[UO Herald] Producer's Update

[mjolnir131]

with the fact you have to log onto 2d nearly daily to fix things so 2d people can see them properly i'm really questioning the fact it's really the majority client.

 

[RawHeadRex]

Yet if Ford currently offered both a 1960s version and a 2010 version side by side today the 1960s would win hands down in sales. CC is dominant for a REASON.

aesthetically speaking, yes that is possible.

but functionally speaking ... tap-dancing-Jesus heck no.

 

[Woodsman]

Come on people. It is pointless to ridicule the majority players of UO

Neither side should be ridiculing the other - it's one of those things that have helped divide the UO community over the years that goes back to the Third Dawn beta, along with Tram/Fel, along with pushing players away from any official community and pushing them off to other websites, and the post AOS versus pre-AOs crowd, etc. So many things have divided UO players over th eyears.

When people bash the other side, it puts the other side on the defensive, and they turn around and do bashing of their own - most of us have done it, perhaps more subtle than others, but a lot of us have, especially when it comes to the client.

Ideally, EC users would accept that CC users will be around for a while, and CC users would accept that the EC and updated graphics are important to bringing in new users. CC users shouldn't gleefully bash EC users over the crashing problems and EC users shouldn't mock the CC users for being forced to use such outdated resolutions, etc., but many of us do it anyways (including myself).

It probably happens because some CC users are afraid there will come a point when EA pulls the plug on the CC, and EC users feel that the CC users have contributed to the EC remaining in a beta status (or at least jeered it and pressured the devs). This isn't the fault of either side - the fault lies with EA for a couple of reasons, including a lack of resources for UO, dev team turnover in the early years and especially after the 3D client was introduced and then after the KR was rebranded with Stygian Abyss and then seeing a bunch of devs canned/driven away, being wishy washy about the 3D and KR clients, "losing" original artwork and assets in the various moves, and overall a lack of a firm commitment and then seeing it through.

Ironically, we actually have a commitment that should appease both sides. With this latest news, EA is not pulling the "once the EC reaches a certain user level, we're pulling the plug on the CC" bit that they pulled in past years, and EA is acknowledging that many players play the CC as well as the stability problems with the EC holding others back from adapting it.

Whichever side you are on, UO needs more players, and most of us recognize that. We've all seen what happens to other MMOs that don't reverse the decline in subscriptions and none of us wants to go through that.

 

[Woodsman]

with the fact you have to log onto 2d nearly daily to fix things so 2d people can see them properly i'm really questioning the fact it's really the majority client.

EC users have the toggle to use classic containers so that they can see what it looks like in the CC, but I think many EC users don't realize that.

But you do point out a problem with the statistics - there are plenty of people who talk about logging in on both clients to do different things, and there is no indication on how that is measured or whether it's included.

 

[Elric_Soban]

That last post of mine was glib and nasty. I am sorry I allowed emotion to get the better of me.



That's what has surprised me. I simply looked at the basic, inarguable facts:

UO lost 75% of its customers over the past five years.

The original client cannot conceivably attract contemporary customers.

Maintaining two clients with already limited development resources impedes the creation of fresh content and a proper new player experience.

The EC is far easier to learn and use. Plus it has far greater functionality "out of the box." I know you can't see that. Nobody "raised" on the CC could, but it's true nonetheless.

Over the past year I've been playing this game:

I've seen former backbone shards shrink.

Loud and very public migrations of entire guilds to those few remaining populous shards where it's easy to live in denial.

Grave robbing become high entertainment. A building in decay is viewed with excitement and the behavior of people gathering around it as it's about to fall is beyond creepy.

Large clusters of people, on several shards, just sitting at Luna bank on vanity pets, clad in high end combat garb, NOT DOING ANYTHING. The first word that came into my mind was not a pleasant one: tumor....the Luna Tumor.

Not a single new player that is not, in fact, a returning player. Of these, I am the only one who has stuck it out this long - this is NOT a fact, but I simply don't know of any others.

So let me add one last item to the list of premises to this syllogism:

The people who remain care deeply and have enormous capital in time, emotion, and memory invested in this digital world.

Taken all in all, I just don't get it. Why aren't the veteran players BEGGING the dev team to drop the old client entirely? Having to learn a UI is such a small price to pay to improve the chances that something you care deeply for will continue to survive.

So I yielded to my bewilderment and posted something glib and, I now feel, rather insulting.

But I have to wonder if I'm witnessing some heretofore unknown and undocumented online community behavior that mirrors Lemmings in reverse. Lemmings resort of mass suicide when their numbers exceed resources. This lot demonstrates suicidal behavior when its numbers are shrinking.

Taken all in all, who would stick around? All the neat bits are there alright....I still logon....still play at combat in both tram and fel (though I'm not much good at it), still get and fill the BODs (a BRILLIANT character building game system btw) on the crafters I'm slowly creating, and all that. But how much more heart, mind, and time investment in all of this is rational?

I recall a bizarre oversight when house hunting once - an abandoned aquarium sitting the corner of a basement: a corner that, due to the intrusion of an oil tank nearby, kept it in near absolute darkness. Light only being about to bounce at right angles and all that.

There were still fish in it, although all expressions of love and care - lamps, heaters, little bubbly things meant to keep the water rich in oxygen - had long ago been either disconnected or removed. No food of course. So what fish were left? What survived in this dark, airless, cold aquatic universe in miniature where the only possible nourishment were the bodies of the survivors themselves?

Little fish. Nervous, suspicious little fish.

Although it saddens me that I recall this often when playing UO now, that the last lines of Tennyson's Ulysses no longer resonate in my wee brain as they did when I first elected to return, I can't quite seem to quit yet. Still bouncing from server to server, thinking that something of those braver days when online games had such a powerful hold over enormous personalities and fascinating people remains. You can't find it in those silly leveling games, that's for sure

-

^^ this.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who can think clearly. Well said, Jonathan Baron.

 

[Tina Small]

Neither side should be ridiculing the other - it's one of those things that have helped divide the UO community over the years that goes back to the Third Dawn beta, along with Tram/Fel, along with pushing players away from any official community and pushing them off to other websites, and the post AOS versus pre-AOs crowd, etc. So many things have divided UO players over th eyears.

When people bash the other side, it puts the other side on the defensive, and they turn around and do bashing of their own - most of us have done it, perhaps more subtle than others, but a lot of us have, especially when it comes to the client.

Ideally, EC users would accept that CC users will be around for a while, and CC users would accept that the EC and updated graphics are important to bringing in new users. CC users shouldn't gleefully bash EC users over the crashing problems and EC users shouldn't mock the CC users for being forced to use such outdated resolutions, etc., but many of us do it anyways (including myself).

Don't know if you were around at the time, Woodsman, (i.e., spring of 2007) but there was a terrible amount of gloating when the 3D client was closed down a few months before the KR client actually became available to all to try. I was one of the people who started playing UO many years after everyone else, knew no one else playing the game when I started, and naturally assumed 3D had to be better than 2D and therefore spent my first two-three years playing UO using the 3D client. Those couple of months between the time the shut-down was announced and when it was actually shut down were pretty painful if you were a 3D client user because you had no idea whether features of the client that were unique (e.g., resizable container views) would even be available in the new client. Then KR was rolled out. As a player who'd rudely had the only client she'd ever experienced yanked out from under her, I can tell you it was a HUGE disappointment to spend literally hours downloading the client when it was released for the public beta and then actually logging in and seeing how very, very ugly all my characters were and how absolutely useless the KR client "user's manual" actually was.

I think UO lost a fair number of 3D client users that spring. The cat calls and jeers for being a 3D client user were bad enough. Then came the crushing disappointment of the brand-new KR client.

 

[JC the Builder]

As a person hoping for some updates that will get me interested in playing UO again, this producer's update is very discouraging. The developers seem to be more interested in live events and adding silly trinkets such as distillery instead of substantial content updates. They appear to be completely sidestepping major issues such as PvE, PvP, the economy, and scripting.

They can keep adding as many gargoyle statues and animal hedges as they want. It won't bring new players to UO and it won't keep current ones from leaving.

 

[Woodsman]

Don't know if you were around at the time, Woodsman, (i.e., spring of 2007) but there was a terrible amount of gloating when the 3D client was closed down a few months before the KR client actually became available to all to try.

I missed KR but used the 3D client quite a bit before that.

That kind of open gloating is a part of the problem with the UO community, which has enough divisive issues as it is. It's not helped by the fact that many who still play UO played in the early days of UO and so the wounds and divisions from the major changes in the 2000 - 2003 era are still around.

I can understand the gloating a little bit. CC fans had to deal with the fact that their client was on a timer with the 3D and Kingdom Reborn clients. We're talking 8 years or so of having to accept the fact that EA had publicly stated that if usage of 3D or KR ever reached a certain point, the CC was going to be discontinued. That created a lot of animosity between CC fans and EA and 3D/KR fans. EA did not handle it well - they didn't support the 3D client in the years afterward like they should have (thanks to dev turnover) and EA ensured that some weren't going to touch the 3D client (And KR) out of a fear that they might count towards that percentage of users EA wanted to see before closing down the CC.

3D/KR/EC users have never really been under the gun like that. Like the situation you mentioned when 3D was closed down a few months or so before KR, there were a few times where a new client was in doubt, but other than that brief time, since 2001, there hasn't been that feeling for non-CC users that EA was just looking to close down their client.

With what Cal said, EA is acknowledging the CC as being around for a while, and is not putting the CC on a timer any more. That should relieve a lot of CC users.

At the same time, they recognize the value of the EC and new graphics - the new player experience is based upon the EC and they want new players to focus on the EC, and that should relieve a lot of EC users.

 

[Woodsman]

As a person hoping for some updates that will get me interested in playing UO again, this producer's update is very discouraging. The developers seem to be more interested in live events and adding silly trinkets such as distillery instead of substantial content updates. They appear to be completely sidestepping major issues such as PvE, PvP, the economy, and scripting.

They can keep adding as many gargoyle statues and animal hedges as they want. It won't bring new players to UO and it won't keep current ones from leaving.

The whole point of the little things that you see no value in such as the live events and distillery is that they can be done alongside the EC updates, new quest system, new player experience, and graphics update.

The EC, new quest system, new player experience, and graphics are HUGE projects for the team, given their size.

You said it best yourself in another thread a month or two ago when you said that the team should be larger and there should be a live team, a support team (EMs/GMs), and an expansion team (I think those are the teams you said), and each team would be focusing on their area. Instead we get a delay in PvP arena stuff because the person responsible for it is also responsible for the server migration, etc.

Not picking on Supreem, just thought that was a telling statement about the size of the UO team that he had to put an in-game system on hold because he was working with the server migration. In your scenario, he would be working on the live team (server migration as an example) and it would not slow down the expansion team (PvP Arena as an example).

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

When there's the actual PLAN (not some nebulous "when we reach X milestone") to shut down the 2d client, THEN I MIGHT have a twinge of sympathy, but until then, I'll simply return the animosity of the ATTITUDE that certain 2d players post here.

I started out playing 2d (considering it WAS UO in 1998) and stayed solidly 2d even for a while after the 3d client was released... at least until I had obtained a 17in LCD monitor which made the 2d client start to be too small for the resolution needed for the monitor. By that time they had tweaked 3d enough to be VERY playable. This was around 2003 (from 3d's release until then I dabbled in it, I played it for Ilshenar before Ilsh was accessible by 2d). So from 2003 forward I played 3d exclusively, learned its ins and outs, advantages, disadvantages, etc.

When they announced KR, I was ecstatic. I was more than willing to give up 3d, but there was a period that was tough to get through when KR was still in closed beta (and I wasn't in it) and they had shut down 3d. By that time, I was unwilling to downgrade my UO experience back to 2d.

Granted during this time I put up with the constant taunting about how much "3d sucks" on these boards, so the client wars are NOT a new thing.

So KR. KR I enjoyed IMMENSELY and still miss and wish I had taken at least 3x the number of screenshots I did. The hate directed towards KR was even more vitriolic than 3d, but myself and others endured. Yes it had plenty of problems, but we worked as hard as we could to send bug reports to the devs and even started the Player Patch Project which became the Modder's Exchange to fix and improve what we could.

I was sad to see KR go because IMO all it needed was more attention and tweaking. Instead it got stripped down, UI elements taken out, some stuff fixed and the graphics severely downgraded and turned into the EC.

So yeah, the 2d players who might be scared about losing their client can get back to me when it actually happens... until then I really have no sympathy for them. They can claim that UO needs to advertise, but until they can let go enough to allow the client to move forward, advertisement, shelf presence, or anything that would require a look more current than 1997 simply is not feasible.

So I'll wait to see how this next revamp turns out and hope for the best.

 

[Neutron Bomb]

Boy you have a world of hurt coming when they decide to scrap EC for the Ultimate Enhanced True 3D Client (That is really still 2D) - Coming Fall 2012.

 

[Woodsman]

Boy you have a world of hurt coming when they decide to scrap EC for the Ultimate Enhanced True 3D Client (That is really still 2D) - Coming Fall 2012.

I kind of wonder if all of the stuff being done for UO is being done since next year is the 15th anniversary.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

As long as it's:

1. A client that is moving forward in terms of UI capabilities, resolution, and artwork

and

2. I can make the swap over from an older client to a newer client without a delay of losing the first before having access to the second

I'm fine with giving up the EC for something better.

At the time both 3D and KR were shut down this really was not the case.

Hopefully, the upcoming work on the EC will make the difference.

 

[Neutron Bomb]

I kind of wonder if all of the stuff being done for UO is being done since next year is the 15th anniversary.

That consideration begs the question. And I will ask it not with any prejudice.

In our Guinness Photo, or our Magazine shot commemorating our 15th anniversary as the oldest full on production and still running MMO on the market....Now imagine...

To have displayed as the Classic Client, with graphics as old as the day it was introduced to the public, no enhancement over September(think it was sept) of 97'.

Or of the Enhanced Client with graphics only marginally better?

What would actually be better from an overall standpoint?

The "Oh hell, they haven't touched this game since the days I was rockin 007 on the N64"

or

"What the hell have they been doing this entire time? 15 years to give me this?"

Just a thought.

 

[Neutron Bomb]

...

As long as it's:

1. A client that is moving forward in terms of UI capabilities, resolution, and artwork

and

2. I can make the swap over from an older client to a newer client without a delay of losing the first before having access to the second

I'm fine with giving up the EC for something better.

At the time both 3D and KR were shut down this really was not the case.

Hopefully, the upcoming work on the EC will make the difference.

I play CC for nostalgia. Hell, I play UO anymore for nostalgia. CC does for me all I need it for. I make my rounds on vendors, I chat with my friends, and I polish my rares. As far as content is concerned, I feel like I have to be that person who lived under a rock his whole life to get excited over anything the game has to offer anymore.

It isn't so much that I am afraid they will get rid of CC, I simply do not play the game like I used to, and have no need or desire to play it any other way. I do not require all of the bells and whistles Pinco's UI offers.

So the only real deal breaker is graphics for me. I was excited for 3rd Dawn when it came out. I still have the original CD, and that paper Ish map packed away somewhere. Back then I was excited about everything. Then I saw the graphics and they were atrocious. So I didn't bother. The graphics ***** I am I guess.

For EA to break me off of CC, I would require a real graphics overhall that made me forget about original art altogether. I am sorry, but I do not need to play EC for more than several hours (Which yes I have actually done) to tell you that the graphics are simply not enough to pull me away from my other love of the game; nostalgia.

Some feel this is a 'weak' point, but it doesn't matter what this 'some' may think. The fact of the matter is, is that UO is getting stale, and I prefer to just play it like I always have. I understand it is a 14 year old game, so the CC's graphics I will let slide as I have for the 12 years I have played. I don't compare it to any other graphics of this day because it IS a 14 year old game. Back in the day, when I was more impressionable, UI would have been a deal breaker. Nowadays, graphics on EC are only slightly better considering how long the game has been out to actually dub it better graphics. Of course they both look horrible.

I'm tired and rambling. Cannot even get my thoughts sorted out. Goodnight.

 

[JC the Builder]

The whole point of the little things that you see no value in such as the live events and distillery is that they can be done alongside the EC updates, new quest system, new player experience, and graphics update.

The EC, new quest system, new player experience, and graphics are HUGE projects for the team, given their size.

I didn't say those things had no value. If UO had 100 developers, adding all this content is great. But they are doing holiday gifts, live events, Magincia, new items in the UO code store, etc. Where does the time for the EC updates and the new player experience come from?

Sunsword (former UO producer) said it himself 10 years ago when Scenarios (live events) overtook the UO team. It bogged down the development process and the team had no real time to work on other things. Obviously the UO team was larger back then, so with them doing all this Magincia stuff it could be even worse now.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I play on a 23in widescreen monitor at 1920x1080 resolution. Nostalgia or no, the 2d client is simply TOO SMALL to be useful for me. Gameplay window, UI windows, container windows, they're all tiny. Sure I could lower my monitor's resolution, but for those who still have a CRT instead of LCD Monitors, LCD monitors have a "native" resolution. Anything outside of that resolution will be distorted and difficult on the eyes to work with (which I agree is an issue with the EC because they used the 2d client and everything outside of the native resolution of the 2d client's graphics do the same thing... in fact it's the first thing I cover in my Finish the EC post linked in my sig).

With 3d, a LOT of the graphics were ugly because the client concepts were done WAAAY to early in the life cycle of polygon graphics and specifically online polygon graphics, and much of the rest have the exact same problem that the EC has... Legacy graphics + zoom = suck. But what 3d had was a lot of UI advances (some of which were added into 2d later on such as the paperdoll slots for jewelry, scroll wheel support, object handles, and shift/click to buy out a vendor) and super smooth animation.

KR fixed the resolution issue by providing graphics that were designed around and for the client. By and large the biggest problem was one of familiarity with the second being that the graphics simply needed a finalization pass to make them crisper where needed or replace ones that did not work with the system (such as many of the equipment item artwork that were too different from their 2d counterparts).

Instead they brought back the problems that the 3d client had by simply tossing out the artwork developed for higher resolution and going back to the artwork that was very much NOT designed for higher resolution.

And THAT I hope is what they are going to address in the upcoming art revamp for the EC... the question is how it will look.

I play UO because I enjoy the game. I enjoy the fact that it's deeper than "everyone's a fighter" that the level/raid clones use. I like that I can PvM until I get bored, then play my miner/crafter, then my fisherman, then something else entirely. No other game works on that level regardless of client. But that to me doesn't mean that UO can never advance technologically. That's the uniqueness of an MMOG. There's no need for a "sequel" because the original, if done correctly never ends. The structure allows it to become a sequel in itself and part of that is revamping the client on occasion (i.e. every 5 years or so).

I don't have any animosity towards the 2d client, I never even consider pointing fingers at one client or another UNTIL it becomes a focus of a thread and then it's due to the attitude put forward. If people come out with the client-hate towards a client I play, then yeah, I'm going to jump in guns akimbo with my experience, thoughts, and opinions. I've even made a point to make statements disagreeing with people who prefer the client I use based on what might be less than reasonable arguments from them (i.e. closing 2d = no more cheat programs is not really a good argument because there WILL be cheat programs for the EC if it becomes widely used).

I've played UO for over 13 years now... if I didn't enjoy the game, I wouldn't be here regardless of client, and I DEFINITELY wouldn't be putting in the hours put in to make UI graphical themes for people to use either.

 

[Woodsman]

I didn't say those things had no value. If UO had 100 developers, adding all this content is great. But they are doing holiday gifts, live events, Magincia, new items in the UO code store, etc. Where does the time for the EC updates and the new player experience come from?

Sunsword (former UO producer) said it himself 10 years ago when Scenarios (live events) overtook the UO team. It bogged down the development process and the team had no real time to work on other things. Obviously the UO team was larger back then, so with them doing all this Magincia stuff it could be even worse now.

I think the EC and graphics stuff and the new player stuff was pushed onto them earlier this year, after they had already started working on trying to finish the New Magincia/Virtuebane arc. It feels like this mini booster thing is just some cleanup work of stuff that was already in the pipeline, just like with how High Seas may have been either a part of something bigger that was canceled or well under progress by the time they turned it into a booster pack. Somebody said that a lot of the work was already done by the time they announced it.

High Seas had an actual theme. With this next mini booster thing, we are getting vendor bazaars, some new house walls, pet vending, topiary stuff, and brewing. The only theme here is maybe selling stuff. The topiary and brewing stuff are just simple remakes of existing systems, or additions to it.

I don't have it handy, but there was a timeline of events that somebody threw together either here or on UO Forums that indicated that these decisions (EC/graphics/etc) were made in January or February. It mentioned that they were set to do this whole two booster packs a year thing and then all of the sudden they start talking about completely overhauling four major UO systems, and the next booster pack was scaled way back to this small one that we now have.

It does seem like the EC/graphics/new player stuff came out of nowhere. Like I said, I'd feel a lot better if I started seeing some BioWare hires for UO.

I'd add that I'm surprised they didn't turn the Magincia lottery into a part of the booster pack - it would have sold quite well.

 

[SixUnder]

I dont hate EC

but after playing uo in CC in a certain view with a cretain way to move to killl people.

i just dont see it being worth the change.

 

[Alvinho]

I want the old 3-D client back i miss my bubble headed character!

BRING BACK 3-D!!!

 

[Amber Moon]

I didn't say those things had no value. If UO had 100 developers, adding all this content is great. But they are doing holiday gifts, live events, Magincia, new items in the UO code store, etc. Where does the time for the EC updates and the new player experience come from?

I've wondered this myself. They need at least two more developers. A full time dev for the client and one for the NPE, in addition to enough time from the art team. Then they could keep the main team tasked to the day to day stuff they are producing.

But I doubt it will happen. They are making the bed that we will all have to lay in, and it doesn't appear very comfortable. It is sad to see such a great IP left to wither.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Just a few comments.

That's what has surprised me. I simply looked at the basic, inarguable facts:

UO lost 75% of its customers over the past five years.

Much more realistic to say UO's down from its peak, and noticeably so.

To start citing specific numbers....Well, some recent press releases citing top-end UO subscriptions that were lower than what we always thought this game's peak was have made some of us reevaluate how popular this game ever was.

The original client cannot conceivably attract contemporary customers.

Much too absolute.

Maintaining two clients with already limited development resources impedes the creation of fresh content and a proper new player experience.

This one is, obviously correct.

Even if it weren't known just by common sense (can only do so many things when you have to do everything you do twice!), the team has said this again and again. They would greatly prefer having to work on only one client.

The EC is far easier to learn and use. Plus it has far greater functionality "out of the box."

That latter part I've actually heard disputed. Some have said that both the WoW client and UO's EC are actually not usable out of the box, need skins or mods to work well.

Grave robbing become high entertainment. A building in decay is viewed with excitement and the behavior of people gathering around it as it's about to fall is beyond creepy.

Umm....House camping is not new.

When housefall was keyed to opening the door, people with few friends (or at least few people with whom they were close enough to friend to their houses) who kept to themselves used to risk losing houses and possessions for taking a long vacation. One long vacation plus a few plane delays could easily mean a fallen house, and at minimum would lead to logging in to find a party on your lawn.

In Fel they would try to kill you before you could open the door.

And we're talking, in that instance, about alienating paying customers committed enough to have a house in-game, which not everyone had at that time.

Large clusters of people, on several shards, just sitting at Luna bank on vanity pets, clad in high end combat garb, NOT DOING ANYTHING. The first word that came into my mind was not a pleasant one: tumor....the Luna Tumor.

Before this the same thing happened in West Brit. People used to say nearly the same things about WBB sitters that they say about Luna Bank sitters now. Right down to wanting more invasions so they all die, and talking about vanity pets, save then it was white wryms and Faction Warhorses.

Not a single new player that is not, in fact, a returning player.

Happens. Rarely. Just a few of them are worth a better new player experience; retention, rather than mass recruitment (which is impossible for reasons that go well beyond the client) is not possible.

Taken all in all, I just don't get it. Why aren't the veteran players BEGGING the dev team to drop the old client entirely?

Because it is foolishness to assume UO's problems are due solely to the old client.

Part of it, surely; and the new client should be improved. Contrary to what one of the team said in the video, none of its admirers agrees that it's nearly there.

-Galen's player

 

[Woodsman]

I've wondered this myself. They need at least two more developers. A full time dev for the client and one for the NPE, in addition to enough time from the art team. Then they could keep the main team tasked to the day to day stuff they are producing.

But I doubt it will happen. They are making the bed that we will all have to lay in, and it doesn't appear very comfortable. It is sad to see such a great IP left to wither.

I would say they need more than just two new ones, but it's EA. I don't think it's being left to wither - they are updating several major systems of UO. It's just that it's not being supported like it should be. Maybe that's the same thing though.

I need to find the post, but it really feels like this stuff was dictated to them earlier this year. That's not a bad thing though, because that means somebody above them has changed UO's direction from booster packs to actually laying out a plan for UO's future. The scary part is that could indicate that UO was reaching a point where profitability was in doubt, and so somebody decided to take some serious action.

It could just indicate that EA has decided to boost some of its other properties in its fight with Activision (Star Wars vs World of Warcraft, Battlefield versus Call of Duty, etc.). They are reviving the Sims Online.

It'd be great if somebody above Cal came out and said something positive about UO's future.

 

[Woodsman]

That latter part I've actually heard disputed. Some have said that both the WoW client and UO's EC are actually not usable out of the box, need skins or mods to work well.

They are both playable, but not ideal. The idea (and it's not just WoW) is that players are different and have different ideas about what makes sense, so the developers give them the basics and let the community fill in the rest.

It's worked incredibly well. The add-ons for WoW are insane - addons that track all of your quests and recommend and even automatically add waypoints for future quests (which kind of makes it too easy), auction add-ons that track the prices of items in the auction house over time and that let you see what you could probably sell your loot for long before you ever make your way to the auction house, recipe addons for tracking what you need to make certain items, party add-ons, etc. It's actually pretty staggering the amount of add-ons for WoW. It would have taken Blizzard dozens, if not hundreds of developers to have developed all of those add-ons.

I don't think WoW would be nearly as popular as it was without all of the add-ons. It's actually very amazing the amount of creativity that have gone into a lot of the add-ons, and they've made the game accessible to many people who aren't normally gamers. Some people might see that as a negative though.

UO is lucky to have Pinco - just in the past few weeks we've seen a big bump in the abilities of his add-on, with it now doing auto-patching so that you don't have to mess with a lot of downloads and extracting and big downloads. If UO can bring in more players, there is a chance you'll get people who have worked with the UI's on other games who will contribute, which will make it better.

A lot of people bash the EC because it's much better with Pinco's UI, as if that's a reason to hate the EC, but the reality is that the UO team doesn't have the resources to do for the EC what all of the UO modders have done. Like it or hate it, it's great that the EC can be modified by the UO players. I think that's maybe a part of why some EC users are so passionate about the EC - for some of us, we end up doing so much customization that it becomes hard to think of playing UO without those abilities. I'm sure many EC players are running stock, but the hardcore fans probably have some crazy setups that they can't see themselves playing without. It's no different than trying to play the CC without UO Assist or a mapping add-on.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I know we're not supposed to discuss moderators actions, but I'd appreciate a notice when a carefully written 5 paragraph post (of which I took the time to read this whole thread for) is just getting edited out.

I don't even know who to turn to ?

 

[Mongbat137]

baw baw baw

I am so completely tired of this guy. Dude, we know the game doesn't have as many customers these days. It came out in 1997 and even the "enhanced" client looks like something from ten years ago. You running around doomsaying and weeping big fat emo tears over every IDOC is just tiresome bellyaching at this point.

Virtually all MMOs enter a state of subscriber decline after the first five years or so, there are lots of them out there still trucking along with fewer players than UO, and whatever magic plan you're hyping wouldn't change any of that.

Are the people still playing Everquest 1 as whiney as this? I swear. Yeah someday the game will close and we'll all end up playing on some semi-professional "donation" supported freeshard. Big deal. In the meantime try to have some damned fun with the game for a change.

Or go troll the Asheron's Call forums with "THIS GAME HAS LOST 90% OF ITS CUSTOMERS IN THE LAST 7 YEARS" or whatever.

 

[Trebr Drab]

I am so completely tired of this guy. Dude, we know the game doesn't have as many customers these days. It came out in 1997 and even the "enhanced" client looks like something from ten years ago. You running around doomsaying and weeping big fat emo tears over every IDOC is just tiresome bellyaching at this point.

Virtually all MMOs enter a state of subscriber decline after the first five years or so, there are lots of them out there still trucking along with fewer players than UO, and whatever magic plan you're hyping wouldn't change any of that.

Are the people still playing Everquest 1 as whiney as this? I swear. Yeah someday the game will close and we'll all end up playing on some semi-professional "donation" supported freeshard. Big deal. In the meantime try to have some damned fun with the game for a change.

Or go troll the Asheron's Call forums with "THIS GAME HAS LOST 90% OF ITS CUSTOMERS IN THE LAST 7 YEARS" or whatever.

If you're having trouble sleeping at night, may I recommend a small glass of Robert Mondavi Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon Napa Valley. It's a pure, rich and concentrated wine. This bold, graceful wine offers a deep core of earthy currant, blackberry and plum, with hints of herb, mocha an black licorice, giving it uncommon complexity and depth. Ends with firm tannins and a long, persisent finish. Best from 2010 through 2017.

It'll cost you less than a year's subscription to UO if you find the right supplier.

 

[Jonathan Baron]

Funny you should mention Melville, G.v.P. Oftentimes, when I consider Ultima, I think of Billy Budd.

 

[Mongbat137]

No really.

Asheron's call is a game with actual 3D graphics, not sprites. On top of that, they actually went through a successful graphical upgrade years ago. Nevertheless, between 2002 and 2007 the game lost about 90% of its subscribers, declining to something like 10-15k.

Was there some horrible, horrible mistake made over there that's keeping new players from flocking to Asheron's Call? Do they need their forum warriors to tell them some brilliant new plan that will take them from "Huh that game is still around?" to being the hot new thing again?

Or is the game just OLD, and declining in a market that expanded exponentially over that same period?

 

[Woodsman]

Nevertheless, between 2002 and 2007 the game lost about 90% of its subscribers, declining to something like 10-15k.

Was there some horrible, horrible mistake made over there that's keeping new players from flocking to Asheron's Call?

That time period just so happened to coincide with Asheron's Call 2, Turbine taking full responsibility for Asheron's Call from Microsoft, and botched housing that left a sour taste in a lot of player's mouth. Housing doesn't get a lot of attention, but had it not been botched it could have been something to help keep a lot of people around, much like UO does.

Come to think of it, Turbine has a serious issue with botching housing - just look at Lord of the Rings Online. That system is still unfinished and still creates a lot of anger among the players. Even though housing was first implemented during Microsoft's tenure, you would have thought Turbine would have learned from that, plus they had ex-UO developers who understood how important housing can be if done right.

The housing issues were eventually somewhat fixed and ebayers were barred from controlling the housing (arguably too late) , and Asheron's Call 2 was eventually canceled (also arguably too late), but the issue of Turbine being in full control of the franchise is still around.

But...World of Warcraft, EVE Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and a slew of other MMOs were released during that time as well.

Is age a factor? Sure, but just like EA with UO, Microsoft and then Turbine really made some major mistakes with the franchise, and they made those mistakes at a time when there was no room for mistakes.

UO is still a deeper game than AC and many other MMOs (and AC suffers from being a leveling game in a sea of leveling games), and if they do the graphics and the EC right, it still has a chance of drawing people in who are looking for something different.

I think a better comparison/model for UO is EVE Online - it came out in 2003, is PvP-oriented and is a sandbox (more so than UO), has went through graphics upgrades, and rather than starting off strong and peaking within 5 years, it has instead been steadily growing since its release.

You can take an MMO that doesn't have "Warcraft" in its title that has been out since Age of Shadows came out, and continue to grow the playerbase.

 

[Jonathan Baron]

Actually, until World of Warcraft's debut, MMO growth had been flat, several high profile launches (e.g. The Sims Online, Earth and Beyond, Majestic, Motor City Online, the Matrix Online, Hellgate London, and others I can no longer recall) either failed outright or were considered failures and canceled. Bright spots were Runescape, the aforementioned Eve, City of Heroes of course, and several games in the East where MMOs are a force beyond anything in West. Overall, roughly 330 MMOs exist at the moment around the world that are making money.

Further hampering things in the West were two counter-intuitive market realities that took awhile to sink in. Expansions do not grow subscriber bases. Second, the subscription model is shockingly less profitable than free to play microtransaction based games, particularly when viewed in of cost of revenue.

The good news for lovers of UO, however, is that when you compare it to games like Dark Age, AC, Warhammer and others, its customer base is stable and its decline far less in terms of real numbers. UO never commanded the numbers that Everquest did or that Runescape does. As I've probably noted earlier, the great irony of UO is that while it introduced the mass market to the MMO, it was never really a mass market game.

As you probably know, at the end of March, SOE closed three development studios in three cities, and had major layoffs at a fourth. They also canceled an MMO in development. Online gaming has moved more and more into the far more profitable realm of so-called casual games.

For those of us who envisioned a very different future for the medium....well...no need to go there. The medium has had its eulogy delivered several times in error and been mistakenly proclaimed a saturated market with equal frequency.

Balancing that is this, a continually supported game with a broadly stated future development plan. You'll always have manic type As like me who will insist with great fervor and relentless intensity that it has not yet begun to reach its full audience. That philosophy, however, may be wholly inappropriate for this game.....even though I will continue to believe it's true, not that that matters one fig...or even two figs.

Overall, I think it's an issue of this being a very, very young industry - still - that continues to suffer from being defined prematurely at a time of ******** innovation broadly in every realm of entertainment.....and others as well.
-

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

And it's funny that well at least here, at least for UO, as stratics is UO...

And that we call a rose, by any other name, smells as sweet...

I am the only one capable of claiming that I can build such a game, that it will make anything else looks childish.

You see I am not claiming to be a simple meek nerd that can tweak a better factions system. I am saying I have a radically new concept for a game, something that is well beyond what you see right now.

And coincidentally, I have been the meek nerd who lived on UO some of the strangest, most taboo events about it's transformation into the money monster it is today (deformed and mutilated)...

Active evil is better than passive good.

I think this is greatly appropriate to this now philosophico-technical discussion :

We Used To Know lyrics
Songwriters: Anderson, Ian;

Whenever I get to feel this way
Try to find new words to say
I think about the bad old days
We used to know

Nights of winter turn me cold
Fears of dying, getting old
We ran the race and the race was won
By running slowly

Could be soon we'll cease to sound
Slowly upstairs, faster down
Then to revisit stony grounds
We used to know

Remembering mornings, shillings spent
Made no sense to leave the bed
The bad old days they came and went
Giving way to fruitful years

Saving up the birds in hand
While in the bush the others land
Take what we can before the man
Says it's time to go

Each to his own way I'll go mine
Best of luck in what you find
But for your own sake remember times
We used to know

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.

You all be well, I'll keep it safe for someone worthy, it's not for sale.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

ok invisible moderator.. you win...

 

[Petra Fyde]

Ah no, one can stay. Three was a bit much

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I must have deleted one while you selflishlessly took time to correct my strange internet bug.



I am greatly honored that as a companion I have a voice, even if it fades in the dark ; which is why I proposed that stratics acquire a UO liscence and start their own server.

It seems silly to think I am special, and I think it is because it's silly that I feel I must pursue it.

I am not special because I'm better than anyone ; it's pure luck.

Because I was there when armageddon was cast...

now to find a worthy avatar...

btw EA still hasn't resolved my payment issue, I'm still waiting for a reply... I am almost starting to feel as if they do not want me on there anymore.

I was having so much fun on siege, they basically told me to get another credit card even if they have no idea why it won't work...

Anyways I'll be back soon... do those gift cards work ?

 

[Petra Fyde]

yes, they work. We use a pre-paid cash card.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I'll get one tomorrow... siege here I come !

 

[Mongbat137]

That time period just so happened to coincide with Asheron's Call 2

A game absolutely no one played, whose empty servers were shut down in disgrace after mere months. The idea of it stealing players from AC1, or anything, is laughable.

Turbine taking full responsibility for Asheron's Call from Microsoft, and botched housing that left a sour taste in a lot of player's mouth. Housing doesn't get a lot of attention, but had it not been botched it could have been something to help keep a lot of people around, much like UO does.

Bla bla bla, there's always some unpopular design decision you can try to fob responsibility off on, but get real. AC didn't shed 90% of it's customers because they "botched housing". They shed 90% of their customers because the game is older than crap and dozens of high-budget competitors have come out since its heyday. AC used to be one of the "big three" when there were ONLY three. Now you get at least three big MMOs per year.

But hey if they didn't "botch housing" all the kiddies would be lining up around the block to play Asheron's Call in 2011. Hurhur.

And EQ1, and Anarchy Online, and Dark Age of Camelot, and City of Heroes, and Lineage, and everything. Did they all just coincidentally screw up, all at the point where they got to be old and the competition got stronger? Games get OLD.

I think a better comparison/model for UO is EVE Online - it came out in 2003

And was a giant disastrous failure, garnering only about 50k subscribers in it's first two years. The only reason EVE existed long enough to eventually find success was because it was bought off the publisher for pennies on the dollar.

is PvP-oriented and is a sandbox (more so than UO), has went through graphics upgrades, and rather than starting off strong and peaking within 5 years, it has instead been steadily growing since its release.

Again, only because their release was an unmitigated disaster and there was nowhere to go but up. Besides which, EVE has no real competitors. There's no useful lesson for EA to take from EVE. "Be a space-based sci-fi MMO that has no direct competitors, but still flop on release so you can steadily grow as you slowly get your crap together!" isn't really useful advice for UO.

 

[Woodsman]

A game absolutely no one played, whose empty servers were shut down in disgrace after mere months. The idea of it stealing players from AC1, or anything, is laughable.

It lasted three years which is longer than "mere months", and it consumed resources that could have been better spent on AC, just as all of the resources spent on UO2 and Ultima Origins could have ultimately been spent on UO. There were some bad decisions made.

Bla bla bla, there's always some unpopular design decision you can try to fob responsibility off on, but get real. AC didn't shed 90% of it's customers because they "botched housing". They shed 90% of their customers because the game is older than crap and dozens of high-budget competitors have come out since its heyday.

I didn't say it lost 90% of its customers because of one thing. I used housing as an example of a botched decision decision/design issue that did not help with customer retention, but it wasn't older than crap in 2001 when player housing was introduced and when some of the other major decisions were being made. It still had room for growth, especially as it was one of the "big three" as you pointed out, although Dark Age of Camelot was around the corner, as were a few others.

It's real easy to dismiss decisions made in 2001 or 2002 as being insignificant, but at that point in time for AC, there was little room for errors, and the room for error rapidly shrank as more MMOs came online in following years. Decisions were being made that should have helped fortify the playerbase at that point.

And EQ1, and Anarchy Online, and Dark Age of Camelot, and City of Heroes, and Lineage, and everything. Did they all just coincidentally screw up, all at the point where they got to be old and the competition got stronger? Games get OLD.

UO was "old" in 2004 at 7 years old when it peaked and when 3D MMORPGs were the norm so there is a lot more at work than merely age.

World of Warcraft is 7 years old and the era you are discussing - outside of UO, those games were all well less than 7 years old.

Can age be a factor? Yes.

Is it the only factor? No, otherwise UO would be dead, the EverQuest franchise would be dead, EVE Online would be dead, and the predictions of World of Warcraft dying because it was getting long in the tooth would be steadily flowing across the internet.

Bad decisions are bad decisions, period. Just ask Star Wars Galaxies fans or any fans of MMOs that have went under. Ask Camelot fans how the Mythic sale to EA went. Talk about your bad decisions.

Again, only because their release was an unmitigated disaster and there was nowhere to go but up. Besides which, EVE has no real competitors. There's no useful lesson for EA to take from EVE. "Be a space-based sci-fi MMO that has no direct competitors, but still flop on release so you can steadily grow as you slowly get your crap together!" isn't really useful advice for UO.

It took UO several years to get its act together until it offered non-PvP options. Say what you will about EVE Online, but here we are 8 years later and they continue to grow in subscriptions and number of people simultaneously logged in, and they are about to spin off a highly-anticipated MMOFPS that will be played within the EVE Online universe.

If you don't think that there isn't a useful lesson or three to be taken from a game that overcame early problems and is now much larger than UO ever was at its peak, especially a sandbox game that does not offer a true non-PvP option, I don't know what to say.

Games that survive and then thrive after even just 5 years are few and far between. Warcraft, EVE Online, even EverQuest as a franchise (and EQ 3 is coming out later this year), among others, and definitely UO, are rare because they survived past 5 years, and in some cases were doing better 5 years after launch than they were at launch - you'll get no argument from me about that.

It's become the norm these days to peak in the first few months and then steadily decline, whereas in the past, it was the opposite. That's not to say that bad decisions can't be overcome - EVE Online as you pointed out, had problems. I'd say early UO had serious problems. As fondly as some remember it, there were plenty of people quitting over one thing or another in the first few years.

I think UO can still have a solid future, it's just at a crossroads of sorts. EA now wants bigger, better, and more profitable games, and is focusing its resources on fewer games and franchises than in the past, and UO doesn't seem to have any champions willing to look out for it since Mark Jacobs was forced out. EA will dump $100 million into just advertising in its Battlefield/Call of Duty fight with Activision and $300 million into Star Wars in its fight over World of Warcraft with Activision, but it doesn't seem willing to dump even $5 million extra in UO, even as other major MMO players are expanding the variety and number of MMOs they are offering, and realizing that it's better to have multiple MMOs rather than betting everything on just one.

What's really bad for us is that UO has been harmed by the poor performance of other games/franchises (including Warhammer) during a period when arguably good decisions were being made. Outside of the Kingdom Reborn/Enhanced Client fiasco, Stygian Abyss was a great expansion, and if they had been given (or allowed to keep) the proper resources, High Seas could have been much better received (and less buggy).

 

[Mongbat137]

Oh yeah AC2 did linger around empty a couple of years before they finally took it out behind the barn and put a bullet in it. Oh if only they had spent those resources on AC1, people would totally remember that it existed.

Incidentally, World of Warcraft? Their last subscriber milestone came during Wrath of the Lich King. All the hoopla for the release of Cataclysm, and there hasn't been a peep from them on their number of customers.

At just past the six-year mark, World of Warcraft is in decline. Oh sure they'll still be the biggest fish in the pond for years to come based on the sheer height they have to decline from, but nevertheless they are in decline. After an expansion where they went all-out revamping everything from level 1-60.

 

[Merion]

Yay! A CC vs EC flamefest!

You cannot see that often enough

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

It's more than that, if only you took the time to read...

 

[AtlanteanAngel]

The existence of UO now hangs on this thread (EA took a gamble with making a new client, little suspecting it was weaving this thread of fate that could destroy UO).

Half the playerbase : "We'll quit UO immediately if the CC is terminated!"

Other half the playerbase : "We'll quit UO immediately if the EC is terminated!"

EA Mythic : "We'll have to terminate UO if we have to continue sustaining both clients, becoz spreading our limited Dev resources thin with two clients doesn't make our greedy top EA execs happy. And of course, we'll DEFINITELY have to terminate UO as well if half the playerbase quits, because as it is our greedy top EA execs are already unhappy with UO's current profit margin."

So, could this be the straw that finally does UO in?

 

[Woodsman]

Yay! A CC vs EC flamefest!

Really not much of one though. EA said they would concentrate on the EC this year, while continuing to support the CC, so both sides should be pretty happy.