• Hail Guest!
    We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
  • Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
  • Hail Guest!,
    Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
  • Hail Guest!
    Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!

Insane Vendor Fees Are Still Killing The Shards

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I value you your input, just not your presentation.

It seems like a minor request to have you hit enter once in a while.

But we are creatures of habit aren't we?
Well since 600 people read my FB post regularly and throw me their business weekly and love my writing style........ Can't see changing it to make someone on a game board like it. You read it, you understood it, and if I changed it here it might slip into my backward hillbilly FB image and detract from the appreciation my customer base has for me which = $$$ to keep playing UO :)
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
Well since 600 people read my FB post regularly and throw me their business weekly and love my writing style........ Can't see changing it to make someone on a game board like it. You read it, you understood it, and if I changed it here it might slip into my backward hillbilly FB image and detract from the appreciation my customer base has for me which = $$$ to keep playing UO :)
What, may I ask, is your business on Facebook?

Feel free to decline to answer or respond in PM.

Just curious is all.
 

sativa green

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Well since 600 people read my FB post regularly and throw me their business weekly and love my writing style........ Can't see changing it to make someone on a game board like it. You read it, you understood it, and if I changed it here it might slip into my backward hillbilly FB image and detract from the appreciation my customer base has for me which = $$$ to keep playing UO :)
Imagine how much money you'd be making if you hit enter more?
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Imagine how much money you'd be making if you hit enter more?
LOL I promise I earn more than you in investment income alone :) It is not how much money you make farming, it is how much money you can afford to spend being a farmer ;)
 

Basara

UO Forum Moderator
Moderator
Professional
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
My experience on a always-low-population shard is that at some point higher-price items just disappeared, coinciding with a radical increase of traffic to and from Atlantic.

If those of us with something significant of value to sell try to sell it at what we consider to be a fair local value that is less than Atlantic value, more often than not it will disappear from the vendors coinciding with the cross-sharders. Example: POF, which is impossible for the non-BOD-fillers to get, that sells on Atlantic for what locals (as LA was once a crafter-heavy shard) consider to be 3-5 times its real value. I price it for half the Atlantic price (which is about twice the local perceived value), and it stays on the vendor until minutes after the EM event for the week. Every Time.

It's not that the vendor prices are too high, as much as many small shards' sales have been forced into private direct sales, where people ask if someone has "X" for sales and makes an offer, because gold is only as good as your ability to spend it, and the stuff most of us wants to spend gold on gets transferred to Atlantic, if it is put on a vendor and sold to a cross-sharder before we can buy it ourselves, then someone on Atlantic can spend as much as 10 times that price on it.

There's not as much a right-or-wrong issue, but more of a "Picker" issue that transfer tokens made worse. Once the high-end items ran out because transfers were more common, the pickers still needed to maintain their lifestyle, and since they were only getting 1 event drop per month, per shard, roughly, had 100+ spaces in their backpack, and needing to make the trip "worth it", started "raiding" the lightweight mid-range stuff that was normally sold within the shard, such as PS, deeded resources, the few artifacts still in demand, etc. And, in doing so, inadvertently broke the other shards' economies.
 

sativa green

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
LOL I promise I earn more than you in investment income alone :) It is not how much money you make farming, it is how much money you can afford to spend being a farmer ;)
Looking at your facebook page, I can ensure you, you aren't making anywhere near my income level but HOKAY. Message me when you want to make real money.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Looking at your facebook page, I can ensure you, you aren't making anywhere near my income level but HOKAY. Message me when you want to make real money.
LOL you are looking at what I love to do and what, I choose to do as my career. As it should be :)

When your average overall annual income gets up around 1.5 mil get back with me.
 

Merlin

The Enchanter
Moderator
Professional
Governor
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
EA corporate has an issue with Steam. It competes with their Origin platform. Since Origin is sooooo much better than Steam well there ya go. Doesn't matter that UO would do 10 times better on Steam, it would be an insult to EA's Origin platform. Wonder how that day went at Broadsword when they did all the work to get UO ready for Steam to have EA tell them they aren't allowed to do that? Can't support the competition. Lovely.... if your saying UO will be released to Steam, let's say in the next year, I'll take your 10 mill :)
I'm not sure the subscription model UO uses is compatible with Steam. EA sure doesn't seem to have any issue putting up bigger name titles like 'The Sims' and their 20+ expansions on Steam. EA is making money off Steam where they can.
 

Fridgster

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I think this being blown way out of reality.

If it's even 1% of the item fee a day which publish 80 doesn't even hint towards increasing vendor fees,
That's 10k a day.

So you have 100 days to break even.

I mean if it's the small things like repair deeds, they shouldn't have a vendor fee, or anything under like 10k. I could see that argument.

But if you're selling 100m items chances are you can handle the fees.

And if I recall Lucky is a rares collector, so I have troubles buying into the argument.
Problem is on lesser populated shards that item could sit a month or so. Those fees add up and not all of us are rares traders therefore it effects the casual player even more. Also keep in mind that the numbers you listed are for 1 item. How many vendors do you visit with one item?
 

Troll The T Hunter

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
How on earth did these shard shields ever even make it out of the first internal meeting?

Intern:
Hey boss I have this great idea, how about we let people travel from shard to shard with items?

Boss:
Really? So you want people flooding to other shards EM events so they can get an Leet item just to sell on their shard?You want people taking content that belongs on one shard to another shard? You want people going to other shards and ruining their economy? Can we make it even easier for dupers?

Anyways back to the topic, I would love to see a percentage of the sale of an item as the fee instead of the way it is now. Unfortunately there's no way they can do that people would just use vendors as storage. There's a reason we don't have unlimited storage. Maybe the fee should be charged when you put an item on the vendor. The problem with this is you cant really change your mind, the second you put it on the vendor it's a done deal.
 

sativa green

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
LOL you are looking at what I love to do and what, I choose to do as my career. As it should be :)

When your average overall annual income gets up around 1.5 mil get back with me.
Shouldn't have any problem paying for that heart surgery then ;]
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
We need gold sinks in this game and vendor costs help keep prices reasonable.

You can always use the Stratics trade forums and individual shard trade forums if you don't want something sitting on a vendor running up fees.

Prices aren't going up because of "greed", they're going up because of inflation. There is more and more gold in the game every day (counting for nearly 20 years), and our player base isn't as big as it used to be. These are just natural market forces, unfortunately.
Absolutely! Since the game trade system is so ineffective and unreasonable to use we should do our trading on a 3rd party website forum. Makes perfect sense! :)
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
Problem is on lesser populated shards that item could sit a month or so. Those fees add up and not all of us are rares traders therefore it effects the casual player even more. Also keep in mind that the numbers you listed are for 1 item. How many vendors do you visit with one item?
Like addressed before, even if vendor fees were 1%, it'd take 100 days to break even.

Pretty sure this will evolve back into what I've mentioned before, but go ahead and shoot.
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Like addressed before, even if vendor fees were 1%, it'd take 100 days to break even.

Pretty sure this will evolve back into what I've mentioned before, but go ahead and shoot.
You mean a 100 days till the item that was worth 100 gold is now worth zero gold? Because you paid vendor fees and now the item has actually lost you money and time? So if I paid say 5 mill for something that I want to resale for 6 mill. That happens everyday. There's a very brief window where you went from making a mill to losing a ton. We shouldn't have to deal with that just because we are on a low population shard thus the item would naturally sit longer. There's no break even at a 100 days. It's 100 days till you've lost the full value of the item. You probably lost any reasonable profit in 10 to 20 days in your scenario. You probably broke even at about day 15.
 

Drowy

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
On small shards there is not a big demand for certain and high priced items. It is not profitable. I tried to sell some 120 scrolls on our shard, but the more expensive ones like 120 eval keep sitting in the vendor (and I normally sell items at the lowest price over all shards). So after 30 days I took out the expensive ones and found someone to transfer them to atlantic. Often I hear people there is no stuff to buy on our shard, but if some items are just bought once a year, its not profitable. At the moment I just sell items that have a market on our shard and some items people might need even if I dont make profit out of it, like mastery scrolls level 1 and 2. I would like to sell more items on our shard, but it doesnt make sense at the moment.
So I am also for a fee only when the item is sold.
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
You mean a 100 days till the item that was worth 100 gold is now worth zero gold? Because you paid vendor fees and now the item has actually lost you money and time? So if I paid say 5 mill for something that I want to resale for 6 mill. That happens everyday. There's a very brief window where you went from making a mill to losing a ton. We shouldn't have to deal with that just because we are on a low population shard thus the item would naturally sit longer. There's no break even at a 100 days. It's 100 days till you've lost the full value of the item. You probably lost any reasonable profit in 10 to 20 days in your scenario. You probably broke even at about day 15.
Yep in 100 days it's worth 0.

I'm weighing it against the reality that no one generally leaves items on for 100 days whether they sell or not.

And I did mention the resale game has its risk regardless of vendor fees.

I'm not sure why you'd want to gamble the resale game on a dead shard but let's be real here, if you collect rares I'm guessing you're transferring to other shards at least demo regularly.
 

ambrossia

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Kind of OT, but I was kinda sad when items (especially EM items and one of a kind items) first started being taken my shard and being brought over to Atlantic to sell.
What they should have done in the first place when they made character transfers, to only transfer your gold and characters only and not be allowed to take any items.
Course, cat out of the bag now.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Would actually hate to see EA purchase another game company, "fix it", then close it in a year ;)
Agreed EA has shelved more great games and studios over the years after buying the company than I care to think about. I just look at the vendor fees as a tax that punishes the lower pop shards and prevents people from keeping even the low end items stocked. As you or Bea pointed out if you mark the higher end items down even 25% they get bought up fast and X sharded to Atl. forcing one of two things #1 just do without or #2 Use Shard Shield or Buy transfer tokens to go buy on Atl. and return home. The buying transfer tokens on younger accounts for ATL shopping excursions gets expensive fast. And as a added bonus take the gold off of the already struggling low pop shards. I was going to buy some of the stuff you had on Vendors, Think it was you, but I have started keeping my prodo gold on Atl. for those shopping trips and was still about 10 days out from the shields popping out more tokens. LOL it is a global or in this case multi shard economy now that has wrecked the individual shards economies.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yep in 100 days it's worth 0.

I'm weighing it against the reality that no one generally leaves items on for 100 days whether they sell or not.

And I did mention the resale game has its risk regardless of vendor fees.

I'm not sure why you'd want to gamble the resale game on a dead shard but let's be real here, if you collect rares I'm guessing you're transferring to other shards at least demo regularly.
Not uncommon for things to sit on a vendor on low pop shards for 3-4 months at a time. A full spell book for example, does not take long for the spell book to not be worth putting on a vendor, then when someone logs on and needs a full spell book they can't find one. Its not just high end items and rares. Who is going to stock a alchemist shop, a scribe shop, a imbue ingred shop that moves stuff slowly and takes a beating on vendor fees constantly. 6% when the item sells would be a much more fair system on all shards and make little to no difference on Atl.
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
Not uncommon for things to sit on a vendor on low pop shards for 3-4 months at a time. A full spell book for example, does not take long for the spell book to not be worth putting on a vendor, then when someone logs on and needs a full spell book they can't find one. Its not just high end items and rares. Who is going to stock a alchemist shop, a scribe shop, a imbue ingred shop that moves stuff slowly and takes a beating on vendor fees constantly. 6% when the item sells would be a much more fair system on all shards and make little to no difference on Atl.
Low end items are pretty much a wash when making the vendor fee argument.

I agree they shouldn't have them, but 60 (or whatever the base fee is) gold a day is hardly a reason to change vendor fees.

even a 100 pots worth say 5k is 30 gold + base fee.

Is this really the argument you want to make?
 

Tanivar

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Its actually the low end items that I think suffer the most from vendor fees on low population shards. The high end items you could just auction stuff off on the shard boards but it's not feasible to auction off a bunch of "exceptional shovels"
If your exceptional shovels don't sell, theirs no demand for them on your shard. Your shards Miners make their own or have a source already.

High end powerscrolls, masteries, or super gear items may not sell on lower population shards because people already have them or their safely insured and will last years.

Try vending various things, if they don't sell, toss them in junk chests until you hear someone request one on General Chat.

If you try selling miniskirts in a religious town, your stock is going to sit unsold.
 

Tanivar

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Some things like spellbooks should just be put on a vendor one at a time for 499 gold ( no fee) and left there until someone needs it, then put another one on the vendor. Their rarely needed items with no demand.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Low end items are pretty much a wash when making the vendor fee argument.

I agree they shouldn't have them, but 60 (or whatever the base fee is) gold a day is hardly a reason to change vendor fees.

even a 100 pots worth say 5k is 30 gold + base fee.

Is this really the argument you want to make?
I am guessing you don't play a low pop shard as your primary. Because it is a valid argument. While things move slowly they do still move in time. Call it public service vending I was not putting those things out to make a killing but I also was not putting them out to lose gold either, just by virtue of those items sitting on a vendor for when someone did need a spell book or a keg of pots.

Not seeing any arguments as to why fee's should not be made a simple flat % so not seeing the argument anyway other than it is different than the punishing vendor fees.
 

Garen

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Mabye allow us to 'shard bound' consumables (pof, scrolls, etc). Then we can sell them at a discount without the xtraders buying them all to sell elsewhere.
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
I am guessing you don't play a low pop shard as your primary. Because it is a valid argument. While things move slowly they do still move in time. Call it public service vending I was not putting those things out to make a killing but I also was not putting them out to lose gold either, just by virtue of those items sitting on a vendor for when someone did need a spell book or a keg of pots.

Not seeing any arguments as to why fee's should not be made a simple flat % so not seeing the argument anyway other than it is different than the punishing vendor fees.
Low end items are not a justification to nerf the fees for high end items.

It is particularly why the argument is centered around low end items and for others the buy and sell game.

Again I agree low end items shouldn't have a fee below say 10k.

There just isn't a valid reason otherwise.
 

Tanivar

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Low end items are not a justification to nerf the fees for high end items.

It is particularly why the argument is centered around low end items and for others the buy and sell game.

Again I agree low end items shouldn't have a fee below say 10k.

There just isn't a valid reason otherwise.
Exactly true. Those folks want to be able to price items at ludicrous prices and get every 'my precious' gold piece they can. 947,000,000,000 gold in the bank isn't enough!!!!!
 

Captn Norrington

Stratics Forum Moderator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
947,000,000,000 gold in the bank isn't enough!!!!!
Oh don't worry, a significant amount of people don't keep the gold in their UO bank. They keep it in their real life bank instead after they sell the gold for real money.

I miss the days when UO was a game instead of certain people's personal piggy bank.
 

Uriah Heep

Grand Poobah
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Not uncommon for things to sit on a vendor on low pop shards for 3-4 months at a time. A full spell book for example, does not take long for the spell book to not be worth putting on a vendor, then when someone logs on and needs a full spell book they can't find one. Its not just high end items and rares. Who is going to stock a alchemist shop, a scribe shop, a imbue ingred shop that moves stuff slowly and takes a beating on vendor fees constantly. 6% when the item sells would be a much more fair system on all shards and make little to no difference on Atl.
This. I tried to maintain some vendors with almost all the crafted deco items on them, pots, scribe, you name it. Various items trickled off, being bought, and I would replace them. Did that for 3 months, at the end of the 3 months, I had lost money because of the fees...

What we need is to recruit a few particular names to post supporting our cause, then we might ahve a chance of seeing a change
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
This. I tried to maintain some vendors with almost all the crafted deco items on them, pots, scribe, you name it. Various items trickled off, being bought, and I would replace them. Did that for 3 months, at the end of the 3 months, I had lost money because of the fees...

What we need is to recruit a few particular names to post supporting our cause, then we might ahve a chance of seeing a change
What particular names did you have in mind?
 

Uriah Heep

Grand Poobah
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
You probably know the ones. But I wasnt throwing that at you.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Oh don't worry, a significant amount of people don't keep the gold in their UO bank. They keep it in their real life bank instead after they sell the gold for real money.

I miss the days when UO was a game instead of certain people's personal piggy bank.
Much truth in that . Sell the gold, person buying gold then goes and shop the gold sellers vendor in game, buys the items and give the gold seller the gold back to sell again. Over simplification of the system but how it basically works.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
This. I tried to maintain some vendors with almost all the crafted deco items on them, pots, scribe, you name it. Various items trickled off, being bought, and I would replace them. Did that for 3 months, at the end of the 3 months, I had lost money because of the fees...

What we need is to recruit a few particular names to post supporting our cause, then we might ahve a chance of seeing a change
I would not even mind it being a cap at say 50k with the flat % Getting really sick of the OMG someone nefarious might benefit from it argument to constantly punish the legit players. Someone nefarious usually benefits more from the anti nefarious measures, pushing the legit players out of the market. Since the nefarious people only sell on Atlantic and their items don't sit on vendors very long, a flat % would make zero difference to them. Over all it would benefit the casual player and the people that are not stuffing a vendor with 50mil-300mil gold items. The simple fact you can't run a basic items shop at even break even is a real problem.
 

MissEcho

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I think their concern is that yes on a shard like Atlantic where stuff sells in a day or two it isn't a big deal to pay vendor fees, but when you live on a shard with a tiny population it will take much longer to sell anything because there are no buyers.

The same 100m item (doesn't have to be rares, could be a slither, a box of 120 power scrolls etc.) that would sell in under a week on Atlantic might take 3+ months to sell on a tiny shard like Legends or Origin, if it ends up selling at all.

So since the sellers won't make any money by running vendors due to how long it takes to sell things, there are no vendors. When there are no vendors, it makes it nearly impossible for new people to play there because they can't even find the simplest things like power scrolls or veteran rewards.

That leads to an endless cycle of dead shards becoming even more dead because new players can't play there, and all the merchants have to ship things off-shard to Atlantic to make any gold.

If vendor fees were reduced or eliminated the merchants might be willing to let items sit on their vendor for months, instead of sending it to Atlantic. Since there would be stuff on vendors, new people could come to that shard and find things to buy which allows them to stay and continue playing on that shard.
Actually spot on.

I run both.
I have 3 vendors on Atlantic, which I transfer stuff to to sell.
I have 10 vendors on Oceania which I try to keep stocked for 'local' players.

The items stocked on Atlantic sell within a day or two. The identical items on my Oceania vendor which are also 'cheaper' may not sell at all or take months to sell. An example of this is 'Books of Masteries' On Atlantic I can't keep them in stock, have to keep transferring over more books each time someone is going over (seeing as I am one of those people discriminated against as my account is only 12.6 yrs old) I sell them for 150k ea. Same item on Oceania sells slowly due to lack of pop, I sell them there for 50k ea. It is like this for ALL items, yet it costs me the same in vendor fees to stock on either shard. So not only am I making 1/3rd the amount I can sell on Atlantic for it works out to be even less as by the time something may of sat for 4 mths or more churning through vendor fees, the profit is vastly diminished.

The thing is you never know when someone on a smaller shard will want something so you keep it stocked at a loss in the effort to provide a service. Of my ten vendors in any given week I wil make a loss on 6-7 of them, a profit on the other 3-4 which may or may not offset the loss on the others. Luckily the need for 'imbuing resources' is pretty much the only item of comparable price and 'saleability' so sales on that tends to prop up the losses of all other items. I don't even bother selling those on Atlantic as the scripters have that pretty much covered.

I make 10 times more money on Atlantic than on Oceania yet stock a lot less. High end items I will 'float' on my Oce vendors for a week. After that time (and getting extorted on the vendor fee' I will remove it from sale and ship it where it will generally sell for double or more in a day or so. Sad thing is the following week someone will be asking for that item and I won't have it on shard any more as couldnt afford to keep stocking it not knowing when or if a buyer would come along.

I don't consider that I am over priced, sure I could keep dropping stuff til it was 100 gps but there comes a point where your 'time' has to mean something, and maintaining 10 stocked vendors takes time. Basically I don't stock anything for 5k or less accept a couple of easy items like mel machetes etc.

My vendor fees on 3xAtlantic vendors total on avg 1.5 to 2mil per DAY.
The fees on 10 Oceania vendors total on avg 480k per DAY.

All vendors are fully 'stocked' in that most cannot take any more 'items'. I make a huge profit on Atlantic, and break even/losses on Oceania. Am I tempted to just quit with the Oce vendors, YEP.

What is the solution.

The only one I can see is using a 'sale' fee which applied on sale and/or 'removal' of item from the vendor. So if an item has been on a vendor for 6 hrs (give people time to change their minds or correct prices) then it will incur a flat fee when the item is removed from the vendor or sold. Not this current state of charging continuously for however long the item sits on a vendor.

But of course what may happen then is ppl will abuse it by using it as cheap storage, so there would need to be put into a sliding scale so items of higher value incur a higher fee to discourage it. ie: 0-50k 1%, 51-100k 2%, 101-500k 3% 501k-1m 5%, 1m-5m 7%, 5m-10m 10%, 10m + 20%. That would then stop people using vendors for storage but give a seller a known 'cost' incurred for an item sold, so for me to stock a book of masteries at 50k on Oceania would cost: 50k x 1% (500gps) ONCE, on Atlantic 150k x 3% (4,500) ONCE.

I could then 'factor' in the vendor fee when pricing and it wouldn't matter how long the item sat on the vendor, I would know that the book was gonna cost me between 500-4500 depending on location/price sold rather than how long it took to sell. Items that were 'worth' 10 mil I can sell on either shard as the cost to sell would be identical it wouldnt matter 'how' long it took and wouldn't cost me to do businiess on the small shard more than that on Atlantic.

The only drawback to the above would be if you stocked an item for say 5mil, which incurred a 10% fee (500k) and then wanted to 'reprice' it due to lack of sale you would be hit up the 500k but have no sale. I guess merchants would need to be careful with their pricing unless IDEALY they could code in a 'reprice' option where you could click on an item on a vendor and select 'reprice' so the price could be lowered or raised without affection the fee taken until the item was sold or removed from the vendor.

I know I would much prefer a 'flat fee' charged for selling an item, rather than this current system. Surely it wouldn't be that hard to code in. It would certainly make it fairer while maintaining the 'gold sink'. On really popular items that sell quick it would probably provide even more of a gold sink as 20% on 10m + items could prove to be more than vendor fees if an item sold within an hour or so of being put on the vendor.

Vendor fees are killing vendors on small shards, and it doesn't need to be so. I do not advocate no fees, but the above would surely be a fairer system and help all shard economies.
 

Ruppy2

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Every other shard is being killed by insane vendor fees. Smell the coffee Mesanna.
Are you really expecting someone at Broadsword to understand or care about supply side economics, demand side economics, or BOTH?

Two solutions to tinker with, which could affect "power vendors" could be:
1) the more items you have on your vendor, the higher the rate charged per item
2) or the more the cost of an item, the higher the tax
3) possible combination of the above two
 

Olahorand

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Instead of a proposed flat fee at sales only which could promote the using vendor as storage option there could be a maximum percentage per item taken at the current conditions and be capped at 0, 10, 15, maybe 20% of the sales value with cap depending from the sales price (and the already paid fees should also survive a price change).
So if the item is sold fast, you may be lucky and pay 2%, if it is sitting forever, you would pay the maximum of 20%, but not more than the item is worth.

*Salute*
Olahorand
 

MissEcho

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Instead of a proposed flat fee at sales only which could promote the using vendor as storage option there could be a maximum percentage per item taken at the current conditions and be capped at 0, 10, 15, maybe 20% of the sales value with cap depending from the sales price (and the already paid fees should also survive a price change).
So if the item is sold fast, you may be lucky and pay 2%, if it is sitting forever, you would pay the maximum of 20%, but not more than the item is worth.

*Salute*
Olahorand
That penalizes the small shards again. Any time you increase the fee based on how long an item is on a vendor defeats the purpose of changing it. It is why I said to stop vendor storage you have to charge the 'fee' either when the item is sold or when the item is removed from the vendor. People are not gonna 'store' choice items on a vendor for less than 50k in an aim to pay minimum fees as they dont want to sell the item, and if they try to whack it on a vendor for storage at inflated prices so they 'don't' sell then the fee will be huge 20% plus for their effort.

People used vendors for storage when the fees were only calculated once per day, they would 'whip' the expensive items off to avoid the fees. The above stops that as the fee is paid irrespective. A flat based fee with the design as I outlined above means it doesn't matter what shard you are on, or how quick an item sells, the base charge is the same. As it is now, on all items, if they don't sell, after 166 days you have paid vendor fees for the full price of the item so will obtain 0 profit if it sells at day 167, after that you are in LOSS if it sits on the vendor any longer. The shards where stuff takes ages to sell due to low pop are then penalised as the vendor fees do not discriminate.

eg, a vendor charges 60gp per real world day. If you put an item on the vendor selling for 1000 gps, the charge per day is 66gps. So the cost for that item is 6gp per day. (1000/6=166 days). (obviously if that was the ONLY item on the vendor in 15 days you are heading into loss as the basic daily charge is 60 irrespective of the value of the item you are selling)

If you put an item on the vendor at 100,000gps the charge per day is 600gp per day. (100,000/600=166 days), you can test this by putting one item on a vendor to see what the fee is.
If you put an item on the vendor at 10,000,000gps the charge per day is 60,000gps per day (10,000,000/60,000= 166 days)

I have used basic round figures above 1k, 100k 10mil but the maths is the same. You get 166 days of an item on a vendor before you cannot make a profit it it sells.

On the 100k example if an item sells immediately (ie one day after placing on the vendor) the vendor fee will be 600gps. On the smaller shards that same item may sit for 45 days, hence the fee charged will be 27,000 gps. A huge difference. If on the other hand you used a 'flat sale fee' in my example above on 100k would be 2%, then the fee would be 2000 gps irrespective of how long it sat on the vendor. It doesn't penalize the low population shards. That is the difference, the current system totally penalizes those on a small shard as items on small shards take a much longer time to sell due to lower demand/pop. Sure there are some items that will sell quick on any shard for similar prices so the fees are the same, however, in reality the bulk of items on small shard do take much much longer to sell hence to make the same 'profit' on an identical item is much harder. Sure you can drop your prices that just totally destroys your profit too.

The flat fee system totally sets the balance as you only pay the fee based on the item price you are selling and you only pay it ONCE. If you sell your item 167 days after you put it on the vendor you still make a profit and not ZERO. In my above example of a 100k item under the existing system after 166 days if I sell the item I make nothing. I have paid in vendor fees the total amount of the value of the item. On the flat based system, I would of make 98,000 after my 2% was deducted.

Conversly if I put an item on a vendor for 50 millon, on the above example at a flat 20% fee, I will pay $10 million in vendor fees if I sell it the day after I post it or 200 days after I post it for sale.

On the existing system an item at 50 mil attracts a 300k per day fee. So if it sells in 1 day the fee is 300k but if it takes 45 days to sell it is 13.5 mil, if it takes 166 days then the fee is 49.8 mil. So basically the person on the quick turn over shard, ie Atlantic, pays much less due to rapid turnover, irrespective of how much profit they are making on an item compared to those taking longer to sell on the small shards for the same item at the same price. A flat fee is MUCH MUCH fairer.
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
I would not even mind it being a cap at say 50k with the flat % Getting really sick of the OMG someone nefarious might benefit from it argument to constantly punish the legit players. Someone nefarious usually benefits more from the anti nefarious measures, pushing the legit players out of the market. Since the nefarious people only sell on Atlantic and their items don't sit on vendors very long, a flat % would make zero difference to them. Over all it would benefit the casual player and the people that are not stuffing a vendor with 50mil-300mil gold items. The simple fact you can't run a basic items shop at even break even is a real problem.
I'm particularly sure what you're getting at here.

Even though I don't play Atlantic, you can't place duped items on a vendor, so I'm not sure how they'd be any better or worse off than everyone else.

It also has nothing to do with gold selling, but if they're making a killing from it, then vendor fees must not be too bad.
 

OREOGL

Crazed Zealot
Professional
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Campaign Patron
Actually spot on.

I run both.
I have 3 vendors on Atlantic, which I transfer stuff to to sell.
I have 10 vendors on Oceania which I try to keep stocked for 'local' players.

The items stocked on Atlantic sell within a day or two. The identical items on my Oceania vendor which are also 'cheaper' may not sell at all or take months to sell. An example of this is 'Books of Masteries' On Atlantic I can't keep them in stock, have to keep transferring over more books each time someone is going over (seeing as I am one of those people discriminated against as my account is only 12.6 yrs old) I sell them for 150k ea. Same item on Oceania sells slowly due to lack of pop, I sell them there for 50k ea. It is like this for ALL items, yet it costs me the same in vendor fees to stock on either shard. So not only am I making 1/3rd the amount I can sell on Atlantic for it works out to be even less as by the time something may of sat for 4 mths or more churning through vendor fees, the profit is vastly diminished.

The thing is you never know when someone on a smaller shard will want something so you keep it stocked at a loss in the effort to provide a service. Of my ten vendors in any given week I wil make a loss on 6-7 of them, a profit on the other 3-4 which may or may not offset the loss on the others. Luckily the need for 'imbuing resources' is pretty much the only item of comparable price and 'saleability' so sales on that tends to prop up the losses of all other items. I don't even bother selling those on Atlantic as the scripters have that pretty much covered.

I make 10 times more money on Atlantic than on Oceania yet stock a lot less. High end items I will 'float' on my Oce vendors for a week. After that time (and getting extorted on the vendor fee' I will remove it from sale and ship it where it will generally sell for double or more in a day or so. Sad thing is the following week someone will be asking for that item and I won't have it on shard any more as couldnt afford to keep stocking it not knowing when or if a buyer would come along.

I don't consider that I am over priced, sure I could keep dropping stuff til it was 100 gps but there comes a point where your 'time' has to mean something, and maintaining 10 stocked vendors takes time. Basically I don't stock anything for 5k or less accept a couple of easy items like mel machetes etc.

My vendor fees on 3xAtlantic vendors total on avg 1.5 to 2mil per DAY.
The fees on 10 Oceania vendors total on avg 480k per DAY.

All vendors are fully 'stocked' in that most cannot take any more 'items'. I make a huge profit on Atlantic, and break even/losses on Oceania. Am I tempted to just quit with the Oce vendors, YEP.

What is the solution.

The only one I can see is using a 'sale' fee which applied on sale and/or 'removal' of item from the vendor. So if an item has been on a vendor for 6 hrs (give people time to change their minds or correct prices) then it will incur a flat fee when the item is removed from the vendor or sold. Not this current state of charging continuously for however long the item sits on a vendor.

But of course what may happen then is ppl will abuse it by using it as cheap storage, so there would need to be put into a sliding scale so items of higher value incur a higher fee to discourage it. ie: 0-50k 1%, 51-100k 2%, 101-500k 3% 501k-1m 5%, 1m-5m 7%, 5m-10m 10%, 10m + 20%. That would then stop people using vendors for storage but give a seller a known 'cost' incurred for an item sold, so for me to stock a book of masteries at 50k on Oceania would cost: 50k x 1% (500gps) ONCE, on Atlantic 150k x 3% (4,500) ONCE.

I could then 'factor' in the vendor fee when pricing and it wouldn't matter how long the item sat on the vendor, I would know that the book was gonna cost me between 500-4500 depending on location/price sold rather than how long it took to sell. Items that were 'worth' 10 mil I can sell on either shard as the cost to sell would be identical it wouldnt matter 'how' long it took and wouldn't cost me to do businiess on the small shard more than that on Atlantic.

The only drawback to the above would be if you stocked an item for say 5mil, which incurred a 10% fee (500k) and then wanted to 'reprice' it due to lack of sale you would be hit up the 500k but have no sale. I guess merchants would need to be careful with their pricing unless IDEALY they could code in a 'reprice' option where you could click on an item on a vendor and select 'reprice' so the price could be lowered or raised without affection the fee taken until the item was sold or removed from the vendor.

I know I would much prefer a 'flat fee' charged for selling an item, rather than this current system. Surely it wouldn't be that hard to code in. It would certainly make it fairer while maintaining the 'gold sink'. On really popular items that sell quick it would probably provide even more of a gold sink as 20% on 10m + items could prove to be more than vendor fees if an item sold within an hour or so of being put on the vendor.

Vendor fees are killing vendors on small shards, and it doesn't need to be so. I do not advocate no fees, but the above would surely be a fairer system and help all shard economies.
After reading this, everything points to lack of population.

You are still stocking regardless of fees at a reduced price, and no one is buying.

Even if they turned vendor fees off on small shards and the items still sit, then what?
 

FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Patron
I agree the fee is to high, drop it to 1/3 for PC vendors and make it 1/% for Stall/Community vendors, the 5% it is now make it impossible to use the vendors for selling stuff.
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Yep in 100 days it's worth 0.

I'm weighing it against the reality that no one generally leaves items on for 100 days whether they sell or not.

And I did mention the resale game has its risk regardless of vendor fees.

I'm not sure why you'd want to gamble the resale game on a dead shard but let's be real here, if you collect rares I'm guessing you're transferring to other shards at least demo regularly.
I would like to collect rares lol. I do in a very limited fashion. I don't have shard shields, so a trip to Atlantic is something to seriously consider. Figure 140 mill just for a round trip. Plus your not going to find a transfer token on Legends. Plus on Legends you don't see items over 20 mill. The vendor fees are unrealistic for that *cough* :) So if I were on Atlantic I'd probably be a big rares wheeler and dealer. But as is I collect a few rares.when I can. When I do buy it's usually stuff that was 90 mill a year ago and is now 15 mill lol I have a soft spot for Legends stuff and that's about the only time I'll splurge.
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Hmm I don't know man, but you're
On.

Let's say January 31st if they haven't announced the releaseto steam, it'll be 10m to the shard of your choice.

Agreed?
I would agree but like I say I don't have shard shields so to spend 70 mill for a token to give you 10 mill doesn't work for me lol. Unless you wanna pick it up on Legends.
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Some things like spellbooks should just be put on a vendor one at a time for 499 gold ( no fee) and left there until someone needs it, then put another one on the vendor. Their rarely needed items with no demand.
I sell a lot of spellbooks lol. I think people are still moving to the grassy fields of Legends! :) Nice community. Lots of prime spots to build. Just enough PKs to keep you on your toes lol. If we can just get some relief with this vendor issue... :D PS Anyone selling full spellbooks for 500 gps has never made a spellbook lol I actually had to raise prices on them quite a bit to resist resellers.
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Yeah if I have to sell it for 499, I aint gonna bother...and there is the problem we are talking about
Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure materials cost more than that lol. Your over 300 just in blank scrolls not counting the regs :p Then there's the insane vendor fees... :D
 

Drowy

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
After reading this, everything points to lack of population.

You are still stocking regardless of fees at a reduced price, and no one is buying.

Even if they turned vendor fees off on small shards and the items still sit, then what?
It may be bought then after 3,6,9,12 month or later. We just want to provide as many items on our shards as possible. Atm returning players wonder why there arent many items for sale and may leave the shard or even the game. We got most of the items you can get in the game, but it doesnt make sense to put them on vendors on small shards. Then everyone would have to come to Drachenfels cause I have the cheapest prices most of the time. :)
 

MissEcho

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
After reading this, everything points to lack of population.

You are still stocking regardless of fees at a reduced price, and no one is buying.

Even if they turned vendor fees off on small shards and the items still sit, then what?
People do buy however on the small shards it is just slower. Like I said, I sell on both Atlantic and my home shard. I generally sell cheaper on my home shard due to the slower sales, more for reducing the impact of vendor fees than for the fact that people won't pay the full retail price.

The OP was suggesting that the fees were killing small shards, and they are, due to the slower sales. I don't agree with no fees, just a more balanced system where the fee is based on the amount of the item you are selling rather than the time it takes to sell. I might not sell a plant on my home shard for 3 months, then I go one day to find that the plant vendor has sold out as someone had decided to redeco. It is the same for imbuing ingredients, may not sell any for over a week, but then all 'essence of order' sells out as someone decides to do imbuing and needs it. If I have stuff that after 6 months I have sold NONE of then I don't continue to stock it. However I tend not to stock stuff that doesn't sell, it just takes a lot longer to sell it on my home shard than on Atlantic. The longer something takes to sell the more vendor fees you pay, so not only do you sell stuff cheaper anyways, you also pay more in fees. If they turned vendor fees off (not that that is what I recommend or think would happen) and the stuff just sits there is actually NOT a problem as it isn't sending you broke.

I sell rune books on Atlantic for 5k ea, I sell them on Oceania for 5k ea. I will sell 30 books on Atlantic in a week, and 30 books on Oceania in perhaps 2 months. It doesn't matter if I drop the price of books on Oceania to 500gps I would still sell the same amount as it is not the price but the demand that determines the 'sale'. The only difference is the profit on atlantic is 143,700 (30 runebooks x 5k ea incurs 30 x 30gps x 7 days = 6,300 total fees), to the profit on Oceania is 96,000, ( 30 runebooks x 5k ea incurs 30 x 30 gps x 60days = 54,000) the only difference being the time they take to sell.

Because of the slower sales and vendor fees what is happening is that people give up on even bothering to sell anything on the small shards. A flat fee means we all pay fees, just it doesn't matter how long it takes to sell. If I have 30 plants on my plant vendor at 5k ea (total worth 150k) in 3 months ( say 93 days) that is 83,700 gps I have paid in vendor fees on those plants. If I then sell out I make only 66,300 profit. If on the other hand it was a flat fee system, on the above example items under 50k incur a 1% fee so at 5k per plant that is 50gps 'fee' per plant. On 30 plants that is a total of 1500gps and I make 148,500 and it doesn't matter how long they take to sell. It means that I can afford to stock really cheap and low end items at no loss. Obviously the greedier I am and the more I charge then the more fees I pay.

Vendors on small shards are not encouraged to sell the 'every day' items as there is little profit in it. The complaint with a lot of players on small shards is there is nothing to buy, that is why. On my furniture vendor I stock 'anvils' and 'small forges' and I might sell one of them every 3-4 months to a restarting player who doesn't have a crafter yet. By the time that anvil or small forge has sat there for that long I am probably making about 20% of the original price I posted it for, which probably doesn't cover the cost of the ingots to make it :) A flat fee would eliminate the problem.
 
Top