered...and so on and so on and so on.

As long as players are not willing to adjust their play styles and templates to whatever is currently the most powerful thing in the game, then there will always be an overpowered template.

Look at it like this...


Right now, it pretty much goes...

Tamers (specifically stealth tamers)
Archers (specifically speed hack archers)
Necro mages (EO/Para)
Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters

In PvP. So, you nerf tamers, and you get...

Archers (specifically speed hack archers)
Necro mages (EO/Para)
Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers

...fine...

But now you will have Necro mages whining non-stop until you have...

Necro Mages
Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers
Archers

...then, Warriors will whine until it's...

Warriors
Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers
Archers
Necro mages

...then the mages will whine until it's...

Mages
Bards
Crafters
Tamers
Archers
Necro mages
Warriors


You see where this is going??

At one time or another every class (well, not crafters, that was thrown in for effect) or template has been at the top of PvP. Who you want to see at the top depends DIRECTLY on the style and template you prefer most.

There will NEVER be balance. There are too many variables to achieve real balance. Unless of course you want PvP to be every attack of any kind does 30 damage and always 30 damage and everyone has 100 HP in PvP combat, and everyone swings at the same speed, has the same mana, etc. etc.

These arguments are as old as the game. They have always been here, they will always be here. It's just a question of which template is in the #2 or #3 spot this month, and who does the most whining.

Good post..........but my point still stands.

I'd rather see a scenario where the strongest templates are the ones requiring more RL skill to play.

Not click and shoot from 8-10 tiles away or "all kill" and hide/attack.

 

[Tom_Builder]

Cap all damage of pets to PLAYER = 35

This does not apply to the following:-

1. monster
2. npc
3. Player's pet


In additional, Dev should look and fix the Player's Armor Ignore only doing 35 damage cap on player's PET.

I can live with this...as long as ALL PvP damage is equally capped.

Why should your uber l337 bow do 60 damage to me, but my pet can only do 35 to you?


A lot of you scream for balance, but in reality you seek dominance through favoritism.

I agree with you, cap all damage. That is about the only way to ever balance pvp.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I'd rather see a scenario where the strongest templates are the ones requiring more RL skill to play.

Okay...here is where I take exception to your position.

Just a post above the one I am quoting, you state that "Running away is not fighting"...or at least that is the gist of it. It's not "running away" it's called a tactic.

You say that tamers don't have any RL skills...but I contend that simple mouse clicks are not skills...just mechanics. So what you are saying is that the person that has to click the mouse the highest number of times should win??

God help us all if that were ever true...people that donate to the Brit Library will rule us all!!

I don't PvP as much as I used to, but never on any template did I expect to just stand there and win a fight! You gotta move in PvP.

I can just hear a potential boxer complaining "I would have beaten that other guy, if he hadn't been moving around and stuff."

I mean really.

There is a difference between PvP and duel.

So who has no skill...the person that employs actual tactics, or the person that clicks more, but just stands in one spot and drools a lot??

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I agree with you, cap all damage. That is about the only way to ever balance pvp.

Once that happens, everyone with less than all 70 resist armor, or max DCI, or max SSI, etc. will begin to whine.

Unless you remove all variables, there will never be balance. That is not an opinion, that is mathematical fact.

A + B =/= A + B + C


The bottom line is, tamers are overpowered against several templates and play styles. There are other templates and play styles that are overpowered against other templates and play styles as well.

Actually, if you want to nerf tamers...the best solution is this:

You cannot speak while paralyzed.

Think about it...

 

[Harlequin]

Obviously you asked to be killed by the Greater Dragon and the Dreadmare, right? You entered into Felucca, where all PvP is by consent, so obviously you asked for it. At least that is the response I get whenever my miner gets PK'd in ohh, say 3 seconds.

Get better skills! Get better equipment! NOOB! How many times have I heard that?

Seriously, your idea of cutting pet damage in half just doesn't work without balancing all the other PvP skills. Instead of capping damage in half, or 35 even, why not just cap all PvP damage at 1? That would stop the insta-kills for everyone, including my miner!

Haha, I was going to say something like that too! Now I find using pets fundamentally wrong in something called PvP, and I totally understand how unfair and unbalanced it feels to the OP. Your solution is actually a pretty good start, but I'll get to that later.

First, regarding the scenario - note that a tamer with a GD is essentially a 2 man team. So switching the actors in the same scenario:

"So, I am walking along and say I see 2 PKs, and I get bola'd. I attempt to heal myself or run away but then I get smacked with another bola (not sure how fast bolas can be thrown in succession). Both PKs have maxed SSI on their weapons and are much faster than I, the first one hits me with a mortal wound special from his bow. The second one hits me with bleed.

By this time I am on foot both PKs chasing and I have no chance to invis or hide, especially since I am bleeding. At 120 HP, I am already down to 85 (I would say the tamer/GD team would hit less hard than 2 PKs). Now, I get hit immediately after by another arrow with hit fireball from the first PK, and axe lightning strike with hit lightning from the 2nd pk. This does anywhere from 45 to a whopping 65 damage! Keep in mind , I am wearing an ALL 70s suit and am not even cursed.

I am dead in literally THREE seconds with ZERO chance of survival. In no situation in UO should there be ZERO chance of survival in a 1v1 (tamer with GD is actually a 2v1 gank), aka you can't even run away! Warriors cannot be fizzled like a mage, nor are they frozen in place in order to attack, they can literally pump out an Armour ignore/LS and hit fireball at the same time."

If someone posted that, the comments would be as the old man says:
1) Noob
2) Trammy
3) Stay out of Fel if you cannot handle it
4) Get better equipment
5) You agreed to be unfairly ganked when you went through the gate
6) Get better skills
7) You can kill the PK if you know how (in repsonse asking for a the weakness for tamers with a GD: the tamer is the weak link)
8) Get the same skills as the PK (if you don't expect to get taming to deal with pks, do not expect crafters to get combat skills to deal with pks)
9) Whiner
10) Get over it

So just some food for thought for those who ridicule ganked miners while at the same time complain about being ganked by tamers/GD. The ganked miners feel that it's unfair too.

Now, back to the solution, having pets cap their damage on players will indeed solve the immediate issue without affecting PvM. Besides that, there's also the 1 hit kill situations.

So, to allow PvP combat to actually not be 3 second affairs, I suggest instead to double the hp for all characters. I suggested this before and someone gave me some very good feedback - this will hurt mages in pvp, since the mana pool is not increased. So what if the mana pool is doubled too?

Instead of nerfing, we buff everyone up.

 

[Widow Maker]

I can live with this...as long as ALL PvP damage is equally capped.

Why should your uber l337 bow do 60 damage to me, but my pet can only do 35 to you?

A lot of you scream for balance, but in reality you seek dominance through favoritism.

This is the words of TRUTH. I tip my hat to you :bowdown:

 

[ATLPvPer]

Haha, I was going to say something like that too! Now I find using pets fundamentally wrong in something called PvP, and I totally understand how unfair and unblanced it feels to the OP. Your solution is actually a pretty good start, but I'll get to that later.

First, regarding the scenario - note that a tamer with a GD is essentially a 2 man team. So switching the actors in the same scenario:

"So, I am walking along and say I see 2 PKs, and I get bola'd. I attempt to heal myself or run away but then I get smacked with another bola (not sure how fast bolas can be thrown in succession). Both PKs have maxed SSI on their weapons and are much faster than I, the first one hits me with a mortal wound special from his bow. The second one hits me with bleed.

By this time I am on foot both PKs chasing and I have no chance to invis or hide, especially since I am bleeding. At 120 HP, I am already down to 85 (I would say the tamer/GD team would hit less hard than 2 PKs). Now, I get hit immediately after the another arrow by a hit fireball from the first PK, and axe lightning strike with hit lightning from the 2nd pk. This does anywhere from 45 to a whopping 65 damage! Keep in mind , I am wearing an ALL 70s suit and am not even cursed.

I am dead in literally THREE seconds with ZERO chance of survival. In no situation in UO should there be ZERO chance of survival in a 1v1 (tamer with GD is actually a 2v1 gank), aka you can't even run away! Warriors cannot be fizzled like a mage, nor are they frozen in place in order to attack, they can literally pump out an Armour ignore/LS and hit fireball at the same time."

If someone posted that, the comments would be as the old man says:
1) Noob
2) Trammy
3) Stay out of Fel if you cannot handle it
4) Get better equipment
5) You agreed to be unfairly ganked when you went through the gate
6) Get better skills
7) You can kill the PK if you know how (in repsonse asking for a the weakness for tamers with a GD: the tamer is the weak link)
8) Get the same skills as the PK (if you don't expect to get taming to deal with pks, do not expect crafters to get combat skills to deal with pks)
9) Whiner
10) Get over it

So just some food for thought for those who ridicule ganked miners while at the same time complain about being ganked by tamers/GD. The ganked miners feel that it's unfair too.

Now, back to the solution, having pets cap their damage on players will indeed solve the immediate issue without affecting PvM. Besides that, there's also the 1 hit kill situations.

So, to allow PvP combat to actually not be 3 second affairs, I suggest instead to double the hp for all characters. I suggested this before and someone gave me some very good feedback - this will hurt mages in pvp, since the mana pool is not increased. So what if the mana pool is doubled too?

Instead of nerfing, we buff everyone up.

Thank you for proving my point. A tamer with a greater dragon can do the equivalent damage of 2-3 players. THAT is unbalanced.

I really don't see what you are getting at. I would expect to die to two players, its called a gank. One vs One I should have a chance on SOME template, which no template has against a tamer (enless you are a tamer yourself..)

This 'my miner dies in fel and you guys call me a whiner' has no bearing on this conversation because
A: You've NEVER heard me say any of those things either of you posted. Go quote me if I have.
B: That IS NOT a PvP template. You SHOULD NOT have any chance against a PvPer, you are there to get resources not PvP, hell you don't even care about PvP why are you guys in this conversation?
Every template that is dying to tamers in PvP ARE geared as PvP templates, and still they are being whiped out with ease at every group fight and 1v1 situation. That is unbalanced. As I said your 'my miner dies and has no chance' is an absolute irrelevence and you are just trying to stir **** up.

Also, this two player duo ganking me is not hitting me with 68 damage on one spell. It is also not casting on me from two screens away (one of the BIGGEST issues with pets.)

I hope you all realize Wilki never intended Greater Dragons to be tameable. I talked to him after he left, and if the current dev team is honest they will tell you the same thing. Is was a miscommunication, and after he was gone and they implemented these Dragons they made them tameable.

Dread mares, on the other hand, I have no idea what they were thinking...

 

[Harlequin]

you wanna know a seceret.

greater dragons and dread mares are *******.
you wanna die INSTANTLLY to a tamer, you icq me and ill show you.
i dont do it much, cause i dont want people to see it and start to copy it, but i do take it out ever once in a while for fun.

and its insta death.
all kill..... dead.

I know which petss you are talking about

 

[Harlequin]

Thank you for proving my point. A tamer with a greater dragon can do the equivalent damage of 2-3 players. THAT is unbalanced.

I really don't see what you are getting at. I would expect to die to two players, its called a gank. One vs One I should have a chance on SOME template, which no template has against a tamer (enless you are a tamer yourself..)

This 'my miner dies in fel and you guys call me a whiner' has no bearing on this conversation because
A: You've NEVER heard me say any of those things either of you posted. Go quote me if I have.
B: That IS NOT a PvP template. You SHOULD NOT have any chance against a PvPer, you are there to get resources not PvP, hell you don't even care about PvP why are you guys in this conversation?
Every template that is dying to tamers in PvP ARE geared as PvP templates, and still they are being whiped out with ease at every group fight and 1v1 situation. That is unbalanced. As I said your 'my miner dies and has no chance' is an absolute irrelevence and you are just trying to stir **** up.

Also, this two player duo ganking me is not hitting me with 68 damage on one spell. It is also not casting on me from two screens away (one of the BIGGEST issues with pets.)

I hope you all realize Wilki never intended Greater Dragons to be tameable. I talked to him after he left, and if the current dev team is honest they will tell you the same thing. Is was a miscommunication, and after he was gone and they implemented these Dragons they made them tameable.

Dread mares, on the other hand, I have no idea what they were thinking...

That's precisely it, it's not a 1 v 1 scenario anymore. It's 2 v 1. Both the tamer and pet can attack you at the same time. If 2 creatures attacks you at the same time, it's basically a gank. And as Poo says, GDs and mares aren't the worst of it.

Also, for the record, I did not accuse you of doing this. I am merely using your scenario to illustrate that people shouldn't ridicule the lowly miners because they may be caught in a similar situation.

Miners are not geared for PvP, that's correct. They shouldn't be able to defeat the gankers. But your scenario also mentioned keeping yourself alive by invis and hiding. That's what miners do, try to escape alive and recall away. That's their template's response. Instead of winning, they expect to have a chance to recall out in a 1 v 1 situation.

As for templates, all templates have strengths and weaknesses - A PvP template owns a miner template. A tamer template beats a PvP template. A bard template neutralizes a tamer template. An assassin template massacres a bard template. A PvP template owns an assassin template.

Next, if you have read my post carefully, I am agreeing with you that something needs to be done and that a cap is a good start. I am only adding that instead of nerfing 1 thing, we buff the opposite.

Regarding hitting for 68 points of damage in 1 spell, correct, that's overpowered. However, a single special from 1 person coupled with hit lightning/fireball will almost do comparable damage.

As to the fireball from 2 screens away, as old man said above, that happens with mobs that cast spells/breathe fireballs, even in PvM. Personally, I think it's a coding issue and it is devastating in both PvM and if pets are used in PvP.

 

[Anakena]

Finally you production shard guys see what we SIEGERS were complaining about constantly a year ago.

A dragons firebreath usually hits for 60 from several screens away, its insane.

Sorry for you pvmers but in PVP taming is overpowered, bola+all kill is absolutly broken, especially when combined with stealth.

Right now, Hiding+stealth+ninja and taming+anything is the most broken thing in pvp, I wish the devs would listen to us vets who actually know what were talking about.

Not trying to insult anyone but if you think taming is underpowered you do not know how to play.

Run stealth, hiding,ninja, taming, lore and vet.

Drink potions
Wear HP regen armor
Use smoke bomb macro
Run around in animal form like llama
Jump outta form and bola
Throw poisoned shurikens at mount and target

If your target is like the best pvper ever and actually gets away, jump into animal form and block him while your dragon catches up.

Its simple, its sad that you prodo shard people play this game for years and some of you dont know basics of pvp.

Seriously come to SIEGE you might learn some things.

Just to recap- Taming=overpowered in pvp....ok ok juss beetles, dreadmare and greater dragons.

The situation in Siege is quite different as there is no insure. This means that people are running around with lower resists than on other shards.

This is really obvious for the firebreath : the fire breath does Dragon's HP/5 (capped at 200) base damage. Against 70 fire resist it gives 60 effective damage. But if you run around with 50 fire resist, you receive a firebreath damage of 10

A good first fix would be to raise the base resist you get from Legendary resist to 60. This alone would help a lot the siege population, while not having a too big influence on production shards. Real PvP'ers are looking there anyway for a suit close to 70 on all resists with good mods.

Now for Greater dragons in PvP, there is another easy solution, affecting only PvP : Just make talismans spawning with the "greater dragon [or dread war horse]protection" property. Such a property already exists against other critters, so it is perfectly possible. It would even help PvM'ers wanting to tame one.

 

[WildWobble]

Its a cycle you see.
Well don't ya see it?
hmm guess your all blind


Ninja super strong then nerfed
archer's to strong then nerf
nerf nerf nerf each one gives rise to another need to nerf but
for awhile the happy go lucky folks that get to use and abuse the system get
to call your character a noob and feel like a big bad pvper its equal opportunity pvp you see.!! Now its the tamers turn for some cheese!! You silly whiners had your fun for a good long run now tamers get to go on the killing spree

Yes and no though they do hit very hard, and needs to be toned down for pvp and probably will be in time

heheheh BUT NOT THIS PUBLISH
gets on tamer to go kill some people who deserve the Grey robe
na i don't often go looking for a fight. but if you attack me my dragon will eat you! most of the time




So anymore whine for the cheese?

 

[YuriGaDaisukiDa]

Finally you production shard guys see what we SIEGERS were complaining about constantly a year ago.

A dragons firebreath usually hits for 60 from several screens away, its insane.

Sorry for you pvmers but in PVP taming is overpowered, bola+all kill is absolutly broken, especially when combined with stealth.

Right now, Hiding+stealth+ninja and taming+anything is the most broken thing in pvp, I wish the devs would listen to us vets who actually know what were talking about.

Not trying to insult anyone but if you think taming is underpowered you do not know how to play.

Run stealth, hiding,ninja, taming, lore and vet.

Drink potions
Wear HP regen armor
Use smoke bomb macro
Run around in animal form like llama
Jump outta form and bola
Throw poisoned shurikens at mount and target

If your target is like the best pvper ever and actually gets away, jump into animal form and block him while your dragon catches up.

Its simple, its sad that you prodo shard people play this game for years and some of you dont know basics of pvp.

Seriously come to SIEGE you might learn some things.

Just to recap- Taming=overpowered in pvp....ok ok juss beetles, dreadmare and greater dragons.

ok your wrong....

"tamers" are NOT overpowered

what people are complaining about and what is reality are two different things

greater dragons are overpowered

the combinations of stealth/archery and and high end pet CAN be overpowered

but tamers are not overpowered

the best ways to balance tamers in pvp are as follows

make greater dragons easier to counter (such as making greater dragon protection talismans easier to get)

make it harder for tamers to dismount (120 archery and 90 tactics not enough?)

perhaps pets can stop chasing after a few screens like monsters do

But whatever you do, DONT nerf "tamers" this game is the only game that does tamers right, and it is the main reason i play it,

hell if they give paladins uber dragon slaying spells of doom, such as protection from dragons, and dragon hunter spells, and they can kill my dragon in seconds, i wouldnt care, as long as my class is the same

 

[Heartseeker]

I am surprised that this topic comes up everyday.

Tamers don't need nerfs.

But they will be, just like every other template of the week.

Tamers are generaly slow and pets are not easy to command.

PVP in general is not fair and I am astonished at the amount of people whining about getting ganked by pets.

Should I cry too when there is 2 PVP'ers vs me?

There is no thought at all in these posts because cap damage is so varied, and so are the weapons.

I have been hit for 50+ damage many a times by players; should we cap that also?

Either accept the fact that some templates work better against others or just PVM.

I like playing a mage, but they have been nerfed so bad that they are useless now.

A good dexxer can kill a mage in a few seconds.

So unless you wanna nerf dexxers next, leave tamers as they are.

 

[WarUltima]

Tamers aren't overpowered its the pets. In fact dreadmare present more imbalance in 1v1 where GD can be handful at group choke fights. These ywo pets are both over powered. Fix theoverpowered pets will be much much easier than balance tamers ground up.

 

[Warpig Inc]

For a return to the epic battles under the current system I think everything in the game needs a 100%-200% increase in Hit Points. Today ya kill a demon in 3 hits. Of old and you didn't run took at least 5. The big imbalance I see is all the player uber gear and creatures jacked up to be more a challenge and the HP never changed.

If you as a player had 300ish HP take a serious gank squad or latest and greatest combo for insta kill. And would be a return of the epic fight of old when neither player won in a one vs one. And for the PVM the loot would reflect better the HP of the creature. Should have to deal with the respawn before you looked at everything.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

The big problem with doubling HP is that once that is done, the damages will slowly creep back up too. And eventually they will have to double it again. And again. And again.

It is a never ending cycle.

 

[Harlequin]

The big problem with doubling HP is that once that is done, the damages will slowly creep back up too. And eventually they will have to double it again. And again. And again.

It is a never ending cycle.

Yes, the damage will slowly creep up if the devs aren't careful.

But even if the damage is increased, doubling the HP will give them more room to tweak the damages into a more suitable range. "Ok, an extra point of damage to a dagger should be fine, even when you include tactics/lj/anat/str/DI bonus".

Halving or capping damage gives them less room to maneuver. "Wait, we can't add that extra 1 point of damage to that dagger, the impact after adding tactics/lj/anat/str/DI bonus is too much".

Besides, I prefer an unending cycle of buffs over an unending cycle of nerfs

Edit: Oh, I am talking about buffing player HP only, not monsters. Monster HP needs more work instead of a blanket increase, or the bosses/peerless and their minions would become unkillable.

 

[Lynk]

The best solution is to put in a hard damage cap in PvP...and make it stick across all templates.

That is balance.

It doesn't matter how many times you post your theory, it's still not true. It's an awful idea. I hope the Devs disregard your posts as quickly as the rest of the community.

 

[Old Man of UO]

Good post..........but my point still stands.

I'd rather see a scenario where the strongest templates are the ones requiring more RL skill to play.

Not click and shoot from 8-10 tiles away or "all kill" and hide/attack.

Okay... so WHICH templates do you want to see overpowered? How does that solve anything to have any template over powered? What do you consider RL skills?

It should be more like Rock-Paper-Scissors. Every template with strengths and weaknesses. This does NOT mean that any one template can kill every other one.

AND - regardless of what you consider RL skills, someone should not be able to create a uber template in a day via macroing against a golem and run out into PvP to dominate everyone else. RL skills should also consider the time and effort it takes to create the template.

 

[CatLord]

Solution to all of this...

Add Veterinary to the Control Pet equation.

Problem solved.

 

[Cal Hurst]

Cap all damage to players at 35. Problem solved.
No reason a Greater Dragon can hit a player for over 35hp. This will not be a devastating nerf to tamers. They will still be an integral part of PvP.

Players should be able to do more than 35 damage to player pets.

I have PvP'd on a tamer before, and was really disgusted with how easy it was to kill people. A template that literally had only 4 buttons it needed to push at any given time, and was 99.9% guaranteed to kill its opponent.

Adding the 35damage cap will shift this towards more balanced, without nerfing tamers into oblivion, or even blow a topnotch template.

 

[CatLord]

Seems we already have two possible solutions.

Happy Valentines!

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

There used to be a dual-damage system, prior to Age of Shadows. Players and monsters both took and gave out damage differently to one another than to the other group.

There were some bugs though. I'm shocked no one but me seems to remember the zero-spell damage bug!!!

Whether or not such bugs are endemic to such a dual damage system, I really have no idea.

-Galen's player