hmmm..... well, thank you for the validation. Was just making sure I wasn't over looking them. .... i could have sworn that I had once seen them up for sale.... but then maybe i was just looking at the wikepedia definition or something. ..... I was wanting to deco my home with wall torches... and I think that is the only way to get them. grrr. i wish there was at least an option to have a clean-up turn in for one. *shrugs*