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PvP Tamers are Overpowered

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
As express the needed change is on siege only. The production shard people who want change are against tamers or really are horrible pvp players. Only siege is needed a change thats it because of obvious reasons. The siege nerf crowd is getting mixed up in the production shard. I hope dev realize this hell we all can realize this make changes to siege but leave the production shards alone. Dont cave in to the revenge of the other classes. Only siege have real grievence. No production fel players has a case against easy to kill GD in the production shards unless they decide gm armor and a gm katana is enough for them to kill a gd which it aint and no sane production pvp will run around in that armor expecting to win.
I presume you have a tamer, so are you basically saying that no PvP tamer can survive without a GD in its current state?

How did tamer PvPers manage to kill players before the GD came out? Other pets perhaps?

And did all PvP tamers vanish because the rune beetle was toned down?

Once you've answered the above honestly, maybe you might see where some of us are coming from. And realise that some of us are tamers ourselves, and thus not the enemy. Why would I as a Fel resident want to make my template of choice useless?

Then please try to imagine that the devs could change the GD while still keeping it useable, as they did the runey. And stop panicing. Though the devs themselves have said they didn't intend for it to be used for PvP. So y'know, maybe if GDs aren't intended for PvP, changing them so they won't work in PvP is just them fixing their own mistakes. Not getting revenge.

Wenchy
 

SoulWeaver

King of The Bearded Ladies
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
There's so many angles to this discussion so I'll just throw something out there. I really think tamer should be required to have Vet skill. This could be implemented by having pet Stat/Skill decay over time (as the pet is neglected health care by it's owner)

Also, I think as time passes pets should eventually become weak and die. Maybe after 1 RL week the pet starts to go. Also I think to stable the more powerful pets such as the overpowered Greater Dragon it should cost at least 1 Mil maybe 5 Mil per week to stable it.
i think you are right and you should come play siege perilous because you'll enjoy it that much more!
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
I presume you have a tamer, so are you basically saying that no PvP tamer can survive without a GD in its current state?

How did tamer PvPers manage to kill players before the GD came out? Other pets perhaps?

And did all PvP tamers vanish because the rune beetle was toned down?

Once you've answered the above honestly, maybe you might see where some of us are coming from. And realise that some of us are tamers ourselves, and thus not the enemy. Why would I as a Fel resident want to make my template of choice useless?

Then please try to imagine that the devs could change the GD while still keeping it useable, as they did the runey. And stop panicing. Though the devs themselves have said they didn't intend for it to be used for PvP. So y'know, maybe if GDs aren't intended for PvP, changing them so they won't work in PvP is just them fixing their own mistakes. Not getting revenge.

Wenchy
I don't have a pvp tamer just a pvm tamer. Every time I come across a PVP tamer I have no trouble defeating it. The smarter fighters give me a little hassle but I adjust my tactics to theres. If for some reason they are super experts i bring my treasure hunter into the fight with discord they last very little time after that. Once I bring that health down from the dragon fire breath is nothing especialy that most pvp tamers don't have vet in there template and have to rely on magery to heal which makes them have to reveal themselfs and get close enough to help. But the key is to actualy stay close to the tamer so when that tamer drops it's guard it's over. Ofcourse different tactics for different people but I truly have no trouble with them. Maybe because am used to fighting full fledge untamed GD multiple at a time with a variety of templates that a gd and a player that has to sacrafice at least 220 of there skills for it making the tamer weaker than a full template of another player. I also use every resources to my advantage from trinsic petals to multiple potions. So I just don't see the overpower in there if anything they can turn it around and say pvp bards can decimate tamers using there overpowered instuments that render the tamers useless. It goes both ways. If Im in a bind i bring the tamers natural weapon against him the bard but usualy my other templates are enough to handle the situation.
I do have trouble with necro mages and archers thats why i consider myself a mediocre pvp player.
 
M

mr.blackmage

Guest
I don't really understand UOKaiser. If I decided to use a tamer, and you tried to kill my pet, I would slaughter you with mage spells. I don't know what template your treasure hunter is, but if I were a tamer/mage, I would not be any weaker dps wise than a pure mage (disregarding 10% scribe, negligible against a treasure hunter). Any time spent attacking my pet is free time for me to combo on you. You are acting like it's all kill, and no other action from the player. You know that isn't how it is. And that's if I was a mage/tamer, probably the weaker of most of the tamer templates.

Don't talk about experience killing monsters giving you the edge vs tamers. Most pvpers have slaughted 20x the number of monsters that the average pvmer has, and surviving dumps against 6+ players is much harder than surviving against 3 wild GD's, unless of course they insta kill you, which is what this thread is about.
 

Alvinho

Great Lakes Forever!
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
There is only so many pets a tamer can control. A damage cap would be a good idea. If you are going to use multiple pets which can actually his that cap you would have to sacrifice your mount. The main complaint against tamers are the greater dragons. A damage cap would be a solution to the dragons attack damage which everyone complains about.
I would ask the Dev's to implement the VET skill be a factor in controlling pets, that take the skill of 90 or above to tame
 

HD2300

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I say leave things as they are except for Siege.

If you want more people in Fel you need provide templates that allow newer players to have a bit of advantage. Start nerfing the crap out of these templates and you will find that when these people are slaughtered, they wont go to Fel anymore.
 
A

Azmira Zalof

Guest
You're serious?

Problem with that logic: not everyone with a GD has no idea to pvp. The ones that can take 2-3 vs. them are the ones that actually know what they're doing.
 
W

Warrior of Time

Guest
Sometimes it is better to look at things from the inside rather than out.
Basically, what the tamers know that you don't.

If a pet loses target sometimes it must be redirected. That can lose time if there is one person or more. A pet just like all monsters are single target. They focus one the one told to kill. The tamer is now a prime Target by any one near by that wants him.As it stands if a pet is told to kill it will fight that target until it is dead. Why not a attack lag. It loses target on you the tamer is a prime target. That may be modified. Not just Run off screen to try and make it lose target. Most tamers have no other skills to fight with. A pure PVPer has a large edge there. That 200 points becomes a liability fast.

There is also the idea that if a person can't get away that easy. The same should be apply to the pet in PVP only. Lets face it this is Felucca. People do lose contact. Both in PVP and PVM. Doing it on purpose can leave the pet, or the tamer an easy kill. It is like being able to hit and run into a house.

We all know that kill the tamer the pet is easy. A PVP tamer with no vet has little chance against mass damage being done to the pet. I for one know that a mage can't keep a pet alive with no vet. But one can do a lot damage to one.

UO/SA is coming and along with that is the imbuing, and make you own artifacts. The Gargoyle race will come with it. That race will be PVP template for the most part. We may want to see what is to come before we complain too loud. You could be getting nerfed before it comes out and not know it.

Sometimes it is easier and better to buff up than drop. Look at faster cast and recovery things. Was a time that was the main outcry, and still is a sore spot. Buffing up the rest of the templates are still possible.

For the most part that dragon is slow. Gargoyle flight speed is the same as mounted speed. What will we do use a broken wing for dismount.

Being said, It may be better to use the weakness of a template not the strong points.

People in PVP are good at making a fighting template. If not no one would complain.

As for a bard not being able to peace one is wrong. First the bard is target peace not area is why. I don't want to do it to my friends pet too. I have had mine stop for a long time in Ilsh by someone just working on skills around me. Long enough for me to get killed before it could help me. He may not do it well but even at lower skills if he gets it together it works on the pet. I have a 129 music, 120peace char the I rpomist I can stop a untamed GD. No slayer insterment. At least till some one REALLY ticks it off. The pet though is easire yet.

As far as the tamer logging out to save the pet. Whatever happened to the you can't escape that east everyone must put up with.

Also there are very few people that don't know that there is two reasons you can't just jump on a pet and ride off. There is a mounting timer that was put into the game a Long time ago. I have yet to be able to mount a pet locked in combat.

The sword cuts both ways. Some are just better at using it though. There need not be a battle cry Kill the use. I for one think I am better than that way of thinking.
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I say leave things as they are except for Siege.

If you want more people in Fel you need provide templates that allow newer players to have a bit of advantage. Start nerfing the crap out of these templates and you will find that when these people are slaughtered, they wont go to Fel anymore.
I truly am not a good PvPer. I could be, but I don't do it regularly to have any kind of edge over any PvMer fresh from Tram. Yet all my tamers, with their PvM templates are able to defend themselves easily with pets. In fact, I know how slow my GDs move, and as a non ninja it would be suicide if I DID use a GD with one of them. Toning down, or even removing the GD entirely would not stop the PvM tamer from being able to hold their own. Again, remember that we had the ability to defend ourselves easily before GDs arrived. I think some folks are getting hooked on GD power and not thinking back to how they coped before. Tamers have some great pets, if they would just look in the stables sometimes!

Wenchy
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Also there are very few people that don't know that there is two reasons you can't just jump on a pet and ride off. There is a mounting timer that was put into the game a Long time ago. I have yet to be able to mount a pet locked in combat.
There's no timer. And put "all stop" "all follow me" in the same macro, and you can mount your pet anytime. All the PvPers knows, and the ones using dreads in order to PvP knows it exceptionally well. As soon as the all stop command is issued, the pet will drop out of combat "instantly" this means you can mount it INSTANTLY no matter how "in combat" you are or it is.
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
There's no timer. And put "all stop" "all follow me" in the same macro, and you can mount your pet anytime. All the PvPers knows, and the ones using dreads in order to PvP knows it exceptionally well. As soon as the all stop command is issued, the pet will drop out of combat "instantly" this means you can mount it INSTANTLY no matter how "in combat" you are or it is.
Not quite true if a) pet is poisoned or b) in case of hiyru

Pet AI isn't working like it was claimed to be in the last fix to it.
 
R

RichDC

Guest
Not quite true if a) pet is poisoned or b) in case of hiyru

Pet AI isn't working like it was claimed to be in the last fix to it.
Or, If youve hit a mount with the riding swipe dismount...

As most the PvP tamers dont have a way to heal said pet quickly they can be dismounted for a LONG ASS time!!!
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Not quite true if a) pet is poisoned or b) in case of hiyru

Pet AI isn't working like it was claimed to be in the last fix to it.
And it doesnt really matter because a) Dreadmare is pet in question here (GD/Mare thread) and it auto arch cure and second it is poisoned. b) My lesser works just fine and my real hiryu also works just fine, maybe its just for me.

Did you run out of stuff to say? I responded to the dudes false "remount timer" because there's none, as he stated that after dismount all kill you cannot remount it period. Pet being poisoned isnt a timer... and if you know how to use a pet it will never get "stuck" in combat like you suggested. In the case of Dreadmare, unless yours had zero magery(impossible unless your mare died 1000+ times), mine with straight GMs instantly cast arch cure upon poisoned.

Again, I am not biased. I speak as a legendary tamer myself (120real taming/lore you will be able to see my title), and you can feel free to PM me if you dont think I have a tamer, I will meet you in game and show you how to play a tamer right so you dont get caught by "dismount timer" that didnt exist in the first place. Of course if you are trying to mount a GD then I really cant help you.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Or, If youve hit a mount with the riding swipe dismount...

As most the PvP tamers dont have a way to heal said pet quickly they can be dismounted for a LONG ASS time!!!
Its really not like that in PvP world. Takes 2 second for a vetting tamer to heal it up with aids, 0.75sec for a 4/6 chiv dexer tamer to close wound it, takes 1.25 second max for a mage tamer to heal it with a gheal. None of them takes longer than 5 seconds which is the time it takes for remount timer to wear out. Also most dexer/archer tamer you see are running chiv and almost all mage tamer has magery (duh) again a experienced player can get back on their mount anytime unless a) the pet is killed within 5 second b)player got killed within 5 second.
 

Dragkiris

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Its really not like that in PvP world. Takes 2 second for a vetting tamer to heal it up with aids, 0.75sec for a 4/6 chiv dexer tamer to close wound it, takes 1.25 second max for a mage tamer to heal it with a gheal. None of them takes longer than 5 seconds which is the time it takes for remount timer to wear out. Also most dexer/archer tamer you see are running chiv and almost all mage tamer has magery (duh) again a experienced player can get back on their mount anytime unless a) the pet is killed within 5 second b)player got killed within 5 second.
Isnt dismounting a tamer kind of worthless? I mean dont they usually dismount themselves anyway to put there pet on you.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Isnt dismounting a tamer kind of worthless? I mean dont they usually dismount themselves anyway to put there pet on you.
Exactly why I dont understand why that dude put this in as one of the reason saying tamers are ok they have the remount timer (even tho it's not there). But yea, when we do gank a tamer on dread we have to kill him within 5 second before he can remount, and poison the dread is pure waste of time/mana/energy as it instant arch cure(and the arch cure helps ALL friendly around it) so you really dont want to poison it. (e.g. there's a tamer all killing with horse with a dexer and a mage around him) and your side sent in dexers/ninjas and got them lethal poisoned and now if anyone go on and poison that dread... *blink* everyone is cured cept for you and your friends.

It's ok for the trammie tamer who has trouble defending himself 1v1 in PvP (most of them are raving how everything is balanced nice and neat). The true problem lies in the ones who have zero trouble 1v3+ w/ dread or GD and KNOWS that they can assist their pet in "instant killing people" and not just all kill and stand there afk and die then come here and say "I got killed so easily so it's ok for tamers to instant kill anyone instantly!!! its balanced"
 
W

woden

Guest
Many "stakeholders," of which I'm one, are going to argue your base premise emotionally. I won't, in fact, "tamers are overpowered" is about as intellectually undebatable as anything could possibly be, once you shelve the emotions of it all. It creeps into everything dev does, note that almost every new aspect of the game must include an "anti-pet" mechanism simply to provide challenge. Beyond your base premise however, I think your recommendations go overboard:



Vet is a great skill, depending on tasks to be performed. 2 of my 3 tamers use it, it's indespensible to how they're played. As a requirement however, the "logic" doesn't flow for me. "Herding," one of the never used skills, might fit as an additional requirement for obeying commands and/ or loyalty checks. As templates get rather crowded as is, and with new skills on the way, were herding to be included in checks, the weight/influence/ requirement should remain reasonably low. It becomes a balancing act for dev, as it also needs to have significance for higher level level creatures. Taming difficulty could probably be lowered overall, going back to an original but since voided pledge that powerscrolls would never be required for play, and dampening much of the argument reference item based skill modifiers. The trouble is, as your thread title implies, that a couple hundred poinits of skill, coupled with a cu or greater dragon are disproportionally strong relative to skill point investment.

I couldn't disagree more with your decay proposal, it shows taming isn't "your thing." Try taming a blaze cu, the spawn chance of which are 1 in over 23,000. At 5 minutes time invested per tame, accounting for other spawn and paragons in the spawn region, and have it go "poof." After a design requirement of 2000 man hours - oh no. Seriously, no way. Increasing the gold investment to stable also assumes that everyone plays 24/7, and plays to attain gold, neither of which is true for the majority of players.

So, I agree with your premise, just not your "solution." :)

Edit: Before it becomes an issue, let me cover some "history" regarding my thoughts on herding, as I've voiced them before over the years here and on other boards. As above, I do think it should play a role in obeying and possibly loyalty checks, scaled based on creature level. I also hate "nerfs," and am strongly opposed to anything infringing on anyone's gaming entertainment/ enjoyment. As inherently such a change does "take away," I feel it equally important it "give something back." I've recommended before that for every 10 points of skill, you add an additional stable slot. At one point I also recommended that for every 20 points, it add a "follower slot." As to the latter, my original recommendation would need a revision, as 2 greater dragons would be a tad too powerful. 1 added follower per 25 would negate scroll effects, probably not a good thing, and 1 slot per 30 points would cause a scroll requirement for 2 cus, the scroll requirement probably also not a good thing.
I think these ideas for herding are excellent. (I'm also fairly certain I suggested something very similar a few years back. =P) I would even be happy for additional stable slots and an extra single control slot at gm herding (for a total of 6 control slots). That would be worth the points in my opinion. ;)

I've also pvp'd as a mage/tamer for many years before there were greater dragons. I haven't used a greater dragon in pvp but I can tell you that unless they are super fast (which I know they're not) then there is no real advantage unless the tamer is fighting noobs. My typical strategy was to avoid using pets until I was put into a losing situation. Pets were decoys and insurance policies for survival. Good pvp tamers should not rely upon their pets for kills or they will inevitably suffer many deaths. Good non tamer pvpers should be able to easily avoid pets unless they are "really" surprised. If you're complaining about pets then you need to work on your pvp skills and/or learn how to move around more quickly.

I'm not a real authority on the topic anymore because I haven't pvp'd in a long while because it became boring and unrewarding. Too many griefers, whiners, exploiters, and poor sportsmanship to boot. All rewards attainable via pvp are much more easily (and happily) attained with other means. ;) Maybe if they started punishing reds properly again and bringing back the bounty system we could start discussing tamer power... (*rolls eyes*)

Finally, I find it very amusing how new many of the people commenting and complaining in this thread are. Most of the people with so much "sagely" advice have been playing for less than a year but have so many posts; they're soooo vocal! I find it extremely hard to believe that such new players could have mastered all of the intricacies of this game in such a short amount of time. Perhaps they should consider playing more and complaining less. ;)
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Some of us are far older than our usernames suggest, Woden. Stratics went pop a while ago and myself and others couldn't get our old accounts merged with new ones. Stratics account ages aren't a reliable indicator of experience in UO. In all honesty, they never were.

Wenchy
 

WildWobble

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I don't disagree with the fire breath doing 65 damage in PvP... but Archers can do that also. Not breath fire, but that much damage.

Talisman of the Fey Reptalon Form my stelth archer can breath fire
;) hehe

And oh yeah killing dragons / horses is not that hard. 1v1 maybe a bit unbalanced but when its faction warfare / guild warfare bring some confusion blast potions and a bard them tamers become useless fast when they have to run off to rez the pet cuz we all choped it to tiny little bits.

kill the tamer ignore the pet and if you know what your doing the pet will not be nipping at your heals.

though i do agree capping dmg on pets is a good plan for pvp might also be nice when you make that bone headed move All Kill target self.. more surviveable.
 
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