"Good Guys" are they a dying breed of RPvPr?

[Guest]

I see two problems, really. No, 'problems' isn't the right word. Maybe 'occurances'?

Firstly, and I'm afraid this is going to sound horribly elitist, ALL of the 'computer community' has changed from what it used to be.

Once upon a time, only the 'intellectuals' and the 'well off' could afford computers, and an internet connection was a luxury. That wasn't THAT long ago.
As a result, many of the people online were the creative sort.
Roleplay came easier to them than PvP did. So did applying 'the Queen's rules' when fighting.
I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing - it just was, in my own experience, both on BBS's, and early online multi-player dungeons. There was almost an urge in many to share what they had learned, and help others achieve what they had achieved.

Now, internet connections and computers are much easier to come by, so the rest of society has arrived. It's no longer the exclusive domain of those who could share jokes in binary, or would be able to help you with a weird programming problem inbetween monsters. Again, not necesarily good or bad - it just is. Along with those who can solve massive equations in their heads, and whip up roleplay scenarios between meals, we have those who will be online within seconds of buying a new Playstation game, searching for the cheat codes. Plus, we now have 12 year olds online alongside people of 60 or more.

Secondly, and more UO-related, roleplay takes effort. Being nice shouldn't take effort, but when you're surrounded by jerks all the time, it does. When you find that you are regulaly ambushed by the 'win at all costs' brigade, and not only dry-looted, but trash talked, EVERY time you encounter those people, it takes a massive effort to stay above their level. Then, roleplaying AND fighting at the same time, without resorting to pre-recorded macros, takes a lot of effort - at least, if you plan to win any fights, it does. Plus, when you're evil, people expect you to be evil. In a way, their constant criticism and abuse HELPS you to be evil. Negativity breeds negativity. On the other hand, it's rare to find someone helping another person to be good. One slip up, and that's all everyone focuses on, regardless of what has gone before or comes after. So, the good guys are 'helped' to become less good, and the bad guys are helped to become badder.

Just my 2gp. I plan to carry on being a good guy. I plan to carry on with the roleplay. Plans have a horrible way of going wrong, but, that's the plan.

 

[Guest]

*bows* Well said, my friend, well said.

 

[Spree]

Why do you say Lord Britain is good guy? Did he not abandon the citizens of Britannia at first sight of Modain. I say Lord British is a coward.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I have a lot of respect for Rykus, Py, Sio, and Grot.

However, IMHO, a lot of what you guys call RP is just good manners.

I have a feeling that there were people who gloated, and made asses of
themselves as far back in history as you'd like to go.

Roleplaying (to me)= playing a role.

Take the WAKA war for instance....

It was much more important to combat the tyrants at all costs than it was to
lay down a lot of rules. It's WHAT you do at that point that is crucial, not HOW
you do it. ACTION! Play your role!

Some people seem to think a script is needed... but with so many different people
providing input... it was just time to group up with all the opposition, and have
some fun. But no.... it had to be some kind of big serious deal. And WAKA had
to be badmouthed... even though they were providing one of the best opportunities
for RPrs on Siege to interact that I have ever seen; a powerful enemy who's
willing to fight on RPr's terms. But some people felt it was neccessary to swing
back into the classic RPr's most powerful defense... name calling and whining.

You can be consistantly boring and exclusive, or consistantly creative and accepting.
The latter sounds MUCH more fun to me. The former sounds like nothing I want
to log in to.

Cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't involved at the time, I returned to Siege on the tail-end of it, so I cannot speak about that Waka thing very much. Its a shame that nobody was prepared to deal with it in a way that would have created a wave to ride, but again, I can't say much about it - hell my guild was almost completely defunct at that time. Only a few were still around.

I think when you say RP = good manners, you are confusing two things.

When the orcs would come all the way to Wintermoor to attack, I had no need of any of their loot, I have stockhouses full to the top with stuff. I have no need to send them walking as ghosts to Luna... so if you want to call it an unwritten ROE or a code of honor or a double standard - when the Orcs attack Knights, it is for the enjoyment of the Knights as well as the Orcs. We would often get off our horses to even the advantage. The difference between a bunch of guys who are cool IRL out to create fun for themselves and others and your run of the mill gang of punk kids out to cause grief is a vast. Why would I go out of my way to help the punks who would make me walk all the way to Luna? I would likely res them to show them how other people act, but it is a half-pity thing, hoping they will evolve from acting like selfish morons, rather than a pat on the back thing.

So, am I courteous to the Orcs in the same way they would be courteous to me? It has little really to do with RP, its just that by the fact that they RP, I understand their minds, like a sort of badge that says that they are intelligent, social people who aren't IRL arseholes out to ruin my day, but that they are cool guys out to make it more fun.

An elitist view of roleplaying is a separate thing. If someone does not pretend to roleplay, I can work around them without breaking my own, because I have devised ways to deal with non-roleplayers that does not affect my own style. I can remain consistent in any company.

Doing whatever is required to defeat the enemy, this I disagree with. I have some ROE, and I stick to it - and there are many reasons for it. I refuse to use pets in battle, nor will I use the guards or any aid that would be unknightly. So, those following my ROE would be subject to any tamers out there sending beetles in over and over and over. Its not a situation that would be fun for long.

One other point - KSS does not war for the sake of war. There are people who are criminals and there are people who are not criminals. If you attack or steal from non-criminals, that makes you a criminal. If criminals attack criminals, well let evil fight evil, I say, makes my job easier.

I don't recruit based on PvP skill, I recruit based on personal character both IRL and IG. So, if anyone in my camp did ever pancake about ROE, it was a slip - because people are human, and that sometimes happens - but I think you would agree rarely in KSS.

 

[Dor of Sonoma]

<blockquote><hr>

Take the WAKA war for instance....

It was much more important to combat the tyrants at all costs than it was to
lay down a lot of rules. It's WHAT you do at that point that is crucial, not HOW
you do it. ACTION! Play your role!

Some people seem to think a script is needed... but with so many different people
providing input... it was just time to group up with all the opposition, and have
some fun. But no.... it had to be some kind of big serious deal. And WAKA had
to be badmouthed... even though they were providing one of the best opportunities
for RPrs on Siege to interact that I have ever seen; a powerful enemy who's
willing to fight on RPr's terms. But some people felt it was neccessary to swing
back into the classic RPr's most powerful defense... name calling and whining.

[/ QUOTE ]
Amen to that, Ginsu

I was so excited and enthusiastic about the opportunity thus provided by WAKA...and so very disappointed by some of the, uhh...downright juvenile pettiness and disagreeable personality traits displayed by some of the 'good guys' in the process.

I fervently hope that Yasou gives it a go again, sometime. It was a magnificent idea and wonderful fun, for this one anyway.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Outside of the White Council... what groups are strictly made up of 'good guys'?

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ ... the WC are clearly bad guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Har, your Wakamanian moral compass is oriented to the orient, my friend, that is... it points to the South Pole. Here in the west, we know our Yings from our Yangs! *grin*

 

[Ginsu-SP]

<blockquote><hr>

I think when you say RP = good manners, you are confusing two things.

When the orcs would come all the way to Wintermoor to attack, I had no need of any of their loot, I have stockhouses full to the top with stuff. I have no need to send them walking as ghosts to Luna... so if you want to call it an unwritten ROE or a code of honor or a double standard - when the Orcs attack Knights, it is for the enjoyment of the Knights as well as the Orcs. We would often get off our horses to even the advantage. The difference between a bunch of guys who are cool IRL out to create fun for themselves and others and your run of the mill gang of punk kids out to cause grief is a vast. Why would I go out of my way to help the punks who would make me walk all the way to Luna? I would likely res them to show them how other people act, but it is a half-pity thing, hoping they will evolve from acting like selfish morons, rather than a pat on the back thing.

So, am I courteous to the Orcs in the same way they would be courteous to me? It has little really to do with RP, its just that by the fact that they RP, I understand their minds, like a sort of badge that says that they are intelligent, social people who aren't IRL arseholes out to ruin my day, but that they are cool guys out to make it more fun.

An elitist view of roleplaying is a separate thing. If someone does not pretend to roleplay, I can work around them without breaking my own, because I have devised ways to deal with non-roleplayers that does not affect my own style. I can remain consistent in any company.

Doing whatever is required to defeat the enemy, this I disagree with. I have some ROE, and I stick to it - and there are many reasons for it. I refuse to use pets in battle, nor will I use the guards or any aid that would be unknightly. So, those following my ROE would be subject to any tamers out there sending beetles in over and over and over. Its not a situation that would be fun for long.

One other point - KSS does not war for the sake of war. There are people who are criminals and there are people who are not criminals. If you attack or steal from non-criminals, that makes you a criminal. If criminals attack criminals, well let evil fight evil, I say, makes my job easier.

I don't recruit based on PvP skill, I recruit based on personal character both IRL and IG. So, if anyone in my camp did ever pancake about ROE, it was a slip - because people are human, and that sometimes happens - but I think you would agree rarely in KSS.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't really say "RP=good manners".... I said "A lot of what you guys call RP
is just good manners."

I don't understand your need to know your enemies IRL. This, I suppose, gets to
the crux of what I don't care for. The arranged, cozy feeling with the enemy.
It is very unrealistic, and ruins the fun for me. I was around for some of those
KSS fights with Orc and UND... and I have never fought more boring battles, or
been accused of more mischief than in those fights. In fact I was constantly
attacked in town by one of those guilds because I was accused of looting one
of them in a "battle". Months of dryloots for a looting I didn't even commit.

There seems to just be an air of seriousness around the RP guilds on Siege that
sucks the fun right out of everything. What difference does it make if your opponent
is a hot-headed jerk? Just kill them, or get killed and go somewhere else.

I suppose the difference here is you guys expect a cordiality among fellow RPrs,
even your enemies. I expect to get drylooted everytime I die, and am pleasantly
surpised when I'm not.... if I return to my corpse that is. Another difference is...
you depend on enemies for interaction... when all I want to see is "OoOOO OoOO!"
That's a lot simpler ROE IMO.

The elitist attitude comes with the insecurity of not being the biggest deal on the
shard. It has reared it's ugliest head against WAKA and A/B. Big guilds coming to
Siege... they must all be cheaters, and hackers, and punks! OH MY!

Cheers!

 

[Guest]

--I don't understand your need to know your enemies IRL. This, I suppose, gets to the crux of what I don't care for. The arranged, cozy feeling with the enemy. It is very unrealistic, and ruins the fun for me.

I don't see it that way, a fight is a fight is a fight - what gets me more interested is the context of the fight - the WHY of the fight. Fighting for the sake of fighting gets really old, and there are far better games to do that in. If I want raw aggression, and I am so good at Unreal Tournament it is just stupid, thats what I do. I blow the hell out of people before they even know whats going on, and I get all my leftover adolescent yayas out there. To get it from UO without being one of those 'win at all costs guys' is pointless. I'd much rather use UO as a canvas for my rp painting.

--I was around for some of those KSS fights with Orc and UND... and I have never fought more boring battles, or been accused of more mischief than in those fights. In fact I was constantly attacked in town by one of those guilds because I was accused of looting one of them in a "battle". Months of dryloots for a looting I didn't even commit.

Maybe I'm immune to these things, it always seems to be someone else who has the problem with it. I think the problem is that you cannot count on other people to be always consistent, and there are always hotheads. Personally, I don't give a damn about looting or not looting, only because of the whining. However, I myself disarm loot only and keep the guild that way because it is my way, and it keeps the ranks free of people who PvP for gain. They can go join another guild if thats their thing. Certainly the orcs were not consistent 100% of the time, and neither UND, but for the most part, they were. Maybe I'm immune, but I refuse to get into arguments about it, though I admit, I often had to deal with guildmates who became embroiled in such discussions. I try to nix any such discussions by having restock houses. You die, you are looted, go get more, who bloody cares - so long as you stay above the lowest common denominator - do not become what you fight.

--There seems to just be an air of seriousness around the RP guilds on Siege that sucks the fun right out of everything. What difference does it make if your opponent is a hot-headed jerk? Just kill them, or get killed and go somewhere else.

I do...

--I suppose the difference here is you guys expect a cordiality among fellow RPrs, even your enemies. I expect to get drylooted everytime I die, and am pleasantly surpised when I'm not.... if I return to my corpse that is. Another difference is... you depend on enemies for interaction... when all I want to see is "OoOOO OoOO!"

Well, I enjoy something more cerebral than just OOooOOOoO! I miss the days of the quests, and orc events, exchanges on patrols... but if all you get are dewds to interact with, then hell yeah, I'd rather fight than hear them talk!

--The elitist attitude comes with the insecurity of not being the biggest deal on the shard.

Does it really? Ginsu, you've got a hell of a big axe to grind, but it seems you have a dagger already sharpened.

--It has reared it's ugliest head against WAKA and A/B. Big guilds coming to
Siege... they must all be cheaters, and hackers, and punks! OH MY!

Many AB were punks... cheaters? I can't say for sure

If Waka has cheaters, I never saw anything with my own eyes to make me believe it. Besides, I can't see Yasou allowing members to tarnish his name by association.

 

[Rykus]

<blockquote><hr>

I have a lot of respect for Rykus, Py, Sio, and Grot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Likewise, but it doesn't mean we can't disagree peacefully and respectfully..

<blockquote><hr>

However, IMHO, a lot of what you guys call RP is just good manners.

I have a feeling that there were people who gloated, and made asses of
themselves as far back in history as you'd like to go.

Roleplaying (to me)= playing a role.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see how our perspectives are incongruous on this. Role-playing is indeed playing a role. However playing that role one minute and not the next is not role-playing. If I only did my job 20% of the time, or when I was around other IT professionals, I could hardly call myself an IT professional, I could however call myself unemployed.

I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with people gloating and being asses when done in the context of the role being played, I used to know several Orcs who excelled at this and brought alot of entertainment to the encounters. Explain to me how one can play a role set in a medieval backdrop whilst spewing things known only to people in this century. This is why those who take RP seriously WILL NOT refer to in-game mechanics. How could an Orc or Knight in these olden days know anything about computers, pwnage, modern day curse words, or anything else we as the humans behind the keyboards knows? Please think on that and give a reply. I have been called an elitist RP'er too many times for this belief, but I have yet to hear anything remotely logical that justifies these behaviors as RP in a medieval context. I can see how these actions would fly in a game like CoH, but c'mon, not in UO...

<blockquote><hr>

Some people seem to think a script is needed...

But some people felt it was neccessary to swing
back into the classic RPr's most powerful defense... name calling and whining.

You can be consistantly boring and exclusive, or consistantly creative and accepting.
The latter sounds MUCH more fun to me. The former sounds like nothing I want
to log in to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hear about the name calling and whining, I must not have lurked any while that was occurring, so on that I have no comment other than this. Please do not lump every RP'er in one group based on this assertion. It isn't fair nor is it accurate.

I do agree that the latter you describe is certainly MUCH more fun, but there is a balance to be had also. I despise a canned or scripted RP event, unless it is something that SHOULD be scripted, like a ceremony, but those are few and far between. I am not a 'by the script' RP'er, nor are many of the people I consider RP'ers on Siege. I did see a good bit of this on Catskills and it made me sick to see it or be part of it.

Py made some very good points about your 'confusion' (lack of better terms) with RP and good manners, so I won't elaborate on that.


Py Lethius said:
<blockquote><hr>


Doing whatever is required to defeat the enemy, this I disagree with. I have some ROE, and I stick to it - and there are many reasons for it. I refuse to use pets in battle, nor will I use the guards or any aid that would be unknightly. So, those following my ROE would be subject to any tamers out there sending beetles in over and over and over. Its not a situation that would be fun for long.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me think about a few things. I have seen countless threads that have absolutely nothing to do with RP that bring this up. How many hundreds or perhaps a thousand or more threads on just the Siege forum have to do with one group of non-RP'ers calling another groups of like-minded players GIMP or some other term to define this exact kind of behavior Py describes. I recall terms like 'all-skill' tamers, and many different cute names for the people who use exploits for advantages, and let's not forget about all those 'elven machine-guns'. It's funny how the 'elitist' RP'ers don't seem to have these problems amongst themselves because they know about and practice a simple (well to most of us) thing - respect. You could also call it honor among enemies, or maybe just courtesy. In any case, RP'ers generally play the game to have fun, and to extend that enjoyment to those who play with them as either friend or foe.

If those kinds of things make me an elitist, then I wear that badge proudly and prominently, whether it is in UO, or any other world my toons tread.

 

[Grot]

<blockquote><hr>

Morning Ginsu,

You got me going with that post, I had to reply

I'd like to clarify the categories, as I see them, by what you refer to 'good' and 'evil'. I see four categories.

Good - roleplayers who roleplay the good guys (KSS)
Evil - roleplayers who roleplay the bad guys (Orc.)
PKs - (blue or red) non-roleplayers who generally play aggressively or antagonistically (OTF)
Blues - non-roleplayers who generally play a passive or pacifistic game (DTA)

To support my own roleplay, I simply convert the PKs into 'evil' afflicted with madness (The Tongue of Discord) since they speak in gibberish (OOC and swearing), and convert the non-aggressive 'Blues' to neutral 'citizens' - so long as they don't commit crimes, they retain a neutral status.

Why should a non-roleplaying aggressive type want to play a 'good guy'? If the desire for good does not come from within the personality of the player, then playing 'good' would only seem like a restriction on their actions, a set of 'rules'. If the desire to do good comes from the personality of the player, then it is a natural thing, and it is equally natural to despise acts of 'evil' on those who are 'good' or 'neutral'.

Roleplaying is a way of playing to benefit others. You have to first have the desire to benefit others.

So, in OOC terms, I classify 'good' as altruistic behaviour, and 'evil' as negative, aggressive, selfish behaviour. Not at all the same thing as rp good and evil. Ingame, I might not attack someone whose OOC actions I find repulsive, though I might certainly want them to commit a crime so I can attack them ingame, my character's roleplay will not allow it. Similarly, I have had many many friends roleplaying evil ingame, but my character would not stay his hand just to spare them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I quote Py, because I agree with the categorizations he posted, and I agree that roleplay is playing to benefit others.

The latter, I believe, is the primary reason most roleplayers in the past have tried to work out RoEs. Or in the absence of the ability to do that, enforce rules upon themselves hoping that others would follow suit. Some things, like loot and reskilling are almost always a part of those (attempted) agreements. The reason being is simple. If your goal is to make fun for others, thereby making fun for yourself, the fun lies in the why. The how. It doesn't lie in the what. Why did you fight? How did the conflict start? When a person is looted, it becomes a matter of 'what did I get from the fight. In doing that, now you have the issue of the enemy losing something. The loss may be great. Therefore the encounter has soured.

In a truly mutual role play encounter, you shouldn't be worried about the what. The purpose of RoEs is to take that worry away. Yes, in a truly mutual RP community, it shouldn't be necessary. But there are always new joins to the guilds. There is always outside interference. The true essence of the RoE is not 100% compliance with it. It is the spirit of being willing to take the step and agree to one. To be willing to work with your 'enemy' behind the scenes and at some level agree to what will make the encounters sour. And then attempting to not do so.

Without a firm agreement, there is always someone who gets upset at dying. There is always someone who is looted of something they didn't expect to loot. There is always someone attacked in a place they didnt feel they should be attacked. No matter how much they say they don't care about being looted or being killed, EVERYONE has a catalyst that upsets them. Some don't let it out openly, some do. But everyone gets upset. In doing so, the encounter is soured. Therefore the fun isn't mutual. Therefore the spirit of the RP is lost.

How in depth the agreement goes is entirely up to the partys involved. Again, it's all a matter of trying to make that agreement and working to uphold it.

Reading all the reasons posted here as to why there is no RP, I believe almost all of them are right. One stands out most for me though. That is the lack of people willing to truly roleplay the bad guy, while trying to make fun for their enemies. The orcs and undead did a great job of doing so. DT did a fair job. VMP even once did a good job. LICH tried, but sadly never had a huge presence. I think the best in the history of the Shard were the Ta'Kier back in the hero/evil days. But who now plays evil and makes an honest effort to make fun for their enemies. By fun, I mean mutual enjoyment, where you can talk to each other over ICQ or the like and say: That was a blast!

The event with Waka had promise, but not all of them partook in the spirit of fun for all. They self proclaim that they are only looking to make fun for themselves. That just doesn't work. When something isn't fun for a person, they're prone to respond in kind, or leave. Neither of which promotes further interaction. We had fun fights, but we also had fights that weren't fun. Maybe we didn't always respond in the best manner, but what do you expect. We're human. It takes two sides cooperating to make the best fun for all.

If there are no bad guys to RP with, what incentive is there for the good guys? Altruism only goes so far, when you're spit in the face at every turn. When any event even remotely RP'd is raided and griefed by those who only think of their own fun/profit. What incentive is there to carry on a conversation with someone, only to have 3 of their friends pop out of hiding, kill you, loot you and walk off laughing and bragging about the kill?

Regarding the question as to why people are afraid to war. I'll answer for myself and myself alone. I'm not 'afraid' to war. I'm not afraid to fight. The reason I don't often wish to war is because those who would want to war don't want to do so to make mutual fun, they want to do so for their own profit and fun. If someone wants to war me just so they can find more places to kill me and take my loot, they can wait in line. If they truly just want to kill me, I can be found outside of town far more often than inside it. Kill me, take the count, go red if you will and accept any consequences of such. If someone wants to war me so that we can have enjoyable fights, I'm happy to talk. See above for that that means though.

I'm not all knowing by any means though. I don't have an answer to how to fix the current situation. Like most posting here, I'm also frustated with the lack of RP. I do know that I'm willing to talk with and work with any guild or group willing to try to work out differences. I can try to help you understand, and work with you towards something more fun for both sides, but the guild would need to be willing to work towards that mutual fun, and commit to any agreements made to such. If you don't feel you can work with me, try talking to others in the community. Though ALL have slipped from true RP to some extent or another, I believe ALL are wishing RP would come back.

I do know that if nothing changes somehow, a thread in this same spirit will appear again in a year or so...and the year after that, and the year after that... The only way it'll change though is through work.

 

[Qu'Rah]

Ug der

Lat make big dudu, Uruk iz guud folk. KSS iz *spits* nites in shiny armur Har har... panzee boyz.

Whoaaa... cidur... guud...

*falls asleep again*

 

[Grot]

<blockquote><hr>

I have to agree, and its a damned shame that it was a lost opportunity. Yasou did a fantastic job, and unfortunately we weren't able to effectively reciprocate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The previous opportunity was attempted. It failed because there were people involved that were only looking out for their own fun.

That doesn't mean the opportunity is lost. There is such a thing as talk, even amongst enemies. The only lost opportunity is when those enemies aren't willing to talk. I can speak for myself: I am. Are others? Between the WC and Waka leaders, there is a place. All it takes is a post. For that matter, all it takes is a PM or ICQ.

My first thought in the past was to work out a RoE. For the present, I'm willing to start with a mutual understanding. In the past, we didn't even have that.

 

[Apollyon]

While I understand the points that you're making, I have to disagree. It's Siege Perilous. No one here should be so attached to their "stuff" that losing it would take them to the brink of despair. Now, that being said, have I muttered a few expletives over getting wacked and looted? Sure. I'm not a Tier One PvPer. I never will be. But I DO enjoy the challenge and thrill of battle. UO combat is a very fluid dynamic (I think John Travolta said that). Many many differnet scenarios can unfold. Too many rules stife that "feeling".

 

[Grot]

<blockquote><hr>

While I understand the points that you're making, I have to disagree. It's Siege Perilous. No one here should be so attached to their "stuff" that losing it would take them to the brink of despair. Now, that being said, have I muttered a few expletives over getting wacked and looted? Sure. I'm not a Tier One PvPer. I never will be. But I DO enjoy the challenge and thrill of battle. UO combat is a very fluid dynamic (I think John Travolta said that). Many many differnet scenarios can unfold. Too many rules stife that "feeling".

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say anything about taking one to the brink of despair. I also like the thrill of battle. But battle for a reason. The more creative the reason, the more fun the battle. Battle for loot falls to the bottom of the creativity scale. That can be found anywhere. Taking loot out of the picture and you're challenged to think of another reason.

My main intent was just to show that loot is often an issue. I'm also trying to say that two sides can agree to loot. If it's an agreement, then its fine. The point being that the sides should strive to come to that agreement one way or the other in the spirit of making fun for both sides. When there are different expectations on both sides, therein lies the strife.

Consider this though: Every person who says they expect to be looted almost always qualifies it with something like: "but I'm pleasently surprised if I come back to things on my corpse" In the spirit of fun for all, wouldn't you rather an enemy be pleasently surprised than muttering explatives? Which case do you feel would make them more likely to treat you in a manner that makes you "pleasently surprised" in the next encounter? What would further contribute to mutual fun?

 

[Sloan]

I'll just keep quiet and assume my week of silence now.

 

[Ginsu-SP]

<blockquote><hr>

Ginsu, you've got a hell of a big axe to grind, but it seems you have a dagger already sharpened.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no dagger brother.

I just wish things were a bit more fun in UO. The fun has nothing to do with
mechanics, but everything to do with making things fun for each other. You
mentioned that... and I totally agree with it.

Cheers!

 

[Apollyon]

No, you did not use the term "brink of despair". My embellishment. I thought that the RP storylines being spun from SO many sources was the reason for battle. I enjoyed reading each installment as events played out on the field. Frankly, I never thought that it became "battle for loot". But looting IS a part of battle...tactically and for good RP. It adds spice and excitement to each engagement. The element of risk is the sauce for the goose.

And I have been pleasantly surprised by the most unlikely suspects....but I still expect to be looted every time.....

Maybe it just comes down to sportsmanship...but sportmanship is very difficult to enforce....

 

[Grot]

Oh, speak your mind. Everyone's human, everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes it takes someone else to point em out before they can change. I'm as human as the next guy.

 

[imported_Bo Bo]

Bo doesnt need a storyline to kill, Bo doesnt need your loot either. Bo kills you, because Bo likes to kill. Bo likes the thrill of the hunt, fighting monsters is boring and easy. Bo thinks Grot makes too many excuses on why not to fight. Bo knows you have no idea what the word "war" means.

 

[Grot]

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe it just comes down to sportsmanship...but sportmanship is very difficult to enforce....

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. So what are the options? Show it on your side and hope the enemy changes to match? That can work, but at what point, when they keep taking avantage of you, do you break down and recripocrate....or just leave the situation. Everyone has a breaking point. Again, neither option promotes further fun interaction.

Hence the historical attempts by RPers at RoEs and such. Hence my arguement that there needs to be, at a minium, an understanding and the willingness to try to make it work. Without it, there is just bloody battle. Possibly fun for the winner, probably not fun for the loser.

 

[Qu'Rah]

<blockquote><hr>

Everyone's human, (...)

[/ QUOTE ]

*sneezes* FLOARWLUBBVRRR

Lat jest call uz oomie? Uz nub make miztake, uz intend tu du wrongly.

 

[Grot]

Ukee, eberyash am humanoid. Deeb duwn lat am da same. Lat juszd hab lutz ob layerz of fat agh stink tu hidee id.

 

[Qu'Rah]

Whoaah!

*squeezes layers of fat*

Meeb iz sciantificanish Uruk! Meeb investionganate

 

[Grot]

*hands the orc a dagger*

Her am ash igg. Mebbe id wull helb lat kud sum ob da fat awai. Me habbi tu helb in da entrest ob grukin.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I just wish things were a bit more fun in UO.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's the key to the problem. We need to drum up some fun.

I will do my small part - whether I am done training or not, whether I have 6 knights or none, I will patrol every night I am able, as we did in the old days.

 

[Qu'Rah]

Hmmm.... oomie wiv igg... nub feel guud fer uruk...
Will aks warboss... wuz cross wiv meeb poor gruntee las time meeb blah tu oomie. Hurt meeb bad.

Lub me fat! No cut id... nub eben fer grukin!

 

[Spree]

Where do the Orkies hide? I have been to the fort 3 times and no orkies.

When i find them im going to give them all a big hug because they so cute.

 

[Fidessa]

<blockquote><hr>

I think that part of the problem lies in the definition of "good guys". If you ask many of the leaders of the guilds that you consider "bad", they'll tell you that they ARE the good guys. Their perception of themselves and others differs from yours.

It's also true that many guilds are fairly diverse. Within their ranks they'll have farmers and serial killers....thieves and knights....the noble and the profane. That further clouds the overall perception of a guild and it's members. It all depends on which side of the fence that you're standing on....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true and said well. If it was up to me this would be repeated over and over again.



______________________
God has no religion

 

[Guest]

So an inquring mind (possibly 2 inquiring minds) would like to know the general consenus of Dola
First
Good
Bad or
Completly off her rocker

Second
RP
Non-Rper
Somewhere in between (if that is possible)


Dola now returns the post to its normal bantering
*dodges from mud and snow balls*

 

[Grot]

I know for a fact she's off her rocker. She happens to be in her computer chair. *blows dust off the rocker*

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I just wish things were a bit more fun in UO. The fun has nothing to do with mechanics, but everything to do with making things fun for each other. You
mentioned that... and I totally agree with it.

Cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

From my own experiences on the Baja Shard (and during some breif periods in a few other games), the funnest roleplay and interaction occured when various roleplay guilds were able to come togeather and interact on an open and meaningful level. This included wars, alliances, trade agreements, territorial disputes, kidnappings, murder mysteries, and so fourth. Roleplay would peak on the shard when these guilds were able to get these events going, and were able to keep them rolling. Whereas when the plague broke out in the Kingdom of Dawn resulting from the machinations from local Necromancers and Drow, or The Shadow Imperium sought to subdue the Druidic Village of Ravenshire to the north, you saw people roleplaying and fighting all the time. When there werent any events, you didn't see people logging in, because it was just the same ole' grind.

Now Siege is a bit different, as there is much more you can do in a completely non-consensual PvP enviroment, but I think the idea still works the same. It was reading the thread on the WAKA War back in April that enticed me to come to Siege.

As far as your original question as to whether or not the Good Guys have gone out of Style? I do not think so, atleast not after looking at other shards and my experiences in other games. On alot of other shards, you see alot of guilds made up of evil-undead-demon-vampire-dragonkin-who-are-blessed-by-the-Guardian people. Siege on the other hand has Chivalrous Knights (KSS), it had normal villagefolk living all too close to danger (CWS), and other groups that play more good-guy types. You also get a mix of the traditional Orcs (Gouged Eye Tribe) and the Savages (U'wah). Its pretty balanced.

 

[Wulf2k]

<blockquote><hr>

I will do my small part - whether I am done training or not, whether I have 6 knights or none, I will patrol every night I am able, as we did in the old days.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're ever alone against the forces of evil, feel free to get in touch with me. If anybody asks, I'll say I'm a Crusader of Caring. Anybody that forces the issue, I'll show them I really do care by hugging them tightly around the throat until their complaints wind down to gurgles and sputters.

Before you say no due to my.... "tendencies" for chaos, realize how well the virtues can serve chaos, and thus how our two paths could be the same for a while. Spreading the teachings of Humility, who isn't more humble when lying naked in a field? Why is there no Justice for the herds of great harts slaughtered every day? I won't even get into the chaos to be had through Sacrifice.

*has an epiphany*

Chaos is Order! Order is Chaos! Up is down, black is white, blue is red! Cats and dogs living in harmony! The end times are nigh! Sosaria must be cleansed through baths of fire and blood!

*grabs his dagger and runs off cackling maniacally*

 

[HalfDead]

<blockquote><hr>

People who say they role-play evil, but are really just griefer PKs (a valid playstyle that I am fine with), are NOT role-players and are not fooling anyone by saying they are, any more than Cheapsuit is fooling anyone into believeing he is an uber pvp'er by killing crafters.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cut me real deep just now, Rykus. *giggles*

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe it just comes down to sportsmanship...but sportmanship is very difficult to enforce....

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. So what are the options? Show it on your side and hope the enemy changes to match? That can work, but at what point, when they keep taking avantage of you, do you break down and recripocrate....or just leave the situation. Everyone has a breaking point. Again, neither option promotes further fun interaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sportsmanship is all but gone from this shard.

Nowadays dry looting and having your armor cut up is the norm.
I remember when I first came here, I was rarely dry looted (even when ganked by VmP) and if they did loot heavily, they usually left one of each gate reg or a gate scroll on my corpse. Now of course I am talking about being PK'd, not field fighting... as I am not a PvPer.

I used to cringe when I heard people say "I dry loot because thats whats done to me" and I used to say "Yeah well, dry loot those that dry loot you... but why become that which you hate, to other people as well?"

I light loot... in the hopes that it spreads like a disease, the same way that dry looting did.

I take bandies or regs to keep them out of battle once they res. And I only take other items if its something I need. I never cut up their armor. Why would I? All that does is use up my scissors. LOL

 

[Fusion_Boy3]

I wanna be a good guy!

 

[Kat SP]

<blockquote><hr>

Aeric (and the COF alliance) and Castor ... as well as Shad (and TnT) really got what we were going for and really had fun with it and with us in game and in the RP threads that accompanied the whole storyline here

[/ QUOTE ]

While TnT has a bit of a storyline that defines who we are and to some extent, our playstyle, as a group, we [TnT] don't really consider ourselves roleplayers. There are a few who enjoy it to some extent and there are others, like myself who like the type of roleplay that surrounded the war with WAKA. I find it difficult to roleplay in game, but I do enjoy the opportunity to build a story around what we are doing in game. I thought the RP thread you started was great and many of us enjoyed adding to it and participating.

<blockquote><hr>

The way that whole RP war ended ... and I am sure some people here are not privvy to some of the complaining that went on ... I think I am permenantly soured to ever trying any RP ever again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly hope the latter isn't true. The WAKA War was one of the most fun times I have ever had in game. I am aware of the "drama" that you are referring to. TnT had a bit of its own to deal with during that time which put a bit of a damper on the whole thing.

I think trying to hammer out too many "rules" of engagement can sometimes be detrimental to the entire effort, especially when it comes to larger guilds and alliances where so many players and playstyles come into play. One thing I have learned recently is that, as hard as we try, it is impossible to please everyone 100% of the time. Reaching that conclusion and accepting it has done wonders for my game and fun. We all have different ideas of fun. I am more than willing to try and make it fun for everyone, but those who don't want to have fun with me can go find their own. I won't be letting drama ruin my game in the future.

Regardless, we [TnT] certainly appreciated your efforts. I also agree that the battle you refered to was by far, one of the most fun nights I've had in a long time! Would love to do it again!

 

[imported_Castor]

I still stand by my point that the RP here has skewed so far to the elitist category and a trammel mentality, that it is just as bad, if not worse than a production shard.

And once again i point to that waka rp thread. Yasou touched on it with Ginsu's guild and spyderbite's guild. THEY got the point of the RP and embraced it. They added to the RP via stories on the board, and fights in the field. They understood that the RP was not an absolute, but a vehichle for entertainment, to set the stage and allow maybe normally non agressive players (pvmers) participate in pvp, without the fear of "turning red". Giving them a reason to fight, instead of the random pking. And because of that "reason", they did not have to worry about being known as a pk etc.

They probably did not win one field fight, but i bet they had a good time trying something they normally would not do.

But where was the WC alliance during this time? They were deciding on ground rules, and RoE, what they should do and who did what, and most of all, maybe not participating in it because this was just Waka being 'griefers'.
and the event was just set up so they could pk. Well no [censored], of course that was the point, to foster meaningful pvp/pk, and the fact they put the shard on notice via rp, was a bonus. For a shard which prides itself on its maturity, it was such an immature, narrow minded stance, it made me embarrassed to be part of the WC at that time. Truly it did.

RP is not just story nights, it is not just "fun/no loot wars", it is what you make of it. And just because it is RP, does not mean it necessarily needs to be 100% nice all of the time, especially when you have antagonizing parties on both sides posting on the boards etc, and when things like that happen, you roll with it if you are a true RPer, not take your football and go home like some did, because it did not "fit" within the ideals of what people thought RP should be.

Getting Pked or Looted is not "grief play", as some folks here like to believe. This is siege, it is supposed to be hard, and the victor of the battles goes the spoils. Plain and simple

I think that at least 30% of the shard does not understand that fact and they should not be playing here to begin with, but should be on a production shard, in trammel somewhere. I think that everytime i see a crying thread about a vmp gank and what ****ty rpers they are. Guess what, vmp has always been that way since day 1, they play pure pks, plain and simple, and there is nothing wrong with that. Do i like it when i am fighting 1 and 6 pop up to join the fight, hell no, but i wont post a thread crying about it. Because that is what they do, plain and simple. They pk, they raid, they fight.

And the irony is, people hold the Orcs to such high regards and standards, and put vmp down every chance they get, yet the Orcs drylooted/mount killed me every single time, the undead followed my ghost to the red healer so they could rezkill me, even if the red healer was 7 screens away and there was no way i would rejoin a fight, and yet, they are held as good Rpers because of the limitations they put on their initates. In some aspects, they were no better than vmp/and sometimes worse in the way i was treated by them.

RP is not just Good/Evil and it is certainly not black &amp; white with how you do it, like 100% of the time like Py, or some of the time like me. RP is what your imagination can think up and should be embraced at all levels, no matter what it is, whether you are rping a justice knight, an evil vampire, a silly zento dog catcher, a story teller, a mercenary, or Ibichi's husband or some such. And it should be embraced no matter what the skill of the participant, until the shard does that, there will be no meaningful widespread rp.

 

[Ginsu-SP]

AMEN Brother Castor!

Very well said.

Cheers!

 

[Yasou Wakayama]

Applauds Castor ... well said friend.

 

[Ibichi_Wakayama]

I have stayed out of this thread and most other serious threads lately. But I have to say Castor what you have said is so very true and I don't think anyone could say it better.

Thank you for doing it.

No one has any idea how hard we worked to have some fun wars and how one guild had me pulling my hair out trying to please them and still not succeeding. I can not blame Yasou for not wanting to do anything again. Why do so only to be trashed for it? I have not seen another person in the two years we have been here work so hard to try to make some fun times for the whole shard.

Again Castor great post.

 

[Dawn/Kaisa]

Well said Rykus I agree with this and the other post you made in this thread 100% and if having these views makes me a horrible elitist rper well then so be it!!

 

[Yasou Wakayama]

and Kat ... glad you had fun ... you know that if you guys ever want to do something again all you need to do is pigeon me ... we will gladly lay waste to your snowy haven ... or come to help you against a more "hated" enemy.

 

[Dawn/Kaisa]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Morning Ginsu,

You got me going with that post, I had to reply

I'd like to clarify the categories, as I see them, by what you refer to 'good' and 'evil'. I see four categories.

Good - roleplayers who roleplay the good guys (KSS)
Evil - roleplayers who roleplay the bad guys (Orc.)
PKs - (blue or red) non-roleplayers who generally play aggressively or antagonistically (OTF)
Blues - non-roleplayers who generally play a passive or pacifistic game (DTA)

To support my own roleplay, I simply convert the PKs into 'evil' afflicted with madness (The Tongue of Discord) since they speak in gibberish (OOC and swearing), and convert the non-aggressive 'Blues' to neutral 'citizens' - so long as they don't commit crimes, they retain a neutral status.

Why should a non-roleplaying aggressive type want to play a 'good guy'? If the desire for good does not come from within the personality of the player, then playing 'good' would only seem like a restriction on their actions, a set of 'rules'. If the desire to do good comes from the personality of the player, then it is a natural thing, and it is equally natural to despise acts of 'evil' on those who are 'good' or 'neutral'.

Roleplaying is a way of playing to benefit others. You have to first have the desire to benefit others.

So, in OOC terms, I classify 'good' as altruistic behaviour, and 'evil' as negative, aggressive, selfish behaviour. Not at all the same thing as rp good and evil. Ingame, I might not attack someone whose OOC actions I find repulsive, though I might certainly want them to commit a crime so I can attack them ingame, my character's roleplay will not allow it. Similarly, I have had many many friends roleplaying evil ingame, but my character would not stay his hand just to spare them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I quote Py, because I agree with the categorizations he posted, and I agree that roleplay is playing to benefit others.

The latter, I believe, is the primary reason most roleplayers in the past have tried to work out RoEs. Or in the absence of the ability to do that, enforce rules upon themselves hoping that others would follow suit. Some things, like loot and reskilling are almost always a part of those (attempted) agreements. The reason being is simple. If your goal is to make fun for others, thereby making fun for yourself, the fun lies in the why. The how. It doesn't lie in the what. Why did you fight? How did the conflict start? When a person is looted, it becomes a matter of 'what did I get from the fight. In doing that, now you have the issue of the enemy losing something. The loss may be great. Therefore the encounter has soured.

In a truly mutual role play encounter, you shouldn't be worried about the what. The purpose of RoEs is to take that worry away. Yes, in a truly mutual RP community, it shouldn't be necessary. But there are always new joins to the guilds. There is always outside interference. The true essence of the RoE is not 100% compliance with it. It is the spirit of being willing to take the step and agree to one. To be willing to work with your 'enemy' behind the scenes and at some level agree to what will make the encounters sour. And then attempting to not do so.

Without a firm agreement, there is always someone who gets upset at dying. There is always someone who is looted of something they didn't expect to loot. There is always someone attacked in a place they didnt feel they should be attacked. No matter how much they say they don't care about being looted or being killed, EVERYONE has a catalyst that upsets them. Some don't let it out openly, some do. But everyone gets upset. In doing so, the encounter is soured. Therefore the fun isn't mutual. Therefore the spirit of the RP is lost.

How in depth the agreement goes is entirely up to the partys involved. Again, it's all a matter of trying to make that agreement and working to uphold it.

Reading all the reasons posted here as to why there is no RP, I believe almost all of them are right. One stands out most for me though. That is the lack of people willing to truly roleplay the bad guy, while trying to make fun for their enemies. The orcs and undead did a great job of doing so. DT did a fair job. VMP even once did a good job. LICH tried, but sadly never had a huge presence. I think the best in the history of the Shard were the Ta'Kier back in the hero/evil days. But who now plays evil and makes an honest effort to make fun for their enemies. By fun, I mean mutual enjoyment, where you can talk to each other over ICQ or the like and say: That was a blast!

The event with Waka had promise, but not all of them partook in the spirit of fun for all. They self proclaim that they are only looking to make fun for themselves. That just doesn't work. When something isn't fun for a person, they're prone to respond in kind, or leave. Neither of which promotes further interaction. We had fun fights, but we also had fights that weren't fun. Maybe we didn't always respond in the best manner, but what do you expect. We're human. It takes two sides cooperating to make the best fun for all.

If there are no bad guys to RP with, what incentive is there for the good guys? Altruism only goes so far, when you're spit in the face at every turn. When any event even remotely RP'd is raided and griefed by those who only think of their own fun/profit. What incentive is there to carry on a conversation with someone, only to have 3 of their friends pop out of hiding, kill you, loot you and walk off laughing and bragging about the kill?

Regarding the question as to why people are afraid to war. I'll answer for myself and myself alone. I'm not 'afraid' to war. I'm not afraid to fight. The reason I don't often wish to war is because those who would want to war don't want to do so to make mutual fun, they want to do so for their own profit and fun. If someone wants to war me just so they can find more places to kill me and take my loot, they can wait in line. If they truly just want to kill me, I can be found outside of town far more often than inside it. Kill me, take the count, go red if you will and accept any consequences of such. If someone wants to war me so that we can have enjoyable fights, I'm happy to talk. See above for that that means though.

I'm not all knowing by any means though. I don't have an answer to how to fix the current situation. Like most posting here, I'm also frustated with the lack of RP. I do know that I'm willing to talk with and work with any guild or group willing to try to work out differences. I can try to help you understand, and work with you towards something more fun for both sides, but the guild would need to be willing to work towards that mutual fun, and commit to any agreements made to such. If you don't feel you can work with me, try talking to others in the community. Though ALL have slipped from true RP to some extent or another, I believe ALL are wishing RP would come back.

I do know that if nothing changes somehow, a thread in this same spirit will appear again in a year or so...and the year after that, and the year after that... The only way it'll change though is through work.

[/ QUOTE ]



*nods* And I notice everyone seems to be pointing the finger at guilds like the WC claiming they ruined the event and so forth and they are the reason the whole thing went bad. But really WAKA is to blame too..like Grot said many of them were just in it for themselves..they didnlt give a crap whether the rest of the shard liked it or not so sorry if I donlt feel terribly sorry for WAKA right now. I do feel bad that Yasou probably wonlt try something like that again..but people need to look at themselves and their comrades and so forth FIRST before they go blaming issues on other people. It is easy to blame things on other people much harder *and I have a hard time with this at well sometimes* to admit that you might have some fault in a situation too

. Anyway..that is all I have to say carry on everyone.

 

[Guest]

Ibichi,

Actually some people, even individuals with limited resources, have worked really hard in the past 2 years, to come up with some shard wide events for everyone to have fun in some fashion, only to have the ideas shredded at conception because everyone wanted things "their way" or if the event actually managed to rise in any form from the ashes of the planning stages, it was griefed to extinction by those who can't practice any self restraint whatsoever in the name of "being true to their playstyle". I personally have determined that if I have an idea in the future, I will implement it as I see fit, and notify/invite whom I choose, and deal with "variable" results the best I can.

I applauded the efforts of the WAKA group to try to share the fun, not to mention the considerable resources your group was willing to dedicate to the scenario, and felt bad for the uneven reception by the shard population.

And while I know there is a more formal RP style, mostly born out of the D&amp;D game genre, I agree with the idea that roleplaying is what you make of it - playing a role. A guild that has formal rules regarding roleplay has every right to enforce the rules within their own group, but interaction outside the group is by necessity going to have to follow different methods. I know there are people who use "roleplay" as an excuse for bad behavior (and no, I am not just talking about PKs), and I avoid those people. I personally do not, and will not, shun those who are "terrible" RPers from the classic point of view. And if I am playing a role, and encounter someone who is obviously confused, I drop it for the sake of interaction, until they understand and are comfortable with the idea. I have found that often spurs people who never considered "roleplaying" into coming up with something on their own. Even if it only lasts the duration of the time they spend with me, the fun, and the RP is no less valid to me.

I hope WAKA will continue to come up with fun scenarios, and share them. Perhaps in future, though, you can simply say this is what we are doing, join us if you like, and add your own contributions if you are inclined, but don't tell us how to run our scenario.

-Skylark

 

[Ginsu-SP]

<blockquote><hr>


*nods* And I notice everyone seems to be pointing the finger at guilds like the WC claiming they ruined the event and so forth and they are the reason the whole thing went bad. But really WAKA is to blame too..like Grot said many of them were just in it for themselves..they didnlt give a crap whether the rest of the shard liked it or not so sorry if I donlt feel terribly sorry for WAKA right now. I do feel bad that Yasou probably wonlt try something like that again..but people need to look at themselves and their comrades and so forth FIRST before they go blaming issues on other people. It is easy to blame things on other people much harder *and I have a hard time with this at well sometimes* to admit that you might have some fault in a situation too

. Anyway..that is all I have to say carry on everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is just incorrect.

WAKA provided a very nice storyline, and a strong group of PvPrs to back it up.
If WAKA wanted to grief people, they had every opportunity to do so against
our alliance, and they conducted themselves very honorably... giving us chances
to win when they did not have to, light looting or not looting.

Those who joined into the war in a spirit of fun, and added to the story were
very pleased. If you want to see what the WC's attitude was during that...
check out the story thread. If anyone ever posted garbage like that in a WC
RP story thread... I'm sure there would have been a trial or something. (If there
ever was such a thing as a WC story thread)

If you are getting "griefed"... you might take your own advice and look at yourself.
And ask yourself "am I being a pompous jackass, stick in the mud? is that why this
is happening to me?"

Cheers!

 

[Dawn/Kaisa]

YOU might not have been griefed or treated poorly but many of us WERE. And I did not say ALLL of WAKA griefed or that all of them were out to grief some of them were good sports and tried to make the event fun for everyone when they were around. Ibichi and Yasou were a good example of this but when they werent around there was no telling how WAKA would act..sorry just saying it how it is. And I will have to reread the thread but sorry if I didn;t see this horrible display by the WC everyone is talking about. Maybe they didn;t post on the story thread as much as we all would have liked that doesn;t mean they are horrible people

.

 

[Yasou Wakayama]

<blockquote><hr>

*nods* And I notice everyone seems to be pointing the finger at guilds like the WC claiming they ruined the event and so forth and they are the reason the whole thing went bad. But really WAKA is to blame too..like Grot said many of them were just in it for themselves..they didnlt give a crap whether the rest of the shard liked it or not so sorry if I donlt feel terribly sorry for WAKA right now. I do feel bad that Yasou probably wonlt try something like that again..but people need to look at themselves and their comrades and so forth FIRST before they go blaming issues on other people. It is easy to blame things on other people much harder *and I have a hard time with this at well sometimes* to admit that you might have some fault in a situation too

. Anyway..that is all I have to say carry on everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense Kaisa - but we did not give a crap whether the shard liked what we were doing or not. We as a guild had decided to go in a direction - joining TB - perhaps killing some people we hadn't before. I decided to write a story to explain why we would be going in this direction ... some people ran with it and contributed very well to the RP story here on stratics. As the debate raged on our private forums - no one was interested in preplanned ROE - if their was courtesy on the battlefield so be it - if not - oh well.

Certain guilds were not interested in the RP at all (VmP and SMG) we ended up warring them also and believe me there was no ROE with those guilds ... I have done two events for siege/new players/WAKA ... that "war event" was for WAKA and the RP thread was a way to INFORM the shard what we were doing and to hopefully get some guys to go orange that wouldn't otherwise ... some guilds like TnT and the COF alliance seemed to really enjoy it despite the fact that the kill counts were not in their favor ... others did not and were very vocal about it - of well. Our playstle has not changed since the war ...we fight and kill pretty much whomever ... some people still get treated civilly - some do not.

In all honesty I see no point in doing events for siege - that is what our missing in action EM is for - if she is not coming back perhaps I would be allowed to take her place ... once the museum is finished that will be there for siege ... thats about it for me.

 

[Mandolin]

I can't speak of the last war with Waka.. but, the during the prior one we (CoF) had requested very few conditions if any at all. Our fights with Waka were alot of fun and they were very honorable with us after taking care of us in short order. Honorable to the point of backing off a few members during a fight due to our small numbers making it a more fair fight.

I for one, would be very dissapointed if Yasou does not propose another RP event such as the Yama/Waka reunification or Wars. They bring people together from across the shard that may normally not interact, to either fight together or against each other. Bravo, Yasou. Don't ever get discouraged!

 

[Dawn/Kaisa]

I know..I wasn;t saying that I expected you too. Just saying how I feel will say I did have fun for the most part but those that might have called WAKA out on some of their actions or decided not to participate for whatever reason shouldn;t be bashed because of that.

edited: took one line out cause after reading it I realized it was not apporiate and did nothign to further the discussion

 

[Guest]

I think our only request was that the women's skirts not be looted. haha. And, they werent. I know I died with my ice white cloth skirt on and I came back to my corpse after the area had cleared and indeed, my skirt was there.