What are you willing to give up to get more players on the shard?

[FrejaSP]

We keep loosing players, even when I had seen a few new ones the last week

We had seen several threads about how to get more players on Siege but how much are we willing to give up? Is it possible to make Siege more like a PvP server and still keep our players?

I was thinking, what if Devs asked the Siege players, if we would accept new rules on the shard that would changes the shard to something close the Trammel Shards but with Fel rules everywhere.


Get the Trammel facet with Felucca rules (room for more houses and easier to code for Devs)
Have VvV work on all facets (it already do)
Have the Felucca rules and bonus to luck, fame and resource drop on all facets
Have +15 basis resist added to loot as well as crafted stuff, that would make it easier to put together a 5x70 suit
One of 2:

1. Be able to Siege bless one item for each item slot on the paperdoll = a suit with weapon/spellbook and one item not in a slot, could be a pet ball or a music item or a crafting tools
2. Have Item Insurance like on Prodo

There will still be 2 house servers, one for Trammel servers and one for VvV servers. Only 30 days old chars with 720 skills points can place a house in the test periode on the 2 PvP servers.

Yes we would get recall too and normal NPC vendors Sell/Buy and prices and 7 char slots
Yes we would have to give up RoT skill gain, that will hurt.
Make a Felucca copy of Atlantic (all facets) with all chars and houses there as that shard do have most PvP'ers in UO

Roll back: 1-3 months test. If it fail to and mess up Siege and noone like the Atlantic Fel server, the Atlantic Fel server will be deleted and Siege will get back the Siege Rules but keep items, houses and skills etc. they got in this 1-3 months
If a success after 3 months, the changes will stay and the Atlantic Fel server will stay

This way, UO would have 2 Fel servers.

Would Siege say yes. I believe I would, even when there is some Siege rules I would hate to see go, I would do that to get the players back.

Sorry but just some thoughts in my head, be nice

 

[WhiteWitch]

Very very willing to give up the one char limit, being able to do a much wider variety of things with chars made for them is really the main factor that makes me play prodo.

I think having more chars would help with the economy too, with more chars you need many more items and gear, also powerscrolls etc

Item insurance I don't mind at all really, but it ruins the game for thieves and although I don't have one and many hate them, they are one of the things that makes UO the unique thing it is, the only real compromise is to have all worn items remain with your character on death, but anything at all in your bag remains on the corpse when you die and is stealable as now, but theres no chance we ever get any agreement on this issue is there :S

All I ever wanted was all facet PvP enabled version of what the current UO shards are(but thief friendly), as lack of safety makes the game more exciting for me, all of the other differences Siege has like RoT, no recall, no second Britannia facet etc, are things I can personally live without.

 

[Tanivar]

I could deal with this as long as the bulk of the players it draws in are gatherers, crafters, or PvPers. A swarm of ashat pkers dead set on re-inspiring the grand exodus that got Trammel created back in 2000 would be a showstopper for me. Playing for hours and losing it all in a few seconds over and over and over would get old.

Those who can't have fun playing the shard would not play on it long.

 

[kelmo]

 

[FrejaSP]

I know

 

[RueTor]

To be honest, the more complex the solution is the less likely it will ever happen. Making Siege more like a production shard provides no unique experience to draw players away from their home shard. What would motivate a player to come to Siege to that is not already available on their home shard with an established network of characters and support? Mugen already has both a Fel and Tram side. Most of the activity is on the Tram side. Greater land mass doesn't seem like the answer.

As mentioned before in other threads... To gain population here, more than likely it will have to come from another shard. Brand new players are not the norm - this game has become very complex for a new player. A player has limited time during a normal week, so how do you get them to try the shard. How is playing on this shard a better experience or a more unique experience than a production shard?

 

[Sprago]

people would stay if they could find armor and supplies when they die people need to stock vendors i know everyone has items they could sell so quit hoarding those items and sell them

first reply is gonna say something like " vendors costs are to high" my response not if it helps bring more people in to the shard in the long run you will notice an increase in profit i guarantee i stock my vendors and pay those prices its a small price to pay

 

[FrejaSP]

people would stay if they could find armor and supplies when they die people need to stock vendors i know everyone has items they could sell so quit hoarding those items and sell them

first reply is gonna say something like " vendors costs are to high" my response not if it helps bring more people in to the shard in the long run you will notice an increase in profit i guarantee i stock my vendors and pay those prices its a small price to pay

Here we need devs help to remove vendor fee from vendors, also the New Mag Stall vendors

 

[GarthGrey]

What bothers me is, no dev is touching any Siege related threads, at all lately. Unless I missed a random reply.

 

[Bo Bo]

Youre missing the option on your poll. Yes but not what you said.
Bo is all for more pvp, but why with what you suggested would make this a pvp shard? Your thoughts on this are all wrong. The current land mass is a problem cause it is too big, and you want to add more??
here is what bo would like to do.
1. add maybe 3-4 more siege blessings. this way you can wear those extra fancy pieces like a crimmy and a slither. This would help everyone. farmers can farm and than these items would actually sell.
2. Remove land mass, get rid ilshner all of it, 2/3s of malas (just leave the housing areas and doom), 1/2 of termur, 1/3 of fel, lose some towns, dungeons, 1/2 the water mass, 1/2 t2a, 1/2 of makato.
3. Bo personally likes 1 character per account, you cant hide behind your alts. If really needed ad 1 character per account.
4. no recall or sacred journey.
5. Governors, have a total of only 8 towns this would be for the entire shard. Governors control town, they set prices, guards, let them hire a finance minster to help. governor would control if town was vvv capable, if not it would cost more money.
6. Turn on everything. (tots, farties, arties) every kind of special drop stuff turn it all on. but make it where you have to goto certain spots to farm specific items.
7. Vendor fees, Bo wouldnt touch, nothing wrong with them. If your stuff isnt sellin try lowering the price to a decent price and guess what, the stuff will sell.
8. Rot - all timers set to 3-5 minutes. waitin more than 5 minutes for a gain is silly.
9. Bo sees no need to add resist to suits. It is not hard to get all 70s now if you know what you are doing.

but that is just what bo thinks. Bo has more ideas but this a start.

 

[FrejaSP]

Bo's ideas won't make more play the shard I fear
And Bo got his option

 

[kelmo]

I am tired of giving up stuff. I have some things I would like changed. Only to make Siege better for those that choose to play Siege.

Players will come or they won't. I have been reading the opinions of Siege from folks that go not play here for far too long. Most will never change their mind... until they do.

 

[Kat]

Freja, it is clear from your ideas that you really do not have a full grasp of the problems of Siege. Some of your ideas are okay, but they only half-ass address the issues.

I like a lot of Bo's suggestions, but I am NOT in favor of blessing only 3 or 4 or 5 items! Even having to replace one item and have it fit nicely with your existing pieces, takes a good amount of time and resources. Players want and need the ability to get back into the action and having fun! Without blessing all currently worn [on the paperdoll] items, the idea's above do not resolve that issue. Minus spell and runebooks, items in the pack should always be lootable.

If you are looking to fix some problems, then find a good solution. Half baked ideas are a waste of time and effort.

 

[Tanivar]

What changes would draw PvPers to Siege and make staying fun without drawing so many pkers with them that Crafters are driven away because they can't have fun?

 

[Kat]

What changes would draw PvPers to Siege and make staying fun without drawing so many pkers with them that Crafters are driven away because they can't have fun?

Crafter's have always been a big part of Siege! Even in it's hey-day when there were pk's and pvper's everywhere. They weren't "driven away". They were an integral part of the community and the PvPer's kept them in business. The days of buying armor from crafter vendors are pretty much over, but there are a number of other items crafters can make/sell and make a nice profit from the pvp community. Potions, bola's, dp shurikens, purple/orange petals, enchanged apples, grapes, enhanced bandages, etc. I'm sure individual orders for armor or weapons could be worked out. Even with some form of insurance in place, everyone needs that first suit and upgrades will always be necessary.

Further, Siege doesn't need a label. Siege is for everyone and all play styles. All you need to play here is the ability and willingness to accept the risk. We once even had a guild who formed a player-run town for the sole purposes of providing a backdrop for PvP/PK raids and roleplaying. Labeling Siege is selling our shard short. There is no limit to the playstyles that can thrive here. There is simply more risk here and this shard was developed for players who want that.

 

[Victim of Siege]

What changes would draw PvPers to Siege and make staying fun without drawing so many pkers with them that Crafters are driven away because they can't have fun?

I suppose it's your definition of fun. Personally, you cannot drive me off the shard no matter how many times you kill me, take my stuff, let the air outta my football, whatever gets done. the shard is barely hanging on and needs a few things, although we can never agree what it is or the exact details. at this point the only thing i am not willing to change is more landmass, there needs to be less. No Trammel code, ever *scratches* There needs to be some type of insurance/bless addition, but nothing more than your suit and 1 weapon. other than that if no insurance/bless change, do the "turn on every drop event" thing @Bo Bo mentioned. maybe only in dungeons, or the abyss spawns. Add the Tok and other things to the mini champs and guarantee a drop so we can build decent suits. currently the drop appears to be one in a gozillion. as far as more characters, maybe two but no more than that.

 

[Synbad]

add a character slot is what id like to see.... and another facet with all Felucca rules would work for me too.... im just not big on gettting rid of ROT.... if people only realized how many resources are saved by this method they might just like it

 

[Tanivar]

add a character slot is what id like to see.... and another facet with all Felucca rules would work for me too.... im just not big on gettting rid of ROT.... if people only realized how many resources are saved by this method they might just like it

I agree it's great for training resource requiring crafting skills but it does suk'eth the fabled big time for training combat skills where it's only a pain in the posterior.

I started training Cooking a couple months back and am only in the low 90's with a twelve minute RoT. Playing a few minutes to perhaps an hour a day, it's taking forever and a century to GM the skill.

 

[Kat]

I agree it's great for training resource requiring crafting skills but it does suk'eth the fabled big time for training combat skills where it's only a pain in the posterior.

I started training Cooking a couple months back and am only in the low 90's with a twelve minute RoT. Playing a few minutes to perhaps an hour a day, it's taking forever and a century to GM the skill.

That's where alacrity scrolls and scrolls of transcendence come into play. Eat a blue, get a gain, log out for x amount of time, rinse and repeat to the point where you can eat your pinks to complete.

With the timer changes we've had, daily caps removed and pink/blue scrolls... Skill gain is super easy here. I agree combat and taming are a little more of a challenge, but not that big of a deal. I wouldn't mind if that 15 minute gain to 120 fell off the face of the earth, though.

 

[Wolfman]

Youre missing the option on your poll. Yes but not what you said.
1. add maybe 3-4 more siege blessings. this way you can wear those extra fancy pieces like a crimmy and a slither. This would help everyone. farmers can farm and than these items would actually sell.
2. Remove land mass, get rid ilshner all of it, 2/3s of malas (just leave the housing areas and doom), 1/2 of termur, 1/3 of fel, lose some towns, dungeons, 1/2 the water mass, 1/2 t2a, 1/2 of makato.
3. Bo personally likes 1 character per account, you cant hide behind your alts. If really needed ad 1 character per account.
4. no recall or sacred journey.
5. Governors, have a total of only 8 towns this would be for the entire shard. Governors control town, they set prices, guards, let them hire a finance minster to help. governor would control if town was vvv capable, if not it would cost more money.
6. Turn on everything. (tots, farties, arties) every kind of special drop stuff turn it all on. but make it where you have to goto certain spots to farm specific items.
7. Vendor fees, Bo wouldnt touch, nothing wrong with them. If your stuff isnt sellin try lowering the price to a decent price and guess what, the stuff will sell.
8. Rot - all timers set to 3-5 minutes. waitin more than 5 minutes for a gain is silly.
9. Bo sees no need to add resist to suits. It is not hard to get all 70s now if you know what you are doing.
but that is just what bo thinks. Bo has more ideas but this a start.

I would say "yes" to all the above points (with some slight variations, but you got the essential points right).
One thing you left out which we both already agreed on the last gov-meeting was "nerf stealthing".
Too powerful as it is: Give the option of auto detect if you have the detect hidden skill, and when one is revealed make them stay revealed as long the line of sight is not broken.

 

[Synbad]

yeah there are skills that suck to train in ROT... im doing incription right now... i get bored with it and stone it off.... so ill be awhile yet before i GM it

 

[Max Blackoak]

My opinion:
1. reduce landmass. remove t2a and put the peerless in felucca. remove ilshenar and put necessary dungeons or encounters (exodus) elsewhere. I would also like to see a reduction of the other landmass but I think Ilshenar and t2a are the easiest to cut.
2. increase artifact and ingredients drop rate (maybe just adding the 1000 luck fel bonus for all facets would help here) and turn on the tokuno arti drop and any other system that is currently inactive except for Helloween stuff.
3. keep it at 1 char per account. It's one of the features I love most about Siege. For everything else there are soulstones and second accounts.
4. if recall and sacred journey will be implemented make the casting time at least as long as gate travel
5. maybe reduce RoT-timers but definately keep RoT. It is far better than any other gain system and even now with 15 minutes between gains from gm to 120 I never took more than a month to finish a skill.
6. if people think they have to have these, then reimplement the VvV artifacts but make them lootable and usable by anyone to prevent those bad PKs from getting too much of an edge...
7. get rid of pardons and royal forged pardons. Bring back the true (red) PKs!

I think those points will be a way to make the transition easier for people from prodo while keeping Siege a unique shard.

 

[Uvtha]

We keep loosing players, even when I had seen a few new ones the last week

We had seen several threads about how to get more players on Siege but how much are we willing to give up? Is it possible to make Siege more like a PvP server and still keep our players?

I was thinking, what if Devs asked the Siege players, if we would accept new rules on the shard that would changes the shard to something close the Trammel Shards but with Fel rules everywhere.


Get the Trammel facet with Felucca rules (room for more houses and easier to code for Devs)
Have VvV work on all facets (it already do)
Have the Felucca rules and bonus to luck, fame and resource drop on all facets
Have +15 basis resist added to loot as well as crafted stuff, that would make it easier to put together a 5x70 suit
One of 2:

1. Be able to Siege bless one item for each item slot on the paperdoll = a suit with weapon/spellbook and one item not in a slot, could be a pet ball or a music item or a crafting tools
2. Have Item Insurance like on Prodo

There will still be 2 house servers, one for Trammel servers and one for VvV servers. Only 30 days old chars with 720 skills points can place a house in the test periode on the 2 PvP servers.

Yes we would get recall too and normal NPC vendors Sell/Buy and prices and 7 char slots
Yes we would have to give up RoT skill gain, that will hurt.
Make a Felucca copy of Atlantic (all facets) with all chars and houses there as that shard do have most PvP'ers in UO

Roll back: 1-3 months test. If it fail to and mess up Siege and noone like the Atlantic Fel server, the Atlantic Fel server will be deleted and Siege will get back the Siege Rules but keep items, houses and skills etc. they got in this 1-3 months
If a success after 3 months, the changes will stay and the Atlantic Fel server will stay

This way, UO would have 2 Fel servers.

Would Siege say yes. I believe I would, even when there is some Siege rules I would hate to see go, I would do that to get the players back.

Sorry but just some thoughts in my head, be nice

I personally think you just need to accept reality. Nothing can be done to make siege thrive again, outside of going f2p. It will never be a thriving shard again. Period. UO is slowly dying, siege is dying along with it, that's all that's happening.

 

[Uvtha]

I am tired of giving up stuff. I have some things I would like changed. Only to make Siege better for those that choose to play Siege.

This. We should be thinking about people who already play siege and want to play Siege, and drop this endless quest of pandering to the propdsharders to drag them to the shard.

 

[Uvtha]

My opinion:
1. reduce landmass. remove t2a and put the peerless in felucca. remove ilshenar and put necessary dungeons or encounters (exodus) elsewhere. I would also like to see a reduction of the other landmass but I think Ilshenar and t2a are the easiest to cut.
2. increase artifact and ingredients drop rate (maybe just adding the 1000 luck fel bonus for all facets would help here) and turn on the tokuno arti drop and any other system that is currently inactive except for Helloween stuff.
3. keep it at 1 char per account. It's one of the features I love most about Siege. For everything else there are soulstones and second accounts.
4. if recall and sacred journey will be implemented make the casting time at least as long as gate travel
5. maybe reduce RoT-timers but definately keep RoT. It is far better than any other gain system and even now with 15 minutes between gains from gm to 120 I never took more than a month to finish a skill.
6. if people think they have to have these, then reimplement the VvV artifacts but make them lootable and usable by anyone to prevent those bad PKs from getting too much of an edge...
7. get rid of pardons and royal forged pardons. Bring back the true (red) PKs!

I think those points will be a way to make the transition easier for people from prodo while keeping Siege a unique shard.

I prefer these ideas if we were picking, especially 2, though I would hate to lose islh, it's one of the best-designed landmasses in the game barring a few places. I get there's no housing there, but still, I would miss it.
Also you could close down dinosaur land. Ugly and generally a waste of space. Stick the turtle in a forest someplace.

 

[Max Blackoak]

I prefer these ideas if we were picking, especially 2, though I would hate to lose islh, it's one of the best-designed landmasses in the game barring a few places. I get there's no housing there, but still, I would miss it.
Also you could close down dinosaur land. Ugly and generally a waste of space. Stick the turtle in a forest someplace.

I feel ya about Ilsh's design...
Eodon I could do without. There's a turtle spawn in fel (entrance in destard) and the shadowguard encounter should never have made it's way here with the instanced encounters anyway! I mean seriously all people need to do is start an encounter to be 100% safe from any PKs or other players what so ever. Even if you manage to kill them right in front of the damn thing they have a shrine there to res. I don't know who was in the focus group but the Siege people on there clearly missed to point that one out... Don't get me wrong I like the encounters and I also like the stuff they drop but I hate that they are instanced (for selfish PK reasons obviously...).

 

[SlobberKnocker]

hate to say it but the low pop on siege is no better or worse than the low pop on chessy which is my home prodo shard.

F2P is just what this game needs at this point to get people to check out an 18 year old retro game. allow them the ability to train to gm. At least you will get new blood doing this and maybe get some of the pop off the free servers.

also would like a 2nd char here. been here a short time and hate to say it but the economy here is in bad shape. I'd be really happy making a crafter on the second char slot and using my top char to keep him in good supply on things.

the second house feature brought me back here tbh. playing out of a bank box is horrid.

 

[Uvtha]

F2P is just what this game needs at this point to get people to check out an 18 year old retro game. allow them the ability to train to gm. At least you will get new blood doing this and maybe get some of the pop off the free servers.

I honestly think this game should have gone f2p when they were working on a plan for it like 8 years ago.

 

[Tanivar]

also would like a 2nd char here. been here a short time and hate to say it but the economy here is in bad shape. I'd be really happy making a crafter on the second char slot and using my top char to keep him in good supply on things.

I came from Chessie a couple years back and have a gatherer/crafter pair of characters, what do you need made?

 

[SlobberKnocker]

i could use some generic suits and such. i dont have much gold however only about 700k at the moment. for me the ability to have a second slot to make a char would be awesome as i could farm stuff up, make my own gear and gather some gold at the same time.

 

[Max Blackoak]

i could use some generic suits and such. i dont have much gold however only about 700k at the moment. for me the ability to have a second slot to make a char would be awesome as i could farm stuff up, make my own gear and gather some gold at the same time.

soulstones will do that for ya. get one soulstone for imbuing that's all you really need. the rest you can just buy from crafters

 

[FrejaSP]

soulstones will do that for ya. get one soulstone for imbuing that's all you really need. the rest you can just buy from crafters

You mean 2 soulstones, else he can't switch skills

 

[Tanivar]

i could use some generic suits and such.

Give me a list and I'll make up what I can tonight. Landreu would love to do some crafting.

 

[Aran]

Siege needs a Trammel facet with Trammel rules, and more character slots.

 

[Tanivar]

Siege needs a Trammel facet with Trammel rules, and more character slots.

...my god...

 

[FrejaSP]

Siege needs a Trammel facet with Trammel rules,

*Slap Aran the*

 

[Uvtha]

Siege needs a Trammel facet with Trammel rules, and more character slots.

We all understand you don't like siege, that's cool, to each his own. So you don't need to come here and troll. There's no need for it.

 

[Synbad]

I feel kinda stupid asking this but what is f2p?

 

[Tanivar]

I feel kinda stupid asking this but what is f2p?

f2p officially means free to play but in reality means fee to play. The game will charge you fees for all the things you need to actually do well. This makes them more money than the set monthly subscription fees do. Why it's so popular with the game makers.

 

[Uvtha]

f2p officially means free to play but in reality means fee to play. The game will charge you fees for all the things you need to actually do well. This makes them more money than the set monthly subscription fees do. Why it's so popular with the game makers.

Obviously, everyone knows that free to play comes with charges. I don't think anyone proposing it is like "Duh-doi it won't cost anything, how cool would that beeee??"

The prevelant f2p models have changed a lot over the years, and in some cases yes, you have your facebook app nonsense, but in others you have perfectly acceptable games with perfectly acceptable pay structures.

In all reality if they switched to f2p they would almost certainly keep subscriptions as part of it, as pretty much all f2p games do, and cost and gameplay wouldn't be any different for anyone paying a sub, except you might get extra bonuses (like monthly item store cash), and there would be more people to play with.

It's popular with game makers because it's 100% easier to get people in the door, and into the game where there isn't a monthy pay barrier. I personally know a handful of people who would never pay a cent for UO having never played it, but who WOULD try it if it were free, and would probably end up liking it a lot. The graphics are a big thing for modern gamers to get past, tack on a monthly charge, and it's gonna be a no sell most of the time.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Why should Siege players have to give up more? We've given away a lot over the years. No new player is going to start here, it will end up being the production players who grow tired of their shard and old players returning with no interest in Trammel.

Those players know what to expect, making our game worse so that the shard gets more populated is a bad thing...imho...la

 

[kelmo]

Make Siege better for the players here. Do that and more will come(back). I do not want more blessing this and insuring that... No more characters per account. No more easy buttons.

*grumbles*

 

[Tanivar]

Make Siege better for the players here. Do that and more will come(back). I do not want more blessing this and insuring that... No more characters per account. No more easy buttons.

*grumbles*

Making Siege better for players requires things change, what you clearly don't want to see happen. *shrugs*

 

[Aran]

We all understand you don't like siege, that's cool, to each his own. So you don't need to come here and troll. There's no need for it.

I've been playing Siege since 2000. What makes you think I don't like it? I'm sorry you can't see an opinion that isn't yours without automatically labeling it as "trolling"

 

[kelmo]

I didn't mean to imply I was unwilling to change. I just do not want to change to attract new players. I want change that would make the Siege experience more fun for those of us that play here. If we are having fun people will notice.

 

[Tanivar]

I want change that would make the Siege experience more fun for those of us that play here. If we are having fun people will notice.

Then lets allow those who come to Siege bring their deco items with them so they can have as nice of a house here as the one they left behind in prodo.

Would definitely settle for me whether I do keep playing Siege.

 

[Angel of Sonoma]

stop freaking killing newbs and maybe some players might stick around. i have a few accounts and created characters on seige. i even set up a vendor house in luna. but none of my characters are GM in any skill. it takes no skill to kill any of my toons. instead of killing, why doesn't anyone offer to help? this is my issue with seige.

 

[Tanivar]

stop freaking killing newbs and maybe some players might stick around. i have a few accounts and created characters on seige. i even set up a vendor house in luna. but none of my characters are GM in any skill. it takes no skill to kill any of my toons. instead of killing, why doesn't anyone offer to help? this is my issue with seige.

All fel rules areas have ashats who get their fun spoiling the fun of others. You just need to learn to avoid them. Luna is a thieves playground on Siege, not the main shopping center as it is on prodo. Here it's New Magincia and Zento that are the main shopping areas.

There are those willing to help. PM me and we can meet somewhere, perhaps I can help some.

 

[kelmo]

ask around in gen chat. be patient but someone will answer.

freaking killing newbs is just a knee jerk reaction... can't help my self.

 

[Bo Bo]

Make Siege better for the players here. Do that and more will come(back). I do not want more blessing this and insuring that... No more characters per account. No more easy buttons.
*grumbles*

well whats your idea??
blessings or insurance would help people put suits together faster, and let them use some of the things they acquired over the years.
No more easy buttons than what the hell are smoke bombs and hide stealth doing on siege. Dont get the Bo started on that resurrection tree. Thats a friggin joke, you wanna talk bout easy buttons.

Bo cant understand most of the people here. They want hardcore rules, yet they dont leave there house, when they do they wear the crappiest gear die in seconds, run stealth temps, taming, when they die they cry in chat or log out and dont log back in until they forgot how bad they got beat down. Than some of those people want more land. Are you kidding the Bo??? What is the first thing new people say when they do get here????? "WHERE IS EVERYONE" well guess what addin more land would do?

Are Bo's idea perfect no, is the Bo perfect well YES! now that we all agree to that. Let's look back at this thread you will see the real pvpers saying the same thing basically. Hell go drum up some of the old pvpers that were here and ask them what they think. They will have similar ideas as the three/four (included kat) pvpers that posted in this thread.