I suggested this when VvV came around and pretty much every pvper was in strong opposition.
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I Demand Faction items are put back on Siege
- Thread starter 805connection
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I Demand Faction items are put back on Siege
Posted by
805connection
UO Siege Perilous
Friday, July 15, 2016 - 12:00 AM
Until: Friday, July 15, 2016 - 05:00 PM
(Adjusted for timezone: America/Los_Angeles)
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If a pvmer gets your gear, they participated in pvp with you to get it. Losing your gear to a pvmer shouldn't be a concern should it?
So instead of you, one person, tweaking your template you expect a whole server to be changed which would affect everyone on it?
That's exactly how it should be if they aren't going to take the actual time to balance loot on this shard. Unlike some pvmers I fully agree that pvpers should have a route to gearing though pvp, I just don't think it should be a protected right, because that would be inequitable.
I personally would like something like "spoils of war" loot drop chests for winning towns rather than points for items, but you have to shoot for 1 hour dev changes on siege.
Jesus, just use imbued gear dude, no one is rocking uber barbed runic suits. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want to be a player functioning on a regular level on this shard Imbuing is 100% a required skill. I agree there are gearing issues, but you holding up VvV items as some necessary stepping stone into pvp, when imbued gear offers a perfectly functional base.
Wide scale pvp (read: NOT PKING) doesn't happen here because UO's itemization is not designed for item loss. Simple as that. VvV arties won't fix it.
This system was designed around being inequitable. It's a risk vs reward system. That's why VvV can use supernovas and war mounts, and why one would have to take a count when attacking a non-vvver
Non VVV blue - safe 100% of the time in GZ, and globally safe from VVVers who don't wish to be red
VVV blue - never safe and 100% flaggable at all time - this is a pretty big deal guys.
Plus, all the hate for these artifacts stems from when there was no comparable gear, pre-imbuing, and pre-loot buff.
I've killed people and found the same mods imbued on their jewels and suits that I would find on the VvV artifacts.... and tbh Uvtha.. VvV does eliminate the need for imbuing for a new player. I can satisfy the core necessities with the mods available on VVV artifacts for a basic suit and fill in the rest of the bits with junk magic items, whereas to achieve the exact same suit now, I'd 100% absolutely have to imbue those same mods on jewelry.
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Like, as a VvVer I would be mad to see someone like Kelmo bank sitting with a suit of VvV artifacts on because I know he got to make a cheap and easy suit but I can't kill him and take it because he isn't orange. 100% reward, 0% risk. Also, I wouldn't really flag on him anywhere because that would involve me taking a murder count (being red would ruin my ability to play). That makes him safe *all the time* unless he chooses to flag me, and that is why people are fighting against it.
You at least see that point, right?
You at least see that point, right?
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You hit the nail on the head right there. It's a legacy belief from a time when faction artifacts did give a significant edge over the common player. Those days, however, are long gone. There is a level playing field now.
So I guess the people who wanted the blessed bunny ears and ember legs removed were just "pancakes and moaning" as well?
Just because something is implemented on Siege doesn´t mean it should be here.
The devs design this game and its features after prodo servers and their rulesets. Siege just happen to get it too. And that is why we need issues that causes an imbalance to be resolved.
What do you just completely ignore posts with actual facts? We already had the artifacts to begin with. It was the focus group that had them taken away. They didnt like how the game was. They cried a river of tears to have them taken away. What do you not get about that? They changed it. Without some core building blocks to make suits it made PvPers leave. Unlike most of you who maybe get PKed now once a year if that. We went out looking for fights, and dieing instantly to a dismount gank and losing you suit was hard. Having the artifacts took a little sting out of dieing outnumbered a few times in a row.
If a healthy PVP community was present here all of a sudden WITHOUT artifacts it would quickly burn out. It is to hard to replace stuff here. Even if I only died once a week it would be difficult for me now to put together suits, and I have been playing Siege awhile, so I have gear. Imagine how hard it would be for a newcomer to start pvping here.
This is the kelmo promotional model for siege.
Loot! We want loot!
I guess my main concern about VvV items (aside from simply philosophically disliking artificial boundaries like player locked items) is that it just makes life more dangerous for pvmers, with no possible compensation for that danger increase. I see access to these items as being a pretty big advantage over the general population, I don't think the lock is necessary, and certainly can't be a deal breaker. I mean if a pvmer manages to overcome a pvp attacker, I feel like they should be rewarded just as fully as the opposite scenario.
I'm sure that VvV arties do cover that ground (which is why I want them on) but OP is acting as if it's impossible to pvp without these items. I'm just saying, if you wanna pvp, just work on imbuing, as that's the only viable avenue right now, and it works fine.
In closing, I think our shard needs a complete overhaul in terms of how and were we get our items, and what their power levels are and any suggestions I make are just an attempt at pragmatic bandages as I can possibly imagine. I think we have needed it for about a decade now. For example I really dislike the idea of vending machine items, but it's just the simplest way to get people geared without forcing excessive pvm/or gold investment.
A more controversial opinion: Make all VvV conflicts arena style pvp. No one loses items. Maintains shards open pvp, risk, etc, while giving pvpers something they can do all day and eliminates gearing issues. Essentially that's what people have been doing a soft version of, and everyone seemed to like it. Not only that but it would open up a lot of economic options, and give people more incentive to hunt down uber pieces. VvV should be more about the fight, and less about the loot, IMO.
I do agree with this. Back in the day faction arties absolutly were an issue, I don't think they would be such an issue today. I still think they should be open use and antique, though, to support freedom and not further devalue the real deal.
kelmo
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Then go change the rules of some other shard. If insurance is yer beef just say that.
Yeah, it certainly will make life more dangerous for PvMers in the form of more VvV PK'ers lurking due to core pieces being more available. PvMers are likely to be geared for PvM anyways, though, so I doubt they'd be equipping antique VvV artifacts, but would rather be wearing luck or something. Plus, with name tags being removed, there will obviously be a gold market for VvV artifacts.. so at least it won't be a total waste when a PvMer gets a one-up.
Anyways, short of an overhaul, re-instating the artifacts this is the easiest and most effective way of being pragmatic in the short term without the devs having to do any real work. Since my ATL friends have heard I'm playing siege again, many of them want to play and I have to take it upon myself at the moment to suit each and every one of them since I have stuff here. They're totally helpless and they're frustrated and turned off that the one thing that could help them suit up easily was removed.
Anyways, short of an overhaul, re-instating the artifacts this is the easiest and most effective way of being pragmatic in the short term without the devs having to do any real work. Since my ATL friends have heard I'm playing siege again, many of them want to play and I have to take it upon myself at the moment to suit each and every one of them since I have stuff here. They're totally helpless and they're frustrated and turned off that the one thing that could help them suit up easily was removed.
Haha. Yeah, I'll jump right on that...
Helpless and frustrated Atl-PKs? Where is the problem? I like it this way.
Naturally! Lowered risk is of course favorable for a PvM'er, but that is not the spirit of SP!
Making them useable for all would make more join VvV to get them, that mean more VvV'er in town = more action
There are no trammel to hide in here. Sure some blue may use them, but in town, they have no use of them and if they use them out of town, you can kill them and you would at least get some loot you could use instead of a suit that do not fit your char.
It would be easier for all to rebuild suits, that would make more play and be more willing to risk to die.
What is best, allow them useable for all or not allow them at all?
Second give Siege more basis luck, so it is easier to farm good stuff and increase artifact drop
There are no trammel to hide in here. Sure some blue may use them, but in town, they have no use of them and if they use them out of town, you can kill them and you would at least get some loot you could use instead of a suit that do not fit your char.
It would be easier for all to rebuild suits, that would make more play and be more willing to risk to die.
What is best, allow them useable for all or not allow them at all?
Second give Siege more basis luck, so it is easier to farm good stuff and increase artifact drop
Not being safe wherever you are at. Having to take extra measures to be prepared for a PK. That extra adrenaline of being attacked with an uninsured suit is something you only get on SP.
I can tell you that the spirit of siege certainly shouldn't be "go play somewhere else".
The bottom line for those wanting any significant change on Siege is this:
If GIL doesn't support it, it won't happen.
That is hard to read, but that is a fact.
While everyone else has come and gone, tried freeshards, broken into smaller guilds, switched back and forth to prodo, etc, GIL has remained together and become the largest (by a huge margin) playerbase.
If GIL has a problem with the EM, *poof*, new EM. If GIL has a problem with events, *poof*, different events. If GIL wants a town, *poof*, GIL gets a town.
Unless you can convince GIL that changes to the VvV system will benefit them, YOU WILL NEVER SEE THOSE CHANGES.
And that isn't going to change. To get a dissenting playerbase, you would have to attract a large number of outsiders while also getting the smaller non-GIL groups already here to agree.
GIL dominates the housing and trade on Siege more than any guild on any other shard. You past-PKers and wannabe-PVPers are not going to change that by asking on Stratics of all places for change.
Existing players on Siege who aren't GIL will never change that so long as the attitude is "if Siege is too hard for you go to another shard."
I love Siege. I love the ruleset more than any production shard by a country mile. I love a lot of the folks in this thread (including you Kelmo). But there is a reality to the shard that I see a lot of folks trying to deny. And it just isn't fun for me to play on GIL's personal server knowing no matter how many disparate solo players or small guilds I get together, I'll never get a change through if GIL doesn't want it.
That really sucks.
If GIL doesn't support it, it won't happen.
That is hard to read, but that is a fact.
While everyone else has come and gone, tried freeshards, broken into smaller guilds, switched back and forth to prodo, etc, GIL has remained together and become the largest (by a huge margin) playerbase.
If GIL has a problem with the EM, *poof*, new EM. If GIL has a problem with events, *poof*, different events. If GIL wants a town, *poof*, GIL gets a town.
Unless you can convince GIL that changes to the VvV system will benefit them, YOU WILL NEVER SEE THOSE CHANGES.
And that isn't going to change. To get a dissenting playerbase, you would have to attract a large number of outsiders while also getting the smaller non-GIL groups already here to agree.
GIL dominates the housing and trade on Siege more than any guild on any other shard. You past-PKers and wannabe-PVPers are not going to change that by asking on Stratics of all places for change.
Existing players on Siege who aren't GIL will never change that so long as the attitude is "if Siege is too hard for you go to another shard."
I love Siege. I love the ruleset more than any production shard by a country mile. I love a lot of the folks in this thread (including you Kelmo). But there is a reality to the shard that I see a lot of folks trying to deny. And it just isn't fun for me to play on GIL's personal server knowing no matter how many disparate solo players or small guilds I get together, I'll never get a change through if GIL doesn't want it.
That really sucks.
Back before AoS, you could PvP in a GM made suit. Sure there was some better stuff, but it was way easier to put a suit together.
Now if you loot all you kill, you can't just reuse the loot as the suits and weapons may not fit your template. It will still take a lot of time to put a new suit together even when you have boxes of player loot but each of the player looted will get hurt badly.
I can run in a crappy suit, but I can't PvP in it (yes I still sucks in good gear but I do better). It will be even worse for non PvP'ers who try to PvP, they will be in their PvM gear, not good for PvP and not of much use for you.
I know no looting do make shard get to safe and boring but heavy looting is bad too.
Some item are more useful than others and easier to replace, My quiver and Violet Courage are easy to sell if the looter can't use it him self and I can replace it or choose to use a normal quiver if I can't afford it . Much harder is, if I lose the rest of my suit, it cost me lots of time to replace as I both need resources, SoR is slow to get and I do not really love farming for essences and other imbuing mods.
If you looted expensive but easy to replace item, it won't be as bad as loot the whole suit, that may only fit that players template.
Do not punish young Siege players and new PvP'ers, weaker PvP'ers because a few old grumpy players do not want changes, do not kill our shard.
Also in old days, looting and reputation effected each others. If the killer disliked someone, he would heavy loot but if the killer respected his victim, maybe for trying to fight back, not crying, or in any other way did gain your respect, you would not loot him or loot less.
If all could use VvV artifact, more would show up in town to earn silver and you had 2 ways to get this item, from gaining silver and from killing someone using them. Most PvP'ers go VvV anyway and yes you may get a murderer count from killing blue to get their artifacts, but you can easy get blue again. Blue attacking VvV go become orange and they won't be safe in town.
Please consider this. Is it not better to get them useable for all than not get them at all?
kelmo
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I will rail against every effort to turn Siege into a clone of prodo type shards. We need to stay different not conform. I would rather not have any "PvP" system than one that makes it easy for people to just start playing. Earn it or go home.
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I agree with you
Its sad when you need to make up lies to have people agree with you.
Most Production Players don't use VVV or imbued items they use Farmed items for pvp
Most people who did just come back to ultima online like myself used faction arties till they got situated and was able to get into a position to start farming my own gear...
Not one person here is saying turn siege into a prodo shard. Siege is very different due to the pvp and no fell aspect, the x3 prices on everything, no recalling, 1 char per server no transferring on and off the server..
You are pretty much saying you do not want pvpers coming back to siege and if they implement VVV items it will ruin your game play..
I guess I'm not here to pk someone farming in a 30 fire luck suit.. Not the reason im here, Im looking to fight against other people who are trying to capture VVV towns for the same goal as I am, to stockpile points for mounts potions and items.
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I hate, and have always hated getting pked, or more accurately being disrupted by having someone try to pk me, but the above IS the correct answer, IMO. There is a big chain of effects that rely on this danger, and generally everyone benefits from it in the long run
There was a point in time where there was no GIL. Just like currently there is (potentially) no "insert your guild name here".
You can't blame GIL for this shards problems, or for sticking together, creating a community and being vocal about what they want. You can only do likewise, or accept the ride. *shrug*
There was no blame laid. I wasnt even criticizing GIL for being successful. They have done an awesome job as a guild. But no other group with even half the numbers has kept pace. That creates a significant imbalance here that you won't find on other shards. There is an inertia that a single party system generates in social dynamics that is textbook on display on Siege. You can do with that add you see fit, it is what it is. I chose to go elsewhere for a while, cause like Vic said, I need a break from Siege. Still do.
Edit: swype typos
Edit: swype typos
I really doubt such a change would cause a noticeable change in the the community, but...
Well no ****, I would like a system that promotes pvp and encourages pvpers to play the server. I have no problem farming, but I'm currnetly working my taming, working my imbuing so before I am able to get into shadowguard. I would like to know their is lesser effective equipment available for me to pvp.
I would like a system that promotes PvP, PvM, crafting and encourages PvP'ers, PvM'ers and crafter to play the server.
I do want more PvP'ers but I do not want to lose the crafters and PvM'ers we have now and I want it to be one community, that interact with each others.
Of course there is never going to be any faction pvp anymore we all know that. ( I could say DUH !! but I won't) I don't get how you or others think that having pvp items is going to make you better at pvping. Could it be you or others just think you will look awsome, and feel god like having a pvp items some won't have? I can't tell you what to do with your character you will have to decide yourself if was me I would keep character as is, and do the best I could do hunting monsters. ( farming makes me think afk if this is what you mean no don't change cuz all you will do is OoOOoo)
Ok so time for the Bo to chime. Get this straight Bo has always been for the pvp arties to be added to siege.
1. VvV items, sure one item really isnt overpowered, what is the ease to get them and than combining them with others. This allows for easier pvp templates, the sorta temps that prodo pvpers are used to. Being able to acquire them so easily is similar to handing out extra blessed items here on siege. That is what the non pvper is complaining bout. Yes the counter to that is that they have the same access just join VvV. Oh but than you are forcing people to play your game.
Neither side is right, but one side won the argument cause the items are not here.
Everyone will agree that if they bumped up loot, and crafter gear than made arti drop rate alot higher, the playing field would be equal or would it? You would get the people with millions here hoarding the gear like before.
The only true solution to this problem is INSURANCE. If no one lost there gear this wouldnt be an issue. You could wear whatever you choose and not have the fear of losing it. Give the arties to vvv players, farmers have there arties and they can wear them cause they would be blessed.
2. Feanaro or however you spell it, you claim you want more pvp here, than the minute a couple of pvpers join the shard you hop into there guild???? Wouldnt it have made more sense for you to try to make a group of your own so you would have someone to pvp against.
3. Why did number 2 happen? cause he knows that he cant beat them if he faces them outnumbered. than he would lose his gear. guess what he doesnt want to lose his gear. Bo cant tell you how many times Bo has seen people not pvp without a person or two behind them. Then when they die and get looted they arent heard from again for days, why cause it is a pancake to resuit on siege, and by resuit Bo means resuit to win.
1. VvV items, sure one item really isnt overpowered, what is the ease to get them and than combining them with others. This allows for easier pvp templates, the sorta temps that prodo pvpers are used to. Being able to acquire them so easily is similar to handing out extra blessed items here on siege. That is what the non pvper is complaining bout. Yes the counter to that is that they have the same access just join VvV. Oh but than you are forcing people to play your game.
Neither side is right, but one side won the argument cause the items are not here.
Everyone will agree that if they bumped up loot, and crafter gear than made arti drop rate alot higher, the playing field would be equal or would it? You would get the people with millions here hoarding the gear like before.
The only true solution to this problem is INSURANCE. If no one lost there gear this wouldnt be an issue. You could wear whatever you choose and not have the fear of losing it. Give the arties to vvv players, farmers have there arties and they can wear them cause they would be blessed.
2. Feanaro or however you spell it, you claim you want more pvp here, than the minute a couple of pvpers join the shard you hop into there guild???? Wouldnt it have made more sense for you to try to make a group of your own so you would have someone to pvp against.
3. Why did number 2 happen? cause he knows that he cant beat them if he faces them outnumbered. than he would lose his gear. guess what he doesnt want to lose his gear. Bo cant tell you how many times Bo has seen people not pvp without a person or two behind them. Then when they die and get looted they arent heard from again for days, why cause it is a pancake to resuit on siege, and by resuit Bo means resuit to win.
i think i love you
Blanket insurance would cause too much trouble, and more or less un-siegeify siege, but I think making the VvV fight zones like the old champ spawn dungeons (dying just kicked you from the area, and you kept all your uncursed stuff) used to be wouldn't be a terrible idea.
What I find funny is the pvper are just asking for basic items to make quality suits, but the PVMers are asking for more legendary drops.????? LOL who is asking for stuff now.. that fixes nothing, as I said I will be fine farming shadowguard soon. however the rest of Ultima online who wishes to play siege is at a huge disadvantage if they want to come over here to pvp.
I will bring this topic up every single week until a Dev gets back to me on the issue.
I will bring this topic up every single week until a Dev gets back to me on the issue.
I just don't understand why people are still upset about them. Guys, we understand that faciton players had "superman" suits (as you all called them, but now you all have similar or better suits anyways), but that is no longer the case with BUFFED LOOT, and IMBUING. Refute that I DARE you.
Why can you not let this go? Please explain to me, realistically, how this would ruin your gameplay? Please be honest. I, and A LOT of others, suspect it's because you don't want players with a "PvP mentality" playing here, disrupting your gameplay, killing you and hunting you down, taking your stuff, and being a bad guy.
TOTALLY NATURAL
But denying players VvV, as advertised, is just not the right thing to do, on the ONLY shard that doesn't have trammel. (by the way, fun fact, *most* players farm VvV for novas, horses, pardons, and wearable gear, not freaking DECO)
Why can you not let this go? Please explain to me, realistically, how this would ruin your gameplay? Please be honest. I, and A LOT of others, suspect it's because you don't want players with a "PvP mentality" playing here, disrupting your gameplay, killing you and hunting you down, taking your stuff, and being a bad guy.
TOTALLY NATURAL
But denying players VvV, as advertised, is just not the right thing to do, on the ONLY shard that doesn't have trammel. (by the way, fun fact, *most* players farm VvV for novas, horses, pardons, and wearable gear, not freaking DECO)
Bo you can't run prodo style templates without insurance. I would never base my Siege template off of +skill items like I do on literally every prodo PvP suit. +120 skill on my mystic parry mage, +80 skill on my mystic DP scribe mage, +50 skill on my nerve strike death strike char, +35 skill on my archer, etc...
I have to literally run like, 6x 120 on siege because I can't depend on a suit. I also can't base my stats off of my suit, so I have to run real base stats which is also prohibitive. Like, you can't run a proper healing parry mage on siege. VvV arties would not make this possible, by the way. All it would do is make some disarmable mages pop up (hint hint run disarm) due to crystalline/orny.
VvV wearables, literally, can be excluded completely by having a properly imbued suit. News flash, new PvPers (1 char slot, guys), can't do that. Like, how hard is this to understand? These focus group guys got the one thing (which they knew was the *one* thing) that could keep prodo-style PvPers from sticking around on Siege, removed. They want their own shard.
Disgusting.
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kelmo
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I get it now... you PKers all want cheap easy stuff to compete with the folks that play here full time. You did not ask the community of Siege, You go strait to the Dev team and tell them they got it wrong. You are telling the very Dev team that decided to not add vending machine artifacts to a unique server that they made a poor choice.
Demanding it in fact. That is one way to try and get positive attention.I do not think it will be effective. I never had much sympathy for screaming kids in a market that want what ever catches their eye.
I will stand by a statement I made over a decade ago. Siege is a shard that if anyone that tries, can make a mark. You can be important, heinous, respected, reviled or what ever the hell you want to be. But do not come weak.
Gil Nation is magnificent. When PKer I just want to PK people and grief nation happens, let me know.
If you dudes just want to come here and kill folks... You best stick to prodo shards. We consider we every fight we get away from and keep our gear a win. We know it is Siege, we play here.
There are no more sheep here. We are smart and every escape is a win.
Demanding it in fact. That is one way to try and get positive attention.I do not think it will be effective. I never had much sympathy for screaming kids in a market that want what ever catches their eye.
I will stand by a statement I made over a decade ago. Siege is a shard that if anyone that tries, can make a mark. You can be important, heinous, respected, reviled or what ever the hell you want to be. But do not come weak.
Gil Nation is magnificent. When PKer I just want to PK people and grief nation happens, let me know.
If you dudes just want to come here and kill folks... You best stick to prodo shards. We consider we every fight we get away from and keep our gear a win. We know it is Siege, we play here.
There are no more sheep here. We are smart and every escape is a win.