Smoking the victory (Obama) cigar...

[Troll The T Hunter]

obama isn't the president yet, slow down for a moment

 

[Uvtha]

ya now it'l be perfect..gouge the rich successful people and big corporations more so their incomes hurt. then start more socialist programs and give more handouts to the poor.

I hear ya! The way things are now is the way it should be the poor people pay the bills and the rich people get the bonuses!

The LAST thing this country needs is more "socialist handout" programs like healthcare and education. These things are useless. All they do is make poor people smarter (so they might begin to complain about how screwed they are) and make the live longer (and as such complain for a longer time).

Terrible prospects.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

You know, social security was meant to be a "safety net" for people that needed it. Now, it's bankrupting the nation. Nuh uh. No more handouts.

That is by far in the top 5 most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

Our country has the freest and easiest path to citizenship and also the best method for allowing its citizens any blessing or luxury if they work hard enough for it. I took out loans and put myself through school with 2 children and work at a company that gives great medical care. why? because I knew that if I wanted to make sure my children and my family were taken care of, I would have to do it. I am against any person who is not willing to put the time effort and blood into making it possible for them to take care of their family and themselves.

Those borders were wide open long before Barak was even and adult. yes, I believe we should tighten up on the borders, but like I said you can't blame that on Obama.

And what about the people born with no arms or no legs, or injured in war fighting for our freedom? You still think they should work just as hard as you to get healthcare?

 

[Ole Cheapy]

Hera I appreciate and understand the issues that you are discussing. but the fact remains that the majority of people who do not have decent healthcare coverage, do not because they do not take the measure necessary to achieve healthcare coverage.

You do realize that insurance employee's have been coming forward and saying that the insurance companies were offering them bonuses to turn down people for insurance who were sick. You do realize this don't you? maybe you should do your homework before you let garbage like that out?

Everything is not black and white, there is a gray area out there and believe it or not insurance companies are the dirtiest of the dirty! So no, everyone who don't have insurance didnt just sit on their butts and do nothing or not take neccesary measures, some got a good ole sticking in the behind area.

 

[Uvtha]

I think we should tax the rich in UO.
I don't think we need a poll or anything to do it- this recent election alone shows that we want hardworkers to have to distribute their wealth amongst the poor and unfortunate members of society. Let's do it!

If you have more than... say, 10 million gold, you should be taxed 30% of it and it should be distributed amongst players with less than 10 million gold! Sounds good to me! Stop them rich from getting richer while the poor get poorer! Sorry Republican players, the voice of the people has spoken!

Oh, lets also institute an assault weapons ban! Any weapon capable of doing more than 6 damage should be banned.

Hooooray!


*eyes all the rich players greedily* wheres my money!?!?!?


EDIT: Oh, and my tax idea also applies to silver. Continue yoru silver farming people! I will sit here and wait for you to do all the work for me so that I can benefit from it through social programs and wealth redistribution!

This would be a valid analogy if in the real world everyone started off on a 100% equal footing, and had all avenues instantly available and undeniable to them, there were an endless amount of top end professions, no one ever got sick, or hurt, or hungry or cold, or pregnant, or on and on. The only factor to success in UO is time invested. In real life its completely different.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

socialized medicine already exists here...you just have to be the right race to get it. and after seeing it in action...i'm not so sure i think its that good of idea anymore

Well if it's all the same with you, I'd like to know exactly what race you havce to be. Care to elaborate?

 

[Scuzzlebutt]

That is by far in the top 5 most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Which part? The part where he says social security is bankrupting our nation? In 2007 our nation budget was somewhere around 2.7 trillion dollars, over 40% of that was spent on social security. 1.15 trillion dollars... we spend less than half that in national defense, the next closest cost.

 

[Mogluk]

as harsh as it may sound but how many years prior to you getting married and having children (if that was the route) Did you have to build your self (whether it be education, career, job re-education). a majority of individuals waste years of their life partying and playing around until they get serious and have children ( that may or may not be your situation). Or the serious part of life lands on them without any notice.

I understand that "college" is not for all people but there are huge areas of experienced and skilled jobs which are out there if you are willing to put the time in. You have a very tough situation, you need help, that is obvious. agree that we often have coments only for those who abuse the system, but if you can't get help is it because the system is broken or is it because you are not playing the 'game' correctly.

'whos going to support my family'

have you heard of loans and the pell grant system. As soon as you have kids your in the money for education (trust me I know), you just have to fill out the paperwork ( which is a pain). Go to community college get a license, degree, diploma whatever it takes to improve your station (ever hear of an electrician? contractor? mechanic?). doing that will in no way disqualify you for Government help (Which I believe is there for people in hard situations, like yours). I am saying that there is a very small percentage of people who CAN"T make it.... the majority of people choose to not make the sacrifice required to make it....

I am not saying that you are not deserving of help ( and I help everyone I can, and that's in game and out of game) what I am saying is that if you are not even trying to change your station why should we be helping you? where is your plan?...what goals do you have? what exactly will it take for you to achieve your dreams? if you can't answer basic questions like those then you will never make it and you will toil away and never realize your real potential.

and just for one comment you made "Buying your own healthcare coverage is insanely expensive. This is a poor choice."

that sentence yells at me that you feel like your life is out of your control. buying your own healthcare coverage may be expensive but then your only block is the amount of money you have to make each month to pay premiums..thats easily in your control, it just takes work and I am not saying work three jobs I am saying you find the jos taht compliment time, effort and help reduce your costs ( I worked in a hospital wiping asses.... to make sure my family had at least basic healthcare, if you can do that thats one job no one wants but I can guarantee you, you will have healthcare coverage). In an addition to taht I worked at night cleaning a couple offices and I passed the paper on a route. I also worked at a supermarket to reduce costs for food and the life essentials). is there a walmart? try the night stocker, you get the employee discount and you get a shift differential....

look around for small business opportunities they are there......

 

[Trep]

Well if it's all the same with you, I'd like to know exactly what race you havce to be. Care to elaborate?

nope, because everyone will jump all over my back and call me an ignorant racist blah blah blah.... because apparently its offensive to call pieces of ****...pieces of **** if they're not white

but i'm sure you can figure it out....

 

[Draxous]

From the other thread:

Actually. Obama's tax plan shafts everyone in the ass.

Think about it... he's made it clear from the get-go that he plans on taxing business and rich... Ok, rich... who cares. Business? Well that's where the wool was successfully pulled over America's eyes.

Where do businesses get their money from? Why oh... it's us.

So when a business gets taxed more dollars... who pays for it? Why oh... it's us.

When businesses incur more costs... they do one (or both) of two things:

1. Raise the price of their goods and services

2. Become more efficient (reorganize, stop hiring or cut shops/lay off people.)

This is the WHOLE POINT of having tariffs! You tax another nations cheap crap so they have to sell it at a comparable price to the crap we already have. DUH!

So to sum it up... while the majority will get a little more in taxes back at the end of the year (and even then you people are sheep if you can't recognize that-that is just the government repaying you and interest free loan... DUH)

The one's who are suffering economically will be paying more for things like toilet paper, tooth paste, soap, food, everything... because these businesses will have to pay higher taxes.

Not only that, but now... there will be even less jobs and less hiring as corporations (already strapped) scramble to cover the costs of these new taxes.

It's not the end of the world... but things are sure as hell going to suck worse than they otherwise could have.

Sweet.

 

[Mogluk]

to ole cheapy:

You do realize that insurance employee's have been coming forward and saying that the insurance companies were offering them bonuses to turn down people for insurance who were sick. You do realize this don't you? maybe you should do your homework before you let garbage like that out?

this is not a cut or dry issue. we in america allow insurance companies to work for a PROFIT... and too do that they must take cost cutting issues. would you hire an employee if you KNEW that they would cost you money and not make money for you... what if there was just a high CHANCE that they would cost you ore oney than they would make. I don't disagree that an insurance companies position is a tough one, but ultimately unless your disabled (which completely takes you out of this arguement). you have control over how you get coverage. do you look at relocating to a new state taht has better health care coverage requirements (don't live in CA if you want cheap healthcare coverage). you have to show your initiative. most peopel who make it in life did it because they did not allow themselves to be stopped by the first couple of failures. Edison required over a 1000 attempts until he found the light bulb.....how many attempts do you need?

 

[Draxous]

ya now it'l be perfect..gouge the rich successful people and big corporations more so their incomes hurt. then start more socialist programs and give more handouts to the poor.

I hear ya! The way things are now is the way it should be the poor people pay the bills and the rich people get the bonuses!

The LAST thing this country needs is more "socialist handout" programs like healthcare and education. These things are useless. All they do is make poor people smarter (so they might begin to complain about how screwed they are) and make the live longer (and as such complain for a longer time).

Terrible prospects.

Name ONE social program this nation has enacted that worked properly. (Just one.)


And read my previous post if you think we need to tax our businesses more. What we need to do is eliminate WASTE spending... not just spend more on crap that 1. won't work properly and 2. will be sub-par just like any other social program.

Lets not even mention how taxing the corporations more will screw everyone because everything just became that much more expensive to buy as every business passes its costs onto its consumers or labor force.

GOOD JOB

 

[Uvtha]

You are missing a key point. You very clearly used the word "everybody". What about the people that the social programs do not help? Do they not count as 'everybody?' How is my giving more tax money to pay for other people's problems helping me? I volunteer at the Special Olympics and donate to the United Way when I want to help other people at my own expense. I do NOT want someone forcing me to help other people at my own expense.

You must understand that the reason we have a government, and taxes is because the people who have the money share your attitude (to clarify i'm not bashing you, you are more than free to have the opinion that you owe no one, its perfectly valid) and as such there would be no things like schools or health care or any of the other state and national programs that every one enjoys.

We live in a society, and have set up a system to govern us to maintain that society, and that means all of the individuals that make it up. These things cost money. There are only so many places this money can come from, and taxation of course is the most obvious choice. As such it would make sense to me that the people who make the most money would be the ones that give the most, because they can afford to. Of course many people view this as a punishment for being fortunate enough to be successful, but what other choice is there? Take the money from the poor, thats whats been happening, and it doesn't work. The most important factor is that the giving the rich are asked to do does very little to harm them. They are still rich. They still live affluent, and comfortable lives.

This isn't arguing the fact that many people do not want to help others less fortunate than themselves with their money, even when they can easily afford to do so. That is the right of the individual.
It's just a simple examination of why the rich should be the ones paying the most in upkeep of the society that we live in, something we can all agree takes money, because doing so will not potentially ruin their lives, and lock them and their families in unending circles of poverty, that many generations of Americans now suffer from.

 

[Draxous]

Well if it's all the same with you, I'd like to know exactly what race you havce to be. Care to elaborate?

nope, because everyone will jump all over my back and call me an ignorant racist blah blah blah.... because apparently its offensive to call pieces of ****...pieces of **** if they're not white

but i'm sure you can figure it out....

Yeah dude... just like it's racist if the white population wouldn't of voted for Obama just because he's black... but it's not racist that damn near every black man/woman who voted-voted for Obama.

It apparently only works one way.

 

[Draxous]

You are missing a key point. You very clearly used the word "everybody". What about the people that the social programs do not help? Do they not count as 'everybody?' How is my giving more tax money to pay for other people's problems helping me? I volunteer at the Special Olympics and donate to the United Way when I want to help other people at my own expense. I do NOT want someone forcing me to help other people at my own expense.

You must understand that the reason we have a government, and taxes is because the people who have the money share your attitude (to clarify i'm not bashing you, you are more than free to have the opinion that you owe no one, its perfectly valid) and as such there would be no things like schools or health care or any of the other state and national programs that every one enjoys.

We live in a society, and have set up a system to govern us to maintain that society, and that means all of the individuals that make it up. These things cost money. There are only so many places this money can come from, and taxation of course is the most obvious choice. As such it would make sense to me that the people who make the most money would be the ones that give the most, because they can afford to. Of course many people view this as a punishment for being fortunate enough to be successful, but what other choice is there? Take the money from the poor, thats whats been happening, and it doesn't work. The most important factor is that the giving the rich are asked to do does very little to harm them. They are still rich. They still live affluent, and comfortable lives.

I went ahead and bolded all the parts that either don't make sense or are just flat out wrong.

This isn't arguing the fact that many people do not want to help others less fortunate than themselves with their money, even when they can easily afford to do so. That is the right of the individual.

What?!!?

This IS arguing the fact that many people do not want to help others less fortunate so you want to MAKE them do so.

...

Your logic is very very skewed...

 

[Ole Cheapy]

I understand that "college" is not for all people but there are huge areas of experienced and skilled jobs which are out there if you are willing to put the time in. You have a very tough situation, you need help, that is obvious. agree that we often have coments only for those who abuse the system, but if you can't get help is it because the system is broken or is it because you are not playing the 'game' correctly.

'whos going to support my family'

have you heard of loans and the pell grant system. As soon as you have kids your in the money for education (trust me I know), you just have to fill out the paperwork ( which is a pain). Go to community college get a license, degree, diploma whatever it takes to improve your station (ever hear of an electrician? contractor? mechanic?). doing that will in no way disqualify you for Government help (Which I believe is there for people in hard situations, like yours). I am saying that there is a very small percentage of people who CAN"T make it.... the majority of people choose to not make the sacrifice required to make it....

I understand that it's not common knowledge to the average American, but trust when I tell you that NO ONE can borrow money in this reccession we're in now. Car dealerships are closing because banks are not lending for car loans, credit card companies are going under because of the same reason, and students are even having the hardest time ever getting student loans. Hell this may come as a surprise to you, but banks normally lend money to each other all the time, but they're not even lending to each other right now, cuz noo one knows which bank is gonna be the next bank to bite the dust!

I spend 8-10 hours a day, 4 days a week talking to underwriters and financial institutions, so trust me when I tell you that unless you have at least a 680-720 credit score with a lot of liquid assets, you ain't getting no loan.

Wanna guess what the average American's credit score is?

All I'm saying is it's not as easy for some people as you may believe.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

nope, because everyone will jump all over my back and call me an ignorant racist blah blah blah.... because apparently its offensive to call pieces of ****...pieces of **** if they're not white

but i'm sure you can figure it out....

ROFL... well the reason i asked because it is my belief that you're not only stereotyping, but you're incorrect about what you think. Come to me with some proven stats and not some crap that you hear in your neighborhood, I think you may be surprised at what you may find.

 

[Hera - Siege]

'whos going to support my family'

have you heard of loans and the pell grant system.

Yes, the current administration was very nice to drastically cut Pell Grants. Although they did increase loans. But you're not going to be able to feed even a 3 person family on Pell Grants and Loans. The students under my employ usually get tuition, and books paid for and then about $1000.00 left over. If you're in School Full time, 1000.00 to cover 16 weeks of housing, food and other expenses ain't enough. Although Health-care is taken care of by being a student, although I'm not sure how comprehensive it is regarding my particular example.

Edit: And yes you can work while in school, but it's fairly unrealistic to assume one can work 40 hours a week to support a family and attend school full-time. While I was in school I worked about 20 and that was rough enough as it was.

and just for one comment you made "Buying your own healthcare coverage is insanely expensive. This is a poor choice."

that sentence yells at me that you feel like your life is out of your control. buying your own healthcare coverage may be expensive but then your only block is the amount of money you have to make each month to pay premiums..thats easily in your control, it just takes work

Have you looked at purchasing your own healthcare? For a decent plan you're talking $1200/month. That's a LOT of business for a small business owner. [I happen to know, I actually am one.] Add onto that the cost of housing, car, food, daycare/etc. and you're talking clearing $2400+ per month over your operating expenses. I don't know about you, but I don't know of a lot of small business that can just start-up with little initial investment and clear $2400.00 take home. $1200 also a lot of 'extra hours' at another job to make up for poor health-care.

There isn't an easy answer, and straight 'national' health-care isn't the solution either, because I do believe that our current 'incentive' system does promote innovation and I'd be curious to see how many of the 'national systems' would be as well off if we hadn't come up with some of the drugs/etc they provide.

But once again saying "Get a better job, or buy you're own" really isn't a solution either, if that was truly that easy, then you'd have massive prices increases because employers wouldn't be able to keep people due to them leaving for 'better jobs' or those companies would go out of business because no-one would work for them.

 

[Goron]

Wanna guess what the average American's credit score is?

680.
(thats a fact jack!)


And, all this loan talk...
umm, in school my credit score dipped below that and I still picked up extra college loans, a new $3000 limit credit card, and a $7500 motorcycle loan... easy as pie...

 

[Ole Cheapy]

Yeah dude... just like it's racist if the white population wouldn't of voted for Obama just because he's black... but it's not racist that damn near every black man/woman who voted-voted for Obama.

It apparently only works one way.

You apparantly had too much cigar last night, this election was not about white and black, it was about young and old. This is a new generation and a new America, and they simply WILL NOT stand for the bull that has been tolerated in the past.

If you disagree with me, when Rev. Jackson ran for president he didn't even come close to be elected, even with the african american votes. But today is a new day and America has taken the step to change the way things have been for way too long. Good for America!

 

[Uvtha]

Yes, I do. I really, really, REALLY do. I am sick and f'ing tired of my wife and I busting our asses day in and day out to pay for someone else to get something for nothing. Sorry. I am not opposed to helping someone out as an exception but not as the rule. You know, social security was meant to be a "safety net" for people that needed it. Now, it's bankrupting the nation. Nuh uh. No more handouts.

Did you or your wife or any of your children ever go to a public school? Did you ever ride on public transportation? Have you ever driven you car on a road? Have you ever been protected, or made to feel safe by the police, or the armed forces? Have you even enjoyed a public park, or lake, or trail, or river? Have you ever checked a book out from the library?

Or on the less likely side:

Have you ever lived through a natural disaster? Have you ever had a loved one age to the point that they can no longer work? Have you ever had such an aged relative suffer from a sickness....

This is how a government works. They take tax money for things that people need to have, and enjoy. We all pay for it. The notion that the people who CAN'T afford it should be more responsible for footing the bills rather than the people who CAN afford it, is simply counter productive.

 

[RedDaTeef]

You guys can argue any litlle point that you believe to be true til yer blue in the face, but like it or not your new mama is Obama. So pucker up.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

680.
(thats a fact jack!)


And, all this loan talk...
umm, in school my credit score dipped below that and I still picked up extra college loans, a new $3000 limit credit card, and a $7500 motorcycle loan... easy as pie...

Well it sure aint the average that I've been getting, but I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt, but talking about how you got your loans in the past is nothing compared to what's going on right now. The recession has hurt the entire nation, including banks. Why do you think there was ever a "bail out" in the first place? The bailout was to start lending money agin to put the money into the economy, the problem is banks still aren't lending, instead they're throwing $500,000 parties and giving themselves bonuses and whatnot.

 

[Trep]

ROFL... well the reason i asked because it is my belief that you're not only stereotyping, but you're incorrect about what you think. Come to me with some proven stats and not some crap that you hear in your neighborhood, I think you may be surprised at what you may find.

wow, cause i (and everyone else) totally give a **** what you think

 

[Black magick]

You must understand that the reason we have a government, and taxes is because the people who have the money share your attitude (to clarify i'm not bashing you, you are more than free to have the opinion that you owe no one, its perfectly valid) and as such there would be no things like schools or health care or any of the other state and national programs that every one enjoys.

We live in a society, and have set up a system to govern us to maintain that society, and that means all of the individuals that make it up. These things cost money. There are only so many places this money can come from, and taxation of course is the most obvious choice. As such it would make sense to me that the people who make the most money would be the ones that give the most, because they can afford to. Of course many people view this as a punishment for being fortunate enough to be successful, but what other choice is there? Take the money from the poor, thats whats been happening, and it doesn't work. The most important factor is that the giving the rich are asked to do does very little to harm them. They are still rich. They still live affluent, and comfortable lives.

This isn't arguing the fact that many people do not want to help others less fortunate than themselves with their money, even when they can easily afford to do so. That is the right of the individual.
It's just a simple examination of why the rich should be the ones paying the most in upkeep of the society that we live in, something we can all agree takes money, because doing so will not potentially ruin their lives, and lock them and their families in unending circles of poverty, that many generations of Americans now suffer from.

This is hilarious, seriously, where do you come up with this garbage? Why should someone who worked hard their whole life to get rich be forced pay for those who don't have the same initiative? This country is capitalistic, period. The opportunity is there, all you have to do is reach out and grab it. I have no sympathy for those who want everything given to them and fail because of it.
It is not the governments place to save every person whose struggling financially. Its not the governments place to step into the private affairs of the people. Its the governments place to protect us and make sure this country doesn't turn to chaos. And if anything the government really should be more worried about the problems it has, rather than all of ours, that would be a lot more secure for our grandchildren.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

ROFL... well the reason i asked because it is my belief that you're not only stereotyping, but you're incorrect about what you think. Come to me with some proven stats and not some crap that you hear in your neighborhood, I think you may be surprised at what you may find.

wow, cause i (and everyone else) totally give a **** what you think

Thinking has nothing to do with it, if you wanna know for sure then do some research and educate yourself, but if you just wanna sit around feeling sorry for yourself thinking someone is leeching off you then continue to do exactly what you're doing right now.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

This is hilarious, seriously, where do you come up with this garbage? Why should someone who worked hard their whole life to get rich be forced pay for those who don't have the same initiative? This country is capitalistic, period. The opportunity is there, all you have to do is reach out and grab it. I have no sympathy for those who want everything given to them and fail because of it.
It is not the governments place to save every person whose struggling financially. Its not the governments place to step into the private affairs of the people. Its the governments place to protect us and make sure this country doesn't turn to chaos. And if anything the government really should be more worried about the problems it has, rather than all of ours, that would be a lot more secure for our grandchildren.

Let me ask you and a few others a question.... Do you really want the government to just say **** the poor, let em all die, feed em fish heads, etc. etc.? If the government was to do that, what exactly do you think the ones who's eating "fish heads" gonna do? They're gonna be gunning for the ones who are not eating fish heads! PEOPLE WILL DO ANYTHING FOR SURVIVAL, it is human nature. You DO NOT wanna live in a society like that. Trust!


Oh, but then you gonna cry for the government to step in and protect you, right? No, lemme guess... you gonna shoot em all, right? *laughs*

Some of you need to really start thinking of the consequences of what would happen if the government actually listened to your cries. Again.....rofl...people and they're greed, I tell ya what...


People need to understand that with success comes responsibility.

 

[Vortex]

If I want to help out the less fortunate, I do it myself or at church.

I assume then your church pays for the health-care of non-parishioners who cannot afford it?

When I was working in bicycle shops while deciding exactly what I wanted to do with my life, I had no health-care provided to me by my employer. I purchased a 'major medical' plan that basically had like a $10,000.00 deductible for doctor's visit's, meds, etc and then like 70/30 after that 10k. But it was reduced to $500 and 100 if I lost a leg, got in a car crash/etc, basically anything accidental. Which was fine, I was reasonably healthy.

Now, let's fast forward to present day, I have a beautiful daughter, but she was born with strabismus [mis-alignment of the eyes] as well as needed ear-tubes for a chronic middle-ear fluid problem. I am so thankful my wife and I have wonderful health insurance and have paid very little out of pocket for the surgeries my daughter required. [She would have no depth perception and be unable to hear if she hadn't had them.]

If my wife and I decided to have a child earlier in life, there is no way we could have paid for the surgeries she required. Her basic health care we could have afforded, but the expenses involved in her diagnosis and surgeries, there is no way.

You really want to deny people this? And yea, of course there's going to be issues and people will abuse the system, there's plenty of democratic plans AND republican plans that have the same issues; but do you really want to ruin a child's life because you'll help people through your church? I don't think your church can afford it all. And how does your church decide WHO gets their help? This is what universal health care is really all about, everyone having access to the same basic level of care, regardless of financial status.

And granted, a very extreme example, but there's lots of them out there. Unexpected issues with children/etc are a HUGE burden on those who don't have access to good insurance, I'm so thankful I am fortunate enough to have it.

And I'm not talking about people who perhaps can't afford the additional cost associated children, but have them anyways. I'm talking about who people who lose jobs and end up without insurance when they had it before, unexpected health issues that aren't covered by some of the lower-end insurances/etc.

People hear 'socialized healthcare' and assume it's a bunch of people leeching from the government. And there will be some of that, for sure, but I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives when it comes to assisting those people that really need the help. [Especially children.] And I think it will be a challenge to implement properly, but I don't believe that means we shouldn't try.

Sorry it took so long to reply, I teach on Wednesday nights...

If you are going to quote me and use it in an arguement, please stick to the topic that was being discussed at the time of the quote. That comment had nothing to do with healthcare. That is a completely different issue than "spreading the wealth to the less fortunate". In answer to that part of the discussion, yes, my church provides help to non-members both in the US and outside of the US (mission work). If every church/religion/social group/special interest group did the same there would be less need for the government to do it. That is my whole point. It is for the community to provide help to the disadvantaged, not the government.

In answer to your topic change...

I am not opposed to medical care reforms. However, I would prefer to see pricing regulations, insurance oversight, and most importantly tort reform instead of socialized medicine. To me, socialized medicine should be reserved as a last resort. I'm not opposed to it, I just think that other reforms should be tried first. Ask people in Canada how satisfied they are with socialized medicine. I have been to Alberta 3 times now and I have yet to hear a single person happy with the system they have.

 

[Vortex]

I understand that it's not common knowledge to the average American, but trust when I tell you that NO ONE can borrow money in this reccession we're in now. Car dealerships are closing because banks are not lending for car loans, credit card companies are going under because of the same reason, and students are even having the hardest time ever getting student loans. Hell this may come as a surprise to you, but banks normally lend money to each other all the time, but they're not even lending to each other right now, cuz noo one knows which bank is gonna be the next bank to bite the dust!

I spend 8-10 hours a day, 4 days a week talking to underwriters and financial institutions, so trust me when I tell you that unless you have at least a 680-720 credit score with a lot of liquid assets, you ain't getting no loan.

Wanna guess what the average American's credit score is?

All I'm saying is it's not as easy for some people as you may believe.

You have had a lot of good points in this thread, but I think you failed here. The whole problem with our society is the fact that we think we deserve to get stuff. We think we are owed credit. If you can't pay cash for something, you don't need it. If it weren't for banks loaning to people who can't afford it, and people applying for loans that they had no business getting, you wouldn't have these problems.

Why should you buy a new car if you can't pay cash for it? Get a used one. Do you really need a loan to buy a big screen TV? Our values are pretty screwed up and a good recession, maybe even a depression, is the only thing that is going to cause people to rearrange their thinking.

Talk to your grandmother, or better yet, great grandmother. How many of them took out loans to buy stuff?

 

[Uvtha]

Name ONE social program this nation has enacted that worked properly. (Just one.)


And read my previous post if you think we need to tax our businesses more. What we need to do is eliminate WASTE spending... not just spend more on crap that 1. won't work properly and 2. will be sub-par just like any other social program.

Lets not even mention how taxing the corporations more will screw everyone because everything just became that much more expensive to buy as every business passes its costs onto its consumers or labor force.

GOOD JOB

Well I'd imagine your standard for "worked properly" would be important. Social security keeps many elderly people alive. My grandmother developed terrible Alzheimer's, and when it got to the point that our family could no longer take care of her because she needed round the clock nurse care, medicade(care? I don't remember) stepped in, and paid to have her taken care of in a nursing home. How about schools? Education is a social service, and is paid for with taxpayer money.

As for not taxing wealthy people, or wealthy businesses, what your saying is that the poor people get screwed either way you look at it? You think thats right? Anyway, businesses can only raise prices so much before people will stop paying for items they don't need, and businesses will go under.

 

[Draxous]

Sorry it took so long to reply, I teach on Wednesday nights...

If you are going to quote me and use it in an arguement, please stick to the topic that was being discussed at the time of the quote. That comment had nothing to do with healthcare. That is a completely different issue than "spreading the wealth to the less fortunate". In answer to that part of the discussion, yes, my church provides help to non-members both in the US and outside of the US (mission work). If every church/religion/social group/special interest group did the same there would be less need for the government to do it. That is my whole point. It is for the community to provide help to the disadvantaged, not the government.

In answer to your topic change...

I am not opposed to medical care reforms. However, I would prefer to see pricing regulations, insurance oversight, and most importantly tort reform instead of socialized medicine. To me, socialized medicine should be reserved as a last resort. I'm not opposed to it, I just think that other reforms should be tried first. Ask people in Canada how satisfied they are with socialized medicine. I have been to Alberta 3 times now and I have yet to hear a single person happy with the system they have.

Thank you.

 

[Hera - Siege]

Sorry it took so long to reply, I teach on Wednesday nights...

If you are going to quote me and use it in an arguement, please stick to the topic that was being discussed at the time of the quote. That comment had nothing to do with healthcare.

You're correct, my apologies, lotta reading for a single thread and I took the quote a bit too all encompassing.

I am not opposed to medical care reforms. However, I would prefer to see pricing regulations, insurance oversight, and most importantly tort reform instead of socialized medicine.

I agree completely, I'm not for 100% socialized health-care, but I do think that there needs to be some level that people [I'm mainly talking children here] can get the care that their current health-care does not cover. [ie: Necessary surgeries/etc where it is cost prohibitive to the parents.] I'm not talking free visits to the clinic for a cold, IMO those are too frequent by those people who actually have insurance. Although, making available procedures to better the lives of people who would not otherwise be able to afford them is something I strongly believe in.

 

[Nexus]

socialized medicine already exists here...you just have to be the right race to get it. and after seeing it in action...i'm not so sure i think its that good of idea anymore

I don't think that's a fair comment. This country basis more on your socioeconomic status than it does your race.

No he's right and he has a point. I don't know where you live but in some areas what he's describing is all to apparent. It's mainly a problem stemming from illegal immigration which I personally think is one of the issues that has a major tie into the economy issues. The area I lived in growing up is one of the fastest growing regions in the US. It's also expected to contain about 1% of all the illegal immigrants in the US, but under the laws in North Carolina Illegal Residents can easily obtain Drivers Licenses and other ID along with the police in some areas being forced to release those they find during routine traffic stops. Yes the problems are with the State and Counties for that but.... go to a local Social Services office to register your child for WIC or anything else....You literally have to ask for copies of the forms in ENGLISH because they don't use them that often and only print them at request now. I remember when my child was born going down to register her with them because she was born with a condition that required a very expensive surgery, and saw many of the same people I worked with there (I worked in a predominately Hispanic manned facility) filing for every possible benefit using false identification and getting it. That's what my TAX dollars was being used for to pay the way for Illegal Immigrants to have anchor babies to avoid deportation and to provide 80% of their basic needs.

 

[Trep]

Thinking has nothing to do with it, if you wanna know for sure then do some research and educate yourself, but if you just wanna sit around feeling sorry for yourself thinking someone is leeching off you then continue to do exactly what you're doing right now.

IHS, look it up genius

 

[Uvtha]

What?!!?

This IS arguing the fact that many people do not want to help others less fortunate so you want to MAKE them do so.

...

Your logic is very very skewed...

Thats how government works. Its not MY idea. Taxation is coercion plain and simple, and the result of such coercion is used to operate the country including helping people who needed it (in theory). If there were no people who needed help, this function of the government wouldn't be needed, but since people will take all they can get and screw anyone they can along the way the government has to step in and keep the society stable, by employing the threat of force/incarceration to extort money of out the citizens. This is what taxation is. Its not MY idea.

All that I am saying is that if you HAVE to take money from people, to take care of things that people cannot afford to take care of for themselves what makes more sense: Taking money from the people that you are endeavoring to assist, or taking money from people who can afford to (and still live very comfortable happy lives) have it taken from them?

 

[Draxous]

Yeah dude... just like it's racist if the white population wouldn't of voted for Obama just because he's black... but it's not racist that damn near every black man/woman who voted-voted for Obama.

It apparently only works one way.

You apparantly had too much cigar last night, this election was not about white and black, it was about young and old. This is a new generation and a new America, and they simply WILL NOT stand for the bull that has been tolerated in the past.

If you disagree with me, when Rev. Jackson ran for president he didn't even come close to be elected, even with the african american votes. But today is a new day and America has taken the step to change the way things have been for way too long. Good for America!

You obviously can't read or maybe it's that you can't carry a thought to completion because I have no freaking idea how you translated what I said into this mumbo jumbo.

I want to say though:

I think Obama is a great guy with what appear to be good intentions (we'll see.)

I also think that the platform he supports absolutely sucks for this country during times of economic recession.

But either way, this election was indeed about race. If white voters did what black voters did... it would of been considered racist.

And to top it off... for some reason, we're actually celebrating the fact that a record number of Americans with little to absolutely no real knowledge of politics, the candidates or their parties platforms went out and voted for a candidate.

Steller.



...

 

[Black magick]

Let me ask you and a few others a question.... Do you really want the government to just say **** the poor, let em all die, feed em fish heads, etc. etc.? If the government was to do that, what exactly do you think the ones who's eating "fish heads" gonna do? They're gonna be gunning for the ones who are not eating fish heads! PEOPLE WILL DO ANYTHING FOR SURVIVAL, it is human nature. You DO NOT wanna live in a society like that. Trust!


Oh, but then you gonna cry for the government to step in and protect you, right? No, lemme guess... you gonna shoot em all, right? *laughs*

Some of you need to really start thinking of the consequences of what would happen if the government actually listened to your cries. Again.....rofl...people and they're greed, I tell ya what...


People need to understand that with success comes responsibility.

I never said the government should say screw them, they shouldn't help those that don't deserve it however. A person perfectly capable of working, but doesn't is not someone who should be getting handouts. But believe me, I know quite a bit about human nature. Any a society that lives in turmoil that will fall, as will a society that wants the government to do too much for its people.

If anarchy broke out in the US I'm entirely prepared, I was also prepared for riots around where i live if some should break out. If a time of anarchy came yes, let them come and get gunned down I'm a sharpshooter with more than enough ammunition. :gun: You seem to take what I say and twist it. Many people actually do research and have educated opinions, just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they'd bring the end of society as we know it. Yes with success comes responsibility, but with that responsibility is to use your success the right way, not to give away what you have.

 

[Ole Cheapy]

You have had a lot of good points in this thread, but I think you failed here. The whole problem with our society is the fact that we think we deserve to get stuff. We think we are owed credit. If you can't pay cash for something, you don't need it. If it weren't for banks loaning to people who can't afford it, and people applying for loans that they had no business getting, you wouldn't have these problems.

Why should you buy a new car if you can't pay cash for it? Get a used one. Do you really need a loan to buy a big screen TV? Our values are pretty screwed up and a good recession, maybe even a depression, is the only thing that is going to cause people to rearrange their thinking.

Talk to your grandmother, or better yet, great grandmother. How many of them took out loans to buy stuff?

As much as it pains me to do so, i totally agree with this, let's face it, we live in a materialistic world, the more we see the more we want. This recession has definitely made many of us change our spending habbits, myself included. Hopefully we will all learn from our mistakes and be wiser when the economy gets better.

 

[Uvtha]

This is hilarious, seriously, where do you come up with this garbage? Why should someone who worked hard their whole life to get rich be forced pay for those who don't have the same initiative? This country is capitalistic, period. The opportunity is there, all you have to do is reach out and grab it. I have no sympathy for those who want everything given to them and fail because of it.
It is not the governments place to save every person whose struggling financially. Its not the governments place to step into the private affairs of the people. Its the governments place to protect us and make sure this country doesn't turn to chaos. And if anything the government really should be more worried about the problems it has, rather than all of ours, that would be a lot more secure for our grandchildren.

First of all the notion that the people who are not rich are not so because they lack initiative is I think a bit short sighted.
The question that I'm asking is: if the government feels that if must tax its citizens then which group of people does it make more sense to tax? People can CAN afford it or people who CAN'T?

Is it the governments place to save every person who is struggling financially? No. Would it be the wise government that would do all it could to prevent these struggling people from being in such a situation? Yes it would. Because what happens when millions of people are poor, when millions of people have no insurance, when millions of people are in a place of unrest? You get at best financial turmoil (check) and at worst you get increased crime, and violence (witch I would wager would soundly fit within the role you propose the government should fill, that of protecting you, and making sure the country doesn't turn to char chaos).

I know people want to think that terrible messes will just fix themselves and that if you in a bad situation its only because you are stupid and lazy, but its just not the case.

(p.s. apologize if im a little scattered, im at work, and posting when I get a moment)

 

[Draxous]

What?!!?

This IS arguing the fact that many people do not want to help others less fortunate so you want to MAKE them do so.

...

Your logic is very very skewed...

Thats how government works. Its not MY idea. Taxation is coercion plain and simple, and the result of such coercion is used to operate the country including helping people who needed it (in theory). If there were no people who needed help, this function of the government wouldn't be needed, but since people will take all they can get and screw anyone they can along the way the government has to step in and keep the society stable, by employing the threat of force/incarceration to extort money of out the citizens. This is what taxation is. Its not MY idea.

All that I am saying is that if you HAVE to take money from people, to take care of things that people cannot afford to take care of for themselves what makes more sense: Taking money from the people that you are endeavoring to assist, or taking money from people who can afford to (and still live very comfortable happy lives) have it taken from them?

No.

That is not all that you are saying.

I'm very tired and I don't know that I'll continue in this conversation moving forward so hopefully I will say everything that I wanted to concisely enough.

Without being condescending towards you, I want to iterate that your position is exactly what is wrong with this country and by in large the entire world.

There will always be haves and have nots, but by giving people the choice, the opportunity to be one or the other is the definition of freedom.

You have no accountability towards the purpose your ideals are trying to serve. Your post states that just because we have the money, we should spend it. You make no mention of what 'needy' is nor what actually qualifies as such. Your post assumes that people cannot afford things, but ignores the fundamentals of economics. In reality... people actually can afford those things, but choose not to. The sole purpose of government is to protect it's peoples freedom... yet not provide for them anything. It is a one way relationship... plain and simple.

The government holds no responsibility towards its people aside from ensuring each able-bodied person has the opportunity to pursue their own individual endeavors.

Re-read that.

It's the foundation of our constitution.

This notion that our government has a moral responsibility to provide for its people what they otherwise could have obtained, but chose not to is the beating heart of the problem.

The onus is on the people to take care of each other, provide to the needy, chase wealth... otherwise known as the American dream. Providing for oneself through his or her own actions. Your civic duty is only to ensure that your brothers and sisters also have that same opportunity...

The whole problem is this line of thinking that the government can solve the problems the people... between and amongst themselves ignore. It's totally ludicrous and it's eating at this country from the inside out.

With all of this said (and much more that could have been) I will end this post with some quotes:

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. -- Winston Churchill, 1948

Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom; socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude. -- Alexis de Tocqueville, Discours pronounce a l'assemblee constituante le 12 septembre 1848 sur la question du droit at travail

How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. -- Ronald Reagan

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. -- Winston Churchill

Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good. -- Ayn Rand

God Bless and good night.

 

[Draxous]

You have had a lot of good points in this thread, but I think you failed here. The whole problem with our society is the fact that we think we deserve to get stuff. We think we are owed credit. If you can't pay cash for something, you don't need it. If it weren't for banks loaning to people who can't afford it, and people applying for loans that they had no business getting, you wouldn't have these problems.

You get it.

And it wasn't until our government (Thanks Clinton) pushed our financial institutions into dealing with sub-prime lending so those who 'couldn't afford housing' could... this whole housing bubble wouldn't of happened.

Just another example of how the government should just stay out of our lives.

 

[Uvtha]

There will always be haves and have nots, but by giving people the choice, the opportunity to be one or the other is the definition of freedom.

Even though you may not continue with the conversation ill respond anyway. I think you misunderstand me. I understand that there will be haves and have nots(at least until we get to a star-trek-esq level of a currency-less race where basic needs are instantly and easily met, which is probably a thousand years away if we make it) all I am saying is that in our current system of a democratic republic there are needs, needs it is the government's aim to allay and if the money must come from SOMEWHERE it should come from those who HAVE it not those who DON'T.

Just like in UO, we all know that its better to try to put less burden on the have nots to provide more equity, harmony.

You have no accountability towards the purpose your ideals are trying to serve. Your post states that just because we have the money, we should spend it. You make no mention of what 'needy' is nor what actually qualifies as such. Your post assumes that people cannot afford things, but ignores the fundamentals of economics. In reality... people actually can afford those things, but choose not to. The sole purpose of government is to protect it's peoples freedom... yet not provide for them anything. It is a one way relationship... plain and simple.

I think you underestimate poverty. Something that is very real in this nation. And the sole purpose of the government is to do what is asked of it, and what we want it to do.

As for like what needy is, I don't have some number for you. And to me its not just about helping the guy who needs a heart transplant but has no insurance and will therefor die, or the mom who chose NOT to have an abortion, and is barely scraping by because of that choice, or any of the thousands of bad situations that exist in this country... its trying to elevate ourselves as a nation by doing what we can to help everyone do a little better. Its my contention that things like affording health care and whatnot should not be what we work FOR. We should toil to better ourselves. Many people are in situation where their toil is not to better themselves but to keep themselves from drowning. And whats the point of a life like that? I don't see it.

The government holds no responsibility towards its people aside from ensuring each able-bodied person has the opportunity to pursue their own individual endeavors.

Re-read that.

It's the foundation of our constitution.

I'll have to disagree. The best way I would do so would be to display the preamble of the united states constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Re-read that.

More perfect union. Establish justice. Insure domestic tranquility. Promote the general --welfare--.

THAT is the foundation of this country. Or that was the plan anyway, it clearly is not the current foundation. Warren Buffet, the richest man on the earth, paying less taxes than his secretary: No justice. The parents that have to work 70 hour work weeks to feed and clothe their children (not making that one up. Ive personally know people who have to work this much to keep above water): No domestic tranquility. 45 million hard working Americans (15%) uninsured, who knows how many more under woefully inadequate plans: No general welfare.

This notion that our government has a moral responsibility to provide for its people what they otherwise could have obtained, but chose not to is the beating heart of the problem.

The government has no morals. The government is a system by witch we the people display our united morality. Do we HAVE to help people in a bad spot? Nope. Should we WANT to help them, especially when it barly hurts us? My answer is yes. That's MY answer, those are MY morals. Not good bad or otherwise, just mine. My desire would be to use the system we established as noted by our founding fathers to: "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" for the less fortunate people in this country, and by doing so in turn elevating ourselves by building a smarter, safer, more healthy nation, that may grow even more prosperous that it may share its prosperity with the world.

The onus is on the people to take care of each other, provide to the needy, chase wealth... otherwise known as the American dream. Providing for oneself through his or her own actions. Your civic duty is only to ensure that your brothers and sisters also have that same opportunity...

The onus IS on the people to take care of each, provide for the needy and to spread the wealth around. Problem is...as of today people don't do it.

The whole problem is this line of thinking that the government can solve the problems the people... between and amongst themselves ignore. It's totally ludicrous and it's eating at this country from the inside out.

I don't believe the government can SOLVE these problems. What it CAN do it provide a more adequate setting for a population that is PREPARED to solve these problems. Smarter, healthier, people with more money to spend will help solve these problems, because when you have time to think, and have health to act, then that's when people become involved. You cant become involved in anything when you have to work 3 jobs.

With all of this said (and much more that could have been) I will end this post with some quotes:

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. -- Winston Churchill, 1948

Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom; socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude. -- Alexis de Tocqueville, Discours pronounce a l'assemblee constituante le 12 septembre 1848 sur la question du droit at travail

How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. -- Ronald Reagan

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. -- Winston Churchill

Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good. -- Ayn Rand

Its a funny thing. Socialism/collectivsm isn't what is being advocated here, at least not by me.

"Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole."

What is being advocated is a use of money, money already being collected, for things that would benefit people. That and shifting the origin of that money from the poor/middle class to the rich. This is not socialism. Why everyone thinks it IS is beyond me.
The ONLY difference between what I advocate and what is currently going on in our government is scale (we already have government health care, but only for the elderly and the very very poor, etc) and source of funds (people who can afford it, AND still remain affluent, rather than people who need every penny) it's not a socialist system.

 

[Uvtha]

You have had a lot of good points in this thread, but I think you failed here. The whole problem with our society is the fact that we think we deserve to get stuff. We think we are owed credit. If you can't pay cash for something, you don't need it. If it weren't for banks loaning to people who can't afford it, and people applying for loans that they had no business getting, you wouldn't have these problems.

Why should you buy a new car if you can't pay cash for it? Get a used one. Do you really need a loan to buy a big screen TV? Our values are pretty screwed up and a good recession, maybe even a depression, is the only thing that is going to cause people to rearrange their thinking.

I think the real problem is that people trivialize the problems that the poor face, and think they equate to wanting a new car of some fancy Adidas. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of idiots who go out and get credit cards and buy things they don't need and cant afford, but these are not the people who need help. That aside, if you don't think that the financial institutions that prey on the uneducated middle class of this nation don't deserve a hefty helpin' of blame, you're crazy.

I wonder how many people on this board have ever worked in a fast food restaurant, or a retail chain, or as waitstaff or a cook in a Perkins. This is where -to use a popular election phrase- "real people" work. These jobs are terrible, and are very hard to live on.
And I don't suggest that you give these hard working people handouts, but something like having guaranteed health care, and having the tax burden shifted to those who make 10 times more money than these people... it would do SO much to improve their lives... so much.

"Well go out and get another job lazy ass!" No. These jobs HAVE to be staffed. They will always need to be staffed. And people don't work these jobs because they are lazy, they work them because their options are very limited. Not every city (and indeed probably no city on earth) has enough good jobs for all the people living in it, even if they each held a phd from Harvard.
The facts are that there ARE people who MUST work these jobs. Some can get out, some can get education and get a better job, but people have to realize MOST people CAN NOT. This kind of life is one of quiet, or heck, even noisy desperation. These people need help. And there are millions, upon millions of them.

 

[Vortex]

I think the real problem is that people trivialize the problems that the poor face, and think they equate to wanting a new car of some fancy Adidas. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of idiots who go out and get credit cards and buy things they don't need and cant afford, but these are not the people who need help. That aside, if you don't think that the financial institutions that prey on the uneducated middle class of this nation don't deserve a hefty helpin' of blame, you're crazy.

I wonder how many people on this board have ever worked in a fast food restaurant, or a retail chain, or as waitstaff or a cook in a Perkins. This is where -to use a popular election phrase- "real people" work. These jobs are terrible, and are very hard to live on.
And I don't suggest that you give these hard working people handouts, but something like having guaranteed health care, and having the tax burden shifted to those who make 10 times more money than these people... it would do SO much to improve their lives... so much.

"Well go out and get another job lazy ass!" No. These jobs HAVE to be staffed. They will always need to be staffed. And people don't work these jobs because they are lazy, they work them because their options are very limited. Not every city (and indeed probably no city on earth) has enough good jobs for all the people living in it, even if they each held a phd from Harvard.
The facts are that there ARE people who MUST work these jobs. Some can get out, some can get education and get a better job, but people have to realize MOST people CAN NOT. This kind of life is one of quiet, or heck, even noisy desperation. These people need help. And there are millions, upon millions of them.

I did lay some of the blame on the banks, I even said that in my post. I have worked restaurants, bartending, retail sales and many blue collar jobs in the past.

I would be more inclined to help those people that work (instead of the ones who are able and don't) but make low wages. But it begins with educating them on spending practices.

I can't count how many times I have gone into an apartment and the people have no furniture, a mattress on the floor with not box springs or bed frame. But they got a big screen TV!

Or they live in a rundown slum apartment but they drive a brand new Mustang.

There has to be a priority shift in America before we can truly help anyone. That is why the market is doing what it is. As a people we have gotten out of control.

My suggestion would be Dave Ramsey as President

 

[Ole Cheapy]

just like it's racist if the white population wouldn't of voted for Obama just because he's black... but it's not racist that damn near every black man/woman who voted-voted for Obama.

It apparently only works one way.

Ok let me try this another way, a way that down to your level of understanding since you didn't get it in my last post. (this won't be easy but here goes).........


First let me ask you a question.. Would you call a woman who supports women's lib prejudice against men? Surely not even you are that shallow. So that's the same thing as saying african americans who support other african americans, racist or prejudice. Can you comprehend that? Hope this helps.

 

[Shh!]

I hear ya! The way things are now is the way it should be the poor people pay the bills and the rich people get the bonuses!

The LAST thing this country needs is more "socialist handout" programs like healthcare and education. These things are useless. All they do is make poor people smarter (so they might begin to complain about how screwed they are) and make the live longer (and as such complain for a longer time).

Terrible prospects.

Healthcare is not a universal right. Someone has to pay for it and I am guessing it won't be you and at the rate taxes are going up, it won't be anyone before long.

Public education is woeful at best. I know, we haven't thrown nearly enough money at it, make schools not bombs, *insert other stupid socialist rhetoric here*

When people like you stop trying to soak the rich to pay for your stupid socialist programs, this country will return to prominence. Until then, we're doomed in a never ending spiral of higher taxes and a continuing exodus of companies/individuals with the money needed to run this country.

 

[Shh!]

You know, social security was meant to be a "safety net" for people that needed it. Now, it's bankrupting the nation. Nuh uh. No more handouts.

That is by far in the top 5 most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Considering nearly everything you say makes my top 5, that hardly worries me. But what part is untrue? Please enlighten me.

 

[Shh!]

Everything is not black and white, there is a gray area out there and believe it or not insurance companies are the dirtiest of the dirty! So no, everyone who don't have insurance didnt just sit on their butts and do nothing or not take neccesary measures, some got a good ole sticking in the behind area.

So turn it over to the pure-as-the-driven-snow government to handle. Do you take your act on the road because you KILL on these forums.

 

[Shh!]

This would be a valid analogy if in the real world everyone started off on a 100% equal footing, and had all avenues instantly available and undeniable to them, there were an endless amount of top end professions, no one ever got sick, or hurt, or hungry or cold, or pregnant, or on and on. The only factor to success in UO is time invested. In real life its completely different.

"Life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness." That's all you get.